Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 8:14 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Aris Merchant wrote: >> Three reasons that would be a bad judgment, which I would likely moot: >> >> 1. I'm paying for the CFJ, which means the judge will get paid for it. >> It wouldn't be very nice to take money and

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Aris Merchant wrote: > Three reasons that would be a bad judgment, which I would likely moot: > > 1. I'm paying for the CFJ, which means the judge will get paid for it. > It wouldn't be very nice to take money and then assign an effectively > null judgment. This is an inap

Fwd: Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

Looks like I sent this message directly to Aris, instead of to the discussion forum. So, I guess, TTttDF (this time to the discussion forum)? -- Trigon -- Forwarded message -- From: "Reuben Staley" Date: Oct 20, 2017 8:38 PM Subject: Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes To: "Aris Merchant" Cc:

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Alex Smith wrote: I should have CoE'd the first report with the mistake, just before the week was up, in order to neatly create a time paradox. (That said, COEs don't have to be by Players, so I'm not sure how you get a paradox. Greetings, Ørjan.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Three reasons that would be a bad judgment, which I would likely moot: 1. I'm paying for the CFJ, which means the judge will get paid for it. It wouldn't be very nice to take money and then assign an effectively null judgment. 2. The CFJ concerns a subject of deep game signifcance. If the rules d

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, VJ Rada wrote: Bread -Bread is a transferable, destructible asset. -You have to destroy (syn. eat) 4 bread a month otherwise you become "starving" and cannot take any game actions for the next month unless someone transfers you 5 bread (or some amount of bread, I'm not a wiz

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Is the safety-valve super-secret propitietery technology? On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 1:32 PM, Alex Smith wrote: > On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 19:24 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: >> On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, Alex Smith wrote: >> > On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 18:28 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: >> > > I submit the following P

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

I had two ideas I was writing before I realized I have no idea the attention span for long proposals. One was called Emissions Trading Scheme and another was Bread. Obviously they're mutually exclusive. Bread -Bread is a transferable, destructible asset. -You have to destroy (syn. eat) 4 bread a m

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 19:24 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, Alex Smith wrote: > > On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 18:28 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > I submit the following Proposal, "Don't vote for this", AI-3, and  > > > AP-pend it: > >  > > The created rule wouldn't actually work (for i

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, Alex Smith wrote: > On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 18:28 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > I submit the following Proposal, "Don't vote for this", AI-3, and  > > AP-pend it: > > The created rule wouldn't actually work (for interesting reasons which > are almost along the line of a scam).

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

I've requested that the judge consider what would happen in that rule's absence. -Aris On Oct 20, 2017 6:59 PM, "Alexis Hunt" wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 21:53 Aris Merchant gmail.com> wrote: > >> Actually, given that this makes things more interesting... I SH-CFJ (or >> AP-CFJ if the a

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 18:28 -0700, Kerim Aydin wrote: > I submit the following Proposal, "Don't vote for this", AI-3, and  > AP-pend it: The created rule wouldn't actually work (for interesting reasons which are almost along the line of a scam). That said, that's not something I'd like to rely on.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Sat, 2017-10-21 at 09:32 +1100, Madeline wrote: > I intend to win the game with two days' notice, in accordance with > Rule 7923. (Does this really work before it's even a rule?) Dependent action intents work "backwards". The intent itself doesn't do anything, but the resolution of the dependen

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

I would judge IRRELEVANT: situation appears to be too hypothetical and attenuated to be a useful clarification of the game state. On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 12:59 PM, Alexis Hunt wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 21:53 Aris Merchant > wrote: >> >> Actually, given that this makes things more inte

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 21:53 Aris Merchant < thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Actually, given that this makes things more interesting... I SH-CFJ (or > AP-CFJ if the action would otherwise fail due to lack of shinies) "If there > were currently a power 3.9 rule purpoting to allow any p

Re: BUS: Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

Ienpw III and Bayushi have both previously objected before and may do so again. I believe some people have coded scripts to check for this sort of thing which automatically object. Has it already been a month since ProofTechnique posted? Time flies. The other inactives are, I think, Murphy and omd

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

>Why don't we just completely abolish Shinies and start over with our economy? Ugh we already did this a few months ago. Yeah though, not opposed. On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 11:54 AM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, ATMunn . wrote: >> This might be a good place to start, but it's cert

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Okay, how did this go from "The shiny balance can not be negative because it is an asset, not a switch." to "Any Player CAN destroy the universe With Notice." On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:28 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > I submit the following Proposal, "Don't vote for this", AI-3, and > AP-pend it:

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Aris Merchant wrote: > I intend to destroy the universe with notice. https://faculty.washington.edu/kerim/nomic/cases/?2150

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, ATMunn . wrote: > This might be a good place to start, but it's certainly way too > long in itself. I don't really like the (a) (b) (c) etc. way that > this is written. Yeah, I chose a maximally-specified starting point on purpose; feel free to trim anything that isn't nee

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, Alexis Hunt wrote: > No, you spent Notes to promote/demote yourself or others. Oh that's right! > Have you played Kremlin?  oooh, it's been a long time. That's an alternate idea (named "puppets" that you bid to control their votes...)

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, Madeline wrote: > This is a really cool idea, I'm looking forward to seeing how it works. One > issue I can see is that if you're going to have the oligarchs vote among each > other, we'll need to amend the voting system to allow for Decisions where not > everyone is eligible

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

True. contracts ftw On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 8:44 PM, Alexis Hunt wrote: > Easy enough for people to do that now with contracts, I think. > > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 20:42 ATMunn . wrote: > >> This might be a good place to start, but it's certainly way too long in >> itself. I don't really like t

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

Easy enough for people to do that now with contracts, I think. On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 20:42 ATMunn . wrote: > This might be a good place to start, but it's certainly way too long in > itself. I don't really like the (a) (b) (c) etc. way that this is written. > > Another thing was that I was thin

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

This might be a good place to start, but it's certainly way too long in itself. I don't really like the (a) (b) (c) etc. way that this is written. Another thing was that I was thinking that the auction rule could permit any player to auction off anything, regardless of whether or not a rule specif

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

This is a really cool idea, I'm looking forward to seeing how it works. One issue I can see is that if you're going to have the oligarchs vote among each other, we'll need to amend the voting system to allow for Decisions where not everyone is eligible to vote. On 2017-10-21 10:59, Kerim Aydi

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

If supporting this message is allowable, I do so. On 10/20/2017 08:24 PM, Aris Merchant wrote: > I intend to destroy the universe with notice. > > -Aris > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 5:22 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > wrote: >> I intend t win the game with two days' notice, as described in

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

I too like this idea. At this point, I think we need to do a lot more experimental stuff and add a lot of mechanics and just see what sticks. On 10/20/2017 07:52 PM, Alexis Hunt wrote: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 19:48 Kerim Aydin > wrote: > > I'm personally worki

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 20:00 Kerim Aydin wrote: > > Yes the differences are (1) not everyone is on the list, and (2) the GWtoO > is a recordkeepor, not the chooser of promotions and (3) it very much a > sub-part of > the economy, not a standalone game, especially the auction part (I don't > think

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, ATMunn . wrote: > This is a very interesting conversation. I'll just say my opinions on > everyone's view, and throw in my two cents at the end. > > ​Regarding the original tax idea, I think that the idea of tax in general is > something that is really lacking from Agora

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

I fundamentally disagree. I personally enjoy just having "extra say" in my FOR/AGAINST votes on proposals based on their merits, and it creates a dynamic where you seek opinions on the folks on top of the chain when putting out ideas. (as long as this rotates so everyone gets a chance for a l

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

The power to get more votes are just wins/black ribbons/insert fashionable item here in disguise imo. Best bang for your "do anything lol" buck. On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 1:53 AM, ATMunn . wrote: > This is a very interesting conversation. I'll just say my opinions on > everyone's view, and throw i

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Alexis Hunt wrote: > On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 19:48 Kerim Aydin wrote: > I'm personally working on an Oligarchy proposal.  For those who haven't > been > under an Oligarchy, this works as follows: > > 1.  Players can be Oligarchs.  There's a pyramidal hiera

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

This is a very interesting conversation. I'll just say my opinions on everyone's view, and throw in my two cents at the end. ​Regarding the original tax idea, I think that the idea of tax in general is something that is really lacking from Agora. I like to think of Agora as a country, and the rule

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 19:48 Kerim Aydin wrote: > I'm personally working on an Oligarchy proposal. For those who haven't > been > under an Oligarchy, this works as follows: > > 1. Players can be Oligarchs. There's a pyramidal hierarchy. Current > draft > has 4 low Oligarchs, 2 middle, 1

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, VJ Rada wrote: > Maybe we could abolish Estates and like... create some kind of voting > power market? Where everyone has say three voting power and can buy > and sell the extra power at will? Or something like that might be fun. oh, snap. I don't think we should abolish E

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

Taxing, increasing and decreasing the rewards is fundamentally pointless while there's nothing to spend on. So we really need a diversity of spending options. These should represent ways that players can Specialize in the game, and you shouldn't be able to compete in every specialty (promoting

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

Not that I wouldn't vote for the inactivity tax & the income tax. I also, again, have a proposal pending to actually print money in a way that I think multiple people have said is a good idea, so that could be useful. We could also just lower the value of welcome packages. It takes 10 weeks of re

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

I agree more with Alexis here. We need to think of interesting gameplay mechanics more than we need to think of tax mechanics. I've, I don't think, never exchanged money for a good or service not sold by the government. Contracts should help us buy and sell more things, but it needs us to actually

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

Another thing to consider is placing a tax on commodities -- that is to say resources that only a select few players can get their hands onto. Estates, for example, only provide benefits to those who can afford them; therefore, a tax could be placed on them. Tangentially, there are other ways

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 18:53 Aris Merchant < thoughtsoflifeandligh...@gmail.com> wrote: > Our economic troubles have gone on long enough. Printing money has > been rejected, despite it being what we had intended to use if we ever > run out. If we don't want to print money, we _need_ taxes. I inten

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

The inactivity tax is necessary because we have several players who cannot be deregistered due to objections, and because it serves a different purpose than the wealth tax. The wealth tax is primarily to disincentivse hoarding, and will only bring in really huge amounts of money if the secretary in

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Ribbon fix

I think there's enough precedent in the real world from googling "illegal value". On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 18:56 Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > I think it matters. Illegal isn't a common definition for impossible, and > the switch rule talks wholly of possible/impossible. But sure if you > think so. >

Re: DIS: Idea: Taxes

Is the inactivity tax really necessary? Shinies of deregistered players already don't count towards the supply limit. I'm alright with the idea of a wealth tax, but you might want to tie your shiny values to the supply limit rather than hardcoding them so that it's futureproof. (Something like

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Ribbon fix

I think it matters. Illegal isn't a common definition for impossible, and the switch rule talks wholly of possible/impossible. But sure if you think so. On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Alexis Hunt wrote: > I don't think that it matters given that it's not capitalized. The normal > interpretation princi

DIS: Idea: Taxes

Our economic troubles have gone on long enough. Printing money has been rejected, despite it being what we had intended to use if we ever run out. If we don't want to print money, we _need_ taxes. I intend to write a tax proposal, but first we need to decide on the tax rates. Income taxes won't re

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Ribbon fix

I don't think that it matters given that it's not capitalized. The normal interpretation principles here would mean a value which is not valid, I think. On Fri, 20 Oct 2017 at 17:08 Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > Do you mean IMPOSSIBLE? Given that there's no SHALL or SHALL NOTs > associated > with ow

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

I already have a proposal which ties the Supply Value to the number of players every month. Called (if I recall) "slightly more responsible Zimbabwean-style economics". On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:37 AM, ATMunn . wrote: > That's an interesting idea. I feel like this could be scammable though. The

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, Madeline wrote: > I intend to win the game with two days' notice, in accordance with Rule 7923. > (Does this really work before it's even a rule?) Yes, but it's not Rule 7923 (that's the proposal), saying it was "Rule 7923" instead of "as described in Proposal 7923" might m

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Another option could be to go all the way with this and remove the supply limit altogether, making shinies destructible and having costs based on how many are possessed by players, then rewards either fully constant or based on some kind of logarithmic function? (Having them tied linearly to ho

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

That's an interesting idea. I feel like this could be scammable though. Then again, what isn't scammable? On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Kerim Aydin wrote: > > > Why not just change it so a Welcome package Creates money rather than > transferring it? (and to balance it, the secretary can dest

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Why not just change it so a Welcome package Creates money rather than transferring it? (and to balance it, the secretary can destroy money if total is above some multiple of # of players). On Sat, 21 Oct 2017, VJ Rada wrote: > By the way, with this registration we have 20 players and 1000 > sh

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

By the way, with this registration we have 20 players and 1000 shinies. It's literally only possible for everyone to claim a welcome package if nobody gained any more money than that. We need to print money. On Sat, Oct 21, 2017 at 9:22 AM, VJ Rada wrote: > I pay Telnaior 5 shinies. > > On Sat, O

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

On 2017-10-21 09:22, Kerim Aydin wrote: Telnaior - you should announce intent to win with 2 days notice, in case proposal 7923 passes... On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, ATMunn . wrote: Speaking of... If Telnaior's shiny balance is 0 as of the sending of this message, I transfer 10 shinies to Telnaior.

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Telnaior - you should announce intent to win with 2 days notice, in case proposal 7923 passes... On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, ATMunn . wrote: > Speaking of... > > If Telnaior's shiny balance is 0 as of the sending of this message, I > transfer 10 shinies to Telnaior. > > I included the conditional i

DIS: Re: BUS: [Proposal] A Reward for Obedience

​On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 1:15 PM, ATMunn . wrote: > Alright. I think this looks pretty good. If nobody mentions anything else > in the next day or so, I'll pend it for real. I pend the proposal "A Reward for Obedience v4" for 1 shiny. On Wed, Oct 18, 2017 at 9:40 AM, ATMunn . wrote: > Change

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Eh, you'll get money soon enough. Welcome! I'm Agora's second-newest player before you registered (I think), so I'm still learning the ropes. On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 4:52 PM, Madeline wrote: > That's both the most disappointing (but perhaps the most sensible) > interpretation and means I'm stuck

DIS: Re: BUS: Ribbon fix

Do you mean IMPOSSIBLE? Given that there's no SHALL or SHALL NOTs associated with owning ribbons I can't see the situation where it would be ILLEGAL...? (I think you mean "if a player's Ribbon Ownership has an impossible value") On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Alexis Hunt wrote: > Proposal: Ribbon Prese

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

That's both the most disappointing (but perhaps the most sensible) interpretation and means I'm stuck being broke D: On 2017-10-21 07:47, Aris Merchant wrote: The generally accepted interpretation is that the action entirely fails. Welcome back! -Aris On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Madeli

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

The generally accepted interpretation is that the action entirely fails. Welcome back! -Aris On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 1:46 PM, Madeline wrote: > Alright, so what... does happen? It specifies you can't destroy a stamp if > Agora can't pay the balance, but nothing else has a similar clause which

Re: DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

Alright, so what... does happen? It specifies you can't destroy a stamp if Agora can't pay the balance, but nothing else has a similar clause which suggests it's intended to still be possible. On 2017-10-21 07:44, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: The shiny balance can not be negative bec

DIS: Re: BUS: Registration and Apology

The shiny balance can not be negative because it is an asset, not a switch. On 10/20/2017 04:42 PM, Telnaior wrote: > I flip my Citizenship to Registered. > > For recordkeeping purposes, my username is Telnaior and I was > previously deregistered in 2014. > > Anyways, I'm going to apologise, I fe

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report

To me this sounds like lack of explicit consent to be a player, so by CFJ 3455 the ratification failed. On Fri, 20 Oct 2017, Alex Smith wrote: > On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 06:33 -0400, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > wrote: > > Yes, he had, but it seems I missed that when preparing a report, > > p

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report

My objection is that e can deregister. Or I guess you could ratify em away if e wishes. But it seems rather a bad idea to ratify things away in reports as a general matter. Firstly because intentionally inaccurate or negligent reports are not even reports (reaffirmed recently with regard to your ow

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report

Could you explain this objection? On 10/20/2017 07:07 AM, VJ Rada wrote: > No please no ratifying people out of existence thanks very much. > > On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:33 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus > wrote: >> Yes, he had, but it seems I missed that when preparing a report, >> probabl

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report

On Fri, 2017-10-20 at 06:33 -0400, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: > Yes, he had, but it seems I missed that when preparing a report, > probably when I was transitioning computers. In my next report, I > will ratify him away if he doesn't mind. I should have CoE'd the first report with the

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report

No please no ratifying people out of existence thanks very much. On Fri, Oct 20, 2017 at 9:33 PM, Publius Scribonius Scholasticus wrote: > Yes, he had, but it seems I missed that when preparing a report, > probably when I was transitioning computers. In my next report, I will > ratify him away if

Re: DIS: Re: OFF: [Registrar] Weekly Report

Yes, he had, but it seems I missed that when preparing a report, probably when I was transitioning computers. In my next report, I will ratify him away if he doesn't mind. On 10/19/2017 11:10 PM, Alexis Hunt wrote: > On Sun, 15 Oct 2017 at 15:06 Publius Scribonius Scholasticus  > > ais52