Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[James Saxe via Callers]

Mac McKeever wrote:

> It has been my experience that dancers with limited skills/ability  often do 
> not realize they are different from anyone else.  They assume that being lost 
> and confused during a dance is normal.
> 
> Finding a gentle way to bring this to their attention might be a good way to 
> start

and Ron Blechner replied:

> Mac, suggestions on how?

JD Erskine meanwhile offered this comment:

> If our ... dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and 
> can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to direct 
> him more in the normal flow of the dance.
> 
> To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered 
> assistance.

to which Ron similarly replied:

> I'd love to hear suggestions on how to approach a dancer like the one in 
> question, and broach the subject.

So far I haven't seen anyone respond to Ron's request for
suggestions about opening such a potentially delicate
conversation.

I don't have a fully-developed suggestion either, but I have what
may be the germ of an idea: Perhaps the thing to do would be to
start by asking the person a question.  I'll illustrate with a
story.

When I was a new square and contra dancer, I was quite mystified
about just what to do with my feet during a swing.  I remember
trying to watch other dancers' feet when they were swinging and
I was inactive, and I remember not being able to figure it
out--though it seems completely obvious when I watch now.  In
case anyone's wondering, the local dances where I lived at the
time didn't normally include an official new dancers'
workshop/lesson/orientation.  The visiting caller at my very
first trad dance *did* offer some specific instruction on
swinging, but I somehow missed out on it for reasons I won't go
into now.

Anyway, after I'd been going to dances for maybe three or four
months and staggering/stumbling/bumbling through all the swings,
there was some kind of break at a dance one day, and the partner
I'd just danced with took the opportunity to ask me a question
that I remember as something like, "Was that a one-step [perhaps


she actually said "buzz-step"] or a two-step swing you were 

   
doing?" just as if she'd noticed something interesting about my
swing and wanted me to teach her what I had been doing.  I said
that I had no idea what I was supposed to do (which, in
retrospect, she must obviously have already known),  She offered


to teach me.  And that was when I first learned to do a buzz-step   

 
swing, very bouncily at first, then gradually smoothing out over
the next few weeks and months.

Years later, after moving across the country, I was back visiting
my former city and I saw that same woman at a dance.  I asked her
about the conversation I've just described.  She didn't remember
the details, but she agreed with my guess that her question had
probably been a ploy to find out whether I was open to instruction.

A similar sort of ploy would be to ask someone for ideas on how
to teach beginning dancers about such-and-such, naming a topic
that the person you're addressing understands only vaguely if at
all.

Of course, when my friend asked me that ploy question years
ago, she couldn't have known for sure that my response would be
to admit ignorance and seek instruction.  I might, for all she
knew, have responded defensively or even confrontationally (but
I think she could reasonably have expected  my response to be
less emotionally charged than if she had bluntly asked something
like "Do you realize that your swings are really awkward?").  Or
if I were vaguely aware of my lack of skill but also strongly in
denial about it, I might have given an evasive answer accompanied
by nervous laughter: "Well, we all have our own personal styles,
don't we?  Heh, heh, heh."

--Jim

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Bob Green via Callers]

St. Louis does it similarly to what Linda describes. We have several
dancers who are bound to be canonized. We have tried to build it into the
ethos that on of the marks of a good dancer is there skill at helping
challenged dancers and their neighbors have a good time. You will almost
never see a new dancer sit out in the first half unless they ask to. Not
only does it help them feel welcome, but it also helps assure they have
someone with the skill to assist them.

Bob Green
St. Louis

(pardon if this is a duplicate, but I think it was rejected as I sent it
from the wrong account the first time

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:54 PM, Linda Leslie via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> A while back, we had the same sort of challenge at one of the local
> dances.  About a dozen of us from the dance community got together to
> problem solve. The group decided that if one of us made sure that the
> challenged dancer had a partner for each dance, that it would be good for
> the entire dance. The less-than-satisfying dance experience would only last
> for 10 minutes or so, but improve the experience for the rest of folks in
> the set. Our reward: the continuous smile on the challenged dancer’s face
> more than made up for any perceived loss of “quality” dance time.  This
> gesture made a lot of difference, making the dance more pleasurable for all
> involved.
>
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Claire Baffaut via Callers]

John, I like what you said: "To do more certainly would be best with
permission, awareness of offered assistance."
This might be also be one of the way to give him/her a hint that there is a
problem and that we are willing to help solve the said problem.

Claire.

On Tue, Mar 7, 2017 at 3:49 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I'd love to hear suggestions on how to approach a dancer like the one in
> question, and broach the subject.
>
> -Ron Blechner
>
> On Mar 7, 2017 1:20 PM, "JD Erskine via Callers" <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-03-07 0627, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
>>
>>> I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:
>>>
>>> As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the
>>> female of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the
>>> male.
>>>
>>
>> major snip
>>
>> In general, then, it’s a lot
>>> easier for a big guy to gently direct a small mixed-up woman in the
>>> right direction, than it is for me to change the course of the Titanic
>>> once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely another
>>> reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we
>>> have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it
>>> equally difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man
>>> with her, but gave it up because it hurt my arms too much.
>>>
>>
>> Martha
>>>
>>
>> George Marshall was in town in the autumn. A teaching point that stood
>> out for me in his pre-dance/inclusivity workshop was, that if someone is
>> still/stationary it's more difficult to move them or guide them to where
>> they might go.
>>
>> If someone is dancing (simply in motion of some sort), even if in a place
>> other than expected, they may be directed more easily.
>>
>> (I keep thinking an air-hockey table at work, however I'm from "up here".)
>>
>> If our male dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and
>> can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to
>> direct him more in the normal flow of the dance.
>>
>> To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered
>> assistance.
>>
>> Cheers, John
>> --
>> J.D. Erskine
>> Victoria, BC
>>
>> Island Dance - Folk & Country
>> dance info - site & mail list
>> Vancouver Island & BC islands
>>
>> http://vecds.ca/island.dance/
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>>
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>


-- 
*Claire*

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

I'd love to hear suggestions on how to approach a dancer like the one in
question, and broach the subject.

-Ron Blechner

On Mar 7, 2017 1:20 PM, "JD Erskine via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On 2017-03-07 0627, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:
>
>> I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:
>>
>> As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the
>> female of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the
>> male.
>>
>
> major snip
>
> In general, then, it’s a lot
>> easier for a big guy to gently direct a small mixed-up woman in the
>> right direction, than it is for me to change the course of the Titanic
>> once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely another
>> reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we
>> have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it
>> equally difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man
>> with her, but gave it up because it hurt my arms too much.
>>
>
> Martha
>>
>
> George Marshall was in town in the autumn. A teaching point that stood out
> for me in his pre-dance/inclusivity workshop was, that if someone is
> still/stationary it's more difficult to move them or guide them to where
> they might go.
>
> If someone is dancing (simply in motion of some sort), even if in a place
> other than expected, they may be directed more easily.
>
> (I keep thinking an air-hockey table at work, however I'm from "up here".)
>
> If our male dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and
> can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to
> direct him more in the normal flow of the dance.
>
> To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered
> assistance.
>
> Cheers, John
> --
> J.D. Erskine
> Victoria, BC
>
> Island Dance - Folk & Country
> dance info - site & mail list
> Vancouver Island & BC islands
>
> http://vecds.ca/island.dance/
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[JD Erskine via Callers]

On 2017-03-07 0627, Martha Wild via Callers wrote:

I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:

As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the
female of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the
male.


major snip


In general, then, it’s a lot
easier for a big guy to gently direct a small mixed-up woman in the
right direction, than it is for me to change the course of the Titanic
once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely another
reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we
have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it
equally difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man
with her, but gave it up because it hurt my arms too much.



Martha


George Marshall was in town in the autumn. A teaching point that stood 
out for me in his pre-dance/inclusivity workshop was, that if someone is 
still/stationary it's more difficult to move them or guide them to where 
they might go.


If someone is dancing (simply in motion of some sort), even if in a 
place other than expected, they may be directed more easily.


(I keep thinking an air-hockey table at work, however I'm from "up here".)

If our male dancer in question is lumbering, stiff, not moving much, and 
can/may move, then assisting him in that might help make it easier to 
direct him more in the normal flow of the dance.


To do more certainly would be best with permission, awareness of offered 
assistance.


Cheers, John
--
J.D. Erskine
Victoria, BC

Island Dance - Folk & Country
dance info - site & mail list
Vancouver Island & BC islands

http://vecds.ca/island.dance/

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Martha Wild via Callers]

I’d like to add another point to Neal’s reasoning:

As a 5 foot 1 inch woman dancer (and a caller), I can also add that the female 
of the human species is known to generally be smaller than the male. This is 
such a signature difference that on Voyager they included a graven image of the 
human species, with the woman scientifically proportionately smaller than the 
man. In general, then, it’s a lot easier for a big guy to gently direct a small 
mixed-up woman in the right direction, than it is for me to change the course 
of the Titanic once it starts blundering among the icebergs. That is definitely 
another reason people tend to notice the problem with male dancers more. But we 
have had at least one large dancing-challenged woman whose size made it equally 
difficult to direct - I occasionally tried dancing as the man with her, but 
gave it up because it hurt my arms too much. 

And yes, we used to have two terrible male dancers when we first started our 
series here - one who thought he was great, and wasn’t, and one for whom ladies 
chain seemed to be a new figure each week. They were so bad that as with other 
groups mentioned, a bunch of strong female dancers got together and we decided 
to have one “sacrificial dance” each with them every evening, to prevent them 
from dancing with newcomers and either destroying the whole set or driving the 
newbies away. It reinforced the idea of the first guy who thought he was great 
- women sought him out! And the other guy actually very slowly improved by 
dancing with good dancers all the time. And I still like to grab newcomers who 
are having difficulty early in the evening - but I avoid the really big ones - 
not as strong and unbreakable as I used to be…

Martha




> On Mar 6, 2017, at 10:39 PM, Neal Schlein via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Interesting observation, Alan.
> 
> Yes, I've encountered it with female dancers as a dancer and caller.  
> However...it isn't quite the same.  I suspect it is both more apparent and 
> more pronounced with men, AND that once they've braved the waters to come 
> dancing the experience of it may be less likely to cause them to stop dancing 
> than it is with women.  
> 
> Here's my reasoning:
> 
> Even though squares and contra are not even close to being true lead/follow 
> dances, the men's role is still imbued with more directional control and 
> responsibility in things like properly positioning swings and managing 
> courtesy turns.  A man who persistently fails at those will be more 
> disruptive and obvious than an equally incompetent female counterpart due to 
> simple physics and the nature of contra choreography.  There is nothing to 
> tell him that HE is the problem, and if he has never seen or experienced a 
> truly successful set he doesn't know any better.
> 
> There is also a more significant social component.  Men tend to be rewarded 
> for acting confident and penalized for seeking outside validation, so much so 
> that we do it even when we don't know what we're doing.  Women experience the 
> reverse situation and are likely to be criticized (or feel they will be 
> criticized) for being confident even when they obviously DO know what they 
> are doing.  That means a struggling male dancer is more likely to go 
> confidently wrong than a woman, while a skilled male dancer is more willing 
> to confidently "assist" a difficult partner than his equally skilled female 
> counterparts.  Conversely, a struggling female dancer is more likely to 
> accept assistance and willingly perceive the problem than a man is.
> 
> There is research which has been done on false confidence, where people who 
> possess highly above-average skill will tend to underestimate their own 
> knowledge and overestimate that of others, while those who persistently fail 
> to learn will tend to do the reverse.  This sort of persistent-beginner 
> dancer may actually believe that he is learning at a perfectly fine rate.
> 
> Another piece of research that I think is relevant has to do with the 
> different reactions men and women have to the same act of failure.  An 
> assessment was done of failed funding attempts on Kickstarter.  What the 
> researchers discovered first was that a repeated effort was more likely to 
> succeed.   Then they broke down the behavior by gender.  When male 
> entrepreneurs failed to receive backing, they were highly likely to repost 
> the same project until it succeeded.  A female entrepreneur, on the other 
> hand, would scrap it and try something completely different--if she tried 
> anything at all.  The researchers interpreted this difference as being caused 
> by relative internalization of community commentary.  (I haven't read the 
> original papers, and learned of both topics through NPR.  I can dig up the 
> citations if anyone is interested in learning more.) 
> 
> Anyway, if that conclusion is correct, male versions of these problem dancers 
> may stick 

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Neal Schlein via Callers]

Interesting observation, Alan.

Yes, I've encountered it with female dancers as a dancer and caller.
However...it isn't quite the same.  I suspect it is both more apparent and
more pronounced with men, AND that once they've braved the waters to come
dancing the experience of it may be less likely to cause them to stop
dancing than it is with women.

Here's my reasoning:

Even though squares and contra are not even close to being true lead/follow
dances, the men's role is still imbued with more directional control and
responsibility in things like properly positioning swings and managing
courtesy turns.  A man who persistently fails at those will be more
disruptive and obvious than an equally incompetent female counterpart due
to simple physics and the nature of contra choreography.  There is nothing
to tell him that HE is the problem, and if he has never seen or experienced
a truly successful set he doesn't know any better.

There is also a more significant social component.  Men tend to be rewarded
for acting confident and penalized for seeking outside validation, so much
so that we do it even when we don't know what we're doing.  Women
experience the reverse situation and are likely to be criticized (or feel
they will be criticized) for being confident even when they obviously DO
know what they are doing.  That means a struggling male dancer is more
likely to go confidently wrong than a woman, while a skilled male dancer is
more willing to confidently "assist" a difficult partner than his equally
skilled female counterparts.  Conversely, a struggling female dancer is
more likely to accept assistance and willingly perceive the problem than a
man is.

There is research which has been done on false confidence, where people who
possess highly above-average skill will tend to underestimate their own
knowledge and overestimate that of others, while those who persistently
fail to learn will tend to do the reverse.  This sort of
persistent-beginner dancer may actually believe that he is learning at a
perfectly fine rate.

Another piece of research that I think is relevant has to do with the
different reactions men and women have to the same act of failure.  An
assessment was done of failed funding attempts on Kickstarter.  What the
researchers discovered first was that a repeated effort was more likely to
succeed.   Then they broke down the behavior by gender.  When male
entrepreneurs failed to receive backing, they were highly likely to repost
the same project until it succeeded.  A female entrepreneur, on the other
hand, would scrap it and try something completely different--if she tried
anything at all.  The researchers interpreted this difference as being
caused by relative internalization of community commentary.  (I haven't
read the original papers, and learned of both topics through NPR.  I can
dig up the citations if anyone is interested in learning more.)

Anyway, if that conclusion is correct, male versions of these problem
dancers may stick around despite repeatedly failing, while the female of
the species realizes something is wrong and jumps ship.  This is probably
especially true if the men are receiving any sort of encouragement or
positive feedback at all.

Just some thoughts.
Neal



Neal Schlein
Youth Services Librarian, Mahomet Public Library


Currently reading: *The Different Girl* by Gordon Dahlquist
Currently learning: How to set up an automated email system.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:41 PM, Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I've seen some responses on the organizers list and here, and I've thought
> about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in Berkeley (who did,
> eventually, start modifying the dances so he could get where he needed on
> time, and who indeed various women would ask to dance or he'd be asking the
> new young women dancers and confusing them horribly).
>
> One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is that all
> the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and it's falling on
> experienced women dancers to save the dance from them.
>
> Is this just a problem with small sample sizes?  Has anyone encountered
> this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally can't ever be good at
> it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming back, in female form?
>
> -- Alan
>
>
>
>
> On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via Callers wrote:
>
> We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and ear-mind
> process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about him
> driving).  We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady dancers
> pair with this gentleman.  Otherwise he will ask newbies to dance, and
> often is at the end of the line, after the walk through.  When you dance
> with him you have to call to him through the dance and guide him to where
> he needs to be.  This is how we have dealt with our own issue.
>
> In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's 

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Linda S. Mrosko via Callers]

We have had similar problems with a small number of dancers, mostly men.
One suffered a stroke and was trying to dance to get himself back in shape,
but he was extremely slow, confused and invariably always wanted to dance
with newcomers, which confused them.  As experienced dancers, we agreed to
keep him busy dancing with us only and that worked most of the time.

We have another gent who is very, very book smart, but not conceptually
smart.  After putting up with him dancing every dance with his girlfriend
who was also always confused, he finally confessed to the group that he
needed to know what the move after the swing was to keep him timely.
Viola!  Now that we know to give him more time to concentrate on the move
after a swing, he is a much improved dancer.

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 9:40 PM, Meg Dedolph via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I've run into dancers as a caller and on the floor who fit this
> description - men and women both. Most of the time the problem seems to be
> that they can't get where they need to be on time, or they end a figure
> facing the wrong direction.
> But here's something that I learned in retrospect from an evening spent
> calling a small community dance with a pair of women who were moving too
> slowly for the music and who kept dancing together. I'd call a dance and
> identify these problems and think to myself, "Pick a different dance for
> the next one with a little more slop time in it and more figures where you
> are holding hands with someone and not on your own, or maybe an uneven
> dance." So I'd do that, but then I would notice that the women, who had
> gotten tired during the previous dance, had decided to sit out the dance
> that I'd picked to best meet their needs on the floor and prevent
> breakdowns!
> So then I'd go back to my original plan for the *next* dance, but there
> they'd be, back up on their feet, having rested!
> It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out the pattern. Now I
> know to watch for folks who had a hard time during one dance choosing to
> sit out the next and regroup.
> But, y'know, as soon as I think I have something figured out about
> dancers, humankind throws me a curve ball.
> Meg
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:41 PM Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> I've seen some responses on the organizers list and here, and I've
>> thought about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in Berkeley
>> (who did, eventually, start modifying the dances so he could get where he
>> needed on time, and who indeed various women would ask to dance or he'd be
>> asking the new young women dancers and confusing them horribly).
>>
>> One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is that all
>> the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and it's falling on
>> experienced women dancers to save the dance from them.
>>
>> Is this just a problem with small sample sizes?  Has anyone encountered
>> this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally can't ever be good at
>> it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming back, in female form?
>>
>> -- Alan
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via Callers wrote:
>>
>> We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and
>> ear-mind process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about him
>> driving).  We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady dancers
>> pair with this gentleman.  Otherwise he will ask newbies to dance, and
>> often is at the end of the line, after the walk through.  When you dance
>> with him you have to call to him through the dance and guide him to where
>> he needs to be.  This is how we have dealt with our own issue.
>>
>> In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's workshop
>> where you can address some of the issues you have seen him experience (i.e.
>> the 1/2 alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter swing.
>> Play up the better never than late thing and talk about flourishes and how
>> they are not really a necessary part of the dance experience.
>>
>> the others have mentioned other ideas that are really good.
>>
>> Good luck Marie!
>>
>> Mary in Buffalo
>>
>> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
>> to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
>>
>> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad
>> enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately
>> challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very
>> stiffly which means he will often not be on time for a figure and also
>> often does not remember what is coming next.
>>   We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively
>> impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers
>> will take one for 

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Meg Dedolph via Callers]

I've run into dancers as a caller and on the floor who fit this description
- men and women both. Most of the time the problem seems to be that they
can't get where they need to be on time, or they end a figure facing the
wrong direction.
But here's something that I learned in retrospect from an evening spent
calling a small community dance with a pair of women who were moving too
slowly for the music and who kept dancing together. I'd call a dance and
identify these problems and think to myself, "Pick a different dance for
the next one with a little more slop time in it and more figures where you
are holding hands with someone and not on your own, or maybe an uneven
dance." So I'd do that, but then I would notice that the women, who had
gotten tired during the previous dance, had decided to sit out the dance
that I'd picked to best meet their needs on the floor and prevent
breakdowns!
So then I'd go back to my original plan for the *next* dance, but there
they'd be, back up on their feet, having rested!
It took me an embarrassingly long time to figure out the pattern. Now I
know to watch for folks who had a hard time during one dance choosing to
sit out the next and regroup.
But, y'know, as soon as I think I have something figured out about dancers,
humankind throws me a curve ball.
Meg


On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 7:41 PM Winston, Alan P. via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I've seen some responses on the organizers list and here, and I've thought
> about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in Berkeley (who did,
> eventually, start modifying the dances so he could get where he needed on
> time, and who indeed various women would ask to dance or he'd be asking the
> new young women dancers and confusing them horribly).
>
> One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is that all
> the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and it's falling on
> experienced women dancers to save the dance from them.
>
> Is this just a problem with small sample sizes?  Has anyone encountered
> this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally can't ever be good at
> it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming back, in female form?
>
> -- Alan
>
>
>
>
> On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via Callers wrote:
>
> We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and ear-mind
> process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about him
> driving).  We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady dancers
> pair with this gentleman.  Otherwise he will ask newbies to dance, and
> often is at the end of the line, after the walk through.  When you dance
> with him you have to call to him through the dance and guide him to where
> he needs to be.  This is how we have dealt with our own issue.
>
> In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's workshop
> where you can address some of the issues you have seen him experience (i.e.
> the 1/2 alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter swing.
> Play up the better never than late thing and talk about flourishes and how
> they are not really a necessary part of the dance experience.
>
> the others have mentioned other ideas that are really good.
>
> Good luck Marie!
>
> Mary in Buffalo
>
> “Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
> to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad
> enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately
> challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very
> stiffly which means he will often not be on time for a figure and also
> often does not remember what is coming next.
>   We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively
> impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers
> will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant
> experience to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new
> dancers and having one couple not be where they should be can really throw
> them off in some dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around
> to be on time, despite the fact that it's a little rude.
>A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was quite
> accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar troubles,
> does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other dancers
> still have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
> Thank you
> Marie
> ContraMontreal
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Callers mailing 
> 

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Winston, Alan P. via Callers]

I've seen some responses on the organizers list and here, and I've 
thought about the persistent rock-in-the-stream dancer we had in 
Berkeley (who did, eventually, start modifying the dances so he could 
get where he needed on time, and who indeed various women would ask to 
dance or he'd be asking the new young women dancers and confusing them 
horribly).


One thing I'm noticing from the similar stories and responses is that 
all the rocks in the stream I'm hearing about are male, and it's falling 
on experienced women dancers to save the dance from them.


Is this just a problem with small sample sizes?  Has anyone encountered 
this kind of dancer, the kind who really structurally can't ever be good 
at it, spreads confusion, and yet keeps coming back, in female form?


-- Alan



On 3/6/2017 5:24 PM, Mary Collins via Callers wrote:
We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and 
ear-mind process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about 
him driving).  We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady 
dancers pair with this gentleman.  Otherwise he will ask newbies to 
dance, and often is at the end of the line, after the walk through.  
When you dance with him you have to call to him through the dance and 
guide him to where he needs to be.  This is how we have dealt with our 
own issue.


In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's workshop 
where you can address some of the issues you have seen him experience 
(i.e. the 1/2 alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter 
swing.  Play up the better never than late thing and talk about 
flourishes and how they are not really a necessary part of the dance 
experience.


the others have mentioned other ideas that are really good.

Good luck Marie!

Mary in Buffalo

“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about 
learning to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown


On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers 
> wrote:


Hi everyone,
   Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is
bad enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is
moderately challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment
and walks very stiffly which means he will often not be on time
for a figure and also often does not remember what is coming next.
  We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence
negatively impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the
experienced dancers will take one for the team and dance with him,
it is an unpleasant experience to be his partner. Unfortunately,
we always have many new dancers and having one couple not be where
they should be can really throw them off in some dances so I feel
like I have to push and pull him around to be on time, despite the
fact that it's a little rude.
   A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which
was quite accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with
similar troubles, does anyone have advice on how to deal with this
so that other dancers still have a good time yet we are nice to
this problematic dancer?
Thank you
Marie
ContraMontreal

___
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Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Mary Collins via Callers]

We have a dancer here in Buffalo that has a hard time hearing and ear-mind
process-motor response time is very very slow. (I worry about him
driving).  We have a loose house rule that the regular good lady dancers
pair with this gentleman.  Otherwise he will ask newbies to dance, and
often is at the end of the line, after the walk through.  When you dance
with him you have to call to him through the dance and guide him to where
he needs to be.  This is how we have dealt with our own issue.

In your case, you might want to invite him to your beginner's workshop
where you can address some of the issues you have seen him experience (i.e.
the 1/2 alemande instead of the 1 1/2 of the call, or a shorter swing.
Play up the better never than late thing and talk about flourishes and how
they are not really a necessary part of the dance experience.

the others have mentioned other ideas that are really good.

Good luck Marie!

Mary in Buffalo

“Life is not about waiting for the storms to pass ... it's about learning
to dance in the rain!” ~ Unknown

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad
> enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately
> challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very
> stiffly which means he will often not be on time for a figure and also
> often does not remember what is coming next.
>   We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively
> impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers
> will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant
> experience to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new
> dancers and having one couple not be where they should be can really throw
> them off in some dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around
> to be on time, despite the fact that it's a little rude.
>A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was quite
> accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar troubles,
> does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other dancers
> still have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
> Thank you
> Marie
> ContraMontreal
>
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Meg Dedolph via Callers]

A friend of mine with autistic kids shared something with me that she
learned from her kids' therapist: some people have a hard time taking
verbal direction for physical activity and do better by seeing a
demonstration.
So sometimes when I have a dancer on the floor who seems really confused, I
think about this idea. Your mileage may vary.
Anyway. Good luck.
Meg in Chicago
On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 4:58 PM Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Thanks April and everyone else, this is giving me a lot of ideas to think
> about.
> To answer your question, he does not seem to understand the "damage" he's
> sometimes leaving in his wake, he might not realize the importance of being
> on time to help the other dancers. If anyone has a gentle way to suggest to
> let him understand that it would be appreciated. But once we do that, I
> like the suggestion to include him in discussions about how to help and
> would like to do it.
>
> Unfortunately, this is a fairly small community with lots of new dancers
> every time, so I don't think we have 12 experienced female dancers, let
> alone 12 willing to dance with him and I'm not sure he's willing to dance
> with other men. I might not be the only one who is struggling to have
> empathy because I do not want to dance with him twice (he also smells
> really bad and doesn't always control the strength with which he grips my
> hand, although that might be getting better). Do you think it's better to
> concentrate our efforts at the beginning of the evening so new dancers can
> get used to contra, or at the end of the evening when dances are usually a
> little more complicated?
>
> Also, trying to articulate the problem a little better: he can swing
> reasonably, and I think circles and stars are ok if the music is not too
> fast. But I think that sometimes he does the wrong thing with confidence
> which throws people off if he doesn't have a firm, experienced partner to
> hold him back.
>
> Thanks all, I already have lots of material to think about, but keep it
> coming!
> Marie
> ContraMontreal
>
> On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 5:30 PM, April Blum via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> You want to avoid letting him pair up with a new dancer, so you might
> indeed want to have a confidential chat with the regular ladies who are
> also good leads, and see if they are willing to take turns dancing with him.
> Some techniques for his partners: Walk the swing and stop early to face
> in. Turn 1.5 allemandes into half allemandes or pull bys. Turn free moves
> into "with hands" moves where possible. Ask your caller to suggest that
> everyone try a hey with hands if the timing is tight. Or turn a hey for
> four into a hey for three, with you and he acting as a unit. That works for
> half heys as well. Just cross the set together, dodging the other two
> dancers. If he's hopelessly behind each time through, consider skipping B2
> and set up for the next repetition. Maybe concentrate on getting him
> comfortable with the first part of the sequence.
> Is he aware of his "rock in the stream of the dance" status? The answer to
> this might affect how much adaptation he will accept.
> Do keep in mind that it takes a certain amount of courage to try something
> new and challenging, particularly as an individual rather than a couple.
> And one or more of the organizers should chat with him at the break. It
> would be useful to find out if he has a physical challenge. On Mar 6, 2017
> 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad
> enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately
> challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very
> stiffly which means he will often not be on time for a figure and also
> often does not remember what is coming next.
> >   We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively
> impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers
> will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant
> experience to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new
> dancers and having one couple not be where they should be can really throw
> them off in some dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around
> to be on time, despite the fact that it's a little rude.
> >A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was
> quite accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar
> troubles, does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other
> dancers still have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
> > Thank you
> > Marie
> > ContraMontreal
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>
>
> 

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers]

Thanks April and everyone else, this is giving me a lot of ideas to think
about.
To answer your question, he does not seem to understand the "damage" he's
sometimes leaving in his wake, he might not realize the importance of being
on time to help the other dancers. If anyone has a gentle way to suggest to
let him understand that it would be appreciated. But once we do that, I
like the suggestion to include him in discussions about how to help and
would like to do it.

Unfortunately, this is a fairly small community with lots of new dancers
every time, so I don't think we have 12 experienced female dancers, let
alone 12 willing to dance with him and I'm not sure he's willing to dance
with other men. I might not be the only one who is struggling to have
empathy because I do not want to dance with him twice (he also smells
really bad and doesn't always control the strength with which he grips my
hand, although that might be getting better). Do you think it's better to
concentrate our efforts at the beginning of the evening so new dancers can
get used to contra, or at the end of the evening when dances are usually a
little more complicated?

Also, trying to articulate the problem a little better: he can swing
reasonably, and I think circles and stars are ok if the music is not too
fast. But I think that sometimes he does the wrong thing with confidence
which throws people off if he doesn't have a firm, experienced partner to
hold him back.

Thanks all, I already have lots of material to think about, but keep it
coming!
Marie
ContraMontreal

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 5:30 PM, April Blum via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> You want to avoid letting him pair up with a new dancer, so you might
> indeed want to have a confidential chat with the regular ladies who are
> also good leads, and see if they are willing to take turns dancing with him.
> Some techniques for his partners: Walk the swing and stop early to face
> in. Turn 1.5 allemandes into half allemandes or pull bys. Turn free moves
> into "with hands" moves where possible. Ask your caller to suggest that
> everyone try a hey with hands if the timing is tight. Or turn a hey for
> four into a hey for three, with you and he acting as a unit. That works for
> half heys as well. Just cross the set together, dodging the other two
> dancers. If he's hopelessly behind each time through, consider skipping B2
> and set up for the next repetition. Maybe concentrate on getting him
> comfortable with the first part of the sequence.
> Is he aware of his "rock in the stream of the dance" status? The answer to
> this might affect how much adaptation he will accept.
> Do keep in mind that it takes a certain amount of courage to try something
> new and challenging, particularly as an individual rather than a couple.
> And one or more of the organizers should chat with him at the break. It
> would be useful to find out if he has a physical challenge. On Mar 6, 2017
> 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers  net> wrote:
> >
> > Hi everyone,
> >Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad
> enough that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately
> challenging. He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very
> stiffly which means he will often not be on time for a figure and also
> often does not remember what is coming next.
> >   We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively
> impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers
> will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant
> experience to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new
> dancers and having one couple not be where they should be can really throw
> them off in some dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around
> to be on time, despite the fact that it's a little rude.
> >A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was
> quite accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar
> troubles, does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other
> dancers still have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
> > Thank you
> > Marie
> > ContraMontreal
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[April Blum via Callers]

You want to avoid letting him pair up with a new dancer, so you might indeed 
want to have a confidential chat with the regular ladies who are also good 
leads, and see if they are willing to take turns dancing with him. 
Some techniques for his partners: Walk the swing and stop early to face in. 
Turn 1.5 allemandes into half allemandes or pull bys. Turn free moves into 
"with hands" moves where possible. Ask your caller to suggest that everyone try 
a hey with hands if the timing is tight. Or turn a hey for four into a hey for 
three, with you and he acting as a unit. That works for half heys as well. Just 
cross the set together, dodging the other two dancers. If he's hopelessly 
behind each time through, consider skipping B2 and set up for the next 
repetition. Maybe concentrate on getting him comfortable with the first part of 
the sequence. 
Is he aware of his "rock in the stream of the dance" status? The answer to this 
might affect how much adaptation he will accept. 
Do keep in mind that it takes a certain amount of courage to try something new 
and challenging, particularly as an individual rather than a couple. 
And one or more of the organizers should chat with him at the break. It would 
be useful to find out if he has a physical challenge. On Mar 6, 2017 3:13 PM, 
Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers  wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>    Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad enough 
> that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately challenging. 
> He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very stiffly which means 
> he will often not be on time for a figure and also often does not remember 
> what is coming next.
>   We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively 
> impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers 
> will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant experience 
> to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new dancers and having 
> one couple not be where they should be can really throw them off in some 
> dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around to be on time, 
> despite the fact that it's a little rude.
>    A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was quite 
> accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar troubles, 
> does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other dancers still 
> have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
> Thank you
> Marie
> ContraMontreal

Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Donna Hunt via Callers]

You might consider including the new dancer into your discussion.  He "seems to 
have some kind of impairment and walks very stiffly", I think he might be the 
best one to tell you the things that he has difficulty with and then you can 
brainstorm how best to assist him.  Having someone in the discussion who is 
good a modifying the dance would be great.  

Certainly doing 1/2 instead of 1 1/2 for Allemandes, down the hall in small 
steps and turning sooner if possible, circling using that dancer as a "pivot 
point" so the other dancers circle around him, heys can be shortened or use 
hands to give leverage.  

You might ask this dancer to sit out a few dances an evening citing his 
challenges and then coordinate with the caller for the evening planning those 
dances that include full stars progressing to full stars or other moves that 
require a full count piece.

 

 My guess is that if he will work with you (and you want him to remain a member 
of the community) then brainstorming and giving tips from the mic will help the 
community adapt to include him. 



Donna Hunt




 

 

-Original Message-
From: Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers 
To: Caller's discussion list 
Sent: Mon, Mar 6, 2017 3:17 pm
Subject: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?






Hi everyone,

   Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad enough 
that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately challenging. 
He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very stiffly which means he 
will often not be on time for a figure and also often does not remember what is 
coming next.

  We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively impacts 
other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers will take 
one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant experience to be his 
partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new dancers and having one couple 
not be where they should be can really throw them off in some dances so I feel 
like I have to push and pull him around to be on time, despite the fact that 
it's a little rude.

   A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was quite 
accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar troubles, does 
anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other dancers still have a 
good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?

Thank you

Marie

ContraMontreal

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Re: [Callers] What to do with a really bad new dancer?

[Linda Leslie via Callers]

A while back, we had the same sort of challenge at one of the local dances.  
About a dozen of us from the dance community got together to problem solve. The 
group decided that if one of us made sure that the challenged dancer had a 
partner for each dance, that it would be good for the entire dance. The 
less-than-satisfying dance experience would only last for 10 minutes or so, but 
improve the experience for the rest of folks in the set. Our reward: the 
continuous smile on the challenged dancer’s face more than made up for any 
perceived loss of “quality” dance time.  This gesture made a lot of difference, 
making the dance more pleasurable for all involved. 

As for the techniques used to help the dancer be on time: asking directly for 
permission to help, and how best to help might show the dancer that you care 
enough about his feelings and experience to ask. 

Warm wishes for happy problem solving for your dance community, Linda

On Mar 6, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Marie-Michèle Fournier via Callers 
 wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>Lately a new dancer has started coming to our dance and he is bad enough 
> that he will often make the set break if the dance is moderately challenging. 
> He seems to have some kind of impairment and walks very stiffly which means 
> he will often not be on time for a figure and also often does not remember 
> what is coming next.
>   We want to be inclusive but at the same time his presence negatively 
> impacts other dancers in his set and while some of the experienced dancers 
> will take one for the team and dance with him, it is an unpleasant experience 
> to be his partner. Unfortunately, we always have many new dancers and having 
> one couple not be where they should be can really throw them off in some 
> dances so I feel like I have to push and pull him around to be on time, 
> despite the fact that it's a little rude.
>A recent caller to our dance called him a "speed bump" which was quite 
> accurate. I'm sure other dances have had experience with similar troubles, 
> does anyone have advice on how to deal with this so that other dancers still 
> have a good time yet we are nice to this problematic dancer?
> Thank you
> Marie
> ContraMontreal
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net