Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Hello all, petal fall here very early season... When I said that we were not confident with conversions I meant that this is a task that we do not encourage at first. - When you plant a young orchard you have time to hear it grow, drive corrective pruning if necessary, tune fertilizing... You can follow something similar to a recipe and adapt to your conditions, ask for advice... - When you make a heavy restructuring of an orchard, putting saws into big wood, only experience can give you guidelines : both sides or only one side for first year, what will be the remaining load after first pruning, what will be the shoot reaction of the tree. Will the first year new wood, get flower buds on one year side wood... Specially for a farmer with no support, this is a big risk for him and for the development of the concept. When you are on innovation development, one problem is to avoid "the" bad experience at young age that can kill even a good idea. At the very first years of developing the "mur fruitier" we developed orchards on specific farms with, what you call in US I think "lead users", we trained field advisors (mainly private), this is our "natural" behavior in such a case. At same time we followed all the main experiences throughout France specifically if they were suspected to be risky. We found cases were societies in very bad economic situations with no more money for pruning, took the opportunity of mechanical pruning to try to escape to bankruptcy... This is not of course the best situation for success. That's extreme case of course and I am pretty sure this is not a situation that you were thinking of. I think that, if an heavy restructuring would be experienced on an orchard, it would be done as a limited trial, with no economic risk for the orchard because it can give a big collapse to the money income... Specifically on Con's arguments: Consider that, when you mechanically prune a tree at 10 leaf shoot, you make a strong stress to the tree. Almost half of the photosynthesis factory is on the soil. When you live (like you do I think) with trees since decades you feel the tree... after this huge blind green pruning it stops breathing for at least 2 weeks. I was not on the Centre at the very first trials but I am pretty sure that such a big foliage drop in august (may be 2/3 of canopy at that date) will not allow the tree to recover enough before fall to grow new "brindilles". You need "brindilles", not only spurs, because you need to get new bud wood without fruit to get the fruiting wood of the following years. I think the big stress of the tree after pruning is responsible for the depressive effect on crop (harvest date delay, 2 mm less size...). Think of the stress of the orchard after a big hail damage that we all have seen in our life. Following your recent observation (I hope I remember well sorry if it's property of another folk) on New Zealand situation, this a case were, the light, the long vegetative season and the exceptional soil fertility of NZ would be interesting to watch at. I shall ask my colleagues for protocols and put them on a ftp. IFTA visited us 2 or 3 seasons before. I don't remember fully but I think they took some pictures from the "mur fruitier" and we had a "discussion" at that time. If I remind, they took a picture of a declining sunny flower and me (the sunny flower only is declining !! no joke please) you will find on their web site if it's not too old stuff. Don't be cruel to my English... Best regards Jean -Message d'origine- De : apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] De la part de maurice tougas Envoyé : mardi 5 avril 2011 13:29 À : Apple-crop discussion list Objet : Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter" Thank you Jean and Con, You have made what on the surface appeared to be an easy transition, into a most interesting, albeit time consuming, research project. I assume now that when Jean states that he is "not confident with conversions" in comment related to question two, having to do with the timing of summer hedging, that you meant that you are not confident with stating that we here in Massachusetts would find that the correct timing for hedging would be 10 leaves, as opposed to not being confident of the wisdom of conversion of training systems. As you have both clearly stated that the single most critical aspect of this system is determining the proper timing for summer hedging, then proceeding with caution is advised. Last summer the IFTA visited several NY orchards who were employing modified summer hedging. Though they were not attempting to keep as thin a wall as described, I believe they were performing the hedging in August as suggested by Con. Jean, would it be possible to receive the protocol y
Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Thank you Jean and Con, You have made what on the surface appeared to be an easy transition, into a most interesting, albeit time consuming, research project. I assume now that when Jean states that he is "not confident with conversions" in comment related to question two, having to do with the timing of summer hedging, that you meant that you are not confident with stating that we here in Massachusetts would find that the correct timing for hedging would be 10 leaves, as opposed to not being confident of the wisdom of conversion of training systems. As you have both clearly stated that the single most critical aspect of this system is determining the proper timing for summer hedging, then proceeding with caution is advised. Last summer the IFTA visited several NY orchards who were employing modified summer hedging. Though they were not attempting to keep as thin a wall as described, I believe they were performing the hedging in August as suggested by Con. Jean, would it be possible to receive the protocol you developed to test for timing of summer pruning, or is it as simple as shearing at a series of timings, and then watching for results? Thanks again for your input. Maurice On Tue, Apr 5, 2011 at 6:38 AM, Con.Traas wrote: > > > Hello all, > Point 5 is in my mind probably the most vital to get right. If this does > not work the system will not work. > > Quote: > > "5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of > growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days > become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to > reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of > growth to fruiting bud initiation begins. > > 5/ yes that's the explanation from Louis Lorette who did a theorization > of summer pruning in early 20th. In our case I am afraid that we did a > more empirical work, designing trials to find the best pruning date in > our conditions. The 10 leaves date, seems to work for France." > > I have been looking at summer pruning for many years, and in our part of > the World, a 10 leaves point of pruning, or just around June 21st, does > not work. In fact, for most varieties, early August, perhaps even the > second week of August, is the appropriate time. The date at which a > shoot can be headed with reasonable expectation of forming a fruit bud > on resultant brindle seems to depend on crop load, soil nutrition and > soil type (which can vary across a field or orchard), water > availability, apple variety, use of gibberellin inhibitor (like > prohexadione calcium) and then something like an "Indian Summer" (an > unusually warm spell in mid August) can cause re-growth of buds which > you would expect to set fruit buds, resulting in turn in no shoot tip > fruit buds. > > What I am attempting to put across is that using mechanical pruning with > this system is not without difficulty, and what may work well in France > may not work so well elsewhere. > > A most interesting conversation; many thanks. > > Con Traas > The Apple Farm > Cahir > Ireland > > > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
[apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Hello all, Point 5 is in my mind probably the most vital to get right. If this does not work the system will not work. Quote: "5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of growth to fruiting bud initiation begins. 5/ yes that's the explanation from Louis Lorette who did a theorization of summer pruning in early 20th. In our case I am afraid that we did a more empirical work, designing trials to find the best pruning date in our conditions. The 10 leaves date, seems to work for France." I have been looking at summer pruning for many years, and in our part of the World, a 10 leaves point of pruning, or just around June 21st, does not work. In fact, for most varieties, early August, perhaps even the second week of August, is the appropriate time. The date at which a shoot can be headed with reasonable expectation of forming a fruit bud on resultant brindle seems to depend on crop load, soil nutrition and soil type (which can vary across a field or orchard), water availability, apple variety, use of gibberellin inhibitor (like prohexadione calcium) and then something like an "Indian Summer" (an unusually warm spell in mid August) can cause re-growth of buds which you would expect to set fruit buds, resulting in turn in no shoot tip fruit buds. What I am attempting to put across is that using mechanical pruning with this system is not without difficulty, and what may work well in France may not work so well elsewhere. A most interesting conversation; many thanks. Con Traas The Apple Farm Cahir Ireland ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Hello Maurice and all Consider that we are growing apple trees in very good conditions of soil climate and light (parallel 45°) and that the aim of the game is to adapt the training system to the conditions you get for your orchard 1/ In the original concept we do not give a pyramidal shape, the thickness should be 1/2 meter wide (top to bottom) at beginning and then increase slightly with age. Our oldest orchard remains below a meter wide. This is very thin ! 2/ That's the key point. The pruning date has to be fine tuned to match the goal (making what we call "brindilles" that's the small shoot 15 - 20cm long, crowned with a flower bud), on our orchard with all varieties/rootstocks and situations we are pruning on a 10 days period. We are not very confident with conversions. 3/Ok 4/Ok, but it comes when it comes, no relation with cosmology... (yet) ;-)) 5/ yes that's the explanation from Louis Lorette who did a theorization of summer pruning in early 20th. In our case I am afraid that we did a more empirical work, designing trials to find the best pruning date in our conditions. The 10 leaves date, seems to work for France. 6/ The flat shape gives all fruit an homogeneous exposition to light. We have less sunburn/white faces in some varieties (granny). 7/ not really in our conditions, we prune each year the same place/thickness 8/ we are planting 3.5m between rows and 1m (single axis) or 1m50 (bi axe trees) or 2m (palmettes) on the row. The height (for M9 stocks) of the row is topped mechanically at 3m5, this should be linked with the "apple crop" discussion on tree row space height (parallel 45°). Of course we do have trial with higher density and lower density. The more dense the higher early crop, the higher the cost, but full crop potential remains identical when the hedge row if fully established. 9/ yes but we do not encourage conversion. More to discuss if wishes come 10/ that's clever of course but we are in an area with a high fireblight pressure, we never saw an increase of fireblight infection following mechanical pruning. More to discuss if wishes 11/ yes sure 12/ yes could be (depends on the initial orchard), but should be unbearable for a smart orchardist who loves its trees... grown to respect trees, their natural behavior... 13/ yes our main efforts at the moment are aiming at adapting mechanical thinning to the orchard, "darwin" a German device, works very well in this training system. More to discuss on this point 14/ yes, the later you apply mechanical thinning the more you can get strips marks on the fruits. More to discuss on this 15/ I would not say that. When you make trials comparing training system, the best one is the one that you are supporting, training the best... So the answer is difficult. To mention drawbacks, considering crop yield I would say identical, size slightly lower, harvest date 5 days later. Some varieties adapt well, some not. Of course type 4 varieties (granny) suits well and type1 varieties like spurs of red delicious are more difficult to adapt (but possible). Adapting variety/stock to the conditions is the same burden compared to other training systems. 16/ the better fruit exposition gives more homogeneous color fruit. No fruit hidden inside the canopy 17/ yes correct, this does not seem coherent with fruit exposition but this is measured in our conditions. 18/ labor : standard pruning in our condition is about 200h per hectare(1m²) mechanical pruning is 2h per ha, one year over you have to make hand pruning in the "mur fruitier" for forgotten shoots 50h per ha. The main effect on work is on harvest efficiency in our condition an average picker man harvests 150kg per hour in central leader and 200kg per hour in "mur fruitier" due to easier fruit access. In our mind the concept is devoted at producing average quality grade fruit for export standards, not best quality, just standard quality with average size, very regular, with less picking phases since all fruit is coming from the same type of wood/exposition. The goal is to match the requisites : firmness, size, chemical restrictions... Labor quantity is one thing but labor quality is another one. At the moment, we do need such skill for our pruners (central leader) that it is becoming difficult to find the right people to do the job. The "market share" in new plantings in France for the "mur fruitier" can be evaluated to 5% though we do not have clear data on this point. To make the job you need at least a pruning machine, the entry ticket is expensive so you have to share a pruning machine or build a 10 ha bloc... ad libitum Best regards Jean Marc Jourdain -Message d'origine- De : apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] De la part de maurice tougas Envoyé : samedi 2 avril 201
Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Jean, Please comment/correct my impressions of what principles are involved with the le Mur fruitier system. 1) The tree form result is a wall which is 1 meter thick at the base, 1/2 meter wide at the top. 2) Mechanical pruning consists of a single annual shearing at 6 to 8/10 leaves upon the fruiting shoot. Exception being first year conversion when a single shearing would additionally take place as buds break in the spring. 3) That initial spring shearing stimulates numerous points of growth, which will later be sheared at the 6-10 leaf shearing. 4) The shearing at 6-10 leaves is timed to coincide with a relatively short period of time before summer solstice. 5) This shearing shortly before solstice allows for short extension of growth. As solstice is passed, days begin to become shorter. As days become shorter, tree is keyed to shift from vegetative growth to reproductive, and so extension growth is limited and conversion of growth to fruiting bud initiation begins. 6) With total width of no more than 1 meter, sunlight needs to travel no more than 1/2 meter to reach trunk (assuming north/south orientation), and so an adequate amount of sunlight exposure is maintained though out the canopy. 7) Depth or severity of pruning is determined by crop load. If crop is heavy, then more severe, or deeper shearing is employed. 8) Tree planting distance is 80cm by 3 meters. 9) Conversion from axis, tall spindle and super spindle tree forms are possible. 10) Hedging must occur when dry weather is predicted and conditions for fireblight infection are not high. 11) The year of conversion will result in significant yield reduction. 12) Initial spring shearing year of conversion should be at 40 cm from the trunk at the base, tapering to 20 cm at the top. 13) Mechanical thinning of blossoms is encouraged by this system. 14) Mechanical thinning should take place at the pink bud stage. 15) Yield increase of 10% as compared to traditional hand pruned trees is expected. 16) Increase in red color is expected. 17) Decrease in fruit sunburn is expected. 18) Total reduction in labor requirements is expected in the range of 10%. You are most kind to comment on these impressions. If there are additional points you believe I should consider, please feel free to bring them into the discussion. Thank you again, Maurice Tougas Fruit grower Northborough, MA On Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 12:29 PM, maurice tougas wrote: > Hello Jean, > > This must be my lucky day. > Je dois traiter ma femme à dîner ce soir! > I will soon develop a list of questions for you. > Thank you so much for your offer. > > Maurice > > > 2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc >> >> Hi Maurice >> >> To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was >> created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of >> France), I shall be able to answer all questions. >> >> The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better >> access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that >> time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, >> then we decided to go on with the orchard. >> >> Jean Marc Jourdain >> Ctifl >> Centre manager >> Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr >> >> -- Forwarded message -- >> From: maurice tougas >> Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM >> Subject: "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter" >> To: Andre Tougas >> >> >> Croppers, >> >> >> >> Does anyone know of a translated version of "Pommier, le Mur fruitier"? >> >> >> >> I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to >> Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We >> saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them >> in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system >> I've seen. >> >> >> >> Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. >> >> >> >> Maurice Tougas >> >> -- >> Maurice Tougas >> Tougas Family Farm >> Northborough,MA 01532 >> 508-450-0844 >> >> >> -- >> Maurice Tougas >> Tougas Family Farm >> Northborough,MA 01532 >> 508-450-0844 >> >> ___ >> apple-crop mailing list >> apple-crop@virtualorchard.net >> http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop >> > > > > -- > Maurice Tougas > Tougas Family Farm > Northborough,MA 01532 > 508-450-0844 > -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Hello Jean, This must be my lucky day. Je dois traiter ma femme à dîner ce soir! I will soon develop a list of questions for you. Thank you so much for your offer. Maurice 2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc > > Hi Maurice > > To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was > created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of > France), I shall be able to answer all questions. > > The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access > to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. > Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we > decided to go on with the orchard. > > Jean Marc Jourdain > Ctifl > Centre manager > Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: maurice tougas > Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM > Subject: "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter" > To: Andre Tougas > > > Croppers, > > > > Does anyone know of a translated version of "Pommier, le Mur fruitier"? > > > > I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium > last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example > of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The > above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. > > > > Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. > > > > Maurice Tougas > > -- > Maurice Tougas > Tougas Family Farm > Northborough,MA 01532 > 508-450-0844 > > > -- > Maurice Tougas > Tougas Family Farm > Northborough,MA 01532 > 508-450-0844 > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Bonjour, I see the publication is available in French at http://www.amazon.fr/Pommier-mur-fruitier-Collectif/dp/2879111838. What is the publication date? To what extent has "le mur fruitier" been adopted in French commercial production? Merci beaucoup! Jon 2011/4/1 Jourdain Jean-Marc : > Hi Maurice > > To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was > created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of > France), I shall be able to answer all questions. > > The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better > access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that > time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, > then we decided to go on with the orchard. > > Jean Marc Jourdain > Ctifl > Centre manager > Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr > > -- Forwarded message -- > From: maurice tougas > Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM > Subject: "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter" > To: Andre Tougas > > > Croppers, > > > > Does anyone know of a translated version of "Pommier, le Mur fruitier"? > > > > I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to > Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We > saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them > in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system > I've seen. > > > > Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. > > > > Maurice Tougas > > -- > Maurice Tougas > Tougas Family Farm > Northborough,MA 01532 > 508-450-0844 > > > -- > Maurice Tougas > Tougas Family Farm > Northborough,MA 01532 > 508-450-0844 > > ___ > apple-crop mailing list > apple-crop@virtualorchard.net > http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop > > -- JMCEXTMAN Jon Clements cleme...@umext.umass.edu aka 'Mr Liberty' aka 'Mr Honeycrisp' IM mrhoneycrisp 413.478.7219 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
Hi Maurice To my knowledge there is no translation of the book. Since the concept was created in our orchards here in Lanxade Centre (near Bergerac South West of France), I shall be able to answer all questions. The first rows of this training system were planted in 1995 for better access to fruit, since we were hosting a robotic harvester program at that time. Then the robotic program fell down, too much cost, too poor yield, then we decided to go on with the orchard. Jean Marc Jourdain Ctifl Centre manager Jourdain(at)Ctifl.fr -- Forwarded message -- From: maurice tougas mailto:appleman.maur...@gmail.com>> Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM Subject: "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter" To: Andre Tougas mailto:tougasf...@gmail.com>> Croppers, Does anyone know of a translated version of "Pommier, le Mur fruitier"? I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. Maurice Tougas -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
[apple-crop] "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter"
-- Forwarded message -- From: maurice tougas Date: Fri, Apr 1, 2011 at 7:24 AM Subject: "Pommier, Le Mur Fruiter" To: Andre Tougas Croppers, Does anyone know of a translated version of "Pommier, le Mur fruitier"? I am intrigued by the concept of this system after having traveled to Belgium last week scouting visits for the IFTA study tour this summer. We saw example of orchards trated with this system, and will be visiting them in July. The above publication appears to be the best coverage of the system I've seen. Alas, mon papa is no longer with me to help me with this. Maurice Tougas -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
