Thank you all,
Doug, that is my plan, that takes time! I was just jumping from
generation into generation, backwards, just to see where I could go in the
backbone of the tree, sem olhar para os galhos but I know I have a lot
of work! Some of the branches I caught along the way were pure luck ;-)
I can't get it all, but it does say they are not yet married (recibidos)
because they have not completed some penance for being 3rd and 4th degree
consanguinity. They are both natives of the parish.
Mnk
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For options, such as changing to List, Digest, Abridged, or No Mail (vacation)
mode,
Thank you! This is my first record with the consanguinity in it. This means
they were 3rd and 4th degree cousins, is that correct?
-Original Message-
From: azores@googlegroups.com [mailto:azores@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of mnk
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2014 7:59 AM
To:
Ricardo,
I know Canto did his work in the latter 1800s. And Rodrigo Rodrigues did
corrections and amendments in the early 1900s.
Take the Achada marriage index, for example. Canto created it sometime in
the late 1800s. The early Achada records are really bad - near the level
of the Santa Maria
Erica B,
1st degree: Uncle/niece, aunt/nephew, really close stuff.
2nd degree: 1st cousins
3rd degree: 2nd cousins
4th degree: 3rd cousins
After that, they didn't care.
This is only for consanguinity or blood relatives. There's also affinity,
where the wife dies so he marries his sister-in-law
1805 Madalena, in Lajes do Pico, Pico Island, Azores, Portugal
•_UID: 9928938A34DD450D97CB2DB95560FD437EAB
This was connected to Luiza's Birth. The parents details are the only hint
I have ever come across. So I can only presume that Louisa was born on Pico
in 1805.
Thank you so much,
Lyn
If I might offer a slight clarification, 1st degree of consanguinidade is brother/sister.Of course, you don't see that, but do see 1st and 2nd degree, which is uncle/niece, as Cheri stated.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com
I thought a brother marrying a sister was forbidden by law in most
countries and considered incest? So what is incest in the Azores and
Portugal?
Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas,
Achada
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Of course. And that's why you don't ever see a 1st degree connection getting married.Frankly, it's surprising to me 1st and 2nd degree was ever allowed. Maybe it was a way to generate more money by the church, so they allowed it? I'm assuming they had to pay a bigger fee for dispensation, but it's
This is related in origin to Ferreira, meaning an ironworker or blacksmith.
Eric
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Richard Francis Pimentel
rfrancispimen...@comcast.net wrote:
*According to Guill, Ferro is a surname.*
*Rick*
*Richard Francis Pimentel*
*Spring, TX*
*From:*
I don't understand what that is. It seems a identification number from some
website?
Eric
On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 6:34 AM, crazy6g...@live.com.au wrote:
1805
Madalena, in Lajes do Pico, Pico Island, Azores, Portugal
*_UID: 9928938A34DD450D97CB2DB95560FD437EAB
This was connected to
I've seen one 1st degree of consanguinity. I think Eloise sent it to me a
long time ago.
In my college courses I don't remember any society marrying siblings. At
least in Western culture. Cleopatra married her brother. Isn't that
ancient history? I don't remember. Our studies didn't go back
I won't believe that until I see it.I think it must have been 1st and 2nd mixed - uncle/niece.Doug da Rocha HolmesSacramento, CaliforniaPico Terceira Genealogist916-550-1618www.dholmes.com
Original Message
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] first degree of consanguinity
From:
If I may, there are two methods of qualification a) civil and b) canonic.
The civil calculates starting at the top of the trunk and discounts (1).
Parents (0) children (1) grandchildren (2) great grandchildren (3)
The canonic begins at the lower branch. Children (0) Grandchildren (1)
Great
Thanks Cheri,
I believe this is the end for me, he is the only first name Balthazar 20 to
25 years back of his son born in 1707, I saw the hole period and there a
lot we can't read at all!
Bottom Right, 5th record.
The incest taboo among siblings has been exempt among royalty of various
cultures throughout history, one example being the royal Hawaiian families
in fact it was encouraged they believe such unions produces superiors
specimens.
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 8:57:25 AM UTC-7, Doug da Rocha Holmes
Yes, Doug, I'm sure Cheri meant that when she said really close stuff.
Personally, I classify it as incest.
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 11:42:41 AM UTC-4, Doug da Rocha Holmes wrote:
If I might offer a slight clarification, 1st degree of consanguinidade is
brother/sister.
Of course, you
Actually, there were two siblings named Victorino de Mello
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 12:22:09 AM UTC-4, Cheri Mello wrote:
Dano,
Must be a different. My Vitorino, married to Maria Joaquina (I think) was
the son of Antonio de Mello Constancia de Jesus. You must have different
Victorino
The Vitorino that you mention, is the same one I referred to. Perhaps, I
muddled up the explanation by referring to Antonia da Trindade as
Pimentel, when, in fact, she was actually the daughter of Joao Fagundes
de Rebello who married Jose de Pimentel from Faial da Terra, 6-Jun-1763
(NSdP-PG).
You didn't mention the name of a couple, just the name of one person.
Also, if you're researching native Portuguese, you'll have better luck if
you use the Portuguese version of their surname. Harris is not a Portuguese
surname - could a person from a family named Harris have been born in
I went to school with 2 people named Ferro they were from Sao Miguel
On Sat, Apr 5, 2014 at 12:28 PM, luiznoia . noblankt...@gmail.com wrote:
This is related in origin to Ferreira, meaning an ironworker or
blacksmith.
Eric
On Fri, Apr 4, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Richard Francis Pimentel
I apologize for my previous sanctimonious reply. I neglected to see the
caption above your message. However, those details that I mentioned are
still pertinent to your success or failure. As for the names, they do look
somewhat familiar, but, where, when - I couldn't say w/o more info. When
Doug, I agree, that marriage of 1st degree consanguinity, includes
Father/Daughter, Mother/Son, and Grandparents/Grandchildren, as well as
siblings (not sure that the uncle/niece, aunt/nephew is 1st or 2nd), would
be banned by the Church as incest - especially in conservative Portugal,
and,
I am going to send you a few from Ponta Garca that I traced to Vila Franca
with very similar names, Gomes, Baltazar, Fontes and Melo, all from, or
with links to Santa Maria about the same time period. You never know, it
might help and I think they are related, although it may not be
I suppose the logic in Hawaiian royalty was that they were superior to begin with, so marriage to another such superior person couldn't help but produce more superior offspring.But I have never once seen any example of royal marriages to siblings. I think in Catholic countries, they would never
Anthony, I admit that Church Law was flouted on a few occasions, mostly in
England, but the Church dealt with that harshly, as evidenced by the
establishment of the Inquisition. Europe was the Church's domain for the
better part of the last millennium.The Church takes its laws very
seriously.
For what it is worth, in all of my experience researching Azorean genealogy, I
have never found a marriage among siblings, not even among half-siblings. I
have found marriages between uncle and niece and aunt and nephew, rare in
number, but existing nevertheless.
Incest is defined within a
i have seen in old baptism records in Relva the mention of coitus
damnatus.
Manoel
Em sábado, 5 de abril de 2014 20h04min20s UTC-3, John Raposo escreveu:
For what it is worth, in all of my experience researching Azorean
genealogy, I have never found a marriage among siblings, not even among
I have never seen a first degree but I have seen lots of 4th, 3rd and second.
Need to keep a few things in mind though. During the 18th and 19th centuries in
Europe about 40% of marriages were among cousins. During someone's lifetime
they might have travelled 20-30 miles from their home so they
Thanks to Doug for pointing me in the right direction in the search for my
grandmother's birth record, I found the right one. I could use some help
with the translation, especially the section following the name of her
mother. This is what I have translated so far:
On the 12th day of the
Marriage between first cousins has taken place more than once on my
paternal line. One set of my great grandparents were first first cousins.
In more recent generations in this same line, first cousin marriages have
occurred with no apparent ill effects. I can cite one specific case where
the two
For what it's worth, as a comparison to what we see in the Azores, and especially in the smaller villages, I don't have any instances I've ever seen on my mother's Hungarian/Slovak side of cousins getting married. The villages were not huge, but still bigger than most Azorean villages. And so I
The record I am looking at is the top entry on the right side. I have never
seen one like this before. It appears that the child was unnamed. Did he die
before they named him?
http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-VF-SAOPEDRO-B-1700-
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