Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Rey Bango
Thanks, Howie. Rey ForumSpot.org - Curator [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Howie Hamlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:27 AM Subject: Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange > Purchases on or after Dec 15, 1999 are covered for

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Howie Hamlin
Purchases on or after Dec 15, 1999 are covered for a refund - it's in the FAQ: http://www.forumspot.org/faqs/faqd.cfm Howie - Original Message - From: Peter Tilbrook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:15 AM Subject: RE: new look Allaire Developers'

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Rey Bango
Peter, Here's the official word from Allaire: "Allaire Corp. will only issue refunds for purchases [of Allaire Forums] made since December 15th, 1999. This refund opportunity will expire on June 30, 2000." For more information, just follow the link below: http://www.forumspot.org/faqs/ Take c

RE: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Peter Tilbrook
Will Allaire be refunding people who paid for Forums? One of our clients, who paid the full price of around AUD$750.00 (around US$434) not too long ago, is bound to find out that it is now open source. Cheers! -- Peter Tilbrook SafetyWeb Internet Solutions Pty Ltd 31-37 Townshend Street Phillip,

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Rey Bango
No biggee, Howie. It wasn't a secret. I just wasn't expecting anyone to see over the weekend and was planning on making an announcement about it on Monday. Cat's out of the bag now, though. That just means my work has doubled a couple of hours earlier. :) Geez, Jeff's already making me work a day

RE: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Dave Watts
> Just checked the mem usage on my cf server - over 80 megs! > Whoa. That's never good. Of course, that was in a shared > hosting environment, so people are probably running all sorts > of junk code. After restarting the CF services, mem usage > droped down to 16 megs. > > Oh yah - that was on W

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Rey Bango
Thanks for pointing that out Jeff. Its fixed. Rey... - Original Message - From: "Jeff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 11:36 PM Subject: Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange > :~~ > : From: Howie Hamlin <[EMAIL

Re: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Jay Sudowski - Handy Networks LLC
Dave / Jake - Just checked the mem usage on my cf server - over 80 megs! Whoa. That's never good. Of course, that was in a shared hosting environment, so people are probably running all sorts of junk code. After restarting the CF services, mem usage droped down to 16 megs. Oh yah - that was

RE: Memory Hog!

2000-05-14 Thread Dave Watts
> I thought there was some rumblings about win2k and the > ODBC/MDAC that CF installs on win2k with CF Enterprise That's a different problem. Versions before CF 4.5.1 would install MDAC 2.1 on Win2K, even though it has MDAC 2.5 already. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.c

Re: Memory Hog!

2000-05-14 Thread Stephen M. Aylor
I thought there was some rumblings about win2k and the ODBC/MDAC that CF installs on win2k with CF Enterprise Maybe this is an ODBC issue? Steve - Original Message - From: Jake Hileman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 08:02 PM Subject: Memory Hog

RE: Check for variable

2000-05-14 Thread Dave Watts
> Thanks. Also, I read in Forta's book that any code after > would be ignored, but he didn't say whether that was true if it was > included as part of a conditional statement. If the condition that contains the CFLOCATION is true, any following code will not be executed. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Le

Saving Customization in CF Studio 4.5

2000-05-14 Thread Ken M. Mevand
hi, anyone knows how to save the view for the Projects resource window? ie, i do NOT want see the Document title, date and size, but i don't want to set it every time i open studio. thanks -- Archives: http://www.e

RE: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Dave Watts
> > And cold fusion eats up 10x the memory that ASP did. I > > haven't even really run any programs except the sample ones > > and the cfserver.exe was using 30 megs of ram on nt2k > > Jake, > > It's gotta be something in your setup. We use CF for some > very processor intensive apps, and we NEV

RE: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Chris Chambers
My server is currently using ~180 MB of RAM, but I have it's cache set to 163840 KB (we've got a lotta templates) and we are serving about 6M hits every four or five days... __ Chris Chambers AIM: CTC HOME ICQ: 40311211 VOX: 757-896-6393 FAX: 757-896-0774 __

Re: HELP to Browse CF locally without an internet connection ???

2000-05-14 Thread AustralianAccommodation.com Pty. Ltd.
hello let me thank you for your valued advice as it has now rectified my worrying dilemma - Original Message - From: Chris Carpenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, May 15, 2000 1:12 PM Subject: Re: HELP to Browse CF locally without an internet connection ??? >

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Howie Hamlin
Oops - sorry...didn't know it was a secret. Apologies... Howie - Original Message - From: Rey Bango <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 11:43 PM Subject: Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange > Thanks for the announcement Howie. You beat me to t

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Jeff
:~~ : From: Howie Hamlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> : : Another notable Allaire item: : : www.forumspot.org :~~ notice the title bar: The Forum Spot - The Source for Support on Allaire ColdFusion Forms. sometimes just one letter can chang

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Rey Bango
Yeah, its pretty slick. It went into production on Friday. Its all Spectra-based. Rey... Certified Allaire Instructor Member of Team Allaire "A browser's beauty, at its heart, is its usefulness as a *TOOL*." - Original Message - From: "Peter Tilbrook" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PRO

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Rey Bango
Thanks for the announcement Howie. You beat me to the punch. Rey Bango Admin http://www.forumspot.org Certified Allaire Instructor Member of Team Allaire "A browser's beauty, at its heart, is its usefulness as a *TOOL*." - Original Message - From: "Howie Hamlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To:

Re: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Howie Hamlin
Another notable Allaire item: www.forumspot.org Howie Hamlin -- inFusion Project Manager; On-Line Data Solutions, Inc. (631)737-4668 === Please vote for iMS in the Most Innovative category here: *** http://www.sys-con.com/ColdFusion/readerschoice20

OT: new look Allaire Developers' Exchange

2000-05-14 Thread Peter Tilbrook
I just noticed Allaire have re-designed their Developers' Exchange site. Check it out at: http://devex.allaire.com/developer/gallery/ -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www.hou

Re: CF & WAP

2000-05-14 Thread Sean Renet
you might want to try http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists&body=lists/cf_wap. its a list like this one that discusses exactly what your looking for. - Original Message - From: "Kalyan Chakravarthy Modali" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 20

Re: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Howie Hamlin
- Original Message - From: Jake Hileman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 7:06 PM Subject: Re: Hi > Boom! That's exactly why I switched... right now I'm looking for a good > resource. ASP has activerserverpages.com, aspin.com etc.. cold fusion fall

Memory Hog!

2000-05-14 Thread Jake Hileman
Just checked it again, right now without me even running any CF applications, cfserver.exe has reached 38,780k of RAM. I'm using Windows NT 2000. Also, I'm having the same problem with SQL Server.. I'm barely using it, and it hit 70 megs of ram. Hmmm, inetinfo.exe and everything else stays unde

Re: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Jake Hileman
Really? Wow, because I was running SQL Server 7 here also. And I'm barely even using it and it was hitting 70 megs of ram! Something has got to be going on here.. any suggestions? I'm having troulbe with SQL Server 7 using 70 megs of ram with light usage and CF Enterprise hitting almost 30 meg

Re: HELP to Browse CF locally without an internet connection ???

2000-05-14 Thread Chris Carpenter
Hi Claude, In go to tools > internet options > connections > lan settings then, under advanced options, there should be a box that says : "...do not use proxy server for addresses beginning with... " in that box put your ip address : 127.0.0.1 and that should fix it.. Hope this Helps Chris Carpe

Re: HELP to Browse CF locally without an internet connection ???

2000-05-14 Thread AustralianAccommodation.com Pty. Ltd.
I am running the personal webserver that comes with windows 98 and yes it is running thanks for taking the time to respond and I hope that is assists you further in assisting me solve this dilemma - Original Message - From: Fred T. Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent

display the textboxes dynamically

2000-05-14 Thread Deva Ramesh
hai all can we display the textboxes dynamically thanx ramesh -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists&body=lists/cf_talk or send a me

No Subject

2000-05-14 Thread Deva Ramesh
hai all can we display the textboxes dynamically thanx ramesh -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists&body=lists/cf_talk or send a mes

RE: CF & WAP

2000-05-14 Thread Ian Lurie
Hi KC, I actually did a presentation on WAP to our local user group - drop me a line if you'd like some info or sample code... Ian Lurie [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Kalyan Chakravarthy Modali [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 6:38 PM To: [EMAIL PROTEC

Re: CF & WAP

2000-05-14 Thread Nick Slay
yup what do you want to know? email me directly on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nick At 09:37 15/05/00 +0800, you wrote: >Hi, >Does any one have any concrete leads abt the integration of cold fusion and >WAP. >Thx & Have a nice time. >KC > > >

CF & WAP

2000-05-14 Thread Kalyan Chakravarthy Modali
Hi, Does any one have any concrete leads abt the integration of cold fusion and WAP. Thx & Have a nice time. KC -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cf

Re: css/js editors other than TopStyle

2000-05-14 Thread David Hannum
CoffeeCup has one too! www.coffeecup.com Dave - Original Message - From: Peter Tilbrook <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 7:01 PM Subject: RE: css/js editors other than TopStyle > StyleMaker from Danere Group Software is pretty good. You can downlo

Re: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread David Hannum
>And cold fusion eats up 10x the memory that ASP did. I > haven't even really run any programs except the sample ones and the > cfserver.exe was using 30 megs of ram on nt2k Jake, It's gotta be something in your setup. We use CF for some very processor intensive apps, and we NEVER reach anywhe

Re: HELP to Browse CF locally without an internet connection ???

2000-05-14 Thread Fred T. Sanders
More information would be nice, like what kind of webserver your running on the box (i.e PWS, IIS, Apache, etc). Did you check to see if it was running, little things like that make helping you easier for us to do. Fred - Original Message - From: "AustralianAccommodation.com Pty. Ltd."

RE: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Jim Taylor
Welcome aboard Steve .. This community is one of the best I have seen Jim Taylor VP innus.com -Original Message- From: Steve Minton [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 3:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: Hi The reasons that I decided to turn to CF are: 1)

HELP to Browse CF locally without an internet connection ???

2000-05-14 Thread AustralianAccommodation.com Pty. Ltd.
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --=_NextPart_000_001B_01BFBE4F.6BEF4540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hi am trying to set my system up so that I can browse my cf website = locally without there needing to be an

Re: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Jake Hileman
Boom! That's exactly why I switched... right now I'm looking for a good resource. ASP has activerserverpages.com, aspin.com etc.. cold fusion falls short in that area. And cold fusion eats up 10x the memory that ASP did. I haven't even really run any programs except the sample ones and the cfs

RE: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Steve Minton
The reasons that I decided to turn to CF are: 1)While ASP is great for complex programming tasks, it is awkward and unwieldy for simple tasks such as merely presenting data from a database. 2)Whilst considering CF, I also took a brief look at PHP3, although I found that this woul

RE: css/js editors other than TopStyle

2000-05-14 Thread Peter Tilbrook
StyleMaker from Danere Group Software is pretty good. You can download a trial version of it from http://www.danere.com. Cheers! -- Peter Tilbrook SafetyWeb Internet Solutions Pty Ltd 31-37 Townshend Street Phillip, ACT, 2602 AUSTRALIA Tel: (02) 6273 9901 Fax: (02) 6273 9902 http://www.safetyw

RE: css/js editors other than TopStyle

2000-05-14 Thread Robert Crooks
I've tried several CSS editors, found TopStyle to be the best. I think it's well worth investing in the full version of Topstyle -- there's a lot more there! http://www.bradsoft.com I've used NetObjects ScriptBuilder. I like some features, but I have to say on the whole that there's less there

Re: CFX tag

2000-05-14 Thread Howie Hamlin
Try CFX_UserManager by Lewis Sellers: http://www.intrafoundation.com/shareware.html Howie Hamlin -- inFusion Project Manager; On-Line Data Solutions, Inc. (631)737-4668 === Please vote for iMS in the Most Innovative category here: *** http://www.sy

CFX tag

2000-05-14 Thread David Cummins
Hi people Does anybody know where I might find a custom tag called "CFX_ChangePass" for changing NT user passwords? The previous developers of a site we're working on used it, and they aren't being very helpful... David ---

Re: css/js editors other than TopStyle

2000-05-14 Thread John Quarto-vonTivadar
> CF Studio comes with TopStyle for Stylesheets. does anyone have another CSS > editor that use instead? coffeecup (you can find it, amoung other places, at www.tucows.com ) -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-t

Custom tags

2000-05-14 Thread David Cummins
Hi everybody I just started reading up about custom tags, and I was wondering a few things about them. Firstly, are things like cfsetting scoped in any way? For example, if I turn debugging off in a custom tag, does it affect the calling tag? Secondly, I believe you can only pass one query to a

css/js editors other than TopStyle

2000-05-14 Thread Mike Amburn
CF Studio comes with TopStyle for Stylesheets. does anyone have another CSS editor that use instead? does anyone use another editor for javascripts, like NetObjects Scriptbuilder? thanx for any replies mike -- Archives:

Re: Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Tom Harris
Steve: I'm sure everyone wants to know... what are the specific reasons you decided on CF? Tom - Original Message - From: "Steve Minton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Cf-Talk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: Hi > Hi Everyone > > I'm new to this list and just

Hi

2000-05-14 Thread Steve Minton
Hi Everyone I'm new to this list and just thought I'd briefly introduce myself. My name is Steve Minton and I am a Senior Web Designer/Developer, with Development skills in ASP (3 years). However, I felt the time had come to learn something new, and decided upon Cold Fusion. You will therefore

Re: displays the textboxes dynamically

2000-05-14 Thread Joseph Eugene
You could make the use choose , how many textboxes they want frrom a down list or so in another form and pass the variable to a cfloop, which has the form. - Original Message - From: "Deva Ramesh" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 12:23 PM Subject: di

RE: Slightly OT: Lighten things up a little

2000-05-14 Thread Michael Imhoff
I totally agree with the nice drive in the country, that's half the reason I bought it. Most of you are lucky cause you can get away from work for the most part. I live in a 11*15 dorm room with another person so unless I'm out to eat, or rarely attending a class :-), my clients can get to me.

Re: Find Duplicates

2000-05-14 Thread Dick Applebaum
Find Dups On Category: SELECT A.Category A.CategoryID FROM CategoryList A, CategoryList B WHERE A.Category= B.Category AND A.CategoryID <> B.CategoryID order by ACAT At 12:11 PM -0400 5/14/2000, stas wrote: >Hello, > >Does anybody have a quick co

Re: Slightly OT: Lighten things up a little

2000-05-14 Thread Fred T. Sanders
I'm not sure I want a MS branded Fridge... what happens if it locks up, or a glitch makes it decide to re-adjust the temperature to oh say 80 degrees?/ Fred - Original Message - From: "Rob Sherman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 8:44 AM Subject: R

Re: Find Duplicates

2000-05-14 Thread Guy Walker
Try this select field1, field2, field3, count(*) from table group by field1, field2, field3 having count(*) > 1 Guy - Original Message - From: "stas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2000 9:11 AM Subject: Find Duplicates > Hello, > > Does anybody hav

custom tag problem

2000-05-14 Thread Deva Ramesh
i am developing one custom tag. here i am passing the values from calling page to custom tag but after that i want to pass those values from that custom tag to another calling page is there any way to pass like that.( i used session variables also ). and one more doubt can i invoke from one c

displays the textboxes dynamically

2000-05-14 Thread Deva Ramesh
is there any way to display the text boxes dynamically, i mean if user wants 4 means 4 text boxes or 5 means 5 text boxes like that. Ramesh -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www

No Subject

2000-05-14 Thread Deva Ramesh
i am developing one custom tag. here i am passing the values from calling page to custom tag but after that i want to pass those values from that custom tag to another calling page is there any way to pass like that.( i used session variables also ). and one more doubt can i invoke from one c

Find Duplicates

2000-05-14 Thread stas
Hello, Does anybody have a quick code snippet to find possible duplicates based on one db field, case-insensitive? Thanks. -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.

Re: #lots_of_stuff$

2000-05-14 Thread Howie Hamlin
I think you will find that the difference (if any) is negligible. The reason is that ColdFusion has to parse the entire contents of the template whether you have a comment block, cfoutput block, or whatever. There is no way that an interpretive parser would not have to parse every character in a

RE: Slightly OT: Lighten things up a little

2000-05-14 Thread Duane Boudreau
Alternative 1: Why not try the heads up display that some of the luxury cars on the market offer today. Enlarge the display to cover the entire windshield and combine it with a steering wheel that has a keyboard built where the horn switch goes (who needs a horn there anyway) or dragonfly voice re

RE: #lots_of_stuff$

2000-05-14 Thread Dave Watts
> What about : > > blah blah blah blah > #variable# > blah blah blah blah blah blah blah > #variable# > blah blah blah blah > #variable# > blah blah blah blah blah > > > VS > > blah blah blah blah > > #variable# > > blah blah blah blah blah blah blah >

OT: Happy Mothers Day to all the CFMoms!

2000-05-14 Thread Erika Foster
Not a picture of me, but of my most cherished development accomplishment! They pooled their allowance and got me an MP3 player for Mothers Day - with a little help from daddy who feels guilty about the tee time he didn't cancel this morning. http://www.foster-family.net/images/jaelyn/kjbath_10119

Web registrars may take back your domain name

2000-05-14 Thread paul smith
Here's an article you gotta read if you want to keep a domain you've registered: http://news.com/Perspectives/Column/0,176,428,00.html best, paul -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit

Re: Is this a valid SQL query?

2000-05-14 Thread WL
> Looks OK... by not working, I assume you mean that you get no results returned. yeah. It just keeps on loading, but nothing happens. Could this be because I'm running CF Express? I haven't yet experienced a problem like this - usually I'm at fault(!) and it tells me so, or it says CFXpress

RE: Slightly OT: Lighten things up a little

2000-05-14 Thread Rob Sherman
Steve Wrote: > It would be interesting to hear what others are doing to reduce the amount >of wasted, non-coding time. Pinkdot.com Homegrocer.com Kozmo.com Food.com Still kicking for not working well enough to order groceries automatically on a consistent basis (snickers, Jolt Cola & Pizza) ..

Re: Is this a valid SQL query?

2000-05-14 Thread Dick Applebaum
Looks OK... by not working, I assume you mean that you get no results returned. You might add: sub_categories.cat_id to your SELECT clause and remove the WHERE clause... You will see what the actual data is (could be a lot of data). HTH Dick At 2:19 PM +0100 5/14/2000, WL wrote: >Hi, >

RE: Slightly OT: Lighten things up a little

2000-05-14 Thread Steve Robson
I think if you watch the road instead of your monitor, you'll have more luck. BTW - where do you put your monitor, I tried putting it in front of the steering wheel, but it was too close, then I tried on top of the dash but it was too far away, I was thinking about putting it on the passanger sea

Is this a valid SQL query?

2000-05-14 Thread WL
Hi, Is this OK for a SQL query? The 2 tables in question are categories and sub_categories. Everything seems ok, but it's not working.. Select categories.ID, categories.cat_name, sub_categories.sub_id, sub_categories.sub_name, sub_categories.sub_descript FROM categories,sub_categories

Re: ASCII for tab?

2000-05-14 Thread Dick Applebaum
9 At 4:04 AM -0700 5/14/2000, Sean Renet wrote: >Anyone know what the ASCII is for tab(eg., chr(13) is carriage return)? -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com

ASCII for tab?

2000-05-14 Thread Sean Renet
Anyone know what the ASCII is for tab(eg., chr(13) is carriage return)? -- Archives: http://www.eGroups.com/list/cf-talk To Unsubscribe visit http://www.houseoffusion.com/index.cfm?sidebar=lists&body=lists/cf_talk or sen

RE: Slightly OT: Lighten things up a little

2000-05-14 Thread Rob Sherman
I'm waiting for the day I see a KIA Spectra going down the road with a "WWBFD" (What Would Ben Forta Do) bumper sticker. Alternatively, how about a "Got WACK?" bumper sticker? Sincerely, Rob Sherman Developer / Allaire Certified Instructor CFDude, Inc. http://www.cfdude.com ---

Re: Slightly OT: Lighten things up a little

2000-05-14 Thread John Allred
Michael Imhoff wrote: > I ended up getting a 97 > BMW z3...sometimes I think that staring at the monitor too long impairs my > judgment :-D > Michael, I don't know about the judgement part, but a nice, top down ride in the country in my Miata sure clears my head after a long day at the screen.

Re: Joining Two Text Fields?

2000-05-14 Thread John Allred
Marco, I do this with one of my sites (combining fields to construct a URL), and it works fine. I think, possibly, including the "?ID=" in the field may be the culprit. Try removing these characters from the field, then construct the URL as follows: It's been a while since I struggled with ge