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Stephen, your statement that only 10% of the Covenant-breaker websites
is negative, demonstrates the problem, and your unawareness of the
situation.
While discussing these ideas with deepened Baha'is, reading the Sacred
Text and the Master's Last Tablet to
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Hi all I am new here so forgive me if my words are not perfect to this
thread.
It is interesting to note that covenant-breaker material -as the Bahais call
it- is quite different from the material of different religious sects.
If you look at Christianity you will see
: Tue, August 31, 2010 5:29:05 PM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think it is concerning that the President has to ease the tension by
claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
something bad about
lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think it is concerning that the President has to ease the tension by
claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
something bad about being a Muslim.
I agree. It is no accident the latest
:29:05 PM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think it is concerning that the President has to ease the tension by
claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
something bad about being a Muslim.
I
only seen limited negativity.
From: Naison Jones naistrada...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Wed, September 1, 2010 2:51:13 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
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Hi
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Actually the reasons they give are:
Yes, but I was referring to the fact that this discussion has just
recently re-emerged. It was Fox News that first accused him of being a
Muslim during the election.
His father was a Muslim
Not true. His father was a Marxist and
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Given all the time they spent on criticizing Obama for the church he
went to for 30 years you would think people would know better.
And generally it is the same people. They want to have it both ways.
__
You are
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Are there any CB statistics?
Well sort of, but their accuracy is in question. We know during the
recent court case you referred to the OBF claimed to have only about
thirty members in the US. Brent will tell you that the hotel room in
which they hold their annual
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On Thu, Sep 2, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
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I've only seen limited negativity.
It depends how you define negativity.
In light of the fact that it creates division amongst a religion whose soul
purpose is
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The danger in reading Covenant breaker sites is often not that the
person will be in danger of following these groups; it is that they
destroy one's faith. The confusing answers of Mr. Grey, and his
statement that he is leaving religion altogether, make the point
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I read a quote some time ago that speaks to Brent's point about avoiding
certain sites and materials.
Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has a
very good book called, The Birth of the Chaotic Age. He notes, The
problem is never how to
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I have been avidly watching this conversation unfold, as the question of CB
sites had come up just days before.
I subscribe to Google alerts for Bahai articles and videos. Some of
the sites I've visited look absolutely legitimate but still, I get a funny
feeling.
.
From: Ahang Rabbani ahang.rabb...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 9:35:44 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
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I read a quote some time ago that speaks to Brent's point about avoiding
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Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha,
Qur'an, Hadith, etc.
Dear Stephen,
The only CB group I know of that spends a lot of energy trying to tie
themselves in with
Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 10:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
several groups to tie themselves into prophecies ie Bible, Apocrypha,
Qur'an
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The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
themselves off as something else.
To make it doubly difficult, one of the groups (which may consist
of one person with a bee in his
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Tue, August 31, 2010 10:38:14 AM
Subject: Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker sites
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Actually CB material isn't all negative. There are alot of attempts of
several groups to tie themselves
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Ian Kluge's Unofficial Orthodox Baha'i website tries to follow the BUPC
pattern of prophecy tieing in, in fact that is the whole concept of his
website.
Dear Stephen,
I'm not suggesting that Baha'is who are obsessed with prophecy are
necessarily Covenant breakers,
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Clues to what's not what it seems:
- references to the davidic kingship
- claims to be or speak for the guardian
- claims to be or speak for Hands of the Cause
- names such as 'orthodox bahai' / 'reformed bahai' / Bahais under
the Provisions of the Covenant
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Dee Hock is the founder and the former CEO of Visa International and has a
very good book called, The Birth of the Chaotic Age. He notes, The
problem is never how to get new, innovative thoughts in your mind, but how
to get the old ones out.
Problem with CBing
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I would appreciate clear guidance on how to recognize the wheat from the
chaff!
Dear Kathryn,
There isn't any 'clear' guidance on this issue but if you have
suspicions you can always contact the Baha'i Internet Agency. They
pretty much keep up with what is on the
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Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab were declared CB. He gets his ideas from
them.
Dear Stephen,
Yes, but this was longer after he had already left the Faith. And he
ignores the fact that Ruth White and Ahmad Sohrab did not agree with
each other. It was Ruth White who
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Ruth White and Mirza Ahmad Sohrab and Zimmer Hermann (this one iffy?) were
declared CB.
Its Herman Zimmer, and yes he was declared a Covenant breaker.
In regards to Ruth White and Herman Zimmer, Fred Glaysher has done
more than steal their ideas. He set up bogus
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I thought she became a Free Baha'i / Reform Baha'i:
Free Bahá'ís
Reform Bahá'ís To be a Bahá'í simply means to love all the world; to love
humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal
brotherhood.
- Abdu'l-Baha
They claim to be the
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I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a
website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be becoming
Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group.
Unitarian Universalist do tend to view they Unitarian
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I thought she became a Free Baha'i / Reform Baha'i:
I don't think she started any organization. The Free Baha'is were
established by Herman Zimmer who used Ruth White's ideas. That
organization has long been defunct. The Reform Baha'is is Fred
Glaysher's own
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I thought those were actual Unitarian Universalists. Due to there being a
website now, even if he created it, Unitarian Universalists could be
becoming Unitarian Baha'is. They do have a Yahoo group.
Dear Steve.
Muhammad Ali's so-called Unitarian Baha'is were
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Not to mention they have been predicting a violent apocalypse for decades.
If they didn't have the word Baha'i in their name, I would have assumed
that they were just another American 'Christian' apocalyptic sect.
On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 11:38 AM, Susan Maneck
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*There's also at least one site that claims to speak for Jewish Bahais
and is, I think, probably a dirty tricks scheme by the Iranian
government's anti-bahai agency. It is not really intended to deceive
western Bahais I think; it exists so that the anti-bahai propaganda
@list.jccc.edu
*Sent:* Tue, August 31, 2010 10:43:06 AM
*Subject:* Re: Good object lesson for avoiding reading Covenant-breaker
sites
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The problem is not so much to avoid reading the sites, as to know
what it is that you are reading, when people are trying to pass
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Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a
covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards
the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared
a covenant-breaker. Someone more versed in the
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
*Recently at a Study Circle a new believer expressed concern as to whether
Baha'is
might be persecuted now that we have a Muslim' as a president.*
I think it is concerning that the President has to ease the tension by
claiming that he's *not *a Muslim, which implies
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration,
which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration
decisions of their community, even if they do have a head organization at
the top. They are more bottom-up than
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Actually, I don't think Mirza Ahmad Sohrab was officially declared a
covenant-breaker either. Shoghi Effendi said he was a great enemy towards
the faith, but I haven't been able to find a reference where he was declared
a covenant-breaker.
Dear Matt,
I can't show
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
I think it is concerning that the President has to ease the tension by
claiming that he's not a Muslim, which implies that there is somehow
something bad about being a Muslim.
I agree. It is no accident the latest discussions of whether Obama is
really a Muslim
The Baha'i Studies Listserv
Unitarian Universalism goes by the Congregationalist type of administration,
which means that the local congregation makes many of the administration
decisions of their community, even if they do have a head organization at
the top.
Yes, but I don't think those who
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