> From: Rich Alderson
> it is impossible to respond privately unless you happen to have a bunch
> of old messages archived and the person to whom you want to respond is
> someone who has written previously.
If you go into the list archive:
> From: Tony Duell
> I fail to see how anyone can be a good digital designer and not
> understand analogue electronics.
It's easy! As long as your devices are being run in a domain where their
behaviour is purely, well, digital, one can get away with it! :-)
I'm a perfect case in
> From: Pontus Pihlgren
> The 11/70 backplane is wirewrapped.
Oh, right you are! I don't know where my brain has fled to these days!
It's actually an MJ11 (-11/70 core memory) backplane (I checked the part
number - plus someone pointed out that you can see "MJ11" written somewhere).
This:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/252820125010
looks like it might be an -11/70 backplane, but I'm too lazy to look up the
part number.
Noel
> From: John Wilson
> I think this is DELUA?
Yes, that's right - sorry!
> I'm getting old ... could have it wrong.
No, _I_'m the one who's getting old! (But in this case, that's not it - I
always get the names of those two mixed up!)
> I'd be inclined to just try it.
I hadn't
So all the DEUNA's I've seen have L10 (ceramic package, 10Mhz) 68K's in them.
Has anyone tried using anything else, and did it work?
I _assume_ an x12 would work, but until someone has acutally tried it...
The Pxx's (plastic packaging) might not work - according to the datasheet,
they are 2mm
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> Considering that I have never seen any sockets that were 2mm different
> in width ... I really can't imagine any CPU not fitting.
I think you're right. I took another look at the drawing, and I'd been looking
at the package width dimension: there's also a
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> I doubt Motorolla was in the business of custom making different size
> chips, even for DEC.
So, that triggered a question in my mind: why was DEC using the 68K on this
board, anyway? They had plenty of in-house chips the could have used, e.g.
the J11. The
Hi, a question about generic analog stuff.
In the process of getting SD cards to work, Dave is seeing square-wave noise
on a line. (1V of square wave, with pulses about 400ns long, running at
375kHz.) The line runs through a flat cable of modest length, along with
other signal-carrying lines.
> From: Dwight Kelvey
> Is there any load resistance at the end of the line?
Yes, 270K to ground (i.e. pretty large). How does that have an effect on
whether cross-talk can create a square wave? Sorry, I'm not understanding.
Noel
> From: Allison
> FYI this is the same problem designers hit with DRAMS back 40 years ago.
This didn't ring (pun not intended) a bell for me; can you say a bit more?
> From: Chuck Guzis
> I'll offer a suggestion that if your SD card *must* be a significant
> distance from
I should mention that this is a pre-prototype; the final thing won't have a
cable at all; so this isn't a fundamental issue with the design (if it is
cross-talk). And the SD card isn't even plugged in when we see this - if it is
cross-talk, it has to be some other signal carried in the cable.
> From: Eugene (W2HX)
> I am still not convinced it is coupling at all. ... I just don't think
> you can get square waves from square waves. ...
> it is even harder to believe one could successfully couple a square
> wave onto such a transmission line unless the signal is
> From: Philipp Hachtmann
> The 11/20 is the simplest 11 as far as I know.
'Simplest' in what sense? They certainly aren't the easiest ones to
understand, with all that random control logic! The -11/04 is far easier
to understand (for me, at least; YMMV).
> From: Ethan Dicks
>
> From: Brent Hilpert
> I don't have a full enough picture of the circuit and circumstances to
> provide a definitive suggestion but, some principles:
> ...
> It's not clear C-coupling is what's going on here (the wave shape looks
> pretty sharp for what I understand of
> From: Zane Healy
> Good grief! When did Lisa stuff get so expensive?
When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?
Noel
> From: Raymond Wiker
> Steve Jobs ... was also a stickler for perfection and largely unwilling
> to make compromises.
Absolutely; and that's a large part of the reason for the success of Apple.
His products were just really well done.
It's also, I think, a big part of the causality
> From: geneb
> I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :)
With a steam-shovel... :-)
>> that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox
> Fixed that for ya. :)
Well, technically, as you probably know, the mouse came from Engelbart (well,
his group; I'm
> From: geneb
>> When people decided Steve Jobs had become a god?
> Right about the time that whole "computer for the rest of us" started...
Yes, of course: nobody had thought of a cheap personal computer before him.
(Which reminds me, does the CHM have a Datapoint 2200? If not, we
> From: geneb
> I'm going to assume you're being sarcastic. :)
With a steam-shovel... :-)
>> that whole display/windows/menu/mouse thing he copied from Xerox
> Fixed that for ya. :)
Well, technically, as you probably know, the mouse came from Engelbart (well,
his group; I'm
> From: Glen Slick
> the Q22/Q22 backplane is not good for an 11/83 CPU ... M8190 boards and
> both have PMI signals on the CD half of the CPU board.
So I seem to recall hearing tales of PMI cards emitting smoke when plugged
into a Q/Q/ backplane. That doesn't seem to have happened
> From: Sean Conner
> I really think it's for *this* reason (the handler() example) that C
> doesn't allow nested functions.
I wouldn't be sure of that; I would tend to think that nested functions were
left out simply because they add complexity, and didn't add enough value to
> From: John Wilson
> It would have been nice if it had stolen FORTRAN-77's idea of declaring
> a variable in the size that you want (I'm talking about INTEGER*2 vs.
> INTEGER*4 etc.), instead of just "knowing" what the difference is
> between int and long
Back in the late
> From: Alfred M. Szmidt
> No even the following program:
> int main (void) { return 0; }
> is guaranteed to work
I'm missing something: why not?
Noel
PS: There probably is something to the sports car analogy, but I'm not going
to take a position on that one! :-)
> From: Mattis Lind
> One of them does not seems to be at bitsavers.
That's on my list of items to get.
I have a page-feed scanner, so will easily be able to scan this (although
I'll have to get some instruction on exactly what incantation to use to
Acrobat to turn the TIFF's into a
> From: Steven Malikoff
> I've scanned the full version of this manual that comprises the
> installation guide, description, system specifications, theory of
> operation, timing chart, full schematic and manifest.
Oh, wow! You get the Documentation Preservation Gold Star! A
Hi, all, continuing the process of getting rid of duplicate DEC documentation:
I have an extra copy of the the UNIBUS Interface Manual, Second Edition
(DEC-11-HIAB-D); I'm interested in trading it for any interesting PDP-11
documentation or stuff you'd like to part with which I don't have.
One
> On Apr 21, 2017, at 1:26 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> It makes me wonder, what is the oldest still running mailinglist?
I don't have access to my _old_ email (i.e. from the 80's) to confirm this,
and I don't think they still have copies of the very oldest mail, but the
IETF list has
> From: Rod Smallwood
> All computer computer languages are only as good or bad as the person
> using them.
True words. I'd rather work on a program written in assembly language,
done by a _really good_ programmer, than a program written in _anything_,
done by a bad one. (My classic
> From: Al Kossow
> Harry did an oral history at CHM
There are also a pair at the Smithsonian:
http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0196_husk730419.pdf
http://amhistory.si.edu/archives/AC0196_husk720309.pdf
and the CBI did one too, but alas it does not seem to be on-line (it's not in
I have an extra copy of:
DEC-11-SERA-DDisk Operating System Monitor Programmer's Handbook,
February 1971
if anyone has a use for it.
Noel
> From: Bill Gunshannon
> Surely there were Mailing Lists prior to the existence of the Internet,
> yes?
Absolutely. They started on the ARPANet, fairly early on.
E.g. SF-Lovers (one of the first 'non-mission related' mailing lists) started
in September, 1979, and MsgGroup (an
> Is anyone confirmed to be picking this stuff up?
I sent the person an email, never heard back.
Ditto for one of the people here who said they'd sent the person an email - I
sent them an email, asking if they'd heard back, never got an answer from them
either.
Noel
> It's one part of a DMAX/16.
Oooh, good catch. I hadn't looked carefully at those faint images, I was just
looking at the brochure which had the separate images.
> Not nearly as cool as an Enable :).
Yes; the ENABLE was pretty clever: it used an MUD backplane as an EUB
backplane, to
> From: Dan Cohoe dancohoe at oxford.net
> I'll put my hand up on this.
It sounds like you got everything that was left?
Enjoy the -11/60, they are pretty rare!
Noel
> From: geneb
> A lot of /completely irrelevant/ technicalities, especially considering
> the material in question is a physical object, not software.
Doesn't matter. The various matters I raised (copyright, restricted rights,
trade secret, and ownership) apply to printed
> From: geneb
> This entire conversation is completely absurd.
Perhaps.
But she did ask "Am I legally allowed to resell these?" - which is rather a
different question from 'If you were me, would you just go ahead and sell
these?' (My answer to the latter question, BTW, is 'Yes.')
Yes,
> From: Devin Davison
> This past week I managed to pick up a pdp 11/23.
Nice system; the CPU has the MMU and FPP, you've got what's probably a 256KB
memory card (an NS23M - documentation is available - depending on the chips,
it can be 64KB or 256KB - if the former, let me know, I'll
> From: Devin Davison
> This past week I managed to pick up a pdp 11/23.
Nice system; the CPU has the MMU and FPP, you've got what's probably a 256KB
memory card (an NS23M - documentation is available - depending on the chips,
it can be 64KB or 256KB - if the former, let me know, I'll
> From: Christian Corti
> My complaint ... is, that if you reply to a message on the list, the
> author of that message gets a private mail, too, as he is listed in the
> Reply-To:-field. This is *wrong* and must be corrected (i.e. removed)!
Good grief. Just about every email
So I have a complete RK611 (backplane and boards, no cables, sorry). I doubt
very much I'm ever going to have any RK07's to use it with, so it's available
if anyone has a use for it. It seems to be in reasonably good condition, but I
have no idea if it's working or not.
Noel
> From: Paul Koning
>>> terrible fluorescent lighting.
>> There's another kind? :-)
> in fact you can get LEDs that fit in fluorescent fixtures, either as is
I've been looking for LED replacements, but I haven't seen them; I'd have
thought that that would be a pretty popular
> From: Jon Elson
> I have converted our kitchen to LEDs.
Yeah, I've already done ours, too. Our fixtures are let into the ceiling, so
just replacing them with LED ones wasn't an option; I couldn't find ones that
took the same opening. But I bought an under-ceiling fluorescent-sized LED
> From: Josh Dersch
> I'm looking to rack up my PDP-11/34 so I can get it off my bench. I'd
> like to track down something similar to (if not exactly) the original
> rackmount rails (the ones that allow the chassis to pivot 90 degrees
I'm not the sure BA11-K (10-1/2" box) mounted
> From: Pete Turnbull
>> I'm not the sure BA11-K (10-1/2" box) mounted 11/34's could do the
>> rotate thing
> The two I've had .. both rotated.
Ah, right you are - brain fade, late at night.
I went looking in my BA11-K collection, and found a couple that do have the
rotate -
So there was an odd board from Able up on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/311809552775
Anyone know what it was? From the Able product summary it looked a bit like an
Interlink/U or perhaps an Enable - although the detailed chip layout didn't
look like the illustrations of either. Anyone know?
Hi, all, I have a Heathkit TC-3 tube checker, including manual and prints,
available. Image here:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/tmp/TubeChecker.jpg
It has been modified with an after-market Coletronics panel with a bunch of
additional tube bases.
Condition is unknown; it probably
> From: Mouse
> Might be nice to say where it is geographically.
Yorktown, Virginia, U.S.A.
Noel
Just a heads-up that the 1979 edition of the "pdp11 bus handbook" has a very
serious editing error in it, in the description of UNIBUS arbitration.
On page 38, immediately after step 13 of the NPR Arbitration Sequence
("13. SACK must be negated before BBSY may be negated."), it says "A bus
> From: Tony Duell
> Are any DEC enthusiasts here jealous of this
Actually, not me! I'm an old enough campaigner that I recall when real light
bulbs were standard, and they were a total PITA! So when LED's arrived, we
all though they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. So I'm
>> From: Charles Anthony
>> Configuration+Panel+WHITE:
>> Hard to read the writing, but I think it is a SCU configuration panel.
> I'm still trying to get confirmation (THVV couldn't help), but I think
> you may well be right.
It _is_ an SCU; see:
> From: Charles Anthony
> Configuration+Panel+WHITE:
> Hard to read the writing, but I think it is a SCU configuration panel.
Good catch! I'm still trying to get confirmation (THVV couldn't help),
but I think you may well be right.
The picture of the MIT 6180:
> From: Chuck Guzis
> Nope, this wasn't a minicomputer.
You're the first person I've heard call a KA10 a 'minicomputer'! :-)
Noel
So Antonio donated a whole bunch of VAX articles to the Computer History
wiki, with the result that many of the top items on the 'Wanted Pages' list:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/Special:WantedPages
are now DEC terminals, and PDP-8's. I know we have a few aficionados of those
around - anyone up for
> From: Pontus Pihlgren
> I gather it's for a KA10.
Yes, the MIT-DM machine.(MIT-AI had an MIT-built - I think - paging box that
was mostly program-compatible with the one on MIT-DM, but had an extra bit of
physical page number, so supported 4 'mobies' of physical memory instead of 2;
I
Lot of 6; UK only, I think
http://www.ebay.com/itm/253056726492
Noel
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
> Having several different Unibus board designs in various stages .. I can
> tell you that producing a *reliable* Unibus board is *not* going to be
> cheap.
Why not? Just the size, gold-plated fingers, and transceiver chips, or is
there more?
> From: Jerry Weiss
> If there is an option to start at track 1 or skip the first 30 (?)
> blocks, that might work.
It's worse than that; there is 'logical' and 'physical' block order, and the
two are quite different (blocks are scattered arount the disk in order to do
rotational
> From: Mattis Lind
> I have some big format DEC drawings that is much bigger than the
> standard 11x17 drawings that most others are.
> ...
> Since I cannot do this myself I need to go to a professional scanning
> service and pay for it.
The other option (which is what I
> From: Pete Lancashire
> if the seller wont ship, will s/he take them to a pack and ship outfit ?
It's even easier than that. I have used PakMail:
https://www.pakmail.com/
a fair amount, and have been very pleased with their service and pricing;
they generally offer a pick-up
> From: Al Kossow
> just sold for $1600
Well, it is from a limited edition of 20, it does not appear to be in print
other than that, and this page:
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/in-his-own-words-gary-kildall/
makes it sound like the family are unlikely to release it...
> From: Ed Groenenberg
> Re-purposed art or vandalism?
Given that the keyboard was at one point there (in the images), but has now
apparently been sold separate, clearly the latter...
Noel
> From: Mark Tapley
> Next stop, I'll pull the cover off the machine and see whether I can
> spot any spilled battery electrolyte from the old battery or anything
> else suspicious looking on the logic board in that area
It probably wouldn't hurt to clean that area with a Q-tip
> From: Liam Proven
> I confess to much trepidation at the hate for keyboard collectors, as I
> am one.
> ...
> We're not _all_ evil, you know.
Unfortunately, the percentage who _are_ willing to chop up original machines,
leaving them non-functional (as in this case), is
So for those who aren't up to writing text, if images are 'your thing', we
could definitely use you! E.g I have added a large number of PDP-11-related
pages, but I'm mostly too lazy to do images, and there are dozens of pages
which need them.
Again, if you'd like an account, let me know, and I
> From: Fritz Mueller
> I'm in need of cabling and a distribution panel for a DEC DZ11 serial
> mux
Here ya go:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/321225351590
They'd probably take $30 each...
The DZ11 originally shipped with the H317-E 16-port EIA Distribution Panel
(which supported two
> From: Fritz Mueller
> the heads are accumulating dust and oxide in places that are hard see
> and get to
Sorry, I don't follow this - where are you thinking of?
> I'm looking for some advice/calibration from the community here.
Hmm, we had to do this once BITD (we had a bad
> is that crucifix-shaped area of low reflection the thing you're speaking
> of? It's only visible in reflected light, not direct light; I'm not sure
> what it is, perhaps crystals oriented in a different direction from the
> rest of the head?
Now that I look again, you can see it
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Perhaps it is time to find/train a younger apprentice :-)
'Yes, my master!' :-)
> If anybody has a decent picture of a clean/fresh RK05 head, I would
> appreciate seeing it
Here ya go:
http://gunkies.org/wiki/File:RK05Head.jpg
That head (NOS) came
> From: Pontus Pihlgren pontus at Update.UU.SE
> On Thu, Jul 27, 2017 at 06:06:05PM +0200, Mattis Lind wrote:
> I am a bit curious about what the rest of the low cabinet was used >
> for.
I have an -11/44 which has a BA11-K mounted below the CPU.
Noel
> From: Dave Wade
> three generations so transistor (600?), TTL (6000, L66, DPS100/200/300)
> and MOS (some of the DPS8) systems had different panels.
I've never seen mention of a Multics DPS100/200/300 machine, so maybe they
skipped Multics support in that generation?
> From:
> From: Charles Anthony
> Gah. I saw a picture of one somewhere recently, but I can't remember
> where.
Are you thinking of this one:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/SysConKAPanel.jpg
Meter closeup here:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/SysConMeter.jpg
So, I've been collecting images of 'Multics' 'front' panels from around the
Internet, intending to do a gallery.
(I should explain that, in common with mainframes of that era, a Multics
system had a variety of different kinds of boxes - CPUs, memories, etc - but
also others, intended to support
> From: Ed Sharpe
> from what I was told, many versions of machines by Big H were used to
> run multics over the span of time.
Yes, it appears from what I can find that there were basically three
different Honeywell machines that ran Multics:
- the 6180 - the one the LCM has the
> From: Jerry Weiss
> So it would appear the upgrade board makes provisions for both
> situations.
I'm not sure that the two situations that the upgrade board supports are in
fact different, from its point of view. (Assuming that the two situations you
refer to are the two different
> From: Noel Chiappa
> (One cable carries uclock, the other uPC data.)
Minor goof there; the low bits of the uPC are in one cable, along with the
"Manual Clock Enable" and "Manual Clock" signals; the other cable carries the
high bit/bits (depending on whether it's a KD11-E or KD11-EA) of
> From: Josh Dersch
> There's a 20-pin header on the CPU upgrade board which connects to the
> front panel. ... the programmer's panel loses most of its functionality
> .. but the HALT/SS and BOOT switches are functional with the cable
> connected. ... With the 20-pin cable
> From: Josh Dersch
>> Now I'm confused. There is no cable from the front panel to the CPU in
>> a standard 11/34? (There's one from the front panel to the backplane;
>> another from the front panel to the M9301; and another from the
>> programmer's front panel [if present] to
> From: Al Kossow
> You need moving air, though.
> I'm not sure how you do that well in a TK50 style cartridge.
Hmm, maybe not? I start with the need for moving air - which I do not
dispute, just wondering what the needed effect is. I don't think it can be
removing out-gassed
> From: Fritz Mueller
> Even better news: I was subsequently able to dump the contents of my
> M9301-YB, and found they do indeed exactly match the contents ...
> posted in [the] M9301-YB disassembly.
Excellent news!
When I get as chance, I'l do more work on the disassembly
> From: William Degnan
> what is the memory range
That's in the disassembly page:
http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/ROMs/M9301-YB.mac
765000-765776 and 773000-773776
> can you post the ROM dump so I can compare on my end?
Well, the contents are in that page too, but
> From: Emanuel Stiebler
>> on the grounds that the analog part at that speed would be too tricky
>> for us.
> No, it isn't.
You _are_ talking to two people who are so clueless about analog that we
didn't bother putting ground lines between each pair of signal lines in a
> From: Al Kossow
> but it looks like they are going EOL
Is that just this particular product (individual SD/etc products seem to go
out all the time, as new and bigger ones come out), or industrial SD cards in
general? I hope not that latter, that would blow a large hole in out
> From: David Bridgham dab at froghouse.org
> I'm going to have enough fun with trying to implement the USB stack in
> the FPGA
ISTR discussing putting a PDP-11 into the FPGA (there are Verilog PDP-11's
available), so we could write our USB code in C (I'd use the Unix V6 compiler
to
> From: Paul Koning
>> do industrial SD cards exist?
> If you have a ready-made SD interface, these cards work nicely. If you
> need to build one from scratch it gets tricky, because the interface is
> fairly high speed serial (packet based) signaling, and the
>
> From: Al Kossow
> The issue would be things like the swap partition on a unix disk or
> whatever the equivalent is under RSX
Which is why, as I mentioned, that we're including the ability to have
virtual disks which store their data in RAM, not on permanent storage - their
contents
> From: Emanuel Stiebler
> If I would do it again, it would be USB only with some sd-card slots.
Exactly our plan (although the USB is left until after we get the SD running).
> USB with 480MHz is fast enough
I think our plan was to skip that speed, and go with the next one down,
> From: Al Kossow
> For what it's worth, I've been seeing sellers cancel orders after the
> fact a LOT this year.
Any guesses as to what's going on?
Noel
> From: Philipp Hachtmann
> The DEC stuff was designed quite wrong-insertion resistant.
> ...
> I did it. Once. It leads to impressive fireworks on many boards.
I managed to plug in an M9301 backwards, once. Luckily, most of the other
boards came through OK (I think I lost one
> From: Christian Corti
> I don't like the idea of CF or SD at all. I'd pretty much prefer PATA
> or SATA, because ... Real drives are also much more reliable than flash
> drives,
I found this interesting/troubling, because Dave Bridgham and I decided to
use SD cards, after I
> From: Ian S. King
> Those keys are common across nearly all DEC machines prior to the ones
> that started using plastic keys. XX2247 is the code.
Someone on eBait is selling replicas for not wholly unreasonable amounts of
money:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/142118132040
> Every H960 and H967 should have one. I think They came standard.
When new, yes and when was the last time you bought a new H960? :-)
Several of the ones I found came without kickplates; I figured others might be
in the same boat.
Noel
> From: Rob Jarratt
> I have just written a new blog post
> the comparators are not producing valid output, the input signals are
> varying abave and below the reference voltage, but the outputs never
change.
Don't forget that when the output of chip A is wrong, that might be
I don't know how common these are, but here's one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/192280586656
Noel
> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr
>>> We need to move our business and I have about a ton of
>>> classic cimputer junk in the SFBA that need to go or get scrapped:
>>> Symbolics 3645? (from Guy Sotomayer a few years back)
>>> PDP 11
> I stopped by and picked up some stuff from
So, Paul A lent me a set of these (thanks Paul!) so I could scan them in (they
are not currently available online).
Howwever, there's a problem. The last page in the set contains the circuit
diagram for the M7248 BBSY Repeater card (the heart of the whole device, since
the DB11-A uses BBSY to
> From: Al Kossow
Hey, thanks for all the effort to help...
> which has the schematic
> they have been there for over three years
$@#&($^@(*$&^! That's what I get for trusting Google; I tried searching
for '"DB11-A" prints' and '"DB11-A" drawings' and got nothing ... except for
> From: Eric Christopherson
>> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017, william degnan via cctech wrote:
>> [Command + ~] is a system reset.
> Just out of curiosity: do you mean the shift key gets held down too?
> If not, it would write it as Command + `.
I found the syntax slightly confusing.
> From: Jim Stephens
> I just ran across a sale on epay by a guy who thought you could pull
> the processor chip off the board and sell each in separate auctions.
There are a lot of idiotz out there.
I ran into one who'd removed a group of boards from (probably) an -11/40, and
then
> From: Systems Glitch
> You need split I for 2.11BSD
ISTR reading that the network code runs in Supervisor mode, so you need that
to, technically (although all -11s CPUs with Supervisor also have I+D, and
vice versa).
Does the 2.9 include networking code? If so, it must use overlays
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