> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Pat Mathews
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 7:21 PM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: RE: Genesis
>
>
> BTW - when you talk about people working
help of a
staff advocate - who was later transferred to a position where she could do
less harm or good.
http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
> Subject: RE: Genesis
> Date: Wed, 30 Jul 2008 18:16:03 -0500
>
> >
> >
>
> i was not the one who initiated the scarcity of commodities argument,
> although it is obviously that 3,000 years ago lo tech societies did not
> consume and pollute anywhere near the levels of almost seven billion
> (approaching 6,832,000,000) do today. prior to the agricultural
> revolution
>
> People will have to work longer. As life expectancies continue to
> increase, retirement age will have to increase too.
>
I understand that, and that's reasonable. The retirement age for Social
Security in the US has been moved up from 65 to 67 for folks my age and will
be 68 for folks a fe
On 31/07/2008, at 4:31 AM, Dan M wrote:
>
> Given the fact that Europe is showing resistance to the idea of
> significant
> additional immigration of non-Europeans, and that Japan has long
> held racial
> purity as important, I wonder who will take care of all the baby
> boomers as
> they en
On 30 Jul 2008, at 20:41, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> William T Goodall quoted:
>>
>> "The provisional Total Fertility Rate (TFR) for 2007 gives an
>> average of 1.91 children per woman in England and Wales. This is an
>> increase from 1.86 in 2006 and is the sixth consecutive annual
>> increase
William T Goodall quoted:
>
> "The provisional Total Fertility Rate (TFR) for 2007 gives an
> average of 1.91 children per woman in England and Wales. This is an
> increase from 1.86 in 2006 and is the sixth consecutive annual
> increase from a low point in 2001 where the TFR was 1.63. The l
On 30 Jul 2008, at 19:31, Dan M wrote:
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l-
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of William T Goodall
>> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:30 AM
>> To: Killer Bs (David Brin
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of William T Goodall
> Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:30 AM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Re: Genesis
>
>
> On 30 Jul 2008, at 15:46, Alberto M
On 30 Jul 2008, at 15:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> Dan M wrote:
>>
>> There is no evidence that, if the United States decided
>> to fade away as continental Europe is doing, instead of
>> having a ZPG birth rate, (...)
>>
> Brazil is fading away too. Last count is 1.8 births/female.
>
Below th
Dan M wrote:
>
> There is no evidence that, if the United States decided
> to fade away as continental Europe is doing, instead of
> having a ZPG birth rate, (...)
>
Brazil is fading away too. Last count is 1.8 births/female.
Alberto Monteiro
___
http:
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Jon Louis Mann
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2008 2:39 PM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Genesis
>
> > > What's wicked about bringing children into the
> > world that you have t
- Original Message -
From: "Kevin B. O'Brien" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion"
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2008 8:10 AM
Subject: Re: Genesis
> Wayne Eddy wrote:
>> Rising energy costs will probably cause a few prob
Alberto Monteiro wrote:
> Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
>
>>> Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but
>>> I don't see how Bush or Cheney for all their failings can
>>> be blamed for that particular problem.
>>>
>> I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oi
Doug Pensinger wrote:
> Kevin wrote:
>
>
>> Wayne Eddy wrote:
>>
>>> Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but I don't see
>>>
>> how
>>
>>> Bush or Cheney for all their failings can be blamed for that particular
>>>
>>> problem.
>>>
>> I'm thinking that
Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:
>
>> Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but
>> I don't see how Bush or Cheney for all their failings can
>> be blamed for that particular problem.
>
> I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oil
> producing region might have somethin
Kevin wrote:
> Wayne Eddy wrote:
> > Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but I don't see
> how
> > Bush or Cheney for all their failings can be blamed for that particular
> >
> > problem.
> I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oil producing
> region might
Wayne Eddy wrote:
> Rising energy costs will probably cause a few problems, but I don't see how
> Bush or Cheney for all their failings can be blamed for that particular
>
> problem.
I'm thinking that causing massive instability in the major oil producing
region might have something to do with i
At 11:52 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Wayne Eddy wrote:
>- Original Message -
>From: "Jon Louis Mann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion"
>Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:40 AM
>Subject: Genesis
>
>
> > it may well come to that, bruce, or the problem may be solved
- Original Message -
From: "Jon Louis Mann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion"
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:40 AM
Subject: Genesis
> it may well come to that, bruce, or the problem may be solved by the
> collapse of civilization. either way, it serves
At 08:01 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> > So if its a numbers game, how do you "win" by not
> > having children?
>
>actually you lose by having too many children and overpopulating the planet...
>
> > > the argument you should be forwarding is that affluent
> > societies stop
> >
Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>
> "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply,
> and replenish the earth, and subdue it." surely you don't believe that
> gawd created man to have dominion over every living thing that moves on the
> earth?
>
OTOH, if this command should be take
On Jul 26, 2008, at 6:38 PM, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:
> At 03:09 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
>
>> If our species were made up entirely of individuals who approached
>> decisions, especially important ones like whether it's wise to
>> reproduce, with as much thought toward collecti
At 07:12 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> > >are you suggesting it is rational to have more
> > enlightened
> > >children to balance those who are raised by cults and
> > jihadists,
> > >etc.? the mormons and various religious cults may not
> > have taken
> > >over the world, but the
At 05:44 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Doug Pensinger wrote:
>To be honest, I think the only real solution is a world government that has
>the power and the resources to correct severe problems.
>
>If one nation tries to do it alone, their motivations might be questioned
>and for good reason (see Iraq).
At 03:55 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>there has always been a gap between the haves and have nots with
>those at the bottom providing the labor and resources for those at
>the top. if they were really so enlightened they would prohibit the very greed
As the hot dog vendor sai
At 03:09 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Bruce Bostwick wrote:
>If our species were made up entirely of individuals who approached
>decisions, especially important ones like whether it's wise to
>reproduce, with as much thought toward collective benefit as
>individual gratification,
Perhaps that would b
At 02:35 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
> > I just don't see it happening according to their
> > script. Of those 8 or 10,
> > how many are going to follow their parent's ideology
> > lock step? How many
> > will rebel and provide a backlash? How isolated can they
> > remain in a
Jon wrote:
>
> the problem, doug, is that many undeveloped nations rich in resources are
> governed by despots who need to maintain an ignorant population in poverty
> so they can continue to use the wealth for their own purposes. when
> advanced societies enable this so they can continue their g
Bruce wrote:
>
> That's another matter entirely than restricting childbirth. That's a
> value distinction as to who is more or less entitled to reproduce.
>
> And on that, I will agree with you, that some parents are probably
> better candidates to reproduce the species than others. But, as a
>
From: "Jon Louis Mann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> unfortunately, throughout history, it is the "the best and the brightest"
> who have perpetrated evils on the poor and downtrodden. there have been
> exceptions, but over and over again governments and religions have used
> their ideology or dogma t
- Original Message -
From: "Bruce Bostwick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> The only exceptions I would make would be for people willing to help
> terraform and colonize other habitable bodies in the solar system.
> I'm pretty sure Mars' surface could be terraformed to the point where
> people co
Jon wrote:
>
>
> it is a numbers game, doug, and as long as it continues the planet will
> suffer. it is not realistic to suggest that enlightened people will save the
> planet by breeding. people who are able to enjoy the fruits of their wealth
> are not about to invest in breeding units of lab
- Original Message -
From: "Jon Louis Mann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion"
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 5:38 AM
Subject: Genesis
>> > What's wicked about bringing children into the
>> world that you have the
>> resources to support and nurture?
>> Doug
On Sat, Jul 26, 2008 at 5:03 PM, Bruce Bostwick
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
> On Jul 26, 2008, at 2:58 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote:
>
> > It's not just a numbers game. If you have the opportunity to bring
> > a child
> > into the world that has a reasonable chance to make a positive
> > contribution,
On Jul 26, 2008, at 2:58 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote:
> It's not just a numbers game. If you have the opportunity to bring
> a child
> into the world that has a reasonable chance to make a positive
> contribution,
> there are few arguments not to do so. The world doesn't just need
> fewer
> p
Jon wrote:
>
> it's wicked because it creates even more scaricities among other children
> in undeveloped countries whose parents do not have the resources to support
> and nurture.
Bulls__t. The problems in underdeveloped nations will be ameliorated when
their people become more educated. W
Jon wrote:
>
> are you suggesting that it is rational to have more enlightened children
Yes.
> to balance those who are raised by cults and jihadists, etc.?
I don't know about balancing anything, but I do believe that the more
"enlightened" people, the better off we'll all be.
> the mormo
On Jul 26, 2008, at 2:38 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
>>> What's wicked about bringing children into the
>> world that you have the
>> resources to support and nurture?
>> Doug
>
> it's wicked because it creates even more scaricities among other
> children in undeveloped countries whose parents do
Jon wrote:
>
> "And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply,
> and replenish the earth, and subdue it." surely you don't believe that gawd
> created man to have dominion over every living thing that moves on the
> earth?
>
> it is not a sacrifice, doug, it is a duty to
Anyone else notice the irony in the subject line? :)
Julia
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