[Bitcoin-development] First-Seen-Safe Replace-by-Fee patch against Bitcoin Core v0.10.2
First-seen-safe Replace-by-Fee is now available as a patch against v0.10.2: https://github.com/petertodd/bitcoin/tree/first-seen-safe-rbf-v0.10.2 I've also had a pull-req against git HEAD open for a few weeks now: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176#issuecomment-104877829 I've got some hashing power interested in running this patch in the near future, so I'm offering a bounty of up to 1 BTC to anyone who can find a way to attack miners running this patch. Specifically, I'm concerned about things that would lead to significant losses for those miners. A total crash would be considered very serious - 1 BTC - while excess bandwidth usage would be considered minor - more like 0.1 BTC. (remember that this would have to be bandwidth significantly in excess of existing attacks) For reference, here's an example of a crash exploit found by Suhas Daftuar: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/6176#issuecomment-104877829 If two people report the same or overlapping issues, first person will get priority. Adding a new test that demos your exploit to the unit tests will be looked upon favorably. That said, in general I'm not going to make any hard promises with regards to payouts and will be using my best judgement. I've got a bit over 2BTC budgetted for this, which is coming out of my own pockets - I'm not rich! All applicants are however welcome to troll me on reddit if you think I'm being unfair. Suhas: speaking of, feel free to email me a Bitcoin address! :) -- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 06dd456cf5ff8bbb56cf88e9314711d55b75c8d23cccddd5 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
[Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ TL;DR: > In 2013, GIMP’s developers pulled the GIMP Windows downloads from > SourceForge. SourceForge was full of misleading advertisements > masquerading as “Download” buttons — something that’s a problem all over > the web. [...] > In 2015, SourceForge pushed back. Considering the old GIMP account on > SourceForge “abandoned,” they took control over it, locking out the > original maintainer. They then put GIMP downloads back up on SourceForge, > wrapped in SourceForge’s own junkware-filled installer. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: > http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core release announcements for a long time. No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issue of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can't agree where to move to. Wladimir -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their messages, and at the same time limit spam. Any thoughts? Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: >> http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ > All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from > sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core > release announcements for a long time. > > No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issue of > moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can't agree > where to move to. > > Wladimir > > > -- -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
I like elegant solutions and while eventually I can see a "pay to contribute" service, I don't imagine you'll get consensus in short order. List provider costs are pretty reasonable, so if that's the hurdle to overcome I'm happy to offer sponsorship. Ivan Brightly SolidX Partners On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Andy Schroder wrote: > Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in > sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to > always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an > agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also > thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this > cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list > subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), > as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their > messages, and at the same time limit spam. > > > > Any thoughts? > > Andy Schroder > > On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: > >> > http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ > > All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from > sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core > release announcements for a long time. > > > > No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The > issue of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people > can't agree where to move to. > > > > Wladimir > > > > > > > -- > > > > -- > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
The mail list is public, so it's not like the data on it is somehow sensitive. Sourcefoge is fine, it has a nice web UI where you can browse the message and sort/order them as you want, etc. Why would you want to move to a paid solution? And why would you want users to have to pay per message? This is the worst idea ever from my point of view. We want to encourage people to join the community, run full nodes, ask questions, come with solutions, ideas for improvements and so on. Everyone should read and write and contribute as much as possible with ideas in debates. You never know who can have bright ideas in some contexts. Bottom line is so far sourceforge handles the mail lists just fine. I don't see a single advantage another mail list provider / system could offer, except some headache and extra work for migration. The software distribution via sourcefoge was cancelled for obvious reasons which I fully understand and agree to, but it has nothing to do with the mail lists. We have way more important things to brainstorm about. On 6/10/2015 7:46 PM, Andy Schroder wrote: > Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in > sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to > always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an > agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also > thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this > cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list > subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), > as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their > messages, and at the same time limit spam. > > > > Any thoughts? > > Andy Schroder > > On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: >>> http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ >> All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from >> sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core >> release announcements for a long time. >> >> No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issue >> of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can't >> agree where to move to. >> >> Wladimir >> >> >> -- > > > -- > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
Hello Troy, I like the idea of the live mirrors. I'm personally just an amateur at setting up e-mail servers, but the first concern I have is that everyone hosting a mirror may not necessarily use the same SMTP MTA. I personally use postfix, but I'm not sure what most people use. Some other features I'd like to see required is PGP/MIME support and ensuring that digital signatures are not broken by footers, etc. appended to the bottom of the message by the list. It might be nice to also allow for HTML messages? Here is a link with some current statistics to get an idea what the load may be. I've been told there are about 1,200 subscribers. http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.comp.bitcoin.devel Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 02:02 PM, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: I'll sponsor it, if we agree to implement a HashCash spam filter in the next 6 months. I've run mail servers for $DAYJOB for 5 or so years, and I've run my own personal server for the last 14. Since Bitcoin is a perfectly good HashCash system, I'm thinking a http://www.courier-mta.org/courierfilter.html filter plugin that checks to ensure that the required bitcoin fee has been paid, or better yet included in the message in some standard form. I'd like to have several other people with linux admin experience also agree to host live mirrors of the list, which could be switched over by whomever controls the relevant MX records for the mail list. What do you think a reasonable per-message fee should be, such that a couple of independent admins can reasonably expect to be able to pay $250/month each for their time and server hosting/bandwidth costs? I also think that anyone who's contributed more than say 10 or 15 commits to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors should be excluded from the pay-with-bitcoin filter, as they have paid with code. The rest of us should be paying to distribute and archive their efforts. On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:46:49PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their messages, and at the same time limit spam. Any thoughts? Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core release announcements for a long time. No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issue of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can't agree where to move to. Wladimir -- -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
[Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
[I'm currently wading through bitcoin-development. I'm still about a month behind, so I apologize in advance for any noisy redundancy in this post.] While reading about blocksize, I've just finished Mike Hearn's blog post describing expected systemic behavior as actual blocks approach the current limit (with or without non-protocol-changing implementation improvements): https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32 One detail Mike uses to argue against the "fee's will save us" line of reasoning is that wallets have no good way to learn fee information. So, here's a proposal to fix that: put fee and (and perhaps block size, UTXO, etc...) statistics into the locally-verifiable data available to SPV clients (ie: block headers). It's easy to imagine a hard fork that places details like per-block total fees, transaction count, fee variance, UTXO delta, etc... in a each block header. This would allow SPV clients to rely on this data with the same PoW-backed assurances as all other header data. This mechanism seems valuable regardless of the outcome of blocksize debate. So long as fees are interesting or important, SPV clients should know about them. (Same for other stats such as UTXO count.) Upgrading the protocol without a hard-fork may be possible and is left as an exercise for the reader. ;-) -- Nathan Wilcox Least Authoritarian email: nat...@leastauthority.com twitter: @least_nathan PGP: 11169993 / AAAC 5675 E3F7 514C 67ED E9C9 3BFE 5263 1116 9993 -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
I'll sponsor it, if we agree to implement a HashCash spam filter in the next 6 months. I've run mail servers for $DAYJOB for 5 or so years, and I've run my own personal server for the last 14. Since Bitcoin is a perfectly good HashCash system, I'm thinking a http://www.courier-mta.org/courierfilter.html filter plugin that checks to ensure that the required bitcoin fee has been paid, or better yet included in the message in some standard form. I'd like to have several other people with linux admin experience also agree to host live mirrors of the list, which could be switched over by whomever controls the relevant MX records for the mail list. What do you think a reasonable per-message fee should be, such that a couple of independent admins can reasonably expect to be able to pay $250/month each for their time and server hosting/bandwidth costs? I also think that anyone who's contributed more than say 10 or 15 commits to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors should be excluded from the pay-with-bitcoin filter, as they have paid with code. The rest of us should be paying to distribute and archive their efforts. On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:46:49PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: > Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in > sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to > always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an > agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also > thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this > cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list > subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), > as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their > messages, and at the same time limit spam. > > > > Any thoughts? > > Andy Schroder > > On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: > >> http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ > > All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from > > sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core > > release announcements for a long time. > > > > No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issue > > of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can't > > agree where to move to. > > > > Wladimir > > > > > > -- > > > -- > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' ho...@hozed.org 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soulgrid.coop Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
I think if the consensus is "pay with commits or pay with bitcoin" we might have a consensus from the people that actually matter very quickly, because they've already paid ;) My opinion is the most sustainable solution would be to identify a team of admins and use something like Digital Ocean's new team accounts feature and have someone like SolidX contribute funds for the servers and a few hours a week from one of their sysadmins to the team. I am dubious of most commercial list-as-a-service providers for the same reason I am dubious of sourceforge. Market conditions change and then all of a sudden the fact you're in control of a popular list becomes more valuable than what your customer is paying you to run the list. If the list provider can actively help out in encouraging read-only mirrors of the list archives, then I think we mitigate the above business risk. On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 02:28:55PM -0400, Ivan Brightly wrote: > I like elegant solutions and while eventually I can see a "pay to > contribute" service, I don't imagine you'll get consensus in short order. > > List provider costs are pretty reasonable, so if that's the hurdle to > overcome I'm happy to offer sponsorship. > > Ivan Brightly > SolidX Partners > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:46 PM, Andy Schroder > wrote: > > > Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in > > sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to > > always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an > > agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also > > thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this > > cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list > > subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), > > as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their > > messages, and at the same time limit spam. > > > > > > > > Any thoughts? > > > > Andy Schroder > > > > On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: > > >> > > http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ > > > All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from > > sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core > > release announcements for a long time. > > > > > > No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The > > issue of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people > > can't agree where to move to. > > > > > > Wladimir > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > -- > > ___ > > Bitcoin-development mailing list > > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > -- > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' ho...@hozed.org 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soulgrid.coop Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
Hello, A couple of motivations for a mailing list switch: 1. Sometimes the mailing list delays delivery for 10 minutes to several days. 2. There are usually lots of ads at the footer of the messages. Really confuses new readers (for me at least), and seems like it really pollutes such a historical dialog that may be referenced long into the future. How would it be if the 10 Commandments, Magna Carta, Bill of Rights, The Sermon on the Mount, or The Gettysburg Address had ads intertwined within them? 3. Don't think HTML messages are allowed. 4. Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages because the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my e-mail client doesn't verify them all. Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 02:36 PM, s7r wrote: The mail list is public, so it's not like the data on it is somehow sensitive. Sourcefoge is fine, it has a nice web UI where you can browse the message and sort/order them as you want, etc. Why would you want to move to a paid solution? And why would you want users to have to pay per message? This is the worst idea ever from my point of view. We want to encourage people to join the community, run full nodes, ask questions, come with solutions, ideas for improvements and so on. Everyone should read and write and contribute as much as possible with ideas in debates. You never know who can have bright ideas in some contexts. Bottom line is so far sourceforge handles the mail lists just fine. I don't see a single advantage another mail list provider / system could offer, except some headache and extra work for migration. The software distribution via sourcefoge was cancelled for obvious reasons which I fully understand and agree to, but it has nothing to do with the mail lists. We have way more important things to brainstorm about. On 6/10/2015 7:46 PM, Andy Schroder wrote: Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their messages, and at the same time limit spam. Any thoughts? Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core release announcements for a long time. No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issue of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can't agree where to move to. Wladimir -- -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 02:59:48PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: > Hello, > > A couple of motivations for a mailing list switch: > > 1. Sometimes the mailing list delays delivery for 10 minutes to several >days. > 2. There are usually lots of ads at the footer of the messages. Really >confuses new readers (for me at least), and seems like it really >pollutes such a historical dialog that may be referenced long into >the future. How would it be if the 10 Commandments, Magna Carta, >Bill of Rights, The Sermon on the Mount, or The Gettysburg Address >had ads intertwined within them? > 3. Don't think HTML messages are allowed. Please keep it that way; HTML messages have no place on a technical mailing list. > 4. Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages because >the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my e-mail client >doesn't verify them all. What type of digital signatures specifically? What email client? -- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 04e3d7b1cff56c5264b16dd79d10a26683c2fabb11669b5d signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 03:03 PM, Peter Todd wrote: 4. Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages because the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my e-mail client doesn't verify them all. What type of digital signatures specifically? What email client? I think they are usually PGP/MIME signatures that are not working right. If you'll notice from my e-mail headers: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
"My opinion is the most sustainable solution would be to identify a team of admins and use something like Digital Ocean's new team accounts feature and have someone like SolidX contribute funds for the servers and a few hours a week from one of their sysadmins to the team." This is a perfectly fine option. Alternatively, if the paid mailing list option is preferred, I'd suggest Intermedia: -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
It could be done by agreeing on a data format and encoding it in an op_return output in the coinbase transaction. If it catches on it could later be enforced with a soft fork. For real up-to-the-minute fee calculations you're also going to want to look at the current mempool, how many transactions are waiting, what fees they're paying, etc, but of course that information is susceptible to sybil attack. In practice what we're doing for now is using services like blockcypher who's business is improving reliability of zero-conf to tell us what fee-per-kb is needed, and then putting a hard coded range around it to protect against the service being compromised. This is also the kind of thing being done for exchange rate data which is probably the bigger security risk until bitcoin becomes the standard unit of account for the planet. Aaron Voisine co-founder and CEO breadwallet.com On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Nathan Wilcox wrote: > [I'm currently wading through bitcoin-development. I'm still about a month > behind, so I apologize in advance for any noisy redundancy in this post.] > > While reading about blocksize, I've just finished Mike Hearn's blog post > describing expected systemic behavior as actual blocks approach the current > limit (with or without non-protocol-changing implementation improvements): > > https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32 > > > One detail Mike uses to argue against the "fee's will save us" line of > reasoning is that wallets have no good way to learn fee information. > > So, here's a proposal to fix that: put fee and (and perhaps block size, > UTXO, etc...) statistics into the locally-verifiable data available to SPV > clients (ie: block headers). > > > It's easy to imagine a hard fork that places details like per-block total > fees, transaction count, fee variance, UTXO delta, etc... in a each block > header. This would allow SPV clients to rely on this data with the same > PoW-backed assurances as all other header data. > > This mechanism seems valuable regardless of the outcome of blocksize > debate. So long as fees are interesting or important, SPV clients should > know about them. (Same for other stats such as UTXO count.) > > Upgrading the protocol without a hard-fork may be possible and is left as > an exercise for the reader. ;-) > > -- > Nathan Wilcox > Least Authoritarian > > email: nat...@leastauthority.com > twitter: @least_nathan > PGP: 11169993 / AAAC 5675 E3F7 514C 67ED E9C9 3BFE 5263 1116 9993 > > > -- > > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 03:12:02PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: > > Andy Schroder > > On 06/10/2015 03:03 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > > > >>4. Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages because > >>the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my e-mail client > >>doesn't verify them all. > >What type of digital signatures specifically? What email client? > > I think they are usually PGP/MIME signatures that are not working > right. If you'll notice from my e-mail headers: > > User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 > Thunderbird/24.2.0 > X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 It might be that Thunderbird doesn't properly handle messages with both signed and unsigned content. I use mutt myself, which handles it just fine. (the sigs on your emails verify just fine for instance) -- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 134f9a433a4bece258b5035ecda33384f820a60493ca2887 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 03:20 PM, Peter Todd wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 03:12:02PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 03:03 PM, Peter Todd wrote: 4. Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages because the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my e-mail client doesn't verify them all. What type of digital signatures specifically? What email client? I think they are usually PGP/MIME signatures that are not working right. If you'll notice from my e-mail headers: User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 X-Enigmail-Version: 1.6 It might be that Thunderbird doesn't properly handle messages with both signed and unsigned content. I use mutt myself, which handles it just fine. (the sigs on your emails verify just fine for instance) It's possible that the enigmail extension is not working right, but I was under the impression that it is just feeding data to gpg and then receiving the response back. It's possible that your e-mail you just checked was not sent through mailman since I also replied directly to you explicitly (in which case the message has not been modified) and you probably have the setting in the mailing list set to not send duplicate messages if you are an explicit TO. I just deleted all explicit TOs for this message, so everyone should be receiving it through the mailing list and not directly. Is the signature still valid for you now? I think enigmail can handle messages with some signed and unsigned content, and maybe PGP/MIME inherently does not support this and a mailing list re-writing parts of messages is an expected action? If this message re-writing is an expected action and I'm correct that PGP/MIME does not support partially signed content, then maybe it is just a recommendation for this mailing list to not use PGP/MIME for messages sent to the list? Can anyone else confirm? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 03:36:42PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: > It's possible that the enigmail extension is not working right, but > I was under the impression that it is just feeding data to gpg and > then receiving the response back. It's possible that your e-mail you > just checked was not sent through mailman since I also replied > directly to you explicitly (in which case the message has not been > modified) and you probably have the setting in the mailing list set > to not send duplicate messages if you are an explicit TO. I just > deleted all explicit TOs for this message, so everyone should be > receiving it through the mailing list and not directly. Is the > signature still valid for you now? I think enigmail can handle It has perfectly valid signatures, as do your earlier messages to the list. > messages with some signed and unsigned content, and maybe PGP/MIME > inherently does not support this and a mailing list re-writing parts > of messages is an expected action? If this message re-writing is an > expected action and I'm correct that PGP/MIME does not support > partially signed content, then maybe it is just a recommendation for > this mailing list to not use PGP/MIME for messages sent to the list? PGP/MIME definitely does support partially signed content. -- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 09e865d07f75341a5f3dc15f0e149055a241eedd552c3b88 signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Andy Schroder wrote: > Hello, > > A couple of motivations for a mailing list switch: > >1. Sometimes the mailing list delays delivery for 10 minutes to >several days. >2. There are usually lots of ads at the footer of the messages. Really >confuses new readers (for me at least), and seems like it really pollutes >such a historical dialog that may be referenced long into the future. How >would it be if the 10 Commandments, Magna Carta, Bill of Rights, The Sermon >on the Mount, or The Gettysburg Address had ads intertwined within them? > 3. Don't think HTML messages are allowed. >4. Seems like digital signatures are always broken on messages because >the list server slightly modifies them (?), so my e-mail client doesn't >verify them all. > > Not only -- mail header rewrites cause all my emails to go into people's spam folders, if they were not directly listed in the To/CC headers... > >1. > > > > Andy Schroder > > On 06/10/2015 02:36 PM, s7r wrote: > > The mail list is public, so it's not like the data on it is somehow > sensitive. Sourcefoge is fine, it has a nice web UI where you can browse > the message and sort/order them as you want, etc. > > Why would you want to move to a paid solution? And why would you want > users to have to pay per message? This is the worst idea ever from my > point of view. We want to encourage people to join the community, run > full nodes, ask questions, come with solutions, ideas for improvements > and so on. Everyone should read and write and contribute as much as > possible with ideas in debates. You never know who can have bright ideas > in some contexts. > > Bottom line is so far sourceforge handles the mail lists just fine. I > don't see a single advantage another mail list provider / system could > offer, except some headache and extra work for migration. The software > distribution via sourcefoge was cancelled for obvious reasons which I > fully understand and agree to, but it has nothing to do with the mail > lists. We have way more important things to brainstorm about. > > On 6/10/2015 7:46 PM, Andy Schroder wrote: > > Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in > sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to > always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an > agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also > thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this > cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list > subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), > as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their > messages, and at the same time limit spam. > > > > Any thoughts? > > Andy Schroder > > On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: > > > http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ > > All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from > sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon Core > release announcements for a long time. > > No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The issue of > moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and people can't agree > where to move to. > > Wladimir > > > -- > > > -- > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing > listBitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.nethttps://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > > > > -- > > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote: > It could be done by agreeing on a data format and encoding it in an > op_return output in the coinbase transaction. If it catches on it could > later be enforced with a soft fork. > > Sounds plausible, except SPV protocols would need to include this coinbase txn if it's going to help SPV clients. (Until a softfork is activated, SPV clients should not rely on this encoding, since until that time the results can be fabricated by individual miners.) > For real up-to-the-minute fee calculations you're also going to want to > look at the current mempool, how many transactions are waiting, what fees > they're paying, etc, but of course that information is susceptible to sybil > attack. > Hm, when you mention Sybil attack, I don't quite follow. When a client relies on any report of a mempool [*], this is already outside the realm of locally-verifiable SPV information, so they are already susceptible to the service making false claims. If that's acceptable (and in many cases it may be) then this whole mechanism is moot, because the client can ask the service for fee statistics for past blocks. > In practice what we're doing for now is using services like blockcypher > who's business is improving reliability of zero-conf to tell us what > fee-per-kb is needed, and then putting a hard coded range around it to > protect against the service being compromised. > This is interesting for me, because I had previously believed fees were fairly static presently, and also because I like hearing about real life wallet implementations. So if this "SPV Fee Stats" feature were added, a wallet might rely on an API for timely stats (aka "block height < 1") then verify that the API isn't lying after doing SPV verification of fee stats for confirmed blocks. This is also the kind of thing being done for exchange rate data which is > probably the bigger security risk until bitcoin becomes the standard unit > of account for the planet. > > That makes sense, although there's no SPV equivalent for exchange data. Aaron Voisine > co-founder and CEO > breadwallet.com > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Nathan Wilcox > wrote: > >> [I'm currently wading through bitcoin-development. I'm still about a >> month behind, so I apologize in advance for any noisy redundancy in this >> post.] >> >> While reading about blocksize, I've just finished Mike Hearn's blog post >> describing expected systemic behavior as actual blocks approach the current >> limit (with or without non-protocol-changing implementation improvements): >> >> https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32 >> >> >> One detail Mike uses to argue against the "fee's will save us" line of >> reasoning is that wallets have no good way to learn fee information. >> >> So, here's a proposal to fix that: put fee and (and perhaps block size, >> UTXO, etc...) statistics into the locally-verifiable data available to SPV >> clients (ie: block headers). >> >> >> It's easy to imagine a hard fork that places details like per-block total >> fees, transaction count, fee variance, UTXO delta, etc... in a each block >> header. This would allow SPV clients to rely on this data with the same >> PoW-backed assurances as all other header data. >> >> This mechanism seems valuable regardless of the outcome of blocksize >> debate. So long as fees are interesting or important, SPV clients should >> know about them. (Same for other stats such as UTXO count.) >> >> Upgrading the protocol without a hard-fork may be possible and is left as >> an exercise for the reader. ;-) >> >> -- >> Nathan Wilcox >> Least Authoritarian >> >> email: nat...@leastauthority.com >> twitter: @least_nathan >> PGP: 11169993 / AAAC 5675 E3F7 514C 67ED E9C9 3BFE 5263 1116 9993 >> >> >> -- >> >> ___ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >> >> > -- Nathan Wilcox Least Authoritarian email: nat...@leastauthority.com twitter: @least_nathan PGP: 11169993 / AAAC 5675 E3F7 514C 67ED E9C9 3BFE 5263 1116 9993 -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 02:00:27PM -0600, Nathan Wilcox wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote: > > > It could be done by agreeing on a data format and encoding it in an > > op_return output in the coinbase transaction. If it catches on it could > > later be enforced with a soft fork. > > > > > Sounds plausible, except SPV protocols would need to include this coinbase > txn if it's going to help SPV clients. (Until a softfork is activated, SPV > clients should not rely on this encoding, since until that time the results > can be fabricated by individual miners.) Fee stats can always be fabricated by individual miners because fees can be paid out-of-band. -- 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org 1245bd2f5c99379ee76836227ded9c08324894faabc0d27f signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
Hello, Thanks for testing this clarifying things about PGP/MIME and I apologize for wasting your time with it. It looks like a SPAM filtering service I use is re-writing some parts of some plain text messages with some special/alternate encoding characters (not sure what it really is). Anyway, if I manually export/import a message from gmane (bypassing my e-mail SPAM filter), thunderbird/enigmail is not having problems verifying signatures. I guess I never realized this before because all other signed messages I normally receive are encrypted and the SPAM filter does not mess with non plain text data. Andy Schroder On 06/10/2015 03:43 PM, Peter Todd wrote: On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 03:36:42PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: It's possible that the enigmail extension is not working right, but I was under the impression that it is just feeding data to gpg and then receiving the response back. It's possible that your e-mail you just checked was not sent through mailman since I also replied directly to you explicitly (in which case the message has not been modified) and you probably have the setting in the mailing list set to not send duplicate messages if you are an explicit TO. I just deleted all explicit TOs for this message, so everyone should be receiving it through the mailing list and not directly. Is the signature still valid for you now? I think enigmail can handle It has perfectly valid signatures, as do your earlier messages to the list. messages with some signed and unsigned content, and maybe PGP/MIME inherently does not support this and a mailing list re-writing parts of messages is an expected action? If this message re-writing is an expected action and I'm correct that PGP/MIME does not support partially signed content, then maybe it is just a recommendation for this mailing list to not use PGP/MIME for messages sent to the list? PGP/MIME definitely does support partially signed content. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
I described an alternative way for SPV wallets to learn about fees some time ago. It requires a new transaction version that embeds output values into the signed data. Then an upgrade to the P2P protocol to send UTXO data along with transactions when they are relayed. The idea is that the wallet sets a Bloom filter with an FP rate that ensures it will see some random subset of all transactions being broadcast on the network, and with the extra data, it can calculate the fee paid. Once a transaction broadcast is observed the wallet includes that tx hash in its next Bloom filter, thus it can see which block the tx confirmed in. By measuring the amount of time that passed between a broadcast and it appearing in a block, it can calculate its own tables of fee paid:time taken. This has the advantage that you don't have to trust miners to publish data accurately. However it requires some protocol upgrades and of course, a lot of new code in SPV wallets. The way Bitcoin Wallet for Android handles fees currently is to just update a hard coded value every so often. -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
> Sounds plausible, except SPV protocols would need to include this coinbase txn if it's going to help SPV clients. Yes you'd either need a way to add those transactions to the bloom filter, or add/modify a p2p message to request it specifically. > when you mention Sybil attack, I don't quite follow. I just mean that someone could spin up a bunch of malicious p2p nodes that lied about mempool data. It's a bit worse for SPV clients since they can't verify that unconfirmed transactions are valid. > I had previously believed fees were fairly static presently, I actually just added it the other day after getting blockcypher to include it in their api. The current release is still using a hard coded fee rate. Aaron Voisine co-founder and CEO breadwallet.com On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:00 PM, Nathan Wilcox wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Aaron Voisine wrote: > >> It could be done by agreeing on a data format and encoding it in an >> op_return output in the coinbase transaction. If it catches on it could >> later be enforced with a soft fork. >> >> > Sounds plausible, except SPV protocols would need to include this coinbase > txn if it's going to help SPV clients. (Until a softfork is activated, SPV > clients should not rely on this encoding, since until that time the results > can be fabricated by individual miners.) > > >> For real up-to-the-minute fee calculations you're also going to want to >> look at the current mempool, how many transactions are waiting, what fees >> they're paying, etc, but of course that information is susceptible to sybil >> attack. >> > > Hm, when you mention Sybil attack, I don't quite follow. > > When a client relies on any report of a mempool [*], this is already > outside the realm of locally-verifiable SPV information, so they are > already susceptible to the service making false claims. If that's > acceptable (and in many cases it may be) then this whole mechanism is moot, > because the client can ask the service for fee statistics for past blocks. > > >> In practice what we're doing for now is using services like blockcypher >> who's business is improving reliability of zero-conf to tell us what >> fee-per-kb is needed, and then putting a hard coded range around it to >> protect against the service being compromised. >> > > This is interesting for me, because I had previously believed fees were > fairly static presently, and also because I like hearing about real life > wallet implementations. > > So if this "SPV Fee Stats" feature were added, a wallet might rely on an > API for timely stats (aka "block height < 1") then verify that the API > isn't lying after doing SPV verification of fee stats for confirmed blocks. > > > This is also the kind of thing being done for exchange rate data which is >> probably the bigger security risk until bitcoin becomes the standard unit >> of account for the planet. >> >> > That makes sense, although there's no SPV equivalent for exchange data. > > > Aaron Voisine >> co-founder and CEO >> breadwallet.com >> >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:37 AM, Nathan Wilcox < >> nat...@leastauthority.com> wrote: >> >>> [I'm currently wading through bitcoin-development. I'm still about a >>> month behind, so I apologize in advance for any noisy redundancy in this >>> post.] >>> >>> While reading about blocksize, I've just finished Mike Hearn's blog post >>> describing expected systemic behavior as actual blocks approach the current >>> limit (with or without non-protocol-changing implementation improvements): >>> >>> https://medium.com/@octskyward/crash-landing-f5cc19908e32 >>> >>> >>> One detail Mike uses to argue against the "fee's will save us" line of >>> reasoning is that wallets have no good way to learn fee information. >>> >>> So, here's a proposal to fix that: put fee and (and perhaps block size, >>> UTXO, etc...) statistics into the locally-verifiable data available to SPV >>> clients (ie: block headers). >>> >>> >>> It's easy to imagine a hard fork that places details like per-block >>> total fees, transaction count, fee variance, UTXO delta, etc... in a each >>> block header. This would allow SPV clients to rely on this data with the >>> same PoW-backed assurances as all other header data. >>> >>> This mechanism seems valuable regardless of the outcome of blocksize >>> debate. So long as fees are interesting or important, SPV clients should >>> know about them. (Same for other stats such as UTXO count.) >>> >>> Upgrading the protocol without a hard-fork may be possible and is left >>> as an exercise for the reader. ;-) >>> >>> -- >>> Nathan Wilcox >>> Least Authoritarian >>> >>> email: nat...@leastauthority.com >>> twitter: @least_nathan >>> PGP: 11169993 / AAAC 5675 E3F7 514C 67ED E9C9 3BFE 5263 1116 9993 >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> ___ >>> Bitcoin-development mailing list >>> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposal: SPV Fee Discovery mechanism
The other complication is that this will tend to be a lagging indicator based on network congestion from the last time you connected. If we assume that transactions are being dropped in an unpredictable way when blocks are full, knowing the network congestion *right now* is critical, and even then you just have to hope that someone who wants that space more than you do doesn't show up after you disconnect. Aaron Voisine co-founder and CEO breadwallet.com On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 1:26 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: > I described an alternative way for SPV wallets to learn about fees some > time ago. It requires a new transaction version that embeds output values > into the signed data. Then an upgrade to the P2P protocol to send UTXO data > along with transactions when they are relayed. > > The idea is that the wallet sets a Bloom filter with an FP rate that > ensures it will see some random subset of all transactions being broadcast > on the network, and with the extra data, it can calculate the fee paid. > Once a transaction broadcast is observed the wallet includes that tx hash > in its next Bloom filter, thus it can see which block the tx confirmed in. > By measuring the amount of time that passed between a broadcast and it > appearing in a block, it can calculate its own tables of fee paid:time > taken. > > This has the advantage that you don't have to trust miners to publish data > accurately. However it requires some protocol upgrades and of course, a lot > of new code in SPV wallets. > > The way Bitcoin Wallet for Android handles fees currently is to just > update a hard coded value every so often. > > > -- > > ___ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development > > -- ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Lexicographical Indexing of Transaction Inputs and Outputs
Thanks for the feedback. I think I have reflected all of your requested changes in the latest version, in the BIP and sample code: https://github.com/kristovatlas/rfc/tree/master/bips -Kr On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > On Mon, Jun 08, 2015 at 06:53:54PM -0400, Kristov Atlas wrote: > > Two other things: > > > > > On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 10:35 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > > > > > Why mention SIGHASH_SINGLE at all? Its use-case is highly specialized > > > protocols; you haven't taken into account the needs of those protocols. > > > For BIP's it's better to stick to the use-cases where the need is clear > > > and there exists running code that to speculate too much on future > uses. > > > With signature hashing in particular it's not yet clear at all what > > > future OP_CHECKSIG's will look like, let alone the various ways people > > > will use sighash for smart contract type stuff. > > > > > > You'd be better off presenting the BIP in terms of a generic statement > > > that "except when otherwise prevented by advanced signature hashing > > > requirements, wallet software must emit transactions sorted according > to > > > the following" You can then specify the two common cases in detail: > > > > > > 1) SIGHASH_ALL: input and output order signed, so sort appropriately > > > > > > 2) SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY: input order not signed, so software should > emit > > >transactions sorted, recognising that the actual mined order may be > > >changed. > > > > > > > That makes sense. I updated the language as follows -- your thoughts? > Keep > > in mind this BIP is informational, and so people are free to ignore it. > > > > "Applicability: This BIP applies to all transactions of signature hash > type > > SIGHASH_ALL. Additionally, software compliant with this BIP that allows > > later parties to update the transaction (e.g. using signature hash types > > SIGHASH_NONE or a variant of SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY) should emit > > lexicographically sorted inputs and outputs, although they may later be > > modified. Transactions that have index dependencies between transactions > or > > within the same transaction are covered under the section of this BIP > > entitled “Handling Input/Output Dependencies.”" > > I'd keep it even simpler than that, and just say for now that such > use-cases are out of the scope of this BIP, however those standards > should come up with some kind of deterministic standard that meets the > needs of the protocol. Again, there's a bunch of possible use-cases here > and we just can't predict them; focus on the fact that the *spirit* of > what this BIP is about is applicable and future standards should be > developed. > > So I'd change the "Applicability" section to: > > This BIP applies to all transactions where the order of inputs and > outputs does not matter. This is true for the vast majority of > transactions as they simply move funds from one place to another. > > Currently this generally refers to transactions where SIGHASH_ALL is > used, in which case the signatures commit to the exact order of input > and outputs. In the case where SIGHASH_ANYONECANPAY and/or SIGHASH_NONE > has been used (e.g. crowdfunds) the order of inputs and/or outputs may > not be signed, however compliant software should still emit transactions > with sorted inputs and outputs, even though they may later be modified > by others. > > In the event that future protocol upgrades introduce new signature hash > types, compliant software should apply the lexographic ordering > principle analogously. > > While out of scope of this BIP, protocols that do require a specified > order of inputs/outputs (e.g. due to use of SIGHASH_SINGLE) should > consider the goals of this BIP and how best to adapt them to the > specifics needs of those protocols. > > > Then remove the "handling input/output deps" section. > > > > Do you have a patch implementing deterministic tx ordering for Bitcoin > > > Core yet? > > > > > > > I'm not a frequent C programmer, so I'd prefer to let someone else take > > care of it, as a frequent committer of code would do a faster and more > > stylistically consistent job of it. If no one else will, however, I will. > > > > re: the actual ordering algorithm, having txids be sorted by with the > hex-based algorithm is odd. I'd simply say they're sorted as > little-endian byte arrays, or in other words, with the bytearr_cmp() > function, but with the order of bytes reversed. You also should say that > we're doing that to make the user see them in visually sorted order to > match expectations because txids are displayed as little-endian. > > For outputs, don't say "locking script", say "scriptPubKey". Secondly, > scriptPubKeys are not in little-endian representation - they have no > endianness to them. With output amount, there's no need to say that > they're unsigned or little-endian satoshies, just say they're sorted > largest/smallest amount first. > > "For the sake of efficiency, amounts wil
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to host this list?
And just like I did here, if I were a list member with good reputation, and felt like reposting something that did not make it to the list by accident or ommission, or a hashcash posting fee that was too high, it would end up on the list if enough people bothered to read it and either repost, or post the bond to pass the filter. On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 07:04:41PM +, Patrick Mccorry (PGR) wrote: > Yeah post back to list - its an interesting response. So members with a good > reputation could vote to say if the bond should be returned to the new > member. I just wanted to highlight that people who do not commit a lot of > code contribute in other, arguably equal ways. > > > From: Troy Benjegerdes > Sent: 10 June 2015 19:58 > To: Patrick Mccorry (PGR) > Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Is SourceForge still trustworthy enough to > host this list? > > Did you want responses sent back to the list? > > I think, if I had a revenue stream from a pay-to-post list in place, > the first thing I'd do is spend some time on a reputation/'post bond' > interface in which known users with a good reputation could post for > no charge, while if you were unknown or new to the list, you would > need to post a bond. > > If the consensus of the list was that your message was valuable, it > would be broadcast and archived no charge. > > If enough readers thought the message was spam, those readers could > collect the posted bond, thus compensating them for the time wasted > reading said spam. > > I would hope that in such an environment would still work for researchers. > Does this answer your concerns? Should I repost to the list, because > I do think your concern is worth sharing? > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 06:48:29PM +, Patrick Mccorry (PGR) wrote: > > What about researchers who do not commit code but help find problems in > > this space. I don't think a mailing should be a paid for service - as it's > > difficult to determine who should and should not pay. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On 10 Jun 2015, at 19:45, Troy Benjegerdes wrote: > > > > > > I'll sponsor it, if we agree to implement a HashCash spam filter > > > in the next 6 months. I've run mail servers for $DAYJOB for 5 or > > > so years, and I've run my own personal server for the last 14. > > > > > > Since Bitcoin is a perfectly good HashCash system, I'm thinking a > > > http://www.courier-mta.org/courierfilter.html filter plugin that > > > checks to ensure that the required bitcoin fee has been paid, or > > > better yet included in the message in some standard form. > > > > > > I'd like to have several other people with linux admin experience > > > also agree to host live mirrors of the list, which could be switched > > > over by whomever controls the relevant MX records for the mail list. > > > > > > What do you think a reasonable per-message fee should be, such that > > > a couple of independent admins can reasonably expect to be able to > > > pay $250/month each for their time and server hosting/bandwidth costs? > > > > > > I also think that anyone who's contributed more than say 10 or 15 > > > commits to https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/graphs/contributors > > > should be excluded from the pay-with-bitcoin filter, as they have > > > paid with code. The rest of us should be paying to distribute and > > > archive their efforts. > > > > > >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:46:49PM -0400, Andy Schroder wrote: > > >> Regarding changing the e-mail list provider. Is anyone interested in > > >> sponsoring it? There are non-free options, but it may be difficult to > > >> always ensure the fee is being paid to the provider. I think finding an > > >> agreeable free solution may have been the issue before? I've also > > >> thought of trying to make a pay per message or byte solution (and this > > >> cost could be dynamic based upon the number of current mailing list > > >> subscribers). This could solve the who pays problem (the sender pays), > > >> as well as motivate people to be more concise and clear with their > > >> messages, and at the same time limit spam. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> Any thoughts? > > >> > > >> Andy Schroder > > >> > > >>> On 06/10/2015 05:35 AM, Wladimir J. van der Laan wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 10:25:12AM +0200, xor wrote: > > http://www.howtogeek.com/218764/warning-don%E2%80%99t-download-software-from-sourceforge-if-you-can-help-it/ > > >>> All our downloads (even old ones) have recently been deleted from > > >>> sourceforge, for this reason. They haven't been mentioned in Bitcon > > >>> Core release announcements for a long time. > > >>> > > >>> No opinion on the mailing list. Though I think it's less urgent. The > > >>> issue of moving the mailinglist has come up before a few times and > > >>> people can't agree where to move to. > > >>> > > >>> Wladimir > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>
