[Bitcoin-development] MITOSYS: New Encrypted Communications Cryptocurrency

[Zumbi Warrior]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-Hash: SHA1Hi guys,Due to a good suggestion of my friend ripper234 (Ron Gross) I'm doing this short but sweet.A new concept is in the making. And the project is moving forward.WHO: I'm a Bitcoin enthusiast who has been following developments in the shadows for quite a time.Zumbí
 was a brave Afro-brazilian slave who became a warrior. He trained other
 fellow slaves to fight and escape opression by living in free colonies.
 Hence, my nom-de-guerre. But I am rather peaceful and believe free 
people and free markets are what unleashes human creativity and 
progress.WHAT: MITOSYS: A new cryptocurrency that is 
mined through a proof of work which is the capability of relaying 
encrypted transmissions over the established internet, or through 
informal parallel peer-to-peer networks.HOW: You help 
other people transmit encrypted data, you earn credit. Data will be 
temporarily stored in a dynamic blockchain that prunes itself to keep 
the size down, and account balances will be stored in a separate 
distributed archive called the account tree. Mobiles will be fundamental
 and the main target of this distributed network.WHY:- -
 To get rid of government spying and its armed forces, the oligopolic 
telecom carriers, ISPs and big data companies that provide them with all
 our information.- - To bring affordable and secure communication to the masses.- - To give people a store of wealth derived of a basic human need which is to communicate freely and universally.-
 - To provide a deeper meaning to mining, which will be not only 
acquiring the right to store financial information that cannot be 
destroyed, but also acquiring the right of having ones information 
securely delivered in time.WHERE: Development will take 
place in bitcointalk.org and github, plus distributed encrypted backup 
copies of all work. Maybe even copy information in Bitcoin's blockchain.Main markets are USA, Brazil, Russia, India and China.WHEN: Right now!I'm recruiting a peaceful army of skilled, resourceful, practical idealists who can carry this forward together.For more information see: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=327186- -BEGIN PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK-Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)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=6mvb- -END PGP PUBLIC KEY BLOCK--BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux)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=9T6c-END PGP SIGNATURE- Join the fastest growing e-mail service in the Pilippines. It's Free. It's cool. Go to http://www.e-mail.ph and Sign up now.--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

[Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Melvin Carvalho]

Rationale
===

Given the recent rise in value there seems to be anecdotal evidence that 1
bitcoin being so high is putting off a lot of normal buyers, because they
feel that putting down $400+ and only getting "1 coin", or having to buy in
multiples of 1 whole coin, is too much.. only after it being explained that
they can buy fractional amounts to they regain interest, apparently
happening increasingly.


Straw Poll


6 months ago there was a straw poll on this

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.0

Roughly 2/3 of respondents favoured switching

A further 20% said to switch after it hits 1000

Satoshi's comments:


Eventually at most only 21 million coins for 6.8 billion people in the
world if it really gets huge.

But don't worry, there are another 6 decimal places that aren't shown, for
a total of 8 decimal places internally.  It shows 1.00 but internally it's
1..  If there's massive deflation in the future, the software could
show more decimal places.

If it gets tiresome working with small numbers, we could change where the
display shows the decimal point.  Same amount of money, just different
convention for where the ","'s and "."'s go.  e.g. moving the decimal place
3 places would mean if you had 1.0 before, now it shows it as 1,000.00.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44.msg267#msg267


Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display
option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Luke-Jr]

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:45:51 AM Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
> display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display
> option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?

There's already a dropdown display option...

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Alan Reiner]

I highly recommend that if we make any move towards this, that the
software show verification in both/all units.

For instance, there should be 3 input fields, one for "BTC", one for
"mBTC" one for "uBTC".  As the user enters a value in one of the fields,
it would automatically update the other fields with the converted value
as they type.  This makes it really difficult to get it wrong... if
you're typing "10" into the BTC field, thinking it's mBTC, you'll see
10,000 mBTC showing up in the other box as you type.  Similarly, it
should display all units on all verification windows.  Users may also
use it for sanity checking conversion between units.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that this change is important in the long
run:  the current price makes Bitcoin *intimidating* to new users.  But
I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the base unit
in such an established system.  There is no easy way to do this that
doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth.  But it's possible if you
make it idiot-proof enough, and roll it out in the least inconvenient way.

-Alan


On 11/14/2013 06:45 AM, Melvin Carvalho wrote:
> Rationale
> ===
>
> Given the recent rise in value there seems to be anecdotal evidence
> that 1 bitcoin being so high is putting off a lot of normal buyers,
> because they feel that putting down $400+ and only getting "1 coin",
> or having to buy in multiples of 1 whole coin, is too much.. only
> after it being explained that they can buy fractional amounts to they
> regain interest, apparently happening increasingly.
>
>
> Straw Poll
> 
>
> 6 months ago there was a straw poll on this
>
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.0
>
> Roughly 2/3 of respondents favoured switching
>
> A further 20% said to switch after it hits 1000
>
> Satoshi's comments:
> 
>
> Eventually at most only 21 million coins for 6.8 billion people in the
> world if it really gets huge.
>
> But don't worry, there are another 6 decimal places that aren't shown,
> for a total of 8 decimal places internally.  It shows 1.00 but
> internally it's 1..  If there's massive deflation in the
> future, the software could show more decimal places.
>
> If it gets tiresome working with small numbers, we could change where
> the display shows the decimal point.  Same amount of money, just
> different convention for where the ","'s and "."'s go.  e.g. moving
> the decimal place 3 places would mean if you had 1.0 before, now
> it shows it as 1,000.00.
>
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44.msg267#msg267
>
>
> Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
> display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown
> display option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?
>
>
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>
>
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Mark Friedenbach]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
term perspective.

Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.

Mark

On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
> base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
> do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/

iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShT2JAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4DXAQAIJTNbpwBGTXuFyaxXQULf20
hMs7OlQZSOZOdsmSiPv2augxzbpa2DhhZjiosrScSBCjxMeYd4S6WgTt/b8moAYR
HD8pm88JyCKDOd7bOmzTkgDOTBBFfH+islmOY9VTdeKGHeOHH6yyLMKwnUpa+S89
4YtdzlIXAtfT37dpR5E4cHPmAYCbrRsNOB6j5ohVl2VqRou2vkwoJr/YvaW54M8i
ucIZyai2qjNWyJLcZC9QWi9Yw/W/n9QYE2mHyL0qWNaIrZVn6WGty8KpYq+i7aeU
4N4UdtLT7FAhWYec9nmEec868WsUsd+H3/WSWViMinUKO4YA3cyxWDL7MTmTRsci
g0R4WGYCzMM3cEWz5ycf5KEBPH/nDlbqFmEartTffqKXgrK5Ohhw+28Iqw5KcDX8
SVx34lw2yHWmTeIMY8d3qYKqBdcsvixDUD3xvq+ZqEIa+bZw12s4LIzqmir84TB8
fB4bdq5GddXX0PK4pboXL+Nib0OVK72YgYnVs/ejlBmeiG8Ixoz4/ygR5MHm8jcw
tSiwH0xohOJWg3lJj0vZorubXoECcOqwPzsZkwnT9irbrvOuk2jCPvrkEC8U9fgA
XHgirStS49/lI/iUWrRchoTt5iuwG18G4+E81V/DMsrSkYlipuf2DlEXiapn3hWz
ccP053+6o5Rgpc7J1aa0
=QW1i
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Allen Piscitello]

I also would prefer to go straight to uBTC as the "standard wallet unit".
 It works out perfectly with Satoshi's being the decimal units.  Something
that costs $10USD would be 25000uBTC.  This isn't a problem for a place
like South Korea, where 10USD is about 10,000 Won, so we aren't even off on
a scale of usable currencies in major economies.

The downsides are obviously confusion (causing mistakes resulting in lost
coins), and possibly from a psychological perspective on price (uBTC are
worthless!).  On the other hand, it also might help people feel like they
are getting in on the ground floor still (I own 100,000 uBTC!), and reduce
the perception the Bitcoins are not divisible (I have heard several people
worry that 21 million is not enough units).

Alan's ideas for compatibility with multiple fields will also be helpful to
solving the confusion issue.



On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Mark Friedenbach  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
> uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
> the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
> national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
> everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
> many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
> term perspective.
>
> Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> > ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
> > base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
> > do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
> Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>
> iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShT2JAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4DXAQAIJTNbpwBGTXuFyaxXQULf20
> hMs7OlQZSOZOdsmSiPv2augxzbpa2DhhZjiosrScSBCjxMeYd4S6WgTt/b8moAYR
> HD8pm88JyCKDOd7bOmzTkgDOTBBFfH+islmOY9VTdeKGHeOHH6yyLMKwnUpa+S89
> 4YtdzlIXAtfT37dpR5E4cHPmAYCbrRsNOB6j5ohVl2VqRou2vkwoJr/YvaW54M8i
> ucIZyai2qjNWyJLcZC9QWi9Yw/W/n9QYE2mHyL0qWNaIrZVn6WGty8KpYq+i7aeU
> 4N4UdtLT7FAhWYec9nmEec868WsUsd+H3/WSWViMinUKO4YA3cyxWDL7MTmTRsci
> g0R4WGYCzMM3cEWz5ycf5KEBPH/nDlbqFmEartTffqKXgrK5Ohhw+28Iqw5KcDX8
> SVx34lw2yHWmTeIMY8d3qYKqBdcsvixDUD3xvq+ZqEIa+bZw12s4LIzqmir84TB8
> fB4bdq5GddXX0PK4pboXL+Nib0OVK72YgYnVs/ejlBmeiG8Ixoz4/ygR5MHm8jcw
> tSiwH0xohOJWg3lJj0vZorubXoECcOqwPzsZkwnT9irbrvOuk2jCPvrkEC8U9fgA
> XHgirStS49/lI/iUWrRchoTt5iuwG18G4+E81V/DMsrSkYlipuf2DlEXiapn3hWz
> ccP053+6o5Rgpc7J1aa0
> =QW1i
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Alan Reiner]

Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the
smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are
500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, it's just something that needs to
be taken into consideration when it comes to user perception (which is
one of the reasons we would make such a change in the first place). 

"Holy crap these fees are huge!  I thought Bitcoin didn't have fees!"


On 11/14/2013 04:55 PM, Allen Piscitello wrote:
> I also would prefer to go straight to uBTC as the "standard wallet unit".
> It works out
perfectly with Satoshi's being the decimal units.  Something that costs
$10USD would be 25000uBTC.  This isn't a problem for a place like South
Korea, where 10USD is about 10,000 Won, so we aren't even off on a scale
of usable currencies in major economies.
>
> The downsides are obviously confusion (causing mistakes resulting in
lost coins), and possibly from a psychological perspective on price
(uBTC are worthless!).  On the other hand, it also might help people
feel like they are getting in on the ground floor still (I own 100,000
uBTC!), and reduce the perception the Bitcoins are not divisible (I have
heard several people worry that 21 million is not enough units).
>
> Alan's ideas for compatibility with multiple fields will also be
helpful to solving the confusion issue.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Mark Friedenbach mailto:m...@monetize.io>> wrote:
>
> For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
> uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
> the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
> national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
> everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
> many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
> term perspective.
>
> Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> > ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
> > base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
> > do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
>
>
--
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native
Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP
server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and
Native!
>
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net

> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
>
--
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
>
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>
>
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Jeff Garzik]

Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to
the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is
untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).

 - Jeff
On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, "Mark Friedenbach"  wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
> uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
> the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
> national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
> everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
> many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
> term perspective.
>
> Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> > ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
> > base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
> > do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
> Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>
> iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShT2JAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4DXAQAIJTNbpwBGTXuFyaxXQULf20
> hMs7OlQZSOZOdsmSiPv2augxzbpa2DhhZjiosrScSBCjxMeYd4S6WgTt/b8moAYR
> HD8pm88JyCKDOd7bOmzTkgDOTBBFfH+islmOY9VTdeKGHeOHH6yyLMKwnUpa+S89
> 4YtdzlIXAtfT37dpR5E4cHPmAYCbrRsNOB6j5ohVl2VqRou2vkwoJr/YvaW54M8i
> ucIZyai2qjNWyJLcZC9QWi9Yw/W/n9QYE2mHyL0qWNaIrZVn6WGty8KpYq+i7aeU
> 4N4UdtLT7FAhWYec9nmEec868WsUsd+H3/WSWViMinUKO4YA3cyxWDL7MTmTRsci
> g0R4WGYCzMM3cEWz5ycf5KEBPH/nDlbqFmEartTffqKXgrK5Ohhw+28Iqw5KcDX8
> SVx34lw2yHWmTeIMY8d3qYKqBdcsvixDUD3xvq+ZqEIa+bZw12s4LIzqmir84TB8
> fB4bdq5GddXX0PK4pboXL+Nib0OVK72YgYnVs/ejlBmeiG8Ixoz4/ygR5MHm8jcw
> tSiwH0xohOJWg3lJj0vZorubXoECcOqwPzsZkwnT9irbrvOuk2jCPvrkEC8U9fgA
> XHgirStS49/lI/iUWrRchoTt5iuwG18G4+E81V/DMsrSkYlipuf2DlEXiapn3hWz
> ccP053+6o5Rgpc7J1aa0
> =QW1i
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Allen Piscitello]

Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and trading rates as BTC
or MBTC (.005 MBTC fee? how cheap!).  On a more serious note, the
transition should definitely be thought out well as it could be very
damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only once
rather than twice.


On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 4:00 PM, Alan Reiner  wrote:

>  Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the
> smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are
> 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, it's just something that needs to be
> taken into consideration when it comes to user perception (which is one of
> the reasons we would make such a change in the first place).
>
> "Holy crap these fees are huge!  I thought Bitcoin didn't have fees!"
>
>
>
> On 11/14/2013 04:55 PM, Allen Piscitello wrote:
> > I also would prefer to go straight to uBTC as the "standard wallet
> unit".It works out perfectly with Satoshi's being the decimal units.
> Something that costs $10USD would be 25000uBTC.  This isn't a problem for a
> place like South Korea, where 10USD is about 10,000 Won, so we aren't even
> off on a scale of usable currencies in major economies.
> >
> > The downsides are obviously confusion (causing mistakes resulting in
> lost coins), and possibly from a psychological perspective on price (uBTC
> are worthless!).  On the other hand, it also might help people feel like
> they are getting in on the ground floor still (I own 100,000 uBTC!), and
> reduce the perception the Bitcoins are not divisible (I have heard several
> people worry that 21 million is not enough units).
> >
> > Alan's ideas for compatibility with multiple fields will also be helpful
> to solving the confusion issue.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 3:15 PM, Mark Friedenbach   > wrote:
> >
>
> For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
> uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
> the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
> national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
> everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
> many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
> term perspective.
>
> Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.
>
> Mark
>
> On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> > ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
> > base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
> > do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
>
> >
>
> >
> --
> > DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native
> Apps
> > OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> > Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP
> server.
> > Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and
> Native!
> >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> > ___
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> 
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> > DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> > OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> > Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> > Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> >
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Bitcoin-development mailing list
> > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app h

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Mark Friedenbach]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/14/13 2:00 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
> Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is
> the smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard
> fees are 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker, it's just something
> that needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to user
> perception (which is one of the reasons we would make such a change
> in the first place).
> 
> "Holy crap these fees are huge!  I thought Bitcoin didn't have
> fees!"

Well.. they are huge. 20 cents suggested fee for a irrevocable
transaction?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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=f9P7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Drak]

Given the meteoric growth many are now saying we should just switch
straight to Satoshi (uBTC) because it looks like we will be seeing BTC
valued in the thousands pretty soon. Small decimal numbers are certainly
not very attractive to the masses. There's no point switching to mBTC only
to have to switch to uBTC later - especially when that later could be a lot
sooner.

Unless something is recommended/done by the bitcoin core developers I doubt
much will change at bitcoin user/consumer level.

Drak


On 14 November 2013 11:45, Melvin Carvalho  wrote:

> Rationale
> ===
>
> Given the recent rise in value there seems to be anecdotal evidence that 1
> bitcoin being so high is putting off a lot of normal buyers, because they
> feel that putting down $400+ and only getting "1 coin", or having to buy in
> multiples of 1 whole coin, is too much.. only after it being explained that
> they can buy fractional amounts to they regain interest, apparently
> happening increasingly.
>
>
> Straw Poll
> 
>
> 6 months ago there was a straw poll on this
>
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.0
>
> Roughly 2/3 of respondents favoured switching
>
> A further 20% said to switch after it hits 1000
>
> Satoshi's comments:
> 
>
> Eventually at most only 21 million coins for 6.8 billion people in the
> world if it really gets huge.
>
> But don't worry, there are another 6 decimal places that aren't shown, for
> a total of 8 decimal places internally.  It shows 1.00 but internally it's
> 1..  If there's massive deflation in the future, the software could
> show more decimal places.
>
> If it gets tiresome working with small numbers, we could change where the
> display shows the decimal point.  Same amount of money, just different
> convention for where the ","'s and "."'s go.  e.g. moving the decimal place
> 3 places would mean if you had 1.0 before, now it shows it as 1,000.00.
>
> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=44.msg267#msg267
>
>
> Would now be a good time to start thinking about changing the default
> display in the software.  Perhaps initially it could be a dropdown display
> option, then at some point mbtc becomes the default?
>
>
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Mark Friedenbach]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Whoops, this was meant for the list:

Drawing on analogues from national currencies, it's also possible to
alleviate the confusion by switching currency symbols, e.g. to XBT or
NBC (New Bitcoin).

1 XBC == 1 uBTC

On 11/14/13 2:03 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle
> numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen).
> The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal
> places).
> 
> - Jeff
> 
> On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, "Mark Friedenbach"  > wrote:
> 
> For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight
> to uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive
> to the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for
> new national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human
> scale everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't
> think very many people on this list would consider bitcoin
> overvalued in the long term perspective.
> 
> Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.
> 
> Mark
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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=J7x7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Drak]

On 14 November 2013 22:00, Alan Reiner  wrote:

>  Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the
> smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are
> 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker,
>

The fed was reduced to 0.0001/kb a while back...

Drak
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Drak]

On 14 November 2013 22:32, Drak  wrote:

> On 14 November 2013 22:00, Alan Reiner  wrote:
>
>>  Just keep in mind it will be a little awkward that 54.3 uBTC is the
>> smallest unit that can be transferred [easily] and the standard fees are
>> 500 uBTC.It's not a deal breaker,
>>
>
> The fed was reduced to 0.0001/kb a while back...
>

Hrm. Freudian slip... you know what I mean *fee, not fed :-)

 so in response to those saying the fees are $0.20, actually it's more
like $0.042 at current prices.

Drak
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Alan Reiner]

I really like the XBT idea.  It makes a lot of sense to match the ISO
currency symbol (though the ISO guys will have to adjust the way they've
defined the "XBT").  And I do agree that going right to uBTC and
skipping mBTC makes sense, too.

I'd prefer them not be called "micro bitcoins."  I really want to call
them "microbes" ... but I'm not sure that has the right flavor for money
transfer :)  "Please give me 872 microbes".  Perhaps we just call them
"bits."  Or even "micros" or "microbits".  As I write this, I realize
there's probably 872 threads on the forums about this already...

But we would want to promote a consistent term, to avoid further
confusion when people use different names for the new unit.  It's not
guaranteed to be successful, but if we pick a good name, and build it
into the interface on the first release pushing the new unit, we have a
chance to make the transition even easier.





On 11/14/2013 05:31 PM, Mark Friedenbach wrote:
> Whoops, this was meant for the list:
>
> Drawing on analogues from national currencies, it's also possible to
> alleviate the confusion by switching currency symbols, e.g. to XBT or
> NBC (New Bitcoin).
>
> 1 XBC == 1 uBTC
>
> On 11/14/13 2:03 PM, Jeff Garzik wrote:
> > Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle
> > numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen).
> > The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal
> > places).
>
> > - Jeff
>
> > On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, "Mark Friedenbach"  > > wrote:
>
> > For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight
> > to uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive
> > to the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for
> > new national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human
> > scale everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't
> > think very many people on this list would consider bitcoin
> > overvalued in the long term perspective.
>
> > Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.
>
> > Mark
>
>
--
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
>
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Jeff Garzik]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:53 PM, Alan Reiner  wrote:
> I really like the XBT idea.  It makes a lot of sense to match the ISO

Indeed.  The decimal place move would be an excellent time to switch.

 Jeff

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Luke-Jr]

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:07:58 PM Allen Piscitello wrote:
> Obviously the answer is to just display all fees and trading rates as BTC
> or MBTC (.005 MBTC fee? how cheap!).  On a more serious note, the
> transition should definitely be thought out well as it could be very
> damaging to have this confusion, but I would prefer to do it only once
> rather than twice.

I wonder if it might make sense to bundle some other terminology fixups at the 
same time.

Right now, Bitcoin-Qt has been using the term "confirmations" (plural) to 
refer to how many blocks deep a transaction is buried. We also use the term 
"confirmation" to refer to the point where a transaction is accepted as paid. 
IMO, the latter use makes sense, but the former leads to confusion especially 
in light of scamcoins which abuse this confusion to claim they have "faster 
confirmations", implying that the actual confirmation occurs faster when it 
really doesn't. "5 blocks deep" may not be more clear to laymen, but at least 
it makes it harder for people to confuse with actual confirmation.

I think we all know the problems with the term "address". People naturally 
compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc, which operate 
fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to using "invoice id" to 
refer to what is now known as addresses, as that seems to get the more natural 
understanding to people. On the other hand, with the advent of the payment 
protocol, perhaps address/invoice id use will die out soon?

Thoughts?

Luke

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Luke-Jr]

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 10:53:16 PM Alan Reiner wrote:
> I really like the XBT idea.  It makes a lot of sense to match the ISO
> currency symbol (though the ISO guys will have to adjust the way they've
> defined the "XBT").  And I do agree that going right to uBTC and
> skipping mBTC makes sense, too.
> 
> I'd prefer them not be called "micro bitcoins."  I really want to call
> them "microbes" ... but I'm not sure that has the right flavor for money
> transfer :)  "Please give me 872 microbes".  Perhaps we just call them
> "bits."  Or even "micros" or "microbits".  As I write this, I realize
> there's probably 872 threads on the forums about this already...
> 
> But we would want to promote a consistent term, to avoid further
> confusion when people use different names for the new unit.  It's not
> guaranteed to be successful, but if we pick a good name, and build it
> into the interface on the first release pushing the new unit, we have a
> chance to make the transition even easier.

As long as we're using SI units, IMO we should stick to SI. That means "micro-
bitcoins". *Informally/spoken*, an abbreviation like "mibicoins" might make 
sense.

Luke

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Mark Friedenbach]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/14/13 3:01 PM, Luke-Jr wrote:
> I think we all know the problems with the term "address". People
> naturally compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc,
> which operate fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to
> using "invoice id" to refer to what is now known as addresses, as
> that seems to get the more natural understanding to people. On the
> other hand, with the advent of the payment protocol, perhaps
> address/invoice id use will die out soon?
> 
> Thoughts?

"key id" (thanks sipa).

I know it's a more technical term, but that is rather the point. It
was a fundamental error to call hashed-pubkeys "addresses" as people
either associate this with "account" or physical addresses, which also
rarely change.

Security and privacy guarantees of the system are defeated when key
pairs are reused. We should ideally adopt terminology that lead people
to associations of ephemeral, temporary use. "key id" is at least
neutral in this regard. Can anyone think of something better?

Mark

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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=kFj9
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Luke-Jr]

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:11:26 PM Mark Friedenbach wrote:
> "key id" (thanks sipa).
> 
> I know it's a more technical term, but that is rather the point. It
> was a fundamental error to call hashed-pubkeys "addresses" as people
> either associate this with "account" or physical addresses, which also
> rarely change.
> 
> Security and privacy guarantees of the system are defeated when key
> pairs are reused. We should ideally adopt terminology that lead people
> to associations of ephemeral, temporary use. "key id" is at least
> neutral in this regard. Can anyone think of something better?

Keys are often reused, so not sure that conveys the single-use much better.
Reason I suggested invoice id is because nobody wants to pay the same invoice 
twice.

Luke

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Jeff Garzik]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 6:11 PM, Mark Friedenbach  wrote:
> "key id" (thanks sipa).

+1, short and accurate

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Senior Software Engineer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Jeff Garzik]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 5:27 PM, Drak  wrote:
> Unless something is recommended/done by the bitcoin core developers I doubt
> much will change at bitcoin user/consumer level.

While the sentiment is appreciated, it seems important to gently push
back a bit, and remind:

This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing
decisions.  This is something that impacts the community at large, and
deserves input and discussion at every level.

I would suggest posting on all possible forums "proposal: switch to
uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?)" and see what sort of discussion
is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
the best course, and we can make an easy change.

But we need less "core dev fiat" not more :)

-- 
Jeff Garzik
Senior Software Engineer and open source evangelist
BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Luke-Jr]

On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:11:26 PM Mark Friedenbach wrote:
> On 11/14/13 3:01 PM, Luke-Jr wrote:
> > I think we all know the problems with the term "address". People
> > naturally compare it to postal addresses, email addresses, etc,
> > which operate fundamentally different. I suggest that we switch to
> > using "invoice id" to refer to what is now known as addresses, as
> > that seems to get the more natural understanding to people. On the
> > other hand, with the advent of the payment protocol, perhaps
> > address/invoice id use will die out soon?
> > 
> > Thoughts?
> 
> "key id" (thanks sipa).

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting renaming scriptPubKey, which sipa was talking 
about with "key id"; just the destination-for-transaction presented to
end-users.

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Mark Friedenbach]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 11/14/13 4:15 PM, Luke-Jr wrote:
> On Thursday, November 14, 2013 11:11:26 PM Mark Friedenbach wrote:
>> "key id" (thanks sipa).
> 
> To be clear, I wasn't suggesting renaming scriptPubKey, which sipa
> was talking about with "key id"; just the
> destination-for-transaction presented to end-users.

I was referencing a IRC conversation where sipa suggested "key id" as
a replacement for "address".

My only issue with "invoice" is possible confusion over the payment
protocol.

Mark
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
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=EclJ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Daniel F]

> This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing
> decisions.  This is something that impacts the community at large, and
> deserves input and discussion at every level.
> 
> I would suggest posting on all possible forums "proposal: switch to
> uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?)" and see what sort of discussion
> is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
> responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
> the best course, and we can make an easy change.
> 
> But we need less "core dev fiat" not more :)
> 
this seems like such a paint-the-bikeshed problem that it's sure to
generate vast volumes of discussion, waste a lot of people's time, and
all for only a dubious (imo) gain. (case in point - here i am
contributing to it :) ).

i agree that we should avoid centralizing this. i'll go a step further
and note that the client already has a dropdown allowing individuals to
choose units. merchants are free to choose to price in different units.
exchanges are free to denominate trade in different units.

i suggest we just let the market do its thing and not get into trying to
'make a decision' of any sort.

--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Melvin Carvalho]

On 15 November 2013 01:37, Daniel F  wrote:

> > This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing
> > decisions.  This is something that impacts the community at large, and
> > deserves input and discussion at every level.
> >
> > I would suggest posting on all possible forums "proposal: switch to
> > uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?)" and see what sort of discussion
> > is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
> > responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
> > the best course, and we can make an easy change.
> >
> > But we need less "core dev fiat" not more :)
> >
> this seems like such a paint-the-bikeshed problem that it's sure to
> generate vast volumes of discussion, waste a lot of people's time, and
> all for only a dubious (imo) gain. (case in point - here i am
> contributing to it :) ).
>
> i agree that we should avoid centralizing this. i'll go a step further
> and note that the client already has a dropdown allowing individuals to
> choose units. merchants are free to choose to price in different units.
> exchanges are free to denominate trade in different units.
>
> i suggest we just let the market do its thing and not get into trying to
> 'make a decision' of any sort.
>

I do agree with you here

e.g. I think the question of the ISO code (XBT vs BTC) is probably out of
scope for this thread, and there was no clear consensus, when it came up on
the forums.

As a data point, the price of bitcoin has gone up roughly 1000x since
satoshi made his suggestion that the decimal point could move 3 places.

I dont think it's a question of centralization, I was just seeking opinion
on what people felt about the reference implementation.  How about just
changing the default value in the dropdown from BTC -> to mBTC

The the other clients and exchange choose whether they want to follow suit
or not

>
>
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Alan Reiner]

I disagree.  There's a real perception and usability issue with the
current interface combined with the current price.  People are
intimidated by the current system, even though the price really reflects
Bitcoin starting to spread its wings (maybe prematurely, bubble-style,
but the price will have to get to this point eventually if Bitcoin will
thrive at the target scale). 

Bitcoin's learning curve is hard enough already.   As silly as it
sounds, feeling "insecure" because you only 0.00032 BTC, and then using
too many zeroes when paying for your smoothie are problems that can
really turn people off.  You say "Let the market sort it out". 
Sometimes the market needs direction and consistency.  Without us doing
anything, we just end up with fragmentation and confusion. 

I'd much prefer we reach a consensus on a path forward and push that
path hard.  Because there's always resistance to change, and confusion
along the way.  The easier and more consistent we can make it, the
smoother it will be.  We want to avoid:

"Hey, I'll sell it to you for 382 microbes." 
"What is a microbe?  Is that the same as a XBT?"
"I don't know, my wallet uses NBC."
"Well how much BTC is it? Okay, just send me 0.00038200 BTC"
"Four zeros after the decimal?"
"Yeah... oh wait you just sent me 10x"
...

Again it sounds silly, but this is a real usability issue.

On 11/14/2013 07:37 PM, Daniel F wrote:
>> This is a decentralized currency, and we should avoid centralizing
>> decisions.  This is something that impacts the community at large, and
>> deserves input and discussion at every level.
>>
>> I would suggest posting on all possible forums "proposal: switch to
>> uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?)" and see what sort of discussion
>> is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
>> responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
>> the best course, and we can make an easy change.
>>
>> But we need less "core dev fiat" not more :)
>>
> this seems like such a paint-the-bikeshed problem that it's sure to
> generate vast volumes of discussion, waste a lot of people's time, and
> all for only a dubious (imo) gain. (case in point - here i am
> contributing to it :) ).
>
> i agree that we should avoid centralizing this. i'll go a step further
> and note that the client already has a dropdown allowing individuals to
> choose units. merchants are free to choose to price in different units.
> exchanges are free to denominate trade in different units.
>
> i suggest we just let the market do its thing and not get into trying to
> 'make a decision' of any sort.
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development


--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Tamas Blummer]

Hi Jeff,

such a vote is up there since March:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149150.0

Votes are in favor of it.

Advantages are obvious:

1. having satoshi as 1/100 of the main unit is familiar to people like USD and 
cent
2. All existing financial software can deal/store big numbers but typically 
only 2 decimals.
3. Split could be linked with the introduction of the ISO code in one step.

Lets get it finally done.

On Thu, 14 Nov 2013 19:05:06 -0500 Jeff Garzik  wrote:
> would suggest posting on all possible forums "proposal: switch to
>uBTC, labelled as ISO prefers (XBT?)" and see what sort of discussion
>is generated.  If the support is broad, it will be plain from the
>responses if there is a consensus.  Perhaps everyone will agree it is
>the best course, and we can make an easy change.
>
>But we need less "core dev fiat" not more :)
>
>-- 
>Jeff Garzik
>Senior Software Engineer and open source evangelist
>BitPay, Inc.  https://bitpay.com/

Regards,

Tamás Blummer
Founder, CEO
http://bitsofproof.com



signature.asc
Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development

Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc

[Wladimir]

On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 11:03 PM, Jeff Garzik  wrote:

> Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers
> to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is
> untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places).
>
I have used mBTC for a long time and never had cope with more than two
numbers to the right of the decimal (which is the norm in euro countries).
Sure, if we have another 100x+ price increase then μBTC is a better pick,
but right now that would give us *intimidating large numbers*.

Though I have always liked the idea of moving to mBTC or μBTC, I want the
community to take initiative before switching over the default in the
reference client. The alternative units should first be sufficiently known
to the user base.

It has been possible for a long time to set the reference client to those
units (and all mentions of monetary value are accompanied with a unit).
Maybe we should stealthily collect people's settings and switch over once a
majority switched *ducks*.

Or, more seriously, maybe add a popup when upgrading the first time to 0.9
with an explanation where people can reconsider their unit setting?

Wladimir



>  - Jeff
> On Nov 14, 2013 4:40 PM, "Mark Friedenbach"  wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>> Hash: SHA1
>>
>> For this reason I'm in favor of skipping mBTC and moving straight to
>> uBTC. Having eight, or even five decimal places is not intuitive to
>> the average user. Two decimal places is becoming standard for new
>> national currencies, and we wouldn't be too far from human scale
>> everyday numbers: 25.00uBTC ~= $0.01 currently. And I don't think very
>> many people on this list would consider bitcoin overvalued in the long
>> term perspective.
>>
>> Better to go through a confusing renumbering only once.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>> On 11/14/13 12:01 PM, Alan Reiner wrote:
>> > ... I'm also of the opinion that it's freakin' hard to change the
>> > base unit in such an established system.  There is no easy way to
>> > do this that doesn't cause more heartache than it's worth...
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
>> Version: GnuPG/MacGPG2 v2.0.19 (Darwin)
>> Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org
>> Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/
>>
>> iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJShT2JAAoJEAdzVfsmodw4DXAQAIJTNbpwBGTXuFyaxXQULf20
>> hMs7OlQZSOZOdsmSiPv2augxzbpa2DhhZjiosrScSBCjxMeYd4S6WgTt/b8moAYR
>> HD8pm88JyCKDOd7bOmzTkgDOTBBFfH+islmOY9VTdeKGHeOHH6yyLMKwnUpa+S89
>> 4YtdzlIXAtfT37dpR5E4cHPmAYCbrRsNOB6j5ohVl2VqRou2vkwoJr/YvaW54M8i
>> ucIZyai2qjNWyJLcZC9QWi9Yw/W/n9QYE2mHyL0qWNaIrZVn6WGty8KpYq+i7aeU
>> 4N4UdtLT7FAhWYec9nmEec868WsUsd+H3/WSWViMinUKO4YA3cyxWDL7MTmTRsci
>> g0R4WGYCzMM3cEWz5ycf5KEBPH/nDlbqFmEartTffqKXgrK5Ohhw+28Iqw5KcDX8
>> SVx34lw2yHWmTeIMY8d3qYKqBdcsvixDUD3xvq+ZqEIa+bZw12s4LIzqmir84TB8
>> fB4bdq5GddXX0PK4pboXL+Nib0OVK72YgYnVs/ejlBmeiG8Ixoz4/ygR5MHm8jcw
>> tSiwH0xohOJWg3lJj0vZorubXoECcOqwPzsZkwnT9irbrvOuk2jCPvrkEC8U9fgA
>> XHgirStS49/lI/iUWrRchoTt5iuwG18G4+E81V/DMsrSkYlipuf2DlEXiapn3hWz
>> ccP053+6o5Rgpc7J1aa0
>> =QW1i
>> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>>
>>
>> --
>> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
>> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
>> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
>> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
>>
>> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
>> ___
>> Bitcoin-development mailing list
>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>>
>
>
> --
> DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
> OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
> Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
> Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk
> ___
> Bitcoin-development mailing list
> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
>
>
--
DreamFactory - Open Source REST & JSON Services for HTML5 & Native Apps
OAuth, Users, Roles, SQL, NoSQL, BLOB Storage and External API Access
Free app hosting. Or install the open source package on any LAMP server.
Sign up and see examples for AngularJS, jQuery, Sencha Touch and Native!
http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63469471&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk___
Bitcoin-development mailing list
Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
h