Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated For me, I dont really like jaws. I used to, and I used to never even touch nvda and I never wanted to. But after a while of watching people use it I finily delved into it, and I dont think i could even leave it. I use nvda with offace2010 at school and it works great. Me and a friend litterily came up with this file thats about 15 kb, with 40 different reasons that NVDA in our opinians is better than jfw. Lol. Some mention certain addons, just to show the flexibility when it comes to nvda addons, and another point that hasnt been brought up here, nvda uses python which is just well, a programing language. But as far as I know, jaws went ahead and made there own kind of a framework. Well, a lot easier to use python with all the normal utilities etc that you could normally code in python, but with jfw scripting if its true that they have there own kinda scripting lang then youd have to learn all of that. I might give nvda some giant donation somed ay. Me and a friend litterily made an audio production that I dont think Im gonna share, I might. And, I might share that file me and a friend made, but yeh. Theres my point of view. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=212744#p212744 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated well, Im using it at school, and I dont really find anything missing from what I need. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=212587#p212587 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated yes, Im pretty sure the home license offers everything you would need from day to day. As I said, from what I understand, the only thing the pro license offers is remote access. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=212487#p212487 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated but the home license provide everything needed in daily basis, doesnt it?when I got jaws 16 home edition I thought it would be worse, but its great. The speed is greatly improved. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=212483#p212483 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Its been almost a year since jaws added the option to go for a home or a premium license, and I still cant understand what is the difference between them. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=212354#p212354 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated hi.From what I gather, the only thing the pro license adds is remote access, which I dont really need, so when I get out of school ill probably downgrade to a home license. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=212362#p212362 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
2014-11-30
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : Trenton Goldshark via Audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated On To a mixture of Freedom and GW Micro/AI things now...Yes, Jaws For Windows has taken over the payment plan that GW/AI had earlier, and hopefully the 90 day monthly pricing isnt terrible. I agree that besides the Math ML thing, Freedom got some catching up to do honestly with adding real features. Back to the Window-Eyes happenings, you can now read the read me for beta one and future betas at:http://gwmicro.com/betaIf you check out my Guess What Thread , a fairly nice discussion is going on bout the beta too. Will Narrator one day replace Jaws, Window-eyes, and even NVDA? It truly is a big possibility that it can. The key is for more people to use it, spread your tips and tricks for what works and what doesnt at the time, and once scripting and Braille Display support comes to Narrator in Windows 10, teach folks how it works, and how it can be used your daily life.Unless Jo Stinecamp does the podcast series first, the name he gave it, was called: Nothing But Narrator. It would be cool for a podcaster to start a series on Windows for the blind, featuring Windows Phone, Windows PC, news on Windows from a blindness perspective, even getting people from Microsoft to interview on the show. If Narrator is indeed coming to the XBox, I would like to hear how that would work!As for me, getting a Chromebook for Christmas, but thats all Ill say here about that, and create a separate thread.Keep well folks, keep well! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=196110#p196110 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I added a comment to this post.TL;DR: JAWS 16 now splits dongle owners from their ILM authorisation. You may now no longer possess both ILM and dongle on the same serial number. Needless to say I am pissed. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=195982#p195982 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated There are scripts that Ive been using from the latex access project that convert latex into spoken speech. I find that a lot more valuable, because itwould be more useful than Jaws MathML support - MathMl is meant for reading, not editing, while you can do both in latex.Last time I checked, existing plugins used stupid SAPI voices, didnt allow navigation within the expressions or only in a limited fashion, and werent translated into other languages than english.Being able to navigate in the _expression_ freely in a quite logical way as FS did it, and have it all read by your usual screen reader voice with your usual settings, is so much superior.You are right about editing; however, wheither for reading or editing, LaTeX is and will still be quite a pain. There are now popular libraries that convert from LaTeX to MathML, MathJax can do it for example. This same MathJax introduces also a third mode, ASCIIMath, which seems at first to be a good compromise for editing: allmost as powerful as LaTeX without its verbosity and its difficulty. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193992#p193992 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated There are scripts that Ive been using from the latex access project that convert latex into spoken speech. I find that a lot more valuable, because itwould be more useful than Jaws MathML support - MathMl is meant for reading, not editing, while you can do both in latex.Last time I checked, existing plugins used stupid SAPI voices, didnt allow navigation within the expressions or only in a limited fashion, and werent translated into other languages than english; at least one of these three.Being able to navigate in the _expression_ freely in a quite logical way as FS did it, and have it all read by your usual screen reader voice with your usual settings, is so much superior. You can read the _expression_ logical block by logical block rather than word by word and understand it at your speed.You are right about editing; however, wheither for reading or editing, LaTeX is and will stil l be quite a pain. There are now popular libraries that convert from LaTeX to MathML, MathJax can do it for example. This same MathJax introduces also a third mode, ASCIIMath, which seems at first to be a good compromise for editing: allmost as powerful as LaTeX (at least for the most common usages) without its verbosity and its difficulty. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193992#p193992 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Well, I havent ran across math ml yet, but it sounds to me like fs has done a great job with it, and it will be extremely usefull for me as I am in school. No screen reader can use that yet. And as aminel said, most of these pluggins use SAPI5 voices. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193994#p193994 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated And jaws is so expensive. and we all sit here and wonder why people use cracked copies of jaws? hey fs, lower your prices! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194002#p194002 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I wonder if they will update window-eyes after 8.4? and give window-eyes OCR addon? I hope so. I think window-eyes is faster than jaws is. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194003#p194003 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Hello all,While some though are sadly true, its still strange to see here no comment at all, and even nobody mentionning the only real worth new feature of jaws 16: the introduction of MathML support; and for a first trial, its not so badly made.I would have loved to have this feature only 2-3 years before, when I had still vector calculus and linear algebra courses at university. I hope that FS will pursuit in this direction, to help thousends of students struggling with math at college or university. While all the rest is more or less usless bull shit news, we have still a very nice innovation here (that should have appeared ages ago but its another discussion).That being said, I dont especially defend FS. I feeled exactly the same as you last year when jaws 15 went out. Their biggest problems remain their legendary crazyness about authorizations, and the fact that they dont listen to users needs to decide what to d o whatever you might say. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193594#p193594 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated There are scripts that Ive been using from the latex access project that convert latex into spoken speech. I find that a lot more valuable, because it would be more useful than Jaws MathML support - MathMl is meant for reading, not editing, while you can do both in latex. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193618#p193618 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated This is a really good piece that does a better job than me trying to articulate my thoughts on jaws 16s release.http://joeorozco.com/blog_my_complaint_ … scientificThough Ive not contacted technical support before and havent verified if theyre as terrible as the article makes it to be, I agree on most of the other points raised. Thoughts? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193286#p193286 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I havent contacted support enough to say either way if this article is correct there, but the few times that I have, would indecate that there may be a bit of a reason to complain. Anyway, looking at the features of 16, I really cant justified updating. The thing is that if 17 has something I really need, I will have to pay for 16 and 17 just to get 17. I have to agree about the pro and home argument. After all, just looking at the website, I wouldnt know why I would go pro over home. Does the home licence only allow me to run the full version on just one system? If I put it on my own laptop that Im using for home use and then start using it for work at a later date, what then? Why would I want to update to pro? what is keeping me troothful. LOL. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193311#p193311 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated The rationale is to charge business users or people who install jaws in schools more, because they should be able to pay more. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193330#p193330 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Hi all (and again, excuse my english):I agree, there isnt much innovation during last years. It is the case for JAWS, but it is the case for NVDA and Voiceover too (fanboys, dont kill me, let me explain).Nvda, for example, has been started from nothing, so, during its first years, it has been trying to be as useful as its competitors (in its early releases it was a kind of Narrator plus). Now its a great option, but in fact NVDA is just starting to improve brand new features. Ok, ok, object navegator is new, but in my opinion its another way to do what jaws has been doing with its 13889 different cursors. More productive, better or worse, but its intended to attack the same thing.Voiceover felt refreshing in its early stages because its use of the gestures (both in mac and ios devices) was something we all had been waiting for a long time, but Apple is not updating it with a lot of new features, in part cause if someting wor ks, let it be...In 2014, you can do more or less the same things with nvda, jaws or Voiceover, the main differences are how to do that, and I think each screen reader has to improve this how to. A whole revision of jaws could simplify its 3722 cursors, some of its impossible keystrokes and make it faster and lighter; nvda has to simplify a bit its object navegator (using it on a laptop is not the best experience at all), and Voiceover needs a new keyboard layout (dont you feel constantly as you havent enought fingers to deal with voiceover, specially in your mac?).My opinion is that all most used screen readers can do the same, but they arent optimized. For each new release, developers add a little thing to mantain the hipe without looking at the entire product experience. There isnt much more they can add but a better way to do what we all are doing in our everyday lifes (obviously, compatibility with new software releases is a good reason for updating, but Im not considering it like a new feature).Finally, I partly agree... jaws offers more productivity in some areas like working with Visual Studio or advanced text processing, its objectively true. I use jaws at work, NVDA at home and VoiceOver on my phone and on the Mac (musical composition etc), and in my experience, many people do so, cause each screen reader has its own weaknesses. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=189292#p189292 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I am rolling on the floor laughing. can you really think that NVDA can be compared to jaws? why does NVDA cost 0.0 dollars, and, on the other hand, there is Jaws who costs more than 800 dollars? Remember, its just a beta version, which means that that is not the complete version so there will be also other improvements within the next months. Also, Jaws will include some other updates, as in the previous versions, like research it, place markers, word index, excel collums, Jaws training dazy book files, and much much more, which NVDA does not include. Also, there are vocalizer expressive voices, which are paid apps, and jaws use them without a charge. Dont forget, a very and much comprehensive and super-integrated synthesizer, and better performance in Microsoft Office products.More over, many third-party applications support, and a touch cursor away advanced than in NVDA.I myself am using Jaws since 5 years ago, and feel that this screen reader is really i rreplaceable with another one.Works nice in windows 7, and Im looking forward to upgrade to windows 8.1 and try there its available features and mouse and touchpad reading.Wish you all a good time! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=189304#p189304 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated While I think that a screenreader is a personal preference thing, As for myself, Ill stick with NVDA. I just like it better. I wont badmouth JAWS, because I dont need to. Im just happy for alternatives. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=189091#p189091 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated My belief is that every screen reader has been built with its purpose, a purpose usually reflected by the title of the screen reader if you look closely enough, and not every screen reader is meant for everyone, even if everyone can use it. JAWS stands for job access with speech, which is a reflective name of the produc that has been catering to many in various corporate environments for a very long time. it was not intended to be purchased by the average consumer, a belief Ive held in my mind for many years and which is sadly a mistake Im sure everyone has made. Why they didnt decide to focus on accessibility for all rather than accessibility for the workforce is beyond me, but that is indeed the route they chose to travel. I have heard from various people that features like the infamous and widely argued research-it feature have proved useful when working in job environments that require quick information such as the tracking of shipment s or other orders customers have placed, and various other systems, and is it not possible for developers to take tools from the FS website and develop for the research-it engine to fit their own needs? Im fairly certain Ive heard this somewhere, though Im willing to admit to misinformation given that I havent messed with that tool very much.NVDA stands for Non Visual Desktop Access, though it provides more than access to desktop material or desktop computers for that matter. It is a screen reader that does its best to tackle every day computer usage and to provide it to everyone equally. Employers and employees or home business owners, techies and gamers and heavy multimedia consumers as home and abroad, productive members of society and young children looking for something to do, teachers or students, young, old, ritch and poor, NVDA has you covered on both basic needs and many more advanced necessities. Its userbase is q uickly growing, possibly owing to the fact that more people are switching to it for one, but we must also take into consideration the people who previously didnt have a screen reader because they didnt have the money to shell out for JAWS or WindowEyes or anything else on the market. If I ran into a family with a blind child or teen, I would have the parents look into getting that child a PC and have NVDA installed on it, not because I have a personal preference for the screen reader, but because it makes sense from a financial and usage standpoint. Unless the child is learning more complex tasks than the basics of computer information management and the occasional word processing that might involve formatting for school essays and the like, what does he need with a $1000 product?if the people working at corporations are still finding JAWS a useful product, or the people who use it on a daily basis because they work from home, or the college students wh o find they can accomplish tasks more efficiently with it, or the people who use it because theyve used it all of their life, what can we, NVDA users who have probably mastered just about every other screen reader companies have thrown at us over the years, possibly say to kill the production of a product that has accumulated fame for being an easy enough screen reader to learn for anyone and everyone? NVDa is not that product; indeed most of the stories I hear involve getting used to it over a period of time that differs from person to person. JAWS was a screen reader I was able to pick up a fair amount of knowledge on in a couple of days, which was good because I needed it while going to school. I doubt I would have been able to do the same with NVDA, given that most of its help resources are scattered across the web and Id have had to learn how to use a web browser to begin getting at them. JAWS now has most of this information at your fingerti ps, or one could have it sent to them with the product to their home if they so chose to have it that way.It may boil down to personal preference in some cases; I wont deny that, and that should be respected. There is, however, a set of needs met by every screen reader that should also be taken into consideration if only grudgingly. While we frown down upon the companies that seem to use uselessness to make money, other peoples lives are being made easier by what we just dont see any purpose for and which we might see a point to in the future. am I saying I wouldnt like to see more as far as screen reader innovation is concerned? Certainly not. I doubt we can blame any one screen reader or company for its practices thoug, else I could probably point my finger at apple for not doing enough, and yet most of its customers are perfectly satisfied with voiceover as is, so what can I do? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=189110#p189110 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated My belief is that every screen reader has been built with its purpose, a purpose usually reflected by the title of the screen reader if you look closely enough, and not every screen reader is meant for everyone, even if everyone can use it. JAWS stands for job access with speech, which is a reflective name of the produc that has been catering to many in various corporate environments for a very long time. it was not intended to be purchased by the average consumer, a belief Ive held in my mind for many years and which is sadly a mistake Im sure many others has made. Why they didnt decide to focus on accessibility for all rather than accessibility for the workforce is beyond me, but that is indeed the route they chose to travel. I have heard from various people that features like the infamous and widely argued research-it feature have proved useful when working in job environments that require quick information such as the tracking of shipm ents or other orders customers have placed, and various other systems, and is it not possible for developers to take tools from the FS website and develop for the research-it engine to fit their own needs? Im fairly certain Ive heard this somewhere, though Im willing to admit to misinformation given that I havent messed with that tool very much.NVDA stands for Non Visual Desktop Access, though it provides more than access to desktop material or desktop computers for that matter. It is a screen reader that does its best to tackle every day computer usage and to provide it to everyone equally. Employers and employees or home business owners, techies and gamers and heavy multimedia consumers as home and abroad, productive members of society and young children looking for something to do, teachers or students, young, old, ritch and poor, NVDA has you covered on both basic needs and many more advanced necessities. Its userbase i s quickly growing, possibly owing to the fact that more people are switching to it for one, but we must also take into consideration the people who previously didnt have a screen reader because they didnt have the money to shell out for JAWS or WindowEyes or anything else on the market. If I ran into a family with a blind child or teen, I would have the parents look into getting that child a PC and have NVDA installed on it, not because I have a personal preference for the screen reader, but because it makes sense from a financial and usage standpoint. Unless the child is learning more complex tasks than the basics of computer information management and the occasional word processing that might involve formatting for school essays and the like, what does he need with a $1000 product?if the people working at corporations are still finding JAWS a useful product, or the people who use it on a daily basis because they work from home, or the college students who find they can accomplish tasks more efficiently with it, or the people who use it because theyve used it all of their life, what can we, NVDA users who have probably mastered just about every other screen reader companies have thrown at us over the years, possibly say to kill the production of a product that has accumulated fame for being an easy enough screen reader to learn for anyone and everyone? NVDA is not that product; indeed most of the stories I hear involve getting used to it over a period of time that differs from person to person. JAWS was a screen reader I was able to pick up a fair amount of knowledge on in a couple of days, which was good because I needed it while going to school. I doubt I would have been able to do the same with NVDA, given that most of its help resources are scattered across the web and Id have had to learn how to use a web browser to begin getting at them. JAWS now has most of this information at your finge rtips, or one could have it sent to them with the product to their home if they so chose to have it that way, and can even have people who are trained in the department of teaching them how to use it properly come to their home and instruct them further.It may boil down to personal preference in some cases; I wont deny that, and that should be respected. There is, however, a set of needs met by every screen reader that should also be taken into consideration if only grudgingly. While we frown down upon the companies that seem to use uselessness to make money, other peoples lives are being made easier by what we just dont see any purpose for and which we might see a point to in the future. am I saying I wouldnt like to see more as far as screen reader innovation is concerned? Certainly not. I doubt we can blame any one screen reader or company for its practices though, else I could probably point my finger at apple for not d oing enough, and yet most of its customers are perfectly satisfied with voiceover as is, so what can I do? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Having been an NVDA user since 2011, I can say that NVDA is much better than JAWS Imho. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=189150#p189150 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Screen reader innovation is limited by the accessibility of the environment in which the software has to operate.If accessibility requires a special set of operating conditions to work, and the other applications are changing for the worse, I dont think that Freedom Scientific can do much about it.I hate to defend FS, but they are probably doing as much as they can to catch up with the changes in Windows and Office.I am more concerned about the regression in accessibility well experience when the internet of things becomes commonly accepted.There is no guarantee that the internet of things will be accessible, and if you cant operate household appliances or only buy an overpriced blind friendly product, our choices are very limited.If you think that the current state of software accessibility is bad, you have seen nothing yet. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188905#p188905 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated @Gellman: you may be right. Let us hope that networking interfaces become standardised. To judge from touch-screen printers and set-top boxes, though, you would seem to be correct, so far.JAWS Pro has no business existing; it is an aberration. The entire activation model is an insult to the customer.But as long as I own JAWS and recommend it to Windows users, I really have no business complaining. I trust NVDA users everywhere to erode FS market share to the best of their ability. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188933#p188933 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated The latest jaws 16 beta has just been released: http://www2.freedomscientific.com/downl … c-beta.aspIve been seeing this trend for a while now, but I think that this version just perfectly illustrates the death of screen reader innovation. 1. JAWS Command Search, a Built in Search Engine for JAWS Keystrokes. This actually sounds potentially useful.2. Standard Licenses Become Home Use Edition for Non-Commercial Use: good as well.3. Semi-Auto Forms Mode: pretty minor feature, nothing much to comment on here.4. Enhanced Convenient OCR for PDF Documents: this is pretty silly imo, because any specialized OCR tool like fine reader will definitely do a much better job. 5. Improved JAWS Performance with Microsoft Word 2013 using UIA: good for those using word 2013, but I havent found a compelling reason to upgrade6. Enhanced Language Support in Voice Profiles: im surprised that this feature only appeared now, as it seems like an obvious improvement in hindsight7. Windows 8.1 Reading List and people app support: how many people will willingly use metro apps if there are normal desktop substitutes that are comparable or better in functionality?8. New Research It Lookup Source for Tracking USPS Packages: time is probably better spent implementing other features/bug fixes more appropriate for a screen reader9. New Focus Braille Display Command for Panning: no comment. havent used jaws with a braille display before.10. Updated Third-Party Braille Drivers: if im not mistaken, this just means that more braille display vendors paid freedomscientific to get their drivers certified/compatible. This seems pretty ridiculous. What is the range of compatiblility of NVDA with braille displays?11. More Voices Option Added to the JAWS Help Menu. Including Vocalizer Expressive High Premium voices on the DVD: I guess this makes it easier for people to use vocalizer expressive; out of interest, how many of you use that feature?12. Improved JAWS Recovery: took them forever to add this; wasnt this in NVDA for forever?Thoughts? I was hoping for more noteworthy changes, being a long-time jaws user, but im pretty disappointed overall with this release. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188779#p188779 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I havent seen any note worthy changes for that screen reader in the past 4 years to justify an upgrade. Ill use NVDA, thanks. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188781#p188781 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
2014-09-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I completely agree with arqmeister. I have Jaws on my school computer, however, but will only take upgrades that MISD speciffically pays for. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188786#p188786 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Well, as ive been using jaws for 11 years, im sticking with it and not upgrading to NVDA. There are a couple of features I really like about this version, like OCR of entire pdf documents, the command search, and the recovery feature.I also heard that in one of the FS casts, freedom scientific is going to a payment plan with jaws. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188789#p188789 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated My responses, following the same order:1: cant comment specifically. Ive been using nvda for a long time now and havent looked back. Id say though that this is somewhat pointless, as if they have anything like a propper manual (which iirc they do) keystroke lookup is easy.2: No clue what this does, but the whole line just makes me want to sigh at them. Give us a propper portable version and maybe then well talk improvement.3: no comment.4: ah, but the ocr was so bad before, so utterly horribly bad. Any improvement is worthwhile.5: Good for you. Dont upgrade. Its a pain in more ways than I could possibly explain.6: no comment, not sure what the issue theyre fixing is.7: Good. More people will use it than you think, because a lot of people dont bother to do the research required to find those better apps.8: Cool. They need to make research it better (hows about more search results than 5!) because theyre getting smashed to bits on the extra features front by nvda. I.e: the only one jfw has is research it. Nvda has a whole community addons website full of seriously handy extras (go balloons history, go dropbox, go system monitor).9: No comment. Seems like a generic improvement.10: Nvdas braille support list (and I quote the manual):All Focus and PAC Mate displays from Freedom Scientific are supported when connected via USB or bluetooth. Both the ALVA BC640 and BC680 displays from Optelec are supported when connected via USB or bluetooth. NVDA supports all displays from Handy Tech when connected via USB or bluetooth. The Lilli braille display available from MDV is supported.Several Baum, HumanWare and APH displays are supported when connected via USB or bluetooth. These include: •Baum: SuperVario, PocketVario •HumanWare: Brailliant, BrailleConnect •APH: RefreshabrailleThe hedo ProfiLine USB from hedo Reha-Technik is supported.The hedo MobilLine USB from hedo Reha-Technik is supported.The Brailliant BI and B series of displays from HumanWare, including the BI 32, BI 40 and B 80, are supported when connected via USB or bluetooth.NVDA supports Braille Sense and Braille EDGE displays from Hims when connected via USB or bluetooth.NVDA supports the SyncBraille Display from HIMS.The Seika Version 3, 4 and 5 (40 cells) and Seika80 (80 cells) braille displays from Nippon Telesoft are supported.Papenmeier BRAILLEX Newer ModelsThe following Braille displays are supported: •BRAILLEX EL 40c, EL 80c, EL 20c, EL 60c (USB) •BRAILLEX EL 40s, EL 80s, EL 2d80s, EL 70s, EL 66s (USB) •BRAILLEX Trio (USB and bluetooth)Papenmeier Braille BRAILLEX Older ModelsThe following Braille displays are supported: •BRAILLEX EL 80, EL 2D-80, EL 40 P •BRAILLEX Tiny, 2D ScreenNVDA supports the BrailleNote notetakers from Humanware when acting as a display terminal for a screen readerBRLTTY11: I use it for... uh... one game? On one computer?12: No clue what this is. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188790#p188790 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Well, OCR is never perfect. It depends heavily on your screen resolution to work properly. However, the inhanced PDF OCR doesnt depend on your resolution and is very nearly perfect. I was trying it yesterday with an inaccessible pdf. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188794#p188794 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated One thing they definitely need to do is improve word performance at least 2010 and above. Taking an entire second to go from one line to the next in large documents E.G 500 page study books really is quite sad, and something I honestly am rather disappointed in because word is used by so many people and also considering NVDA can do this much better. Slowdowns also occur in word footnotes, outlook and a host of other things. This might partially be because of the machine Im using since I never really see the need for super fast computers, but either way NVDA still does it a lot better which is a shame for FS. I hardly ever use NVDA because I think its unacceptable that you should have to switch screen readers for these kinds of things alone.Apart from new features, these are the things that need to be worked on in JFW, not this so-called research it which quite frankly is a total waste of time. OCR... I honestly dont know because so far Ive not actuall y managed to do anything with it, probably because Im horrible at operating that feature.On my laptop I still have JAWS 14 and decided not to go to 15 because theres very little I use the laptop for other than studies and there arent a lot of improvements for that. It looks like this will not change in JAWS 16 either. Great, now I will have to get more upgrades if I actually want to get something useful. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188801#p188801 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I think they did improve word proformence in jaws 16. It was on the feature list at least. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188802#p188802 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated That is word 2013 performance, nothing mentioned about word 2010. I really hate the lag on massive word documents, especially when NVDA does just fine. @john: the language profiles thing basically boils down to being able to set different speech rates for different languages. NVDA definitely trounces jaws in the add-on ease of installation; its more difficult for end-users to install scripts than add-ons, unless the author uses the jaws script exchange programme. NVDAs add-ons are also written in the mainstream python language instead of a propriatory language, which definitely helps a tonne. I also raised the point about the realspeak voices, because though freedomscientific did tout this feature at release, it has not to my knowledge used that in its demos like FSCast. Jaws recovery is basically jaws now being able to automatically restarted if it detects that it has hanged after a while. Its also really helarious how many braille displays NVDA supports; im al most certain now that the improved support for third-party braille displays is the result of vendors paying freedomscientific.@bryant: the extra payment options will be helpful for some who cant pay the full cost of jaws upfront. It really bothers me that this was labeled a major version release. Yes, features like the OCR of pdfs and command search would qualify for major version updates, but certainly things like enhanced windows 8.1 metro apps support and office 2013 UIA improvements are arguably bug fixes. I guess thats how they make their money, i suppose.I can easily forsee myself switching fulltime to NVDA maybe in a few versions. I really like it, and it does do most of the things that jaws does. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188809#p188809 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Reguarding scripts, I hardly ever use them, as number 1 i have found no need for them, and 2 if I do use scripts, most of them are preinstalled by default. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188812#p188812 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated I think its important to realize that everyone comes from a different background. ResearchIt, in hindsight, seems pretty pointless – for people to this forum, who, mostly, are tech-savvy and have been using computers for a long while. But its important to remember that the population is aging, and of course people from the Baby Boom generation arent getting any younger either. Conditions like macular degeneration are blinding many people, and Research It provides a simple way for these sort of people to look things up quickly. For a newbie, JAWS (and any sort of screen reader) can be pretty daunting. Personally, the only Research It lookup source I use is Wictionary, and even thats pretty seldom these days, but some people probably use it as their only means of looking things up.Enhanced OCR. For many people, again, this is useless. But think about publishers who offer books in alternative formats. Heres a PDF. Guess what? Its an image. Have fun reading that, college student. OCR would sure save your bacon in that case, would it not?Office improvements are good for 2013, but I do agree with people who use 2010. Theres no compelling reason to upgrade, but FreedomScientific basically left users of Office 2010 in the dust. That is quite unfortunate.And, frankly, Im still wondering what bugs people talk about. Ive been using JAWS for years, and I see people say things like, JAWS has all these bugs! without being any more specific. I still wonder what bugs they refer to? JAWS is pretty solid, from what Ive seen; and, from someone who uses Braille and speech, sometimes in tandem, sometimes not, I can tell you that any Braille improvement is welcome. Not because Braille isnt polished, but because it is very difficult to concisely display a lot of information on, say, 40 cells (and less).People complain that there is no innovation anymore. I ask you, then, to consider the newest iPhones, announced a few days ago. What did they add, really? WiFi AC, an NFC chip, larger battery...How is that innovation? Android has had many of these features for years. Its not innovation, because it cant be. It is very difficult to take a very good product that meets most users needs and make it better. The only significant thing in this JAWS upgrade: recovery. Way, way overdo, but Im glad its there. Will I be upgrading? Considering I spend most of my time on Os X nowadays, most likely not. But I ask people to, instead of slamming everything, consider it from the backgrounds of other users. You are not the only people that FreedomScientific serves. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188813#p188813 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Im not saying research it is a useless thing to have in a screen reader. What Im saying is that it doesnt really belong there. As has already been said there are other programs which can do what research it and the OCR in JAWS do, only better.Its usually better to have one great cake rather than several half baked ones and I feel FS is currently baking too many of them. Projects which arent necessarily bad, but not the most important are being worked on, seemingly primarily. While improving performance, which helps everyone, appears to have been put on a shelf. Also, whats the point of OCR scanning a document if the program which helps you read that document is clunky? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188827#p188827 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Im not saying research it is a useless thing to have in a screen reader. What Im saying is that it doesnt really belong there. As has already been said there are other programs which can do what research it and the OCR in JAWS do, only better.Its usually better to have one great cake rather than several half baked ones and I feel FS is currently baking too many of them. Projects which arent necessarily bad, but not the most important are being worked on, seemingly primarily. While improving performance, which helps everyone, appears to have been put on a shelf. Also, whats the point of OCR scanning a document if the program which helps you read that document is clunky?As to bugs, I really dont know of any, so not sure what people are talking about there either. Apart from the eloquence crash words, which while perhaps not caused by JAWS are totally unacceptable in a synthesizer in my opinion.In short, I think FS needs to get their performance up to scratch first, then they can focus on other stuff. Although Id still prefer it if they would limit it to the primary purpose of a screen reader. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188827#p188827 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
2014-09-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : themadviolinist via Audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated The Research It feature is a good first attempt to solve the same sort of problem that the little helper apps in Win 7 and 8 are trying to solve, easy lookup for commonly needed information sources. Sadly, as Research It is often dependent upon web formats that dont remain constant for very long, its often broken, reducing its utility. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188876#p188876 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated At this point, I just upgrade as a duty, to get the latest bugfixes. There really is nothing here I actually want. Hmm, perhaps this is the end of the line for me? After all, Im now on OS X most days, and XP is my only VM and wont run this release. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188891#p188891 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
2014-09-11
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Off-topic room : severestormsteve1 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated One thing I really agree with is the pdf ocr thing. It would make things a world easier in my classes URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188897#p188897 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated One issue with FS is the authorization method. Sure, the client activator is cool, but really? And the locking code? That can be easily cracked? No way! Another issue with FS is that they use incredibly old technology like video display drivers which, in my opinion, suck. Window Eyes, for instance, does not require its video display driver to be attached to operate; it still works perfectly. Although video display drivers are good, they are quite old, and since theyre so old, why cant screen readers simply used the already installed video display drivers to read text on the screen? NvDA and System Access can do that. Window Eyes can do that. Why cant JAWS and some of the other companies which use these drivers.One other thing about VDDs is they slow down performance greatly. Thats why JAWS is slow in massive documents in word 2010 and earlier. The VDD has to send text to JAWS manually every time new text arrives and, therefore, slows down the machine because each line of text is being processed. NVDA works extremely quickly with word 2010, 2007, 2003, 2002, 2013, etc, and has almost no issues with it, while JAWS has lots of them. One of these is the ability to read symbols. It sometimes fails to recognize the symbol list, and just thinks its a graphic which has no navigability. The ribbon also slows things down. Again, the video intercept driver does all of this. This is not JAWSs falt directly; its the old technology that FS uses, old technology that they wont break away from. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188903#p188903 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated
Re: jaws 16 beta: death of screen reader innovation illustrated Screen reader innovation is limited by the accessibility of the environment in which the software has to operate.If accessibility requires a special set of operating conditions to work, and the other applications are changing for the worse, I dont think that Freedom Scientific can do much about it.I hate to defend FS, but they are probably doing as much as they can to catch up with the changes in Windows and Office.I am more concerned about the regression in accessibility well experience when the internet of things becomes commonly accepted.There is no guarantee that the internet of things will be accessible, and if you cant operate household appliances or only buy an overpriced blind friendly product, our choices are very limited.If you think that the current state of software accessibility is bad, you havent seen nothing yet. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=188905#p188905 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
