Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @66You should be more impressed with it than you are. Their code for just handling the mouse properly is upwards of a thousand lines and uses at least one almost-undocumented Microsoft API to do it, where the official pages on it decide that what you actually care about is talking to an answering machine (yes! Really! In 2020). Their code for outputting audio is well upward of a thousand lines, etc. The value of SDL and difficulty of developing it is that the APIs for this stuff are wildly different platform by platform, and on Windows there's actually no less than 3 ways to get mouse values and 4 ways to do audio output all of which you must account for if you want to support all the way back to XP. SDL has comments like "after this specific build of Windows 10 Microsoft broke this specific API" in the source code to give you some idea of how bad this gets and they've done it for at least 5 platforms as far as I'm aware.My plan for if I ever wanted to do an audiogame engine that has both an accessible UI and SDL is to cannibalize SDL however necessary to get it into another window if at all humanly possible. Or to fake out the accessibility API. But...well. "Let's not use SDL/similar and write our own" is almost unthinkably difficult in all honesty. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525725/#p525725 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @camlorn, when I looked at it I wasn’t severely impressed with what it could do outside the box. Your explanation as to what SDL actually is cleared it up for me, though. Thank you. @Ty. The accessibility plug-in is mediocre at best. You can see this in the galactic colonies. Random swipes, jumping cursor’s, and much more is waiting for you if you’re going to incorporate that into a game. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525721/#p525721 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! this post will little be long so apologies.@55, go and use C++. noone will stop you.but when you want to compile it on android or so, you should abstract it to java and write a java app that can run your game (as far as I know).also, before you start coding your project, I advise you to at least try to compile a game made with c++ for all the operating systems that you intend to redistribute your game foryou will see you need different cross compilers, somehow debuggers (the behavior may differ sometimes in sdl), and so on and so forthabout creating a window, if coding a game is all of this, there wouldn't be so much clones available.you need keyboard handling, other events, audio manipulation, memory management, somehow threading, and so on and so forth.if you think that you can do it, then go for it.maybe you say SDL has all of these, but I have to tell you that SDL is an abstraction on top of those operating system API stuff. the coding, design and implementation of your engine will be your responsibility, and thats not as easy as it seems. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525712/#p525712 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @63Frankly at this point I will probably end up just writing the thread explaining in detail why this can never, ever, ever happen short of someone having probably around half a million dollars minimum they'd be willing to invest in it and how even if it were it's not going to solve any of our problems really. I can't even begin to say how sick I am of having someone or other come into these threads to talk, yet again, about how if only Unity were accessible it would make our lives so much better. It. Will. Not. If you want cross-platform desktop GUI stuff use WX, if you want cross platform mobile GUI stuff use React Native or Flutter. But the entire perspective of Unity on how you should develop a game is actively hostile to blind devs even if the tooling were all amazingly perfect, being as a large amount of the point is that it's WYSIWYG for levels, and you're supposed to edit properties with dialogs and things instead of in code and move them around with the mouse and stuff, etc etc etc.We can either all pine for Unity being accessible (and those who are often don't understand what unity actually is, they just see "sighted people make games fast with this") or we can solve the problems in front of us. The resources needed to make Unity accessible to the point of being productive for us are literally greater than the resources required to just write a Unity clone for audiogames with graphics, several times over, and someone will have to fund the team in charge of it for the lifetime of Unity as a product, so unless you have that initial half a million dollars and a few hundred thousand a year beyond that to keep the people working on it employed and you actually want to spend that money on Unity instead of producing something like 10 or 20 audiogames with full voice acting and professionally written plots initially with an additional game or two every year thereafter, forget it and move on. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525708/#p525708 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @59 That was a simple reason I believe Unity should be accessible. There are many more, such as it being able to run basically everywhere, and an accessibility plugin having been written already. Unity also has a great and large community, so if you have a question, you're 99 percent certain to get an answer. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525693/#p525693 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @59 That was a simple reason I believe Unity should be accessible. There are many more, such as it being able to run basically everywhere, and an accessibility plugin haveing been written already. Unity also has a great and large community, so if oy uhave a question, you're 99 percent certain to get an answer. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525693/#p525693 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @61very. SDL is just an OpenGL/DirectX/other drawing system layer. It doesn't even offer UI components as far as I know.What's wrong with Pygame audio? In so far as I'm aware it doesn't crackle and it outputs fine. If the issue is no effects etc., that's not what SDL is for either. SDL is just an abstraction layer that gives you crossplatform draw these pixels and cross platform play this audio data that I already produced and a few other things like that. It's the lowest level piece of the stack in other words, you're supposed to build whatever on top of it yourself. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525679/#p525679 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @60. Good to know. If SDl's audio hasn't been improved since Pygame came along, he will quickly realize that he will need to find himself a better sound engine. That does make me wonder, how much of a pain would it be to rewrite SDL to support VO out of the box? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525674/#p525674 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @59SDL runs on everything. It's old as fuck and there's even old versions that run on DOS, I believe. In so much as he's right, he's right about that. Unfortunately there's a chance you'll have to hack it to tell voiceover that it should expose direct touch. Also, on the phones, the "we talk to the screen reader directly" hacks kinda fall down because you aren't using arrow keys and expect to be able to drag your finger around the screen, and I'm not sure if it's possible to get SDL to pop up an accessible keyboard either, so either you have to talk to the accessibility API properly or you have to have fake coordinates on things.But that only gets him a window and a way to output PCM audio. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525642/#p525642 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @55.You're obviously not reading Camlorn's replies. He didn't say that it wasn't impossible. He said thatyoucan't do it because you don't have the necessary experience to pull it off. Moreover, you overestimate how much SDL can help you. Even if the application runs on, say, IOS, how would you make sure that your UI is accessible? How would you communicate with voiceover? How would you communicate with Orca on Linux? How bout Android (Does SDL even run on Android?). What sound engine will you use. How would you make sure that it works on all your platforms? Remember, the engine has to be free for personal use. Who is going to code all the support for all the tools your engine requires? From what I have observed in regards to your behavior and topics, you don't have nearly enough skill to even lead such a project. You talk, you ask, and show nothing in terms of your capability.@57. Unity accessibility for graphics? Nah, I'll pass. Lucia can be easily expanded to support Pygame drawing functions, I imagine they just haven't done it at the start figuring that a select few would use it and thus the effort to rap the functions would largely be wasted. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525636/#p525636 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @56For audiogames, I think the lack of complexity in environments is actually a lack of good mapping tools. The current state of the art is a tile editor that you arrow around in, which is fine, except that anything bigger than 20x20 or so becomes unwieldy quickly. I think that you can do better, and one of my goals is to eventually write a semantic map language that lets you describe things at a higher level: "this is a hallway. It connects to a room to the north and south" etc. as a DSL of some sort. You could even bring in something like Cassowary arguably, but I have yet to think through what the UI around using constraints would look like with respect to making something sensible that you could script. But it's still not a terrible idea, if you can automate away the difficulties of having to count tiles and such.You can totally put pillars and stuff in the room with the player. Swamp has realistic shopping centers with isles and stuff (but tellingly the person who wrote Swamp is sighted, and did the map editing with visual tools). Shadow Rine has lots of smaller features in the middle of rooms, though being a top-down 2D game the screens themselves are square. BK3 is a sidescroller that is as complicated as sighted sidescrollers with respect to level layout even to the point of elevators near the end of the game, and I'm saying that as someone who has played lots of sighted sidescrollers before losing too much of my vision.Nothing stops you using the BK3/Shadow Rine style camera where you hold G and use the arrow keys to "feel" the map (which works much better in practice than it sounds like it ever should) for a first person 2D game like Shades of Doom, where you present a top-down map to the player. Just no one's done it for some reason. Nothing stops you having fountains or something, if you attach sounds to them and have the necessary bits to make it obvious when the player is close.But as I said above, the state of the art for map editors is you arrow around in something like an Excel spreadsheet seeing only one tile at a time. And the state of the art for audio is stereo panning without even basic filters because all the good offerings are inaccessible to one degree or another (usually because they require that you use their tooling as well). If you had a good way to edit maps and good audio, it wouldn't be hard to just tag everything with text descriptions. But since tagging with text descriptions is usually that you have to explicitly define boxes by hand on top of a grid of tiles, and the aforementioned lack of good audio options, and you get the current thing where everything is square and there's no real interesting features. My main point is: if your map editing doesn't start as a semantic exercise or with sighted-level vision, it won't be semantic enough for presenting complexity.It's just a lack of programming skill, time, money, etc etc etc. that means that the audiogaming circles don't have the resources to pull all of this together. Plus for the old stuff like Shades of Doom, etc. that was kind of the beginning of audiogaming history and no one had innovated much yet. I'm not overly sure what happened though, in general, because you'd think that we'd have 20 or 30 Shades of Doom clones given that it's been something like 15 years since Shades of Doom and audiogames in general started, but we don't. That has always been surprising to me even accounting for there being no meaningful amount of money in audiogames. We shouldn't be going 3-4 years between something as complicated or more complicated than SoD.But for 3D none of that is my objection. I agree with your objections to it, and I honestly think most of them are unsolvable. We are even on the verge of having AI narration/description in 5 or so years, at least in my opinion. But even with something like that, as I've said many times in other threads by this point, your sighted friends will have to hold themselves back for you. And what's the point if you can't have fun together, when it's a game and having fun is literally the definition? I can kind of see the point of Second Life given that people there do other things besides gaming, but I have to squint really hard and I will be honest that I have never tried it primarily because of this objection--I could probably learn the tools, but for what, I can just atend online conferences or something instead without bothering if that's what I want to do with my time.But even supposing you solved that my other objection is that communicating the orientation of objects and the player when the player is free to rotate on all 3 axis and move in all 3 dimensions is really kind of unsolvable. Even in real life when you have the best HRTF imaginable and the inner ear helping you that's difficult. And that's even before you get to "You are on a bridge and the interesting stuff is below you" sort
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! I wish unity would be made accessible rather than making engines for audio games only. My reasoning? If you ever want to add graphics to your game and your engine was designed for audio games only, you would have to go threw and add all that code when if unity was made accessible you'd just have to use it's graphics. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525626/#p525626 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @50, I don't post often, but I felt I have to concur with your pointabout true 3d physics and accessibility. My masters project was on anaccessible client for Second Life, and I believe it was the true 3daspect that ultimately resulted in the project not being as successfulas I might have hoped. The client was usable to some extend, I wasable to use it to attend a virtual conference on virtual words, whereI presented a poster on the client itself. However, I was hoping tohave proper navigation so that a blind person could be dropped into asim and explore the environment, but that ended up being very hit andmiss. You could learn the layout of an area you visit often, and soget somewhat officiant in that area, but going off and exploring newenvironments turned out to be quite frustrating. Of course I might addthat part of the problem is Second Life's utter lack of object tags,and tags are essential in a content-rich environment like second life. Someobjects do have tags, but most are just called "object" or"entity4412". However, I believe the complexity of the 3d space is what caused the most difficulty. I implemented a lot of the navigational stuff we are familiar with, wind/noise for empty spaces, echoing footsteps, a sonar system, object tags played in 3d audio at their locations, controls to turn you towards the nearest object in a specific direction, but the experience just wasn't predictable enough. At least in second life you can teleport when you get hopelessly lost, but in a game that wouldn't fly.I believe the problem lies with an accessible overview of the localenvironment. We solved navigation for the immediate area with themethods used in SOD, Tank Commander, etc, but we do not have a methodfor giving you an officiant overview of a large environment, whichmeans you will have a context problem. Audio games solve this byhaving predictable environments, every room is either rectangular or acorridor (SOD), or the readme has a detailed description of every level(Tank commander, Monkey business). What we need is a method fortelling the user that they'd arrived in a large cavern, there are 5pillars spaced horizontally from left to right in front, on the farside is a set of stairs, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is,perhaps the research of audio-visual sensory substitution might beapplicable, but that has a large learning curve for the user. (I'm currentlyemploying sensory substitutions in my research, but regrettably not foraudiogames, for diagram accessibility). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525584/#p525584 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @visualstudio,For this reason, we should do this with C++.camlorn,Dude! Hi! My name is Frenk. I live in 2020. And you? Oh, you live in the 1990s, oh yes. It was a difficult time. Wow! You need to create different windows for different platforms, this is terrible! To write a game, you should write a window that will work on different platforms.Dude, go better live nowadays. Nowadays, there are such things as SDL, SFML and others, when you can execute 1 code on different platforms. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525573/#p525573 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @visualstudio,For this reason, we should do this with C++. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525573/#p525573 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @51Stop wanting phones. You will not get them. Even those of us who have been doing this stuff for 10 years have trouble with phones.Also I don't think anyone has yet told you that for Android you will have to implement an Android-specific UI because Android accessibility only works through java, and that for iOS you will probably have to write another UI because on iOS accessibility only works through Objective-C or Swift.If phones were easy then one of the many more experienced people would have made this already.Even if you got phones you still can't share the control scheme and UI because PCs have keyboards, mice, and joysticks. PC players will almost always beat phone players. SO what's the point, unless your goal is to just make card games or something? If your goal is to just make card games or something, use _javascript_ and do it as a web page.There is nothing wrong with big dreams, as long as you understand that you need to chase smaller ones first. You clearly do not understand that you can't do this project at your level of skill, and I'm not sure what it will take to convince you, so I guess I'm done trying.@53On the off chance that's not a joke, Unity requires quite a lot of coding. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525115/#p525115 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! I need an engine like Unity, I want to make my own sound games without using any code. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/525066/#p525066 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @51, python is not recommended to program for android or IOS.although there is kivy exist, but it is not recommended to use that. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524976/#p524976 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @visualstudio,Well, do you know how we can port Lucia to other platforms? Including Android and iOS with Python? I don't think there are good ways to do this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524935/#p524935 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @49Swamp has at least player-terrain, which counts.Also no one is going to do a 3D game. It has been 20 years and we have exactly one that was playable to any degree whatsoever. I'm not sure what it will take to get people to stop talking about how xyz won't work for a 3D game. 3D games are a monstrously huge challenge that no one knows how to solve and even if you did, Bullet is too unconstrained and if you could navigate Bullet simulation then whatever you're using to do so would have been applied to the real world and we wouldn't need canes.Audiogames are only possible because of simplification. Bullet does not simplify. You will fight it all the way trying to get it to simplify enough to build a useful audiogame engine on top of. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524840/#p524840 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @46 you can contribute your own code to lucia.why do you want to reinvent the wheel from scratch?@48 I don't think that swamp has any dynamic physics stuff (things like impacts and so on).regarding 3d physics for a 2d game, thats completely true. but for a 3d game where impacts, impulses etc are required, box2d is not sufficiant. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524805/#p524805 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @45Bullet is 3D. Box2d is 2D. These are different. If you try to use Bullet for a 2D game you are adding a ton of complexity for no gain whatsoever.Even with box2d, things can rotate to not be axis-aligned. When that happens there's no way to debug without being able to see. This means that you have to turn parts of Box2d off as well. Fortunately in Box2d those are settings with functions to toggle them.You can get a 3D physics library to work for a 2D game if you get the constraints 100% right. If you don't, you can't debug what's wrong and will have objects seemingly glitching through each other because they ended up with different Z coordinates.It's also next to impossible to get any of these to play nice enough with tilemaps that you can do Swamp-style radars and stuff. If you represent every tile as an axis-aligned box you both waste a huge amount of memory and end up with something absurdly slow. By absurd amounts of memory I mean that even a 50x50 map done that way chews through 20MB or so. So to do it right you have to compile your 2D map to a geometry of some sort, and then all your radar raycasts are slower because there's a much faster algorithm for 2D grids if you're not including game objects. Then you go off and you rewrite half the collision stuff for that, and at that point you're halfway to not using a physics library because you just rewrote a big chunk of collision and turned half the physics library's features off and wrote a tool to convert tilemaps to larger axis-aligned boxes.I have been down all these avenues. When I say "maybe we need an audiogame-specific physics library" I'm not just saying it because it's fun. Maybe such a library would just wrap another one with a more convenient interface. maybe it rewrites physics for audiogames. I don't care which. But we do need a better option that solves our problems.@46I'm not sure if you're not following me because I'm using complex English, so I will put this as simply as I can.If you have never written games then you do not know what games need.If you haven't programmed for a long time you do not understand how to write libraries.If you knew enough to do this project you wouldn't need to ask how long it takes.You ask questions like you are a new programmer who hasn't written a game or done any other big projects, and have not shown us that you have the skills required.You are proposing starting over using the hardest technology you can possibly choose when Lucia can be ported to all the desktop platforms in a few days at most, and you aren't proposing any features that Lucia doesn't already have except for phone support.If you do this you will simply end up with another BGT at best because you do not know enough to do this project. Other programmers may help but only if they have experience with audiogames. I do not personally believe you understand what the community needs.You should go write some games first.Being open source or not doesn't change whether you solved problems that people care about in a good way. You will only get contributors if you solve problems in a good way and people decide to use your project.I can't put it more plainly than this. You're not ready for this project. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524782/#p524782 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @40, if I believed you, I wouldn't be claiming what I claimed in 39, now would I? My code is perfectly visible; sure, I have some abandoned code up on GitHub but I do have a project that I am actively maintaining (though development has slowed right now). And code isn't everything either. You can write code without understanding how it works or what its doing. But I think I've aptly proved myself at least reasonably competent already in this particular area of the forum. Am I as knowledgeable as Camlorn? No, but to expect that of me would be unreasonable. But he and I have strengths in our own areas and weaknesses in others, and I think he'd agree that in some ways, we compliment each others skills and knowledge. In some ways I'd say all of the devs on here compliment one another's skills. We all bring different skillsets to the table -- I, for example, bring the knowledge of hardware and other low-level programming. So what do you bring, Belov? I know your post history. I know the first day I ever saw you in here, and I remember the first post I ever saw from you. And at that time, as you remember, I wasn't exactly impressed. I wasn't even remotely impressed with Jonikster either though. But people can change. Perhaps you have some hidden potential I haven't seen. If so... I'd like to see it come out because I don't want to hold onto animosity forever, yet its difficult not to throw the gauntlet down, so to speak, as I have done, due to what I know of your past self. I will say this though: I am no cattle coder. I'll let that one slide for now but that came damn near close to insulting me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524769/#p524769 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @40, if I believed you, I wouldn't be claiming what I claimed in 39, now would I? My code is perfectly visible; sure, I have some abandoned code up on GitHub but I do have a project that I am actively maintaining (though development has slowed right now). And code isn't everything either. You can write code without understanding how it works or what its doing. But I think I've aptly proved myself at least reasonably competent already in this particular area of the forum. Am I as knowledgeable as Camlorn? No, but to expect that of me would be unreasonable. But he and I have strengths in our own areas and weaknesses in others, and I think he'd agree that in some ways, we compliment each others skills and knowledge. In some ways I'd say all of the devs on here compliment one another's skills. We all bring different skillsets to the table -- I, for example, bring the knowledge of hardware and other low-level programming. So what do you bring, Belov? I know your post history. I know the first day I ever saw you in here, and I remember the first post I ever saw from you. And at that time, as you remember, I wasn't exactly impressed. I wasn't even remotely impressed with Jonikster either though. But people can change. Perhaps you have some hidden potential I haven't seen. If so... I'd like to see it come out because I don't want to hold onto animosity forever, yet its difficult not to throw the gauntlet down, so to speak, as I have done, due to what I know of your past self. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524769/#p524769 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @40, if I believed you, I wouldn't be claiming what I claimed in 39, now would I? My code is perfectly visible; sure, I have some abandoned code up on GitHub but I do have a project that I am actively maintaining (though development has slowed right now). And code isn't everything either. You can write code without understanding how it works or what its doing. But I think I've aptly proved myself at least reasonably competent already in this particular area of the forum. Am I as knowledgeable as Camlorn? No, but to expect that of me would be unreasonable. But he and I have strengths in our own areas and weaknesses in others, and I think he'd agree that in some ways, we compliment each others skills and knowledge. In some ways I'd say all of the devs on here compliment one another's skills. We all bring different skillsets to the table -- I, for example, bring the knowledge of hardware and other low-level programming. So what do you bring, Belov? I know your post history. I know the first day I ever saw you in here, and I remember the first post I ever saw from you. And at that time, as you remember, I wasn't exactly impressed. I wasn't even remotely impressed with Jonikster either though. But people can change. Perhaps you have some hidden potential I haven't seen. If so... I'd like to see it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524769/#p524769 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @40, if I believed you, I wouldn't be claiming what I claimed in 39, now would I? My code is perfectly visible; sure, I have some abandoned code up on GitHub but I do have a project that I am actively maintaining (though development has slowed right now). And code isn't everything either. You can write code without understanding how it works or what its doing. But I think I've aptly proved myself at least reasonably competent already in this particular area of the forum. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524769/#p524769 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @Alan,I don’t see the sence for beginning developers to create games.@camlorn,The best way that I plan. Opensource. I'll start, load it on Github, and if anyone wants to, will take part. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524766/#p524766 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @44 about physics engine, I think bullet is better in terms of speed, and usage (this is what I'm comfortable with) instead of box2d.I'm not talking about constraints, because I didn't try using that at all. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524757/#p524757 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @43I actually disagree. It would be possible to make an audiogame engine that's as flexible as Unity, which wouldn't be limited in the ways BGT does. I even count online games as part of that. It could be fast, it could offer level editing UIs and stuff, etc. I have actually prototyped some of this in Electron, and have longer term plans for something that would make making huge maps easy. It's not overly hard to write an entity component system or something in the grand scheme of things, the problem is that everyone who has done so has made it for the sighted and with inaccessible tooling optimized for the sighted as well.There's a lot that could be done if someone built an ecosystem around solving blind-specific gaming problems, for example the aforementioned map editing stuff, an audiogame-friendly physics library that intentionally disables certain kinds of rotation that makes Box2d really hard to adapt, or something that solves serialization well.There's a chance I may one day take this problem on, and my above objections and time estimates come from having considered how to do this in a way that's useful for a long time. My current plan is to release a bunch of smaller libraries, slowly bringing them together into an online game of some sort, either an RTS or some sort of Swamp-ish RPG. That's a more feasible approach since a lot of those pieces can be "finished" and put into maintenance mode and many of them only take a few days of work (i.e. compressed tilemap arrays, properly solving audiogame networking for Python by binding usrsctp, etc). I've even got very tentative plans to try to turn this into some sort of semi-organized team of developers to help accept PRs and stuff so that it's not just me. We'll see how this all works out--I don't even expect anything super concrete beyond Synthizer for a long time--but I finally came to the realization that almost no one else here has the knowledge to pull all of this together and that if I don't do this kind of thing probably no one else will either.But the problem is that if you don't know enough that you need to start this thread, you probably don't understand what an engine needs and will produce a bunch of useless components. And if you approach this project with lack of understanding, you'll produce something like BGT instead, where the end result is only useful to new programmers.And if you decide you want all 5 major platforms and support for multiple languages, you've just signed yourself up for a never-ending project from hell. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524753/#p524753 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! VERY interesting topic and discussion. In any case, from my point of view, a little thing like bgt is simple and restrained by its own limitations, so it makes sense as a starting point for newcommers to the coding world, but a complete engine from scratch? What is the point? In my case, my main language is c sharp, so if I decide to make a game I'd use monogame or any stable game engine, there is no chance that someone with poor knowledge in c sharp could use a whole engine and create a successful game, so using a kind of amateur engine would result in even more difficulties. Engines are hard to master because there is not a simple way to make things work. I mean, when mono game, or any other engine was designed, their developers tried to make it as simple as possible, but you can't simplify much more some complex things.Hope it makes sense, excuse my english. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524737/#p524737 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! So!I found 3 interested C++ developers.1 of them wants to create an audio engine. Hmm, I'm not sure, but maybe something will work out! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/524661/#p524661 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @40 look at his GitHub page where he posted an operating system inn rust. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/523944/#p523944 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @Ethin,Jonikster isn't a developer, he is just starting.I’ve been in IT for more than 10 years and work in a big Ukrainian IT company.There is a difference? I think yes.Ethin! Show me your code. Not me, all of us! Or you're just a cattle coder who is trying to reason on serious topics. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/523939/#p523939 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @38, this is typical, unfortunately, of Belov and their associates (Jonikster comes to mind). These guys are quite willing to make bold claims, or false claims, with absolutely no evidence to prove them. If you want examples, search for Joniksters name (or Belovs) in the forum and you'll find old debates we used to have. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/523833/#p523833 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @36Look at my GitHub if you want to see examples of my code. Libaudioverse uses C++14 and Boost. Synthizer uses C++17 features (and fortunately not Boost, since the filesystem ts is in now) and will probably be adopting concepts in the near future (I'll be upgrading to Clang 10 as soon as I need them). I literally work at a company whose primary business is analyzing C/C++ crash dumps these days.As the resident expert on OpenAL, OpenAL is fragile as hell. Base requires that every developer who wants to use it buy a license for Base, if they're going to do anything commercial. I don't believe you can get a license that allows you to use it in your engine, then give it to everyone. Fmod also has commercial limitations, and I believe some parts of it require inaccessible custom tooling.If you are really so good that you can produce a stable, cross-platform game engine with the ability to be bound to multiple programming languages and without licensing problems because you used commercial packages in a few days, and you care enough about audiogames that you're on this thread, then go do it.Also if you read the thread more carefully, you will notice that I did say that a version of this is possible on the order of weeks, and I did indicate which requirements would need to be dropped for that.And finally, I don't want to get into a pissing contest. But there was no need to attack me, and if your goal is to prove that I am unqualified in some way, you're not going to be able to. Attack my arguments, not me. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/523797/#p523797 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @35 you are right about this.but I'm talking about jit compiler of AngelScript (not the one already made for it), I'm talking about making another JIT compiler for it since that one isn't maintained, is not optimised, etc.the reason that I said AngelScript was that BGT was using it and it didn't use any JIT compiler.about mono, I didnn't work with it at all so can't say anything. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/523700/#p523700 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @camlorn,Dude, about your post number 2.I get the impression that you've been working with C++03 all 5 years. Seriously.If you're going to program everything from scratch, I agree with you. But where does OP talk about this?For Windows, I can do it in a day.And yes, I'm able to evaluate my capabilities. I tried to make an audio engine. Just for fun. And believe me, OpenAL, Bass, Fmod, it's very cool.@Frenk Kinder,If you want a quick result, I don’t recommend this to you.You should find those who are ready to realize this. Hire programmers or find blind developers, create a collection of donations for your project.To get started, try doing this with C# or Java. Find something like Monogame, Unity, LibGDX that allows you to make games for different platforms, including Android and IOS. But here you will depend on cross-platform libraries.But not Python! Forget it for games! URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/523675/#p523675 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @34There are at least 10 JIT scripting language options that aren't Angelscript. In fact you can even flat out embed Mono and use C# if JIT is really that important to you.Angelscript doesn't even get you accurate line numbers when it fails to parse errors, and the one JIT that exists for it only offers around a 20% speedup at best.Someone did benchmarks of a bunch of things here. This is recursive fibinacci. Angelscript's JIT is #15, below even interpreted Lua, despite being a typed programming language that should be able to be compiled entirely ahead of time.I like the angelscript syntax these days, but there's a reason it hasn't taken over the world, and it's not going to. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521661/#p521661 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! also there is squirrel available, which code::blocks uses as well (embedded like lua).but the advantage that AngelScript has is that you can write a JIT compiler for it (it is hard to develop don't try to do that, you need to know about your processor and how it works). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521657/#p521657 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @31I mean, it's fine in so much as lua is fine? 5.1 doesn't have at least one relatively essential thing (I think break, or maybe continue, I forget right now) so it's kind of a toss-up, go LuaJIT for speed or go more featurefull version.I don't actually like Lua much, but that doesn't stop it from being a good fit for the problems where it's a good fit and at the end of the day there's very little else that fills the niche that it does with the level of stability and support it's got. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521655/#p521655 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @2,Listen, what's wrong with godot?I was advised this, but I don't know what it is. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521654/#p521654 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @29, true enough. I don't think Angelscript is very stable myself (and I don't like its API, it seems too clunky, though I haven't looked at it in some time). I try to go for the latest version of Lua when embedding Lua into my code; I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not though. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521646/#p521646 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
2020-04-22
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Jaidon Of the Caribbean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! 25, this engine is just a person asking the forum to create an engine for him. Its not materialised yet.Camlorn, I was refurring to post 6. BGT Lover.I'll rephrase it now. I was kind of in a rather flustered mood yesterday, so my writing was wwack. If you cut a wwheel in half, has post 6 suggested we do, it wouldn't be a wheel, nor would it surve the original function it wwas intended for. And to make something like Unity accessible, that's more inventing the weel than say, making an audiogame engine, which is making the wheel more efficient. Or, we can make something even more effective by programming an engine that can incorperate both audio and video gaming assets, IE the video, sound and 3D audio Cues. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521639/#p521639 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @28You don't want to embed normal Python for other reasons, namely that if you're going to bother you might as well go with something secure, and also subinterpreters share the GIL.I honestly wish I could convince myself that Angelscript is stable and mature, because if I was going to do this it has a really amazingly nice API. But I'm not actually very convinced it is.Of course if you go Lua 5.1 you get LuaJIT which runs on everything but iOS I think. That's literally as fast as C in many cases and it's very much a shame that development of it is dead. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521624/#p521624 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @27, excellent ideas. The Lua C API is weird (I always use Sol2 because it makes things easier). I've embedded Python once, with Cythons help so I could call my Python functions from C/C++, but the Python initialization took a good 30-50 LOC at least and then in my event loop I had to check for Python errors too -- that was another good 20-30 LOC. And I didn't expose C functions to Python either -- this was just calling Python functions from C/C++. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521601/#p521601 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @20I know the limitations. But if you decide you want to do something that has a chance in hell of running on a phone, you can't use normal Python because of the overhead and the difficulty of embedding it in anything that's not a desktop. That said, lua would probably be a better choice for that application anyway.@23C# is cross-platform via Mono. Even runs on the phones with some work, I believe. All of Unity is written in it, so the ecosystem got a lot of investment in those sorts of areas. Java is actually less cross-platform, in that getting java on iOS is very hard to do.Other potentially cross-platform languages to one extent or another include Rust, D, _javascript_, and Go. You could also write/find a sound library for Dart. And if you did go Java, you've got something like 20 languages (literally 20) that all compile to the JVM, all of which are equally as cross platform as Java.Then there's the entire world of game scripting languages like Lua. All of those are more or less popular, but if you chose one of those you could write the bare minimum in C++ to embed one of them, then use it instead. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521597/#p521597 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! Where can I find this game engine? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521595/#p521595 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @komutan,Which one? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521596/#p521596 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! So, if you can’t use it very well, what will you contribute to the project if somebody was to actually join you? You say let’s build an engine together, which implies unity and an equal distribution of work. What will you be doing? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521584/#p521584 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @visualstudio,I cannot. I hate low level. But there is no way out. Either C++ or Java then, because C# by default doesn't have cross-platform for such an engine. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521565/#p521565 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @21 how much you can use it?it doesn't matter if you've learnt that in university or anywhere else. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521564/#p521564 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @13, @14,We learned both C and C++ at the university... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521558/#p521558 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! if you want to embed python something like cython can do the trick (although you need to copy the dlls beside your game by yourself) or use something like PyInstaller and write a launcher script that can import your game and run it which I recommend.in this way you can take advantage of c/c++ while having the compatibility with python.micropython specifically designed to be executed on embedded devices and it has a version for each of them.it follows the limits of those like the size, instructions and so on (don't know if c extensions can be compiled for it or not). URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521536/#p521536 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @18If it can be ported to Windows, you can embed it as a scripting language in a C/C++ app. I'm not sure how portable it is in that regard, or how easy to embed.Problem with normal Python embedding is that it is very difficult to do and even more difficult to do right, but a nice stripped down Python might be just the ticket. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521514/#p521514 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! I even push them towards python instead of lua (for many reasons).also micropython is for embedded devices. I don't thing it has anything to do with audiogames. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521509/#p521509 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @16Whatever point you want to make, I think you failed to make it. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521460/#p521460 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
2020-04-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Jaidon Of the Caribbean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! I want to say one thing. If you cut a wheel in half, its no longer a wheel. Just a semi circle piece of useless wood. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521452/#p521452 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @14, yeah, micropyton/lua are very good alternatives. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521443/#p521443 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @13I would actually push them toward C++ over C for this. shared_ptr is a killer app for this sort of thing, if you're new to programming and have to handle pointer lifetimes (since in general leaks are better than segfaults). And in practice C data structures leave a lot to be desired as well when it comes to having to use void* everywhere.But honestly Micropython looks very cool, or Lua, or etc...the C/C++ bit would only be to host something else for the most part, if I did this myself. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521429/#p521429 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! I have to agree with Camlorn on this one. This project is far too ambitious (and wishful) than the OP apparently realizes. C++ is a good choice for something like this -- after all you get access to libraries like OpenGL, OpenAL and such --as well asthe high performance that C/C++ is well-known for (and in games is definitely needed) but it definitely is a very difficult language to learn. People don't call C the "portable assembler" for nothing, you know. It literally is the portable assembler. It is one step up from assembly language (and you can even drop back to assembly when you need to). You need to walk before you run, and crawl before you walk, if your going to get anywhere with this. Keep it as a future goal in mind, maybe, but you need to learn C or C++ and make things out of what you know first. (I'd honestly go for C over C++, given its a tad simpler than C++ in syntax and concepts, at any rate.) However, both languages can be equally as difficult and challenging, and though there are excellent networking libraries out there, you still have the massive job of taking all the libraries you have and combining them into something useful in an elegant way (and trust me, that's a pain in the ass). Your going to need to know a lot of concepts before this, such as data structures (e.g. linked lists, trees, ...). You've also got to learn networking and a hole bunch of other stuff too. Set this as a future end goal but definitely don't try it now -- your not ready. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521427/#p521427 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @6 @7 @10Must we keep revisiting the let's make a sighted game engine accessible topic? Godot is the only chance we have and it will be as hard as what @1 wants to do to finish it. The only reason that I consider that likely is that Nolan is one of maybe 100 people on the planet who has written a screen reader from scratch, and Mozilla is backing it in some capacity which means that if there is something to show for it and we get very lucky we might actually get official support of some fashion.It's also incredibly difficult to gut sighted game engines and turn them into audiogame engines. Perhaps you can find one to do this with but suggesting that it's a viable path forward for someone new to programming (or even someone experienced) is actually very much wishful thinking as well.The entire problem could be solved if the community broke problems down and solved small pieces: someone could do serialization for example, and someone else could find or write a networking abstraction. But you and many others all dream very big instead, in a place where just being able to serialize something more complicated than a map of strings is basically the state of the art.Walk before you run basically, except to this community as a whole, which keeps trying to go off on tangents and/or do giant projects, then saying "man, I wish insert-sighted-thing was accessible" rather than solving the problems that clearly need solving to enable people in the ways we can solve them.@11It's not finished. It probably won't be for months minimum. My understanding as someone who hasn't played with it is it's maybe 20% there.@8You really need to go learn C++, then come back after you've realized we're right to tell you that it's not feasible to do this in a reasonable amount of time. C and C++ are the hardest mainstream languages which exist, when it comes to making software that doesn't crash every 5 minutes. There are harder languages to learn, and weirder languages as well, but C and C++ intentionally avoid giving you the sorts of tools that make programming easy.And even sighted people have trouble making things cross platform as much as you want. Every single platform on your list handles every single aspect of this differently. Different keyboard APIs. Different audio APIs. Different distribution methods. Different networking APIs. In the case of iOS and Android you've got appstore guidelines you have to meet. In the case of Android you've got to make sure you work on older versions. In the case of Linux distributing binaries is hard to get right. I could go on for a very long while. You are proposing writing 5 different game engines in the hardest programming languages to use.And that's before we even get to the non-programming problems, like how people on computers will be 10 times better than people on phones in something like Swamp, because people on computers get a keyboard and a mouse.You should really write some games or something first as well. To my knowledge you haven't. Whatever engine you design will only be good enough to handle the most complicated problem you've solved. If all you've done is space invaders, you'll end up with something that can do space invaders. If you've gone as far as something like Swamp, you have a chance of writing an engine that could let anyone make Swamp. And so on. At the end of the day the people who can make capable game engines are the ones who understand the problems, and you're not going to understand the problems as a new programmer by thinking really hard. You either need to have made games or done a lot of other programming, if you want to build good abstractions that work on 5 platforms. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521348/#p521348 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
2020-04-21
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : ashleygrobler04 via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! why re envent the weel? i meen godot engine is already there... and a member on the forum made it accessible. i don't know how the accessibility works, but yeah. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521266/#p521266 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! at post 6 you're not the only one. i was actually hoping that unryeal engin could be made accessable sence i knew about it and its features URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521254/#p521254 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! hi,something which you should consider first.net is cross platform as well as python and many other languages are.so, without C++, you can write cross platform things as well.unity, panda3d, unreal, all of them are cross platform.if you have any comments or suggestions about lucia both the topic and the GitHub issues are available.about linux, maybe the issue is with accessible_output2 which we're using.pygame is available for linux so no issues for this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521251/#p521251 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @bgt lover,We cannot not using C++ if we are talking about a cross-platform engine.I found one sighted person who is interested in this project. I have an idea how this should look, but I don't have enough experience in C++ to understand how to implement this. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521241/#p521241 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @6: you are not the only one, I am too, for several years now.really now, instead of trying to reinvent the wheel, can we cut it in half by making something like Unreal engine usable? Won't it be quicker and better for us this way? just a suggestion, but I needed to say it nevertheless, don't know why yet, though.Well, maybe because I failed to complete such an ammbicious project my self not so much time ago. The new bgt made using .net, anyone?@1: my only advice for you right now is not to try and reinvent the wheel because it has been reinvented two many times already and it will break if we don't stop sooner or later, so add to other engines and customise them, be original, that's the key.for example, to create a game engine that has basically what you said, the .net framework has almost everything built-in, including networking and such. So what I'd do is modify an existing engine/framework like monogame, remove what I don't want like grafics and such, snap in what I'd need like custom wrappers for the networking API exposed by .net and other things. If you reached this point already, basically you've developed a game engine by and, maybe not, for your self. Note: I really simplified it down abit two much, be aware that this process could take a month as well, so just take this into account whenever you want to build it.To be really honest, I don't recommend you to use c++ either, not because I hate it, but because it's not so productive as to let you finish it in this lifetime, in my opinion. I will never willingly use c++ for anything bigger than a tiny and easily manageable application, but if I must, I will, it's not as if I'm a total stranger to it, not an expert by any means either, but I think I know just enough to keep me far away from it. lol.if this is your first project, please, for both mine and god's sakes, postpone it untill you've had a solid four years since beginner level before attempting it again. and just a curiosity, how much programming experience do you have? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521229/#p521229 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! I'd much rather see effort be put in towards unity accessibility. but then ya know. I'm a dreamer, so... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521137/#p521137 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
2020-04-20
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — Developers room : Jaidon Of the Caribbean via Audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! As someone who isn't involved deeply in the tech industry like Camlorn, I can tell you by just reading your points this is a highly ambitious project to say the least. The moment you involved IOS/mac you complicated things. You can't have your cake and eat it as well. Let's just say you managed to pull something like this off. How would a programme with a UI initially designed for a Mac work with a $100 dollar Blu ultra budget phone? Aside from the constraints of development, you have other small things to consider. As Camlorn said, for one, pretty much only 3 to 5 people who are active on this forum should be able to pull it off. If you want, you could look into Angelscript, play around with it and see if you can wip up a BGT2. Or just try and add stuff to Lucia to include Linux support. Remember Lucia is open sourced. So if you have your code, you can submit it to them and hopefully get it approved. Unless you have no code... URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521129/#p521129 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! @3I'm not thinking grand. I'm estimating only the requirements you have stated, exactly as you have stated them. You have no idea how hard this is, especially the iOS and Android points, which run into a number of brick walls that cost money and sometimes have accessibility issues, and networking, which is extra hard to do in C++ for a variety of reasons that basically boil down to C++ people caring about performance over programmer convenience.And as I said in my last paragraph, if you drop being used from multiple languages you can cut the 3 month estimate in half. That's honestly almost the hardest part of it, given how difficult it is to make good C APIs that bind to everything cleanly and without a lot of overhead.Use a higher level language. Target the desktop platforms. You will be much happier and also end up with something usable at the end of it.Have you done anything big in C++? If you haven't, trust me, there are reasons people avoid it like the plague. The C++ development experience is you writing past the end of an array and being happy that your program crashed without an error message because the alternatives are that it overwrote seemingly unrelated data and crashed several functions away from the broken line with no way to easily track it back. C++ is *really* 5 times harder than Python or Java or C# or whatever other higher level language, and doing stuff in it will *really* take several times longer, easily taking simple-seeming week-long projects to months. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521118/#p521118 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! camlorn,You're talking about something grand. Does everything I described take so long? Really? URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521112/#p521112 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: Let's make an audio game engine!
Re: Let's make an audio game engine! I have been doing C++ for upwards of 5 years. Given the constraints of needing to work on all platforms, having all the features you want, and somehow being usable from other programming languages, I would need a minimum of 3 months of full time work (as in 40+ hours a week). This would get Windows, Mac, and Linux. If you also want the phones, iOS is going to require developing from a Mac, and Android is going to require including java components and writing JNI bindings, so add an additional month and a great deal of frustration and possibly buying laptops for everyone involved in the project who doesn't have a Mac.If this is your first C++ project, don't bother; do something easier first. C/C++ is incredibly hard to learn, and you will produce a useless mess if you try to do this as your C++ learning project.If all you care about is Linux, go fix whatever is broken on Lucia. I know SDL runs on Linux fine. Unless there's something really special about Lucia, you should be able to port whatever needs porting in a week at most.Finally, you aren't really going to be able to get something usable from all languages going on anyway. Defining dynamic game objects with whatever properties via a C API from Python, for instance, means that you're taking a 5x performance hit or worse over just using a normal Python object. Additionally just what a language can bind to varies, for example Python has the global interpreter lock causing issues, Java requires writing bindings in C and getting reference counting right (though there may be more modern projects), Go has a weird threading model that means needing to figure out how to pin threads reliably, everything on the Erlang VM requires doing even weirder things (not that you'd write an audiogame in Erlang), etc etc etc. The list goes on and on. So you'll need experience in all of the languages you might ever want to use it from to make sure that whatever you produce can in fact be used from all of those languages.But perhaps you mean port as in translate line for line. If someone is going to translate line for line, they won't bother, they'll just write the engine in that language in the first place.For an example of something that's very difficult, you can't easily write an object in C/C++ and make a Python class that inherits from it. It can be done, but it is very hard and if you don't do it exactly right it is also very slow. Other languages have similar issues.Don't get me wrong--I admire the vision. But it's impractical in the extreme. I can only think of 4 or 5 people on this site that would be able to tackle it with any chance of success, and the time it requires guarantees none of them ever will. There's a reason Nolan (who also wants this) decided to try to make Godot accessible instead. If you know C++ very well and don't care about other languages you can cut the time in half. If you decide to do it in one higher level language you can cut the time down to a 5th or less. I could get a Python engine with all of these features and the 3 PC platforms going in maybe 3 weeks of intensive work. URL: https://forum.audiogames.net/post/521106/#p521106 -- Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
