Nice Zone-tail photo, thanks!
this comparison nicely shows what I was trying to say about the straight
trailing edge of Zone-tailed, no secondary bulge. Also shows the
Zone-tailed's light feet showing clearly against the dark undertail
coverts.
Okay, I'll stick my neck out and say that even though the wing
proportions look extreme, Ray's bird is a Broad-wing-- based on the
second black band on the tail. Now that Chris Dalton has enlarged the
photo, I'm seeing that the second black band in from the tip is as wide
as the first, while in Zone-tailed the second is in all pictures I have
found, and in my memory, much narrower than the first.
...but why did it call like a Red-tail...?
cheers,
John Greenly
On 6/16/2014 3:02 PM, Christopher Dalton wrote:
Hi Cayuga birders,
I have been following the discussion with interest and enjoying the back
and forth. I have to admit, that my initial impressions were the same as
Dave Nutter's - I thought the first photo was a red-tail and the others
were of a backlit Broad-winged Hawk. I just thought the second bird
looked too pale to be a zone-tailed. Anyway, I quickly did a comparison
of this bird with the Zone-tailed Hawk photographed in similarly bad
light in MA last month, And one Broad-winged Hawk that I selected from
the internet to try, as much as possible, to match this bird. I've
posted this quick comparison here:
http://www.eeb.cornell.edu/dalton/HawkComparison.html
Of course, looking at just a photo or two is not nearly as good as the
observations of the birder in the field - which seem to be inconsistent
with at least a light morph of BW Hawk. But, based on the photos alone,
a few thoughts:
I don't get out birding much anymore, and I've only seen Zone-tailed
Hawk once before (and that was years ago), but I thought the wing shape
was OK for a BW Hawk, especially one that is clearly molting. Also, the
last time I was out birding locally (two weeks ago), I saw a BW Hawk
that looked a lot like this bird in terms of wing molt. Plus, in my read
on the photo, the bird appears to be getting lighter towards the vent,
which would be consistent with an adult BW Hawk. Finally, I thought the
light on the flight feathers on the wing was light coming through, not
the different pigmentation that occurs on ZT Hawks (is it pigmentation?
coloration? or is it more reflective? anyway...) . In reviewing photos
of soaring raptors online, this translucent phenomenon seems to occur
much more with BW Hawk than ZT Hawk. That plus the less-translucent,
dark border to the wings would seem to be consistent with field marks
for BW Hawk.
Anyway, those are my two cents (which is worth considerably less,
especially compared to the many excellent birders on this list). But I
thought the comparison with the photo with another recent vagrant record
of this hawk would be useful for some or interesting if nothing else.
Looking forward to seeing if the group can resolve on an ID!
Cheers,
Chris Dalton
Ithaca, NY
On Mon, Jun 16, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Ray Zimmerman <r...@cornell.edu
<mailto:r...@cornell.edu>> wrote:
It is not something that I noticed, but I didn’t look for it
specifically either.
Ray
On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:40 PM, John Greenly <j...@cornell.edu
<mailto:j...@cornell.edu>> wrote:
Ray, one question: when you were observing through binocs, did
you by any chance notice yellow feet, or see the feet clearly as
showing up light-colored against the black undertail coverts? A
quite noticeable feature of Zone-tailed as I remember.
--John
On Jun 16, 2014, at 1:10 PM, Ray Zimmerman wrote:
Thanks everyone for the helpful discussion and sorry for my
silence (busy with life). Here’s a bit more information. First of
all, I’ve added a few more photos, of even worse quality :-/
Here’s an updated link …
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/nm25xfhyarydgxg/AAAvRHHfszKtNmiLRVoy-LYWa
To recap, with a bit more detail. I first heard the bird
vocalize, and to me it sounded like a completely classical
red-tail sound. I quickly located the bird with my naked eye (90%
sure it was the same bird). I did not see any other raptors or
TVs in the area. I stepped inside the garage to grab binoculars
from the car (15 secs or so), quickly relocated the bird and
began observing, still assuming “red-tail”. What I noticed first
was the dark underside. I observed through the binoculars for a
few minutes before asking my wife to go grab my son’s camera. As
I continued watching, it vocalized again. Up until this point, I
was still certain it was an unusually dark red-tail. I thought
that I saw red on the upper side of the tail a few times, but I’d
put about 50% confidence on that statement.
When my wife brought the camera, before I began taking pictures,
my view of the bird was blocked momentarily by some trees. When
it emerged from behind the trees I began snapping pictures. I’d
say I’m at least 90% sure that the bird I was observing through
the binoculars, that I heard vocalizing, and the one I got
pictures of are the same bird. I’m 99% sure there was only 1 bird
in the area while I was snapping pictures. I.e. they are all of
the same bird, including the one that looks like the tail is reddish.
I’ve seen broad-winged hawks (though not dark morph), and I’m
nearly certain it was not a broad-wing. The wings and tail seemed
too long to me and the shape and flight style just didn’t seem
right either. The vocalization sounded nothing like the
recordings I’ve heard of broad-wings. I’ve never seen a
zone-tailed hawk, but that does seem to be the one that matches
best with what I saw. I don’t recall that I ever saw it flap, but
I do remember thinking that it held it’s wings in a slight V and
that there was something else about the way it flew that seemed
“different” (helpful, right? I know). The vocalization, however,
sounded more classical red-tail than the recordings I’ve heard of
the zone-tailed hawk.
Afterward, I was very sorry I didn’t have a better camera and
that the autofocus had done such a poor job on so many of my
shots. I thought I’d taken plenty that I’d have multiple good
ones to help with the ID.
Based on the comments and my own looking at photos, listening to
sounds, etc. I’m leaning pretty strongly toward zone-tailed hawk,
but would love to hear any further comments.
Ray
On Jun 16, 2014, at 11:32 AM, John Greenly <j...@cornell.edu
<mailto:j...@cornell.edu>> wrote:
I have watched Zone-tailed in the SW, and they really do fly
like Turkey Vultures. Everything I can see in the third picture
does look very consistent with Zone-tailed (except for one
thing), but if you didn't notice the flight style, it probably
isn't one. The one thing is the shape of the wing trailing
edge- it's a little bit bulged in the secondaries and somewhat
pinched in at the body, whereas Zone-tailed usually looks very
straight- see for instance the photo on the Wikipedia page of a
Zone-tailed from almost the same perspective as your third
picture. Was the bird flapping when you took the second
picture- I would expect more dihedral for soaring Zone-tailed. I
absolutely agree about the first picture- the apparent color is
false, due to out-of-focus chromatic aberration.
If it's a B-wing, it's doing an amazing job of disguising
itself: shape and proportions don't look right at all. The tail
banding pattern is very clearly visible, and not right for
Red-shouldered. The sound of Zone-tailed call is more pure
whistle- less screechy or scratchy- than Red-Tailed, but not so
terribly different if you're not paying close attention. But,
would a solitary, lost Zone-tailed be likely to be calling at all?
Interesting! But I'm definitely no expert.
--John Greenly
On Jun 16, 2014, at 10:22 AM, Gary Kohlenberg wrote:
Ray,____
I think arguments could be made for a couple species / morphs
based on the backlit photos, and I have my opinion, but as you
heard the bird call my bet would be whatever the vocalization
indicates. I don’t know if you are solid on the calls, but to
my ear the Broad-winged “p-seeee” and juvenile Red-tail squeals
can sound similar. Red-shouldered Hawks sound completely
different and the unlikely Zone-tailed even more so.____
Gary____
*From:*bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu
<mailto:bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu>[mailto:bounce-116290980-3493...@list.cornell.edu]*On
Behalf Of*Dave Nutter
*Sent:*Monday, June 16, 2014 4:32 AM
*To:*CAYUGABIRDS-L
*Subject:*Re: [cayugabirds-l] dark red-tailed hawk____
__ __
Good point about the primary barring showing at the molt. If
the slaty color of the wing linings and underside of the body &
head is true, not just reddish which appears so dark because
it's dull, backlit, and distant (as our usual Broad-wingeds
appear gray instead of pink on the breast when high overhead),
then I must admit that Zone-tailed seems possible. I think
Red-shouldered, although darker than Broad-winged, shouldn't be
so extensively dark, either. I'm just not familiar enough with
Zone-tailed to be confident. ____
--Dave Nutter____
On Jun 15, 2014, at 11:28 PM, Rbakelaar <rbakel...@aol.com
<mailto:rbakel...@aol.com>> wrote:____
The photos seem to demonstrate barring on the primaries,
more so than I would expect on even a dark phase
Broad-wing. The molted out feather allows this
characteristic to be seen somewhat well. This bird's
proportions seem to weigh against B-wing too. The wings
seem long and narrow, with only a slight bulge of the
secondaries. Tail seems long as we'll. The photos also
seem to show a black body.____
__ __
Any of our resident experts care to weigh in?____
__ __
Ryan.
Sent from my iPhone____
On Jun 15, 2014, at 10:57 PM, Dave Nutter
<nutter.d...@me.com <mailto:nutter.d...@me.com>> wrote:____
I couldn't reconcile the red tail of photo 1 with the
black and white stripes of photo 3, even though I have
seen various effects of looking through backlit
feathers. The reason I didn't say Red-shouldered Hawk
is that the white tail-band appeared too wide to me
(but this may be a focus issue, or may judgement may be
wrong), and the white mark in the otherwise
even-colored primaries appears to me due to a molted
missing feather on each side, not a "window" across the
primaries. The reason I said "the only species of Buteo
around here" is that Zone-tailed Hawk is way out of
range, and also is less familiar to me. My guess was
that Zone-tailed would not look so pale on the flight
feathers of the wings. I am open to correction on all
points.____
--Dave Nutter____
On Jun 15, 2014, at 08:28 PM, Sandy Podulka
<s...@cornell.edu <mailto:s...@cornell.edu>> wrote:____
As you know, I'm really just a beginner at
hawks...... but... What about a Red-shouldered
Hawk? It's got the white windows and the banded
tail. The reddish appearance of the tail could just
be sunlight shining through brownish feathers,
which can really play tricks on the eye. It seems
like the distribution of light and dark on the
underside of the wings matches that of
Red-shouldered Hawk.
Sandy
At 08:09 PM 6/15/2014, Ann Mitchell wrote:
____
I agree with Dave regarding a Broad-winged
Hawk. Ann Mitchell
Sent from my iPhone
On Jun 15, 2014, at 5:28 PM, Dave Nutter
<nutter.d...@me.com
<mailto:nutter.d...@me.com>> wrote:
____
I am NOT an authority on raptors, but that
has never stopped me from commenting
before, so here's my guess:
I think the first blurry photo looks like a
dark type of Red-tailed Hawk more typically
found out west.
I think the second and third photos are of
a different bird with a feather missing
from primaries on each side. The only
species of Buteo around here with such a
wide bold white stripe in the tail is
Broad-winged Hawk, which also shows a black
outline to the ends of the flight feathers
on the entire wing, as seen in the third
photo. However, dark-type Broad-winged
Hawks are rare, and the wing shape looks
too long and rounded to me, so I'm not at
all confident. I hope someone who really
knows what they are talking about has a
look at your photos and sets me straight.____
--Dave____
Nutter____
On Jun 15, 2014, at 03:23 PM, Ray Zimmerman
<r...@cornell.edu <mailto:r...@cornell.edu>> wrote:
____
Today around 12:30pm as I stepped outside (in
Eastern Heights, Ithaca) the call of red-tailed
hawk caught my attention and I quickly spotted
it circling overhead. As I grabbed my
binoculars, I soon realized that it was a very
unusual red-tail (at least very different from
the one’s I’m used to seeing). As you can
see from very bad photos linked below, it was
quit dark below.
So is this a western bird, or is this just a
variation I haven’t seen around here before?
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/t7pw5hoifjpzeey/AABcyimp4JipHTo8DwZc0r8-a
— Ray
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