Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017, Sam O'nella wrote: Extremely interesting Fred. I hadn't heard of half of those experimental disk sizes. ??Are those stories from your experience or from that article? (Yes I'll rtfm shortly). Definitely my experiences and presence in the business at the time, NOT from article (although one of the two articles was a copy of what I said a previous time that I posted here). The Massaro and Sollman material was from the CHM article. I was around then. I was not in the middle of it, but it was all heavily discussed in the trade publications, at Comdex, etc. More than a few arguments about the different "shirt pocket" disks. We seriously believed that the major contenders for becoming the standard were: 3"(for technical superiority) 3.25" (for Dysan's software publishing effort to make it the standard) 3.5" (Sony and HP, and later Apple. and later IBM which clinched it) 3.9" (Brown/Tabor) (because it was announced by IBM) I gave short shrift to the many other entrants with my dismissive "3.9", 2.9", 2.8", and several others, never caught on." Much more should be recorded, such as the spiral track 2.9" (Mitsumi?), etc. I consider the twiggy to be only a a slightly modified 5.25" - if you cut another thumb slot (the hole that lets you get fingerprints onto the media) in the jacket, you can make usable Twiggy diskettes out of ordinary HD ("1.2M") diskettes. Amlyn (1.2M before 5170?) had an extra square hole for the jukebox to grab. Likewise, 48tpi/96tpi/100tpi are just variants. BTW, my Micropolis 48tpi was the most reliable TRS-80 drive that I had. The 100tpi was interesting, but I didn't get into it much. It came with a copy of Micopolis OS for TRS-80! Although Chuck mentioned Dysan putting on hub rings, Verbatim (who were selling more) didn't do so until later. Therefore, some had hub-ring; some didn't. Office workers might as well have been told, "put the ones with hub rings into the drive with the asterisk", since lack of hub-ring and lack of asterisk mean nothing. Note: One of the options for The Berkeley Microcomputer Flip-Jig (MY first retail product) was a jig on the side of it for aligning and installing hub-rings. By analogy, most here could talk about the myriad ID,OD,voltage,polarity of coaxial barrel power connectors, 20mA,RS232,"Centronics" parallel, and USB, mini-USB, micro-USB, USB-C. And then, in a few decades be very pleasantly surprised if anybody ever calls it "extremely interesting"! (or the story of the ascendency of Google) I had heard the story of Adkisson and the bar napkin, and then years later, saw it in a sidebar in Byte? Computerworld?. GOOGLEing for details on it, I stumbled on the CHM "Oral History" acticle. In that, Massaro and Sollman dispute that story. I have now found some more discussion/argument of details: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AHistory_of_the_floppy_disk#The_5_.C2.BC-inch_Napkin_Urban_Legend Massaro and Sollman also talk about Steve Jobs pestering them to make a $100 drive (to be sold for $500), but as Chuck pointed out, that doesn't fit with the timelin!, casting some doubts on their recollections, and thus even casts doubt on their refutation of the bar napkin story. I would really love to see novelty cocktail napkins with a picture of a floppy on them. No, not a little photo somewhere random on it - I mean a 5.25" napkin with a square "notch" printed on one side, an oval printed on it for thumbprints, concentric large circles in the middle, and small printed "index hole" circle. Optionally, where the label would be could be the maker's text. Optionally, the Adkisson story printed on the back. I will not assert ownership rights to the idea if somebody who makes them will send me one or two! The other article that I mentioned is an RICM (Rhode Island Computer Museum?) webpage with outright theft of a post that I made here on a previous occasion when I said most of the same things. It is entirely my wording, including several inaccurate quotes of George Morrow (Sellam? negotiated with George's widow for public release of "Quotations From Chairman Morrow"!) Lack of attribution is no big deal, but the insertion of "RICM notes that" at the beginning of an otherwise unaltered one of my paragraphs turns failure to acknowledge authorship into THEFT of authorship. "The simplistic style is partly explained by the fact that its editors, having to meet a publishing deadline, copied the information off the back of a packet of breakfast cereal, hastily embroidering it with a few foot notes in order to avoid prosecution under the incomprehensibly torturous Galactic Copyright Laws. Its interesting to note that a later and wilier editor sent the book backwards in time, through a temporal warp, and then successfully sued the breakfast cereal company for infringement of the same laws." - HHGTTG The only odd one i have is a backup cartridge? that resembles
Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
> On 21 Jul 2017, at 11:46, Liam Proven via cctalk> wrote: > > I was aware of Twiggy disks, Hitachi 3" as used in Amstrad and Tatung, > and of one that I think Fred _didn't_ mention: the 2" 720 kB diskettes > used in the Zenith Minisport: > > http://oldcomputers.net/zenith-minisport.html > > ... but none of the rest. > > We all know what 3.5" diskettes were called in South Africa, right? Yep :) I have a Facit9911 2 11/16” (or 70mm in new money) microfloppy drive with a mahoosive interface module which google turns up precisely nothing about. I’m pretty sure I’ve mentioned it here before but even a search of the archive turns up nothing. See pic - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/facit9911MicroFloppy.jpg — Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
> From: Liam Proven > I confess to much trepidation at the hate for keyboard collectors, as I > am one. > ... > We're not _all_ evil, you know. Unfortunately, the percentage who _are_ willing to chop up original machines, leaving them non-functional (as in this case), is sufficiently high that the field's reputation is mud among many in the wider collector community. Whether this eventually exerts any influence on the field is an open question. My guess, sadly, is 'no': the world doesn't work that way any more. Noel
Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 21 July 2017 at 07:03, Sam O'nella via cctalkwrote: > Extremely interesting Fred. I hadn't heard of half of those experimental disk > sizes. Are those stories from your experience or from that article? (Yes > I'll rtfm shortly). > The only odd one i have is a backup cartridge? that resembles around a 3.5" > but is in fact closer to the mythical 12" floppy. Actually here's the picture > i brought 8", 5.25" and a CED to show size comparison. > http://www.main.org/ctacs/history/2015/20151001/20151001ctacs3744.html > null Ditto! I was aware of Twiggy disks, Hitachi 3" as used in Amstrad and Tatung, and of one that I think Fred _didn't_ mention: the 2" 720 kB diskettes used in the Zenith Minisport: http://oldcomputers.net/zenith-minisport.html ... but none of the rest. We all know what 3.5" diskettes were called in South Africa, right? -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053
Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Eric said: > I think Shugart settled on 5.25" for the size of a minifloppy at least a > year, and more likely two years, before Steve Jobs would have visited. I > don't have proof, but SA400 public intro was in 1976, and they probably > took more than a year of development to get to that point. For interest there's an SA-400 announcement article on page 86 of BYTE, December 1976: https://archive.org/details/byte-magazine-1976-12 Steve.
Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Extremely interesting Fred. I hadn't heard of half of those experimental disk sizes. Are those stories from your experience or from that article? (Yes I'll rtfm shortly). The only odd one i have is a backup cartridge? that resembles around a 3.5" but is in fact closer to the mythical 12" floppy. Actually here's the picture i brought 8", 5.25" and a CED to show size comparison. http://www.main.org/ctacs/history/2015/20151001/20151001ctacs3744.html null
Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On Jul 19, 2017 10:15 AM, "Fred Cisin via cctalk"wrote: > That Steve Jobs was pestering them for a cheap drive, but due to the holes in his jeans and personal hygiene?, they never took him seriously. I think Shugart settled on 5.25" for the size of a minifloppy at least a year, and more likely two years, before Steve Jobs would have visited. I don't have proof, but SA400 public intro was in 1976, and they probably took more than a year of development to get to that point. There's evidence in engineering notes recently published indicating that Woz did some design work using a normal SA400 before Shugart was convinced to sell Apple the SA390, which was the SA400 sans the standard drive electronics PCB.
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
I like it, that's quite artfully done actually! Best paint job ever on an 024 (am I right? 024, not 026 because it has no printer?). It would be perfect if you had a normal 024 or 026 to put right beside it with its drab gray wrinkle paint. What a pity it lost its keyboard. That ruined both the punch and the art in one fell swoop. Marc From: cctalk <cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> on behalf of "cctalk@classiccmp.org" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Reply-To: <e...@groenenberg.net>, "cctalk@classiccmp.org" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Date: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 at 6:03 AM To: "cctalk@classiccmp.org" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Subject: Repurposed Art (ahem...) Re-purposed art or vandalism? http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta.
Re: Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
"That is why they switched from 8 foot to 5.25 foot floppies." LOL On Wed, Jul 19, 2017 at 12:15 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Did any one ever use keypunch to tape or 8' floppy? > On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > Those 8' floppies were a PITA to handle and store, but > > they sure held a lot of data... > > ;-P > > That is why they switched from 8 foot to 5.25 foot floppies. > > > Punchcard size is reputed to have been chosen for use of readily available > currency bins (was the dollar bill reduced in size as a reflection of its > declining value :-? > > 8 inch floppies (1971 23FD) were intended to be stored like 8.5x11 paper. > > > I'd like to find more info about the decision of 5.25 inch. > > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/5.25_3.5_Floppy_Drive/5.25_and_3.5_Floppy_Panel.oral_history.2005.102657925.pdf > is one of the only sources. > > In it, > Don Massaro, of Shugart Associates, says that they chose 5.25" as the > smallest that they could make a diskette that COULD NOT be put in a shirt > pocket, deliberately avoiding that particular method of damaging a > diskette. > > They all agree that Wang was the impetus. That Steve Jobs was pestering > them for a cheap drive, but due to the holes in his jeans and personal > hygiene?, they never took him seriously. > > George Sollman said that the drive size was shosen to match tape drives. > > (also mentioned in a sidebar in Byte 35? years ago:) > However Jimmy Adkisson of Shugart Associates claims that they were in a > bar with Dr. Wang and his people, and when they asked Wang what size it > should be, he picked up a bar napkin. Adkisson took the napkin back to > the office and measured it. I want to find out what bar, and whether > that bar has personalized napkins! > (I'd also like to get novelty napkins printed up with a picture of a > diskette and a copy of that story printed on the back!) > > > Later, there was the "battle of the shirt-pocket disks" between 3" > (Amstrad), 3.25" (Dysan) and 3.5" (Sony). Dysan, who did not want to > retool to make hard-shell 3" or 3.5", designed a 3.25" floppy floppy. > They made the seemingly sensible assumption that the size conflict would > be won by whichever had software available, and they bet the company on a > 3.25" software publishing venture. Almost all MAJOR programs were > available on 3.25" diskettes, even though the Seequia Chameleon 325 was > the only computer that ever made it to market with a 3.25" drive. > 3.9", 2.9", 2.8", and several others, never caught on. > > > HP and Apple went with Sony 3.5", and when IBM also went 3.5" (abandoning > their announced 3.9"), that sealed it. > The earliest 3.5" disks (I have a few "Shugart" ones) had no shutter. > Then there was a sliding spring loaded shutter, with a place on the disk > to labelled "PINCH" (with an arrow) to release the shutter. > When full automatic shutters came out, the word "PINCH" was dropped, but > the arrow was left on as a reminder of which direction the disk went into > the drive, even though it only went in one way (unlike 8" and 5.25" disks > that would fit into the drive 8 ways) > > > It is also amusing about the distortions in memory perceptions. > I have a [slightly crashed] RAMAC? 24" 100K? platter. I would show it to > my students. Whenever it was mentioned later, the students would recall > it as being "three or four feet diameter!" > > Similarly, we often waste time in futile attempts to track down "ten inch" > and "twelve inch" floppy stories that were simply misremembrances of 8". > (If you don't believe that, FIND ONE) > > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/shirt-pocket-diskette > is an UNCREDITED direct copy of a post that I made in this group. > Lack of attribution isn't very bad. But adding "RICM notes that" on the > beginning of one of my paragraphs turns that into theft. (3 of less than > 10 words changed) > Is the rest of "their" content also similarly plagiarized? > Are the pictures of THEIR collection, or unauthorized copies of other > people's pictures? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com > -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com
Diskette size (was: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Did any one ever use keypunch to tape or 8' floppy? On Wed, 19 Jul 2017, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: Those 8' floppies were a PITA to handle and store, but they sure held a lot of data... ;-P That is why they switched from 8 foot to 5.25 foot floppies. Punchcard size is reputed to have been chosen for use of readily available currency bins (was the dollar bill reduced in size as a reflection of its declining value :-? 8 inch floppies (1971 23FD) were intended to be stored like 8.5x11 paper. I'd like to find more info about the decision of 5.25 inch. http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Oral_History/5.25_3.5_Floppy_Drive/5.25_and_3.5_Floppy_Panel.oral_history.2005.102657925.pdf is one of the only sources. In it, Don Massaro, of Shugart Associates, says that they chose 5.25" as the smallest that they could make a diskette that COULD NOT be put in a shirt pocket, deliberately avoiding that particular method of damaging a diskette. They all agree that Wang was the impetus. That Steve Jobs was pestering them for a cheap drive, but due to the holes in his jeans and personal hygiene?, they never took him seriously. George Sollman said that the drive size was shosen to match tape drives. (also mentioned in a sidebar in Byte 35? years ago:) However Jimmy Adkisson of Shugart Associates claims that they were in a bar with Dr. Wang and his people, and when they asked Wang what size it should be, he picked up a bar napkin. Adkisson took the napkin back to the office and measured it. I want to find out what bar, and whether that bar has personalized napkins! (I'd also like to get novelty napkins printed up with a picture of a diskette and a copy of that story printed on the back!) Later, there was the "battle of the shirt-pocket disks" between 3" (Amstrad), 3.25" (Dysan) and 3.5" (Sony). Dysan, who did not want to retool to make hard-shell 3" or 3.5", designed a 3.25" floppy floppy. They made the seemingly sensible assumption that the size conflict would be won by whichever had software available, and they bet the company on a 3.25" software publishing venture. Almost all MAJOR programs were available on 3.25" diskettes, even though the Seequia Chameleon 325 was the only computer that ever made it to market with a 3.25" drive. 3.9", 2.9", 2.8", and several others, never caught on. HP and Apple went with Sony 3.5", and when IBM also went 3.5" (abandoning their announced 3.9"), that sealed it. The earliest 3.5" disks (I have a few "Shugart" ones) had no shutter. Then there was a sliding spring loaded shutter, with a place on the disk to labelled "PINCH" (with an arrow) to release the shutter. When full automatic shutters came out, the word "PINCH" was dropped, but the arrow was left on as a reminder of which direction the disk went into the drive, even though it only went in one way (unlike 8" and 5.25" disks that would fit into the drive 8 ways) It is also amusing about the distortions in memory perceptions. I have a [slightly crashed] RAMAC? 24" 100K? platter. I would show it to my students. Whenever it was mentioned later, the students would recall it as being "three or four feet diameter!" Similarly, we often waste time in futile attempts to track down "ten inch" and "twelve inch" floppy stories that were simply misremembrances of 8". (If you don't believe that, FIND ONE) http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/shirt-pocket-diskette is an UNCREDITED direct copy of a post that I made in this group. Lack of attribution isn't very bad. But adding "RICM notes that" on the beginning of one of my paragraphs turns that into theft. (3 of less than 10 words changed) Is the rest of "their" content also similarly plagiarized? Are the pictures of THEIR collection, or unauthorized copies of other people's pictures? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
- Original Message - From: "ben via cctalk" <cctalk@classiccmp.org> To: <cctalk@classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:45 PM Subject: Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...) > On 7/18/2017 2:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: >>> at least they did not glue a bunch of gears on it and call it steam >>> punk... >>> I have run across weird glued and punked items on ebay... what a >>> bunch >>> of AH's >> >> a model 026 punch is already a masterpiece of steam punk. >> >> A model 029, on the other hand, appeals to trekkies. >> >> >> I think that a keypunch rationalized as art needs a clock on it: >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Clock-DT-/262670473087?hash=item3d2861577f:g:kE4AAOSwONBZFFUo >> > > Yes, but the clock runs counter - clockwise. > >> -- >> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com > > Did any one ever use keypunch to tape or 8' floppy? > Ben. --- Those 8' floppies were a PITA to handle and store, but they sure held a lot of data... ;-P
RE: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of ben via cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 10:45 PM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...) On 7/18/2017 2:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: >> at least they did not glue a bunch of gears on it and call it steam >> punk... >> I have run across weird glued and punked items on ebay... what a >> bunch >> of AH's > > a model 026 punch is already a masterpiece of steam punk. > > A model 029, on the other hand, appeals to trekkies. > > > I think that a keypunch rationalized as art needs a clock on it: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Clock-DT-/262670473087?hash=item3d2861577f:g:kE4AAOSwONBZFFUo Yes, but the clock runs counter - clockwise. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com Did any one ever use keypunch to tape or 8' floppy? Ben. If you mean a commercial product in hardware, I doubt it. And, it wouldn't be "keypunch", now, would it? I did, however, develop a system when I was at West Point (many, many years ago) that did the equivalent. I developed a system under UCSD-Pascal running on Terak 8510 Micro Computers that allowed the offline input off data by the input (same as keypunch) operators from the USMA Admissions Office. It all went to 8" disks and at the end of the day the shift supervisor used another program I wrote to transfer it all to the Univac-1100 for overnight batch processing. I even got my picture in the Post Newspaper along with a story about "distributed data processing" coming to USMA. bill
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 18.07.2017 16:27, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < From a seller's point of view, they've got a keypunch that's worth less painted than if it were original, unless you're an art fanatic with lots of space to display such a thing. Me, I'd rather have a clean example to demo/use. The time and cost to strip it to make it presentable just isn't worth it, so at this point I'd wager the larger audience either wants it for parts (in which case $599 is probably also too much) or to the keyboard enthusiasts who probably gave a couple hundred for that KB. -C If I got a painted machine like that - I'd never try to "restore" it to some grey/blue something. I'd consider the psychedelic dessin as original because it was still in use while looking that way. I am sure that there is an (unknown) story behind that. For me it would be very interesting to get to know this story... What are keyboard collectors?!? That sounds really bad. Don't like the idea. And much steampunk is dangerous for collectibles and plain shit. Steampunk might only be justified if you really build really working weird machines and devices - not just mocking up something. So if you come up with a blinking brass steam boat which features a mechanical computer as auto-pilot, I guess that will be fine. :-)
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Pete - Sad about the McGraw-Hill Electronics Which issues are you missing!? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 7/18/2017 9:43:25 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: The paint job doesn't bother me much. I had a working 26 that I donated to CHM. Its things like selling the keyboard then expecting to get more the $20 for the remains. My Teletype version of that is a Western Union 2-B in good shape missing all it key caps and motor. Both pulled to sell to the 'steam punk' crowed. BTW not putting them down at all. I've not met one who would do something like that, its the people who think they can make a sale that do the damage. Other examples of things I am collecting, McGraw-Hill Electronics. Finding a 2 foot stack of issues I don't have that have been gutted for their advertisements. Atwater Kent that worked trashed for the cabinet, and a crappy job at that. Could go on for hours of examples. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > >> at least they did not glue a bunch of gears on it and call it steam >> punk... >> I have run across weird glued and punked items on ebay... what a >> bunch >> of AH's >> > > a model 026 punch is already a masterpiece of steam punk. > > A model 029, on the other hand, appeals to trekkies. > > > I think that a keypunch rationalized as art needs a clock on it: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Clock-DT-/262670473087?hash= > item3d2861577f:g:kE4AAOSwONBZFFUo > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com > >
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
The paint job doesn't bother me much. I had a working 26 that I donated to CHM. Its things like selling the keyboard then expecting to get more the $20 for the remains. My Teletype version of that is a Western Union 2-B in good shape missing all it key caps and motor. Both pulled to sell to the 'steam punk' crowed. BTW not putting them down at all. I've not met one who would do something like that, its the people who think they can make a sale that do the damage. Other examples of things I am collecting, McGraw-Hill Electronics. Finding a 2 foot stack of issues I don't have that have been gutted for their advertisements. Atwater Kent that worked trashed for the cabinet, and a crappy job at that. Could go on for hours of examples. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 1:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > >> at least they did not glue a bunch of gears on it and call it steam >> punk... >> I have run across weird glued and punked items on ebay... what a >> bunch >> of AH's >> > > a model 026 punch is already a masterpiece of steam punk. > > A model 029, on the other hand, appeals to trekkies. > > > I think that a keypunch rationalized as art needs a clock on it: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Clock-DT-/262670473087?hash= > item3d2861577f:g:kE4AAOSwONBZFFUo > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com > >
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
I collect older teleprinters (Teletype, Morkrum-Kleinschmidt, etc) and twice now I've seen where they have had their keyboards removed and the machine put out for scrap. One a quite rare Navy version of the model 28 known as a compact case variation where someone had used what looked like a reciprocating saw to cut the keyboard off. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Ed via cctalkwrote: > or lost in space collectors that rip the b205 front panel from the > machine and leave the rest to be destroyed in fire or flood... > > > > In a message dated 7/18/2017 11:27:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: > > Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory > poachers. > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Re-purposed art or vandalism? > >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 > >>> > >> > > On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > > >> It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. > >> > > > > Earlier than that. > > The seller may have grown up with Peewee Herman, > > but that kind of painting decoration, with such color schemes and > > disjointed themes, wasn't all that uncommon in the late sixties. > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.fin...@gmail.com > > >
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 07/18/2017 09:45 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: Did any one ever use keypunch to tape or 8' floppy? I got a Pertec key to tape machine surplus in about 1982 or so. it had a keyboard and a field of submini lights that lit up the letters, numbers, etc on a panel. You could write 80 character records onto tape, verify the data by retyping it, or read the tape record by record. I pulled the key-to logic out, and there was a pretty simple interface level to the basic tape data logic. I made a mostly software driven interface to my Z-80 CP/M system so i could have mag tape backup. It had a 7" 9-track 800 BPI NRZI tape drive with single-gap head, so you had to back up and reread each block. I did actually run the thing as intended for a few minutes to make sure the drive was working before digging into it. I don't know if anybody else got one of these key to tape machines running, but it wasn't that hard. The surplus outfit seemed to have a bunch of them. I also got a monster from a guy. It was two pieces, one was a massive Honeywell drum printer, which was what I wanted. The other piece was a key to tape machine, although it was more flexible than that. Apparently, State Farm Insurance used it as an off-line printer. You set some switches, mounted a tape, hit a button and it would print the contents of the tape. (I know it was State Farm because the printer had a core memory buffer, and I managed to tease it to print out the last record it had processed. The printer had a format editor in it, so any character could be programmed to come out anywhere on the page. So, it printed out a complete dunning letter to some poor guy. Over the years, I seem to have lost that piece of paper.) But, this set could be used as a key to tape system. Jon
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 7/18/2017 2:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: at least they did not glue a bunch of gears on it and call it steam punk... I have run across weird glued and punked items on ebay... what a bunch of AH's a model 026 punch is already a masterpiece of steam punk. A model 029, on the other hand, appeals to trekkies. I think that a keypunch rationalized as art needs a clock on it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Clock-DT-/262670473087?hash=item3d2861577f:g:kE4AAOSwONBZFFUo Yes, but the clock runs counter - clockwise. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com Did any one ever use keypunch to tape or 8' floppy? Ben.
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Ed said > Re-purposed art or vandalism? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. I would guess that the paint used was acrylic rather than oil enamel. Being water-based it ought to be easier to remove if the casings were taken off and pressure washed, than having to use solvents. Shame about the keyboard being flogged though. Steve
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: at least they did not glue a bunch of gears on it and call it steam punk... I have run across weird glued and punked items on ebay... what a bunch of AH's a model 026 punch is already a masterpiece of steam punk. A model 029, on the other hand, appeals to trekkies. I think that a keypunch rationalized as art needs a clock on it: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Melting-Clock-DT-/262670473087?hash=item3d2861577f:g:kE4AAOSwONBZFFUo -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
at least they did not glue a bunch of gears on it and call it steam punk... I have run across weird glued and punked items on ebay... what a bunch of AH's In a message dated 7/18/2017 7:20:21 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:03 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Re-purposed art or vandalism? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. > > It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. -- Eric Christopherson
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
tell ya about it sometime offlist Mike In a message dated 7/18/2017 12:41:31 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: It wasn't the LIS collectors that did that, it was 20th Century Fox back in the '60s. I'm not aware of a single LIS collector that ever had access to a B205. Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: > or lost in space collectors that rip the b205 front panel from the > machine and leave the rest to be destroyed in fire or flood... > > > > In a message dated 7/18/2017 11:27:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: > > Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory > poachers. > > On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Re-purposed art or vandalism? http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 >>> >> On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: >> >>> It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. >>> >> >> Earlier than that. >> The seller may have grown up with Peewee Herman, >> but that kind of painting decoration, with such color schemes and >> disjointed themes, wasn't all that uncommon in the late sixties. >> >> >> > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.fin...@gmail.com
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Hey Pete! there was also a rage of ripping off the early key tops with the metal rim and celoid over the letters to make women's jewelry... the scoundrels ripped up tty units and typewriters also. These are the teletype units I really like to collect ... those with the old keys.. Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 7/18/2017 12:35:08 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, p...@petelancashire.com writes: I collect older teleprinters (Teletype, Morkrum-Kleinschmidt, etc) and twice now I've seen where they have had their keyboards removed and the machine put out for scrap. One a quite rare Navy version of the model 28 known as a compact case variation where someone had used what looked like a reciprocating saw to cut the keyboard off. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 12:20 PM, Ed via cctalkwrote: or lost in space collectors that rip the b205 front panel from the machine and leave the rest to be destroyed in fire or flood... In a message dated 7/18/2017 11:27:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory poachers. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Re-purposed art or vandalism? >>> _http://www.ebay.com/itm/http://www.e_ (http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943) >>> >> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > >> It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. >> > > Earlier than that. > The seller may have grown up with Peewee Herman, > but that kind of painting decoration, with such color schemes and > disjointed themes, wasn't all that uncommon in the late sixties. > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.fin...@gmail.com
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
It wasn't the LIS collectors that did that, it was 20th Century Fox back in the '60s. I'm not aware of a single LIS collector that ever had access to a B205. Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Ed via cctalk wrote: or lost in space collectors that rip the b205 front panel from the machine and leave the rest to be destroyed in fire or flood... In a message dated 7/18/2017 11:27:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory poachers. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Re-purposed art or vandalism? http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. Earlier than that. The seller may have grown up with Peewee Herman, but that kind of painting decoration, with such color schemes and disjointed themes, wasn't all that uncommon in the late sixties. -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.fin...@gmail.com
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
or lost in space collectors that rip the b205 front panel from the machine and leave the rest to be destroyed in fire or flood... In a message dated 7/18/2017 11:27:44 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory poachers. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Re-purposed art or vandalism? >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 >>> >> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > >> It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. >> > > Earlier than that. > The seller may have grown up with Peewee Herman, > but that kind of painting decoration, with such color schemes and > disjointed themes, wasn't all that uncommon in the late sixties. > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.fin...@gmail.com
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On Jul 18, 2017, at 6:03 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctech wrote: > Re-purposed art or vandalism? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 I guess that depends on whether there's a record of it in the Customer Engineering Incident Reporting Log Book. ok bear. -- until further notice
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On 18 July 2017 at 20:27, Ian Finder via cctalkwrote: > Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory > poachers. I appreciate that bottom-posting just got a bit harder on Gmail, but it still works. I confess to much trepidation at the hate for keyboard collectors, as I am one. I'm typing on a late-1980s Apple Extended on my 2011 Mac mini right now, connected via an ABD->USB convertor. Works beautifully and makes the Mini feel like a proper Mac to me. My desktop PC, meanwhile, has an IBM Model M, as do my work machines. I have half a dozen of these beauties and I adore them. I also have a small cache of DEC 420 keyboards for when I get around to resurrecting my DEC VAXstations. But all of the machines these came off went to new homes with a working (but inferior) keyboard attached. We're not _all_ evil, you know. -- Liam Proven • Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven • Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 • ČR/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Keyboard collectors are a great evil in this world. I liken them to ivory poachers. On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:03 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Re-purposed art or vandalism? >>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 >>> >> > On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > >> It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. >> > > Earlier than that. > The seller may have grown up with Peewee Herman, > but that kind of painting decoration, with such color schemes and > disjointed themes, wasn't all that uncommon in the late sixties. > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.fin...@gmail.com
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Re-purposed art or vandalism? http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. Earlier than that. The seller may have grown up with Peewee Herman, but that kind of painting decoration, with such color schemes and disjointed themes, wasn't all that uncommon in the late sixties.
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
the keyboard is gone On Tue, 18 Jul 2017, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: When they die, I hope whoever got it ends up in that special Hell where keyboard collectors go. It has every keyboard they ever wanted, but they have no arms. They can keep their arms. Just no FINGERS.
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 07/18/2017 08:03 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk wrote: Re-purposed art or vandalism? http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. looks like it might still work! No, I don't think that's vandalism. Heck, I saw some decorated machines in real use that were not too different than that. Jon
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 2017-07-18 12:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: On 7/18/17 8:34 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: the keyboard is gone When they die, I hope whoever got it ends up in that special Hell where keyboard collectors go. It has every keyboard they ever wanted, but they have no arms. Yes agreed, I see lots of terminals and older computers being listed without their keyboard, and my first thought is "What the F^%$ is the point" and the people that strip the chips off boards and saw off the edge connector should also have their own special place as well. Paul.
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Hey, it could be worse. A related auction shows a model 26 (not repainted) being offered for $25,000. Bizarre. paul > On Jul 18, 2017, at 11:34 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk> wrote: > > Oh the horror! > > Note in the auction says that the keyboard is gone, but still wants $599 .99 > and you need to pick it up yourself, u maybe not > > Paul. > > > On 2017-07-18 11:27 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < >> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> On 18.07.2017 16:10, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> I would think it would be worth more in its original condition. >>> I'm not sure. Because it looks cool. And I'm not sure if an old IBM punch >>> is worth that much. And there's quite a possibility that people (users) >>> remember the funny painted punch... >>> >>> I just sent the seller a message calling him a moron if it was him who >>> removed the keyboard! >>> >>> This world is full of stupid idiots :-( >>> >>> >>> From a seller's point of view, they've got a keypunch that's worth less >> painted than if it were original, unless you're an art fanatic with lots of >> space to display such a thing. Me, I'd rather have a clean example to >> demo/use. The time and cost to strip it to make it presentable just isn't >> worth it, so at this point I'd wager the larger audience either wants it >> for parts (in which case $599 is probably also too much) or to the keyboard >> enthusiasts who probably gave a couple hundred for that KB. -C >
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 7/18/17 8:34 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > the keyboard is gone When they die, I hope whoever got it ends up in that special Hell where keyboard collectors go. It has every keyboard they ever wanted, but they have no arms.
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Oh the horror! Note in the auction says that the keyboard is gone, but still wants $599 .99 and you need to pick it up yourself, u maybe not Paul. On 2017-07-18 11:27 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: On 18.07.2017 16:10, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I would think it would be worth more in its original condition. I'm not sure. Because it looks cool. And I'm not sure if an old IBM punch is worth that much. And there's quite a possibility that people (users) remember the funny painted punch... I just sent the seller a message calling him a moron if it was him who removed the keyboard! This world is full of stupid idiots :-( From a seller's point of view, they've got a keypunch that's worth less painted than if it were original, unless you're an art fanatic with lots of space to display such a thing. Me, I'd rather have a clean example to demo/use. The time and cost to strip it to make it presentable just isn't worth it, so at this point I'd wager the larger audience either wants it for parts (in which case $599 is probably also too much) or to the keyboard enthusiasts who probably gave a couple hundred for that KB. -C
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 10:27 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalkwrote: >>> I would think it would be worth more in its original condition. > ... at this point I'd wager the larger audience either wants it > for parts (in which case $599 is probably also too much) That was kind of my thought - would a clean 026 keypunch command a price of $599? I wouldn't think so, but I've been wrong before. -ethan
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 9:14 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 18.07.2017 16:10, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> >> I would think it would be worth more in its original condition. >> > > I'm not sure. Because it looks cool. And I'm not sure if an old IBM punch > is worth that much. And there's quite a possibility that people (users) > remember the funny painted punch... > > I just sent the seller a message calling him a moron if it was him who > removed the keyboard! > > This world is full of stupid idiots :-( > > > From a seller's point of view, they've got a keypunch that's worth less painted than if it were original, unless you're an art fanatic with lots of space to display such a thing. Me, I'd rather have a clean example to demo/use. The time and cost to strip it to make it presentable just isn't worth it, so at this point I'd wager the larger audience either wants it for parts (in which case $599 is probably also too much) or to the keyboard enthusiasts who probably gave a couple hundred for that KB. -C
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On Tue, Jul 18, 2017 at 8:03 AM, E. Groenenberg via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Re-purposed art or vandalism? > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. > > It (literally) looks like something out of Pee-Wee's Playhouse. -- Eric Christopherson
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 18.07.2017 16:10, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: I would think it would be worth more in its original condition. I'm not sure. Because it looks cool. And I'm not sure if an old IBM punch is worth that much. And there's quite a possibility that people (users) remember the funny painted punch... I just sent the seller a message calling him a moron if it was him who removed the keyboard! This world is full of stupid idiots :-(
RE: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
I would think it would be worth more in its original condition. bill From: cctalk [cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] on behalf of E. Groenenberg via cctalk [cctalk@classiccmp.org] Sent: Tuesday, July 18, 2017 9:03 AM To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: Repurposed Art (ahem...) Re-purposed art or vandalism? http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta.
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
On 18.07.2017 15:42, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Ed Groenenberg > Re-purposed art or vandalism? Given that the keyboard was at one point there (in the images), but has now apparently been sold separate, clearly the latter... Stupid idiot who sold the keyboard separately! On the pictures it looks quite undestroyed. My interpretation of the punch: The funny paint was already applied when it was still in use. Then it was put out of use. Paperwork and card stock supply saved together with it. There seems to be no sign of "stupid" painting over moving parts... Philipp :-)
Re: Repurposed Art (ahem...)
> From: Ed Groenenberg > Re-purposed art or vandalism? Given that the keyboard was at one point there (in the images), but has now apparently been sold separate, clearly the latter... Noel
Repurposed Art (ahem...)
Re-purposed art or vandalism? http://www.ebay.com/itm/253015301943 Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta.