subject:"Sore losers"

Jon Louis Mann wrote:   nationalism is an aberration that is found in many 
countries, and to be abhorred.  it is especially repugnant in nations where 
their citizens actually believe they are better than other nations 

Nationalism is not an aberrantion -- it is one of the human constants.  Almost 
every tribal group ever examined had a word for themselves that basically meant 
People or true people and some equivalent to the Greek workd barbarian 
which meant not us.  If you think about it in evolutionary terms, it makes 
perfect sense.  99% of our evolutionary history was spent in small, isloated 
bands, as hunter-gatherers, in a world where humans were not the dominant 
species.  Danger was everywhere.  Survival of the individual depended on 
suvirival of the group.  Anything from outside the groups was suspect, 
dangerous, to be feared.  Chimpanzees show a lot of the same behaviors, even 
patrolling the boundaries of their terriortories, attacking the members of 
other groups, and, as Jane Goodall pointed out, having all out wars between 
groups.  So when you point to one country, or one group, or one nationality, or 
whatever, and say They're the nationalistic ones, they're the evil ones
 , they're the aberration, you're really just engaging in the same behavior 
you calim to be derriding:  Us-and-them.  Even more importantly, you are 
avoiding responsibility for something that is really a common trait we all 
share by projecting it on them.  We all have these tendencies, and the only 
answer to them is reason, not emotion and name calling and the generation of 
more fear and hate.  As Dr. Brin points out, the kinds of open, responsive 
systems that we have developed in the past few centuries, are the only antidote 
we know to the universal condition of tyrrany, exploitation, war and tribalism. 
 And we have to use our reason to set up these systems despire the fact that it 
goes against millions of years of evolutionary history (just like I have to use 
my reason not to gorge myself on high-fat foods at every possibility, even 
though my genes tell me it has survivial value -- for my distant ancestors it 
did, and the ones who stocked up on fat and calories when 
 they could surivived and passed the craving on to me -- it today's world, 
though, it will kill me) ...

Judging from some of the recent discussion on this list, maybe we should all go 
back and read some of the stuff Dr. Brin has written about the addictive 
qualities of self-righteous indignation?

Olin
  - Original Message - 
  From: Pat Mathewsmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 6:21 AM
  Subject: RE: Sore losers



  Nationalism is just another step in the ladder of Me and Not-Me, Family 
and Not-Family, Tribe and Not-Tribe.And what is the next step after 
nationalism? Judging from history and what I see around me, something very 
similar to Citizen and Not-Citizen. A Citizen being defined as anyone of any 
national or racial origin or original condition who is willing to learn the 
language, obey the laws, and behave according to the values of the - let's be 
truthful here - Empire.http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/

   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 
brin-l@mccmedia.commailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Sore losers 
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 23:28:15 -0700  On Aug 27, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Jon Louis 
Mann wrote:   nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, 
and tobe abhorred.  it is especially repugnant in nations where their   
 citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (likesome 
french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.).  I think that nationalism 
is not an aberration at all. I would be   willing to guess that it is a larger 
form of xenophobia, which I would   be further willing to guess conferred 
evolutionary advantages: kill   off the other guys and your genes live on. The 
other guys can be other   guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going 
to be the one   whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with 
those   guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth.  We e
 ven had a racist dog when I was a kid. He was raised by
my family   of white people in a neighborhood of mostly white people, so 
when   black kids from the projects walked by, who were different, he went  
 nuts. Then again, dogs are remarkable at picking up subtle clues in   the 
behavior of their human companions, and my dad was quite a racist.   The dog 
may have known that black people were bad because he saw   his master 
tense up when they were around.  Different is Dangerous Maru  Dave  
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Dogs (was: Sore Losers)

We even had a racist dog when I was a kid. He was raised by my family
of white people in a neighborhood of mostly white people, so when
black kids from the projects walked by, who were different, he went
nuts. Then again, dogs are remarkable at picking up subtle clues in
the behavior of their human companions, and my dad was quite a racist.
The dog may have known that black people were bad because he saw
his master tense up when they were around.

I have a dog who was basically feral the first year of her life, living on the
streets, and even though she's quite civilized now, she hates homeless people.
This dog who loves all human beings, used to growl and get tense whenever she
saw someone who was obvioulsy homeless (or looked like they were). She's
gotten better now, but she still is obviously uncomfortable with them. Most of
the homeless people with dogs that I know treat them very well, often taking
better care of the dog than of themselves, but I can only guess what
experiences Lulubelle (our dog) had to make her so leary of homeless people

Olin
- Original Message -
From: Dave Landmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2008 11:28 PM
Subject: Re: Sore losers

On Aug 27, 2008, at 1:25 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and to
be abhorred. it is especially repugnant in nations where their
citizens actually believe they are better than other nations (like
some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens, etc.).

I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I would be
willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia, which I would
be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary advantages: kill
off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys can be other
guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to be the one
whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell with those
guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth.

Different is Dangerous Maru

Dave

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Sore Losers

nationalism is an aberration that is found in many
 countries, and to  
be abhorred.  it is especially repugnant in nations
 where their  
citizens actually believe they are better than other
 nations (like  
some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens,
 etc.).
 jon


   I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I
 would be  
   willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia,
 which I would  
   be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary
 advantages: kill  
   off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys
 can be other  
   guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to
 be the one  
   whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell
 with those  
   guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth.
   Dave

or as Dr. Brin would say, The Dogma of the Other...
Jon


  
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Sore Losers

nationalism is an aberration that is found in many
 countries, and to  
be abhorred.  it is especially repugnant in nations
 where their  
citizens actually believe they are better than other
 nations (like  
some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens,
 etc.).
 jon


   I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I
 would be  
   willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia,
 which I would  
   be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary
 advantages: kill  
   off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys
 can be other  
   guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to
 be the one  
   whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell
 with those  
   guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth.
   Dave

or as Dr. Brin would say, The Dogma of the Other...
Jon


  
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Sore Losers

nationalism is an aberration that is found in many
 countries, and to  
be abhorred.  it is especially repugnant in nations
 where their  
citizens actually believe they are better than other
 nations (like  
some french, saudi, israeli, japanese citizens,
 etc.).
 jon


   I think that nationalism is not an aberration at all. I
 would be  
   willing to guess that it is a larger form of xenophobia,
 which I would  
   be further willing to guess conferred evolutionary
 advantages: kill  
   off the other guys and your genes live on. The other guys
 can be other  
   guys in the tribe (to hell with you guys, I am going to
 be the one  
   whose genes live on in this tribe), other tribes (to hell
 with those  
   guys, we are going to be the ones...) and so forth.
   Dave

or as Dr. Brin would say, The Dogma of the Other...
Jon


  
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Sore losers

 Jon Louis Mann wrote:
 nationalism is an aberration 
 found in many countries, and to be
 abhorred.  it is especially repugnant 
 in nations where their citizens actually 
 believe they are better than other nations...

 Nationalism is not an aberration -- it is one of the human
 constants.  Almost every tribal group ever examined had a
 word for themselves that basically meant People
 or true people and some equivalent to the Greek
 word barbarian which meant not us. 
 If you think about it in evolutionary terms, it makes
 perfect sense.  99% of our evolutionary history was spent in
 small, isloated bands, as hunter-gatherers, in a world where
 humans were not the dominant species.  Danger was
 everywhere.  Survival of the individual depended on
 suvirival of the group.  Anything from outside the groups
 was suspect, dangerous, to be feared.  Chimpanzees show a
 lot of the same behaviors, even patrolling the boundaries of
 their terriortories, attacking the members of other groups,
 and, as Jane Goodall pointed out, having all out wars
 between groups.  So when you point to one country, or one
 group, or one nationality, or whatever, and say
 They're the nationalistic ones,
 they're the evil ones,
 they're the aberration, you're
 really just engaging in the same behavior you claim to be
 derriding:  Us-and-them.  Even more importantly,
 you are avoiding responsibility for something that is 
 a common trait we all share by projecting it on
 them.  We all have these tendencies, and the
 only answer to them is reason, not emotion, name calling
 and the generation of more fear and hate.  As Dr. Brin
 points out, the kinds of open, responsive systems that we
 have developed in the past few centuries, are the only
 antidote we know to the universal condition of tyrrany,
 exploitation, war and tribalism.  And we have to use our
 reason to set up these systems despire the fact that it goes
 against millions of years of evolutionary history (just like
 I have to use my reason not to gorge myself on high-fat
 foods at every possibility, even though my genes tell me it
 has survivial value -- for my distant ancestors it did, and
 the ones who stocked up on fat and calories when 
  they could surivived and passed the craving on to me -- it
 today's world, though, it will kill me) ... 
 Judging from some of the recent discussion on this list,
 maybe we should all go back and read some of the stuff Dr.
 Brin has written about the addictive qualities of
 self-righteous indignation? 
 Olin

aren't you being self righteous about not being self righteous, olin?  if 
intolerance of intolerance is being self righteous, then i pleasd guilty, too.
jon


  
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Re: Sore losers

aren't you being self righteous about not being self righteous, olin?  if 
intolerance of intolerance is being self righteous, then i pleasd guilty, too.
jon

of course I'm being self-righteous -- notice that I was very careful to use 
inclusive language throughout what I wrote, even noting that we should all go 
back and read Dr. Brin's article.  I'm one of the worst -- only in the last 
half-decade or so of my life have I learned to (usually) avoid taking a verbal 
sledgehammer to anyone I disagree with.  Socrates said that if he was the 
wiesest man in Athens, it was only because he knew that he didn't know 
anything.   None of us is going to eliminate these tendencies (short of genetic 
modification). I'd bet that even the Dalia Llama (if you don't like Buddhists 
please insert the religious or secular saint of your choice) would admit that 
he hasn't elmintated those traits.   Its like a computer that goes back to its 
default settings every time you turn it off.  The best we can do is try to 
always be aware of it and allow for it -- and we won't even succeed at that a 
lot of the time, which is why feedback, mutual criticism and transpa
 rency are so important.  And we have to set these systems up -- both in the 
public sector and our own lives -- during the times when we're relatively sane, 
because once we're into our self-righteousness and our indignation and all that 
other stuff, we're not going to want to be corrected.  Just look around the 
world today, at all the groups pointing weapons (physical and intellectual) at 
each other, and all the damage we're doing to the world because we're sure that 
we're right and we're most imporant -- and its not just one country or one 
political party, although I'll admit some are worse than others. I believe it's 
the single most imporatant issue we face.  We either deal with it -- we either 
adapt to the new conditions our species faces -- or we die.

Olin

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jon Louis Mannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com 
  Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 1:21 PM
  Subject: Sore losers


   Jon Louis Mann wrote:
   nationalism is an aberration 
   found in many countries, and to be
   abhorred.  it is especially repugnant 
   in nations where their citizens actually 
   believe they are better than other nations...

   Nationalism is not an aberration -- it is one of the human
   constants.  Almost every tribal group ever examined had a
   word for themselves that basically meant People
   or true people and some equivalent to the Greek
   word barbarian which meant not us. 
   If you think about it in evolutionary terms, it makes
   perfect sense.  99% of our evolutionary history was spent in
   small, isloated bands, as hunter-gatherers, in a world where
   humans were not the dominant species.  Danger was
   everywhere.  Survival of the individual depended on
   suvirival of the group.  Anything from outside the groups
   was suspect, dangerous, to be feared.  Chimpanzees show a
   lot of the same behaviors, even patrolling the boundaries of
   their terriortories, attacking the members of other groups,
   and, as Jane Goodall pointed out, having all out wars
   between groups.  So when you point to one country, or one
   group, or one nationality, or whatever, and say
   They're the nationalistic ones,
   they're the evil ones,
   they're the aberration, you're
   really just engaging in the same behavior you claim to be
   derriding:  Us-and-them.  Even more importantly,
   you are avoiding responsibility for something that is 
   a common trait we all share by projecting it on
   them.  We all have these tendencies, and the
   only answer to them is reason, not emotion, name calling
   and the generation of more fear and hate.  As Dr. Brin
   points out, the kinds of open, responsive systems that we
   have developed in the past few centuries, are the only
   antidote we know to the universal condition of tyrrany,
   exploitation, war and tribalism.  And we have to use our
   reason to set up these systems despire the fact that it goes
   against millions of years of evolutionary history (just like
   I have to use my reason not to gorge myself on high-fat
   foods at every possibility, even though my genes tell me it
   has survivial value -- for my distant ancestors it did, and
   the ones who stocked up on fat and calories when 
they could surivived and passed the craving on to me -- it
   today's world, though, it will kill me) ... 
   Judging from some of the recent discussion on this list,
   maybe we should all go back and read some of the stuff Dr.
   Brin has written about the addictive qualities of
   self-righteous indignation? 
   Olin

  aren't you being self righteous about not being self righteous, olin?  if 
intolerance of intolerance is being self righteous, then i pleasd guilty, too.
  jon

Sore losers

 of course I'm being self-righteous -- notice that I was
 very careful to use inclusive language throughout what I
 wrote, even noting that we should all go back and read Dr.
 Brin's article.  I'm one of the worst -- only in the
 last half-decade or so of my life have I learned to
 (usually) avoid taking a verbal sledgehammer to anyone I
 disagree with.  Socrates said that if he was the wiesest man
 in Athens, it was only because he knew that he didn't
 know anything.   None of us is going to eliminate these
 tendencies (short of genetic modification). I'd bet that
 even the Dalia Llama (if you don't like Buddhists please
 insert the religious or secular saint of your choice) would
 admit that he hasn't elmintated those traits.   Its like
 a computer that goes back to its default settings every time
 you turn it off.  The best we can do is try to always be
 aware of it and allow for it -- and we won't even
 succeed at that a lot of the time, which is why feedback,
 mutual criticism and transpa
  rency are so important.  And we have to set these systems
 up -- both in the public sector and our own lives -- during
 the times when we're relatively sane, because once
 we're into our self-righteousness and our indignation
 and all that other stuff, we're not going to want to be
 corrected.  Just look around the world today, at all the
 groups pointing weapons (physical and intellectual) at each
 other, and all the damage we're doing to the world
 because we're sure that we're right and we're
 most imporant -- and its not just one country or one
 political party, although I'll admit some are worse than
 others. I believe it's the single most imporatant issue
 we face.  We either deal with it -- we either adapt to the
 new conditions our species faces -- or we die.
 Olin

I don't believe i was being sanctimonious, olin,  by saying that nationalism is 
abhorrent.  i was simply stating my opinion.  i will maintain that the 
didactic, righteous, dogmatists tend to come from the emotional right wing 
religious fanatics (many of whom believe in creationism and reject global 
warming) rather than the more rational leftist secular progressive, pragmatists.
jon


  
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Re: Sore losers

I don't believe i was being sanctimonious, olin, by saying that nationalism
is abhorrent. i was simply stating my opinion. i will maintain that the
didactic, righteous, dogmatists tend to come from the emotional right wing
religious fanatics (many of whom believe in creationism and reject global
warming) rather than the more rational leftist secular progressive,
pragmatists.
jon

at the presnet moment, I agree with you. But the history of the left has more
than its share of dogmatism, irrationality, and craziness. Try suggesting on
most college campus that things like, say, the relative aptitudes of men and
women in different fields in an empiracal question and should be studied
scientifically. You will be shouted down by leftist, progressive feminists.
The response will be just as emotional and non-rational. There's a strong
ant-sciene bias in modern American liberalism, resistance to ideas about the
inheritance of temerpment or personality, the primacy of biology over culture,
etc. etc. The right has just been more blantant, more vocal and more ludicrous
in their attacks on science, but they don't have a monopoly on it.

Olin
- Original Message -
From: Jon Louis Mannmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Friday, August 29, 2008 2:58 PM
Subject: Sore losers

of course I'm being self-righteous -- notice that I was
very careful to use inclusive language throughout what I
wrote, even noting that we should all go back and read Dr.
Brin's article. I'm one of the worst -- only in the
last half-decade or so of my life have I learned to
(usually) avoid taking a verbal sledgehammer to anyone I
disagree with. Socrates said that if he was the wiesest man
in Athens, it was only because he knew that he didn't
know anything. None of us is going to eliminate these
tendencies (short of genetic modification). I'd bet that
even the Dalia Llama (if you don't like Buddhists please
insert the religious or secular saint of your choice) would
admit that he hasn't elmintated those traits. Its like
a computer that goes back to its default settings every time
you turn it off. The best we can do is try to always be
aware of it and allow for it -- and we won't even
succeed at that a lot of the time, which is why feedback,
mutual criticism and transpa
rency are so important. And we have to set these systems
up -- both in the public sector and our own lives -- during
the times when we're relatively sane, because once
we're into our self-righteousness and our indignation
and all that other stuff, we're not going to want to be
corrected. Just look around the world today, at all the
groups pointing weapons (physical and intellectual) at each
other, and all the damage we're doing to the world
because we're sure that we're right and we're
most imporant -- and its not just one country or one
political party, although I'll admit some are worse than
others. I believe it's the single most imporatant issue
we face. We either deal with it -- we either adapt to the
new conditions our species faces -- or we die.
Olin

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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-28 Thread Charlie Bell


On 28/08/2008, at 6:36 AM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 i have to agree that rule britannia were less brutal than most of  
 the other european colonists.

Really? I'm sure Native Americans, original Australians (especially in  
Tasmania where they were wiped out), the fuzzywuzzies who were made  
to build railways in Africa and so on would disagree with that.  
Britain has just as shameful a past in slavery and extermination as  
the French, Dutch, Belgians, Portugese... Maybe more.

Charlie.


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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-28 Thread Charlie Bell


On 28/08/2008, at 1:53 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote:

 Charlie wrote:


 I could be wrong, but doesn't the rule have something to do with the
 adverse
 effect of the extreme amount of stress on a young, developing body?
 If the
 rule was arbitrary, why don't they have it for other sports?

 They do. Divers, 14. Fencers, 17. And so on.

 That's kinda what I meant.  Its not 16 straight across the board.

Ah, I get you. Yes, it's not arbitrary as different sports set limits  
based on medical advice and risk assessments for their own sports.  
It's the same reason U16 footballer don't play 90mins, they have  
shorter matches.

Charlie.
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-28 Thread Ronn! Blankenship

At 11:06 PM Wednesday 8/27/2008, Doug Pensinger wrote:
Ronn! wrote:
 
 
  What do you do when several times each year in your town kids get
  shot dead in the park, walking down the street, standing on the
  balcony outside their apartment door, or when a bullet comes through
  the window or wall (all of them being collateral damage rather than
  the target of whatever gang or gangs are doing the shooting)?
 

Why that's obvious, you arm the kids!

Doug



No, you implement a curfew where if the kids aren't home by 9pm (11 
Fri  Sat) their parents have to pay $500 for the first offense.


. . . ronn!  :)



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Portuguese expansion and Religion is Evil [was: Sore losers]

2008-08-28 Thread Alberto Monteiro

Charlie Bell wrote:
 
 Really? I'm sure Native Americans, original Australians (especially 
 in  Tasmania where they were wiped out), the fuzzywuzzies who were 
 made  to build railways in Africa and so on would disagree with 
 that.  Britain has just as shameful a past in slavery and 
 extermination as  the French, Dutch, Belgians, Portugese... Maybe more.
 
I think we must separate what was deliberate extermination,
accidental extermination and assimilation. The Portuguese Empire
had this crazy idea that half of the world was theirs, to
make them good catholics sudits of the King of Portugal.

The craziest thing is that they _almost_ succeeded, at an enormous
cost to Portugal itself. I've read somewhere that between 1500 and
1580 (or so, when Dom Sebastião vanished and Portugal was
anschlussed by Spain) the population of european Portugal was
reduced to _half_, as they desperately tried to grab half of
the world.

What I mean is that the portuguese genocide of brazilian natives
was either accidental (diseases) or assimilation. Each native
tribe that spontaneously converted to catholicism - and many of
them did, as the technology of the invaders was really 
impressive - was immediately accepted in equal terms with the 
portuguese colonists. They wouldn't be able to conquer such a
vast area in so little time otherwise - just to compare, by
1580 or so all coastline of Brazil was firmly secured in 
Portuguese control, and then they (and here I am almost replacing
they by we...) began digging to the inside.

OTOH, there were some episodes of deliberate genocide, with - as
usual (WTG! take note on this! Religion is evil!!!) - a theological
justification. Canibal tribes were considered soulless (how can a
canibal resurect on Judgment Day, when most of this flesh comes from
other people? It's absurd that God would resurect a man with missing
parts, so the natural conclusion is that canibals don't have a soul),
and were fair game to extermination.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Portuguese expansion and Religion is Evil [was: Sore losers]

2008-08-28 Thread Charlie Bell


On 28/08/2008, at 10:43 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

 Charlie Bell wrote:

 Really? I'm sure Native Americans, original Australians (especially
 in  Tasmania where they were wiped out), the fuzzywuzzies who were
 made  to build railways in Africa and so on would disagree with
 that.  Britain has just as shameful a past in slavery and
 extermination as  the French, Dutch, Belgians, Portugese... Maybe  
 more.

 I think we must separate what was deliberate extermination,
 accidental extermination and assimilation.

That's fair.

 What I mean is that the portuguese genocide of brazilian natives
 was either accidental (diseases)

...well, many of the diseases were deliberately spread, but yes, some  
were inadvertantly introduced too.

 or assimilation. Each native
 tribe that spontaneously converted to catholicism - and many of
 them did, as the technology of the invaders was really
 impressive - was immediately accepted in equal terms with the
 portuguese colonists.

Yep.
 They wouldn't be able to conquer such a
 vast area in so little time otherwise - just to compare, by
 1580 or so all coastline of Brazil was firmly secured in
 Portuguese control, and then they (and here I am almost replacing
 they by we...) began digging to the inside.

 OTOH, there were some episodes of deliberate genocide, with - as
 usual (WTG! take note on this! Religion is evil!!!) - a theological
 justification. Canibal tribes were considered soulless

The irony when (many/most) Catholics believe that they are literally  
eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Christ does not escape me,  
but I'm sure it did them.

But yes, the Portuguse may not have been *as* bad as the Spanish, say.  
But pretty much all of the European colonial powers killed a lot of  
people in their quest for control of as much land as possible, and  
it's just a matter of degrees really.

Charlie.
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-28 Thread Jon Louis Mann


  i have to agree that rule britannia were less 
  brutal than most of the other european colonists.
  jon

 Really? I'm sure Native Americans, original Australians
 (especially in  
 Tasmania where they were wiped out), the
 fuzzywuzzies who were made  
 to build railways in Africa and so on would disagree with
 that.  
 Britain has just as shameful a past in slavery and
 extermination as  
 the French, Dutch, Belgians, Portuguese... Maybe more.
 Charlie.

you could be right, although i read a history of columbus where he would 
torture and executed the peaceful native americans that welcomed him, bearing 
gifts, etc.  cutting off their hands when they couldn't give him more gold.  I 
believe the pope divided up the indies between the portuguese and the spanish.
jon





  
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Rceeberger


On 8/27/2008 12:10:37 AM, Warren Ockrassa ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On Aug 26, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Rceeberger wrote:

  You have a weird perspective. It
 isn't that America is moving down,
  it is
  that so many are moving up into our realm.

 Beg to differ. In the last three or so decades we've
 seen a rise in
 disparagement of education,* particularly in the sciences, a loss of
 critical thinking ability in the general population, and a trend
 toward becoming a service-based economy. This doesn't strike me as
 evidence that the US is holding its own; the sense to me is one of an
 empire in decline.

 * When intellectuals are called elitists, for instance, I disbelieve
 that things bode well.

While I would agree that intellectualism is and has been the subject of much 
trash talking, our standard of living has risen during my lifetime modestly 
while it has risen dramatically in much of the developing world (Frex 
China).
It seems to me that a narrow focus on ones hobby horses and axes is not 
conducive to a critical appraisal.
Life here has not begun to suck while no longer sucking in other parts of 
the world.

xponent
Your Apple Is Not My Orange Maru
rob 

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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Alberto Monteiro


William T Goodall wrote:

 So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for  
 the olympics? And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt as long as he's 
  clean? And the manufactured fuss about miming during the opening 
  ceremony when everybody does it during these kind of events (the  
 Australians admitted they did it at Sydney). And the 'not real 
 sports'  jibes about table tennis, rhythmic gymnastics and others?
 
 Beach Volleyball Rules Maru

You should see what's happening here. We failed miserably where
we were expected to win gold medals: soccer (both genders), beach
volleyball (both genders) and volleyball (male). Of these, only
the female volleyball team got a gold medal. Let's blame Beijing's
polluted air!

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Alberto Monteiro

Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 I bow down to the Chinese volleyball girls, 

Err... They were blasted 3 x 0 by the Brazilian volleyball girls :-P

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Charlie Bell


On 27/08/2008, at 12:27 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
 Because if you assign 3 points for gold, 2 for silver and 1 point  
 for bronze, then the crybaby yanks lost to china, and that is  
 unacceptable to the American chauvinist, patriotic, jingoist,  
 dogmatic, nationalistic media.  Americans can not accept that they  
 are on their way down, and no longer first in everything.  They  
 whine because they can't prove the Chinese gymnists lied about their  
 age.  Who cares what age they are; that is an arbitrary rule that  
 should be eliminated.

No, absolutely not. First - whether or not it's arbitrary, it's a  
rule. If they were underage, they were underage. One might say that  
it's arbitrary that 2 200m runners were disqualified for running out  
of the lane in the final. Yes, it's arbitrary, but it's a rule. All  
the competitions have their rules set in advance. Arbitrary or  
otherwise, entering the competition binds one by the rules, and  
breaking them leads to disqualification.

Second, there's good evidence to show that the sort of intensive  
training in gymnastics that'll make a lass competitive will cause  
serious joint problems later on in life at 13-14 and is significantly  
less likely to at 16 when the long bones have done their growing and  
are hardening. That's the reason for the rule, and it's a good one.  
There are age limits in many sports to compete at the highest level,  
and there's nothing wrong with that.

  I bow down to the Chinese volleyball girls, and all the other  
 champions that dominated this Olympics.  If it wasn't for Phelps  
 (aided by American society's peculiar syndrome of ADHD) America  
 would have done even more poorly.

Yep.

A very good Olympics. Not as tarnished by drugs as I thought so  
pleased. However, much more tarnished by the win-at-all-costs attitude  
of many nations (probably more the media than anything, but it was  
still there.).

Charlie.
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Charlie Bell


On 27/08/2008, at 3:26 PM, Doug Pensinger wrote:

 Jon wrote:

 They whine because they can't prove the Chinese gymnists lied about  
 their
 age.  Who cares what age they are; that is an arbitrary rule that  
 should be
 eliminated.


 I could be wrong, but doesn't the rule have something to do with the  
 adverse
 effect of the extreme amount of stress on a young, developing body?   
 If the
 rule was arbitrary, why don't they have it for other sports?

They do. Divers, 14. Fencers, 17. And so on.

Charlie.
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread xponentrob

- Original Message - 
From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Brin-L brin-l@mccmedia.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 26, 2008 7:36 PM
Subject: Sore losers

 So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for
 the olympics?

Before the games started there were some arguments about predicted medal 
counts, with most experts predicting pretty much exactly what happened and 
a few others predicting Americans winning more gold than China. What you are 
seeing is probably related to the majority razzing the dissenters (for being 
too nationalistic as I am hearing it).

And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt as long as he's
 clean?

Heh.the last few Olympics have been marred by drug scandals. IIRC 
Johnson was stripped of medals (and records) and there was a good deal of 
discussion about Carl Lewis and whether he was clean. What I am hearing is 
a great deal of praise and awe of Bolt who was just plain amazing in the 100 
and 200. The drug situation is constant news over here in a variety of 
sports..even professional (fake) wrestling. (I refer you to the stories 
about Chris Benoit) It is pretty much an obsession over here.

 And the manufactured fuss about miming during the opening
 ceremony when everybody does it during these kind of events (the
 Australians admitted they did it at Sydney).

In general, I think people recognize that the Beijing opening ceremonies 
were a feat that is not likely to be repeated anytime soon. Too big, too 
lavish, too over the top for anyone else to invest so much again.
But the purported message the Chinese wished to send and their actual 
implimentation are at odds. The message was of unity between the diverse 
ethnic groups of China, but all those ethnic groups were portrayed by Hans, 
and given the American experience with racism and prejudice, it smacks of 
rank hypocrisy. (We claim to be against such things)

And the 'not real sports'
 jibes about table tennis, rhythmic gymnastics and others?

I suppose it just generally flows that some games will never be considered 
sports by some. If I were getting paid (or subsidized) to play Monopoly or 
Team Fortress, I would expect to hear similar arguments.

 Beach Volleyball Rules Maru

Pretty intense innit?

xponent
Lack Of Protests Maru
rob

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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Rceeberger


On 8/27/2008 6:11:29 AM, Alberto Monteiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 William T Goodall wrote:
 
  So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for
  the olympics? And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt
 as long as he's
   clean? And the manufactured fuss about miming
 during the opening
   ceremony when everybody does it during these kind of events (the
  Australians admitted they did it at Sydney). And the
 'not real
  sports'  jibes about table tennis, rhythmic gymnastics and
 others?
 
  Beach Volleyball Rules Maru
 
 You should see
 what's happening here. We failed miserably where
 we were expected to win gold medals: soccer (both genders), beach
 volleyball (both genders) and volleyball (male). Of these, only
 the female volleyball team got a gold medal. Let's
 blame Beijing's
 polluted air!

All we saw on Network TV was the American teams playing whoever..
But the Brazilians were among the best I saw. You guys are ass kicking


xponent
Looked Like We Were Going To Lose To You In All Those Games At Some Points 
Maru
rob 

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RE: Sore losers


The age of the gymnasts is not an arbitrary rule that should be eliminated. My 
daughter was in gymnastics for a while. Training at Olympic level is very hard 
on growing bones and muscles, and it is easy for a youngster still growing to 
do permanent damage to his or her body. My other daughter was in age-group 
track and field and they were very careful about that, including having 
well-defined age levels and rules and standards for each. 

This has been a problem in the past in other school sports where the kids may 
have the power for the sport but have not yet reached their full growth.

http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/






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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Alberto Monteiro


xponent wrote:

 You should see
 what's happening here. We failed miserably where
 we were expected to win gold medals: soccer (both genders), beach
 volleyball (both genders) and volleyball (male). Of these, only
 the female volleyball team got a gold medal. Let's
 blame Beijing's polluted air!

 All we saw on Network TV was the American teams playing whoever..
 But the Brazilians were among the best I saw. You guys are ass kicking
 
 xponent
 Looked Like We Were Going To Lose To You In All Those Games At Some 
 Points Maru rob
 
Yes, but, except for female volleyball, the USA won _all_ those
games. Male volleyball was the hardest to lose, because the br
team has won almost all the competitions in the past 8 years
or so (and it's said that brazilians reinvented volleyball,
adding intelligence to a game of strength and height). And female
soccer keeps losing in the end, to different teams - like 
Kiln People, it's a persistent second place, to different winners.

Alberto Monteiro

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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Rceeberger


On 8/27/2008 7:21:50 AM, Alberto Monteiro ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 xponent wrote:
 
  You should see
 
 what's happening here. We failed miserably where
  we were expected to win gold medals: soccer (both genders), beach
  volleyball (both genders) and volleyball (male). Of these, only
  the female volleyball team got a gold medal. Let's
  blame
 Beijing's polluted air!
 
  All we saw on Network TV was the American teams playing whoever..
  But the Brazilians were among the best I saw. You guys are ass 
  kicking
 
  xponent
  Looked Like We Were Going To Lose To You In All Those Games At Some
  Points Maru rob
 
 Yes, but, except for female volleyball, the USA won _all_ those
 games. Male volleyball was the hardest to lose, because the br
 team has won almost all the competitions in the past 8 years
 or so (and it's
 said that brazilians reinvented volleyball,
 adding intelligence to a game of strength and height). And female
 soccer keeps losing in the end, to different teams - like
 Kiln People, it's a persistent second place, to different winners.

 Alberto Monteiro

Let me state it another way. There would have been no shame in losing to 
your teams.
It is very similar to the situation with womens gymnastics, Our women were 
very good, just not good enough to beat the women from China, but the 
competition was at such a high level that it was fun to watch even when at a 
marked disadvantage.
Same goes for many of the races in track and field. Bolt for example is 
sooo damn good, you have to smile even when you don't place or show.

What I would like to see (just a dream mind you) is a more level playing 
field worldwide. There is such variation in the abilities of nations to 
train their athletes that much potential is wasted due to lack of better 
training. If everyone were able to train at similar levels, I suspect we 
would see even better competition and a broader dispersion of awards.
(In that medal awards tend to concentrate towards the nations that can 
afford to train athletes.)

xponent
Sports Fans Maru
rob 

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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Nick Arnett

On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:36 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for
 the olympics?


Who is doing this counting?  I just searched Google News and what I see are
headlines like US pleased with Olympic medal count.  I really couldn't
find any of the sort of complaining you allege.


 And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt as long as he's
 clean?


I searched on that phrase and I got nothing.  The only articles I find about
this are some concerns that Jamaica only started a national drug-testing
program after the start of the Olympics.  Who's supposedly saying this?  The
news reports I'm reading say that the Jamaican team was tested repeatedly
during the games.

In short, cite please.

Nick
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RE: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Tom F


Jeez dude, did you not get a hug today? As an average 'Yank' I can say with all 
honesty most of us could give a ** about our medals. G Dub is an A-Hole. We get 
it. Didn't we join this forum because we're interested in science fiction? 
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 19:27:15 -0700 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Sore 
losers To: brin-l@mccmedia.com   So why are the Americans counting total 
medals instead of  golds for   the Olympics? And why the innuendo about 
Usain Bolt  as long as he's   clean? And the manufactured fuss about 
miming during  the opening   ceremony when everybody does it during these 
kind of events  (the   Australians admitted they did it at Sydney). And 
the  'not real sports'   jibes about table tennis, rhythmic gymnastics and 
others?  Beach Volleyball Rules Maru  William T Goodall  Because if you 
assign 3 points for gold, 2 for silver and 1 point for bronze, then the crybaby 
yanks lost to china, and that is unacceptable to th
 e American chauvinist, patriotic, jingoist, dogmatic, nationalistic media. 
Americans can not accept that they are on their way down, and no longer first 
in everything. They whine because they can't prove the Chinese gymnists lied 
about their age. Who cares what age they are; that is an arbitrary rule that 
should be eliminated. I bow down to the Chinese volleyball girls, and all the 
other champions that dominated this Olympics. If it wasn't for Phelps (aided by 
American society's peculiar syndrome of ADHD) America would have done even more 
poorly. Jon___ 
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RE: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Tom F


You realize of course the Killer Bs have only one British inductee? I don't 
hate on Britannia. God save the Queen and all that. I love every minute I've 
spent in GB. However, I hate to point out the painfully obvious again but you 
are registered and trading quips in a discussion group based in the sci-fi 
community with a Yank as the namesake.sniff...my countries medal 
count...sob..oh wait, I forgot we don't really care From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: Sore losers Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 
20:10:25 -0700  On Aug 26, 2008, at 7:27 PM, Jon Louis Mann wrote:   
Americans can not accept that they are on their way down, and no   longer 
first in everything.  Some might not be able to. Some of us have been saying 
so for years.  -- Warren Ockrassa Blog | 
http://indigestible.nightwares.com/ Books | http://books.nightwares.com/ Web 
| http://www.nightwares.com/  
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread William T Goodall


On 27 Aug 2008, at 16:35, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:36 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

 So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for
 the olympics?


 Who is doing this counting?  I just searched Google News and what I  
 see are
 headlines like US pleased with Olympic medal count.  I really  
 couldn't
 find any of the sort of complaining you allege.


 From the Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5963934.html

BEIJING — As China celebrated the end of the 2008 Beijing Olympics by  
gazing upon its pile of gold medals and dipping into Western culture  
to proclaim, “We’re No. 1,” the United States contemplated the glories  
of the socialist collective — and came up with the same answer.
Taking individual event finals into account, the host nation was the  
runaway leader in gold medals, with 51 to 36 for the United States.  
But the United States led in total medals with 110 to 100 for China,  
72 for Russia and 47 for Great Britain, host of the 2012 London Games.
On top of that, as the country that introduced and perfected the  
concept of sabermetrical parsing, the U.S. came up with a way to  
finish on top in gold medals.

Counting its dominance in team sports in the final week of the Games,  
“More individual U.S. athletes will carry home gold medals around  
their neck than any other nation, if you want to count it that way,”  
said Jim Scherr, U.S. Olympic Committee CEO.
By that measure, the Americans routed the home team. Computing gold  
medals presented to each athlete on teams in men’s and women’s  
basketball, men’s volleyball, women’s rowing, beach volleyball and  
relay teams in track and swimming, among others, the U.S. claimed 125  
total golds to 74 for China. In total medals awarded, the United  
States scored 315 to 186 for China.




 And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt as long as he's
 clean?


 I searched on that phrase and I got nothing.  The only articles I  
 find about
 this are some concerns that Jamaica only started a national drug- 
 testing
 program after the start of the Olympics.  Who's supposedly saying  
 this?  The
 news reports I'm reading say that the Jamaican team was tested  
 repeatedly
 during the games.

 In short, cite please.

 From the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/sports/olympics/22longman.html?_r=1emoref=slogin

As Records Fall, Suspicions of Doping Linger

[...]
I want to believe that talent and hard work and determination are not  
fossil fuels, that a human, unlike a car, does not need chemical  
additives to run at peak efficiency.

Bolt is likable, as playful as he is fast. His speed is breathtaking.

He is the first man to win the Olympic 100 and 200 meters since Carl  
Lewis in 1984, the first to set world records in both events at the  
same Summer Games.

But when I want to fully believe, I feel a twinge of skepticism. It  
nags, like a strained hamstring.

Plenty more in that vein in the American press.

Cite Maru





-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow?


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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread John Garcia

On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 12:49 PM, William T Goodall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:


 On 27 Aug 2008, at 16:35, Nick Arnett wrote:

  On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:36 PM, William T Goodall 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  wrote:
 
  So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for
  the olympics?
 
 
  Who is doing this counting?  I just searched Google News and what I
  see are
  headlines like US pleased with Olympic medal count.  I really
  couldn't
  find any of the sort of complaining you allege.


  From the Houston Chronicle

 http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5963934.html

 BEIJING — As China celebrated the end of the 2008 Beijing Olympics by
 gazing upon its pile of gold medals and dipping into Western culture
 to proclaim, We're No. 1, the United States contemplated the glories
 of the socialist collective — and came up with the same answer.
 Taking individual event finals into account, the host nation was the
 runaway leader in gold medals, with 51 to 36 for the United States.
 But the United States led in total medals with 110 to 100 for China,
 72 for Russia and 47 for Great Britain, host of the 2012 London Games.
 On top of that, as the country that introduced and perfected the
 concept of sabermetrical parsing, the U.S. came up with a way to
 finish on top in gold medals.

 Counting its dominance in team sports in the final week of the Games,
 More individual U.S. athletes will carry home gold medals around
 their neck than any other nation, if you want to count it that way,
 said Jim Scherr, U.S. Olympic Committee CEO.
 By that measure, the Americans routed the home team. Computing gold
 medals presented to each athlete on teams in men's and women's
 basketball, men's volleyball, women's rowing, beach volleyball and
 relay teams in track and swimming, among others, the U.S. claimed 125
 total golds to 74 for China. In total medals awarded, the United
 States scored 315 to 186 for China.

 
 
 
  And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt as long as he's
  clean?
 
 
  I searched on that phrase and I got nothing.  The only articles I
  find about
  this are some concerns that Jamaica only started a national drug-
  testing
  program after the start of the Olympics.  Who's supposedly saying
  this?  The
  news reports I'm reading say that the Jamaican team was tested
  repeatedly
  during the games.
 
  In short, cite please.
 
  From the New York Times


 http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/sports/olympics/22longman.html?_r=1emoref=slogin

 As Records Fall, Suspicions of Doping Linger

 [...]
 I want to believe that talent and hard work and determination are not
 fossil fuels, that a human, unlike a car, does not need chemical
 additives to run at peak efficiency.

 Bolt is likable, as playful as he is fast. His speed is breathtaking.

 He is the first man to win the Olympic 100 and 200 meters since Carl
 Lewis in 1984, the first to set world records in both events at the
 same Summer Games.

 But when I want to fully believe, I feel a twinge of skepticism. It
 nags, like a strained hamstring.

 Plenty more in that vein in the American press.

 Cite Maru





 --
 William T Goodall
 Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
 Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

 You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow?


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Jere Longman's article is clearly an opinion piece. My impression from
reading the article is that Longman is not complaining that a non-American
won the gold in the 200 meters, but is a comment on doping in sports.
Here is a link to the NYT article written when Bolt won the gold medal. It
is in a different vein.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/21/sports/olympics/21bolt.html

john
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread sendai

On 28/08/2008, at 1:35 AM, Nick Arnett wrote:
 On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:36 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:
 So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for
 the olympics?
 Who is doing this counting?  I just searched Google News and what I  
 see are
 headlines like US pleased with Olympic medal count.  I really  
 couldn't
 find any of the sort of complaining you allege.
Bah! You're all counting it wrong! The true measure of medal count is  
the number of medals per capita GDP! At which point North Korea wins!

I for one, support Fake Kim's[1] experiments in increasing medal worth  
by reducing GDP.

1. 
http://www.japantoday.com/category/kuchikomi/view/north-koreas-kim-died-in-2003-and-was-replaced-by-lookalike-says-waseda-profesor
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Sore losers


 The age of the gymnasts is not an arbitrary rule that should
 be eliminated. My daughter was in gymnastics for a while.
 Training at Olympic level is very hard on growing bones and
 muscles, and it is easy for a youngster still growing to do
 permanent damage to his or her body. My other daughter was
 in age-group track and field and they were very careful
 about that, including having well-defined age levels and
 rules and standards for each. 
 This has been a problem in the past in other school sports
 where the kids may have the power for the sport but have not
 yet reached their full growth.
 http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/

if that is the reason for creating the rule, perhaps it should be extended so 
young children are not allowed to start training until their bodies have 
matured, and the vault and beam competitions should be eliminated altogether, 
for obvious reasons...
jon


  
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RE: Sore losers


Training is fine; competition at the Olympic level and the training necessary 
for *that* is too much for growing bodies. Vault and beam are fine - kids do 
that sort of thing for fun, in fact,and always have. But still, the Games 
should be for adults.


http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/





 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 12:31:11 -0700
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Sore losers
 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
 
 
  The age of the gymnasts is not an arbitrary rule that should
  be eliminated. My daughter was in gymnastics for a while.
  Training at Olympic level is very hard on growing bones and
  muscles, and it is easy for a youngster still growing to do
  permanent damage to his or her body. My other daughter was
  in age-group track and field and they were very careful
  about that, including having well-defined age levels and
  rules and standards for each. 
  This has been a problem in the past in other school sports
  where the kids may have the power for the sport but have not
  yet reached their full growth.
  http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/
 
 if that is the reason for creating the rule, perhaps it should be extended so 
 young children are not allowed to start training until their bodies have 
 matured, and the vault and beam competitions should be eliminated altogether, 
 for obvious reasons...
 jon
 
 
   
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Sore losers

  They whine because they can't prove the Chinese
 gymnasts lied about their
  age.  Who cares what age they are; that is an
 arbitrary rule that should be
  eliminated.
  Jon

 I could be wrong, but doesn't the rule have something
 to do with the adverse
 effect of the extreme amount of stress on a young,
 developing body?  If the
 rule was arbitrary, why don't they have it for other
 sports?   In any case,
 who are the Chinese (or any one else) to decide that the
 rules are OK to
 break if they think that they are arbitrary?
 Also, I could be wrong but I seem to remember that when you
 and I were
 younger Jon, the U.S. got fewer medals in the Olympics than
 both the Soviets
 _and_ the East Germans, so I'm not sure how we're
 going down by getting the
 second most Gold medals.
 By the way, I thought the Olympics were great and I watched
 as much as I had
 time for.  The Chinese did a great job.
 Doug

i stand corrected on the reason for the rule.   furthermore i would advocate 
that all dangerous competitions involving children be eliminated altogether.  

it is not a new phenomenon for america to lose in the olympics.  what i meant 
when i said america was going down is that we are losing our dominance on the 
world stage.  china is on the way up.  russia is also recovering and starting 
to challenge us in europe, again.  

also, the chinese are not the only olympic athletes to cheat, they just aren't 
imprisoned when caught.
jon


  
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---Pat Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Training is fine; competition at the Olympic level and the
 training necessary for *that* is too much for growing
 bodies. Vault and beam are fine - kids do that sort of thing
 for fun, in fact,and always have. But still, the Games
 should be for adults.

doing flips on a four inch beam are not fine for kids, even if they do it all 
the time.  neither are boxing, football and a host of other dangerous sports.  
when i grew up we played sports, and it was fun...
jon


  
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  I was going to respond to this in detail, but decided
 not to.  I just 
  wonder, if William has posted something with the same
 tone about a 
  religious group, how many people would be all over him
 right now.  The 
  irony is, that I probably agree with some of what
 you're
  saying, but as an American I find the tone offensive.

 Jon is vying to be the Liberals Hate America
 posterboy.
 G
 xponent
 Humor Should Reflect Reality Maru
 rob 


guilty as charged!~) 
jon
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Ah. Gotcha. Yeah - we played sports, but today? Play? What's that? Something 
you make a playdate for. Don't get me started; I think my grandbabies are 
hideously overprotected.

http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/





 Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:07:30 -0700
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Sore losers
 To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
 
 ---Pat Mathews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  Training is fine; competition at the Olympic level and the
  training necessary for *that* is too much for growing
  bodies. Vault and beam are fine - kids do that sort of thing
  for fun, in fact,and always have. But still, the Games
  should be for adults.
 
 doing flips on a four inch beam are not fine for kids, even if they do it all 
 the time.  neither are boxing, football and a host of other dangerous sports. 
  when i grew up we played sports, and it was fun...
 jon
 
 
   
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 You have a weird perspective. It isn't that America is
 moving down, it is 
 that so many are moving up into our realm. And yes there
 are many who see 
 this and react with paranoid insecurity, but they do not
 make up anything 
 like a majority. Most people really don't care all that
 much, evidenced by 
 the lack of violent protest over the items in your next
 paragraph. Most 
 people are proud we did well, enjoyed the games while they
 lasted, and will 
 remember only some highlights a few years down the road.
 You shouldn't pay so much attention to the loudmouths,
 they are not 
 representative.
 xponent
 Phelps Was Awesome Maru
 rob 

i believe they are representative and america is going down (which may not be a 
bad thing).  nationalism is an aberration that is found in many countries, and 
to be abhorred.  it is especially repugnant in nations where their citizens 
actually believe they are better than other nations (like some french, saudi, 
israeli, japanese citizens, etc.).  at least the english have accepted they are 
no longer imperial rulers, even if many brits still believe their civilization 
is superior.  in my lifelong travels around the world, i have encountered many 
ugly americans and can understand why michele obama said that for the first 
time she was proud to be an american.  I fervently hope that obama will undo 
much of the damage done by bushco.
jon



  
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 From: Tom F [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 You realize of course the Killer Bs have only one British
 inductee? I don't hate on Britannia. God save the Queen
 and all that. I love every minute I've spent in GB.
 However, I hate to point out the painfully obvious again but
 you are registered and trading quips in a discussion group
 based in the sci-fi community with a Yank as the
 namesake.sniff...my countries medal count...sob..oh
 wait, I forgot we don't really care.

i have to agree that rule britannia were less brutal than most of the other 
european colonists.  

i am also a yank, who still smarts from being told (in the 60s) america, love 
it or leave it.  i was born in this country and reserve my inalienable right 
to remain here, and hate the government!~) at least i do more than complain, 
and try my best to change it.
jon
http://www.smartvoter.org/2006/11/07/ca/la/vote/mann_j/



  
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 Jeez dude, did you not get a hug today? As an average
 'Yank' I can say with all honesty most of us could
 give a ** about our medals. G Dub is an A-Hole. We get it.
 Didn't we join this forum because we're interested
 in science fiction?
 From: Tom F [EMAIL PROTECTED]

sorry to offend you, tom, but i am just stating my opinion.  i signed on to 
this list because i am a fan of dr. brin's books, and to me science fiction is 
socially relevant, speculative literature.  i also enjoy the repartee, 
especially on topics of religion and politics...
jon





  
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 Ah. Gotcha. Yeah - we played sports, but today? Play?
 What's that? Something you make a playdate for.
 Don't get me started; I think my grandbabies are
 hideously overprotected.
 http://idiotgrrl.livejournal.com/

my older son had pop warner.  i did play little league, but i had more fun 
playing pickup games and didn't have to sit on the bench...   my 5 year old who 
watches t.v. and plays violent video games, except on the few occasions when 
i get to see him.  my ex doesn't believe in any kind of trauma so jerry is 
rarely refused anything, and regulates himself.  he recently weaned himself 
from breast feeding and diapers.  dr. spock would be in shock...


  
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RE: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Ronn! Blankenship

At 03:13 PM Wednesday 8/27/2008, Pat Mathews wrote:


Ah. Gotcha. Yeah - we played sports, but today? Play? What's that? 
Something you make a playdate for. Don't get me started; I think my 
grandbabies are hideously overprotected.



What do you do when several times each year in your town kids get 
shot dead in the park, walking down the street, standing on the 
balcony outside their apartment door, or when a bullet comes through 
the window or wall (all of them being collateral damage rather than 
the target of whatever gang or gangs are doing the shooting)?


Unprintable Opinion Maru


. . . ronn!  :)



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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread Warren Ockrassa

On Aug 26, 2008, at 11:27 PM, Rceeberger wrote:

 On 8/27/2008 12:10:37 AM, Warren Ockrassa ([EMAIL PROTECTED])  
 wrote:
 On Aug 26, 2008, at 9:49 PM, Rceeberger wrote:

 You have a weird perspective. It
 isn't that America is moving down,
 it is
 that so many are moving up into our realm.

 Beg to differ. In the last three or so decades we've
 seen a rise in
 disparagement of education,* particularly in the sciences, a loss of
 critical thinking ability in the general population, and a trend
 toward becoming a service-based economy. This doesn't strike me as
 evidence that the US is holding its own; the sense to me is one of an
 empire in decline.

 * When intellectuals are called elitists, for instance, I  
 disbelieve
 that things bode well.

 While I would agree that intellectualism is and has been the subject  
 of much
 trash talking, our standard of living has risen during my lifetime  
 modestly
 while it has risen dramatically in much of the developing world (Frex
 China).

I can't say I disagree there, but I wonder how it looks from the  
perspective of the Chinese. They seem to have taken notes from the  
Cheney administration regarding free speech or protest zones,  
which apart from a few minor mentions in major US news organs went  
more or less totally ignored. Except, apparently, by a few protestors  
who got arrested.

 It seems to me that a narrow focus on ones hobby horses and axes is  
 not
 conducive to a critical appraisal.

I'm not sure what's narrow about having a worldview that tries to  
take in perspectives outside of the US. We're not doing well in the  
diplomacy department, we're engaged in two losing wars in the Middle  
East, our economy is imploding, Louisiana seems to be worried it might  
get creamed by another hurricane which we won't be able to help with  
any more than we did with Katrina, we've ignored our interstate system  
for three decades, we're locking up increasing numbers of people on  
crimes which would be petty or nonexistent in any other industrialized  
nation, and our schools are laughingstocks.

These are hardly hobbyhorses; they're more or less indisputable facts.

 Life here has not begun to suck while no longer sucking in other  
 parts of
 the world.

Heh, yes, that's true. It is, however, beginning to suck more than it  
did before.

--
Warren Ockrassa
Blog  | http://indigestible.nightwares.com/
Books | http://books.nightwares.com/
Web   | http://www.nightwares.com/

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RE: Sore losers