[AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term , for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1 st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The network I bought is a prime example of using Canopy doesn't guarantee success. Omnis everywhere, Omnis feeding SMs with other omnis behind them. $12k backhauls behind a backhaul link with a -87 signal. Generic (not even Linksys) networking gear, hubs, etc. But hey, he used Cyclones, PTP400s and Redlines so it was good, right? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:15:38 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. From: Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term , for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever. People hate the duopoly. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Four GPS ePMPs with 90* sectors is $2,260. One PMP450 AP without antenna is $2,316. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 11:23:00 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Huh? are you putting the cheap connectorized CPE on them or the $500 gps sync AP on them? Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 12:04 PM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: The four sectors are still cheaper than one 450 on an omni. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:41:32 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which problem is easier to fix? You deployed an omni and take rate has been phenomenal and you need more capacity? Or you deployed 4 sectors and only have 5 subs between them? Well, I guess the second one, if the answer is decommission the site and redeploy the equipment. From: Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Afford/justify. Either way I pretty much agree. And I was an omni fanboy. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1. ePMP latency starts to go up quickly once you have more than 10 clients on an AP. Once you get over 20 clients the latency is pretty much 25-30 ms. Cambium was honest about this at the road tour and they noted if you want the best latency to stick with the 450. 2. Sync between the two platforms is not there yet. If you have adjacent towers on the different platforms that can see each other you won't have sync. 3. No remote spectrum analyzer for clients. This is HUGE for when the clients fire up their wireless camera and baby monitors and trash the whole spectrum. 4.No burst bucket on CPE's 5.EPMP Interface is SLOWWW. Cambium explained at the tour they were offloading alot of processing power to the PC you are viewing the interface with and i can't be taking a quad core machine up a tower to work on these radios and do site surveys. I am working with a Panasonic Toughbook and takes FOREVER to log into the EPMP radios. 6. Fore some reason site surveys are a PITA with ePMP. Think its a combination of many factors here... slow interface one of them... 7. EPMP in 5ghz DFS band has really low power output. Something like 13-14db. When using an
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
On any network, sync is a better rf deployment solution than non sync. Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 3:23 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I think many of you have gotten in a rut. You defend GPS sync like you don't know how operators can operate or compete without it, which is pretty lazy problem solving. It can be done, is being done, and will continue to be done. GPS sync is a very value tool. In some areas, it is virtually required to operate. In ours, it isn't. There are often may ways to skin the cat. I'm not saying the PMP450 and others aren't great products, they are. Great products can often be expensive though, and that drain on cashflow can often be harmful to small businesses if there is another method to solve a problem. Sometimes it's more efficient to use a shovel, not an excavator. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 10:15 PM, George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af wrote: But I think you missed Mark's point, or maybe part of it. Synchronizing APs at the same site is also a very big benefit, not just geographic/multi-site. On 10/19/2014 12:07 AM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
Go AE Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 3:05 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Those horns looks sexy!!! Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever.People hate the duopoly. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.commailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Energy domes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_dome From: Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:17 AM To: mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Those horns looks sexy!!! Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever.People hate the duopoly. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
I've been beating this drum for a while. Mikrotik is the only one that does. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:08:05 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable? It's going to have to happen the other way around, radio manufacturers are going to have to start making APs with SFP cages and then you might start seeing lower cost options when it comes to hybrid cable. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox /blockquote /blockquote
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
Mike do you know if th new cambium 455 has them? Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:30 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've been beating this drum for a while. Mikrotik is the only one that does. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:08:05 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable? It's going to have to happen the other way around, radio manufacturers are going to have to start making APs with SFP cages and then you might start seeing lower cost options when it comes to hybrid cable. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailboxhttps://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailboxhttps://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
GPON technology is not housed in the SFP module as that is only the laser and diodes. The timing smarts central to GPON is on the board. Not saying Mikrotik couldn’t do it just that it is not a compatibility with a plug-in thing. I don’t know if GPON has been boiled down to a chipset and reference design yet. If so, then it could happen but it still wouldn’t be a plug-in. 10G XGPON 1 and 2 is not likely to be popular until 2016 or so. And then it will still need considerable time to see the prices of the new lasers to come down far enough to make it cost effective for the ONT. So you have a long wait for that one. PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:04 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when? How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
Easier to do 10g bidirectional AE Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:54 AM, Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: GPON technology is not housed in the SFP module as that is only the laser and diodes. The timing smarts central to GPON is on the board. Not saying Mikrotik couldn’t do it just that it is not a compatibility with a plug-in thing. I don’t know if GPON has been boiled down to a chipset and reference design yet. If so, then it could happen but it still wouldn’t be a plug-in. 10G XGPON 1 and 2 is not likely to be popular until 2016 or so. And then it will still need considerable time to see the prices of the new lasers to come down far enough to make it cost effective for the ONT. So you have a long wait for that one. PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:04 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when? How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’ve lost track of what I can and can’t say anymore. “I say Nothing, I jsee Nothing! -Sergeant Schultz From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:28 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I was told that at the booth, so I'm assuming its clear. There's also a hint to that in the specs on the web site, Polarization4 Panels, Alternating Polarization. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:07:54 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Odd thing is, they could have done a 4 patch array out of PCB material, had the same gain and pattern for much less money, weight, wind loading and loading moment. If they want sexy they should have done a dielguide/rod antenna. That would have given more gain and been truly “sexy”. From: Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:17 AM To: mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Those horns looks sexy!!! Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- From: Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever.People hate the duopoly. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Or this - From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:48 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Odd thing is, they could have done a 4 patch array out of PCB material, had the same gain and pattern for much less money, weight, wind loading and loading moment. If they want sexy they should have done a dielguide/rod antenna. That would have given more gain and been truly “sexy”. From: Gino Villarini via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:17 AM To: mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Those horns looks sexy!!! Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever.People hate the duopoly. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
There are actually multiple vendors selling SFP modules with built in EPON/GPON functionality that present themselves as a normal SFP module. I don't know of any for XGPON or any of the newer standards though. http://www.finisar.com/sites/default/files/pdf/FTGN2117P2CUN_FTGN2117P2TUN_GPON_Stick_Pluggable_SFP_ONU_Product_Brief_1_2014_V2.pdf http://www.sfp-xfp.com/products/gpon-stick.html http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/H640SFP_20140221220235.pdf Gerard On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com wrote: GPON technology is not housed in the SFP module as that is only the laser and diodes. The timing smarts central to GPON is on the board. Not saying Mikrotik couldn’t do it just that it is not a compatibility with a plug-in thing. I don’t know if GPON has been boiled down to a chipset and reference design yet. If so, then it could happen but it still wouldn’t be a plug-in. 10G XGPON 1 and 2 is not likely to be popular until 2016 or so. And then it will still need considerable time to see the prices of the new lasers to come down far enough to make it cost effective for the ONT. So you have a long wait for that one. PC Blaze Broadband *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *TJ Trout via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:04 AM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when? How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Its not a matter of what you use but how it was ratcheted to work. It may not have been built for what needs are for today but maybe 8 yrs ago it was a running system. If I had to use what you listed I could make it work with todays demands but it would not have the range. I have seen more than 5 wisps come and go here all using 802.11 based systems and failed but I dont think it was because of the radio type but just lack of knowledge on how to really deploy them in way that worked for them. On 10/19/2014 7:42 AM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: The network I bought is a prime example of using Canopy doesn't guarantee success. Omnis everywhere, Omnis feeding SMs with other omnis behind them. $12k backhauls behind a backhaul link with a -87 signal. Generic (not even Linksys) networking gear, hubs, etc. But hey, he used Cyclones, PTP400s and Redlines so it was good, right? - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 1:15:38 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons But there’s the stages of where WISPs have historically gotten their customers: 1) People getting Internet for the first time 2) People switching from dialup 3) People switching from DSL 4) People switching from satellite 5) People switching from mobile hotspots 6) People switching from other WISPs who did things on the cheap I guess stage 7 would be deploy fiber and drink everybody’s milkshake. *From:* Josh Reynolds via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 12:27 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You just hit the nail on the head why wehave never considered deploying 450 (and similar)in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNTor similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com http://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Afmailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
Wow, I wonder if they have ap notes. From: Gerard Dupont III via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:40 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when? There are actually multiple vendors selling SFP modules with built in EPON/GPON functionality that present themselves as a normal SFP module. I don't know of any for XGPON or any of the newer standards though. http://www.finisar.com/sites/default/files/pdf/FTGN2117P2CUN_FTGN2117P2TUN_GPON_Stick_Pluggable_SFP_ONU_Product_Brief_1_2014_V2.pdf http://www.sfp-xfp.com/products/gpon-stick.html http://www.dasannetworks.com/product_images/H640SFP_20140221220235.pdf Gerard On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 10:53 AM, Paul Conlin via Af af@afmug.com wrote: GPON technology is not housed in the SFP module as that is only the laser and diodes. The timing smarts central to GPON is on the board. Not saying Mikrotik couldn’t do it just that it is not a compatibility with a plug-in thing. I don’t know if GPON has been boiled down to a chipset and reference design yet. If so, then it could happen but it still wouldn’t be a plug-in. 10G XGPON 1 and 2 is not likely to be popular until 2016 or so. And then it will still need considerable time to see the prices of the new lasers to come down far enough to make it cost effective for the ONT. So you have a long wait for that one. PC Blaze Broadband From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of TJ Trout via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 3:04 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when? How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
[AFMUG] does SM ext gain setting matter in 5.7 GHz?
At the AP it matters because of regulatory limits on EIRP. In DFS frequencies it matters for the DFS algorithm. But if you forget to set the external gain on a 5.7 GHz SM when you add an external antenna or reflector dish, does it matter? Is there something in the performance that is affected?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
No argument but I don't think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I'm just saying.. J Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn't be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don't. It's like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don't experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can't. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don't have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn't worth it. This is why I don't like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I'd have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I'm sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
No argument but I don't think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I'm just saying.. J Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn't be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don't. It's like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don't experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can't. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don't have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn't worth it. This is why I don't like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I'd have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I'm sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I'm assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
+1 On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Gino Villarini via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Go AE Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 3:05 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); wrote: How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I think you have my intentions mistaken, Ken. I support sync. I ask for it of every manufacturer. I've been asking MT for it for 10 years. Sync is good. I do not support an omni 450 being better than ePMP with sectors. Sure, the non-sync guys have things to learn, but I think sync has masked some sync operators lack of RF knowledge (sectors, reduced beamwidth, reduced projected interference, etc.) - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:26:15 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Of the Mu-MIMO vendors I know of (just one), they still use sync. ePMP does use sync. Yes, I can't wait for more Mu-MIMO systems (and the one actually shipping) and the underlying beamforming (and null forming) that they bring to the table. However, all of those systems are made better by sync. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:15:59 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons No argument but I don’t think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I’m just saying…… J Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I'm not in downtown Chicago, but I am in Chicago's suburbs (in addition to rural areas). I can't imagine the density is that much different unless you have a higher ratio of townhomes\duplexes\apartments to single family homes. I don't disagree that smaller and smaller cells are better for SNR and therefore throughput. The only modern platforms with smart antennas also have sync. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30:00 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar ) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site
Re: [AFMUG] does SM ext gain setting matter in 5.7 GHz?
We tested it on 450 and saw no significant difference setting the gain. However as a good practice all techs are required to set the value during an install, in case we ever switch to a 5.4 frequency while dealing with interference. Matthew Jenkins SmarterBroadband m...@sbbinc.net 530.272.4000 On 10/19/2014 10:09 AM, Ken Hohhof via Af wrote: At the AP it matters because of regulatory limits on EIRP. In DFS frequencies it matters for the DFS algorithm. But if you forget to set the external gain on a 5.7 GHz SM when you add an external antenna or reflector dish, does it matter? Is there something in the performance that is affected?
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
Forrest, Actually the new PON's designs are doing CWDN over PON which is essentially AE just over individual waves to each sub vs. single fiber to each sub. So the technology is catching ETA was stated around 1 to 2 years before it is available. Sincerely, Jason Pond Grizzly Internet, Inc On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 11:20 AM, Forrest Christian (List Account) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: To slightly hijack this. What is the fascination with gpon? From what I can tell, cabling a plant for active is dirt cheap and is future proof. Gpon isn't. On Oct 19, 2014 1:04 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ?
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
All those afro mentioned benefit from sync. Mimosa, the latest and greatest pmp (on spec sheet) has GPS sync Canopy, 3G, 4G, Wimax, LTE... All use sync for a reason Lots WiFi based suppliers are moving to sync.. No way around it, FCC should have mandated a form of sync for unlicensed Just imagine how much spectrum we would have available if WiFi had sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 1:22 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: No argument but I don’t think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP. At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing. I’m just saying…… :) Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Good to point Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn’t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don’t. It’s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don’t experience traffic jams. But is that because other people carpool? You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band. Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can’t. So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself. Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. From: Rory Conaway via Afmailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yeah, competing with all the consumer stuff has to be a challenge. I had an interesting experience with the Boy Scout campout this weekend. It’s in a rural county park, so not competing with consumer WiFi. I put up a dished 5.7 SM to our tower, then used 5.4 GHz PTP Nanostation links to feed each picnic shelter, with a Mikrotik 951 in each picnic shelter, each on a separate 2.4 channel. Except then the ham radio guys pull up their RV and fire up their HP Bullet and omni fed by a Cradlepoint router with a cellular modem to show me how much better their solution was. So they probably wiped out 1 or 2 of the channels I was using. Yikes. From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
Planet has a switch with 24 SFP ports, or if you don't mind spending more per port there are a few companies out there that do 48 lasers in 1u using dual bidi SFPs (Calix being one option). Still not the density of GPON, but better than your example. On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Louis Arsenault via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Our reason for looking into it is heat and power. We may have 300+ customer coming into a single cabinet. We will be laying the fiber for active but if we can save on space by not needing 300+ sfp ports plus battery backup for all those switches. We are looking at the Planet switch which has 16 SFP ports. If we use GPON that is 16 SFP ports * 32 customers per port = 512 customers instead of only 16 customers per switch! To do active we would need 19 switches! -Louis On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) via Af af@afmug.com javascript:; wrote: To slightly hijack this. What is the fascination with gpon? From what I can tell, cabling a plant for active is dirt cheap and is future proof. Gpon isn't. On Oct 19, 2014 1:04 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com javascript:; wrote: How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ? -- -Louis NTInet O: 803-533-1660 X 207 C: 803-997-0004
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I've been doing micropops for about 7+ years now. I mainly started using that model because it enabled me to reach places that I otherwise couldn't. The added SNR and corresponding throughput is a nice side effect though. Customers also like smaller antennas/radios and the mounts that go with them as well. On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm not in downtown Chicago, but I am in Chicago's suburbs (in addition to rural areas). I can't imagine the density is that much different unless you have a higher ratio of townhomes\duplexes\apartments to single family homes. I don't disagree that smaller and smaller cells are better for SNR and therefore throughput. The only modern platforms with smart antennas also have sync. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:30:00 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I think part of our difference here is environment. I’m in urban areas where 12 other operators aren’t my biggest issues. It’s that every AP I have has 300 houses or more in every direction that have indoor APs, Dish Network whole house video, etc… So, having an AP that has more dynamic features for that is more valuable than GPS to me. I know Cambium is touting that feature on the ePMP but it’s just not as important for a microcell. Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:19 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Sync reduces self-interference, whether you cooperate with competitors or not. If you sync with some of your competitors, it's better than no competitors. Your environment may be such that you can't reuse frequencies. That's fine. You still reduce self-interference. You make the most of whatever you have. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03:02 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If you don’t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference. When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn’t worth it. This is why I don’t like towers in high-density areas. If I had 12 competitors, I’d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I’m sure is coming. Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable. I think Beam-Forming has more value. Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com -- *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *To: *af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af-boun...@afmug.com');] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM *To:* af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true
[AFMUG] ptp 450 timing
any one tried to get ptp 450 working through a packetflux? I see when looking under sync status it says Power Port Not Supportedits going to really suck if I cant get this working thanks
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
Ah, my fiber enclosures all have either A/C or thermoelectric cooling, so I haven't worried too much about that. The non hardened planet still specs up to 122 degrees as well, and I believe the Occam blade that I have deployed is even higher. On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Louis Arsenault via Af af@afmug.com wrote: The 16 port one is hardened. We can expect it to survive better in a fan vented enclosure. All the other sfp switches I have found are pretty much for inside an air conditioned enclosure. -Louis On Oct 19, 2014 2:18 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); wrote: Planet has a switch with 24 SFP ports, or if you don't mind spending more per port there are a few companies out there that do 48 lasers in 1u using dual bidi SFPs (Calix being one option). Still not the density of GPON, but better than your example. On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Louis Arsenault via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); wrote: Our reason for looking into it is heat and power. We may have 300+ customer coming into a single cabinet. We will be laying the fiber for active but if we can save on space by not needing 300+ sfp ports plus battery backup for all those switches. We are looking at the Planet switch which has 16 SFP ports. If we use GPON that is 16 SFP ports * 32 customers per port = 512 customers instead of only 16 customers per switch! To do active we would need 19 switches! -Louis On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: To slightly hijack this. What is the fascination with gpon? From what I can tell, cabling a plant for active is dirt cheap and is future proof. Gpon isn't. On Oct 19, 2014 1:04 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ? -- -Louis NTInet O: 803-533-1660 X 207 C: 803-997-0004
Re: [AFMUG] ptp 450 timing
It's just an SM, there are no sync over power components, timing port only. On 10/19/2014 2:32 PM, Ryan Mano via Af wrote: any one tried to get ptp 450 working through a packetflux? I see when looking under sync status it says Power Port Not Supportedits going to really suck if I cant get this working thanks
Re: [AFMUG] OT Language practice
Hablo como un niño de dos años. From: Jaime Solorza via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:05 PM To: Animal Farm Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT Language practice What kind of Spanish?I am sure Gino can a spin a phrase I will not understand and same for me. es la pura neta! Jaime Solorza Wireless Systems Architect 915-861-1390 On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:08 PM, Chuck McCown via Af af@afmug.com wrote: If you have ever thought about buying Rosetta stone (or have bought it, like me but lost interest) check out Duolingo. I play with this every day and compete with my wife on it. I love this free program. Not sure how they are for beginners, my wife and I are conversational in Spanish. I wonder how they make money... www.duolingo.com Spanish French German Italian Portuguese Dutch – beta Irish – beta Danish – beta Below, varying states of completion. Swedish Hungarian Turkish Russian Polish Romanian
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
I have been talking with Martin JT quite a bit. They are now working on a version of the radio adapters for the inner-feed that are shielded. I also asked to see if we could get some slightly larger gain models, say 3-5db more. I was told it probably would make the horns too big, but that they would go back and check. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 06:17 AM, Gino Villarini via Af wrote: Those horns looks sexy!!! Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever. People hate the duopoly. ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com mailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
The website describes it pretty well Rory. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:07 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: Yea, didn’t know if that information violated the old NDA thing Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:35 AM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons It eliminates the need for sectors... by having four sectors in one enclosure. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 12:48:06 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons We keep our residential home deployments down to about ½ mile or less. We figure that’s good for about 50 users with 20MHz channels with on Rocket 5Ms and about 60-70Mbps capacity. I might change to Ubiquiti Rocket AC radios when they get a stable PTMP firmware assuming it’s done by early next year. If it’s delayed further than 1^st quarter, I will probably wait to evaluate Mimosa’s A5-360 . That bad boy can support up to 1Gbps with 802.11ac clients which pretty much eliminates the need for sectors unless you have a down-tilt or range issue. Even the gain on that antenna is 18dBi which is more than sufficient for DFS channels. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds via Af *Sent:* Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:08 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons If we lived in an area where things were flat, you might be right. We're full of hills and valleys, mountains and glaciers. ... but we're not flat, and Rory is doing similar things in his environment by using low-to-the-ground microcells and using the residential structures to create an urban canyon effect. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 01:52 PM, Mark Radabaugh via Af wrote: And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub densityor at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal.
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.comhttp://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.comhttp://www.wavelinc.com/ tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me Thanks On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 11:20 PM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.commailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I started the spring deploying 450 in 2.4ghz, 5ghz, and 3.65ghz and then middle of the summer deciding i had totry some ePMP because the cost was so low I couldn't resist I can say now that I am fairly certain I will probably stick with the 450. There are many small reasons that when I considered them all i came to this conclusion. Here are my reasons: 1.
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Need to get something out... Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long. Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat (cross-vendor softwarewith performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors have had working beamforming for several years now(both TX and antenna based). These three are currently working on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the ePMP product, and othersby anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond everybody else. I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to the home, with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind thatin PtMP, depending on various factors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based stuff. There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will be manufacturing their own radios soon as well. Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com
Re: [AFMUG] Gpon or 10g-pon sfp...when?
The mgsw-28240f is the same temp ratings as the mgsw-24160f but with 24 ports and 4x 10g ports. On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Louis Arsenault via Af af@afmug.com wrote: The 16 port one is hardened. We can expect it to survive better in a fan vented enclosure. All the other sfp switches I have found are pretty much for inside an air conditioned enclosure. -Louis On Oct 19, 2014 2:18 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); wrote: Planet has a switch with 24 SFP ports, or if you don't mind spending more per port there are a few companies out there that do 48 lasers in 1u using dual bidi SFPs (Calix being one option). Still not the density of GPON, but better than your example. On Sunday, October 19, 2014, Louis Arsenault via Af af@afmug.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','af@afmug.com'); wrote: Our reason for looking into it is heat and power. We may have 300+ customer coming into a single cabinet. We will be laying the fiber for active but if we can save on space by not needing 300+ sfp ports plus battery backup for all those switches. We are looking at the Planet switch which has 16 SFP ports. If we use GPON that is 16 SFP ports * 32 customers per port = 512 customers instead of only 16 customers per switch! To do active we would need 19 switches! -Louis On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 1:20 PM, Forrest Christian (List Account) via Af af@afmug.com wrote: To slightly hijack this. What is the fascination with gpon? From what I can tell, cabling a plant for active is dirt cheap and is future proof. Gpon isn't. On Oct 19, 2014 1:04 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: How far away are we from seeing a gpon olt sfp module that would be mikrotik compatible? Would be nice to use a ccr 12s and be able to serve hundreds of customers. Seems like we aren't real close though ? -- -Louis NTInet O: 803-533-1660 X 207 C: 803-997-0004 -- Gerard
[AFMUG] FCC NOI for Cellular 24GHz (and a note about 5GHz...)
http://tech.slashdot.org/story/14/10/19/34/gigabit-cellular-networks-could-happen-with-24ghz-spectrum -- Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
Just leave the horn off and aim the horn connection at a reflector. All the gain you want. Send me a radio and I will make a reflector holder for it. From: Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:54 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought I have been talking with Martin JT quite a bit. They are now working on a version of the radio adapters for the inner-feed that are shielded. I also asked to see if we could get some slightly larger gain models, say 3-5db more. I was told it probably would make the horns too big, but that they would go back and check. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 06:17 AM, Gino Villarini via Af wrote: Those horns looks sexy!!! Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever. � �People hate the duopoly. � ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Random thought
The horn does have some modest advantages. Moving to a reflector would remove those advantages completely. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 04:22 PM, Chuck McCown via Af wrote: Just leave the horn off and aim the horn connection at a reflector. All the gain you want. Send me a radio and I will make a reflector holder for it. *From:* Josh Reynolds via Af mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:54 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Random thought I have been talking with Martin JT quite a bit. They are now working on a version of the radio adapters for the inner-feed that are shielded. I also asked to see if we could get some slightly larger gain models, say 3-5db more. I was told it probably would make the horns too big, but that they would go back and check. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 06:17 AM, Gino Villarini via Af wrote: Those horns looks sexy!!! Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 8:52 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Right, but you can't expect any serious penetration with only them. I am considering special plans that only apply to the subdivisions immediately around my suburban water towers. I could get something like the new RF Elements horns and have some crazy downtilt so that my signal doesn't go further out than 2 miles. That high elevation will help out with that much downtilt. Now my fastest two plans are 4 megs for $60 and 10 megs for $100. I've been considering doubling the speed across the board, but I may need to revisit that offering to see how well it stacks up against them. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Tyler Treat via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 10:15:14 AM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Random thought Yea but there will always be a subset of individuals who opt for a third option, be it for reliability, customer service, whatever. � �People hate the duopoly. � ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com mailto:tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 18, 2014, at 10:08 AM, Seth Mattinen via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: On 10/18/14, 7:57 AM, Paul Conlin via Af wrote: Those stupid fast speeds sure do make it harder to get face time with potential customers however. Cable COs are making 25 Mbps the new base. The base is 60 meg here. ~Seth
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
They are setup with ruggedized and weather proof connectors too...We actually got to see them at a UPS Logistics warehouse for Sprint...along with a lot of other things. Regards, Chuck On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:18 AM, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Got a fusion splicer so that would work way more pricey then I expected though — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Chuck Hogg via Af af@afmug.com wrote: So I found out through my Commscope friend that only supplies ATT (lush job), he told me that they are all custom built to order, the price is typically about $5-8/ft depending on size of the copper wire or depending on the amount of fiber. He told me that they don't usually sell it the way we would want it, unterminated, a big roll, etc. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's going to have to happen the other way around, radio manufacturers are going to have to start making APs with SFP cages and then you might start seeing lower cost options when it comes to hybrid cable. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Yes, I saw the spectrum analyzer from the client end as well. The past 24 hours of history. Not sure if it takes the client end into account when picking a channel. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:03:07 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I thin k one of the biggest features there that Mimosa is working on is a drum they haven't even b eat that hard yet... They're work ing on doing the freq uency plan for you. (This is on the website, and in WISPAPALOOZA promo material..) When you have a system that is constantly performing scanning and reporting back to a c ontroller, you get some excellent ideas about what you can deploy and where. You will ge t to the point where you don't actually have to pick a channel anymore , as their system doesn't just know what channels you are using, but it knows the signal levels for the channels you aren't. The biggest concern I ha ve with this though, and I need to ask Larry or somebody, is if they are going to be collecting this info from the stations as well -- this is very important. Hearing the stations is one thing, but remember that's only around 20% or so of your network traffic. It's much more important that the stations have a better SNR to the APs than the other way around. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 10:16 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: No argument but I don�t think the value statement is there, especially with Ubiquiti and ePMP.� At the same time, 802.11ac, MU-MIMO, Beam-forming, and other features in next generation chipsets may change the design models we are now discussing.� I�m just saying�� J � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:44 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � Good to point � Also, to some extent, sync will help you on a environment with lots of noise from nonsynced operators Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini � � On Oct 19, 2014, at 12:27 PM, Ken Hohhof via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I think one point Mike is missing is without the WISPs that use GPS sync sharing frequencies, there wouldn�t be enough spectrum for the WISPs that don�t. � It�s like someone disputing the value of carpooling because they drive solo and don�t experience traffic jams.� But is that because other people carpool? � You experience interference in a band with limited spectrum like 900. 2.4 or 3.65, and survey to find who all is using the band.� Some you can coordinate sync with, others you can�t.� So you call up the WISPs you can sync with, coordinate your frequencies and timing, and let the non-sync guy have a channel to himself.� Which convinces the non-sync guy that the value of GPS sync is a myth. � � From: Rory Conaway via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 11:03 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � If you don�t have 100% cooperation with GPS sync with competitors for various reasons, you will have interference.�� When more beam-forming options start coming out, GPS might have value on the same tower, but little value since the trade-off with reduced throughput isn�t worth it.�� This is why I don�t like towers in high-density areas.� If I had 12 competitors, I�d have micro-cells until the equipment catches up with environment which I�m sure is coming. � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:38 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � You lost me, Rory... - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com � From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:35:08 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Which then makes it not that valuable.� I think Beam-Forming has more value. � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 8:29 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons � Half or more have the same Canopy settings. The rest are 802.11 based with some cooperating and some not responding to anything. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com � From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 10:13:45 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons I�m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? � Rory � From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
You don't have to sync with other vendors or even your competition. It helps, though. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Josh Reynolds via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:28:18 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Need to get something out... Our industry, like many others, doesn't stagnate for long. Right now we're on the edge of a new generation of radio tech, with bitlomat (cross-vendor softwar e with performance gains, gps sync, 802.11ac but down to the PHY layer) ubiquiti (airprism, tdma offloading, *possible* gps sync), and mimosa (too much to list) leading that charge. At least two of those vendors have had working beamforming for several years now (both TX and antenna based). These three are currently workin g on things that are outpacing MikroTik, the ePMP product, and others by anywhere from 1/2 gen to 1 full hardware gen beyond everybody else. I'd guess we're about 1 year off to being able to provide reliable 100Mbps to the home , with 250Mbps (or more) roughly 2-3 years behind that in PtMP, depending on various fa ctors. That said, this is JUST the 802.11ac based stuff. There is at least one vendor up there on that list who will b e manufacturing their own radios soon as well. Vendors will continue to come out with new tech every ~ 3 years. Their tech may be light years ahead of other vendors, and it's very likely they won't play well together in terms of general base tech or GPS sync. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 02:11 PM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: blockquote I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com - Original Message - From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: blockquote I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: blockquote You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don' t think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: blockquote I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: blockquote I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Kurt Fankhauser via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 8:38:14 AM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons TJ, No difference between the 3 different frequencies bands (other than NLOS range) as far as the product itself they are all the same animal. 2.4ghz NLOS is slightly better than 3.65ghhz. They all function the same and have the same expected throughputs per channel width. They all use the same firmware and i love the interface being the same across all 3. The only major difference is the 5ghz is V/H versus slant on the other two. That just translates to the 5ghz omni being ALOT smaller and lighter. There are some places that i wish the 2.4ghz woulda been V/H because of the omni size but overall I am still very happy with the 2.4ghz 450. Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:57 AM, TJ Trout via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Kurt, Any pros and cons on 450 between 2ghz, 3.65 and 5? Any differences at all? Range vs throughput? Obviously 2ghz penetrates better, 3 is licensed and 5 has more spectrum but anything else? All bands are open for me
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com *Sent: *Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Gino Villarini via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM *To:* af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Josh Reynolds via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory *From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Mike Hammett via Af *Sent:* Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM *To:* af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com *From: *Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *To: *af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com *Sent: *Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are deploying omnis (presumably because they can't afford 4 APs. Give me TDMA Atheros with sectors over omnis on anything any day. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Re: [AFMUG] DFS issues
Craig, We have a bunch of the 5.2 APs P9 in the warehouse if you need any. Paul, PDMNet 772-564-6800 -Original Message- From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Craig House via Af Sent: Friday, October 17, 2014 11:22 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: [AFMUG] DFS issues We are starting to see a lot more DFS detections on 5.2 AP's. We never used to have this problem. Recent upgrades to firmware seem to be making this a more sensitive detection. I have one tower tonight with 6 new FSK sectors that are on abcabc layout. The sectors in this layout have radar detection on this tower at various times in the last 20 minutes on both sector c radios and on the second sector B. I am also seeing this happen on towers where we have recently replaced connectorized AP's due to lightining damage where it was not a problem before. we are running 13.1.3 on all of these radios. What are my options here. I cant just stop using 5.2 for APs??? Craig
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
Gino, spill the 455 beans On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Chuck Hogg via Af af@afmug.com wrote: They are setup with ruggedized and weather proof connectors too...We actually got to see them at a UPS Logistics warehouse for Sprint...along with a lot of other things. Regards, Chuck On Sun, Oct 19, 2014 at 12:18 AM, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Got a fusion splicer so that would work way more pricey then I expected though — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Chuck Hogg via Af af@afmug.com wrote: So I found out through my Commscope friend that only supplies ATT (lush job), he told me that they are all custom built to order, the price is typically about $5-8/ft depending on size of the copper wire or depending on the amount of fiber. He told me that they don't usually sell it the way we would want it, unterminated, a big roll, etc. Regards, Chuck On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 9:08 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's going to have to happen the other way around, radio manufacturers are going to have to start making APs with SFP cages and then you might start seeing lower cost options when it comes to hybrid cable. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Everything is pricy to begin with but after the demand is there price will go down just think of all the ways it would change the wisp industry No longer having to deal with cable interference on towers You can now link 450 radios 1000ft from farm house where you have line of sight It will allow manufactors to use fiber on AP's instead of Ethernet and get its power from the power wires It fixes soo many issues I really think this is a cable that needs to be made — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox On Sat, Oct 18, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Jason McKemie via Af af@afmug.com wrote: It's certainly possible, you just might not like the price. On Saturday, October 18, 2014, timothy steele via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I'm sure you have all seen the coax cable exeed uses with the extra copper on outside of jacked for power.. Dose anyone one know is it's possible to order fiber with 2 copper wires on out side of jacket in its own jacket? — Sent from Mailbox https://www.dropbox.com/mailbox
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
There are no beans to spill, it's still just the 450. Now what would be great is if Cambium could get with Laird and tell them stop using stainless nuts on stainless bolts. The next time I find one of those MFer's seized up, I'm going to drive it out into a field and give it a couple rounds of 45ACP. I'm talking about the sector mast clamp bolts and nuts. We had to move some sectors around and every single nut was seized onto their bolts. Please for the love of god just make everything galvanized. On 10/19/2014 8:55 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote: Gino, spill the 455 beans
Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable?
What he said. Just had a tower fall. Stainless steel bolts were still seized on the sectors. Probably the only parts that were still together after the fall. We needed to adjust the downtilt later, but we didn't know how bad stainless locked up when we installed them. - Original Message - From: George Skorup (Cyber Broadcasting) via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:22 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Custom fiber cable? There are no beans to spill, it's still just the 450. Now what would be great is if Cambium could get with Laird and tell them stop using stainless nuts on stainless bolts. The next time I find one of those MFer's seized up, I'm going to drive it out into a field and give it a couple rounds of 45ACP. I'm talking about the sector mast clamp bolts and nuts. We had to move some sectors around and every single nut was seized onto their bolts. Please for the love of god just make everything galvanized. On 10/19/2014 8:55 PM, TJ Trout via Af wrote: Gino, spill the 455 beans
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing customers i am dropping a two sector 450 system in with 120 segree KP antennas. cant afford any more sectors than that per site right now... Sent from my iPhone Kurt Fankhauser Wavelinc Communications P.O. Box 126 Bucyrus, OH 44820 http://www.wavelinc.com tel. 419-562-6405 fax. 419-617-0110 On Oct 18, 2014, at 11:21 AM, Mike Hammett via Af af@afmug.com wrote: I've noticed a lot of PMP operators are
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
I’m about to launch a 5 hop PowerBeam Backhaul at 100Mbps with a 150Mbps circuit. We test 3 hops and latency was less than 10ms average with TS-5’s between them. Finishing the next 2 on Tuesday or Wednesday. Been doing it for years so not sure of the management issue. We were in small areas though, not tens of miles across the country side. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Tyler Treat via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 9:10 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons What's your Backhaul strategy for having this many sites. How many hops do you get from fiber? With a ton of small sites, it seems like it would scale to an unmanageable level very quickly...? ___ Mangled by my iPhone. ___ Tyler Treat Corn Belt Technologies, Inc. tyler.tr...@cornbelttech.com ___ On Oct 19, 2014, at 10:52 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: +1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products. Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
At least they are fast replacable ;-)). This products do not arrive before next year. Pricing is not clear. - GENIAS INTERNET -- http://www.genias.net www.genias.net -- Stefan Englhardt Email: mailto:s...@genias.net s...@genias.net Dr. Gesslerstr. 20 D-93051 Regensburg Tel: +49 941 942798-0Fax: +49 941 942798-9 From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Ken Hohhof via Af Sent: Monday, October 20, 2014 7:06 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Maybe RF Elements is onto something with their waveguide port radios, extend using low loss elliptical waveguide and put the radios inside a nice building or enclosure on the ground away from the lighting. From: Paul McCall via Af mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:42 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons For us, the biggest issue is the replacement cost of the 450. NOT the initial cost, that is what it is, but we are in the lightning capital of the world. Sometimes we can repair everything that gets hit and sometimes on a direct strike, we can’t repair any of it. On most towers, we deploy 5 Ghz and 2.4 Ghz, so 8 APs each. Some are only one frequency band, so then there are only 4. Say those 4 APs are supporting 50 customers at $ 45 each… $ 2250 / month. (most towers are a less than that and some are more). So, if I lose $ 8K in APs ($ 2000 x 4) in one evening, I am looking at least 4 months of lost revenue just to replace those APs (not counting labor, etc.) We have had commercial, well-grounded towers that get hit twice in a season, so that’s 8 months (probably more like 10 months loss in real business terms) per year. That makes NO sense to play that game. And, again, a lot of towers have two frequency bands, thus 8 APs. We have had 4 commercial towers out of 18 with total losses this year on the APs. Thankfully, the used market on 100 series APs is very low cost, so not nearly as big of an impact. So, with ePMP APs (while maybe not as good as 450APs) I can at least cut my losses by 80%. That’s a big deal ! Unfortunately, that reality forces my hands. Paul From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:27 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com _ From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com http://www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get the site up and once the customers are there change it to sectors. The 450 platform is very easy to drop sectors in and have the existing clients link right up. I have a couple sites with existing
Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons
+1. I’ve already hit CenturyLink’s fastest speeds with anemic little Rocket 5M’s and nothing special. Imagine what happens when the Rocket AC or Mimosa come out with their products. Those features target the urban market where which I’ve seen numbers like 84% of the population is and for the most part, WISPS aren’t. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:39 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Microcells normally have good SNR. Add 802.11AC into the mix and you have very good performance without the crappy latency hit. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 05:27 PM, Mike Hammett via Af wrote: Then you miss out on the best performance. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 4:33:21 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Ahh, difference of philosophies. I just don’t want my business dependent on competitors or single suppliers. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Gino Villarini via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 2:27 PM To: af@afmug.com mailto:af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons So it's Roy against the world of sync Gino A. Villarini @gvillarini On Oct 19, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Rory Conaway via Af af@afmug.com wrote: Yea, I covered that in one of my articles. I just didn’t see everyone sitting around the campfire singing Kumbya. Another reason I don’t worry about GPS. My next article covers my main reason. Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Josh Reynolds via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 1:56 PM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons LOL :) Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/19/2014 08:13 AM, Rory Conaway via Af wrote: I’m assuming all 12 WISPs cooperate with each other? Rory From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mike Hammett via Af Sent: Sunday, October 19, 2014 5:33 AM To: af@afmug.com Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons Entirely not true spoken by a WISP that has up until this point used Mikrotik and Ubiquiti in rural and suburban markets with 12 WISP competitors. - Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions http://www.ics-il.com From: Mark Radabaugh via Af af@afmug.com To: af@afmug.com Sent: Saturday, October 18, 2014 3:52:03 PM Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pmp450 vs epmp pros vs cons And now your completely out of spectrum and can't deploy anything new. I suppose the good part for you is nobody else can do anything given the amount of noise your making. Mark On 10/18/14, 1:27 PM, Josh Reynolds via Af wrote: You just hit the nail on the head why we have never considered deploying 450 (and similar) in the past: By the time you (relative term) have the cashflow to pay for those sectors, we (another relative term, for people deploying UBNT or similar) have already thrown up 4-6 shielded sectors and at least 10 clients per. If we don't think we can hit a decent sub density or at least make the site a valuable repeater, then we don't go there. Josh Reynolds, Chief Information Officer SPITwSPOTS, www.spitwspots.com On 10/18/2014 09:01 AM, Kurt Fankhauser via Af wrote: I prefer sectors too but math doesnt always work out. I'll put the omni in to get
