are over rationalizing them and
need to be more creative.
John
From: Mike Tintner [mailto:tint...@blueyonder.co.uk]
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2008 4:47 PM
To: agi@v2.listbox.com
Subject: Re: [agi] Should I get a PhD?
Ben:I don't think there's any lack of creativity in the AGI world
Ben: Research grants for AGI are very hard to come by in the US, and from
what I hear, elsewhere in the world also
That sounds like - no academically convincing case has been made for
pursuing not just long-term AGI its more grandiose ambitions (which is
understandable/ obviously v.
Mike,
The lack of AGI funding can't be attributed solely to its risky nature,
because other highly costly and highly risk research has been consistently
funded.
For instance, a load of $$ has been put into building huge particle
accelerators, in the speculative hope that they might tell us
Ben,
For the record yet again, I certainly believe *robotic* AGI is possible - I
disagree only with the particular approaches I have seen.
I disagree re the importance/attractiveness of achieving small AGI. Hey,
just about all animals are v. limited by comparison with humans in their
Well, robotics has typically been better funded than AI, a fact that I
attribute to many peoples' intuitive liking for paying for building physical
stuff rather than just software ...
I admit I'm not a professional salesman, but OTOH I've been keeping a small
business with ~20 staff afloat for 7
Mike,
I have a personal question for you
It seems to me that
a)
You think almost everyone on this list is profoundly misguided in their
research direction, and in their understanding of the deeper issues
underlying their research.
b)
You are not professionally working in the AGI domain
c)
Ben,
Good question. Firstly, I learn a lot here, for wh. I'm v. grateful. But your
question is: why deal with people so opposed to you? Very broadly, the reason
is: the people most opposed to you, (provided they're intelligent), are just
those who force you to articulate your ideas most
thx for the reply!
***
Anyway, to answer you simply - conflict is v. fruitful, if you embrace it.
(Jerry Rubin expounded this POV well in Do It! )
***
I've always been more of an Abbie Hoffman guy, but ... sure...
***
More specifically, AGI-ers -as I have in part explained - are almost
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:55 PM, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote:
I don't think there's any lack of creativity in the AGI world ... and I
think it's pretty clear that rationality and creativity work together in all
really good scientific work.
Creativity is about coming up with new
Ben:I don't think there's any lack of creativity in the AGI world ... and I
think it's pretty clear that rationality and creativity work together in all
really good scientific work.Creativity is about coming up with new ideas.
Rationality is about validating ideas, and deriving their natural
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 6:47 PM, Mike Tintner tint...@blueyonder.co.ukwrote:
Ben:I don't think there's any lack of creativity in the AGI world ... and
I think it's pretty clear that rationality and creativity work together in
all really good scientific work.Creativity is about coming up with
You can start a PhD without having an MS first, but you'll still need to
take all the coursework corresponding to the MS
Like what kind of courses are those MS ones? I may or may not have
those background knowledge, through self-teaching...
And I think this makes sense! The PhD is supposed
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Paul Cray pmc...@gmail.com wrote:
In the UK, it is certainly possible to proceed directly to a PhD without
doing an MSc or much in the way of coursework, provided you have a good
enough Bachelor's degree. As a self-funded student, it would just be a
matter of
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 3:54 PM, Paul Cray pmc...@gmail.com wrote:
In the UK, it is certainly possible to proceed directly to a PhD without
doing an MSc or much in the way of coursework
Regarding admission, the same is true in the U.S., but one still has
to take the coursework after admission.
Typically in the UK, there wouldn't be any coursework as such. It varies
from institution to institution, but often there would no equivalent of
having to take formal classes/lectures and a US-style qualifying exam (and
if there is, such requirements would usually be departmental rather
university
YKY,
As many people have said, US universities usually have coursework
requirements for PhD.
Furthermore, in most US universities the application deadline for 2009
has passed or will pass soon --- our deadline is Dec. 15.
Therefore, you'd better consider Europe.
Pei
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at
As Ben said, the fact that both of us have relations with Temple
University is indeed a coincidence.
Peter enrolled in my AI course a few years ago, though I don't know
how much influence it has on him --- probably not too much.
Pei
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Joshua Fox
On 12/17/08, Pei Wang mail.peiw...@gmail.com wrote:
Furthermore, in most US universities the application deadline for 2009
has passed or will pass soon --- our deadline is Dec. 15.
If I remember correctly, GA Tech will still be accepting PhD
applications until February 1st.
Some deadlines for
Thanks for all the info...
I'll try both UK and US... (OK and Ireland too!)
---
agi
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Yan,
Your quest incorporates some questionable presumptions, that you will
literally be betting your (future) life on.
1. That AGI as presently conceived won't be just another dead end along the
way to intelligent machines. There have already been several dead ends and
the present incarnation
To add to what Ben is saying, the only thing that some U.S. students I
know test out of are undergraduate courses that are a prerequisite to
graduate admission. (For computer science, this can be done by
taking the GRE Computer Science Subject Test, which started to lose
relevance over two
Do you have an MS degree?
In Europe, it's sometimes the case that after you get an MS, you can do a
PhD with no additional coursework, only thesis work.
In the US, considerably more coursework is generally required (with rare
exceptions)
ben g
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 8:30 AM, YKY (Yan King
On a related note:
http://philip.greenspun.com/careers/
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agi
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I got my PhD there in 1989 in math, not AI
Let me see... you were about 22 in 1989? I was still an undergrad at
that age...
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It's just a coincidence.
I got my PhD there in 1989 in math, not AI
And Pei is the only AGI guy there in the CS department...
ben g
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 11:22 AM, Joshua Fox joshuat...@gmail.com wrote:
About graduate programs and AGI: It seems that Temple University has an
affinity for
An overly simplistic way of framing the issue:
Life is too short to get a PhD.
vs.
Life is too long not to get a PhD.
But seriously, I do enjoy reading job ads because it is one way of
seeing what tech companies are up to:
On the contrary, getting a PhD is an astoundingly poor strategy for raising
$$ for a startup. If you have a talent for biz sufficient to raise $$ for a
startup, you can always get some prof to join your team to lend you academic
credibility.
It is also useful in terms of lending you more
If you want to raise **business** $$ for an AGI project 5 years from now,
the best thing you could do IMO would be to spend the next 5 years becoming
successful **in business**
Then you will be able to go to investors with a load of biz credibility.
You'll also have some of your own $$ to invest.
About graduate programs and AGI: It seems that Temple University has an
affinity for AGI people--Ben Goertzel, Pei Wang, and now Peter de Blanc. Is
this just a coincidence?
Joshua
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 5:48 PM, Ben Goertzel b...@goertzel.org wrote:
Can I start the PhD directly without
OK, sounds like YKY should go to the UK then ;-)
I'll be sure to pay you a visit there!
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:43 PM, Daniel Allen mtsoftw...@gmail.com wrote:
To add to what Ben is saying, the only thing that some U.S. students I
know test out of are undergraduate courses that are a
In the UK, it is certainly possible to proceed directly to a PhD without
doing an MSc or much in the way of coursework, provided you have a good
enough Bachelor's degree. As a self-funded student, it would just be a
matter of finding a sympathetic supervisor (and the UK speaks English!).
Do you have an MS degree?
I don't have an MS.
In Europe, it's sometimes the case that after you get an MS, you can do a
PhD with no additional coursework, only thesis work.
That sounds good, but in Europe I may need to spend some time learning
a third language... =(
In the US, considerably
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 12:29 PM, YKY (Yan King Yin)
generic.intellige...@gmail.com wrote:
I got my PhD there in 1989 in math, not AI
Let me see... you were about 22 in 1989? I was still an undergrad at
that age...
Yep...
I was already interested in working on AGI, but didn't feel like
Quoting myself (regarding PhDs): Why one if you can have two, and at
the same time!
... Well, I can tell you, it is not exactly a great idea. Do people
thing PhDs are additive? I would say perhaps they follow a logarithmic
law or so, although Germans think they are additive since they write
name
I'm no expert in these matters, but it seems this conversation is lacking the
following point(s).
Ability to score funding for any venture usually requires salesmanship and
connections. Salesmanship in turn requires that you are able to tell a good
story about your product/approach, and be
On the other hand, if you want to get government research grants for your AI
work, then having a PhD is definitely a humongous plus...
ben
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 4:55 PM, Terren Suydam ba...@yahoo.com wrote:
I'm no expert in these matters, but it seems this conversation is lacking
the
A gross overstatement that makes a point, nonetheless:
If...you want a non-research career, a Ph.D. is definitely not for you.
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/dec/essay.phd.html
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If...you want a non-research career, a Ph.D. is definitely not for you.
I want to be either an entrepreneur or a researcher... it's hard to
decide. What does AGI need most? Further research, or a sound
business framework? It seems that both are needed...
To complicate the issue, even some PhD students are undecided about
their career path:
My ultimate goal is undecided; I would be happy as a professor, an
entrepreneur, or a researcher at IBM, Microsoft, or Google. I trust
that I'll know the right path in a few years.
http://aiphd.blogspot.com/
On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 6:12 PM, YKY (Yan King Yin)
generic.intellige...@gmail.com wrote:
If...you want a non-research career, a Ph.D. is definitely not for you.
I want to be either an entrepreneur or a researcher... it's hard to
decide. What does AGI need most? Further research, or a
How about funding from academia -- would that be significant? I mean,
can I expect to get research grants right after I get a PhD?
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On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 9:52 AM, YKY (Yan King Yin)
generic.intellige...@gmail.com wrote:
How about funding from academia -- would that be significant? I mean,
can I expect to get research grants right after I get a PhD?
Depends how much time your thesis supervisor has gotten you writing
grant
Depends how much time your thesis supervisor has gotten you writing
grant applications during your third year ;)
Generally speaking, if the $$ amount of research grants is bigger
than, say, investing my tuition fees on some business projects, then
it seems that the PhD is worth it (in terms of
Concerning opportunity costs, it's better to do neither and become a UPS driver:
http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html
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agi
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Regarding tuition fees, most PhD students in computer science (at
least at the top 50 CS departments), are funded from day one, though
they may start as TAs before getting an RA position.
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agi
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Hi YKY,
I'm considering getting a PhD somewhere, and I've accumulated some
material for a thesis in my 50%-finished AGI book. I think getting a
PhD will put my work in a more rigorous form and get it published.
Also it may help me get funding afterwards, either in academia or in
the business
Hi,
I went through this exact process of vacillation in 2003.
I have a purely entrepreneurial outcome in mind, but found I needed to
have folk listen to me. In order that some comfort be taken (by those
with $$$) in my ideas, I found, to my chagrin...that having a 'license
to think = PhD' (as
Research grants for AGI are very hard to come by in the US, and from what I
hear, elsewhere in the world also
So, as a prof, you would probably be faced with the choice of
-- getting no research grants, or struggling to get small ones
versus
-- getting moderate sized research grants for work
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