Nice Zone-tail photo, thanks!

this comparison nicely shows what I was trying to say about the straight trailing edge of Zone-tailed, no secondary bulge. Also shows the Zone-tailed's light feet showing clearly against the dark undertail coverts.

Okay, I'll stick my neck out and say that even though the wing proportions look extreme, Ray's bird is a Broad-wing-- based on the second black band on the tail. Now that Chris Dalton has enlarged the photo, I'm seeing that the second black band in from the tip is as wide as the first, while in Zone-tailed the second is in all pictures I have found, and in my memory, much narrower than the first.

...but why did it call like a Red-tail...?

cheers,
John Greenly

On 6/16/2014 3:02 PM, Christopher Dalton wrote:
Hi Cayuga birders,

I have been following the discussion with interest and enjoying the back
and forth. I have to admit, that my initial impressions were the same as
Dave Nutter's - I thought the first photo was a red-tail and the others
were of a backlit Broad-winged Hawk. I just thought the second bird
looked too pale to be a zone-tailed. Anyway, I quickly did a comparison
of this bird with the Zone-tailed Hawk photographed in similarly bad
light in MA last month, And one Broad-winged Hawk that I selected from
the internet to try, as much as possible, to match this bird. I've
posted this quick comparison here:
http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/dalton/HawkComparison.html

Of course, looking at just a photo or two is not nearly as good as the
observations of the birder in the field - which seem to be inconsistent
with at least a light morph of BW Hawk. But, based on the photos alone,
a few thoughts:

I don't get out birding much anymore, and I've only seen Zone-tailed
Hawk once before (and that was years ago), but I thought the wing shape
was OK for a BW Hawk, especially one that is clearly molting. Also, the
last time I was out birding locally (two weeks ago), I saw a BW Hawk
that looked a lot like this bird in terms of wing molt. Plus, in my read
on the photo, the bird appears to be getting lighter towards the vent,
which would be consistent with an adult BW Hawk. Finally, I thought the
light on the flight feathers on the wing was light coming through, not
the different pigmentation that occurs on ZT Hawks (is it pigmentation?
coloration? or is it more reflective? anyway...) .  In reviewing photos
of soaring raptors online, this translucent phenomenon seems to occur
much more with BW Hawk than ZT Hawk. That plus the less-translucent,
dark border to the wings would seem to be consistent with field marks
for BW Hawk.

Anyway, those are my two cents (which is worth considerably less,
especially compared to the many excellent birders on this list). But I
thought the comparison with the photo with another recent vagrant record
of this hawk would be useful for some or interesting if nothing else.
Looking forward to seeing if the group can resolve on an ID!

Cheers,
Chris Dalton
Ithaca, NY






On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Ray Zimmerman <r...@cornell.edu
<mailto:r...@cornell.edu>> wrote:

    It is not something that I noticed, but I didn’t look for it
    specifically either.

         Ray

    On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:40 PM, John Greenly <j...@cornell.edu
    <mailto:j...@cornell.edu>> wrote:

    Ray, one question:  when you were observing through binocs, did
    you by any chance notice yellow feet, or see the feet clearly as
    showing up light-colored against the black undertail coverts?  A
    quite noticeable feature of Zone-tailed as I remember.

    --John


    On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Ray Zimmerman wrote:

    Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion and sorry for my
    silence (busy with life). Here’s a bit more information. First of
    all, I’ve added a few more photos, of even worse quality :-/
     Here’s an updated link …

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nm25xfhyarydgxg/AAAvRHHfszKtNmiLRVoy-LYWa

    To recap, with a bit more detail. I first heard the bird
    vocalize, and to me it sounded like a completely classical
    red-tail sound. I quickly located the bird with my naked eye (90%
    sure it was the same bird). I did not see any other raptors or
    TVs in the area. I stepped inside the garage to grab binoculars
    from the car (15 secs or so), quickly relocated the bird and
    began observing, still assuming “red-tail”. What I noticed first
    was the dark underside. I observed through the binoculars for a
    few minutes before asking my wife to go grab my son’s camera. As
    I continued watching, it vocalized again. Up until this point, I
    was still certain it was an unusually dark red-tail. I thought
    that I saw red on the upper side of the tail a few times, but I’d
    put about 50% confidence on that statement.

    When my wife brought the camera, before I began taking pictures,
    my view of the bird was blocked momentarily by some trees. When
    it emerged from behind the trees I began snapping pictures. I’d
    say I’m at least 90% sure that the bird I was observing through
    the binoculars, that I heard vocalizing, and the one I got
    pictures of are the same bird. I’m 99% sure there was only 1 bird
    in the area while I was snapping pictures. I.e. they are all of
    the same bird, including the one that looks like the tail is reddish.

    I’ve seen broad-winged hawks (though not dark morph), and I’m
    nearly certain it was not a broad-wing. The wings and tail seemed
    too long to me and the shape and flight style just didn’t seem
    right either. The vocalization sounded nothing like the
    recordings I’ve heard of broad-wings. I’ve never seen a
    zone-tailed hawk, but that does seem to be the one that matches
    best with what I saw. I don’t recall that I ever saw it flap, but
    I do remember thinking that it held it’s wings in a slight V and
    that there was something else about the way it flew that seemed
    “different” (helpful, right? I know). The vocalization, however,
    sounded more classical red-tail than the recordings I’ve heard of
    the zone-tailed hawk.

    Afterward, I was very sorry I didn’t have a better camera and
    that the autofocus had done such a poor job on so many of my
    shots. I thought I’d taken plenty that I’d have multiple good
    ones to help with the ID.

    Based on the comments and my own looking at photos, listening to
    sounds, etc. I’m leaning pretty strongly toward zone-tailed hawk,
    but would love to hear any further comments.

        Ray


    On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:32 AM, John Greenly <j...@cornell.edu
    <mailto:j...@cornell.edu>> wrote:

    I have watched Zone-tailed in the SW, and they really do fly
    like Turkey Vultures.  Everything I can see in the third picture
    does look very consistent with Zone-tailed (except for one
    thing), but if you didn't notice the flight style, it probably
    isn't one.  The one thing is the shape of the wing trailing
    edge- it's a little bit bulged in the secondaries and somewhat
    pinched in at the body, whereas Zone-tailed usually looks very
    straight- see for instance the photo on the Wikipedia page of a
    Zone-tailed from almost the same perspective as your third
    picture.  Was the bird flapping when you took the second
    picture- I would expect more dihedral for soaring Zone-tailed. I
    absolutely agree about the first picture- the apparent color is
    false, due to out-of-focus chromatic aberration.

     If it's a B-wing, it's doing an amazing job of disguising
    itself: shape and proportions don't look right at all.  The tail
    banding pattern is very clearly visible, and not right for
    Red-shouldered. The sound of Zone-tailed call is more pure
    whistle- less screechy or scratchy- than Red-Tailed, but not so
    terribly different if you're not paying close attention.  But,
    would a solitary, lost Zone-tailed be likely to be calling at all?

    Interesting! But I'm definitely no expert.

    --John Greenly


    On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Gary Kohlenberg wrote:

    Ray,____
    I think arguments could be made for a couple species / morphs
    based on the backlit photos, and I have my opinion, but as you
    heard the bird call my bet would be whatever the vocalization
    indicates. I don’t know if you are solid on the calls, but to
    my ear the Broad-winged “p-seeee” and juvenile Red-tail squeals
    can sound similar. Red-shouldered Hawks sound completely
    different and the unlikely Zone-tailed even more so.____
    Gary____
    *From:*bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu
    
<mailto:bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu>[mailto:bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu]*On
    Behalf Of*Dave Nutter
    *Sent:*Monday, June 16, 2014 4:32 AM
    *To:*CAYUGABIRDS-L
    *Subject:*Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk____
    __ __
    Good point about the primary barring showing at the molt. If
    the slaty color of the wing linings and underside of the body &
    head is true, not just reddish which appears so dark because
    it's dull, backlit, and distant (as our usual Broad-wingeds
    appear gray instead of pink on the breast when high overhead),
    then I must admit that Zone-tailed seems possible. I think
    Red-shouldered, although darker than Broad-winged, shouldn't be
    so extensively dark, either. I'm just not familiar enough with
    Zone-tailed to be confident. ____
    --Dave Nutter____


    On Jun 15, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Rbakelaar <rbakel...@aol.com
    <mailto:rbakel...@aol.com>> wrote:____

        The photos seem to demonstrate barring on the primaries,
        more so than I would expect on even a dark phase
        Broad-wing.  The molted out feather allows this
        characteristic to be seen somewhat well.  This bird's
        proportions seem to weigh against B-wing too.  The wings
        seem long and narrow, with only a slight bulge of the
        secondaries.  Tail seems long as we'll.  The photos also
        seem to show a black body.____
        __ __
        Any of our resident experts care to weigh in?____
        __ __
        Ryan.

        Sent from my iPhone____


        On Jun 15, 2014, at 10:57 PM, Dave Nutter
        <nutter.d...@me.com <mailto:nutter.d...@me.com>> wrote:____

            I couldn't reconcile the red tail of photo 1 with the
            black and white stripes of photo 3, even though I have
            seen various effects of looking through backlit
            feathers. The reason I didn't say Red-shouldered Hawk
            is that the white tail-band appeared too wide to me
            (but this may be a focus issue, or may judgement may be
            wrong), and the white mark in the otherwise
            even-colored primaries appears to me due to a molted
            missing feather on each side, not a "window" across the
            primaries. The reason I said "the only species of Buteo
            around here" is that Zone-tailed Hawk is way out of
            range, and also is less familiar to me. My guess was
            that Zone-tailed would not look so pale on the flight
            feathers of the wings. I am open to correction on all
            points.____

            --Dave Nutter____


            On Jun 15, 2014, at 08:28 PM, Sandy Podulka
            <s...@cornell.edu <mailto:s...@cornell.edu>> wrote:____

                As you know, I'm really just a beginner at
                hawks...... but...  What about a Red-shouldered
                Hawk?  It's got the white windows and the banded
                tail. The reddish appearance of the tail could just
                be sunlight shining through brownish feathers,
                which can really play tricks on the eye. It seems
                like the distribution of light and dark on the
                underside of the wings matches that of
                Red-shouldered Hawk.

                Sandy

                At 08:09 PM 6/15/2014, Ann Mitchell wrote:

                ____

                    I agree with Dave regarding a Broad-winged
                    Hawk. Ann Mitchell

                    Sent from my iPhone

                    On Jun 15, 2014, at 5:28 PM, Dave Nutter
                    <nutter.d...@me.com
                    <mailto:nutter.d...@me.com>> wrote:


                    ____

                        I am NOT an authority on raptors, but that
                        has never stopped me from commenting
                        before, so here's my guess:

                        I think the first blurry photo looks like a
                        dark type of Red-tailed Hawk more typically
                        found out west.

                        I think the second and third photos are of
                        a different bird with a feather missing
                        from primaries on each side. The only
                        species of Buteo around here with such a
                        wide bold white stripe in the tail is
                        Broad-winged Hawk, which also shows a black
                        outline to the ends of the flight feathers
                        on the entire wing, as seen in the third
                        photo. However, dark-type Broad-winged
                        Hawks are rare, and the wing shape looks
                        too long and rounded to me, so I'm not at
                        all confident. I hope someone who really
                        knows what they are talking about has a
                        look at your photos and sets me straight.____

                --Dave____

                Nutter____


                On Jun 15, 2014, at 03:23 PM, Ray Zimmerman
                <r...@cornell.edu <mailto:r...@cornell.edu>> wrote:


                ____

                    Today around 12:30pm as I stepped outside (in
                    Eastern Heights, Ithaca) the call of red-tailed
                    hawk caught my attention and I quickly spotted
                    it circling overhead. As I grabbed my
                    binoculars, I soon realized that it was a very
                    unusual red-tail (at least very different from
                    the one’s I’m used to seeing). As you can
                    see from very bad photos linked below, it was
                    quit dark below.

                    So is this a western bird, or is this just a
                    variation I haven’t seen around here before?

                    
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t7pw5hoifjpzeey/AABcyimp4JipHTo8DwZc0r8-a

                    — Ray

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