Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

2017-03-09 15:37 GMT+01:00 Hendrik Boom : > On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 19:35:00 +, Lyberta wrote: > > > Eric Duhamel: > >> Depending on what you mean by "newbies", I don't think they would know > >> if they want any particular image of GNU/Linux except the one that was > >> designed to run on the pro

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, Mar 9, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > Will the EOMA68-A20 boot from USB to run an installer? right. it's complicated (down to the extremely small PCB size and the pinouts of the A20). feel free to skip right to the very last sentence. in between this is for technical readers.

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sun, 12 Feb 2017 19:35:00 +, Lyberta wrote: > Eric Duhamel: >> Depending on what you mean by "newbies", I don't think they would know >> if they want any particular image of GNU/Linux except the one that was >> designed to run on the product by the maker of the product. After all, >> they d

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Hi Hendrik, My experience when I end up swapping to a hard drive is that the whole > system becomes so slow and unresponsive that it mosstsly ignores console > input, and I have no ability to kill things before the OOM does. Often > the best way to get things moving again is a hard reset. And th

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 2017-03-08 at 06:16:20 +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > and calls them a criminal enterprise. > > if they've distributed copyright-violating code, and haven't fixed > that, then yes. do you deny that they've distributed > copyright-violating code in the past? IANAL, but I'm qui

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Wed, Mar 8, 2017 at 5:54 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > it's ok julie - it happens. goodness knows i've annoyed enough people :) ... also, i have to say, i really appreciate (and missed) your insights and feedback. l. ___ arm-netbook m

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 3:26 PM, zap wrote: > I still am curious though, and this question is for Luke, > > is systemd lack security, privacy or stability? that and more. just one of the big concerns is clear violation of ISO9001 QA "software assurance" standards (also known as "scope creep").

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 3:12 PM, Wolfgang Romey wrote: > I will put something on top of it because I am getting angry: > Unfortunately Luke is or is becoming a Ethics-Extremist. Extremism > allways does harm. i've since discovered a more "understandable" version of the bill of ethics, known as

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 2:37 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/12/2017 03:56 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> no, julie, i'm not. the certification mark process requires that i >> not have any customers at all, only licensees of the certification >> mark. the only reason why i'm here

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sat, 11 Feb 2017 12:39:46 +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > ok, so, apologies for not responding for 2 days: the latest cold, which > is back again a fourth time in as many weeks, is leaving me exhausted. > again. > > tzafrir: i've mentioned this a number of times, and am happy to

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, 09 Feb 2017 17:15:28 +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > anyway, bottom line: from what i know of systemd (that includes > libsystemd0) i know the pain that it will bring people, and because of > that i cannot possibly distribute it to others. it would be a > fundamental viola

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Wed, 08 Feb 2017 11:27:55 -0500, Benson Mitchell wrote: > > As you say, different people will make different choices, but for me > swap-on-SD is clearly worth it, so if/when an out-of-memory condition > _does_ occur, I get a chance to choose which processes live and die, and > to make sure any

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Hi, Le Sun, 12 Feb 2017 11:58:52 -0800 Eric Duhamel a écrit: > [...] but I don't know how to properly split off threads into a > new subject [...] Just start a reply and change the subject in your reply, or if you can't edit the subject in a reply, just post a new message, not a reply, with the

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On February 12, 2017 3:10:07 AM PST, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Christopher Havel > wrote: >> Julie, while I appreciate your efforts at convincing our kind leader >here to >> change his mind, you're not going to make any headway. And, for the >record,

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On February 12, 2017 11:35:00 AM PST, Lyberta wrote: > >It looks like EOMA68-A20 is not going to just work. I don't want it to >end like my laptop. This is a legit problem. While the first EOMA68-A20 cards need to be shipped without delay, we also NEED to get EOMA computer cards to work with s

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Eric Duhamel: > Depending on what you mean by "newbies", I don't think they would know if > they want any particular image of GNU/Linux except the one that was designed > to run on the product by the maker of the product. After all, they don't know > the nooks and crannies of GNU/Linux and would

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On February 12, 2017 12:56:57 AM PST, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > the certification mark process requires that i >not have any customers at all, only licensees of the certification >mark. the only reason why i'm here at all is to bootstrap the >ecosystem, and to fulfil the requir

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

I don't think effort should be put into purging systemd. On February 12, 2017 2:10:07 PM GMT+03:00, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Christopher Havel > wrote: >> Julie, while I appreciate your efforts at convincing our kind leader >here to >> change his min

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Oh, whoops, I top-posted again. Apologies to Luke. I know that's one of your pet peeves. ___ arm-netbook mailing list arm-netbook@lists.phcomp.co.uk http://lists.phcomp.co.uk/mailman/listinfo/arm-netbook Send large attachments to arm-netb...@files.phcomp.

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

I second (third? thank you Boris) Zap's call as well. Julie -- I appreciate your apology, regardless of for whom it is meant. For the future: there is a difference between what you can call a "wise endurance" and a "foolish persistence" -- but the line between them is far thinner than I think most

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 12/02/17 16:26, zap wrote: > Can we all just calm down, about the systemd thing. Agree - it's easy to criticise and hard to make. Luke is doing the jobs of a whole team of designers. People will be able to install what they want on the hardware. I suggest that getting it together is by far th

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Can we all just calm down, about the systemd thing. Luke is trying his hardest, is sick and also KEEP IN MIND, HE DID NOT HAVE TO START THIS CAMPAIGN! WE NEED TO BE MORE GRATEFUL! I must admit, I don't understand the systemd arguments, but if he is set on doing it that way, then its not a big is

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Hallo, Am 12.02.2017 um 05:26 schrieb Julie Marchant: > Also, please, get off your high horse: > > 1. You're using proprietary CAD software. > 2. You use YouTube. > 3. You have not released all the PCB CAD files. > 4. You have admitted to signing NDAs. > > Et cetera. > I will put something on

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/12/2017 03:56 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > no, julie, i'm not. the certification mark process requires that i > not have any customers at all, only licensees of the certification > mark. the only reason why i'm here at all is to bootstrap the > ecosystem Well, that changes ev

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Christopher Havel wrote: > Julie, while I appreciate your efforts at convincing our kind leader here to > change his mind, you're not going to make any headway. And, for the record, > one of the reasons that Luke has trouble explaining things is because he has > As

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 2017-02-11 at 22:51:57 +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > do you know the history of hans reiser? is his software available > today? given his history, if his software *was* available today, do > you think anyone would want to install it and use it? why not? it's > free software,

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 10:20 AM, Eric Duhamel wrote: > Indeed, this us vs. l. attitude isn't productive. We are a community built > around a standards project. I think l. is hard at work to get a product out > the door with the software that is tested and working on it without > unnecessary d

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On February 12, 2017 1:40:50 AM PST, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > once the first Cards are out there, i would assume it would be >natural for people to help each other get things up-to-date and to >sort out any software issues. > > that leaves me free to focus on hardware design (whic

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > 3. Somewhat true. Right now systemd requires kernel >= 3.12, IIRC. ah - then the discussion is over, as it is necessary for the Cards to go out with the sunxi 3.

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:36 AM, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/11/2017 05:51 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> you're going >> to have to demonstrate to me that systemd has been developed (and >> deployed) in a

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Fri, Feb 10, 2017 at 12:44:42AM +, Russell Hyer wrote: > Oops, I left out some web links, here's one I found: > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page Which has tons of links and no actual content. I figure that most linked pages generally recycle content. So I'm looking at con

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 4:26 AM, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/11/2017 02:53 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> if you misunderstood and believed that you were buying a product, >> that you were placing an order

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sun, Feb 12, 2017 at 1:37 AM, Jonathan Frederickson wrote: > How can any decision-making process meet this requirement? a 20 year study involving hundreds of people was the subject of this very question. > There are > often conflicting desires between different members of a community. In >

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On February 11, 2017 7:10:00 AM PST, Lyberta wrote: >Great, and what about newbies who want stock image and don't know the >nooks and crannies of GNU/Linux? Depending on what you mean by "newbies", I don't think they would know if they want any particular image of GNU/Linux except the one tha

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Julie, while I appreciate your efforts at convincing our kind leader here to change his mind, you're not going to make any headway. And, for the record, one of the reasons that Luke has trouble explaining things is because he has Asperger's Syndrome, a form of Autism and a disorder primarily affect

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/11/2017 05:51 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > you're going > to have to demonstrate to me that systemd has been developed (and > deployed) in a 100% ethical manner So systemd is guilty until proven innocent? Alright then, unless you can demonstrate to me that the EOMA68-A20 has be

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/11/2017 02:53 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > if you misunderstood and believed that you were buying a product, > that you were placing an order, as opposed to helping reach the goal > of bringing ethically-developed eco-conscious computing devices to > mass-volume Every time some

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

> sorry, allan: that's not the case. if a decision-making process is > by "consensus", ignoring or overruling the wishes of *any* one person, > then by definition is is unethical. there is a fundamental and in > many cases pathologically-held belief that is unfortunately ingrained > into western

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 9:20 PM, Allan Mwenda wrote: > My 0.02$ > Debian, Fedora and Parabola are, to be quite honest, very ethically made > distributions. sorry, allan: that's not the case. if a decision-making proce

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

My 0.02$ Debian, Fedora and Parabola are, to be quite honest, very ethically made distributions. Sure Fedo has *cough*kernelblobs*cough* but that can be fixed very easy by swapping the standard kernel with linux-libre (You should totally do this btw) This is a change I would totally back. System

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 5:40 PM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: > On 2017-02-11 at 17:47:18 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: >> > https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2016-2118 >> >> That should be: >> >> https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2016-10156 > > uops, thanks, big duckduc

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Philip Hands wrote: > Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton writes: > >> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/24/systemd_flaw/ >> >> "Newer" versions of systemd deployed by Fedora or Ubuntu have been >> secured, but Debian systems are still running an older version and >>

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Sat, Feb 11, 2017 at 2:43 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > And this is especially bad considering that of all the distros you > offered, Debian is the most user-friendly, if you distribute *stable, > stock* Debian. That w

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Elena ``of Valhalla'' writes: > On 2017-02-11 at 17:47:18 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: >> > https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2016-2118 >> >> That should be: >> >> https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2016-10156 > > uops, thanks, big duckduckgoing-fail on my part > > (I

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 2017-02-11 at 17:47:18 +0100, Philip Hands wrote: > > https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2016-2118 > > That should be: > > https://security-tracker.debian.org/tracker/CVE-2016-10156 uops, thanks, big duckduckgoing-fail on my part (I searched for the CVE number + debian, and di

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Elena ``of Valhalla'' writes: > On 2017-02-11 at 13:21:05 +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/24/systemd_flaw/ >> >> "Newer" versions of systemd deployed by Fedora or Ubuntu have been >> secured, but Debian systems are still running an older versio

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton writes: > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/24/systemd_flaw/ > > "Newer" versions of systemd deployed by Fedora or Ubuntu have been > secured, but Debian systems are still running an older version and > therefore need updating. You appear to be in full confirmati

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton: > and i simply don't have the time - or importantly the energy - > to create a new image, *especially* based on people's comments and > reactions that they'd be deeply unhappy with it not being a "stock > image", even if all i did was make it boot sysvinit instead by >

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 2017-02-11 at 13:21:05 +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/24/systemd_flaw/ > > "Newer" versions of systemd deployed by Fedora or Ubuntu have been > secured, but Debian systems are still running an older version and > therefore need updating. Debi

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/11/2017 08:21 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/24/systemd_flaw/ > > "Newer" versions of systemd deployed by Fedora or Ubuntu have been > secured, but Debian systems are still running an older version and > therefore need updating. > > systemd i

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2017/01/24/systemd_flaw/ "Newer" versions of systemd deployed by Fedora or Ubuntu have been secured, but Debian systems are still running an older version and therefore need updating. systemd is a suite for building blocks for Linux systems that provides system and s

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

ok, so, apologies for not responding for 2 days: the latest cold, which is back again a fourth time in as many weeks, is leaving me exhausted. again. tzafrir: i've mentioned this a number of times, and am happy to mention it again, as you appear to have missed it. the key difference is massive s

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/10/2017 10:37 AM, Elena ``of Valhalla'' wrote: > Running GNOME without systemd is a different beast: I don't know if it > has happened already, but sooner or later systemd will be required > because of an *upstream* decision. > Debian fully supports a number of other Desktop Environment and w

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

It got really heated in here Dear Luke, please just ship stock versions of the distros you promised. Customers will feel very cheated if they don't get what you promised. If SystemD nukes the card as it were, then it'll be Debian devs problem not yours, as you already provide libre well document

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

> Further the files system "acces time" stamps is a big writer. With BTRFS > you have the "relatime" option (relax acces time updates). AFAIK nowadays the default is already relatime (or is it lazytime even?). Stefan ___ arm-netbook mailing l

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

> Who cares if it's supported or not, the Debian devs didn't care whether > users wanted it or not in the first place. Can have a link to some examples > of 'user debugging weird behaviours'? My own experience recently: installing systemd on a Debian testing system fixed the following two bugs I h

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

>> with the exception of fedora which has only a few backers i will NOT >> be distributing a filesystem which contains the completely >> unethically-developed and very dangerous systemd application. I mentioned systemd simply as a data point indicating that its considered normal nowadays to log to

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Yes, I would be an unhappy customer, I ordered the original debian and nothing else. And BTW Luke, if you do not want to deliver unethical products, you can not deliver hardware. There is not such a thing as ethical harware: conflict minerals, working conditions, poisoning the enviroment, ... We

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Friday 10 Feb 2017 15:29:53 mike.v...@gmail.com wrote: >o move var log to ram. This is usually enough for debugging purposes. But > it should remain easily possible to write to flash/disk if debugging > hanging systems issues. > > Further the files system "acces time" stamps is a big writer. Wi

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

2017-02-10 8:53 GMT+01:00 mike.v...@gmail.com : > > > 2017-02-09 12:03 GMT+01:00 Julie Marchant : > >> On 02/09/17 01:50, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >>> do you know the mkfs.ext4 commands needed or the ext2flags command? >>> >> >> No, but just using an ext2 filesystem instead should

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 2017-02-09 at 10:53:02 -0500, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Tzafrir Cohen > wrote: > > That is: you don't like systemd? fine. Installing Debian without it is > > rather simple: > > https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd > > Please don't spread th

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

2017-02-09 12:03 GMT+01:00 Julie Marchant : > On 02/09/17 01:50, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > >> do you know the mkfs.ext4 commands needed or the ext2flags command? >> > > No, but just using an ext2 filesystem instead should suffice (since ext2 > doesn't support journaling). That's the

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

2017-02-08 21:02 GMT+01:00 Adam Van Ymeren : > On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:54 PM, mike.v...@gmail.com > wrote: > >> >> >> Op 8 feb. 2017 16:11 schreef "Julie Marchant" : >> >> On 02/08/2017 09:46 AM, mike.v...@gmail.com wrote: >> > NAND wear is probably more linked to age than number of writes. >> >

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Oops, I left out some web links, here's one I found: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page On 10 February 2017 at 00:44, Russell Hyer wrote: > Well a quick web search (though I couldn't quite find the reference to > the mailing list reference from Andrew at Samba) shows that the iss

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Well a quick web search (though I couldn't quite find the reference to the mailing list reference from Andrew at Samba) shows that the issue is that it is a) a change from unix style services that do something well and don't overtake the rest of the system b) a system that increasingly does more (w

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/2017 06:11 PM, zap wrote: > security issues? privacy issues? stability issues? No on all three counts. The only thing "wrong" with systemd is that some people don't like it. Kind of like how I can't stand vi. But that's a whole other discussion. :P -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.gith

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/2017 12:15 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > >> I don't personally care whether or not my system includes systemd (it >> does), but I have seen no evidence of wrongdoing by the systemd >> developers. Every single case of sy

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Tzafrir Cohen writes: > On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 04:45:07PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> >> On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: >> >> > That is: you don't like systemd? fine. Installing Debian without it is >> > rather simple: >> > https://wiki.debian.org/system

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thursday 9. February 2017 21.23.19 Jonathan Frederickson wrote: > I agree with Julie here. If you tell users you're providing Debian, it > should be stock Debian (or as close as possible as is needed to > support the hardware). Likewise for every other distro. I agree with Jonathan and Julie he

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Le jeu. 9 févr. 2017 à 13:38, Julie Marchant a écrit : Where in the EOMA68 campaign did you say that you would purge systemd from the Debian and Parabola systems you distribute? parabola openrc is also a thing, i'm neither using nor maintaining it, but others are, and updates/support should no

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

I agree with Julie here. If you tell users you're providing Debian, it should be stock Debian (or as close as possible as is needed to support the hardware). Likewise for every other distro. I would be incredibly irritated to get a "Debian" computer card, only to find out that some of the software

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 04:45:07PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > > That is: you don't like systemd? fine. Installing Debian without it is > > rather simple: > > https://wiki.debian.org/systemd#Installing_without_systemd >

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/2017 12:15 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > i have some rules, julie, which are not really negotiable. i cannot > provide something to people which i *know* will cause them pain and > anguish. it's simply not possible for me to do that, even if they > themselves are not able to

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

thanks for raising this issue Luke On 9 February 2017 at 17:21, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: >> On 02/09/2017 11:45 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 5:11 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/09/2017 11:45 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> (2) putting on angband.pl's nosystemd repositories. this is "hard >> work" for me to both set up, a

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > I don't personally care whether or not my system includes systemd (it > does), but I have seen no evidence of wrongdoing by the systemd > developers. Every single case of systemd adoption I am aware of was > because the maintainers of a dist

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 09/02/2017 16:45, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: --- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 02:59:02PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: --- crowd-funded eco-consc

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/2017 11:45 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > (2) putting on angband.pl's nosystemd repositories. this is "hard > work" for me to both set up, and for others to remove (revert) just as > you say, so i am unlikely to do it... but it's an option. > for my laptop i'm using angband

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:53 PM, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: > > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Tzafrir Cohen > wrote: >> >> On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 02:59:02PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton >> wrote: >> > --- >> > c

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 02:59:02PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> --- >> crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 >> >>

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 09/02/2017 15:53, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Tzafrir Cohen > wrote: On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 02:59:02PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsup

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

If I may add my own perspective. Like most people who don't use Win or Mac, I started off my Linux journey with Ubuntu. This was 2007 or so. I eventually (through a story far too long to relate here, particularly since it's not relevant) settled on Puppy Linux of various varieties for my main dist

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:37 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 02:59:02PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton > wrote: > > --- > > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > > > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Stefan Monnier > wrote: > > > >

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/2017 09:59 AM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > with the exception of fedora which has only a few backers i will NOT > be distributing a filesystem which contains the completely > unethically-developed and very dangerous systemd application. having > evaluated its development, watch

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 02:59:02PM +, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > --- > crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 > > > On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Stefan Monnier > wrote: > > > W.r.t to logging, I've agree that you're probably better off logging

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > W.r.t to logging, I've agree that you're probably better off logging to > RAM (or to a remote host) than to a local "disk", and AFAIK that's the > default behavior

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

> I just want to make sure of something: are the EOMA68-A20 computer cards > going to be shipped with logging and journaling disabled (so that the > storage isn't constantly being written to)? I'm asking because this is FWIW, I think that journaling is a non-issue. The underlying assumption is th

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/2017 07:03 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > Yes (8GB or 32GB). That's good to hear. I've had an SD card that became unusable (as in it was literally impossible to write to successfully, even impossible just to format) after Pandian (a version of Debian for the OpenPandora) was on it for some t

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 06:57:48AM -0500, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/09/2017 05:22 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > > A test we did for our systems is to constantly (re)write and sync a large > > random file for many cycles (enough to simulate several years of normal > > operation), and generally enco

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/2017 05:22 AM, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: > A test we did for our systems is to constantly (re)write and sync a large > random file for many cycles (enough to simulate several years of normal > operation), and generally encountered hardly any faults. > > Feel free to test this yourself. Do you

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

> So what happens on a violent poweroff? Just lose data? Sure, if you happened to be in the middle of writing to the card, but this isn't that big of a deal really. People routinely take this risk with USB flash drives and SD cards. -- Julie Marchant https://onpon4.github.io On Feb 9, 2017 6:1

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Thu, Feb 09, 2017 at 06:03:06AM -0500, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/09/17 01:50, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > > do you know the mkfs.ext4 commands needed or the ext2flags command? > > No, but just using an ext2 filesystem instead should suffice (since ext2 > doesn't support journalin

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/09/17 01:50, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: do you know the mkfs.ext4 commands needed or the ext2flags command? No, but just using an ext2 filesystem instead should suffice (since ext2 doesn't support journaling). That's the standard advice for the OpenPandora. _

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 11:20:32PM -0500, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/08/2017 07:15 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > > Mike, if that article is accurate, the study doesn't contradict what I > > said: > > > >> None of the drives in the study came anywhere near their write limits, > >> even the 3,000 w

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

--- crowd-funded eco-conscious hardware: https://www.crowdsupply.com/eoma68 On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 7:34 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > On 02/08/2017 02:00 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: >> i'm saying i have to switch off a couple of flags anyway so that >> should remind me to remove journ

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/08/2017 07:15 PM, Julie Marchant wrote: > Mike, if that article is accurate, the study doesn't contradict what I > said: > >> None of the drives in the study came anywhere near their write limits, >> even the 3,000 writes specified for the MLC drives I wrote this while I was at work on my b

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/08/17 15:02, Adam Van Ymeren wrote: On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:54 PM, mike.v...@gmail.com That's debatable: https://www.google.nl/amp/embedded#amp=http%253A%252F%252Fwww.zdnet.com%252Fgoogle-amp%252Farticle%252Fssd-reliability-in-the-real-world-googles-experience%252F&idx=0

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On Wed, Feb 8, 2017 at 2:54 PM, mike.v...@gmail.com wrote: > > > Op 8 feb. 2017 16:11 schreef "Julie Marchant" : > > On 02/08/2017 09:46 AM, mike.v...@gmail.com wrote: > > NAND wear is probably more linked to age than number of writes. > > No, NAND is flash memory, it has a definite limit on the

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

Op 8 feb. 2017 16:11 schreef "Julie Marchant" : On 02/08/2017 09:46 AM, mike.v...@gmail.com wrote: > NAND wear is probably more linked to age than number of writes. No, NAND is flash memory, it has a definite limit on the number of times it can be written to (in each sector, that is). It doesn't

Re: [Arm-netbook] Logging and journaling

On 02/08/2017 02:00 PM, Luke Kenneth Casson Leighton wrote: > i'm saying i have to switch off a couple of flags anyway so that > should remind me to remove journalling as well. Alright, that's good to hear. :) Just don't forget the logging bit, as well; that's a separate thing from journaling and

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