Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

One of these days, when I have time, I'll go into one of the more
bizarre COBOL implementations, involving inter-process communication
with "chains" of modules being resident either wholly or in part in one
of several mainframes or in bulk core, with comm links extending
throughout the US.

cf. "Zodiac" done for the USAF Logistics Command.   Huge failure, but oh
my stars and garters, what a project!  1500 GSA programmers, all writing
COBOL, with 70 vendor support people.  It was fun, even if it did get
Proxmire's "Golden Fleece" award for two years running...

--Chuck

Re: OT: Weller soldering irons

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 4:40 AM Doug Jackson via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> for me, the item that usually fails in the WTCP series is the switch at the
> end of the sensor.
>
> I have replaced the sensors each time, because dammit - My 40 year old iron
> sometimes just needs a new cord, or a new heater, or a new tip, or a new
> sensor.  Best iron I have ever had :-)

The element in my Weller TCP failed a couple of years ago, after 25
years on my bench and having soldered probably hundreds of thousands
of joints. I bought a replacement (not _too_ expensive) and a spare to
go in the tool cupboard. I then realised that if the replacements last
as long as the original I will never have to buy another element, I'll
be gone first!

-tony

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Boris Gimbarzevsky via cctalk]

At 16:12 05-04-20, you wrote:

On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:


I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
That never worked well

Yep.  You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)
BTW, I scanned & uploaded this last week.  Oddly relevant.
https://archive.org/details/cobolcodingform


I still have lots of them.  And Printer Output Forms.  And Fortran
Programming Forms.  And all kinds of other Programming forms.  And
Flow Chart Forms.  You know all that stuff we actually used to
engineer programs before the software engineers came along and said
we were all doing wrong.

bill


Ran into a bunch of my FORTRAN programs from over 
50 years ago as well as the obligatory flowcharts 
I would do first before writing a single line of 
code. Code written in pencil so could erase 
errors and only then would I use a keypunch for 
final version.   Also a few FORTRAN coding 
forms.  Back then, with sometimes a 48 hour delay 
between submitting my card deck and getting 
program output, it was well worth spending an 
hour or two to print out contents of cards and 
carefully check that there weren't missing commas 
and or other errors that would mean correcting 
the stupid mistake and resubmitting ones card deck.


Never got into COBOL as my main interest was 
real-time computing and so next step up was 
access to PDP-8 which had FOCAL and quickly 
learned that programming in assembler was the way 
to go.  Still like assembly language programming 
and suspect my early experience of learning to 
code in an environment where there wasn't really 
a dividing line between software and hardware 
(people would build custom boards for 
PDP-8's/PDP-11's to speed up data acquisition) 
that the biggest change I made in my programming 
style was to switch to VB as it allowed me to 
easily create the graphical interface I needed 
but still let me link to C or Assembler routines 
in my VB6 code until windoze became too locked 
down to be of any use.  Still haven't got all my 
VB6 programs running under Wine on Linux but at least Linux has FORTRAN and C.


Part of what I've noticed is that I can't sit 
down at a keyboard and write code (as one is 
supposed to do nowadays) and it turns into a 
total mess.  I still use flowcharts when I'm 
dealing with tricky code and the nice thing about 
flowcharts is that one can easily create a 
hardware state machine from them.  Was nice in 
1970's, but now a Propeller chip, even using 
interperted Spin code, works far faster than the 
TTL state machines I used to make.  Other 
paleo-programmer related deficits include being 
totally unable to use RDB and still make use of 
linked lists and hash tables to create my 
databases as have been doing this for 50 
years.  Software Tools was probably the most 
important book I read in 1983 as it got me out of 
my rut of writing a massive FORTRAN program to do 
a specific task that I'd have no idea how to 
modify even 6 months later to small useful tools 
that could be strung together.  Back then 
engineers I worked with would have total disdain 
for Comp-Sci types who would still be working out 
their code indentation scheme while we would 
already be using a quickly written throwaway 
program to perform a particular task.


The other thing I should bring up is that my wife 
is after me to get rid of a lot of my old 
books.  While rumaging through the attic of my 
shop found boxes of old computer books which I'd 
like to keep but have been told that if I haven't 
looked at them in 15 years that it's unlikely I 
will in future.  Will check in see if some of 
them have been scanned onto bitsavers or other 
sites but have 68000 programming books, 6502 and 
other microprocessor related books as well as 
lots of Mac books when I just had to get into the 
guts of a Mac to do what I wanted.  Have a number 
of PDP-11 Unibus cards which likely won't use and 
will have to get all of that sorted out.  Once 
have a list of what I've got will post it on my 
web site.  I live in Kamloops, BC if there's 
anyone on this list who lives close by who's interested.

Re: OT: Weller soldering irons

[Doug Jackson via cctalk]

for me, the item that usually fails in the WTCP series is the switch at the
end of the sensor.

I have replaced the sensors each time, because dammit - My 40 year old iron
sometimes just needs a new cord, or a new heater, or a new tip, or a new
sensor.  Best iron I have ever had :-)


Kindest regards,

Doug Jackson

em: d...@doughq.com
ph: 0414 986878

Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com
Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net

---

Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted
with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for
your own use.

Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have
been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard - for this I apologise in
advance - It's ok bec we don* nee* accu tex* to unde** actu**
mean***.

Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the
imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or
moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the
result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which
case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal
liability. :-)

Be nice to your parents.

Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, Setup a
radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you
happy.





On Mon, Apr 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Pete Turnbull via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 06/04/2020 00:22, Jon Elson wrote:
> > On 04/05/2020 03:32 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> >> A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that
> >> need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope.
> >> It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has
> >> died.
>
> > Is the sensor a separate component?
>
> Sadly, no.  That's the first thing I thought of.  The heater and sensor
> are integral with the stainless steel shaft and I can't see any way to
> get them out without destroying the shaft.
>
> --
> Pete
> Pete Turnbull
>

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 4/5/2020 8:46 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:
> 
>>> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we
>>> be now?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.
>>
> 
> All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
> I view computer science ... teaching is what 'trending now' since
> schools promote grinding out students, not teaching real world problems.
> As for Gates, the right place at the right time, and having access to a
> main frame.

On 4/5/2020 8:46 PM, ben via cctalk wrote:> On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby
Thain via cctalk wrote:
>
>>> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we
>>> be now?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.
>>
>
> All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
> I view computer science ... teaching is what 'trending now' since
> schools promote grinding out students, not teaching real world problems.
> As for Gates, the right place at the right time, and having access to a
> main frame.
Well, I'd have called the PDP-10 a minicomputer nonetheless, but that's
just me.  ;)  Plus, he was essentially stealing campus resources for
personal aggrandizement.  Its one thing to mess around learning stuff
outside of a course setting.  Quite another to take that time, without
even asking, in order to turn a profit.  Not a fan.

As for Lots of Insipid Stupid Parentheses - I can't see that as a
beginning language.  For anyone.  Of the many many (well over a hundred)
programmers I worked with outside of a university setting, less than a
handful had even *heard* of it.



As for teaching, there are multiple needs.  One size doesn't fit all
institutions.   One is plain old programming.  That does get taught in
computer science at universities, but it really ought to be just a means
to an end: learning about how programs get written, how to compile them,
data structures, semaphores, and so on.

During my ECE & CS studies, aside from my student job, I got exposed to:
  BASIC (1 day) and FORTRAN (both while still in HS), ALGOL (2
dialects), at least 4 different assemblers/machine languages, SNOBOL,
LISP, PLUS (Programming Language for UNIVAC Systems - their PL/S),
AMINOL (You won't find anything about that anywhere any more), PLUM
(Maryland's PL/I subset).

During my student jobs I picked up 1410 Autocoder, COBOL and a tiny bit
of System/370 Assembler.

I learned about data structures up the wazoo: linked lists, stacks,
activation records for block structure languages (3 times), and heaven
only knows what else, with exposure in many courses.  Also
multitasking/multiprocessing and all that went with that in multiple
courses.

And performance measurement and management.

[FWIW, this was a time before PASCAL and databases]

I got exposed to s much stuff that picking up anything else later
was essentially trivial.  So, when I got to a 360/65-MP and had to do
Assember and COBOL no biggy.  When we had an Amdahl 470 that was fast
enough that poorly designed software had threading issues (as in an
idiot developer of a commercial product that expected to use MVS task
dispatching priority to avoid deadlocks), that was easy too.  As was
teaching my co-workers how to use a stack structure to implement a
recursive algorithm without having to do recursive subroutine calls.

I was able to explain to the other system programmers what happened when
utilization of a resource gets to me more than about 80% (think disk
queue) and how fast things go to Hades in a handbasket.  Queing theory
came in handier than heck when I was able to model the effect of
response time store and retrieve image documents and demonstrate to our
management and our vendor that we would have lines around the block -
the project got delayed a year as a result.

That is the kind of thing a Computer Science program ought to be doing.
 Teaching advanced techniques and concepts that can be used in
situations folks haven't even discovered that show up 30 years hence.
These are things that MOST ordinary programmers are not likely to learn
or even need as long as they have access to that kind of expertise.
Some call it "ivory tower", but I hope my explanation has shown that
there is MUCH more to it than that.

(Of course, there are some who learn such stuff and can never apply it,
just as there are engineers that can't apply knowledge in that domain,
either.  That isn't the fault of the university.  That is the fault of
the student or whomever pushed the student into a situation they were
either not a good fit for, or were not sufficiently prepared for.)


BUT, outside of a 4 year degree environment, ah, that is an entirely
different story.  THAT is where we should be teaching "real world
problems".  Stuff that folks can use immediately to land, keep and
succeed at a job.  How to do the things that developers encounter each
and every day.  Current technology and practices and languages that
folks are actually using every day.

Think about it 

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Sean Conner via cctalk]

It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated:
> >>Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
> >>should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."
> 
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> >I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
> >before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
> 
> well, close.
> His BASIC quote is:
> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that 
> have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are 
> mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
> 
> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might 
> Hurt":
> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> 
> I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.

  Math.

  -spc (Had some comp-sci profs who didn't like programming or computers)

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/5/2020 6:44 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote:


Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be now?




Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.



All the old programmers speak with a LISP.
I view computer science ... teaching is what 'trending now' since
schools promote grinding out students, not teaching real world problems.
As for Gates, the right place at the right time, and having access to a 
main frame.

Re: OT: Weller soldering irons

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

On 06/04/2020 00:22, Jon Elson wrote:

On 04/05/2020 03:32 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that 
need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope. 
It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has 
died.



Is the sensor a separate component?


Sadly, no.  That's the first thing I thought of.  The heater and sensor 
are integral with the stainless steel shaft and I can't see any way to 
get them out without destroying the shaft.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming
should be BASIC.  VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification,
without having had to already learn underlying structures, variable
types, how to run a compiler, etc.  After creating first program, and a
few more, in a very short time, it would then be sensible to evaluate
what kind of programming is most interesting, and switch to the most
appropriate language.  Having already created a few token programs, it
is then less onerous to learn compilers, data types, system overhead,
"ENVIRONMENT DIVISION", etc.


On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Toby Thain wrote:

Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.


LISP is a reasonable alternative starter language.
I PREFER  BASIC for beginners, because I have met a few that have 
difficulty fully understanding parentheses, and BASIC is a trivial 
transfer to FORTRAN and a few other languages in that group.

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Toby Thain via cctalk]

On 2020-04-05 8:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> well, close.
>>> His BASIC quote is:
>>> "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students
>>> that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers
>>> they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
>>> Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might
>>> Hurt":
>>> https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> 
> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
>> That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in
>> BASIC and grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...
> 
> I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming
> should be BASIC.  VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification,
> without having had to already learn underlying structures, variable
> types, how to run a compiler, etc.  After creating first program, and a
> few more, in a very short time, it would then be sensible to evaluate
> what kind of programming is most interesting, and switch to the most
> appropriate language.  Having already created a few token programs, it
> is then less onerous to learn compilers, data types, system overhead,
> "ENVIRONMENT DIVISION", etc.
> 
> 
> Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be now?
> 
> 

Sounds like you've never heard of Lisp.

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

well, close.
His BASIC quote is:
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that 
have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are 
mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might 
Hurt":

https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html


On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in BASIC and 
grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...


I still believe that the best FIRST exposure to computer programming 
should be BASIC.  VERY FIRST program should have instant gratification, 
without having had to already learn underlying structures, variable 
types, how to run a compiler, etc.  After creating first program, and a 
few more, in a very short time, it would then be sensible to evaluate 
what kind of programming is most interesting, and switch to the most 
appropriate language.  Having already created a few token programs, it is 
then less onerous to learn compilers, data types, system overhead, 
"ENVIRONMENT DIVISION", etc.



Q: If Bill Gates hadn't written a BASIC interpreter, where would we be 
now?

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb via cctalk wrote:

Yep.  You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)


. . . and a REAL programmer can write FORTRAN in any language.

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, Peter Schow via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk
 wrote:

Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are
only tangentially related!


It's funny that you say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himself
a programmer in his 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture:

"I married, and Dutch marriage rites require you to state your
professionand I stated that i was a programmer."



Claiming it doesn't necessarily make it so.

bill

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/5/20 6:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:


I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that 
transcends

the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented 
them.

That never worked well


Yep.  You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)

BTW, I scanned & uploaded this last week.  Oddly relevant.
https://archive.org/details/cobolcodingform


I still have lots of them.  And Printer Output Forms.  And Fortran
Programming Forms.  And all kinds of other Programming forms.  And
Flow Chart Forms.  You know all that stuff we actually used to
engineer programs before the software engineers came along and said
we were all doing wrong.

bill

Re: VAXmate PSU

[Mattis Lind via cctalk]

Den sön 5 apr. 2020 kl 22:18 skrev Brent Hilpert via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org>:

> On 2020-Apr-05, at 6:05 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> > I found time to follow Mattis’s suggestion today and I got some
> interesting results.
> >
> > I powered the UC3842 with about 16V from a bench power supply. I lifted
> R32 so that the transformer would not supply it. I then used an isolating
> transformer to power a variac and applied the variac to the AC inlet. I
> also used a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 and an old RD53 disk as the
> load, so there should be enough load.
> >
> > I found that I can vary the AC input up to a maximum of about 40VAC
> before the SCR triggers, the  5V output reaches about 400mV. If I raise the
> AC input more slowly, it will usually cut out before that, around 30VAC. I
> noticed that the inrush thermistors also get quite hot at these low AC
> voltages, I don’t know if this is because of the relatively low AC supply
> voltage, or if this indicates a problem of some kind.
> >
> > The voltage coming out of L3 into the T1 “bounces” somewhat. I guess
> this is because the AC input is only 20V or so, or it may be expected
> ripple from the smoothing capacitors? In the description below, the peaks
> of the bounces are used. Throughout the variation from 0VAC to 40VAC the
> duty cycle of the oscillation of the UC3842 output does not change, I guess
> because the output voltage has not reached its target value.
> >
> > With the AC input at about 25VAC the circuit seems to be stable (apart
> from the bounces mentioned above). At this supply voltage, the voltage at
> the source of Q1 reaches 2V. The current sense resistor is 1 Ohm, which
> means 2A must be flowing through it at that time.
> >
> > When the Q1 source is at 2V, the other end of R14 is at about 0.5V,
> which is just below the trigger voltage for the SCR. This makes sense
> because R14 and R15 form a voltage divider that looks to be nominally 25%
> of the Q1 source. Given the SCR nominally triggers at about 0.8V, this
> means that the current sense resistor is set to trigger the SCR at about
> 2.5A, I think. This would suggest that the duty cycle on Q1 is too high and
> causing too much current to be drawn. So presumably the feedback to the
> UC3842 is not working correctly.
> >
> > I tried setting the AC input at 120V and using a one-shot sample. Q1 is
> switched for about 30ms and then there is a spike on the SCR gate to 2V and
> it triggers. The gate voltage then remains at 1V. However, there is no
> spike across the current sense resistor (R13), so I don’t know if the spike
> is because the SCR is being turned for some other reason. There is nothing
> unusual on the anode of D19 to cause it to trigger due to avalanche
> breakdown. I got the same result when the AC input was 220V. I wonder if
> the SCR is behaving slightly differently because I have lifted R32?
> >
> > Since there might be a feedback problem, I looked at the VFB input to
> the UC3842 when doing a one-shot test at 240VAC. I can see VFB steadily
> rise over the period when Q1 switched, up to a maximum of 4V. I don’t
> really know if this is how it should behave though, but it seems to make
> logical sense. During all that time the duty cycle of Q1 does not change.
> >
> > I am not too sure where to go from here. I hope the above makes sense. I
> would appreciate any further thoughts.
>
>
> Switching power supplies are, to coin a phrase, voltage/current-ratio
> power translators.
> They will attempt to adjust the (cycle-averaged) input-current demand in
> inverse proportion to the input voltage, to meet the power demand of the
> load.
>

I am not sure what you mean here. A SMMPS mode chop up the input voltage
and feed it through a transformer. Then it can vary the duty cycle to to
regulate the output voltage in case of load variation or input voltage
variation.


>
> When you load a switching supply, and run it with a low input voltage, it
> will attempt to increase the input-current demand, either with increased
> peak current or increased duty-cycle (ON-time of primary switching
> transistor(s)).
>
> Suppose you have a load demand of 100W. At 100V input the input current
> needed is 1A.
> At 10V input, the input current needed is 10A.
>

NO, that is not how it works. I think you are confusing things. All SMPS
has a certain turn ratio. There is nothing magic with a SMPS PSU rather
than a normal iron core transformer. It does transform the primary side
voltage into a secondary side voltage based on turn ratio like any standard
iron core transfomer. But at a higher frequency since then we can have a
smaller transformer. For your calculation to hold some kind of magic duty
cycle will be needed.
The advantage of a SMPS mode PSU is that you also can very the duty cycle
and thus be able to regulate the output voltage as it is feed back to the
control circuitry.

Your statement only holds for the interval the SMPS PSU is designed to
operate in. If it is 

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

On 4/5/20 4:39 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote:

On 4/5/2020 12:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


Stories like this abound.  Wasn't California DMV running RCA Spectrolas
well into the 80s?

--Chuck



I did write some COBOL on the IBM 1410 which I worked on while I was a
student (COBOL for which was surprisingly capable), DOS/VS, OS/360, MVS,
and so on.  I found it to be:


I got my Computer Science degree in '86 and most of the programming for 
my classwork was in C and ran on BSD UNIX on a 11/750. I also worked in 
the school's computer center on a DECsystem-20.


My first job out of school was doing system software at Burroughs. The 
stuff that I was working on initially ran on all three lines of 
Burroughs mainframes sold at the time and, at Burroughs then, that meant 
it was written in COBOL. So, my first week at Burroughs was spent 
learning COBOL.


At school, everyone said that COBOL was evil. But after I had worked 
with it for a while, though I thought it was verbose, I didn't find it 
that bad to work with.


alan

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Jim Brain via cctalk]

On 4/5/2020 4:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, named 
"Outer products".  They had various math and physics related shirts, for 
example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral form).  Also 
one with the first 4 lines of the Odyssey.

For computer geeks they had quite a bunch, including this particularly cryptic 
one for COBOL programmers

  (.)(.)
IKF4084I

paul


https://www.zazzle.com/ikf4084i_c_t_shirt-235922162936523884

--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 4/5/2020 12:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/4/20 10:15 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> Stories like this abound.  Wasn't California DMV running RCA Spectrolas
> well into the 80s?
> 
> --Chuck
> 

I kind of doubt that, unless they had a version of IBM's IMS for it --
which I find unlikely, though I suppose maybe they had some of those
along side real (or compatible) IBM hardware.

I worked for Wisconsin DOT from 1975 until 2012.  Just before I got
there, they had completed their own quite competent DMBS, which was
written (in assembler) because IBM's IMS was too inefficient and ADABAS
was too expensive.  (That DBMS was still running some production when I
left, in parallel with DB2 but has since been retired.)

They learned IMS had issues when they talked with California, who told
them that at any one time a substantial part of their (either Drivers or
Motor Vehicle) database was offline at ANY time because it needed
reorganization.

I did write some COBOL on the IBM 1410 which I worked on while I was a
student (COBOL for which was surprisingly capable), DOS/VS, OS/360, MVS,
and so on.  I found it to be:

- Very cumbersome and visually inefficient
- Error prone
- Harder than heck to read

So, mildly better than Assembler, but I'll take C and its descendents
over COBOL any day for anything.  Indeed I was responsible for
introducing C into our organization in the 1980's -- I was exposed to
it, and UNIX just about the same time I went to work for WisDOT.

JRJ

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

> On April 5, 2020 at 5:28 PM Peter Schow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via 
> cctalk wrote:> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a 
> computer programmer. The two areonly tangentially related!It's funny that you 
> say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himselfa programmer in his 1972 ACM 
> Turing Award Lecture:
> "I married, and Dutch marriage rites require you to state yourprofessionand I 
> stated that i was a programmer."


He called himself a programmer in 1957, and even that description wasn't 
allowed.  I don't think the term "computer scientist" existed yet.

Another two years later, in 1957, I married and Dutch marriage rites require 
you to state your profession and I stated that I was a programmer. But the 
municipal authorities of the town of Amsterdam did not accept it on the grounds 
that there was no such profession. And, believe it or not, but under the 
heading “profession” my marriage act shows the ridiculous entry “theoretical 
physicist”!

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD03xx/EWD340.html

Will

Re: OT: Weller soldering irons

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 04/05/2020 03:32 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light 
switches that need LEDs replaced, and switched on the 
soldering iron, and ... nope. It's a Weller WP80 and it 
seems the sensor in the heating element has died.  I 
discovered that only after resetting and then dismantling 
the control unit to check it out with a DVM, of course.


Clearly I need either a new WP80 element, or a new 
soldering iron.  I could get a WSP80 for far less than the 
cost of a new element for the WP80, but I'd get the 
element faster.  So which, if any, is the better iron?  
What would you guys do?


I begrudge paying UKP 92 for a new element.  That's the 
cheapest I could find -- /half/ the most expensive price 
-- but just seems ludicrously extortionate for what 
amounts to a piece of swaged stainless steel tube with a 
short length of resistance wire and an even shorter length 
of thermocouple wire inside it.  I could buy a whole new 
solder station with more bells and whistles, albeit of a 
"lesser brand", for less.


Is the sensor a separate component?  On the EC1302 and 
several other models, the sensor is
a separate piece that fits up through the center of the 
heater and poked into the back of the
replaceable tip.  I got one for that iron years ago from, I 
think, Newark.  So, you might try

at Farnell and see if they have spares.

Jon

Re: VAXmate PSU

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2020-Apr-05, at 2:53 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so the
> UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC (no
> variac). The channels are:
> 1.Ch1. 555 timer.
> 2.Ch2. D19 Anode
> 3.Ch3. D19 Gate.
> 4.Ch4. Q1 Source.
> The picture is here:
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
> ator.png
> 
> 
> You are correct, I have mixed up the values with R30 and R31, the correct
> value is 15K. I have updated the schematic, and rearranged it to look
> diagrammatically more like a sample diagram in the TI datasheet for the
> UC3842. The updated schematic is here:
> https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
> ator.png


The links for pic and schematic don't seem to be correct.
I picked up a modified 15K+15K schematic from the blog web page but haven't 
found the scope pic.

Keep in mind at a low scope timebase resolution (long timebase) (as per your 
previous scope pics), a brief spike on R13 may not show up in the scope display 
(too brief for the discrete per pixel display interval, but it could have 
charged C18 enough where it will linger longer and show up on the display. DSOs 
can present some vagaries like this. If you haven't done so, examine the traces 
at a higher timebase resolution (it could have been recorded in the sampling, 
just not being seen).

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Peter Schow via cctalk]

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 4:18 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk
 wrote:
> Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are
> only tangentially related!

It's funny that you say this because Dijkstra explictly calls himself
a programmer in his 1972 ACM Turing Award Lecture:

"I married, and Dutch marriage rites require you to state your
professionand I stated that i was a programmer."

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[geneb via cctalk]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:


I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
That never worked well


Yep.  You can write horrible code in /any/ language. ;)

BTW, I scanned & uploaded this last week.  Oddly relevant.
https://archive.org/details/cobolcodingform

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 05/04/2020 22:27, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:

I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming,



Dijkstra was a computer scientist not a computer programmer. The two are 
only tangentially related!



I only ever managed to get to one of his guest lectures, which I found 
to be very entertaining. I'm glad I was never one of his students :-)



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/5/20 2:27 PM, Neil Thompson via cctalk wrote:
> I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
> comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
> translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
> programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
> own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
> the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
> started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
> designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
> That never worked well

Well, IIRC< Dijkstra hated the IBM 1620 too, but lots of work was done
with it.

So, there are opinions and then there is reality.  In that respect,
nothing's changed.

--Chuck

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 23:02, Paul Koning via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, 
> named "Outer products".  They had various math and physics related shirts, 
> for example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral 
> form).  Also one with the first 4 lines of the Odyssey.
>
> For computer geeks they had quite a bunch, including this particularly 
> cryptic one for COBOL programmers
>
>  (.)(.)
> IKF4084I

ILLOGICAL USE OF PARENTHESES OR RELATIONALS
   ACCEPTED WITH DOUBTS AS TO MEANING.
...?

The T-shirts are still out there, I am amused to see.



-- 
Liam Proven – Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk – gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven – Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 – ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

RE: VAXmate PSU

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
via
> cctalk
> Sent: 05 April 2020 21:18
> To: Rob Jarratt ; General Discussion:
On-Topic
> and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU
> 
> 
> Switching power supplies are, to coin a phrase, voltage/current-ratio
power
> translators.
> They will attempt to adjust the (cycle-averaged) input-current demand in
> inverse proportion to the input voltage, to meet the power demand of the
load.
> 
> When you load a switching supply, and run it with a low input voltage, it
will
> attempt to increase the input-current demand, either with increased peak
> current or increased duty-cycle (ON-time of primary switching
transistor(s)).
> 
> Suppose you have a load demand of 100W. At 100V input the input current
> needed is 1A.
> At 10V input, the input current needed is 10A.
> 
> If a supply is not explicitly designed for low supply voltages, it can
lead to
> excessive primary-side currents.
> This is why it is a bad idea to 'run up' switching supplies from a variac
or
> otherwise run them outside their specced input voltage range.
> 
> You don't say what the observed duty-cycle (ON-time) is. What would be
> expected is it's running 'wide-open' because it's trying to get enough
energy
> through the transformer to meet the load demand while gasping for
resources
> from the input because the input voltage is so low.
> 
> So from the scenario you've set up, it's difficult to discern whether the
> behaviour is normal or faulty (the scenario masks the otherwise-observed
> faulty behaviour).
> 



I have to say that when I was thinking about this, I did wonder if the
problem was that it was trying to raise the output voltage with not a lot of
input, and that therefore the duty cycle would be too high. I will remove
the variac from the equation. For the record I was seeing a duty cycle of
about 50%. In later testing at 240VAC the duty cycle does seem a lot lower.


> All this is also dependant on how large your dummy load is (as a % of the
rated
> max power output of the supply).
> 
> If you want to run at a low input voltage, remove or very lightly load the
output.
> From your schematic, there is a small load presented internally from
various
> voltage dividers around the outputs, although not all the R values are in
the
> schematic, so can't calc the current.
> If you still get the over-current SCR triggering, suspicion could lean
towards a
> short somewhere - a winding in the main transformer, secondary rectifiers
or
> caps - anything presenting an excessive energy sink to the main switcher,
> including over-sensitivity of the crowbar circuits on the secondary side.
The
> secondary crowbar circuit monitors the output voltages relative to a
reference.
> You could scope-monitor the gate of the SCR over there.


I have already done a ringing test on the main transformer, and I think that
it is OK. One of the windings does not ring very well, but I think it is one
that has few windings and supplies the on-going power to the primary side
once the PSU has started up. I have also done a bit of testing on the
secondary rectifiers, but not found anything so far. I will look at
secondary side again more closely.

> 
> The spike you mention on the primary-side SCR gate without a corresponding
> spike on R13 does seem odd, seeing scope traces pic could be interesting,
> perhaps scope the anode, the gate and R13. Possibility of some odd trigger
> fault in the SCR.

I have obtained a scope trace as you suggest. R32 is still lifted so the
UC3842 is powered by the bench PSU, but I am using the full 240VAC (no
variac). The channels are:
1.  Ch1. 555 timer.
2.  Ch2. D19 Anode
3.  Ch3. D19 Gate.
4.  Ch4. Q1 Source.
The picture is here:
https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
ator.png

> There is a small amount of filtering on the SCR-gate/over-current voltage
> divider (C18/2.2nF) so you would expect to a slightly averaged version of
the
> voltage at R13 after the voltage divider (at the cap/gate).
> 
> Aside: You have R27 & R28 at 20+20 ohms in your schematic. This is an
awfully
> low R for dropping the hundreds of supply V down to the 16V/low-current of
the
> 3842 supply. For schematic accuracy, you might double-check the value of
> those.

You are correct, I have mixed up the values with R30 and R31, the correct
value is 15K. I have updated the schematic, and rearranged it to look
diagrammatically more like a sample diagram in the TI datasheet for the
UC3842. The updated schematic is here:
https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/h7270-control-pulse-width-modul
ator.png


> 
> 10/10 for your tenacity in this repair attempt.

Thank you, I am sure it will be simple when I find the problem, and I am
learning a lot.

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Neil Thompson via cctalk]

I'm convinced that Dijksta (and anyone else who came out with similar
comments were full of horseshit.  In my opinion, it's the ability to
translate a real world "thing" into an algorithm that is the essense of
programming, and anyone who has managed to learn (particularly on their
own, as many of us did) that ability has learned something that transcends
the language (or tool) you use to implement the algorithm.  When I first
started programming professionally, we had "programmers" (or sometimes
designers) who specified the algorithms and "coders" who implemented them.
That never worked well

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 22:37, geneb via cctalk  wrote:

> On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
> > On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
> >> I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he
> died
> >> before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)
> >
> > well, close.
> > His BASIC quote is:
> > "It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that
> have
> > had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are
> mentally
> > mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."
> >
>
> That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in BASIC
> and grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...
>
> > Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might
> Hurt":
> > https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html
> >
>
> The problem is that it's not a "truth", it's horseshit, plain and simple.
> People that think so much of themselves that they consider their opinions
> to have the weight of fact just make me froth at the mouth. :)
>
> > I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.
>
> Then he should have sat down, shut up, and let the adults talk. ;)
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

I'm reminded of a T-shirt company that was around when I was in college, named 
"Outer products".  They had various math and physics related shirts, for 
example with Maxwell's equations (your choice of differential or integral 
form).  Also one with the first 4 lines of the Odyssey.

For computer geeks they had quite a bunch, including this particularly cryptic 
one for COBOL programmers

 (.)(.)
IKF4084I

paul

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[geneb via cctalk]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)


well, close.
His BASIC quote is:
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have 
had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally 
mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."




That doesn't explain the millions of kids that got their start in BASIC 
and grew up to learn skills that could wipe the floor with him...



Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might Hurt":
https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html



The problem is that it's not a "truth", it's horseshit, plain and simple. 
People that think so much of themselves that they consider their opinions 
to have the weight of fact just make me froth at the mouth. :)



I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.


Then he should have sat down, shut up, and let the adults talk. ;)

g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

OT: Weller soldering irons

[Pete Turnbull via cctalk]

A few hours ago I started looking at three "smart" light switches that 
need LEDs replaced, and switched on the soldering iron, and ... nope. 
It's a Weller WP80 and it seems the sensor in the heating element has 
died.  I discovered that only after resetting and then dismantling the 
control unit to check it out with a DVM, of course.


Clearly I need either a new WP80 element, or a new soldering iron.  I 
could get a WSP80 for far less than the cost of a new element for the 
WP80, but I'd get the element faster.  So which, if any, is the better 
iron?  What would you guys do?


I begrudge paying UKP 92 for a new element.  That's the cheapest I could 
find -- /half/ the most expensive price -- but just seems ludicrously 
extortionate for what amounts to a piece of swaged stainless steel tube 
with a short length of resistance wire and an even shorter length of 
thermocouple wire inside it.  I could buy a whole new solder station 
with more bells and whistles, albeit of a "lesser brand", for less.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."


On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, geneb wrote:
I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)


well, close.
His BASIC quote is:
"It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that 
have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are 
mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration."


Here is one copy of his 1975 paper, "How Do We Tell Truths That Might 
Hurt":

https://www.cs.virginia.edu/~evans/cs655/readings/ewd498.html

I don't know what language(s), if any, that he liked.

Re: VAXmate PSU

[Brent Hilpert via cctalk]

On 2020-Apr-05, at 6:05 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I found time to follow Mattis’s suggestion today and I got some interesting 
> results.
> 
> I powered the UC3842 with about 16V from a bench power supply. I lifted R32 
> so that the transformer would not supply it. I then used an isolating 
> transformer to power a variac and applied the variac to the AC inlet. I also 
> used a load board from a MicroVAX 2000 and an old RD53 disk as the load, so 
> there should be enough load.
> 
> I found that I can vary the AC input up to a maximum of about 40VAC before 
> the SCR triggers, the  5V output reaches about 400mV. If I raise the AC input 
> more slowly, it will usually cut out before that, around 30VAC. I noticed 
> that the inrush thermistors also get quite hot at these low AC voltages, I 
> don’t know if this is because of the relatively low AC supply voltage, or if 
> this indicates a problem of some kind.
> 
> The voltage coming out of L3 into the T1 “bounces” somewhat. I guess this is 
> because the AC input is only 20V or so, or it may be expected ripple from the 
> smoothing capacitors? In the description below, the peaks of the bounces are 
> used. Throughout the variation from 0VAC to 40VAC the duty cycle of the 
> oscillation of the UC3842 output does not change, I guess because the output 
> voltage has not reached its target value.
> 
> With the AC input at about 25VAC the circuit seems to be stable (apart from 
> the bounces mentioned above). At this supply voltage, the voltage at the 
> source of Q1 reaches 2V. The current sense resistor is 1 Ohm, which means 2A 
> must be flowing through it at that time.
> 
> When the Q1 source is at 2V, the other end of R14 is at about 0.5V, which is 
> just below the trigger voltage for the SCR. This makes sense because R14 and 
> R15 form a voltage divider that looks to be nominally 25% of the Q1 source. 
> Given the SCR nominally triggers at about 0.8V, this means that the current 
> sense resistor is set to trigger the SCR at about 2.5A, I think. This would 
> suggest that the duty cycle on Q1 is too high and causing too much current to 
> be drawn. So presumably the feedback to the UC3842 is not working correctly.
> 
> I tried setting the AC input at 120V and using a one-shot sample. Q1 is 
> switched for about 30ms and then there is a spike on the SCR gate to 2V and 
> it triggers. The gate voltage then remains at 1V. However, there is no spike 
> across the current sense resistor (R13), so I don’t know if the spike is 
> because the SCR is being turned for some other reason. There is nothing 
> unusual on the anode of D19 to cause it to trigger due to avalanche 
> breakdown. I got the same result when the AC input was 220V. I wonder if the 
> SCR is behaving slightly differently because I have lifted R32?
> 
> Since there might be a feedback problem, I looked at the VFB input to the 
> UC3842 when doing a one-shot test at 240VAC. I can see VFB steadily rise over 
> the period when Q1 switched, up to a maximum of 4V. I don’t really know if 
> this is how it should behave though, but it seems to make logical sense. 
> During all that time the duty cycle of Q1 does not change.
> 
> I am not too sure where to go from here. I hope the above makes sense. I 
> would appreciate any further thoughts.


Switching power supplies are, to coin a phrase, voltage/current-ratio power 
translators.
They will attempt to adjust the (cycle-averaged) input-current demand in 
inverse proportion to the input voltage, to meet the power demand of the load.

When you load a switching supply, and run it with a low input voltage, it will 
attempt to increase the input-current demand, either with increased peak 
current or increased duty-cycle (ON-time of primary switching transistor(s)).

Suppose you have a load demand of 100W. At 100V input the input current needed 
is 1A.
At 10V input, the input current needed is 10A.

If a supply is not explicitly designed for low supply voltages, it can lead to 
excessive primary-side currents.
This is why it is a bad idea to 'run up' switching supplies from a variac or 
otherwise run them outside their specced input voltage range.

You don't say what the observed duty-cycle (ON-time) is. What would be expected 
is it's running 'wide-open' because it's trying to get enough energy through 
the transformer to meet the load demand while gasping for resources from the 
input because the input voltage is so low.

So from the scenario you've set up, it's difficult to discern whether the 
behaviour is normal or faulty (the scenario masks the otherwise-observed faulty 
behaviour).

All this is also dependant on how large your dummy load is (as a % of the rated 
max power output of the supply).

If you want to run at a low input voltage, remove or very lightly load the 
output.
From your schematic, there is a small load presented internally from various 
voltage dividers around the outputs, although not all the R values are in the 

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

They were told to update their software.
Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
the update project.


On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Stefan Skoglund wrote:

To be fair, in this case updating your software means:

throw out the baby with the water
build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years
long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
election campagin

and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo

Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.


I notice that he is one who equates changing/updating software with 
security.



If a project is needed, and takes a long time, taking a long time is not a 
good reason to avoid getting started.


Napoleon ordered planting of a lot of trees.  I'm told that one of his 
officers didn't want to get around to it, because they would take a long 
time to grow; Napoleon said that that was a good reason to do it 
immediately.

(No, I can't find the quote)

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Nigel Johnson via cctalk]

There were a lot of differing opinions, some of which held out over 
time. Even Fred Brooks had to admit that David Parnas was right about 
data encapsulation



On 05/04/2020 15:53, geneb via cctalk wrote:

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its 
teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."


I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he 
died before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)


g.

 


--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE, MCSE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU

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You can reach me by voice on Skype:  TILBURY2591

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   Nigel Johnson 


Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[geneb via cctalk]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."


I'm pretty sure he said that about BASIC, and I'm totally bummed he died 
before I could bitch slap him over it. ;)


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

   https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Keys
I don't recall if there's anough info there to create new keys without an
original to copy. At one point I made a run of copies (after posting a call
here); I suppose I could do so again.


On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote:

The key is a Chicago GRB2: cut 215 on an Ilco S1041T.  You can use a
1041T and cut it down.


If you have a "depth and space" book and know how to "code cut" keys, 
that's enough.  Depth and space data of where the cuts go, and how deep 
the 2 1 5 cuts are is needed.


Is SOME jurisdictions, it is "illegal" to code cut a key without PROOF 
that the requester owns the lock, such as lugging the machine, or at least 
the lock in the door, and possibly also having to provide a letter on 
company letterhead!


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html


On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
to destroy COBOL because its users refused to accept that
academics know what's best for the industry.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:

Good luck with that. You could have found them easily enough in the 70s
when my folks were taking Cobol classes at the community college and
everyone was using it. Now... woof.


Edsger Dijksta said, "The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching 
should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offense."


GUILTY as charged.

I only taught it (in community college), one semester in the mid 1980s, 
when our regular colleague was on sabbatical (Jack Olson, who wrote the 
book, along with Wil Price, our department chair), 
https://www.amazon.com/Elements-Structured-Cobol-Programming-Wilson/dp/0030580528/ 
It was a good class, and I don't think that I botched it too badly.



For some types of programming, (not MY favorite types of prograamming), 
COBOL is the right choice.  I hope that they don't try to rewrite that 
project in C, which is otherwise MY language of choice.



VOLUNTEERS??!?  He could have at least offered to pay in TP.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

> On April 5, 2020 at 11:56 AM Chris Zach via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> > What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, 
> > and you watch the clip.They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do thbis 
> > work!That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could 
> > findmyself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP

It New Jersey.  They will simply make you an offer you can't refuse!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SeldwfOwuL8

RE: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[W2HX via cctalk]

Not sure about that. I worked for Pershing in Jersey City around that time. 
They were (are?) a clearing house for tens of millions of dollars' worth of 
stock and bond trades every day. Lots of cobol to be remediated still in 1999. 
Oh, and I also worked on decimalization (stocks used to be traded in 1/2, 1/4, 
1/8, and 1/16ths of a dollar)

-Original Message-
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon via 
cctalk
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:29 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-ne
>>> eds-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>>>
>>
>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>>
> 
> To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL 
> programmers.
> 

Not really.  The Y2K problem had been addressed and fixed on all the real 
computer systems long before that.


PRIMOS 23.4.Y2K.R1
--
Copyright (c) Prime Computer, Inc. 1988

A Y2K version of the OS released in 1988.

bill

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 5, 2020, at 1:27 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Chris Zach wrote:
>> That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find
>> myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
>> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP
> 
> Am I wrong in understanding the VT05 was 20 lines, and the VT50 12
> lines?

Correct.  The VT05 has 72 columns rather than 80.  And it requires fill after 
line feed at higher speeds so the scroll can finish before the next character. 

paul

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[ben via cctalk]

On 4/4/2020 10:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:

https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/



In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.



To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
programmers.

--Chuck


 Do they wear trench coats and dark glasses that nobody sees them,
and on the side they sell cheap watches from Hong Kong?
What about FORTRAN and PL/I?

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/5/20 7:24 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
> The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
> to destroy COBOL because its users refused to accept that
> academics know what's best for the industry.

COBOL was remarkable in several respects.  Structured records being one
of them. (FLOW-MATIC was actually a bit superior in that the record
structure information was separate from the program).  Strong data
typing was another one.

Grace Hopper did a remarkable job keeping the CODASYL show together,
long before ANSI took an interest in standardizing languages.

On the other hand, there's always PL/I--a language for everybody and
nobody.  Be ye FORTRAN, COBOL or Algol programmer, you can, like Burger
King, have it your way.  A co-worker from IBM once told me that the
original IBM PL/I committee was a band of misfits.

--Chuck

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Chris Zach wrote:
> That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find
> myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.
> No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP

Am I wrong in understanding the VT05 was 20 lines, and the VT50 12
lines?

By the way, I believe the VT50 character font is slightly different from
VT52.  Does anyone have the ROMs?

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and 
you watch the clip.
They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do thbis work!


That's problematic. And now that I said I know COBOL81, I could find 
myself kidnapped by NJ Govt agents and chained to a VT05 terminal.


No, no, not 12 lines per screen! HELP

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/5/20 12:22 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:




On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk  
wrote:

lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:

On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:



https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/

In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.

They were told to update their software.

Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
the
update project.



To be fair, in this case updating your software means:

throw out the baby with the water
build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years
long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
election campagin

and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo

Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.


What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and 
you watch the clip.  They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do this work!

https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html



And, if the happen to get those "volunteers", they will get
exactly what they paid for and the trade press will get even
more rocks to throw at COBOL.

bill

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:26 AM Warner Losh  wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:22 AM Zane Healy via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>> >
>> > lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
>> >> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>
>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>> >>
>> >> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>> >>
>> >> They were told to update their software.
>> >>
>> >> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
>> >> the
>> >> update project.
>> >>
>> >
>> > To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
>> >
>> > throw out the baby with the water
>> > build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
>> > and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years
>> > long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
>> > election campagin
>> >
>> > and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo
>> >
>> > Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
>> > acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.
>>
>> What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above
>> carefully, and you watch the clip.  They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do
>> this work!
>>
>>
>> https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html
>
>
> Good luck with that. You could have found them easily enough in the 70s
> when my folks were taking Cobol classes at the community college and
> everyone was using it. Now... woof.
>

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2020/04/05/new_jersey_seeks_cobol_volunteers/

Warner

>

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 10:22 AM Zane Healy via cctalk 
wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> >> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> >>
> >> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> >>
> >> They were told to update their software.
> >>
> >> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
> >> the
> >> update project.
> >>
> >
> > To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
> >
> > throw out the baby with the water
> > build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
> > and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years
> > long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
> > election campagin
> >
> > and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo
> >
> > Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
> > acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.
>
> What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above
> carefully, and you watch the clip.  They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do
> this work!
>
>
> https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html


Good luck with that. You could have found them easily enough in the 70s
when my folks were taking Cobol classes at the community college and
everyone was using it. Now... woof.

Warner

>
>

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On Apr 5, 2020, at 6:41 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
>> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
>> 
>> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
>> 
>> They were told to update their software.
>> 
>> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
>> the 
>> update project.
>> 
> 
> To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
> 
> throw out the baby with the water
> build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
> and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years
> long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
> election campagin
> 
> and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo
> 
> Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
> acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.

What’s really funny, in a sad way, if you read the article above carefully, and 
you watch the clip.  They’re looking for *VOLUNTEERS* to do this work!

https://www.latestly.com/technology/new-jersey-governor-needs-cobol-programmers-as-covid-19-response-volunteers-to-fix-unemployment-insurance-systems-gets-trolled-on-twitter-for-demanding-outdated-technology-1660018.html

Zane

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Dennis Boone via cctalk]

 > Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key
 > made?

I believe I can make these.  I'd like to have a test.  May I send you
one?

The key is a Chicago GRB2: cut 215 on an Ilco S1041T.  You can use a
1041T and cut it down.

De

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Neil Thompson via cctalk]

Yeah, my contract to a large University fixing all their COBOL stuff
finished in October 1998.

On Sun, 5 Apr 2020 at 16:29, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> >>>
> >>
> >> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> >>
> >
> > To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
> > programmers.
> >
>
> Not really.  The Y2K problem had been addressed and fixed on all
> the real computer systems long before that.
>
>
> PRIMOS 23.4.Y2K.R1
> --
> Copyright (c) Prime Computer, Inc. 1988
>
> A Y2K version of the OS released in 1988.
>
> bill
>
>

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Ian McLaughlin via cctalk]

I can confirm that about 6 months ago I gave this very information to our 
corporate locksmith, and he was able to make a key for me that works.  He 
thought it such an unusual and worthy request that he did it for free :)

Ian


> On Apr 5, 2020, at 5:39 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>From: Tom Uban
> 
>> Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
> 
> Google is your friend; here:
> 
>https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Keys
> 
> I don't recall if there's anough info there to create new keys without an
> original to copy. At one point I made a run of copies (after posting a call
> here); I suppose I could do so again.
> 
>   Noel
> 
> 

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/5/20 12:54 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

On 4/4/20 9:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:

https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/



In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.



To be fair, in 1999, everybody under the sun was looking for COBOL
programmers.



Not really.  The Y2K problem had been addressed and fixed on all
the real computer systems long before that.


PRIMOS 23.4.Y2K.R1
--
Copyright (c) Prime Computer, Inc. 1988

A Y2K version of the OS released in 1988.

bill

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 4/4/20 11:06 PM, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:

https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/




Yet another article loaded with BS denigrating COBOL.
The product of a very flawed academic system that decided
to destroy COBOL because its users refused to accept that
academics know what's best for the industry.

bill

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

This may have already been said, but I have worked with a little COBOL
within MS .NET for fun, some years ago, just to see it run.  I am sure
that's what they're intending the candidates for this job will have had
experience doing.  My guess would be it's just as important to be a .NET
guru who can update COBOL within that environment as if it was C# or ASP.
COBOL/.NET.   You would need to assign printers, add option codes, etc..
You would be working with legacy code that is solid, just needs parameter
updates stuff like that.  Networking, printer configurations and
environment tweaks.

When I ran COBOL GAP accounting jobs way back when while at DuPont, we used
TSO/JCL to set up the jobs.  Now a day .NET fulfils that layer.

I guess it is possible that an AIX server emulating an early 80's IBM
server emulating an IBM 360 is the environment is being used but I bet it
was upgraded to .NET years ago.  Not so crazy.  COBOL is great for things
like printing checks.

So if you're a .NET guru this might be a fun contract in the $200/hr's.
Hmmm...

Bill




On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 9:41 AM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> > On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> > >
> >
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> >
> > In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> >
> > They were told to update their software.
> >
> > Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
> > the
> > update project.
> >
>
> To be fair, in this case updating your software means:
>
> throw out the baby with the water
> build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
> and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years
> long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
> election campagin
>
> and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo
>
> Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
> acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.
>
>
>

Re: State of New Jersey needs COBOL programmers

[Stefan Skoglund via cctalk]

lör 2020-04-04 klockan 21:47 -0700 skrev Fred Cisin via cctalk:
> On Sat, 4 Apr 2020, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote:
> > 
> https://josephsteinberg.com/covid-19-response-new-jersey-urgently-needs-cobol-programmers-yes-you-read-that-correctly/
> 
> In December 1999, they were looking for COBOL programmers.
> 
> They were told to update their software.
> 
> Now, 20 years later, they are looking for COBOL programmers, to start
> the 
> update project.
> 

To be fair, in this case updating your software means:

throw out the baby with the water
build a completely new IT infrastructure with everything
and expect things to work badly the next 5-8 years
long enough to hinder/(be a millstone around) the governor's re-
election campagin

and then in 15 years, be prepared to redo

Pundits like this steinberg is right and wrong - they doesn't
acknowledge how expensive new fangled information technology is.

RE: VAXmate PSU

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

I found time to follow Mattis’s suggestion today and I got some interesting 
results.

 

I powered the UC3842 with about 16V from a bench power supply. I lifted R32 so 
that the transformer would not supply it. I then used an isolating transformer 
to power a variac and applied the variac to the AC inlet. I also used a load 
board from a MicroVAX 2000 and an old RD53 disk as the load, so there should be 
enough load.

 

I found that I can vary the AC input up to a maximum of about 40VAC before the 
SCR triggers, the  5V output reaches about 400mV. If I raise the AC input more 
slowly, it will usually cut out before that, around 30VAC. I noticed that the 
inrush thermistors also get quite hot at these low AC voltages, I don’t know if 
this is because of the relatively low AC supply voltage, or if this indicates a 
problem of some kind.

The voltage coming out of L3 into the T1 “bounces” somewhat. I guess this is 
because the AC input is only 20V or so, or it may be expected ripple from the 
smoothing capacitors? In the description below, the peaks of the bounces are 
used. Throughout the variation from 0VAC to 40VAC the duty cycle of the 
oscillation of the UC3842 output does not change, I guess because the output 
voltage has not reached its target value.

 

With the AC input at about 25VAC the circuit seems to be stable (apart from the 
bounces mentioned above). At this supply voltage, the voltage at the source of 
Q1 reaches 2V. The current sense resistor is 1 Ohm, which means 2A must be 
flowing through it at that time.

 

When the Q1 source is at 2V, the other end of R14 is at about 0.5V, which is 
just below the trigger voltage for the SCR. This makes sense because R14 and 
R15 form a voltage divider that looks to be nominally 25% of the Q1 source. 
Given the SCR nominally triggers at about 0.8V, this means that the current 
sense resistor is set to trigger the SCR at about 2.5A, I think. This would 
suggest that the duty cycle on Q1 is too high and causing too much current to 
be drawn. So presumably the feedback to the UC3842 is not working correctly.

 

I tried setting the AC input at 120V and using a one-shot sample. Q1 is 
switched for about 30ms and then there is a spike on the SCR gate to 2V and it 
triggers. The gate voltage then remains at 1V. However, there is no spike 
across the current sense resistor (R13), so I don’t know if the spike is 
because the SCR is being turned for some other reason. There is nothing unusual 
on the anode of D19 to cause it to trigger due to avalanche breakdown. I got 
the same result when the AC input was 220V. I wonder if the SCR is behaving 
slightly differently because I have lifted R32?

 

Since there might be a feedback problem, I looked at the VFB input to the 
UC3842 when doing a one-shot test at 240VAC. I can see VFB steadily rise over 
the period when Q1 switched, up to a maximum of 4V. I don’t really know if this 
is how it should behave though, but it seems to make logical sense. During all 
that time the duty cycle of Q1 does not change.

 

I am not too sure where to go from here. I hope the above makes sense. I would 
appreciate any further thoughts.

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

 

From: Rob Jarratt  
Sent: 29 March 2020 11:40
To: 'Mattis Lind' ; r...@jarratt.me.uk
Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' 
Subject: RE: VAXmate PSU

 

Thanks, I do have an isolating transformer as well, so I will use that. I have 
done previous tests with a bench PSU on the UC3842 and found it needs 16V to 
get going. I just checked the Technical Description and it says the minimum 
current on the 5V output is 6.4A and on 12V it is 0.17A. I checked my load 
board and it is only going to sink 3A, so I need more load as I think the IDE 
disk is not going to be much. Would insufficient load really cause it to 
shutdown so quickly though?

 

Not sure I understand your comment about “designators for networks”, is there 
an example you can point me at? One of the things I have tried to do, but 
clearly not very successfully, is to minimise the lengths of the wires.

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: Mattis Lind mailto:mattisl...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: 29 March 2020 08:51
To: r...@jarratt.me.uk  
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> >
Subject: Re: VAXmate PSU

 

Hello Rob,

söndag 29 mars 2020 skrev Rob Jarratt mailto:robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com> >:

Thanks Mattis. I do test it with a load, although to be honest I forgot to do 
this when I took the measurements yesterday. I use a modern-ish IDE disk and a 
load board from a MicroVAX 2000 as the dummy load. I don’t know if that is 
sufficient.

 

Do you know the nominal output rating for the supply?

It might be the case that even with load board the load is uneven. But it 
sounds less likely.  

 

I don’t know enough about PSUs to make the secondary side drawing more logical 
unfortunately.

 

Can be hard. But a good idea is try to 

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

That's what I did, file one down.
Bill

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020, 7:06 AM Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Tom said
> > Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
> >
> > --tnx
> > --tom
>
>
> There is a bloke in France(?) who can apparently do them
> https://sites.google.com/site/conservatique/keys
>
> I managed to borrow one and my local Mister Minit keycutter had no trouble
> matching
> the blank. It is a very short key and the pattern is very simple, you
> could probably
> file one down if it matches the cross section. I could take some close-up
> photos of my
> working copy (I posted the original back to its owner) if you really
> needed them.
>
> Steve.
>
>
>

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

From: Tom Uban

> Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?

Google is your friend; here:

https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05#Keys

I don't recall if there's anough info there to create new keys without an
original to copy. At one point I made a run of copies (after posting a call
here); I suppose I could do so again.

Noel

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Doug Jackson via cctalk]

I'm literally in the process of starting this.

I have a pdp11/05 and the key was snapped off.  I brazed it back together.

The barrel is a three wafer unit.  It is easily removable by undoing the 4
screws to remove the front panel.  Removing the screws holding the micro
switches in place and removing the lock retaining plate.

I was going to take the key and barrel to a local locksmith for him to make
some spares.

Doug

On Sun, 5 Apr. 2020, 6:18 pm Tom Uban via cctalk, 
wrote:

> Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
>
> --tnx
> --tom
>

Re: pdp11/05 key?

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

Tom said
> Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?
>
> --tnx
> --tom


There is a bloke in France(?) who can apparently do them
https://sites.google.com/site/conservatique/keys

I managed to borrow one and my local Mister Minit keycutter had no trouble 
matching
the blank. It is a very short key and the pattern is very simple, you could 
probably
file one down if it matches the cross section. I could take some close-up 
photos of my
working copy (I posted the original back to its owner) if you really needed 
them.

Steve.

pdp11/05 key?

[Tom Uban via cctalk]

Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made?

--tnx
--tom