Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Well, I dont believe the Impasse has changed here, sinse I still intrinsically dont see open parser as anymore inherently beautiful and likely Sebby does not agree with my functionalist control approach . However, this is just to say that Hadean lands now has a db page. Whatever my personal feelings on Parser, I do think it is important to highlight a genre of games which is so inherently accessible and support those developers working in it who want reasonable financial compensation for their work, (note the word reasonable! here Mallinche). This is why if interpreters have pages and links to the correct indexes of the If archive for their format, and why commercial if games need entries. if anyone can think of anymore accessible commercial if (I believe Scot adams did something at one point), let me know. Ill also likely give Hadean lands a try at some point myself (sinse for 5 usd why not), albeit I am currently on a big choiceofgames kick. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=198034#p198034 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman OK, so Ive taken the plunge and got Eamon Deluxe up and running. Putting aside my instant puke reaction to having to run qbasic under Linux, which I didnt even notice while I was running it under Windows--but to be fair, its possible, and hes done a nice job with it--I see what you mean about the elaborate nature of A Runcible Cargo, story-wise. However, it (at least from a few minutes playing) would appear that you are still constrained to the Description then objects narrative, and you do still appear to have the same limited three-word parser, i.e., youre sort of playing a really interesting IF game using a combat engine.Now dont get me wrong, its interesting and Im glad you pointed it out to me. Certainly I have nothing against peoples choice to play Eamon if they like this style of gameplay. But if anything this little piece of Eamonised IF highlights very strongly the clash between a closed parser and a n excellent story. What if this had been written using a conventional IF system? Would it not have been a much sweeter, smoother fit?As to Eamon Deluxe itself, well now Ive got it installed under dosemu, I might as well relive the distant past. Some of this stuff is offensively retro, but it still deserves recognition for the style, the genre, and perhaps a gold star for being written in BASIC. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194245#p194245 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Wouldnt runcible cargo have been better with an open parser? short answer, no! All those object manipulation moments (like opening the doors in the campus or using the train), much more confusing and less smooth.This is what I meant in the above post, it seems If purists just see something inherently good in an open parser because it is an open parser, which I personally dont get, sinse for me the purpose of any in put is to facilitate my interactions with the game. I enjoyed Runcible cargo for the writing and the atmosphere, the mix of classic Eamon style combat but with exploration and objects thrown in with a lot of different places to explore and even a story to follow. To me, lacking an open parser isnt a point against runcible cargo, or eamon in general. In terms of Eamon generally, well the system isnt perfect. Combat gets rather grindy in many games, and indeed in the original conception it wasnt even possi ble to improve your character or his/her weaponry through multiple adventures and collecting treasure, though Eamon deluxe changes that. The system is also limited by the character display length, and the fact that actions such as talk dont have in built verbs which means a lot of standard games devolve to dungeon hacks with treasure grabbing. Of course, Eamon also depends heavily on the authors own skills, sinse if the author only describes a dull environment you get a dull game. for example hidden objects dont appear as There is an x here and synonims can be used to refer to them, but obviously you have to have an author use these facilities of the system or otherwise it is obvious that your walking around a bunch of rooms with placed objects, and not all authors did this (especially for those really old games written in the very early 80s with quite primative forms of the Eamon program). The combat in Eamon also needs input from a d ecent author to be interesting in its own right, and could definitely do with some more tactical options.That being said for me, most Eamons, even the very generic dungeon hacks are more fun than open parser If just because I enjoy the exploring and the randomness, and find the limited parser much more preferable in puzzles, indeed if you want to see the strength of the limited parser in many situations where an open parser would be hell, try thrors ring from the Tom Zuchowski adventures set. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194274#p194274 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Ill play this thing right through to the end, just for the sheer hell of it, and its a fun game. But really, yes, I think weve reached some sort of an impasse-type situation. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194301#p194301 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Hi,This is why I like the stuff from Choice of Games, because it is impossible to cheat. The only way to undo a choice, is to restart the hole adventure again. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194181#p194181 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman @Briant That ease of cheating by using the back button is not inherent to gamebooks, accept those that are basic html such as the Lone wolf or Arborell ones. Any gamebook that has sufficient programming disables the back function in some way, and neither the Choiceofgames nor ffproject versions have that problem. To be honest though even for those that do I would myself say if your using the back function your not really playing as you should, anymore than typin typing a cheat code into a game like Shades of Doom or Q9 is an issue with that type of game.What I personally tend to do is pick a save point (usually by adding a page to my favourites if the book is html), and going from there. If I die, I start from that savepoint again, just as I would saving any game that has that function (choiceofgames included). I also limit myself from saving too often. That is how you get your consequences, and believe me in gamebooks like choiceofgames or even in the Arborell book Windhammer when played properly consequences are a very distinct issue, indeed one reasont the Choiceofgames are so good is that the consequences with their stats system are sort of extreme! @Aaron, I like the fact in the longer Choiceofgames and Hosted games titles like zombie exodus there are now savepoints. While as I said Im not a fan of cheating, starting 500 odd sections worth of choices again is a bit of a put off, and was one of the flaws of much of the original ff series by Steve Jackson particularly sinse those were very harsh on deaths), imho saving now and again is a major advantage sinse its less likely to make the player give up when everything goes to hell.@Sebby, I consider the sfx of audio dramas to be a part of the entire production which may be good or bad both on its own merrits, but may also have an affect upon the larger hole depending upon its quality, Eg, The music here was so destracting it didnt fit th e story and I lost all the tention I fully well agree that there are some great examples of open parser if, however my issue was more with the concept of the parser generally than specifically good or bad examples. I just dont get this inate beauty your talking about or how streight forward inputs limit player action intrinsically. That is like claiming your program is worse because instead of having all your options on the screen all the time in a huge confusing mess, you stick them in a preferences menu where the user can find them. Its not a question of limiting the players intentions obut of letting the authors intentions be clear to the player, and no, I just dont agree on this inate beauty you speak of sinse to me the beauty comes from the authors intention communicating clearly and this unendingly open parser seems to obscure rather than clarrify that intention (see my above crowbar example). To me the controls for an If game are no different in prinsiple to those for an action game. Supposee you were reading the instructions to a newly released action game and the author said well the buttons to move, run and shoot are some of the keyboard keys but I wont tell you which, you have to guess, oh and they change every level That is often what an open parser feels like to me where as a closed parser or choice based system is more like exactly what youd expect, Run with the cursers, shoot with the Z key and jump with the C key This is one reason why in the mainstream world I suspect text based If morphed into point and click graphic adventures, sinse graphic adventures however obscure their puzzles (and Monkey Island had some dam obscure ones), had a far more streight forward parser which let the player explore alternatives for interaction rather than be stuck guessing.I freely admit as I said in the obscurity puzzle stakes, as I personally most enjoy the exploration of the environment and continuance of the plot, sitting in one location trying alternative solutions with a limited set of objects doesnt appeal to me half as much, however I do think the problem of open parser is a more fundamental one than that, and part of the issue indeed is that for too long If purists and hardliners have rather dominated the genre claiming that anything that doesnt resemble Infocom isnt Interactive fiction. Btw Sebby, if you ever get the chance to play Eamon deluxe, check out Runcible Cargo for a very! excellent example of an open parser game, and one which, like the Choiceofgames is great on its own merrits. The author of Chronicles of Arborell calls what he does Interactive Fiction, and given the quality of his writing, history and world and the great work hes done on gamebooks like Windhammer Id certainly not disagree, though i do wish hed get on and write some more . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194184#p194184 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Fair enough Dark, we definitely disagree on the virtues of open parsers. At least to me, the open parser is basically a contract by the game author to do no evil to the players fundamental wishes, which just clearly isnt how you experience it.I will check out Runcible Cargo when I play Eamon again; its been a very long time indeed and Ill probably have to dust off my memory and also presumably the XP VM … but I will try and remember to try it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194208#p194208 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman I think Sebby the ultimate difference is a difference in opinion about what the purpose of a parser is and ultimate the nature of interactive fiction. I myself never played any if before 2004, and only discovered interactive fiction after playing textual browser games such as Logd, Ashes of Angels, and Sryth. Indeed I only played any games with text after a lifetime of playing graphical console games. Thus for me, any form of if is just another game, albeit a very good one when done well, and like any game, it has controls for interacting with its worlds and objects. Of course, I dont use the term game here as a derogatory one, I love games, I love exploring, progressing through the environment and story, I love working out challenges and then overcoming them to explore more of the world, and I love being presented with things I didnt expect and having to think on my feet so to speak. However if you have a problem with controls to a game , you view it as a design issue. To you, and to other if purists If seems to be slightly different to a standard game, other than in the obvious, particularly in the form of Parser. I admit I dont get this difference myself at all, maybe its one you have had to have grown up playing If to get. As regards runcible cargo, yep, it is awsome! It was written for the eamon deluxe system in 2012, and is one of the best games in text Ive ever played. Unfortunately the Eamon deluxe creator, Frank black hasnt been around sinse late last year and weve not heard anything more about the progress of the program, which is a shame, especially if things like Runcible cargo could be made with it. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194216#p194216 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Mmm, I thought the whole point of leaving open the parser was that you *didnt* get the impression that you were trapped inside a limited mechanic? Obviously, the parser and the player disagree. I dont accept that limiting the player is the answer. No justification will ever convince me of the need to constrain the player for their own benefit. So what if its true? Its still wrong. Yes Dark, you hit the nail on the head re motive miscalculation. Youve clearly run into similar circumstances. Most recent example in Divided We Fall: if you as a Catholic nurse decide in favour of blackmail to reach your ends, offering to keep your company in exchange for better recognition, you become a willing prostitute. Thats not what I asked for, and not what I wanted. I accept that life naturally proves ambiguous, but definitely not to that extent. And yes this is as much about good game design as anything, but I think it illustrates the problem of keeping a good story together while offering a limited selection of choices.I think this discussion once again says that different things work for different people. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194118#p194118 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Fundamentally Sebby, I think we approach the problem differently. I think of interactive fiction (any interactive fiction), as a game, a computer program. It is not a human, and no amount of if purist propergander will convince me of the full natural language syntax making it one. However complex your inputs, your still dealing with a machine that has no concept of the story its trying to tell or the situation its trying to convey, anymore than a computer program giving you an interactive audio environment of a forest knows what a tree is.This means I tend to think of inequities as problems with the program not with the authoring of a peace of fiction, rather the way that you would blaime the programming specifically for control issues in a game, but blaime the over all conception of the design if say the atmosphere is jarring. Usually in Parser based If I have found myself trying! the correct solution but perhaps not in the language the author inten ded. You can cryticize the author and say oh well they shouldve used correct synonims), but ultimately nobody can think of everything. After all its fairly easy to have your game respond the same way to enter door and in, slightly less easy to consider that someone using the term prye door open with crowbar, might be the same as the authors intended (and rather clunky), force crowbar into door This is what I mean. I dont think of gamebooks as limiting the players freedom sinse how limited they are depends upon the author, so much as giving clear program instructions on how to proceed in the game. Playing guess the verb or guess the phrase always feels to me not like finding the solution to a puzzle, so much as simply typing instructions into an unworking program. This is as I said why to me limited parser, ie, clear instructions is the best, sinse why muck about with all the alternatives of opening a stuck door with a crow bar when use crowbar with door will adequately express the players intention to the program, and allow her/him to try their solution and continue with the actual interactive fiction unhindered.I do think your correct on your differences of opinion idea where obscure puzzles are concerned, sinse while I personally think authors who have these bizarre turns of logic as in the Infocom games simply frustrate my efforts to explore the world and interact meaningfully with the story, there isnt particularly any rational reason for why. However, even obscure puzzles are imho better with a limited Parser sinse if a player knows they can try alternatives, theyre probably more likely to keep guessing rather than shrug and just put the game down to being overly obscure. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194125#p194125 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
2014-11-06
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : bryant via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman The thing I dont like about gamebooks is that it is way to easy to cheat. What I mean is that if a player is not happy with the choice he/she made in the gamebook, all they have to do is hit the back button on their browzer to undo that choice and pick a different one. This would allow them to easily win the game. This is why I dont really play gamebooks, because I want the choices to actually result in consequences, and they dont when I can just hit the back button to undo my previous choice. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194126#p194126 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Mmm, interesting Dark. Do you also judge audio dramas by the quality of their sound effects? It seems to me that you are unwilling to acknowledge the ideal of parser IF , if not the implementation. To me, IF is no different from any other illusory craft; its greatest when the player and the author of the program are in complete accord. Of course that doesnt happen 100% of the time but I think most experienced IF players find that it happens often enough that of course we know what was intended. Now whether thats adequate for you or others is a matter of opinion, but I see closed parsers and Point and click as fundamental violations of player intent if not actually then in spirit. I do acknowledge that there are *excellent* examples of the latter, but they are IMO almost always overshadowed by the almost innate beauty of well-executed IF. The only w ay I can imagine this not being the case is if your experience with IF has been so very poor that you really havent enjoyed the advantages of an open parser, which could only be true if your inputs were simply way too advanced and/or unguessable to have been of any use to the game ( yes, I said game, not program ). Now, I have played IF for many, many, many years and I do accept that there is a certain lingua franca of IF that one cannot just guess, and for what thats worse I think this has to change, in keeping with ideals. But Ive yet to see anyone disagree with the idea of tuning computers for use by players, instead of the other way around. Thats how IF started--when someone wanted to express their experience to their children about cave exploration. Perhaps you just dont agree with that ideal, or consider any artistic merit outside of the in-game pros e to be beside consideration--I dont know, Im just guessing.Anyway, JMO. Im sure this will continue to be something Ill just never fully understand. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194131#p194131 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Mmm, interesting Dark. Do you also judge audio dramas by the quality of their sound effects? It seems to me that you are unwilling to acknowledge the ideal of parser IF , if not the implementation. To me, IF is no different from any other illusory craft; its greatest when the player and the author of the program are in complete accord. Of course that doesnt happen 100% of the time but I think most experienced IF players find that it happens often enough that of course we know what was intended. Now whether thats adequate for you or others is a matter of opinion, but I see closed parsers and Point and click as fundamental violations of player intent if not actually then in spirit. I do acknowledge that there are *excellent* examples of the latter, but they are IMO almost always overshadowed by the almost innate beauty of well-executed IF. The only w ay I can imagine this not being the case is if your experience with IF has been so very poor that you really havent enjoyed the advantages of an open parser, which could only be true if your inputs were simply way too advanced and/or unguessable to have been of any use to the game ( yes, I said game, not program ). Now, I have played IF for many, many, many years and I do accept that there is a certain lingua franca of IF that one cannot just guess, and for what thats worth I think this has to change, in keeping with ideals. But Ive yet to see anyone disagree with the idea of reconciling computers for use by players, instead of the other way around. Thats how IF started--when someone wanted to express their experience to their children about cave exploration. Perhaps you just dont agree with that ideal, or consider any artistic merit outside of the in-game prose to be beside consideration--I dont know, Im just guessing.Anyway, JMO. Im sure this will continue to be something Ill just never fully understand. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194131#p194131 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Hello,I have also struggled with parser based games, in the end resorting to walkthroughs which isnt really the best way to play. I did manage to get through dreamhold and Alien Abduction though, but for the rest, Ive always had to use a walkthrough, which is why I prefer gamebooks as while there isnt as much freedom, you are constantly either progressing or learning from your mistakes. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194034#p194034 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Well Aaron you could say Parser games have more freedom, you could equally say gamebooks have no frustratingly ambiguous interaction methods. Ill agree on learning from your mistakes in gamebooks, though I do miss the full exploration and examination of objects, albeit as I said I personally prefer this in a limited Parser system like Eamon or something like Inquisitor (if we forget that its an audio game for a second), sinse it has less ambiguity. I will say I did play some very good parser games back when i played if seriously. Worlds Apart I never got stuck with sinse all of the questions and what to do were a matter of looking at the world around you and following logic, the wonderful writing also helped hugely. Babel was another, indeed Babel reminded me rather of Dreamhold sinse you are trapped in a research base with no memory but find glowing objects you can enter to see scenes from the past. The puzzles were on the hole again fairly logical with the world around you, albeit one of them I found I needed the hints for. Paul Obrians earth and sky games were great, albeit I do wish the combat had more propper mechanics, and his game Lash was fantastic as well, one of the few occasions in an If game where I actually found myself being genuinely shocked and emotionally genuinely invested in what was happening. I will admit I gave up largely on parser games sinse I became sick of finding myself getting stuck in some stupid way in two out of every three games I tried, especially those that had exceptional writing and a really interesting world, but I could find no way to progress, where as gamebooks as you said are generally always possible to get through with enough persistance, accepting the likes of Hellfire from the ffproject of course . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194048#p194048 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Well to be honest I dont know how much Howard Sherman knows or understands about anything that isnt part of the wonderful world of Howard Sherman, so I wouldnt put too much store by what he said.Regarding interactive fiction though Aaron you raise an interesting debate. Its one weve had on the forum before but its an interesting question so I dont mind discussing it again. I can see where your coming from with the ease of interaction feel of the Choiceofgames, or indeed of any gamebook come to that, sinse you dont need to worry about hit dwarf with spungecake type puzzles, but just flow through the story. I dont however agree that the interaction changes the fact that what your reading is fiction. Any traditional parser game has to have the same qualities as a good story, engaging setting, atmospheric writing etc, even if it doesnt present as a traditional story style narrative the way something like the Choiceofgames do, though even that is arguable with games like Steven Granades Photopia. Change of interaction method however doesnt intrinsically change a games category in most cases. An arcade game like however mole no more which uses the keyboard is just as much an arcade game as Audio defence, even if audio defense has a unique interaction method with its physical turning.I also dont like your use of adventure game sinse your essentially swapping one firm category with very distinct boundaries, ie, interactive fiction, for another with very broad boundaries whos qualities arent well defined. After all what exactly is an adventure game anyway, what makes parser games like Zork adventure games not interactive fiction, and what is the boundary between the two. I will confess, I use the term Adventure game in the database as a sort of catch all category for stuff that does nt particularly fit elsewhere. Games that arent focused around action, have a high focus on story and atmosphere but arent interactive fiction, and dont have mechanics and stats like an rpg. Take Sarah, its first person but certainly not fps, it has action elements but its not say an action game like Hunter, it has an inventory and spells but its not an rpg, and it has puzzle elements but is not interactive fiction. so it winds up as adventure games Myself, Id suggest interactive fiction covers any textual story with which you can interact and where the chief gameplay method is interaction with that story. Within that category are parser games, and gamebooks, which distinguish the interaction method, ie, typing in commands or just making choices. Heck, even that is a bit broad sinse the games could have menus, limited parser, full inform style parser or whatever, not to mention rpgs like Kerkerkrui p or gamebooks like the fighting fantasy stuff with rpg elements that might also be very close to an interactive fiction story as well, heck, several Eamon games have if style puzzles, even with a limited parser and the need to indulge in a lot of combat.I do agree interactive fiction is changing as a term for all if purists (of which I believe Sherman is one), just want to say interactive fiction is just stuff like Zork with a full parser and nothing else However rather than saying this is! interactive fiction and this is not! Id prefer myself to adopt interactive fiction as a pure umbrella term and then split off the categories of different styles of games within that larger genus.Btw, questions of definition to philosophy graduate are sort of red rag to bull . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193914#p193914 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Well to be honest I dont know how much Howard Sherman knows or understands about anything that isnt part of the wonderful world of Howard Sherman, so I wouldnt put too much store by what he said.Regarding interactive fiction though Aaron you raise an interesting debate. Its one weve had on the forum before but its an interesting question so I dont mind discussing it again. I can see where your coming from with the ease of interaction feel of the Choiceofgames, or indeed of any gamebook come to that, sinse you dont need to worry about hit dwarf with spungecake type puzzles, but just flow through the story. I dont however agree that the interaction changes the fact that what your reading is fiction. Any traditional parser game has to have the same qualities as a good story, engaging setting, atmospheric writing etc, even if it doesnt present as a traditional story style narrative the way something like the Choiceofgames do, though even that is arguable with games like Steven Granades Photopia. Change of interaction method however doesnt intrinsically change a games category in most cases. An arcade game like however mole no more which uses the keyboard is just as much an arcade game as Audio defence, even if audio defense has a unique interaction method with its physical turning.I also dont like your use of adventure game sinse your essentially swapping one firm category with very distinct boundaries, ie, interactive fiction, for another with very broad boundaries whos qualities arent well defined. After all what exactly is an adventure game anyway, what makes parser games like Zork adventure games not interactive fiction, and what is the boundary between the two. I will confess, I use the term Adventure game in the database as a sort of catch all category for stuff that does nt particularly fit elsewhere. Games that arent focused around action, have a high focus on story and atmosphere but arent interactive fiction, and dont have mechanics and stats like an rpg. Take Sarah, its first person but certainly not fps, it has action elements but its not say an action game like Hunter, it has an inventory and spells but its not an rpg, and it has puzzle elements but is not interactive fiction. so it winds up as adventure games Myself, Id suggest interactive fiction covers any textual story with which you can interact and where the chief gameplay method is interaction with that story. Within that category are parser games, and gamebooks, which distinguish the interaction method, ie, typing in commands or just making choices. Heck, even that is a bit broad sinse the games could have menus, limited parser, full inform style parser or whatever, not to mention rpgs like Kerkerkrui p or gamebooks like the fighting fantasy stuff with rpg elements that might also be very close to an interactive fiction story as well, heck, several Eamon games have if style puzzles, even with a limited parser and the need to indulge in a lot of combat.I do agree interactive fiction is changing as a term for all if purists (of which I believe Sherman is one), just want to say interactive fiction is just stuff like Zork with a full parser and nothing else However rather than saying this is! interactive fiction and this is not! Id prefer myself to adopt interactive fiction as a pure umbrella term and then split off the categories of different styles of games within that larger genus, though unfortunately the interactive fiction category on the db probably will have to stay for reasons of not conusing those who expect interactive fiction to mean zork..As an interesting fact, Im actually& nbsp; considering a new category to distinguish games like inquisitor, Chillingham, Codemane Cygnas etc from other adventure games, perhaps interactive audio, or maybe audio adventures (after all the point and click object based games like Monkey Island, Loom and Broken sword that replaced If in the mainstream were called graphic adventures).Btw, questions of definition to philosophy graduate are sort of red rag to bull . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193914#p193914 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman I dunno, all Ill say is that Hadean Lands is making me pine for more traditional contemporary IF. CYOA is all very wonderful but really, it works best when the third-person perspective holds together loosely enough despite slight variation. IF, for me, all that object manipulation, is still deeply immersive and the real problem is the lack of sufficient quantities of the good stuff.Having said this I played Choice of Romance recently and was quite astonished by how much depth that had; by the time I was finished I felt decidedly that I was a resident of that fair kingdom. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193915#p193915 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
2014-11-04
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Trenton Goldshark via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Hmmm.I wonder then, what which category would Choose Your Story works fall under? I think Im starting to enjoy those!Same with stories from Delight Games. Which Saga Volume 1, is awesome! And I only finnished it once! Gonna be sure to play that one again.Wizards Choice Volume 1 isnt bad either. Ah yes, the Fighting Fantasy game books.I wonder if Dark ever saved a copy of that podcast he did on those? The first ever time I got in to Interactive Fiction, was thanks to WinTads, version 1.34. As for inform, thats thanks to WinfrotzTTS, back in 2005 I do believe.I did try playing demo versions of Howard Shermans games, but well, it was, um, OK I guess... Even HTML TADS was a bit easier via a screen reader than his games, honestly. Til this very day, I still do not mind playing Frotz or TADS games, un der a command Prompt/Terminal window. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193929#p193929 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman @Trenton, Yep, certainly the ff project podcast is still around Get here from sendspace Regarding Choiceofgames as I said Id count those as gamebooks, though perhaps there should be some sort of distinction between gamebooks that use the rpg random combat and dice the way ff style gamebooks do, and those that work simply on choice. I can understand your idea on console windows, though for me I dont mind using winfrotz or Winglulx, or indeed Wintads. Indeed, back when i first discovered traditional parser if in 2004, I had no idea what Sapi was so even though I had a copy of Winfrtoz tts was just using virtual curser to read and didnt find much interpreter difference once id iliminated all unnecessary elements from the screen, this is why I prefer Winfrotz or Winglulx to Filfre and why Im not entirely reliant on the automatic speaking of incoming text. Im a little confused Tr enton what you mean about even html tads was easier than the malinche games sinse the Malinch games are just standardzcode files at rock bottom. Sherman has this weerd thing of selling butchered copies of winfrotz with installers attached and pretending the games are stand alone programs, but really there isnt anything special about them and you could just play them in filfre, console Frotz or whatever like any other if game. This is why as I said Shermans little hissyfit about blind players is somewhat unnecessary sinse if the guy just worked in a streight forward way it wouldnt be an issue. @Sebby I personally dont like the term Cyoa when applied to gamebooks. The Choose your own adventure series was a set of very simple gamebooks very much intended for children. There really wasnt that much consequence in a lot of the choices, and often death was pretty arbitrary. There is an interesting article on this on the choiceofgames s ite, but basicaly the model they use for choices is trying to make the choices significant and using the stats to reflect that significance, which is why the choiceofgames dont use traditional DD style rpg stats, sinse what would be the point in choosing between strength and mmm, weakness? Im not sure what you mean by Best when the third person perspective holds together enough, sinse nearly all, if not absolutely all interactive fiction, be that gamebooks or parser based is second person, indeed its about the only area of literary endeavour where Second Person is the norm rather than an experiment (though the bbc did a very awsome radioplay of The Junglebook told entirely through the narrators second person talk to mowgly and Mowglys first person talking to himself). On the hole object manipulation thing, as Ive said before I personally dont find that as engaging and have pretty much given up on parser style g ames sinse I became sick of getting stuck on a guess the verb or something with no logic behind it, though I probably ought to try Hadian lands or some other parser if again just to see if the situation is really as bad as I remember it being, though i confess one fact that slightly puts me off Hadian lands is while I really enjoyed Plotkins Dreamhold, I got down right frustrated with his game Shade. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193933#p193933 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman @Trenton, Yep, certainly the ff project podcast is still around Get here from sendspace Regarding Choiceofgames as I said Id count those as gamebooks, though perhaps there should be some sort of distinction between gamebooks that use the rpg random combat and dice the way ff style gamebooks do, and those that work simply on choice. I can understand your idea on console windows, though for me I dont mind using winfrotz or Winglulx, or indeed Wintads. Indeed, back when i first discovered traditional parser if in 2004, I had no idea what Sapi was so even though I had a copy of Winfrtoz tts was just using virtual curser to read and didnt find much interpreter difference once id iliminated all unnecessary elements from the screen, this is why I prefer Winfrotz or Winglulx to Filfre and why Im not entirely reliant on the automatic speaking of incoming text. Im a little confused Tr enton what you mean about even html tads was easier than the malinche games sinse the Malinch games are just standardzcode files at rock bottom. Sherman has this weerd thing of selling butchered copies of winfrotz with installers attached and pretending the games are stand alone programs, but really there isnt anything special about them and you could just play them in filfre, console Frotz or whatever like any other if game. This is why as I said Shermans little hissyfit about blind players is somewhat unnecessary sinse if the guy just worked in a streight forward way it wouldnt be an issue. @Sebby I personally dont like the term Cyoa when applied to gamebooks. The Choose your own adventure series was a set of very simple gamebooks very much intended for children. There really wasnt that much consequence in a lot of the choices, and often death was pretty arbitrary. There is an interesting article on this on the choiceofgames s ite, but basicaly the model they use for choices is trying to make the choices significant and using the stats to reflect that significance, which is why the choiceofgames dont use traditional DD style rpg stats, sinse what would be the point in choosing between strength and mmm, weakness? Im not sure what you mean by Best when the third person perspective holds together enough, sinse nearly all, if not absolutely all interactive fiction, be that gamebooks or parser based is second person, indeed its about the only area of literary endeavour where Second Person is the norm rather than an experiment (though the bbc did a very awsome radioplay of The Junglebook told entirely through the narrators second person talk to mowgly and Mowglys first person talking to himself). On the hole object manipulation thing, as Ive said before I personally dont find that as engaging and have pretty much given up on parser style g ames sinse I became sick of getting stuck on a guess the verb or something with no logic behind it, though I probably ought to try Hadian lands or some other parser if again just to see if the situation is really as bad as I remember it being, though i confess one fact that slightly puts me off Hadian lands is while I really enjoyed Plotkins Dreamhold, I got down right frustrated with his games Shade and Hunter in darkness, a shame sinse the writing in both was awsome, but having no way to progress was a pain in the rear. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193933#p193933 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
2014-11-04
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : Trenton Goldshark via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman @Dark:The last time I played a demo of Howards games, was for sure when NVDA did not exist, and I was using Window-Eyes at the time. Oh the joys you Supernova people have with that Virtual Focus... Ah, glad that the podcast is still around... That was a fine program! Wish ya could do more in the future, like doing a review of the Choose your Story books. Thatd be neat! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193947#p193947 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Glad you liked the podcast. I actually have done a few more, recently this year I did one for smugglers 5 and one for King of Dragon pass. Demonstrating one or other of the Choiceofgames titles isnt a bad idea, though my next plan for a podcast was something on startraders elite (at least when the planetary navigator is fixed), sinse it is a ridiculously complex game and an intro might be helpful. All my previousk castings of the pod can be found in This sendspace folder As to the virtual focus (or Dolphin curser as its been called for the last few versions), yes, it is indeed useful. I believe window eyes has something similar, at least I recall as much from discussions of Smugglers but whether it did at the point you tried the malinche games, or indeed how it works with Winfrotz etc I dont know.Either way if you did want to try the malinche demos as I said you can just grab the file s and bang them in your favourite inform Interpreter. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193977#p193977 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman @Dark: oops, youre right, yes, I meant second-person. I mean that Ive always been happiest with choice-based IF (if that exists and is a real thing, see above) when the illusion holds, and that only really works if the choices the player can make are seamless enough and sensible enough for any given point in the story, which they simply cant easily be without essentially cheating the player, as I think Ive explained it before. Regardless how much you hate the parser, it does at least have the virtue of complete freedom, as a goal if not as a matter of practical consequence. Choice-based IF always feels a lot to me like reading a book where Im the central character who gets to make a few important decisions, whereas IF makes me feel like Im part of the game world. I think object manipulation helps a great deal with that, since it is a reminder of the concrete nature of the world. I will agree that ChoiceOfGames do great work, Ive got all th eir stuff and wont diss it on quality, but to me the difference between that and contemporary IF, even when you factor in the way the game engine works (which is pretty awesome) is very real. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193982#p193982 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman I assume you mean by cheating when choices in a gamebook use a form of shorthand with your choices, eg do you go through the forest or the mountains? You walk through the mountains for three days and find two caves, do you go in the right or left? Ie, skipping major parts of the decision process and the story in time. I can understand why that makes you feel more like participating in a story than being a character in a coherent world at large, however there is another side to it as well, that being the ability to make time pass and to let you make choices over larger scale events such as the commanding of an army in battle, rather than everything be of the open box with key variety. I also confess that for me as Ive said, the parser is more like playing a game and not knowing the controls, than having complete freedom. If I had complete! freedom, as say you do when your rping with a human gm, you dont need to worry about eith er how you phrase what you do, or more crytically, whether the author of that game has thought of the action you took and factored it into the game he/she is writing, otherwise you get the dreaded I dont know how to put type message.For example in Andrew Plotkins Shade, your character was complaining about being thirsty and I believe the first action needed was to get a drink, however whenever I turned the tap on to get some water the message came up yeah, the waters still on, you flick the tap off, this frustrated me for its pure stupidity! This is why I personally prefer limited parser to the inform completely open natural language parser system, sinse by limiting commands you dont pretend there is a freedom there that isnt, and really what is the point of having say a smell command if there is nothing to smell in the game and if the examine command can give you any important odorous information anyhow? I will agree that in gamebooks I do miss the exploration side of the traditional If directions, though better classes of gamebook can include this too just by having recursive choice structure albeit its more common in ff style books than in Choiceofgames style ones, though again you dont need the full natural language parser for this, as even if north or n as abbreviation will do the job, what is the point in having a hole bunch of go north, proceed north, travel north type redundent synonims. Likewise, I always enjoyed the basic examine command to use on the environment or objects, but having a hole bunch of slightly different examine commands, especially those that applied to other senses just seems redundent to me, and occasionally confusing. Lastly, my major problem of course with object manipulation is lack of logic. Sinse to me, there is a point when I just get sick of trying random combinations of actions and verbs and just want to ge t on and progress and see more of the world, not be stuck on some random puzzle, and usually my reaction on hearing the solution I failed to guess isnt oh [[wow]]! I shouldve thought of that but for gods sake, thats just plane obscure and frustrating! URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193988#p193988 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman More or less Dark, yes. Well, that and the problems you get when the decision path would not logically result in some choice that might otherwise--though to be fair CoG do try and recognise this as an issue and either disable or remove the more obviously wrong options. Still, sometimes its just unavoidable that a large action sequence will contain too little player control, or the motives of the player will be miscalculated and you will have to go with the best option under the circumstances, etc. All this is quite upsetting and jarring when it happens and makes you wish you could have more say in the matter. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193993#p193993 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Well Sebby, while I take your point, having to choose between bad alternatives is sometimes just life, and managing choices is often part of the game, especially with the way the stats system in the works. The major problem I tend to run into is that I will believe a certain choice emboddies a certain characteristic, but the author believes otherwise. For example in zombie exodus there is an occasion you come upon a surviver who has just been bitten by a zombie and is asking you to kill them before they turn. I chose to shoot them, which is imho the most humane option for all concerned, you dont have a zombie attacking you and they dont have their mind wiped by the zombie virus, heck theyre begging you to shoot them anyway. Despite however my belief the author of Zombie exodus has my characters humanity/brutality stat shift towards the brutaity end of the spectrum, which I wasnt exactly happy about, though I can accept this as difference of opi nion. While I take your point of time compression in gamebooks, at the same time I do see it as having advantages as I said, both in large scale choices such as army commanding, and in smaller scale ones which reflect over all progress and leave replay value. All of the Lone Wolf gamebooks for example generally have a choice of two routes. For example in Plague lords of Ruel you can choose to approach the evil fortress either through the jungle or through the mountains. After you make the initial choice of route the viewpoint zooms in so to speak, and you have the usual gamebook style choice of paths, what creatures to fight, whether you use your Kai diciplins, stuff to investigate or let be etc, however by providing the larger macro choice Jo Diva insured replay value for the book, --- -aside from the lw skill system meaning that often your choice of Kai diciplins at the start of the book affects what you can do later on. So, while I do take your point that occasionall y choices like do you want to go through the dungeon wrecklessly or cautiously can somewhat reduce interactivity, at the same time I can see advantages for over all choices that traditional parser if doesnt have, or at least not unless the author of the game really mangles the usual formula the way say Emily Short does in Pythos mask (which is virtually a gamebook anyway with the menu driven conversation system). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194005#p194005 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Well Sebby, while I take your point, having to choose between bad alternatives is sometimes just life, and managing choices is often part of the game, especially with the way the stats system in the works. The major problem I tend to run into is that I will believe a certain choice emboddies a certain characteristic, but the author believes otherwise. For example in zombie exodus there is an occasion you come upon a surviver who has just been bitten by a zombie and is asking you to kill them before they turn. I chose to shoot them, which is imho the most humane option for all concerned, you dont have a zombie attacking you and they dont have their mind wiped by the zombie virus, heck theyre begging you to shoot them anyway. Despite however my belief the author of Zombie exodus has my characters humanity/brutality stat shift towards the brutaity end of the spectrum, which I wasnt exactly happy about, though I can accept this as difference of opi nion. While I take your point of time compression in gamebooks, at the same time I do see it as having advantages as I said, both in large scale choices such as army commanding, and in smaller scale ones which reflect over all progress and leave replay value. All of the Lone Wolf gamebooks for example generally have a choice of two routes. For example in Plague lords of Ruel you can choose to approach the evil fortress either through the jungle or through the mountains. After you make the initial choice of route the viewpoint zooms in so to speak, and you have the usual gamebook style choice of paths, what creatures to fight, whether you use your Kai diciplins, stuff to investigate or let be etc, however by providing the larger macro choice Jo Diva insured replay value for the book, --- -aside from the lw skill system meaning that often your choice of Kai diciplins at the start of the book affects what you can do later on. So, while I do take your point that occasionall y choices like do you want to go through the dungeon wrecklessly or cautiously can somewhat reduce interactivity which indeed is one of my cryticisms of Codename sygnus, at the same time I can see advantages for over all choices that traditional parser if doesnt have, or at least not unless the author of the game really mangles the usual formula the way say Emily Short does in Pythos mask (which is virtually a gamebook anyway with the menu driven conversation system). URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=194005#p194005 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Hello,Same here. Im sticking to choiceofgames and posssibly hadian lands, but definitely the choiceofgames. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193831#p193831 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
2014-11-03
Thread
AudioGames . net Forum — General Game Discussion : blindncool via Audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Its a shame all those games arent going to be free. I would have loved to play them, but I just cant afford them. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193846#p193846 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman To be honest, judging by the demos and prequel Im still not sure on the Malinch quality. Even if the games were! released as abandonware and free, its likely I wouldve got stucck sooner or later on a usual guess the verb. From a mechanics perspective Hadian lands sounds much more interesting with this alchemy business, sinse its a new use of Inform, not same old object manipulation puzzles as usual.Then again, I am finding more and more these days that I enjoy interactive gamebooks like choiceofgames, ffporject etc much more than parser stuff, particularly the choiceofgames ones with their variable statistics to play with. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193853#p193853 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Hi,Just read the blog post. Im seriously wondering if hes checked he interactive fiction archive, or if hes even checked out the accessibility in the iOS games. Right now, the choice of games are selling well at a much less price.Ive just had a random thought too. I dont want to offend anyone here, especially those who grew up with interactive fiction like Zork and such, this is just my opinion, but I would actually consider the choice of games more akin to interactive fiction, than the traditional text adventure, because its literally you read and interact with the book rather than you read and type to it. Its got a much more pick up and play mechanic and it goes from one part of the book to the next, where as Id consider zork more like an adventure game, which it kind of is really when you think about it. I think the term interactive fiction might be changing. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193861#p193861 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Just so you know, this thread is near the top of the Google search results for malinche interactive fiction and thats how I got here, much to my delight. Always nice to be in the home counties.You may or may not know by now that Malinche is no longer selling IF. I, FWIW, have bought several of his games, and while I agree about the general level of less-than-ideal quality they represented, I quite enjoyed owning them, as a completist collector. I even ate the chocolate bar. In somewhat related news, IFComp has finally made it into the Guardian. IFComp is, of course, now open yet again. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193749#p193749 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Hello,Just one question: If the games are no longer for sale, what has happened to them? URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193752#p193752 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Yep, I heard malinch had shut down and judging by the last announcement I read in something of a fit of peak. Id be interested to know what has happened to the games as well, though I suspect the answer is Im going away to sulk and taking my toys with me so nobody can play with them at all! Aka the answer of a businessman not an artist who wants their work appreciated, :d.Hay, I could be wrong however. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193765#p193765 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Its quite surprising how frequently threads from the forum comee up on Google, Ive run into them occasionally when searching for browser games, and weve even sometimes had a newbie or too who found us that way.Yep, I heard malinch had shut down and judging by the last announcement I read in something of a fit of peak. Id be interested to know what has happened to the games as well, though I suspect the answer is Im going away to sulk and taking my toys with me so nobody can play with them at all! Aka the answer of a businessman not an artist who wants their work appreciated, :d.Hay, I could be wrong however. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193765#p193765 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman I read something on their blog. Yes, its here. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193783#p193783 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Yep well, winjy Mr. Sherman has his say, I wonder if this businessman Hmmm, I wonder if that hardened businessman he talks about ever considered the fact that his prices for interactive fiction are stratospheric, especially considering other people who sell commercial if either tradditional parser based or otherwise (look at Andrew Plotkins latest). Then again Sherman doesnt seem to believe other commercial if exists or that he himself does any wrong.I wonder if Mr. Shermans ego sat down in that mythical board room, Im guessing not sinse then it would need to be more of a board cathedral .I dont like his little strop about blind players, not when hes using basic Zcode and the instructtions for that are fairly standard, indeed I might venture to ask if perhaps his website was less obscure, if he stopped these we erd butchered versions of if iinterpreters that run as stand alone programs for each of his games and just sold the files, and above all if the stupid man was a little more clear about instructions and less self obsessed with his website , sinse hell, if someone wants to know how to play the games they dont have to waide through a massively long and circular promotion! Honestly, his how to play our games page reads like: you are just about to have the unique experience of playing interactive fiction which is wonderful and shiny and is written by me the wonderfullist and shinyist person in the world so sit back and bask in my glory because its very easy and soon you will join the cult and worship me, so just continue reading and Ill tell you exactly how to appreciate my utter greatness as the fantastic worker of interactive fiction I am, which by the way is utterly marvelous and wonderful and you should play it because it will change your life ; etc etcSo, Im not surprised that business isnt exactly booming, but I dont think its anything to do with the reasons the almighty director Sherman states, I think its malinches own fault for all the negative reasons mentioned. On the plus side, I am glad the games havent vanished for the sake of completeness, though my above comment about pricing for very traditional and to be brutally honest not exceptional quality interactive fiction still remains and is the reason I shant be buying any of Malinches titless whether he creates more or not. I will be buying more choiceofgames for a couple of quid each though, and I might even buy the traditional parser if Hadian lands for a fiver from Andrew plotkin in the future, but then again both of those have easy going, streight forward instructions and websites, and neither one feels so self satisfied and slime covered it makes me feel slightly nausious to read . URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193792#p193792 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Yep well, winjy Mr. sherman has his little strop. Hmmm, I wonder if that hardened businessman he talks about ever considered the fact that his prices for interactive fiction are stratospheric, especially considering other people who sell commercial if either tradditional parser based or otherwise (look at Andrew Plotkins latest). Then again Sherman doesnt seem to believe other commercial if exists or that he himself does any wrong.I wonder if Mr. Shermans ego sat down in that mythical board room, Im guessing not sinse then it would need to be more of a board cathedral .I dont like his little strop about blind players, not when hes using basic Zcode and the instructtions for that are fairly standard, indeed I might venture to ask if perhaps his website was less obscure, if he stopped these weerd butchered versio ns of if iinterpreters that run as stand alone programs for each of his games and just sold the files, and above all if the stupid man was a little more clear about instructions and less self obsessed with his website , sinse hell, if someone wants to know how to play the games they dont have to waide through a massively long and circular promotion! Honestly, his how to play our games page reads like: you are just about to have the unique experience of playing interactive fiction which is wonderful and shiny and is written by me the wonderfullist and shinyist person in the world so sit back and bask in my glory because its very easy and soon you will join the cult and worship me, so just continue reading and Ill tell you exactly how to appreciate my utter greatness as the fantastic worker of interactive fiction I am, which by the way is utterly marvelous and wonderful and you should play it because it will change your life etc etc< p>So, Im not surprised that business isnt exactly booming, but I dont think its anything to do with the reasons the almighty director Sherman states, I think its malinches own fault for all the negative reasons mentioned. On the plus side, I am glad the games havent vanished for the sake of completeness, though my above comment about pricing for very traditional and to be brutally honest not exceptional quality interactive fiction still remains and is the reason I shant be buying any of Malinches titless whether he creates more or not. I will be buying more choiceofgames for a couple of quid each though, and I might even buy the traditional parser if Hadian lands for a fiver from Andrew plotkin in the future, but then again both of those have easy going, streight forward instructions and websites, and neither one feels so self satisfied and slime covered it makes me feel slightly nausious to read. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193792#p193792 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Yep well, winjy Mr. sherman has his little strop. Hmmm, I wonder if that hardened businessman he talks about ever considered the fact that his prices for interactive fiction are stratospheric, especially considering other people who sell commercial if either tradditional parser based or otherwise (look at Andrew Plotkins latest). Then again Sherman doesnt seem to believe other commercial if exists or that he himself does any wrong, and as for this mythical artist, well maybe he should, mmm, learn a bit about how if has advanced in the last 25 years and work at improving his art?I wonder if Mr. Shermans ego sat down in that mythical board room, Im guessing not sinse then it would need to be more of a board cathedral .I dont like his little strop about blind players, not when hes using basic Zcode and the in structtions for that are fairly standard, indeed I might venture to ask if perhaps his website was less obscure, if he stopped these weerd butchered versions of if iinterpreters that run as stand alone programs for each of his games and just sold the files, and above all if the stupid man was a little more clear about instructions and less self obsessed with his website , sinse hell, if someone wants to know how to play the games they dont have to waide through a massively long and circular promotion! Honestly, his how to play our games page reads like: you are just about to have the unique experience of playing interactive fiction which is wonderful and shiny and is written by me the wonderfullist and shinyist person in the world so sit back and bask in my glory because its very easy and soon you will join the cult and worship me, so just continue reading and Ill tell you exactly how to appreciate my utter greatness as the fantastic worker of int eractive fiction I am, which by the way is utterly marvelous and wonderful and you should play it because it will change your life etc etcSo, Im not surprised that business isnt exactly booming, but I dont think its anything to do with the reasons the almighty director Sherman states, I think its malinches own fault for all the negative reasons mentioned. On the plus side, I am glad the games havent vanished for the sake of completeness, though my above comment about pricing for very traditional and to be brutally honest not exceptional quality interactive fiction still remains and is the reason I shant be buying any of Malinches titless whether he creates more or not. I will be buying more choiceofgames for a couple of quid each though, and I might even buy the traditional parser if Hadian lands for a fiver from Andrew plotkin in the future, but then again both of those have easy going, streight forward instructions and websites, and neither one feels so self satisfied and slime covered it makes me feel slightly nausious to read. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193792#p193792 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Yep well, winjy Mr. sherman has his little strop. Hmmm, I wonder if that hardened businessman he talks about ever considered the fact that his prices for interactive fiction are stratospheric, especially considering other people who sell commercial if either tradditional parser based or otherwise (look at Andrew Plotkins latest). Then again Sherman doesnt seem to believe other commercial if exists or that he himself does any wrong, and as for this mythical artist, well maybe he should, mmm, learn a bit about how if has advanced in the last 25 years and work at improving his art?I wonder if Mr. Shermans ego sat down in that mythical board room, Im guessing not sinse then it would need to be more of a board cathedral .I dont like his bitching about blind players either, not when hes using basic Zcode and the instructtions for that are fairly standard, indeed I might venture to ask if perhaps his website was less obscure, if he stopped these weerd butchered versions of if iinterpreters that run as stand alone programs for each of his games and just sold the streight out inform files, and above all if the stupid man was a little more clear about instructions and less self obsessed with his website , sinse hell, if someone wants to know how to play the games they dont have to waide through a massively long and circular promotion! Honestly, his how to play our games page reads like: you are just about to have the unique experience of playing interactive fiction which is wonderful and shiny and is written by me the wonderfullist and shinyist person in the world so sit back and bask in my glory because its very easy and soon you will join the cult and worship me, so just continue reading and Ill tell you exactly how to appreciate my utter greatness as the fantastic worker of interactive fiction I am, which by the way is utterly marvelous and wonderful and you should play it because it will change your life etc etcSo, Im not surprised that business isnt exactly booming, but I dont think its anything to do with the reasons the almighty director Sherman states, I think its malinches own fault for all the negative reasons mentioned. On the plus side, I am glad the games havent vanished for the sake of completeness, though my above comment about pricing for very traditional and to be brutally honest not exceptional quality interactive fiction still remains and is the reason I shant be buying any of Malinches titless whether he creates more or not. I will be buying more choiceofgames for a couple of quid each though, and I might even buy the traditional parser if Hadian lands for a fiver from Andrew plotkin in the future, but then again both of those hav e easy going, streight forward instructions and websites, and neither one feels so self satisfied and slime covered it makes me feel slightly nausious to read. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193792#p193792 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman Suits me; Im playing Hadean Lands now in Git under Linux (Glulx, plain and simple, as taken from the iOS game) and really loving it. This title certainly benefited from being commercial, and indeed, Ive often wanted to reward some of his free works.So yeah, done and dusted with that other company. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193793#p193793 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman I enjoyed Plotkins Dreamhold, but havent quite got the knack of his other games, the usual guess the verb or insane puzzle problem, but still it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Ill try Hadian lands in the future, indeed Im more! likely to hazard 5 usd on a game than 49. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193797#p193797 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman
Re: The contraversy of Mallenche, and its creator, Howard Sherman I enjoyed Plotkins Dreamhold, but havent quite got the knack of his other games, the usual guess the verb or insane puzzle problem, but still it is not beyond the realms of possibility that Ill try Hadian lands in the future, indeed Im very much more! likely to hazard 5 usd on a game than 49.so Ill not be shedding any tears over the lack of new titles Malinche. URL: http://forum.audiogames.net/viewtopic.php?pid=193797#p193797 ___ Audiogames-reflector mailing list Audiogames-reflector@sabahattin-gucukoglu.com https://sabahattin-gucukoglu.com/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/audiogames-reflector
