Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk (zone-tailed hawk?)
Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion and sorry for my silence (busy with life). Here’s a bit more information. First of all, I’ve added a few more photos, of even worse quality :-/ Here’s an updated link … https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nm25xfhyarydgxg/AAAvRHHfszKtNmiLRVoy-LYWa To recap, with a bit more detail. I first heard the bird vocalize, and to me it sounded like a completely classical red-tail sound. I quickly located the bird with my naked eye (90% sure it was the same bird). I did not see any other raptors or TVs in the area. I stepped inside the garage to grab binoculars from the car (15 secs or so), quickly relocated the bird and began observing, still assuming “red-tail”. What I noticed first was the dark underside. I observed through the binoculars for a few minutes before asking my wife to go grab my son’s camera. As I continued watching, it vocalized again. Up until this point, I was still certain it was an unusually dark red-tail. I thought that I saw red on the upper side of the tail a few times, but I’d put about 50% confidence on that statement. When my wife brought the camera, before I began taking pictures, my view of the bird was blocked momentarily by some trees. When it emerged from behind the trees I began snapping pictures. I’d say I’m at least 90% sure that the bird I was observing through the binoculars, that I heard vocalizing, and the one I got pictures of are the same bird. I’m 99% sure there was only 1 bird in the area while I was snapping pictures. I.e. they are all of the same bird, including the one that looks like the tail is reddish. I’ve seen broad-winged hawks (though not dark morph), and I’m nearly certain it was not a broad-wing. The wings and tail seemed too long to me and the shape and flight style just didn’t seem right either. The vocalization sounded nothing like the recordings I’ve heard of broad-wings. I’ve never seen a zone-tailed hawk, but that does seem to be the one that matches best with what I saw. I don’t recall that I ever saw it flap, but I do remember thinking that it held it’s wings in a slight V and that there was something else about the way it flew that seemed “different” (helpful, right? I know). The vocalization, however, sounded more classical red-tail than the recordings I’ve heard of the zone-tailed hawk. Afterward, I was very sorry I didn’t have a better camera and that the autofocus had done such a poor job on so many of my shots. I thought I’d taken plenty that I’d have multiple good ones to help with the ID. Based on the comments and my own looking at photos, listening to sounds, etc. I’m leaning pretty strongly toward zone-tailed hawk, but would love to hear any further comments. Ray On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:32 AM, John Greenly j...@cornell.edu wrote: I have watched Zone-tailed in the SW, and they really do fly like Turkey Vultures. Everything I can see in the third picture does look very consistent with Zone-tailed (except for one thing), but if you didn't notice the flight style, it probably isn't one. The one thing is the shape of the wing trailing edge- it's a little bit bulged in the secondaries and somewhat pinched in at the body, whereas Zone-tailed usually looks very straight- see for instance the photo on the Wikipedia page of a Zone-tailed from almost the same perspective as your third picture. Was the bird flapping when you took the second picture- I would expect more dihedral for soaring Zone-tailed. I absolutely agree about the first picture- the apparent color is false, due to out-of-focus chromatic aberration. If it's a B-wing, it's doing an amazing job of disguising itself: shape and proportions don't look right at all. The tail banding pattern is very clearly visible, and not right for Red-shouldered. The sound of Zone-tailed call is more pure whistle- less screechy or scratchy- than Red-Tailed, but not so terribly different if you're not paying close attention. But, would a solitary, lost Zone-tailed be likely to be calling at all? Interesting! But I'm definitely no expert. --John Greenly On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Gary Kohlenberg wrote: Ray, I think arguments could be made for a couple species / morphs based on the backlit photos, and I have my opinion, but as you heard the bird call my bet would be whatever the vocalization indicates. I don’t know if you are solid on the calls, but to my ear the Broad-winged “p-s” and juvenile Red-tail squeals can sound similar. Red-shouldered Hawks sound completely different and the unlikely Zone-tailed even more so. Gary From: bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Dave Nutter Sent: Monday, June 16, 2014 4:32 AM To: CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk Good point about the primary barring showing at the molt. If the slaty color of the wing
Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk (zone-tailed hawk?)
Ray, one question: when you were observing through binocs, did you by any chance notice yellow feet, or see the feet clearly as showing up light-colored against the black undertail coverts? A quite noticeable feature of Zone-tailed as I remember. --John On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Ray Zimmerman wrote: Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion and sorry for my silence (busy with life). Here’s a bit more information. First of all, I’ve added a few more photos, of even worse quality :-/ Here’s an updated link … https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nm25xfhyarydgxg/AAAvRHHfszKtNmiLRVoy-LYWa To recap, with a bit more detail. I first heard the bird vocalize, and to me it sounded like a completely classical red-tail sound. I quickly located the bird with my naked eye (90% sure it was the same bird). I did not see any other raptors or TVs in the area. I stepped inside the garage to grab binoculars from the car (15 secs or so), quickly relocated the bird and began observing, still assuming “red-tail”. What I noticed first was the dark underside. I observed through the binoculars for a few minutes before asking my wife to go grab my son’s camera. As I continued watching, it vocalized again. Up until this point, I was still certain it was an unusually dark red-tail. I thought that I saw red on the upper side of the tail a few times, but I’d put about 50% confidence on that statement. When my wife brought the camera, before I began taking pictures, my view of the bird was blocked momentarily by some trees. When it emerged from behind the trees I began snapping pictures. I’d say I’m at least 90% sure that the bird I was observing through the binoculars, that I heard vocalizing, and the one I got pictures of are the same bird. I’m 99% sure there was only 1 bird in the area while I was snapping pictures. I.e. they are all of the same bird, including the one that looks like the tail is reddish. I’ve seen broad-winged hawks (though not dark morph), and I’m nearly certain it was not a broad-wing. The wings and tail seemed too long to me and the shape and flight style just didn’t seem right either. The vocalization sounded nothing like the recordings I’ve heard of broad-wings. I’ve never seen a zone-tailed hawk, but that does seem to be the one that matches best with what I saw. I don’t recall that I ever saw it flap, but I do remember thinking that it held it’s wings in a slight V and that there was something else about the way it flew that seemed “different” (helpful, right? I know). The vocalization, however, sounded more classical red-tail than the recordings I’ve heard of the zone-tailed hawk. Afterward, I was very sorry I didn’t have a better camera and that the autofocus had done such a poor job on so many of my shots. I thought I’d taken plenty that I’d have multiple good ones to help with the ID. Based on the comments and my own looking at photos, listening to sounds, etc. I’m leaning pretty strongly toward zone-tailed hawk, but would love to hear any further comments. Ray On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:32 AM, John Greenly j...@cornell.edu wrote: I have watched Zone-tailed in the SW, and they really do fly like Turkey Vultures. Everything I can see in the third picture does look very consistent with Zone-tailed (except for one thing), but if you didn't notice the flight style, it probably isn't one. The one thing is the shape of the wing trailing edge- it's a little bit bulged in the secondaries and somewhat pinched in at the body, whereas Zone-tailed usually looks very straight- see for instance the photo on the Wikipedia page of a Zone-tailed from almost the same perspective as your third picture. Was the bird flapping when you took the second picture- I would expect more dihedral for soaring Zone-tailed. I absolutely agree about the first picture- the apparent color is false, due to out-of-focus chromatic aberration. If it's a B-wing, it's doing an amazing job of disguising itself: shape and proportions don't look right at all. The tail banding pattern is very clearly visible, and not right for Red-shouldered. The sound of Zone-tailed call is more pure whistle- less screechy or scratchy- than Red-Tailed, but not so terribly different if you're not paying close attention. But, would a solitary, lost Zone-tailed be likely to be calling at all? Interesting! But I'm definitely no expert. --John Greenly On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Gary Kohlenberg wrote: Ray, I think arguments could be made for a couple species / morphs based on the backlit photos, and I have my opinion, but as you heard the bird call my bet would be whatever the vocalization indicates. I don’t know if you are solid on the calls, but to my ear the Broad-winged “p-s” and juvenile Red-tail squeals can sound similar. Red-shouldered Hawks sound completely different and the unlikely
Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk (zone-tailed hawk?)
It is not something that I noticed, but I didn’t look for it specifically either. Ray On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:40 PM, John Greenly j...@cornell.edu wrote: Ray, one question: when you were observing through binocs, did you by any chance notice yellow feet, or see the feet clearly as showing up light-colored against the black undertail coverts? A quite noticeable feature of Zone-tailed as I remember. --John On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Ray Zimmerman wrote: Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion and sorry for my silence (busy with life). Here’s a bit more information. First of all, I’ve added a few more photos, of even worse quality :-/ Here’s an updated link … https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nm25xfhyarydgxg/AAAvRHHfszKtNmiLRVoy-LYWa To recap, with a bit more detail. I first heard the bird vocalize, and to me it sounded like a completely classical red-tail sound. I quickly located the bird with my naked eye (90% sure it was the same bird). I did not see any other raptors or TVs in the area. I stepped inside the garage to grab binoculars from the car (15 secs or so), quickly relocated the bird and began observing, still assuming “red-tail”. What I noticed first was the dark underside. I observed through the binoculars for a few minutes before asking my wife to go grab my son’s camera. As I continued watching, it vocalized again. Up until this point, I was still certain it was an unusually dark red-tail. I thought that I saw red on the upper side of the tail a few times, but I’d put about 50% confidence on that statement. When my wife brought the camera, before I began taking pictures, my view of the bird was blocked momentarily by some trees. When it emerged from behind the trees I began snapping pictures. I’d say I’m at least 90% sure that the bird I was observing through the binoculars, that I heard vocalizing, and the one I got pictures of are the same bird. I’m 99% sure there was only 1 bird in the area while I was snapping pictures. I.e. they are all of the same bird, including the one that looks like the tail is reddish. I’ve seen broad-winged hawks (though not dark morph), and I’m nearly certain it was not a broad-wing. The wings and tail seemed too long to me and the shape and flight style just didn’t seem right either. The vocalization sounded nothing like the recordings I’ve heard of broad-wings. I’ve never seen a zone-tailed hawk, but that does seem to be the one that matches best with what I saw. I don’t recall that I ever saw it flap, but I do remember thinking that it held it’s wings in a slight V and that there was something else about the way it flew that seemed “different” (helpful, right? I know). The vocalization, however, sounded more classical red-tail than the recordings I’ve heard of the zone-tailed hawk. Afterward, I was very sorry I didn’t have a better camera and that the autofocus had done such a poor job on so many of my shots. I thought I’d taken plenty that I’d have multiple good ones to help with the ID. Based on the comments and my own looking at photos, listening to sounds, etc. I’m leaning pretty strongly toward zone-tailed hawk, but would love to hear any further comments. Ray On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:32 AM, John Greenly j...@cornell.edu wrote: I have watched Zone-tailed in the SW, and they really do fly like Turkey Vultures. Everything I can see in the third picture does look very consistent with Zone-tailed (except for one thing), but if you didn't notice the flight style, it probably isn't one. The one thing is the shape of the wing trailing edge- it's a little bit bulged in the secondaries and somewhat pinched in at the body, whereas Zone-tailed usually looks very straight- see for instance the photo on the Wikipedia page of a Zone-tailed from almost the same perspective as your third picture. Was the bird flapping when you took the second picture- I would expect more dihedral for soaring Zone-tailed. I absolutely agree about the first picture- the apparent color is false, due to out-of-focus chromatic aberration. If it's a B-wing, it's doing an amazing job of disguising itself: shape and proportions don't look right at all. The tail banding pattern is very clearly visible, and not right for Red-shouldered. The sound of Zone-tailed call is more pure whistle- less screechy or scratchy- than Red-Tailed, but not so terribly different if you're not paying close attention. But, would a solitary, lost Zone-tailed be likely to be calling at all? Interesting! But I'm definitely no expert. --John Greenly On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Gary Kohlenberg wrote: Ray, I think arguments could be made for a couple species / morphs based on the backlit photos, and I have my opinion, but as you heard the bird call my bet would be whatever the vocalization indicates. I don’t know if you are solid on the calls,
Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk (zone-tailed hawk?)
Hi Cayuga birders, I have been following the discussion with interest and enjoying the back and forth. I have to admit, that my initial impressions were the same as Dave Nutter's - I thought the first photo was a red-tail and the others were of a backlit Broad-winged Hawk. I just thought the second bird looked too pale to be a zone-tailed. Anyway, I quickly did a comparison of this bird with the Zone-tailed Hawk photographed in similarly bad light in MA last month, And one Broad-winged Hawk that I selected from the internet to try, as much as possible, to match this bird. I've posted this quick comparison here: http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/dalton/HawkComparison.html Of course, looking at just a photo or two is not nearly as good as the observations of the birder in the field - which seem to be inconsistent with at least a light morph of BW Hawk. But, based on the photos alone, a few thoughts: I don't get out birding much anymore, and I've only seen Zone-tailed Hawk once before (and that was years ago), but I thought the wing shape was OK for a BW Hawk, especially one that is clearly molting. Also, the last time I was out birding locally (two weeks ago), I saw a BW Hawk that looked a lot like this bird in terms of wing molt. Plus, in my read on the photo, the bird appears to be getting lighter towards the vent, which would be consistent with an adult BW Hawk. Finally, I thought the light on the flight feathers on the wing was light coming through, not the different pigmentation that occurs on ZT Hawks (is it pigmentation? coloration? or is it more reflective? anyway...) . In reviewing photos of soaring raptors online, this translucent phenomenon seems to occur much more with BW Hawk than ZT Hawk. That plus the less-translucent, dark border to the wings would seem to be consistent with field marks for BW Hawk. Anyway, those are my two cents (which is worth considerably less, especially compared to the many excellent birders on this list). But I thought the comparison with the photo with another recent vagrant record of this hawk would be useful for some or interesting if nothing else. Looking forward to seeing if the group can resolve on an ID! Cheers, Chris Dalton Ithaca, NY On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Ray Zimmerman r...@cornell.edu wrote: It is not something that I noticed, but I didn’t look for it specifically either. Ray On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:40 PM, John Greenly j...@cornell.edu wrote: Ray, one question: when you were observing through binocs, did you by any chance notice yellow feet, or see the feet clearly as showing up light-colored against the black undertail coverts? A quite noticeable feature of Zone-tailed as I remember. --John On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Ray Zimmerman wrote: Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion and sorry for my silence (busy with life). Here’s a bit more information. First of all, I’ve added a few more photos, of even worse quality :-/ Here’s an updated link … https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nm25xfhyarydgxg/AAAvRHHfszKtNmiLRVoy-LYWa To recap, with a bit more detail. I first heard the bird vocalize, and to me it sounded like a completely classical red-tail sound. I quickly located the bird with my naked eye (90% sure it was the same bird). I did not see any other raptors or TVs in the area. I stepped inside the garage to grab binoculars from the car (15 secs or so), quickly relocated the bird and began observing, still assuming “red-tail”. What I noticed first was the dark underside. I observed through the binoculars for a few minutes before asking my wife to go grab my son’s camera. As I continued watching, it vocalized again. Up until this point, I was still certain it was an unusually dark red-tail. I thought that I saw red on the upper side of the tail a few times, but I’d put about 50% confidence on that statement. When my wife brought the camera, before I began taking pictures, my view of the bird was blocked momentarily by some trees. When it emerged from behind the trees I began snapping pictures. I’d say I’m at least 90% sure that the bird I was observing through the binoculars, that I heard vocalizing, and the one I got pictures of are the same bird. I’m 99% sure there was only 1 bird in the area while I was snapping pictures. I.e. they are all of the same bird, including the one that looks like the tail is reddish. I’ve seen broad-winged hawks (though not dark morph), and I’m nearly certain it was not a broad-wing. The wings and tail seemed too long to me and the shape and flight style just didn’t seem right either. The vocalization sounded nothing like the recordings I’ve heard of broad-wings. I’ve never seen a zone-tailed hawk, but that does seem to be the one that matches best with what I saw. I don’t recall that I ever saw it flap, but I do remember thinking that it held it’s wings in a slight V and that there was something else about the way it flew that seemed “different” (helpful,
Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk (zone-tailed hawk?)
Nice Zone-tail photo, thanks! this comparison nicely shows what I was trying to say about the straight trailing edge of Zone-tailed, no secondary bulge. Also shows the Zone-tailed's light feet showing clearly against the dark undertail coverts. Okay, I'll stick my neck out and say that even though the wing proportions look extreme, Ray's bird is a Broad-wing-- based on the second black band on the tail. Now that Chris Dalton has enlarged the photo, I'm seeing that the second black band in from the tip is as wide as the first, while in Zone-tailed the second is in all pictures I have found, and in my memory, much narrower than the first. ...but why did it call like a Red-tail...? cheers, John Greenly On 6/16/2014 3:02 PM, Christopher Dalton wrote: Hi Cayuga birders, I have been following the discussion with interest and enjoying the back and forth. I have to admit, that my initial impressions were the same as Dave Nutter's - I thought the first photo was a red-tail and the others were of a backlit Broad-winged Hawk. I just thought the second bird looked too pale to be a zone-tailed. Anyway, I quickly did a comparison of this bird with the Zone-tailed Hawk photographed in similarly bad light in MA last month, And one Broad-winged Hawk that I selected from the internet to try, as much as possible, to match this bird. I've posted this quick comparison here: http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/dalton/HawkComparison.html Of course, looking at just a photo or two is not nearly as good as the observations of the birder in the field - which seem to be inconsistent with at least a light morph of BW Hawk. But, based on the photos alone, a few thoughts: I don't get out birding much anymore, and I've only seen Zone-tailed Hawk once before (and that was years ago), but I thought the wing shape was OK for a BW Hawk, especially one that is clearly molting. Also, the last time I was out birding locally (two weeks ago), I saw a BW Hawk that looked a lot like this bird in terms of wing molt. Plus, in my read on the photo, the bird appears to be getting lighter towards the vent, which would be consistent with an adult BW Hawk. Finally, I thought the light on the flight feathers on the wing was light coming through, not the different pigmentation that occurs on ZT Hawks (is it pigmentation? coloration? or is it more reflective? anyway...) . In reviewing photos of soaring raptors online, this translucent phenomenon seems to occur much more with BW Hawk than ZT Hawk. That plus the less-translucent, dark border to the wings would seem to be consistent with field marks for BW Hawk. Anyway, those are my two cents (which is worth considerably less, especially compared to the many excellent birders on this list). But I thought the comparison with the photo with another recent vagrant record of this hawk would be useful for some or interesting if nothing else. Looking forward to seeing if the group can resolve on an ID! Cheers, Chris Dalton Ithaca, NY On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Ray Zimmerman r...@cornell.edu mailto:r...@cornell.edu wrote: It is not something that I noticed, but I didn’t look for it specifically either. Ray On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:40 PM, John Greenly j...@cornell.edu mailto:j...@cornell.edu wrote: Ray, one question: when you were observing through binocs, did you by any chance notice yellow feet, or see the feet clearly as showing up light-colored against the black undertail coverts? A quite noticeable feature of Zone-tailed as I remember. --John On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Ray Zimmerman wrote: Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion and sorry for my silence (busy with life). Here’s a bit more information. First of all, I’ve added a few more photos, of even worse quality :-/ Here’s an updated link … https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nm25xfhyarydgxg/AAAvRHHfszKtNmiLRVoy-LYWa To recap, with a bit more detail. I first heard the bird vocalize, and to me it sounded like a completely classical red-tail sound. I quickly located the bird with my naked eye (90% sure it was the same bird). I did not see any other raptors or TVs in the area. I stepped inside the garage to grab binoculars from the car (15 secs or so), quickly relocated the bird and began observing, still assuming “red-tail”. What I noticed first was the dark underside. I observed through the binoculars for a few minutes before asking my wife to go grab my son’s camera. As I continued watching, it vocalized again. Up until this point, I was still certain it was an unusually dark red-tail. I thought that I saw red on the upper side of the tail a few times, but I’d put about 50% confidence on that statement. When my wife brought the camera, before I began taking pictures, my view of the bird was blocked momentarily by some trees. When it emerged from behind the trees I began snapping pictures. I’d
