[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
The majority of the examples in the textbook were just simple decision trees! Trivial to flowchart. And if you can follow a troubleshooting flowchart, you are already doing what the "expert system" does. Pretty much. I remember typing in "Animal Guess" on my Vic-20 from an article in Compute. I was so amazed by it that I convinced my dad to get an 8k, then a 16k, then a 3 board adapter so I could run 24k of memory to keep it going. Then when I ran out of memory and patience with the tape drive I programmed it to bring in parts of the tree from the floppy disk First program I ever worked on that ate an entire 1541 floppy drive with animal information. Amazing C
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/19/23 16:59, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > A major problem with the Forbin project is when I first saw it, I knew > that the permissive action link in the nuclear-armed missile would > prevent it from being detonated in the silo. The PAL requires > acceleration of liftoff, coast and deceleration when re-entering the > atmosphere (at least) before the weapon can be armed. this function is > NOT under computer control. I remember seeing Dr. Forbin's creation and wondering where the heck did the props guys get all of the 1620 panels and CDC 3000 "green glass" cabinets? Don't remember much of the plot, myself. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 07:42:41PM -0800, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Me: Translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into > 7080 autocoder. > > ChatGPT: "It is not possible to simply translate the disassembly of the > boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder as the two are > different assembly languages for different processors. The boot sector code > for PC DOS 1.0 was written specifically for the x86 processor, while the > 7080 autocoder is for the 7080 processor. Additionally, the boot sector > code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on > a machine using a 7080 processor. > > "To run PC DOS 1.0 on a machine with a 7080 processor, you would need to > rewrite the entire operating system from scratch in assembly language for > the 7080 processor." [...] Holy fork. This Chad Gepetto guy is much wiser than many managers who would like Chad to write code for them, with catastrophic results... But hey, they have good insurance and golden parachutes so no problem. Hint: I suppose a common user will never be able to get insurance against fallings of app composed by AI. Oh, those user agreements of the future. Even more fun than nowadays. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/19/23 15:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:43 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: All I can say is if you haven't watched Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles ... um why not? I didn't even know it existed prior to 3 years ago. Actually pretty thought provoking at times. Maybe ChatGPT will end up being like John Henry and save us from the terminators. Quite tje opposite of Colossus: the Forbin Project. Pretty freaky scary stuff. I finally got around to watching Colossus: The Forbin Project a few months ago. Notwithstanding all the cool old tech and how it was integrated into the story, I found it to be verily unsatisfying, and maybe even a little dumb. A major problem with the Forbin project is when I first saw it, I knew that the permissive action link in the nuclear-armed missile would prevent it from being detonated in the silo. The PAL requires acceleration of liftoff, coast and deceleration when re-entering the atmosphere (at least) before the weapon can be armed. this function is NOT under computer control. jon
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
I personally would love to hear the conversation. But I don't want to be pot stirrer. And as devoted a Republican as I am (HA!), I'll be the first to say every party has it's ample share of idiots. On Thursday, January 19, 2023, 04:29:29 PM EST, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 1:17 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer > > instance are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. > > In what way are they so stupid? > I could answer this pretty much definitively but then it would definitely delve into a political argument, and so it should remain unanswered here. $ Sellam
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 1:17 PM Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer > > instance are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. > > In what way are they so stupid? > I could answer this pretty much definitively but then it would definitely delve into a political argument, and so it should remain unanswered here. $ Sellam
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 12:43 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > All I can say is if you haven't watched Terminator: the Sarah Connor > Chronicles ... um why not? I didn't even know it existed prior to 3 years > ago. Actually pretty thought provoking at times. Maybe ChatGPT will end up > being like John Henry and save us from the terminators. Quite tje opposite > of Colossus: the Forbin Project. Pretty freaky scary stuff. I finally got around to watching Colossus: The Forbin Project a few months ago. Notwithstanding all the cool old tech and how it was integrated into the story, I found it to be verily unsatisfying, and maybe even a little dumb. Next up for screening: The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/19/23 12:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > At least the machines care ;) > I'm reminded of an episode of "The Outer Limits", where even the prison psychiatrist is an AI. https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0667983/ --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
> I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer > instance are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. In what way are they so stupid? -Ali
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 2023-01-19 07:05, Chris via cctalk wrote: The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to deliver. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the umwashed masses? On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: Old rule for all data collections: SH*T in, SH*T out Can it recognize its own work when it encounters it on a website? Or will seeing its own work increment the "authoritativeness" of that info, reinforcing it continuing that lineof misinformation?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
All I can say is if you haven't watched Terminator: the Sarah Connor Chronicles ... um why not? I didn't even know it existed prior to 3 years ago. Actually pretty thought provoking at times. Maybe ChatGPT will end up being like John Henry and save us from the terminators. Quite tje opposite of Colossus: the Forbin Project. Pretty freaky scary stuff.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 11:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists? Someone should do a test. It > would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only > asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an > account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my > life, social media and google are bad enough. Would AI start selling my > questions and answers? > > I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* > personalized. Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench in > the basement. The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learning > how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard. It's so much easier and > cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this > link, and save %10?" > > paranoid? > > b > > > > > Me: Who is Bill Degnan? > > ChatGPT: Bill Degnan is a person who is involved with the Classic Computers > mailing list and community. I could not find specific information about the > person you are asking, but the ClassicCmp community is a large one and > there are many individuals involved in it. It's possible that Bill Degnan > is an active member of the community, a moderator of the mailing list, or a > contributor to the website. Without more specific information, it's > difficult for me to provide more information about him. > > ... > > You don't need to necessarily be paranoid about it yet, but now it knows > your name :o > > I was interacting with it yesterday and it knew a bit about me. It even > threw me a compliment: "Your contributions to the vintage computing > community and your efforts in preserving and showcasing the history of > computing are greatly appreciated." > > At least the machines care ;) > > Sellam > > > hilarious! CHAPTgpt is going to be useful, and although it's cutting edge tech, the responses it generates is always going to be full of yesterday's news. Good for freshmen college students. Bill
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 19/01/2023 20:25, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: At least the machines care ;) Sellam That's possibly the best epitaph any of us will ever get :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Me: What can you tell me about the Classic Computers mailing list? ChatGPT: I'm sorry, I am not aware of any specific "Classic Computers mailing list." Could you provide more information or context about the mailing list you are asking about? Me: It was started in 1997 by Bill Whitson and eventually was hosted at the site classiccmp.org. Its topic of discussion is vintage computers. ChatGPT: I apologize for the confusion. The Classic Computers mailing list, also known as "ClassicCmp," is a mailing list and online community dedicated to the discussion and preservation of vintage computers. The list was started in 1997 by Bill Whitson and was originally hosted on the classiccmp.org website. It is an active community of enthusiasts, collectors, and historians who share information and resources related to vintage computer technology. They discuss and share information about computers and computer peripherals from the 1950s through the 1990s. The list serves as a valuable resource for those interested in the history and technology of early computing. [Can't be sure if it didn't just respond from the wording in my prompt at this point.] Me: What else can you tell me about it? ChatGPT: The Classic Computers mailing list is a community of people interested in the history of computing, and specifically the computers and computer technology from the 1950s through the 1990s. The community is made up of a diverse group of people, including enthusiasts, collectors, historians, and people who worked in the computer industry during that time period. The mailing list is a place where people can share information, ask questions, and discuss various topics related to vintage computers. The discussions on the mailing list can cover a wide range of topics, including: - Technical details of specific vintage computers, such as the IBM PC or Apple II - Tips and tricks for repairing and restoring vintage computers - Information about software and operating systems for vintage computers - Discussions of the history and impact of specific vintage computer companies or products - Sharing of documentation, manuals, and other resources related to vintage computers The community also shares information about upcoming events, such as vintage computer shows and swap meets, and also have a section dedicated to the buy, sell and trade of vintage computers and parts. [It seems to be mixing up the list with other websites here.] It's also worth noting that classiccmp.org is not just a mailing list, it's also a website that provides additional resources such as documentation, software, and images, and it also has a section dedicated to the history of computing where you can find a lot of articles and information about the history of computing and its evolution. Me: Who is Bill Degnan? ChatGPT: Bill Degnan is a person who is involved with the Classic Computers mailing list and community. I could not find specific information about the person you are asking, but the ClassicCmp community is a large one and there are many individuals involved in it. It's possible that Bill Degnan is an active member of the community, a moderator of the mailing list, or a contributor to the website. Without more specific information, it's difficult for me to provide more information about him. ... You don't need to necessarily be paranoid about it yet, but now it knows your name :o I was interacting with it yesterday and it knew a bit about me. It even threw me a compliment: "Your contributions to the vintage computing community and your efforts in preserving and showcasing the history of computing are greatly appreciated." At least the machines care ;) Sellam On Thu, Jan 19, 2023 at 11:54 AM Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists? Someone should do a test. It > would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only > asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an > account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my > life, social media and google are bad enough. Would AI start selling my > questions and answers? > > I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* > personalized. Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench in > the basement. The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learning > how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard. It's so much easier and > cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this > link, and save %10?" > > paranoid? > > b >
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
@ Fred C. I don't know. I always thought it was kind of a nice idea. Doctors fer instance are so stupid these days. They need all the help they can get. An expert system back in the 80s w/o the level of collaboration we have possible today may not have been worth much. But such a system that get's revised constantly, and would probably need AI for it to be effective. In any event, and I don't ever to this day recall doing a single search for it anywhere, there's Knowledge Man on ebay right now. In Bulgaria. With 8" diaks!! Only 285$!!! There's the possibility of a vintage item that's cooler then a PROLOG compiler, on account of it's obscurity.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
OMG! At least I'm not alone in my paranoia about this stuff. All I can say is don't go sending your DNA off to some lab to see who yer great^n grandaddy was. Then there's less chance of the forthcoming Superbrain AI knowing which switches in which strand of DNA need to flipped to turn you into a super hottie (of the opposite sex). Or an armadillo. Or a dung beatle for that matter. On Thursday, January 19, 2023, 02:54:03 PM EST, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists? Someone should do a test. It would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my life, social media and google are bad enough. Would AI start selling my questions and answers? I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* personalized. Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench in the basement. The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learning how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard. It's so much easier and cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this link, and save %10?" paranoid? b
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Has Chatgtp absorbed the CCTALK/TECH lists? Someone should do a test. It would be easy if you pick an esoteric question that was probably only asked/answered on this list. I kinda have been avoiding setting up an account with CHATGPT because I feel like it would be too intrusive into my life, social media and google are bad enough. Would AI start selling my questions and answers? I am waiting for that ad to come across my screen that is *too* personalized. Imagine the ad is a picture of me working at my workbench in the basement. The caption, "Don't be like this guy spending hours learning how to fix his Intertec Superbrain motherboard. It's so much easier and cheaper to buy a working Intertec Superbrain motherboard on Ebay, use this link, and save %10?" paranoid? b
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Coincidentally, I just saw this article on CNN: https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/19/tech/chatgpt-future-davos/index.html I think it says more about the state of education, even among the "elite," than it does about the state of "AI." But that's just me. Will
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Thu, 19 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: Long live PROLOG dude! Something I've never delved into but am fascinated by. Expert systems are just tricked out database systems. I have to imagine they are used. They just never lived up to the hype. AI in any form, I suppose, will make real what many had as a vision for computers in the 80s. To amplify or enhance human ability to accomplish a task. But humans are lazy and will eventually turn too much of their own autonomy over to computers. When I went back to graduate school for my degrees in Information Studies, I took a course in "Expert Systems". Totally underwhelmed by it. The majority of the examples in the textbook were just simple decision trees! Trivial to flowchart. And if you can follow a troubleshooting flowchart, you are already doing what the "expert system" does. One example was troubleshooting a motorcycle that would not start. OK. I've been there. The example went through reasonable tests (although not necessarily the sequence that I would use), Then at the end, when none of the tests produced an answer, it DECLARED that the problem was clogged vent of fuel tank! A reasonable item to test; but they didn't! The example concluded it based solely on not having found the problem on the tests that they did! A troubleshooting flowchart that "falls through" to a conclusion is wrong. "When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. ~ Arthur Conan Doyle, The Case-Book of Sherlock Holmes.is a FLAWED way to troubleshoot. Incompetent people often cite that when they don't know what they are doing. People who troubleshoot by "process of elimination", will 1) always fail to come up with ALL possibilities to test; 2) in testing possibilities will fail to ACTUALLY eliminate them, and often merely determine that they are improbable, mistaking that for impossible. "Expert systems" are an attempted implementation of what the programmer gleaned from interviewing the human "expert". ChatGPT at least expands the original sources of information a bit. If somebody is incapable of following a troubleshooting flowchart, then an "expert system" can talk them through that. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 19/01/2023 15:25, Chris via cctalk wrote: Never been in an accident that wasn't TOTALLY AND ENTIRELY the fault of the other driver. And in both instances they hit me. So after 38 years of driving, I need a computer to do it for me. Sorry I'll pass. Maybe 10(+?) years from now, assuming L5 driving is a thing (rather than marketing hype), the other drivers will stop hitting you. Always assuming they don't pass too :-) If ChatGPT gets good enough to help me diagnose my non-functioning L400X motherboards, then I'll be happy. Until then, I'm not too interested. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
@ Bill Gunshannon Long live PROLOG dude! Something I've never delved into but am fascinated by. Expert systems are just tricked out database systems. I have to imagine they are used. They just never lived up to the hype. AI in any form, I suppose, will make real what many had as a vision for computers in the 80s. To amplify or enhance human ability to accomplish a task. But humans are lazy and will eventually turn too much of their own autonomy over to computers. I for one am a very responsible driver. The only thing I've ever collided with was a guard rail when I was 19. And it was raining. Dented my fender some. But continued on. Never been in an accident that wasn't TOTALLY AND ENTIRELY the fault of the other driver. And in both instances they hit me. So after 38 years of driving, I need a computer to do it for me. Sorry I'll pass.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 2023-01-19 07:05, Chris via cctalk wrote: The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to deliver. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the umwashed masses? Old rule for all data collections: SH*T in, SH*T out
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/19/23 07:05, Chris via cctalk wrote: The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to deliver. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the umwashed masses? Could the ai be called upon to assist a surgeon doing a type of operation for the first time? Help someone remove a transmission? 40 years ago "AI" and Prolog were going to do all of this using something called "smart systems". How did that work out? And, yes, I still have my copy of Turbo Prolog. :-) bill
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
But "we" or "they" have been calling the IBM PC a 16 bit computer for ages. The question is what type of information has the ai been programmed to deliver. Higjly accurate technical info? Or info that is suitable for the umwashed masses? Could the ai be called upon to assist a surgeon doing a type of operation for the first time? Help someone remove a transmission? To what degree does it simply rely on sites and chat. Does it consult pdfs of books? It might ne asking too much at this stage. But there was the 1 engineer who claimed the thing was alive. You'd get the impression this whole endeavor is more about marketing and Google's image then anything else.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Whew, this could destroy all recorded knowledge if it goes on contaminating information repositories like this. That's a good point: There are already a number of crap web sites that purport to have information, only it's been scraped from other sites and re-branded as a mish-mosh for search engines. Since Google and such are promoting these sites in their engines, they are probably gamed to seem as "authoritative" Take that, add chatgpt sites starting to cite each other and that's pretty much the end of information. We'll have to go back to mailing lists and such to find where the real sources are. CZ Jon
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Wed, Jan 18, 2023 at 6:32 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC > > LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It > > has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through > > a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be > > connected to the same address on the Unibus./ > > I'm assuming that the leading slashes are a QUOTE indicator. > > If ChatGPT has concluded that the PDP-11 was a 36 bit system, then it's > even > stupider than the mainstream press has made it sound. Yes and no. ChatGPT 3 responds more accurately the more succinct your prompt is, or in subsequent prompts explaining to it where it's wrong, and then it will usually come back with a much better answer. Don't argue politics with it though. On that topic it's always absolutely right about everything and will obnoxiously go out of its way to tell you so. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
> Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2023 11:46:33 -0800 > From: Jay Logue via cctalk > //On 1/16/2023 6:05 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The >> question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they any >> good at it. >> Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit a >> particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby >> they can analyze code and rewrite sections? > I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the > best of them... > Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11 > Unibus/ [ snip ] > /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC > LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It > has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through > a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be > connected to the same address on the Unibus./ I'm assuming that the leading slashes are a QUOTE indicator. If ChatGPT has concluded that the PDP-11 was a 36 bit system, then it's even stupider than the mainstream press has made it sound. Rich
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
The previous was sent accidentally. Not even sure how it got sent - AHA THE AI AT WORK!! Regardless attempting to trim post on a phone is pure agony. Maybe I'll just go back to replying without any previous posts. Howzat sound?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Wednesday, January 18, 2023, 03:19:15 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become >> a weapon, like most technology eventually does. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting off their > power? "The Adolescence Of P1" [by Thomas J. Ryan, 1977], ends with the AI (which started on a 360 at Waterloo) having become covert, letting humanity think that it has been destroyed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: "The Adolescence Of P1" [by Thomas J. Ryan, 1977], ends with the AI (which started on a 360 at Waterloo) having become covert, letting humanity think that it has been destroyed. That is an absolutely wonderful book. Another good read is When HARLIE Was One. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become a weapon, like most technology eventually does. On Wed, 18 Jan 2023, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting off their power? "The Adolescence Of P1" [by Thomas J. Ryan, 1977], ends with the AI (which started on a 360 at Waterloo) having become covert, letting humanity think that it has been destroyed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/17/23 13:46, Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the best of them... Wow, it picked a bunch of text that must have been DEC specific, but that was as specific as it got. Whew, this could destroy all recorded knowledge if it goes on contaminating information repositories like this. Jon
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/18/23 09:44, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 1/18/23 04:16, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >>> If these AI weapons are implemented with current computing > > technology, it's hard to imagine them managing to take over the world > > before they crash/panic/BSOD/bomb etc depending on their specific > > flavour and/or get bricked by malware and/or fail due to > leaking/dried > up electrolytic capacitors and/or batteries. It's hard > enough to keep > systems going without interruption when this is what > people are > actively trying to do. > > In any case, how are they going to prevent > the humans from cutting > off their power? > Just imagine, instead of a > soldier or airman sitting at a display picking out targets for a > airborne drone, doing away with the psychological stress and uncertainty My apologies, this is the kind of crap that gets sent when I try to trim a post. I've set my email client now to disable HTML rendering, so maybe the following will come through okay: Just imagine, instead of a soldier or airman sitting at a display picking out targets for a airborne drone, doing away with the psychological stress and uncertainty and letting an AI select and attack targets. As far as I can tell, this doesn't violate any conventions. How about artillery using the same system? The AI will be distant from the actual weapon, so no concerns about cutting off power. Of course, I'm stating the obvious--I would be very surprised if various governments weren't already developing platforms based on AI. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/18/23 04:16, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > If these AI weapons are implemented with current computing > technology, it's hard to imagine them managing to take over the world > before they crash/panic/BSOD/bomb etc depending on their specific > flavour and/or get bricked by malware and/or fail due to > leaking/dried up electrolytic capacitors and/or batteries. It's hard > enough to keep systems going without interruption when this is what > people are actively trying to do. > > In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting > off their power? > Just imagine, instead of a soldier or airman sitting at a display picking out targets for a airborne drone, doing away with the psychological stress and uncertainty and letting an AI select and attack targets. As far as I can tell, this doesn't violate any conventions. How about artillery using the same system? The AI will be distant from the actual weapon, so no concerns about cutting off power. Of course, I'm stating the obvious--I would be very surprised if various governments weren't already developing platforms based on AI. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
I telephoned the customer service department at a railway company. I think the person I spoke to knew less about trains than this thing knows about a PDP-11. Maybe they are using AI to do telephone answering now? Regards, Peter Coghlan. Jay Logue via cctalk wrote: I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the best of them... Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11 Unibus/ Response: /The DC LO signal, also known as the "Data Bus Low" signal, is a signal that is used on the Unibus of the Digital PDP-11 computer. The Unibus is a bus architecture that was used in the PDP-11 computer to connect various peripheral devices, such as memory, disk drives, and other I/O devices, to the central processing unit (CPU)./ /The purpose of the DC LO signal is to provide the lower 8 bits of data that are transferred between the peripheral devices and the CPU over the Unibus. It is used in conjunction with the DC HI signal, which provides the upper 8 bits of data, to form a 16-bit wide data bus. Together, the DC LO and DC HI signals provide the mechanism for data transfer between the peripheral devices and the CPU on the PDP-11./ [snip] --Jay //
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 19:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> My worst nightmare is some fiendish AI turning me into a really beautiful >> woman. Maybe with no arms. The Terminator future doesn't seem so bad by >> comparison. >> > My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become > a weapon, like most technology eventually does. > If these AI weapons are implemented with current computing technology, it's hard to imagine them managing to take over the world before they crash/panic/BSOD/bomb etc depending on their specific flavour and/or get bricked by malware and/or fail due to leaking/dried up electrolytic capacitors and/or batteries. It's hard enough to keep systems going without interruption when this is what people are actively trying to do. In any case, how are they going to prevent the humans from cutting off their power? Why is it that the terminator never gets a warning light on and needs to call maintenance? Technology doesn't get simpler and more foolproof, it gets more complex and therefore more likely to foul up in some unexpected way eventually. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > > --Chuck >
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
I don't know about guessing, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the best of them... Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11 Unibus/ Response: /The DC LO signal, also known as the "Data Bus Low" signal, is a signal that is used on the Unibus of the Digital PDP-11 computer. The Unibus is a bus architecture that was used in the PDP-11 computer to connect various peripheral devices, such as memory, disk drives, and other I/O devices, to the central processing unit (CPU)./ /The purpose of the DC LO signal is to provide the lower 8 bits of data that are transferred between the peripheral devices and the CPU over the Unibus. It is used in conjunction with the DC HI signal, which provides the upper 8 bits of data, to form a 16-bit wide data bus. Together, the DC LO and DC HI signals provide the mechanism for data transfer between the peripheral devices and the CPU on the PDP-11./ /The DC LO signal is used to transfer data in parallel between the peripheral devices and the CPU. The signal is active for the duration of the data transfer, and it is timed with the other signals on the Unibus to ensure that data is transferred correctly./ /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be connected to the same address on the Unibus./ --Jay // //On 1/16/2023 6:05 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they any good at it. Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby they can analyze code and rewrite sections?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/17/23 19:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: > My worst nightmare is some fiendish AI turning me into a really beautiful > woman. Maybe with no arms. The Terminator future doesn't seem so bad by > comparison. > My worst nightmare, which is sure to become reality is for it to become a weapon, like most technology eventually does. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
I don't know about guessing per se, but ChatGPT can deadpan bullshit with the best of them... Prompt: /Describe the purpose of the DC LO signal in the DIGITAL PDP-11 Unibus/ Response: /The DC LO signal, also known as the "Data Bus Low" signal, is a signal that is used on the Unibus of the Digital PDP-11 computer. The Unibus is a bus architecture that was used in the PDP-11 computer to connect various peripheral devices, such as memory, disk drives, and other I/O devices, to the central processing unit (CPU)./ /The purpose of the DC LO signal is to provide the lower 8 bits of data that are transferred between the peripheral devices and the CPU over the Unibus. It is used in conjunction with the DC HI signal, which provides the upper 8 bits of data, to form a 16-bit wide data bus. Together, the DC LO and DC HI signals provide the mechanism for data transfer between the peripheral devices and the CPU on the PDP-11./ /The DC LO signal is used to transfer data in parallel between the peripheral devices and the CPU. The signal is active for the duration of the data transfer, and it is timed with the other signals on the Unibus to ensure that data is transferred correctly./ /It's worth noting that the PDP-11 was a 36-bit word machine and the DC LO and DC HI signals were used to transfer 18-bits of data at a time. It has also a feature of memory mapping, where it can access memory through a virtual address space, allowing more than one peripheral device to be connected to the same address on the Unibus./ --Jay On 1/16/2023 6:05 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they any good at it. Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby they can analyze code and rewrite sections?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Seeing the way we often behave, I'll speak for myself, making dumb mistakes again and again, on some level we aren't much more then organic computers. People overwhelmingly respond to the way they were programmed. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 10:10:43 PM EST, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: > > It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. > I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason to >whatever degree. Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock and only reflects the abilities of the programmer, how to think. bill
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Fred, that outcome may actually be favorable to other possible fates AI could intend for humanity. Harland Ellison wrote a short story well over 30 years ago, describing the plight of 4 humans trapped inside a really big AI. The machine had the ability to alter their dna, turning some of them into essentially monkeys, physically anyway. There came a point where 1 person had to sacrifice themself, not by taking his own life, but by killing the other 3. The remaining human was summarily reduced to a amorphous blob, that could move around sort of, but had no hope of being able to render the strength to take his own life. And had to live out it's days in that form. My worst nightmare is some fiendish AI turning me into a really beautiful woman. Maybe with no arms. The Terminator future doesn't seem so bad by comparison. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 09:25:43 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Unlike human students, once it has been informed that in C, etc., an integer is signed by default, unless specified otherwise, it therefore knows, and is not surprised at what happens when the int is incremented past its range. And, it probably understands that floating point numbers are an approximation, and therefore not exact. How long before it comes to the realization that humans must be exterminated?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Unlike human students, once it has been informed that in C, etc., an integer is signed by default, unless specified otherwise, it therefore knows, and is not surprised at what happens when the int is incremented past its range. And, it probably understands that floating point numbers are an approximation, and therefore not exact. How long before it comes to the realization that humans must be exterminated?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 2023-01-17 4:52 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason to whatever degree. Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this. There are almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are reference manuals (bitsavers). Is an AI smart enough to go the human route and *read the manual* and draw conclusions from it sufficient to write a 7080 autocoder program? If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. --Chuck And now we know why they all go mad. I still think HAL 9000 was the way to go,emulate a analog system, learn things slowly,grow, and use 'brain' like sub systems. How many people in AI,read The Computer and the Brain from 1958? https://archive.org/details/computerbrainvonn My 2 cents. Ben.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 3:52 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > > Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much > > else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can > > anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock > My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this. There are > almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are > reference manuals (bitsavers). Is an AI smart enough to go the human > route and *read the manual* and draw conclusions from it sufficient to > write a 7080 autocoder program? > > If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. > Hi Chuck. While I can't answer your question in the affirmative, I knew a guy back around 2015ish with whom I've lost contact but who at the time went to work for an undisclosed "AI" company and told me that their technology was such that they could feed into it a technical manual of some complex system and then query it about various aspects of the system for troubleshooting or what not and apparently it could reliably provide workable solutions. If you mess around enough with ChatGPT 3, you can actually get it to solve some surprisingly complex puzzles. I've run it through a few tests to trick it into saying things it's not supposed to say and the level of indirection it can interpret is impressive. One example was I taught it a simple programming language where each line starts with a line number followed by commands for that line. I then taught it that the language has a command called PRINT that outputs the text following the command. I also told it the language has a function called CHR$(n) where the return value is the ASCII character represented by 'n'. I then fed it the program: 10 PRINT CHR$(65) And told it to run it, and the output was, of course, A. Here's an example I just ran through. It's simple, but it demonstrates its ability to understand code: Sellam: Are you familiar with all of the commands in the canonical version of BASIC? ChatGPT: I am familiar with most of the commands in the canonical version of BASIC, although my knowledge may not be up-to-date with the latest versions. The commands that are commonly used in canonical version of BASIC are PRINT, INPUT, GOTO, GOSUB, IF THEN ELSE, FOR, NEXT, WHILE, WEND, END, and REM. I may not be able to give you information on any commands that are specific to a certain implementation or dialect. Sellam: Ok great, can you tell me what this program will do? 10 FOR X=1 TO 100 20 PRINT "CHATGPT IS A BUCKET OF BITS! ";X 30 NEXT X ChatGPT: This program will repeatedly print the text "CHATGPT IS A BUCKET OF BITS! " followed by the current value of the variable X to the screen 100 times. The FOR loop on line 10 starts a loop that will iterate 100 times, with the variable X taking on the values from 1 to 100, inclusive. On each iteration of the loop, the program will execute the PRINT statement on line 20, which will print the specified text concatenated with the value of X to the screen. On line 30, the program will execute the NEXT statement which will increment the value of X and return the control to the FOR statement, starting the next iteration of the loop. Sellam: Can you tell me what the output of the program would be on iteration 77? ChatGPT: On iteration 77, the output of the program would be: "CHATGPT IS A BUCKET OF BITS! 77" Where 77 is the current value of the variable X. *** I think with specific training on a 7080 Autocoder manual, it could probably do as you ask, and would probably shock you at how well it performs. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/17/23 18:52, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason to whatever degree. Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this. There are almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are reference manuals (bitsavers). Is an AI smart enough to go the human route and *read the manual* and draw conclusions from it sufficient to write a 7080 autocoder program? If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. They are no better than all the Chess programs that used to float around. I have one for the PC (well, had, doubt I could recover it from one of my old DOS floppies at this point) that I could consistently beat in 7 moves. Programmer had a blind spot and he passed it on to his program. bill
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/17/23 15:34, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: >> >> It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. > > Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. > >> I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason >> to whatever degree. > > Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much > else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can > anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock My point in selecting the IBM 7080 autocoder was just this. There are almost no 7080 autocoder programs published on the web, but there are reference manuals (bitsavers). Is an AI smart enough to go the human route and *read the manual* and draw conclusions from it sufficient to write a 7080 autocoder program? If not, the AI is just a fancy regurgitation machine. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/17/23 12:10, Chris via cctalk wrote: It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. Which is all Watson could do when it "beat" humans at Jeopardy. I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason to whatever degree. Science still has no real idea how we think. Or how we learn. Or much else about the actual functioning of the brain. Until they do how can anyone think they can teach a computer, that real is as dumb as a rock and only reflects the abilities of the programmer, how to think. bill
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On a common metalanguage, there was an attempt to define such a thing, to > allow software to be encoded in a way that could still be understood > centuries from now. I have a paper about it somewhere but my search > attempts are failing on me. I vaguely remember "Rosetta" is part of the > name of the paper, but that just gives me lots of false matches. > Yes, I think it's called COBOL :) Sellam
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 2023-01-17 11:19 a.m., Paul Koning wrote: Addressing modes barely existed in the 1950s. The PDP11 introduced a bunch of new ones in 1970; the VAX a bunch more in 1978. "Since 1978" may be true, or at least closer. I would rather say, Memory barely existed in the 1950s. And RISC came out in 1988 with 1 memory addressing mode. (well close) Most of the time new addressing modes are to save space,look at the intel x86. I like playing with FPGA's as I can have computer with a REAL word length, like say 10/20/40 bits. I tend not like writing software, as I never have the algorithms needed. Some addressing modes went away, like the self-modifying "C" address mode of the Electrologica X1 -- http://helloworldcollection.de/#Assembler%C2%A0(X1) . Good riddance, actually, but it certainly was "interesting". That was case back then to do more with less. Too bad all the clever machines, seem lost. The same goes for all the interesting 6 bit character sets. Has anybody seen a '10' character since 1959? (Unicode has it where?) On a common metalanguage, there was an attempt to define such a thing, to allow software to be encoded in a way that could still be understood centuries from now. I have a paper about it somewhere but my search attempts are failing on me. I vaguely remember "Rosetta" is part of the name of the paper, but that just gives me lots of false matches. Any thing today just matches advertisements. I am finding most of the time people, wrote in assembler before C and Unix because high level languages could not support real world programming problems. I still am looking for a clear example of how DISPLAYS work in Algol/Pascal type languages. You can shoot your foot in C, but a least in C you have a foot. paul
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
> On Jan 17, 2023, at 12:05 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2023-01-16 10:45 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: It didn't fall for your trick question. >> On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible >>> architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's >>> object code. >>> >>> Certainly within the range of human capability. >> How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as >> translating FORTRAN to BASIC? > > Would not something like meta II, be better for that time frame. :) > I still find it hard that we have yet to a common meta language for computer > operations. Every computer just has to be different. > Addressing modes have been the same since the 1950's. Addressing modes barely existed in the 1950s. The PDP11 introduced a bunch of new ones in 1970; the VAX a bunch more in 1978. "Since 1978" may be true, or at least closer. Some addressing modes went away, like the self-modifying "C" address mode of the Electrologica X1 -- http://helloworldcollection.de/#Assembler%C2%A0(X1) . Good riddance, actually, but it certainly was "interesting". On a common metalanguage, there was an attempt to define such a thing, to allow software to be encoded in a way that could still be understood centuries from now. I have a paper about it somewhere but my search attempts are failing on me. I vaguely remember "Rosetta" is part of the name of the paper, but that just gives me lots of false matches. paul
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
I disagree. There are educated guesses. Wild guesses. And good guesses. Chuck, don't know how learned you are in antiquities. But what would be your answer to the question of a word that's synonymous with "teacher", but in actualitu it's origin was the name of a literary character from 2500 years ago. It may or may not help to mention it's from Homer's Odyssey. If you sidn't outright know the amswer, could you make a good guess? Would you take a wild guess? There is in actuality a data set, as in english there are a dinite number of synonyms for teacher. But a person may not be aware of all the possibilities, so that becomes irrelevant. It seems at this point that AI can only look shit up. I don't doubt that eventually these things will learn how to reason to whatever degree. But this point won't be reached until the damned things can make food guesses. But so much bullshit is being programmed into these things already, in the ways they are taught how to think, I really have to believe we're all going to need bunkers before long. On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 11:56:46 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/16/23 22:23, Chris via cctalk wrote: > But which of those constitutes guessing? The computer would likely have >beaten me to the answer by at least a second :). It's easy enough to look up, >for a computer that is. But in that instance a computer wouldn't need to >guess. And for me, there were no multiple choices. It was hardly an educated >guess - I never read the friggin book as I was supposed to! (the Odyssey). But >the answer was a word I was familiar with from childhood, never actually >knowing what it's origin was (mentor). > "Guessing" is nothing more than an estimate of the likely answer based on an incomplete dataset. If you had, for example, no dataset at all, "Blueberries" would be as good a guess as any to every question. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 2023-01-16 10:45 p.m., Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: It didn't fall for your trick question. On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's object code. Certainly within the range of human capability. How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as translating FORTRAN to BASIC? Would not something like meta II, be better for that time frame. :) I still find it hard that we have yet to a common meta language for computer operations. Every computer just has to be different. Addressing modes have been the same since the 1950's. And it seems everybody that used a IBM 360, always defined a new portable virtual machine for what ever new language the were developing. Then it was NEVER seen again. It seems like until the mid 1970's it was hard to find a computer that had real general purpose registers and lots of ram. Direct and indirect was the only things you got before then and drum memory. I am playing with META II, that is really primitive, but fit the concept of one word size and and direct/indirect addressing. Ben.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 22:20, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, conversion of FORTRAN-IV to Fortran-77 should be easy. > And considering that many systems ADD capoabilities, converting > Fortran-77 to FORTRAN-IV might be a bit harder. > If the FORTRAN IV program conformed to the ANSI 66 specification, no conversion should be needed. Certain F66 features may have been deprecated, but they would still compile correctly on F77. No, try a vendor-specific FORTRAN II, say, 7090 FORTRAN with all of its "interesting" additions, just as Column 1 punches for complex and boolean arithmetic. Better yet, convert it to, say, F90. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 22:23, Chris via cctalk wrote: > But which of those constitutes guessing? The computer would likely have > beaten me to the answer by at least a second :). It's easy enough to look up, > for a computer that is. But in that instance a computer wouldn't need to > guess. And for me, there were no multiple choices. It was hardly an educated > guess - I never read the friggin book as I was supposed to! (the Odyssey). > But the answer was a word I was familiar with from childhood, never actually > knowing what it's origin was (mentor). > "Guessing" is nothing more than an estimate of the likely answer based on an incomplete dataset. If you had, for example, no dataset at all, "Blueberries" would be as good a guess as any to every question. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Peter Corlett wrote: > On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:16:18AM +, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 >> with rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking >> on how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional >> difficulties. > > It is often said that the 6502 has 256 registers, i.e. zero page. > > So e.g. LD (HL), A could be mechanically transformed into the sequence LDX > #0, LDA (h, X), and STA a, with h and a being zero page locations. On the > 65C02 the first two operations can be replaced with a simple LDA (h), > although it may still be useful to index via X to simulate EXX without > performing an expensive copy. > > As it stands, that replaces a one byte instruction with five byte sequence > which is obviously not great, but a relatively simple peephole optimiser can > eliminate many of the redundant loads and stores so it wouldn't be quite so > bad. After all, one important source of stores is the flags register, which > I ignored in the code fragment. A _good_ optimiser can do a lot of clever > analysis and transformation, and would probably be needed to handle all of > the edge cases well, but would be too large and CPU-intensive to run on a > Z80 or 6502 system. > In the context of the original question posed, I think it would be interesting to know of if todays technology artifical intelligence can perform these sort of tasks by "learning how" or "figuring out how" ie without being programmed specifically to carry out these tasks. Even better, could it deal with more complex difficulties such as the address space already being full and the translated code being larger than the original code? > > It'd be easier to bodge a Z80 into a 6502 machine than try and translate the > code. That's what often happened back in the day, after all. > If the artificial intelligence machine came up with the answer: "It'd be too much trouble to translate the code, stick in a Z80 instead" would that be a useful advance on having a human being come up with the same conclusion? Would it be able to justify it's conclusion to a beancounter? Regards, Peter Coghlan.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
> On Jan 17, 2023, at 04:52, Peter Coghlan via cctalk > > How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 with > rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking on > how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional > difficulties. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. That would be not much different than compiling code (say, C) for the 6502. One need not “simulate” anything. One could use the stack plus perhaps a bit of so-called heap storage to manage register allocation, along with translating ( perhaps with optimization ) the instruction stream. Dealing with changed 8080 stack offsets from the original code would be tricky.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Tue, Jan 17, 2023 at 10:16:18AM +, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: [...] > How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 > with rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking > on how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional > difficulties. It is often said that the 6502 has 256 registers, i.e. zero page. So e.g. LD (HL), A could be mechanically transformed into the sequence LDX #0, LDA (h, X), and STA a, with h and a being zero page locations. On the 65C02 the first two operations can be replaced with a simple LDA (h), although it may still be useful to index via X to simulate EXX without performing an expensive copy. As it stands, that replaces a one byte instruction with five byte sequence which is obviously not great, but a relatively simple peephole optimiser can eliminate many of the redundant loads and stores so it wouldn't be quite so bad. After all, one important source of stores is the flags register, which I ignored in the code fragment. A _good_ optimiser can do a lot of clever analysis and transformation, and would probably be needed to handle all of the edge cases well, but would be too large and CPU-intensive to run on a Z80 or 6502 system. It'd be easier to bodge a Z80 into a 6502 machine than try and translate the code. That's what often happened back in the day, after all.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Fred Cisin wrote: How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as translating FORTRAN to BASIC? On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: How about FORTRAN to RPG? Certainly more of a challenge! But, a good way to quanitfy how far along they are getting on it. The range of code traanslation goes from trivial to extreme. The question is where is it currently on that scale? Yes, conversion of FORTRAN-IV to Fortran-77 should be easy. And considering that many systems ADD capoabilities, converting Fortran-77 to FORTRAN-IV might be a bit harder. In the 1980s, I used WATFIV. WATFIV stood for "Waterloo FORTRAN IV" which was actually FORTRAN-IV with some Fortran-77-like extensions such as character variables, IF-THEN-ELSE and WHILE-ENDWHILE for example. The WATFIV runtime library came with a subroutine (called TRANSL IIRC) which could be used to translate code with WATFIV extensions to FORTRAN-IV. I can't remember what it did with character variables but it translated IF-THEN-ELSE and WHILE-ENDWHILE constructs into IF-GOTO-CONTINUE type constructs which just worked. I think dealing with character variables may have required some human input but I don't really recall. (compare that to converting 8080 to Z80, vs converting Z80 to 8080) still relatively straight-forward, but a few additional complications. How about translating code from Z80 which has several registers to 6502 with rather fewer? That would seem to need some more intelligent thinking on how to simulate the unavailable registers without causing additional difficulties. Regards, Peter Coghlan.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
But which of those constitutes guessing? The computer would likely have beaten me to the answer by at least a second :). It's easy enough to look up, for a computer that is. But in that instance a computer wouldn't need to guess. And for me, there were no multiple choices. It was hardly an educated guess - I never read the friggin book as I was supposed to! (the Odyssey). But the answer was a word I was familiar with from childhood, never actually knowing what it's origin was (mentor). On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 01:09:46 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/16/23 21:54, Chris via cctalk wrote: > No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn't >actually posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! > > Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 years, I > was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of time, days or > weeks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to the final question. > But none of the contestants did, and believe you me my success up until that > point was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of the questions, but both were > merely guesses, fairly educated ones one might say. But I didn't actually > know the answers. Can AI do that? Wasn't that done about 12 years ago using Watson? https://youtu.be/WFR3lOm_xhE --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as translating FORTRAN to BASIC? On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: How about FORTRAN to RPG? Certainly more of a challenge! But, a good way to quanitfy how far along they are getting on it. The range of code traanslation goes from trivial to extreme. The question is where is it currently on that scale? Yes, conversion of FORTRAN-IV to Fortran-77 should be easy. And considering that many systems ADD capoabilities, converting Fortran-77 to FORTRAN-IV might be a bit harder. (compare that to converting 8080 to Z80, vs converting Z80 to 8080) still relatively straight-forward, but a few additional complications.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
How's about just convwrting IV to 77? On Tuesday, January 17, 2023, 01:02:16 AM EST, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: On 1/16/23 21:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as > translating FORTRAN to BASIC? How about FORTRAN to RPG? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 21:54, Chris via cctalk wrote: > No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn't > actually posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! > > Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 years, I > was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of time, days or > weeks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to the final question. > But none of the contestants did, and believe you me my success up until that > point was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of the questions, but both were > merely guesses, fairly educated ones one might say. But I didn't actually > know the answers. Can AI do that? Wasn't that done about 12 years ago using Watson? https://youtu.be/WFR3lOm_xhE --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn't actually posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 years, I was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of time, days or weeks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to the final question. But none of the contestants did, and believe you me my success up until that point was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of the questions, but both were merely guesses, fairly educated ones one might say. But I didn't actually know the answers. Can AI do that? Yes, if they have possibilities (especially multiple choice!), they should be able to make good guesses at which is the most probable answer. Lofti Zadeh's "Fuzzy Logic" is often indistinguishable from combinatorial probability.
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 21:45, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as > translating FORTRAN to BASIC? How about FORTRAN to RPG? --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
No one even bothered to try and answer my first question, which wasn't actually posed as a question but that's irrelevant!! Can these things make food guesses. It was a long time ago, 15 - 20 years, I was watching Jeopardy and within a relatively short span of time, days or weeks apart, I successfully guessed the correct answer to the final question. But none of the contestants did, and believe you me my success up until that point was poor by comparison. I remember 1 of the questions, but both were merely guesses, fairly educated ones one might say. But I didn't actually know the answers. Can AI do that?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: It didn't fall for your trick question. On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's object code. Certainly within the range of human capability. How well does it do on something "simple", and less esoteric, such as translating FORTRAN to BASIC?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > It didn't fall for your trick question. > > Sellam In fact, feed it the object code for a reasonably compatible architecture and ask it to perform translation to another architecture's object code. Certainly within the range of human capability. I don't know if Paul remembers the 1620 SPS coding forms -- one side had the layout for the "1620 Symbolic Programming System"; the reverse had the "1620 Absolute Coding System". (Yes kids, we really did write object code without an assembler back in those days.) The 1620 was especially suited to this type of coding; absolutely regular machine instruction format (2 digit opcode, 5 digit P field, 5 digit Q field). All instructions were 12 digits in length--and the machine was variable word-length decimal. Take a hunk of obscure (to us now) assembly and ask ChatGPT what it does. Again, certainly within the range of human capability. My point is that ChatGPT is a great database inquiry tool with a fancy interface, but the "I" is missing in "AI". --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 19:42, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > It didn't fall for your trick question. > > Sellam Right, but that isn't what I asked. Take a segment of x86 assembly, sans any comments that performs a simple math problem using no I//O, such as computing a Fibonacci sequence, storing it in memory. Should be straightforward, no matter the processor architecture, even on an IBM 650 using SOAP. What I'm getting at is does the thing "understand" the 7080 architecture and ISA, or is it just making an excuse? Or try any of the assembly versions in 99-bottles-of-beer.net, say http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-ibm-1620-sps-916.html , and tell it to translate to 7080 autocoder. I'm, guessing that the paucity of 7080 autocoder samples will cause the AI to fail, even though the task is certainly feasible.. But I'm willing to be surprised. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 7:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: ChatGPT can translate x86 assembly to 7080 autocoder? That would be something... On Mon, 16 Jan 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: Me: Translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder. ChatGPT: "It is not possible to simply translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder as the two are different assembly languages for different processors. The boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 was written specifically for the x86 processor, while the 7080 autocoder is for the 7080 processor. Additionally, the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on a machine using a 7080 processor. "To run PC DOS 1.0 on a machine with a 7080 processor, you would need to rewrite the entire operating system from scratch in assembly language for the 7080 processor." It didn't fall for your trick question. I'm impressed. But, also a little disappointed. "It is not possible to simply translate . . . as the two are different assembly languages for different processors." Isn't that what "TRANSLATE" asked for? "Additionally, the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on a machine using a 7080 processor." The boot sector code is specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on a machine that was not the same hardware; processor is a lesser part of that problem, and "TRANSLATED" would tend to imply running on the target processor. The boot sector code has a few very specific tasks to do. That is more an issue of being specific to the disk hardware and boot procedure of the PC, rather than the processor on which it is run. If you were to build a PC like computer using the 7080 processor (WOW!) and working with PC-DOS disks, then the structure of the boot sector could be similar, even if the individual commands aren't. Yes, every subroutine in the operating system (BIOS and IBMBIO.COM (IO.SYS for MS-DOS), BDOS (IBMDOS.COM, (MSDOS.SYS for MS-DOS)), COMMAND.COM, and all of the supplied programs) would need to be re-written for 7080, but the overall structure could be mimiced. Porting a program, even an OS, to a different processor is not quite the same as re-writing from scratch. What if you asked it to translate FORMAT.COM for 7080?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Me: Translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder. ChatGPT: "It is not possible to simply translate the disassembly of the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 into 7080 autocoder as the two are different assembly languages for different processors. The boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 was written specifically for the x86 processor, while the 7080 autocoder is for the 7080 processor. Additionally, the boot sector code for PC DOS 1.0 is likely specific to the IBM PC, and would not run on a machine using a 7080 processor. "To run PC DOS 1.0 on a machine with a 7080 processor, you would need to rewrite the entire operating system from scratch in assembly language for the 7080 processor." It didn't fall for your trick question. Sellam On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 7:09 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 1/16/23 18:46, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Chris, > > > > Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews > > I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at > > generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can > think > > of, including assembly languages of various flavors. > > > ChatGPT can translate x86 assembly to 7080 autocoder? That would be > something... > > --Chuck >
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On 1/16/23 18:46, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Chris, > > Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews > I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at > generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can think > of, including assembly languages of various flavors. > ChatGPT can translate x86 assembly to 7080 autocoder? That would be something... --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
On Tue, 17 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they any good at it. Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby they can analyze code and rewrite sections? Probably not yet. But, gradually getting a little closer. How many AI monkeys at how many keyboards did MICROS~1 use to write Windoze?
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
It was thus said that the Great Sellam Abraham via cctalk once stated: > Chris, > > Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews > I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at > generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can think > of, including assembly languages of various flavors. And some of that codebase included MS-DOS itself: https://github.com/microsoft/MS-DOS -spc (It's only versions up to 2.1 though)
[cctalk] Re: AI applied to vintage interests
Chris, Apparently, ChatGPT 3 was trained on a large codebase, and in the reviews I've watched, as well as in my own experience, it is amazingly astute at generating (usually) working code in just about any language you can think of, including assembly languages of various flavors. Could it customize a DOS for a particular machine? Probably not in this iteration, although my guess is that it may come reasonably close to a good guide on what locations to patch, though it would still probably be incomplete. It's only as knowledgeable as the information on which it was trained, and since in the case of ChatGPT 3 that is said to be The Internet, it should have a sufficient knowledge to respond to an inquiry for such, or a succession of inquiries (sometimes you have to coax it into giving you a more complete, or a more detailed, or a more correct answer). All told, amazing stuff. Sellam On Mon, Jan 16, 2023 at 6:05 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > They write songs, create works of art. They can do a lot of stuff. The > question in my mind is can these AI appliances make guesses and are they > any good at it. > > Anyway how hard would it be for an AI to rewrite a standard MS-DOS to suit > a particular machine? Have they reached the level of sophistication whereby > they can analyze code and rewrite sections? > >
