Re: Intellectual output from the Arab World
At 07:50 06-10-2002 +0200, Ilana Halupovich wrote: America in general is, after all, very pro-Israel, has a large Jewish community, and is in fact the only friend Israel has in the world. I understand that you don't watch Russian TV. G You understand correctly. We do not get Russian TV here. But even if we would, the few words of Russian I know are not enough to understand it... :-) So, when did Russia become good friends with Israel? I know many Russians have friends and relatives in Israel, but AFAIK the country itself is not exactly in bed with the Israeli regime. Jeroen Keeper of the Great Brin-L Archive van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Intellectual output from the Arab World
At 08:01 06-10-2002 +0200, Ilana Halupovich wrote: It's Jeroen displays opinions that are seemingly prejudiced against Israel usually that is. That is still not really correct, but at least it is a little bit less wrong that Jeroen displays opinions that are seemingly prejudiced against Jews. Sholom Aleichem, Ilana. :-) (Um, hope I got that last sentence right and not accidentally insulted you...) :-) Jeroen Speaker of Foreign Languages van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Definitiions (was Intellectual output from the Arab World)
J. van Baardwijk wrote: At 23:31 05-10-2002 +1000, Ray Ludenia wrote about me: Not ONCE has he ever admitted to being wrong about ANYTHING. Do you know what the problem is with that blanket statement? I need to find only *one* message in which I admit to being wrong, in order to prove your statement false. I tried to make it easy for you :-) And guess what -- I found that message... GRIN Congratulations! Bit like finding the needle in the haystack??? BIG GRIN At 19:02 06-09-2002 +0200, I wrote: To make it entirely correct, should that not be thousands of billions of *grams*? You are twice wrong. The SI unit is _kilogram_ not gram. And thousands of kilograms = billions of grams I stand corrected on the first part, but not on the second. Even here, only a partial backdown! What I am referring to is that I see very little evidence in protracted arguments that you are willing to admit the possibility that you are perhaps even a little bit in the wrong. You determinedly cling to your views (which is certainly your right), regardless of other's arguments or evidence. In that sense, it is preferable that we don't waste your time (and other list-member's time) by interminable exchanges that achieve nothing and are not even entertaining. I think it is preferable just to let you win and get on with more productive discussions. Classic example of this was Erik's attempt at provocation with his fuck-posts. Please use your talents to contribute positively in the way that you can. Regards, Ray. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Definitiions (was Intellectual output from the Arab World)
At 19:57 06-10-2002 +1000, Ray Ludenia wrote: And guess what -- I found that message... GRIN Congratulations! Bit like finding the needle in the haystack??? BIG GRIN Then it was either a small haystack or a big needle. It only took me three minutes to find it. GRIN To make it entirely correct, should that not be thousands of billions of *grams*? You are twice wrong. The SI unit is _kilogram_ not gram. And thousands of kilograms = billions of grams I stand corrected on the first part, but not on the second. Even here, only a partial backdown! Of course! I was wrong about the SI unit, but not about the equation. Surely you do not expect me to say I am wrong when I am in fact right? :-) Jeroen And now, back to studying van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 02:52:15AM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: The U.S. military has dropped leaflets (...) Are USA strategists aware that the more arrogance the USA exhibits, the stronger will be the Iraqi people's support for Saddam? Are you saying that dropping leaflets saying that if they fire on US planes, they will be fired upon, is arrongant? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
Erik Reuter wrote: Are USA strategists aware that the more arrogance the USA exhibits, the stronger will be the Iraqi people's support for Saddam? Are you saying that dropping leaflets saying that if they fire on US planes, they will be fired upon, is arrongant? Well, if I were an Iraqi and came across leaflets saying that..'arrogance' would be one of the nicer words to cross my mind. I also find it amazing that 9/11 doesn't seem to have made the American strategists aware of the emotions that are aroused when one's country is attacked or threatened. :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 08:27:58PM +0530, Ritu Ko wrote: Erik Reuter wrote: Are USA strategists aware that the more arrogance the USA exhibits, the stronger will be the Iraqi people's support for Saddam? Are you saying that dropping leaflets saying that if they fire on US planes, they will be fired upon, is arrongant? Well, if I were an Iraqi and came across leaflets saying that..'arrogance' would be one of the nicer words to cross my mind. Really? Would you care to explain? Remember, Iraq lost a war and agreed to a treaty. Iraq has been firing on US planes, and rather than bombing their cities, the US drops leaflets warning that they will return fire on military targets that fire upon them. What would you suggest? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
science Vs religion
http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,361521,00.html Jesus and the FDA BY KAREN TUMULTY Saturday, Oct. 05, 2002 A quiet battle is raging over the Bush Administration's plan to appoint a scantily credentialed doctor, whose writings include a book titled As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now, to head an influential Food and Drug Administration (FDA) panel on women's health policy. Sources tell Time that the agency's choice for the advisory panel is Dr. W. David Hager, an obstetrician-gynecologist who also wrote, with his wife Linda, Stress and the Woman's Body, which puts an emphasis on the restorative power of Jesus Christ in one's life and recommends specific Scripture readings and prayers for such ailments as headaches and premenstrual syndrome. Though his resume describes Hager as a University of Kentucky professor, a university official says Hager's appointment is part time and voluntary and involves working with interns at Lexington's Central Baptist Hospital, not the university itself. In his private practice, two sources familiar with it say, Hager refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women. Hager did not return several calls for comment. FDA advisory panels often have near-final say over crucial health questions. If Hager becomes chairman of the 11-member Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee, he will lead its study of hormone-replacement therapy for menopausal women, one of the biggest controversies in health care. Some conservatives are trying to use doubts about such therapy to discredit the use of birth-control pills, which contain similar compounds. The panel also made the key recommendation in 1996 that led to approval of the abortion pill, RU-486a decision that abortion foes are still fighting. Hager assisted the Christian Medical Association last August in a citizens' petition calling upon the FDA to reverse itself on RU-486, saying it has endangered the lives and health of women. Hager was chosen for the post by FDA senior associate commissioner Linda Arey Skladany, a former drug-industry lobbyist with longstanding ties to the Bush family. Skladany rejected at least two nominees proposed by FDA staff members: Donald R. Mattison, former dean of the University of Pittsburgh School of Public Health, and Michael F. Greene, director of maternal- fetal medicine at Massachusetts General Hospital. Despite pressure from inside the FDA to make the appointment temporary, sources say, Skladany has insisted that Hager get a full four-year term. FDA spokesman Bill Pierce called Hager well qualified. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
Erik Reuter wrote: Well, if I were an Iraqi and came across leaflets saying that..'arrogance' would be one of the nicer words to cross my mind. Really? Would you care to explain? Certainly. :) Consider the present conditions, the USA's drive to remove Saddam. Irrespective of whether the Iraqi people want him removed or not. Irrespective of whether the UN or the rest of the world agrees or not. The rejection by the US of the Oct.1 Iraqi offer to allow unlimited access under previous UN resolutions. Bush's Sept 12 speech where he 'invites' the UN to join US in toppling over Saddam's government. The Oct. 2 resolution introduced in the Congress where 'regime change' is the reason given to authorise the President to declare war on Iraq. Well, consider all that, and consider being an Iraqi soldier picking up leaflets that state what these do. I don't know about you, but I still think that 'arrogance' would be a mild word to use. People cannot be pushed beyond a certain point, y'know. Psychological warfare or no psychological warfare. Remember, Iraq lost a war and agreed to a treaty. Yes, I remember. I also remember the Treaty of Versailles and the everlasting peace *that* brought to Europe. Iraq has been firing on US planes, and rather than bombing their cities, the US drops leaflets warning that they will return fire on military targets that fire upon them. What would you suggest? Well, I'd suggest that the US govt. calms down a bit. Accepts the Oct. 1 offer of Iraq. Let the UN SC decide what it wants to do. Take it from there, really. And while the US holds it patience, I'd also suggest that it stops saying thing like 'You could be next!'. I have a feeling that every single Iraqi already know that. :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 09:41:51PM +0530, Ritu Ko wrote: Well, I'd suggest that the US govt. calms down a bit. It seems fairly calm to me. I'd like to see a little more charisma and charm from Bush in working with other nations, but I have to say that the response from other nations is quite disappointing. Accepts the Oct. 1 offer of Iraq. Iraq has no grounds and no credibility to make any offer. Iraq was supposed to disclose all their WoMD, and they did not. When evidence was found to the contrary, they put barriers in the way of the inspectors. They did this repeatedly. Now you think they should be trusted? Wow, would you like to buy a bridge? And how is it that you know what the Iraqis want? I don't know, but I'd bet that being ruled by Saddam really sucks. Do you have evidence to the contrary? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] You think Saddam and BJP are comparable??? Have you any conception of how Saddam has ruled Iraq? Both have used chemical weapon on their 'native' populations. I will get to it. Sometime. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
At 13:33 06-10-2002 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote: Surely you can see the difference between a fascist dictator and a and a democractically elected government? Why should the former be protected? Especially when the former has repeatedly disobeyed instructions of the United Nations? Well, other countries have disobeyed instructions from the UN, and at least one of them enjoys protection by the United States, so disobeying UN instructions is hardly a valid reason for an invasion. Maybe the other countries need to do their part rather than watching idly while the US shoulders the burden of enforcing UN agreements The UN Security Council has not yet decided to use military force against Iraq, so the US is not shouldering the burden. Further, the US has already announced it will attack Iraq even if the UNSC votes against it, so if that happens the US has no right to complain about shouldering the burden. And finally, I think the US would only have a right to complain about shouldering the burden if it had been consistent in demanding military action against countries that disobey UN instructions. No. I have never talked to an Iraqi, ever. So I have no evidence to the contrary. I even agree with you that being ruled by Saddam *must* suck. However, I question your assumption that they'd be glad of any American action to 'topple the regime'. That, of course, is an emotional response, not a logical one. In fact, it is quite illogical. Why is it illogical? The previous time the US attacked Iraq, it left the country in ruins. I doubt the population has forgotten about that yet. They have every reason to expect that the infrastructure they rebuilt after the war will once again be destroyed if and when the US attacks again. You should also not forget that the Iraqi population has been told for decades how evil the US is. Even if they hate Saddam Hussein, those anti-American sentiments will not miraculously disappear when a new, pro-US regime is installed. Jeroen And now, back to studying van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Laden
http://www.observer.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,805618,00.html ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
This Message Is For Male Brinellers Only
ATTENTION: This message is for MALE Brinellers only. All FEMALE members should close this message IMMEDIATELY!!! Housewife seeking appreciation quits housework. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/10/05/wife.strike.ap/index.html Guys, if our female significant others find out about this, we are in dp trouble... GRIN Jeroen And now, back to studying van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
The Fool wrote: Both have used chemical weapon on their 'native' populations. I will get to it. Sometime. Oh, this I've not heard about and am interested. Could you refer some sites or sources please? Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
Dan Minette wrote: Indeed, for Americans, Europe's and its failure to respond to Hitler has been a paradigm example of what not to do for over 50 years of foreign policy. I cannot imagine you picking a worse example to use. It doesn't falsify your arguement, but it is not a good case study to make your point. Yes, I realised that. As soon as I hit 'send'. :) However my point actually was the effect of the harsh terms of that treaty on the German psyche. Had they been less humiliated, had they been left with some more resources, some face-saving options, Hitler might not have found such a fertile ground for his ideas. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
A Country In Mourning
AMSTERDAM, The Netherlands (Reuters) -- Prince Claus of the Netherlands, the husband of Queen Beatrix, died on Sunday, the government information service said. http://europe.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/10/06/netherlands.prince/index.html Jeroen no wisecrack tagline tonight van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
On Mon, Oct 07, 2002 at 01:31:02AM +0530, Ritu Ko wrote: I am not claiming that the former should be protected. But just that there are proper channels to take these actions. And that when these channels are ignored, things worsen. They don't get better. At least not for the non-Americans. As for Iraq disobeying the UN, well, now it is willing to allow inspectors. No, it is not. Iraq has allowed inspectors numerous times before, and it never really allowed them. It is a game of deception they play. At least that option has to be excercised. Dismissing it out of the hand seems a bit extreme to me. It has been exercised. Repeatedly. It does not work. It is ludicrous to call it dismissing it out of hand. How do you define doing their part? You deleted it. I suggested more aid in building something out of Afghanistan. Another example would be acting serious about enforcing the treaty made with Iraq rather than saying nice doggie to Saddam as he repeatedly makes a mockery of the treaty and the UN. chuckle Our military resources are sufficient for the task at hand. Sufficient to remove all WoMD from Iraq while minimizing civilian casualties? chuckle Yeah, right. You accept Iraq's offer not because you trust Saddam or have faith in him, but because there is a 'due process of law'. Which has been followed and defied repeatedly. You seem to think that if you keep talking politely to a thief, eventually he will change his ways. Meanwhile, he is robbing you blind. Or should be, anyway. You can not summarily decide that someone is a threat, demand that he/they surrender sovereignity, refuse all counter-offers, declare an intention to attack...and still hope to be considered reasonable. Yes, you can. It is called enforcing a broken treaty. If your children are sent to their room for punishment for misbehaving, and they sneak out the window, and you find out, do you just send them back to their room to sneak out again, and then when they sneak out the window and you see them outside, you just send them back again and they sneak out again and then Why is my questioning of your assumption illogical? Or emotional? That is not illogical. What is illogical is that if you are oppressed by an insane fascist dictator and have no means of fighting him, that you would refuse help because of pride. Your argument is therefore that the Iraqi people would foolishly continue to live in poverty, famine, and disease, being killed and oppressed by an insane despot, rather than accept outside help. They clearly can't get rid of Saddam themselves, he is too strong and conniving to be overthrown by those he is oppressing. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
Erik Reuter wrote: Are you saying that dropping leaflets saying that if they fire on US planes, they will be fired upon, is arrongant? No Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
On Sun, Oct 06, 2002 at 10:24:18PM -, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Erik Reuter wrote: Are you saying that dropping leaflets saying that if they fire on US planes, they will be fired upon, is arrongant? No How about arrogant? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: This Message Is For Male Brinellers Only
J. van Baardwijk wrote: Housewife seeking appreciation quits housework. http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/10/05/wife.strike.ap/index.html Good for her! If she cleans the house while her husband goes fishing, she should do something to call him on it. Normally cutting him off from sex would be the answer, but this might be more effective. :-) Guys, if our female significant others find out about this, we are in dp trouble... Sometimes I wonder about you, Jeroen. Your wife is the only SO on here that I know of, so aren't you the only one who get screwed by this? ;) Jim Changed your e-mail? Keep your contacts! Use this free e-mail change of address service from Return Path. Register now! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Craft 'rammed' French oil tanker
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2303363.stm The owners of a French oil tanker on fire off the coast of Yemen say they believe it was rammed by a smaller boat, before exploding into flames. Much more on site. xponent Speedboats Laden With Explosives Delenda Est Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Hey, can we can this?
From: Joe Hale [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Hey, can we can this? Date: Sun, 6 Oct 2002 20:58:20 -0400 Why can't you just kick Jeroen out of the group? It's not the civilized thing to do. To take your analogy further, would you have him executed or locked up in the real world for what he's doing? Your answer, I would assume, is no, as is mine. Despite the fact that I'm personally annoyed about the whole 'antisemite' thing, it's absolutely, positively, definitely not a reason why anyone should be _removed_ from our group. Living as a part of a civilization means that sometimes there'll be conflict, but I have to believe that a civilization which allows all voices to be heard is best. One must also accept that other people have points of view that may not make logical sense and/or be offensive to you. Also, you're probably not going to change their minds. This is the real world, after all. :-) Even though I'm not currently giving this impression, I happen to think the list's overall voice would be diminished without Jeroen, and despite butting heads with him kinda often, I do enjoy having him here. (Even if this means I mutter at the screen in frustration every once in a while.) Jon IAAMOAC _ Join the worlds largest e-mail service with MSN Hotmail. http://www.hotmail.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Definitiions (was Intellectual output from the Arab World)
OK, that's very cool. I learned something. :-) Thanks, and my apologies -- you were right! Jon From: J. van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Definitiions (was Intellectual output from the Arab World) Date: Sat, 05 Oct 2002 14:49:32 +0200 At 07:39 05-10-2002 -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: At 00:10 05-10-2002 -0500, The Fool foolishly blated: The word I believe you were looking for is 'blatted'? It means either a loud noise or the noise a sheep makes, IIRC. Been up since 2:30 -- too lazy to check the dictionary, but I'm nearly positive that 'blated' isn't an English word. At http://rhyme.lycos.com/r/rhyme.cgi?Word=blatetypeofrhyme=deforg1=sylorg2=l, the verb blate is defined as cry plaintively. At http://www.hyperdic.net/dic/u/utter.shtml, blate is given as a synonym for utter. At http://dictionary.metor.com/wnet/4585882.htm, blate is given as a synonym for bleat, which in turn means cry plaintively. At http://www.stanford.edu/group/wais/mexico_virginofguadalupetwoversions121401.html, it says: When I am accused of doing something blatant, my reaction is to look up the word. It was coined by Edmund Spencer, and comes from to blate (bellow). So, it looks like blated is an English word after all (the past tense for to blate). Jeroen And now, back to studying van Baardwijk __ Wonderful-World-of-Brin-L Website: http://www.Brin-L.com _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: SH OKs WOMD In Case Of TWAT
Rob's painful subject line Subject: SH OKs WOMD In Case Of TWAT Wow, Dude! That subject line made little explosions go off in my head while trying to decode it. So far, I have come up with his. Saddam Hussein OK's Weapons Of Mass Destruction in case of I just can't seem to make out the last words. I am sure that you didn't mean the slang term for TWAT. But I have to admit that it made me do triple take.. :-) Gary ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: SH OKs WOMD In Case Of TWAT
- Original Message - From: Gary Nunn [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 9:41 PM Subject: RE: SH OKs WOMD In Case Of TWAT Rob's painful subject line Subject: SH OKs WOMD In Case Of TWAT Wow, Dude! That subject line made little explosions go off in my head while trying to decode it. So far, I have come up with his. Saddam Hussein OK's Weapons Of Mass Destruction in case of I just can't seem to make out the last words. I am sure that you didn't mean the slang term for TWAT. But I have to admit that it made me do triple take.. :-) LOL Gary! The War Against Terrorism = TWAT The headline from the article was way way way too long and the first solution that popped into my head as a way of shortening it was... well the one I used. But the content of the article is the important thing I think! G xponent TWAT Confusion? Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hey, can we can this?
Jon Gabriel wrote: I'll think about it. I think it's smart advice anyway. :) On to more important matters: Why are you demanding prunes and raisins??!? Jon Wow, man. Maybe I got it wrong. There was this dude, on Brin-List, man. And there was this like really big, like flamewar, man. And the dude, he kept this in his sigfile for like months. It just kept going on and on, something about roof and treasons. Or was it poof and rhizomes? Wow, I'll have to go look in the archives. But last time, I went in the archives, like I got lost, and didn't get out for daze... ---Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Fw: Beatallica
- Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Culture - Brin-L Satellite List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 4:33 PM Subject: Beatallica http://www.sensoryresearch.com/~starkeff/beatallica.html Awesome !! xponent Enter Taxman Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Craft 'rammed' French oil tanker
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:25 PM Subject: Re: Craft 'rammed' French oil tanker Robert Seeberger wrote: xponent Speedboats Laden With Explosives Delenda Est Maru rob Hey, can we get a good Latinization of this? It would be more amusing for a few of us that way LOL G In that case you are probobly one of the ones I was making light of. (After a while the Delenda Est messages become humor, mainly because so damn many people use them. I see them in almost every forum these days.) xponent Belinda Est Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
Dan Minette wrote: I'm not arguing that the war reparations were not a bad idea...but that they were essentially dropped and were thus meaningless. In a sense, the difference between WWI and WWII was that the winners ran the losing country for the benefit of the losers for a number of years (with the obvious exception of East Germany). So, the lesson from WWI and WWII would seem to be win decisively and convincingly and be very magnanimous and generous in victory. Yes, as long as 'the magnanimity and generosity in victory' stays out of the realm of sheer stupidity. I mean, look at what happened in 1947/8 and '71 - India won both the wars decisively and convincinglywas stupidly magnanimous in victory. So '48 gave birth to the Kashmir problem and in '71 Bhutto declared a 1000 year jihad against India. Right after he came back from Shimla, before descending from the plane even. :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
- Original Message - From: Ritu Ko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:33 PM Subject: RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack I mean, look at what happened in 1947/8 and '71 - India won both the wars decisively and convincinglywas stupidly magnanimous in victory. So '48 gave birth to the Kashmir problem and in '71 Bhutto declared a 1000 year jihad against India. Right after he came back from Shimla, before descending from the plane even. :) Well, I won't argue against your examples, but I am thinking of a much more decisive win than that. All of Germany and Japan were under the control of the winners of WWII. Pakistan wasn't after those two wars. Indeed, I'd argue that there were more similarities to Germany after WWI and Iraq after the Gulf War than to WWII. I'm not really faulting India on this, they had constraints, like those on Israel after they won their wars, and like those on the US during the Cold War. However, they did not have the same type of total control after the war that, say, the US did in Japan after WWII. I agree, BTW, that India would have been a better ally than Pakistan for the US. Whatever the disagreements may have been from our standpoint, it was a democracy. Its my understanding that India pretty well chose the USSR as its patron and the US got Pakistan by default. Do you know differently? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:46 PM Subject: Re: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack - Original Message - From: Ritu Ko [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 06, 2002 10:24 PM Subject: RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack If that outside help is coming from Uncle Sam, I'd say that my concerns are reasonably valid. You know, I'd just love to see Ritu and Gautam get into a debate on this. (I think I told you, Ritu, that Gautam is a second generation American who still has lotsa family back in India.) He has the exact opposite viewpoint on this. But, alas, Gautam is so busy now that he makes me look like I lost all my customers. :-) I miss Gautam. I dont always agree with him but he is a damn good writer and I enjoy reading people who are informative and are able to express themselves clearly in the way he does. xponent Write Us Soon Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The article Julia mentioned
Actually, if you're a woman, there are *much* suckier rulers to live under. (Or die under.) Saudi Arabia, for a biggie. Iraqi women enjoy greater freedoms than women in almost all other Mideast countries. So if I were a woman in Iraq and knew that, sure it would suck, but many other options would suck a lot worse. Julia trying to remember which columnist it was that wrote the column that brought this to her attention, so she could post a non-sucky link ... We decided that this was the article: Iraq's Little Secret October 1, 2002 By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF BAGHDAD, Iraq - The White House is right that Iraq is by far the most repressive country in the entire Middle East - but that's true only if you're a man. To see how many Arab countries are in some ways even more repressive to women, consider how an invasion might play out. If American ground troops are allowed to storm across the desert from Saudi Arabia into Iraq, then American servicewomen will theoretically not be able to drive vehicles as long as they are in Saudi Arabia and will be advised to wear an abaya over their heads. As soon as they cross the border into enemy Iraq, they'll feel as if they are entering the free world: they can legally drive, uncover their heads, and even call men idiots. Iraqi women routinely boss men and serve in non-combat positions in the army. Indeed, if Iraq attacks us with smallpox, we'll have a woman to thank: Dr. Rihab Rashida Taha, the head of Iraq's biological warfare program, who is also known to weapons inspectors as Dr. Germ. A man can stop a woman on the street in Baghdad and ask for directions without causing a scandal. Men and women can pray at the mosque together, go to restaurants together, swim together, court together or quarrel together. Girls compete in after-school sports almost as often as boys, and Iraqi television broadcasts women's sports as well as men's. No one thinks that sports are just for men, said Nadia Yasser, the captain of the Iraqi national women's soccer team. It's true that my mother was a bit concerned at first when I took up soccer, but I insisted, and so she accepted it and just started praying for me. The point is not to be soft on Saddam Hussein, whose rash wars and policies have killed hundreds of thousands of women as well as men. Iraqi women would be much better off with Saddam gone, and in any case the relative equality of women in Iraq has little to do with his leadership. Iraq has been civilized more than twice as long as Britain, after all (it was old when Babylon arose), and Iraq got its first woman doctor back in 1922. Then the Iran-Iraq war boosted equality by sending men to the front lines and forced women to fill in as factory workers, bus drivers and government officials. Still, we shouldn't demonize all of Iraq - just its demon of a ruler - and it's worth pondering this contrast between an enemy that empowers women and allies that repress them. This gap should shame us as well as these allies, reminding us to use our political capital to nudge Arab countries to respect the human rights not just of Kurds or Shiites, but also of women. More broadly, in a region where women are treated as doormats, Iraq offers an example of how an Arab country can adhere to Islam and yet provide women with opportunities. I look at women in Saudi Arabia, and I feel sorry for them, said Thuha Farook, a young woman doctor in Basra. They can't learn. They can't improve themselves. At the Basra Maternity and Pediatric Teaching Hospital, 25 of the 26 students in ob-gyn are women. Across town, 54 percent of Basra University's students are female. Iraqi women who work typically get six months' maternity leave at full pay and another six months at half pay. Subsidized day care is usually available at the workplace. Female circumcision, still common in American allies like Egypt and Nigeria, is absent in Iraq. To be sure, aside from brutal political repression that is gender-blind, Iraqi women also endure groping on crowded buses and an occasional honor killing, in which a man kills a daughter or sister for being unchaste. Honor killings typically result in a six-month prison sentence in Iraq; they sometimes go completely unpunished in other countries. A glance around any Baghdad street also demonstrates that Iraq doesn't have hang-ups about the female body that neighboring countries do. A man can travel widely in the Arab world and know about women's legs only by hearsay, but careful reporting in Iraq confirms that Arab women do have knees: In Baghdad I saw women volleyball players who felt uninhibited enough to roll up their sweats. So as we invade Iraq for its barbaric and repressive ways, our allies in the Muslim world should feel deeply embarrassed that a rogue state offers women more equality than they do.
Re: Hey, can we can this?
In a message dated 10/6/2002 7:49:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: ---David Hobby -- Demanding prunes and raisins! Today the pits, tomorrow the wrinkles. Sunsweet marches on. -- Stan Freberg I think they come in boxes and not cans William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
Dan Minette wrote: Well, I won't argue against your examples, but I am thinking of a much more decisive win than that. All of Germany and Japan were under the control of the winners of WWII. Pakistan wasn't after those two wars. No, Pakistan was not completely under Indian control but they were in a precarious enough position anyway. In 1948, the Indian army had cut them off from the sea and was kilometers away from Lahore when Nehru ordered them back. In 1971, Pakistan had lost control over half of its territory, we had 90,000 POWs...our position was reasonably strong in both these instances. I'm not really faulting India on this, they had constraints, Yup. We sure did. In 1948, our biggest constraint was that idiot of a Prime Minister, Nehru. I am still unable to fathom the logic by which he unilaterally surrendered all the conquered original Pakistani territory to Pakistan, without even demanding a reciprocity from Pakistan. Bah! Now, not that it would have made any difference, but I think the demand for our original territory should have at least be presented as a condition for the release of the POWs. Nope. For some reason, Indira chose to trust Bhutto, the tragi-comic Shimla agreement and did just what her father did. Yay. I agree, BTW, that India would have been a better ally than Pakistan for the US. Whatever the disagreements may have been from our standpoint, it was a democracy. Its my understanding that India pretty well chose the USSR as its patron and the US got Pakistan by default. Do you know differently? Yes. :) India was one of the founding members of the now-defunct NAM. We really didn't wish to embroiled in the mess...we had messes of our own to clear up. That didn't sit too well with the US government at that time. USSR was *evil*, y'see and anybody who wanted to sit out the fight has suspicious ulterior motives. But then, Kenndy came to power. Things improved. Especially after the US aid in 1962. But then, Nehru had his own shortcomings [it might not be wise to get me started on this particular topic - that is a fair warning :)] - he rebuffed the US President quite boorishly when the two met. I think that had a lot to do with Kennedy's charisma and Nehru's impending old age. He also found Socialism more attractive than Capitalism [have I mentioned that he as an idiot?]...so, any improvements that might have resulted just didn' go too far, simply because Nehru was not too interested. Then things got really bad in the 70s. The East Pakistani refugee problem started. India couldn't really cope with it economically. Action was needed and India was ready to take the action. Indira Gandhi undertook a world tour to garner international support. She was bluntly informed by Nixon that any Indian action on the isue would invariably meet with the US disapproval and that the US *would* support the Pakistani government, to the extent of military aid. Then she went to USSR, signd a mutual co-operation and protection pact with the USSR, just specific to this one issue, only if the Americans got involved. So when the 7th fleet was launched, the Russians dispatched theirs. But Indians never really aligned themselves with the USSR. We signed issue-specific treaties and pacts with different countries, depending on our needs and concerns. USSR was one of these countries, USA was another. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: U.S. drops leaflets warning Iraq of counterattack
Dan M. wrote: If that outside help is coming from Uncle Sam, I'd say that my concerns are reasonably valid. You know, I'd just love to see Ritu and Gautam get into a debate on this. chuckle I have to say I agree. But like you siad, he is busy. :) (I think I told you, Ritu, that Gautam is a second generation American who still has lotsa family back in India.) I think you told me, Dan. The reason I'm not sure is that the first time I read his name I knew that he is of an Indian descent. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
