Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-16 Thread Kay Diederichs
Am 20:59, schrieb James Holton: ... The loss of the 1/r^2 term arises because diffraction from a crystal is compressed into very sharp peaks. That is, as the crystal gets larger, the interference fringes (spots) get smaller, but the total number of scattered photons must remain constant. The

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-15 Thread James Holton
Actually, people forget the 1/r term because it is gone by the end of Chapter 6 of Woolfson. Yes, it is true that, for the single reference electron the scattered intensity falls off with the inverse square law of distance (r) and, hence, the amplitude falls off with 1/r. However, the units

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Tim Gruene
Hi Bernhard, On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 08:07:04PM -0700, Bernhard Rupp wrote: [...] BR PS: Just in case it might come up - there is NO destructive interference between F000 and direct beam - the required coherence that leads to extinction/summation of 'partial waves' is limited to a single

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-14 Thread Ian Tickle
PM Please respond to William Scott wgsc...@chemistry.ucsc.edu To CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK cc Subject [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question: Why is it that F in this picture isn't

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-14 Thread Tim Gruene
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK cc Subject [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question: Why is it that F in this picture isn't required to be vertical (purely imaginary)? http://www.doe

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-14 Thread Ian Tickle
@JISCMAIL.AC.UK cc Subject [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question: Why is it that F in this picture isn't required to be vertical (purely imaginary)? http

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Ed Pozharski
On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:41 +0200, Tim Gruene wrote: This sounds as though you are saying that a single photon interacts with several electrons to give rise to a reflection. Not only with several - it shouldn't be much of an exaggeration to say that the photon senses all the electrons in the

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Dale Tronrud
, October 13, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I wanted to ask, which hopefully is right

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Jacob Keller
...@uoxray.uoregon.edu To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2010 11:28 AM Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another) Just to throw a monkey wrench in here (and not really relevant to the original question)... I've understood that, just as the real part

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Bart Hazes
Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I wanted to ask, which hopefully is right. On Oct 13, 2010, at 1:14 PM

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Lijun Liu
To:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread William G. Scott
On Oct 14, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Ed Pozharski wrote: On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:41 +0200, Tim Gruene wrote: This sounds as though you are saying that a single photon interacts with several electrons to give rise to a reflection. Not only with several - it shouldn't be much of an exaggeration to

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Ethan Merritt
] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I wanted to ask, which hopefully is right. On Oct 13, 2010, at 1:14 PM, SHEPARD William

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Ethan Merritt
...@chemistry.ucsc.edu To:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Bart Hazes
On 10-10-14 01:34 PM, Ethan Merritt wrote: ... The contribution from normal scattering, f0, is strong at low resolution but becomes weaker as the scattering angle increases. The contribution from anomalous scattering, f' + f", is constant at all scattering angles. ... My

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Ethan Merritt
On Thursday, October 14, 2010 01:18:04 pm Bart Hazes wrote: On 10-10-14 01:34 PM, Ethan Merritt wrote: ... The contribution from normal scattering, f0, is strong at low resolution but becomes weaker as the scattering angle increases. The contribution from anomalous scattering, f'

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Jacob Keller
I have always found this angle independence difficult. Why, if the anomalous scattering is truly angle-independent, don't we just put the detector at 90 or 180deg and solve the HA substructure by Patterson or direct methods using the pure anomalous scattering intensities? Or why don't we see

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Tim Gruene
Good evening citizens and non-citizens, On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 08:21:19AM -0700, William G. Scott wrote: On Oct 14, 2010, at 7:40 AM, Ed Pozharski wrote: On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:41 +0200, Tim Gruene wrote: This sounds as though you are saying that a single photon interacts with several

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Tim Gruene
On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 04:28:26PM -0500, Jacob Keller wrote: I have always found this angle independence difficult. Why, if the anomalous scattering is truly angle-independent, don't we just put the detector at 90 or 180deg and solve the HA substructure by Patterson or direct methods using

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Ed Pozharski
On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 23:31 +0200, Tim Gruene wrote: you observe that each photon decides on exactly one slit that it goes through. That is if you observe which slit it goes through. -- I'd jump in myself, if I weren't so good at whistling. Julian, King of

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread Ethan Merritt
On Thursday, October 14, 2010 02:28:26 pm Jacob Keller wrote: I have always found this angle independence difficult. Why, if the anomalous scattering is truly angle-independent, don't we just put the detector at 90 or 180deg and solve the HA substructure by Patterson or direct methods using

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread William G. Scott
On Oct 14, 2010, at 2:31 PM, Tim Gruene wrote: I would like to understand how the notion of a photon being scattered from all electrons in the crystal lattice explains the observation that radiation damage is localised to the size of the beam so that we can move the crystal along and shoot

Re: [ccp4bb] [QUAR] Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-14 Thread William G. Scott
On Oct 14, 2010, at 2:28 PM, Jacob Keller wrote: I have always found this angle independence difficult. Why, if the anomalous scattering is truly angle-independent, don't we just put the detector at 90 or 180deg and solve the HA substructure by Patterson or direct methods using the pure

[ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread William Scott
Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question: Why is it that F in this picture isn't required to be vertical (purely imaginary)? http://www.doe-mbi.ucla.edu/~sawaya/tutorials/Phasing/phase.gif (Similarly in the Harker diagram of the intersection of

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread Bernhard Rupp
...@jiscmail.ac.uk] On Behalf Of William Scott Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 10:48 AM To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Subject: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question: Why is it that F in this picture isn't

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread Tim Gruene
Hi Bill, the picture does not show Fa (as a vector), but the vector addition Fp+Fa+iFa (it might be a naming convention of the picture to write Fa instead of iFa, but that's a matter of taste really). Furthermore Fa has the same phase as Fa plus the contribution of i, which corresponds to the

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread Daniel Anderson
The Fa vector is always a 90 degree left turn from the Fa vector. For a centrosymmetric heavy atom substructure such as 1 mercury site in P21, the Fa vector would point straight up or down. hope that helps, Citizen Dan William Scott wrote: Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread Jacob Keller
!)? Jacob - Original Message - From: William Scott wgsc...@chemistry.ucsc.edu To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 12:48 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an embarrassingly simple MAD phasing

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread Yong Y Wang
respond to William Scott wgsc...@chemistry.ucsc.edu To CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK cc Subject [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Hi Citizens: Try not to laugh. I have an embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question: Why is it that F in this picture isn't required to be vertical

[ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread William Scott
Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I wanted to ask, which hopefully is right. On Oct 13, 2010, at 1:14 PM, SHEPARD William wrote: It is very simple, the structure factor for the

Re: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread Tim Gruene
Dear Bill, The discussion is becoming complicated because of the mixing of notations. There is a theory or model which describes the atomic scattering factor as f = f0 + f' +if from which the structure factor is calculated. That right angle that you see in the picture you sent us with that

Re: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread Lijun Liu
Bill, If I understand you correctly, the problem turns to be understanding coordinate system. The coordinate system in the plot in your original email is not a complex one but a polar coordinate system [|F| and phase (polar angle)]. In order to add the contribution of an atom with

[ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread Jacob Keller
Message - From: William Scott wgsc...@chemistry.ucsc.edu To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread William G. Scott
On Oct 13, 2010, at 4:21 PM, Jacob Keller wrote: While we are on embarrassingly simple questions, I have wondered for a long time what is the reference phase for reflections? I.e. a given phase of say 45deg is 45deg relative to what? Is it the centrosymmetric phases? Or a theoretical wave

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread James Holton
PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I wanted to ask, which hopefully is right. On Oct 13, 2010

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread Lijun Liu
, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I wanted to ask, which hopefully is right. On Oct 13

Re: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question

2010-10-13 Thread William G. Scott
On Oct 13, 2010, at 3:09 PM, Tim Gruene wrote: Dear Bill, The discussion is becoming complicated because of the mixing of notations. There is a theory or model which describes the atomic scattering factor as f = f0 + f' +if from which the structure factor is calculated. That right angle

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread Jacob Keller
, detectable but not measurable. Lijun Jacob Keller - Original Message - From: William Scott wgsc...@chemistry.ucsc.edu To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread Bernhard Rupp
Does f000 mean the direct beam? Having a hard time imagining such a miller index or the corresponding planes... No, F000 is NOT the direct beam. I may not have made that clear enough in some of my drawings and captions, and it will be emphasized in the second printing/ebook. There is in fact

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread Lijun Liu
] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer to the question I wanted to ask, which hopefully is right. On Oct 13, 2010, at 1:14 PM, SHEPARD

Re: [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question (another)

2010-10-13 Thread James Holton
...@chemistry.ucsc.edu To:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2010 3:58 PM Subject: [ccp4bb] Summary : [ccp4bb] embarrassingly simple MAD phasing question Thanks for the overwhelming response. I think I probably didn't phrase the question quite right, but I pieced together an answer