Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
This may not be the right place to post this (man, CF-TALK has changed a lot in the last 5 or so years ;)). I have a simple SQL query that is showing up as running slow. When I run it via the Management Studio it is sometimes fast 0.1 seconds and sometimes, seemingly randomly slow 1.5 minutes!). Other queries on other tables are executing normally. This table only has 50k records and even a simple query is sometimes really slow. The query that runs slow is as simple as select commitDate,id from databaseChangeLog where usr_id = 62622 and form_id = 312468 and commitDate '2013-12-04 11:00:05.0' But is just as slow without the date part. The table has a clustered index on the primary key (id) and a non-clustered index on usr_id,form_id and commitDate. The index doesn't seem to make any difference. My guess is the table is locked. My question is: How can I determine if it is locked? What would be locking it. I checked all my code and there are no CFTRANSACTIONS or ISOLATED READS or anything like that. There are some inserts and the table has 2 TEXT columns which are being updated at times with fairly large values. But the only queries reported as slow are these simple SELECTS. The query execution plan uses the non-clustered index on (usr_id,form_id and commitDate). I'm just at a loss as to why this specific query is sometimes so slow.. where to look? Brook ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357289 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
Brooke, Couple of points of inquiry. 1) 50k records can be a little OR a lot. How much actual data is returned. Is a lot of textual? Management studio might look really fast but the problem could be a lot of character data buffering to the web server. 2) have you looked at the activity monitor? Filter by your connection and watch for blocks or waits - taking note of the process blocking. 3) Indexing might be ok but maybe not. Take a look at the execution plan in Management Studio - it can tell you what the most expensive operations of the query are. 4) Double check parallelism on the server. This can bite you under certain conditions and will result in what look like randomly slow queries with no seeming blocks. See my blog post about it: http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2011/11/18/cf.mssql.parallelism Hope this helps a little. Good luck! -mark -Original Message- From: Brook Davies [mailto:cft...@logiforms.com] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 11:26 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow? This may not be the right place to post this (man, CF-TALK has changed a lot in the last 5 or so years ;)). I have a simple SQL query that is showing up as running slow. When I run it via the Management Studio it is sometimes fast 0.1 seconds and sometimes, seemingly randomly slow 1.5 minutes!). Other queries on other tables are executing normally. This table only has 50k records and even a simple query is sometimes really slow. The query that runs slow is as simple as select commitDate,id from databaseChangeLog where usr_id = 62622 and form_id = 312468 and commitDate '2013-12-04 11:00:05.0' But is just as slow without the date part. The table has a clustered index on the primary key (id) and a non-clustered index on usr_id,form_id and commitDate. The index doesn't seem to make any difference. My guess is the table is locked. My question is: How can I determine if it is locked? What would be locking it. I checked all my code and there are no CFTRANSACTIONS or ISOLATED READS or anything like that. There are some inserts and the table has 2 TEXT columns which are being updated at times with fairly large values. But the only queries reported as slow are these simple SELECTS. The query execution plan uses the non-clustered index on (usr_id,form_id and commitDate). I'm just at a loss as to why this specific query is sometimes so slow.. where to look? Brook ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357290 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
Just for clarification, do you have a unique index with the three non-primary columns, or are those indexed individually? If individually, I would suggest a combined index, at least of the usr_id and form_id columns, as those are numeric values and then a separate index of the date column. Ive found mixing datatypes within an index usually doesnt gain much in query performance. Since 2008, SQL Server has the default Lock Escalation setting as Table, which means that the processing of large updates will lock to the table. You can see the specifics of whats happening under-the-hood with each of the escalation settings here: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms190273.aspx You might try setting Lock Escallation to DISABLE and see if that resolves the issue. You can also turn on Snapshot Isolation to allow your reads to proceed, even when large updates are happening: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/tcbchxcb%28VS.80%29.aspx HTH, Jon On Dec 5, 2013, at 12:26 PM, Brook Davies cft...@logiforms.com wrote: This may not be the right place to post this (man, CF-TALK has changed a lot in the last 5 or so years ;)). I have a simple SQL query that is showing up as running slow. When I run it via the Management Studio it is sometimes fast 0.1 seconds and sometimes, seemingly randomly slow 1.5 minutes!). Other queries on other tables are executing normally. This table only has 50k records and even a simple query is sometimes really slow. The query that runs slow is as simple as select commitDate,id from databaseChangeLog where usr_id = 62622 and form_id = 312468 and commitDate '2013-12-04 11:00:05.0' But is just as slow without the date part. The table has a clustered index on the primary key (id) and a non-clustered index on usr_id,form_id and commitDate. The index doesn't seem to make any difference. My guess is the table is locked. My question is: How can I determine if it is locked? What would be locking it. I checked all my code and there are no CFTRANSACTIONS or ISOLATED READS or anything like that. There are some inserts and the table has 2 TEXT columns which are being updated at times with fairly large values. But the only queries reported as slow are these simple SELECTS. The query execution plan uses the non-clustered index on (usr_id,form_id and commitDate). I'm just at a loss as to why this specific query is sometimes so slow.. where to look? Brook ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357291 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
re: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
There are a couple of queries that you can run while your query is
executing to see if there is anything else running that is blocking the
execution. The first will show all running activities and identify if any
are blocking one another. The second is just a handy script to see what's
running currently.
/*** Find blocking SPIDS
***/ SELECT s.spid, BlockingSPID =
s.blocked, DatabaseName = DB_NAME(s.dbid), s.program_name,
s.loginame, ObjectName = OBJECT_NAME(objectid, s.dbid), Definition =
CAST(text AS VARCHAR(MAX)) FROM sys.sysprocesses sCROSS APPLY
sys.dm_exec_sql_text (sql_handle) WHERE s.spid 50
/*** Find all running queries
***/ SELECT sqltext.TEXT,
req.session_id, req.status, req.command, req.cpu_time,
req.total_elapsed_time FROM sys.dm_exec_requests req CROSS APPLY
sys.dm_exec_sql_text(sql_handle) AS sqltext
If these don't show anything blocking your query, you may want to look at
using query hints to force the use of a particular index. SQLServer will
somtimes choose a poor execution plan. You can give it hints on which
index to use at the table level using something like the following: SELECT
* FROM tablename WITH (INDEX({indexname})) WHERE . A good primer on
using index hints can be found here:
http://blog.sqlauthority.com/2009/02/08/sql-server-introduction-to-force-ind
ex-query-hints-index-hint-part2/
Hope this helps,
-- Jeff
Original Message
From: Brook Davies cft...@logiforms.com
Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 10:27 AM
To: cf-talk cf-talk@houseoffusion.com
Subject: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
This may not be the right place to post this (man, CF-TALK has changed a
lot
in the last 5 or so years ;)).
I have a simple SQL query that is showing up as running slow. When I run
it
via the Management Studio it is sometimes fast 0.1 seconds and
sometimes,
seemingly randomly slow 1.5 minutes!). Other queries on other tables are
executing normally. This table only has 50k records and even a simple
query
is sometimes really slow.
The query that runs slow is as simple as
select commitDate,id from databaseChangeLog
where usr_id = 62622 and form_id = 312468
and commitDate '2013-12-04 11:00:05.0'
But is just as slow without the date part. The table has a clustered
index
on the primary key (id) and a non-clustered index on usr_id,form_id and
commitDate. The index doesn't seem to make any difference.
My guess is the table is locked. My question is:
How can I determine if it is locked? What would be locking it. I checked
all
my code and there are no CFTRANSACTIONS or ISOLATED READS or anything
like
that. There are some inserts and the table has 2 TEXT columns which are
being updated at times with fairly large values. But the only queries
reported as slow are these simple SELECTS. The query execution plan uses
the
non-clustered index on (usr_id,form_id and commitDate).
I'm just at a loss as to why this specific query is sometimes so slow..
where to look?
Brook
~|
Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now!
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Re: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
for analyzing the execution plan, check out SQL Sentry Plan Explorer. They have a free version, and it's a much better tool for execution plan analysis than Management Studio On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:03 AM, Mark A Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.comwrote: Brooke, Couple of points of inquiry. 1) 50k records can be a little OR a lot. How much actual data is returned. Is a lot of textual? Management studio might look really fast but the problem could be a lot of character data buffering to the web server. 2) have you looked at the activity monitor? Filter by your connection and watch for blocks or waits - taking note of the process blocking. 3) Indexing might be ok but maybe not. Take a look at the execution plan in Management Studio - it can tell you what the most expensive operations of the query are. 4) Double check parallelism on the server. This can bite you under certain conditions and will result in what look like randomly slow queries with no seeming blocks. See my blog post about it: http://www.coldfusionmuse.com/index.cfm/2011/11/18/cf.mssql.parallelism Hope this helps a little. Good luck! -mark -Original Message- From: Brook Davies [mailto:cft...@logiforms.com] Sent: Thursday, December 05, 2013 11:26 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow? This may not be the right place to post this (man, CF-TALK has changed a lot in the last 5 or so years ;)). I have a simple SQL query that is showing up as running slow. When I run it via the Management Studio it is sometimes fast 0.1 seconds and sometimes, seemingly randomly slow 1.5 minutes!). Other queries on other tables are executing normally. This table only has 50k records and even a simple query is sometimes really slow. The query that runs slow is as simple as select commitDate,id from databaseChangeLog where usr_id = 62622 and form_id = 312468 and commitDate '2013-12-04 11:00:05.0' But is just as slow without the date part. The table has a clustered index on the primary key (id) and a non-clustered index on usr_id,form_id and commitDate. The index doesn't seem to make any difference. My guess is the table is locked. My question is: How can I determine if it is locked? What would be locking it. I checked all my code and there are no CFTRANSACTIONS or ISOLATED READS or anything like that. There are some inserts and the table has 2 TEXT columns which are being updated at times with fairly large values. But the only queries reported as slow are these simple SELECTS. The query execution plan uses the non-clustered index on (usr_id,form_id and commitDate). I'm just at a loss as to why this specific query is sometimes so slow.. where to look? Brook ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357293 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
Could never figure this out, but we had a similar issue on 2005 with a date time column. I remember we changed from a cfquery to a stored procedure and it was resolved. Byron Mann Lead Engineer Architect HostMySite.com On Dec 5, 2013 12:27 PM, Brook Davies cft...@logiforms.com wrote: This may not be the right place to post this (man, CF-TALK has changed a lot in the last 5 or so years ;)). I have a simple SQL query that is showing up as running slow. When I run it via the Management Studio it is sometimes fast 0.1 seconds and sometimes, seemingly randomly slow 1.5 minutes!). Other queries on other tables are executing normally. This table only has 50k records and even a simple query is sometimes really slow. The query that runs slow is as simple as select commitDate,id from databaseChangeLog where usr_id = 62622 and form_id = 312468 and commitDate '2013-12-04 11:00:05.0' But is just as slow without the date part. The table has a clustered index on the primary key (id) and a non-clustered index on usr_id,form_id and commitDate. The index doesn't seem to make any difference. My guess is the table is locked. My question is: How can I determine if it is locked? What would be locking it. I checked all my code and there are no CFTRANSACTIONS or ISOLATED READS or anything like that. There are some inserts and the table has 2 TEXT columns which are being updated at times with fairly large values. But the only queries reported as slow are these simple SELECTS. The query execution plan uses the non-clustered index on (usr_id,form_id and commitDate). I'm just at a loss as to why this specific query is sometimes so slow.. where to look? Brook ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357294 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
RE: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow?
Thank you everyone for all your suggestions. Gonna start testing them out. Byron: I have this issue when running the query via management studio and via cfquery so not sure if that is relevant.. Jon: I'm still running 2005 (if it ain't broke...), but was also thinking about trying READ UNCOMMITTED (maybe that would have the same effect as your suggestion?) Mark: The select is only returning a couple of columns (date/int) and no text.. I'll check the activity monitor.. the execution plan shows the index usage and doesn't appear to account for the delays... Jeff: Thanks for the Queries, I'll try them! Whohoo! Cftalk is alive!! Brook -Original Message- From: Byron Mann [mailto:byronos...@gmail.com] Sent: December-05-13 10:22 AM To: cf-talk Subject: Re: Simple SQL Query sometimes really Slow? Could never figure this out, but we had a similar issue on 2005 with a date time column. I remember we changed from a cfquery to a stored procedure and it was resolved. Byron Mann Lead Engineer Architect HostMySite.com On Dec 5, 2013 12:27 PM, Brook Davies cft...@logiforms.com wrote: This may not be the right place to post this (man, CF-TALK has changed a lot in the last 5 or so years ;)). I have a simple SQL query that is showing up as running slow. When I run it via the Management Studio it is sometimes fast 0.1 seconds and sometimes, seemingly randomly slow 1.5 minutes!). Other queries on other tables are executing normally. This table only has 50k records and even a simple query is sometimes really slow. The query that runs slow is as simple as select commitDate,id from databaseChangeLog where usr_id = 62622 and form_id = 312468 and commitDate '2013-12-04 11:00:05.0' But is just as slow without the date part. The table has a clustered index on the primary key (id) and a non-clustered index on usr_id,form_id and commitDate. The index doesn't seem to make any difference. My guess is the table is locked. My question is: How can I determine if it is locked? What would be locking it. I checked all my code and there are no CFTRANSACTIONS or ISOLATED READS or anything like that. There are some inserts and the table has 2 TEXT columns which are being updated at times with fairly large values. But the only queries reported as slow are these simple SELECTS. The query execution plan uses the non-clustered index on (usr_id,form_id and commitDate). I'm just at a loss as to why this specific query is sometimes so slow.. where to look? Brook ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357295 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
CMS Vs Framework
Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= If a CF CMS system such as Mura speck already include a framework such=0A= as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= Suggestion? ideas? -- -Nils The Computer Chief IT Solutions and Website Hosting ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357296 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
CMS = A system where pages can be loaded with data from a database and the user usually has direct control over the actual page contents and formatting. Usually is good when you have lots of users each wanting their own page. Frameworks = A set of rules how files are set up and work together. Usually having some core files to help manage the data easier. These 2 things have very little, if anything, to do with each other. Also, as a personal recommendation, don't do an ecommerce site without first at least getting your own website set up. You are going to be dealing with financial information and if you are just beginning as a web developer (which, no offense, it sounds like you are), you really don't want to have that be your first project without at least some heavy mentoring. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:41 PM, Nils n...@thecomputerchief.com wrote: Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= If a CF CMS system such as Mura speck already include a framework such=0A= as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= Suggestion? ideas? -- -Nils The Computer Chief IT Solutions and Website Hosting ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357297 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357298 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357299 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? There isn't always a framework built into it (or if there is one, it's been set up specifically for the CMS). The reason you don't always use a CMS is too varied to get into here. Suffice it to say that CMS systems aren't always the best way to make webpages. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Nils Nehrenheim n...@thecomputerchief.comwrote: Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357300 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? The C in CMS stands for Content. If you're building a site that's all (or perhaps mostly) content, use a CMS. But many sites are not content - they're applications that let the user do something. Those are not a good fit for CMSs. Frameworks let you build applications. Those applications might be CMSs, or something else - it really doesn't matter. Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357301 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
To answer your question, the major difference between customizing a CMS versus incorporating your content management within a framework, IMHO, comes *after* the site is built. That said, I think its often far easier to do the former than the latter, as most CMS systems arent documented to be fully customized but, instead are documented to develop against their own, limited, plugin architecture. The customization of a standalone CMS almost always involves a heavy forking of the distributed file system. Doing this breaks forward compatibility and upgrades and simple security patches become complex diff-merges that nearly always break your customizations. CMS customizations also frequently involve customizations to the database, unless you attempt to jump through many, many hoops to shoehorn the customizations in to the existing conventions and database structure of the CMS. Once you start with the forking of the database structure, upgrade headaches increase exponentially. Building on a framework allows you to more effectively maintain the site over the long-haul as, most often, you are swapping out a non-forked or lightly-forked version for a newer one. Take for example, the Coldbox framework. The ContentBox CMS is built as a module of the main framework, with a module structure of its own which mirrors (and can be hooked-in to) the main framework. This allows one to develop a robust application on the core framework, while hooking in to the module of the CMS as required or ignoring it when its not needed. I like CMS systems. They are a great tool for solving specific, mostly basic, problems. They also tend to be well supported over the long-term as there is a wide user base with a vested interest in keeping them going. Ive got three major apps I still maintain that were developed on great frameworks that died slowly and quietly. Thats one of the dangers to developing on bleeding edge frameworks, but its one Ill take most of the time, if there are specific needs that either arent addressed or are over-complicated by attempting to customize the CMS. HTH, Jon On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Nils n...@thecomputerchief.com wrote: Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= If a CF CMS system such as Mura speck already include a framework such=0A= as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= Suggestion? ideas? -- -Nils The Computer Chief IT Solutions and Website Hosting ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357302 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Sorry, first paragraph should read its often far easier to do the latter than the former. My bad. On Dec 5, 2013, at 8:19 PM, Jon Clausen jon_clau...@silowebworks.com wrote: To answer your question, the major difference between customizing a CMS versus incorporating your content management within a framework, IMHO, comes *after* the site is built. That said, I think its often far easier to do the former than the latter, as most CMS systems arent documented to be fully customized but, instead are documented to develop against their own, limited, plugin architecture. The customization of a standalone CMS almost always involves a heavy forking of the distributed file system. Doing this breaks forward compatibility and upgrades and simple security patches become complex diff-merges that nearly always break your customizations. CMS customizations also frequently involve customizations to the database, unless you attempt to jump through many, many hoops to shoehorn the customizations in to the existing conventions and database structure of the CMS. Once you start with the forking of the database structure, upgrade headaches increase exponentially. Building on a framework allows you to more effectively maintain the site over the long-haul as, most often, you are swapping out a non-forked or lightly-forked version for a newer one. Take for example, the Coldbox framework. The ContentBox CMS is built as a module of the main framework, with a module structure of its own which mirrors (and can be hooked-in to) the main framework. This allows one to develop a robust application on the core framework, while hooking in to the module of the CMS as required or ignoring it when its not needed. I like CMS systems. They are a great tool for solving specific, mostly basic, problems. They also tend to be well supported over the long-term as there is a wide user base with a vested interest in keeping them going. Ive got three major apps I still maintain that were developed on great frameworks that died slowly and quietly. Thats one of the dangers to developing on bleeding edge frameworks, but its one Ill take most of the time, if there are specific needs that either arent addressed or are over-complicated by attempting to customize the CMS. HTH, Jon On Dec 5, 2013, at 6:41 PM, Nils n...@thecomputerchief.com wrote: Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= If a CF CMS system such as Mura speck already include a framework such=0A= as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= Suggestion? ideas? -- -Nils The Computer Chief IT Solutions and Website Hosting ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357303 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
The real answer is it depends. What's the site for? Is, as someone else mentioned, a primarily content site? How closely does it fit with the model the CMS provides? etc. As for ecommerce, don't build your own unless you've used several others already and have a very specific reason to. There's Slatwall on the CFML side. Aside from that, you really should try to use one of the SaaS platforms if at all possible - Shopify, etc. And I say this as someone who's written several ecommerce engines. On 12/5/13 3:41 PM, Nils wrote: Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= If a CF CMS system such as Mura speck already include a framework such=0A= as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= Suggestion? ideas? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357304 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Philip ContentBox is not using ColdBox as you describe, let me be very clear here. A framework helps you achieve common application problems, for example ColdBox provides the ability to provide AOP and ContentBox uses this feature of the framework heavily. But the framework was not as you put it designed to work with the CMS. Regards, Andrew Scott WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/ Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411 On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.comwrote: Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? There isn't always a framework built into it (or if there is one, it's been set up specifically for the CMS). The reason you don't always use a CMS is too varied to get into here. Suffice it to say that CMS systems aren't always the best way to make webpages. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Nils Nehrenheim n...@thecomputerchief.comwrote: Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357305 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
I stand corrected. I didn't mean to make that statement. The overall point though was covered by Dave. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.auwrote: Philip ContentBox is not using ColdBox as you describe, let me be very clear here. A framework helps you achieve common application problems, for example ColdBox provides the ability to provide AOP and ContentBox uses this feature of the framework heavily. But the framework was not as you put it designed to work with the CMS. Regards, Andrew Scott WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/ Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411 On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 11:01 AM, Phillip Vector vec...@mostdeadlygame.comwrote: Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? There isn't always a framework built into it (or if there is one, it's been set up specifically for the CMS). The reason you don't always use a CMS is too varied to get into here. Suffice it to say that CMS systems aren't always the best way to make webpages. On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 3:58 PM, Nils Nehrenheim n...@thecomputerchief.comwrote: Right! That's my question, since a CMS system already has a form of framework built inside, there's no need for a Framework. Why not just always use a CMS and custimze to your heart's content? Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I'm affraid you are comparing apples and oranges. You would use a CF framework to develop a CMS system but you wouldn't have to develop anything if you use a CMS system. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357306 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: CMS Vs Framework
Nils as others have pointed out. A framework is something that helps you achieve something, like a screwdriver it is a tool that helps you remove and insert screws into small holes to do its job. Think if a framework like a tool belt of tools that help you create and application, but it means that the CMS is now coupled to using that framework only. A CMS is an Application, that can be built using a framework or it can be built without a framework. Regards, Andrew Scott WebSite: http://www.andyscott.id.au/ Google+: http://plus.google.com/113032480415921517411 On Fri, Dec 6, 2013 at 10:41 AM, Nils n...@thecomputerchief.com wrote: Why would I choose a CF Framework over a CF CMS system? I have no real=0A= experience with either, other than installing both and playing around.=0A= If a CF CMS system such as Mura speck already include a framework such=0A= as Coldbox, Model-glue FW/1. why not just go for a Mura type system? I=0A= understand there's a huge oversimplification in the question,: CMS is=0A= managing content and page, frameworks deal with data. But, in the end=0A= they both do the same in many ways. CMS includes an Framework?=0A= I need to build out an e-commerce system, of course a site with=0A= integrated blog and video and blah blah..=0A= Suggestion? ideas? -- -Nils The Computer Chief IT Solutions and Website Hosting ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357307 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Issue implementing SSL authentication to use SQL force encryption
All, I am having an issue when I add the suggested SSL connection string via adobe\Cold Fusion website (EncryptionMethod=SSL; TrustStore=path to keystore; TrustStorePassword=trustStorePassword; ValidateServerCertificate=true|false; HostNameInCertificate) and when I restart the Cold Fusion services or reboot the server the neo-databasesource file loses it's structure causing no access to the database unless I remove the connection string and cut of SQL force encryption. Anyone with any insight on this type of issue. Please advise? ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357308 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
Re: Issue implementing SSL authentication to use SQL force encryption
I am having an issue when I add the suggested SSL connection string via adobe\Cold Fusion website (EncryptionMethod=SSL; TrustStore=path to keystore; TrustStorePassword=trustStorePassword; ValidateServerCertificate=true|false; HostNameInCertificate) and when I restart the Cold Fusion services or reboot the server the neo-databasesource file loses it's structure causing no access to the database unless I remove the connection string and cut of SQL force encryption. Anyone with any insight on this type of issue. Please advise? It's not clear to me whether you're having the problem only after a restart, or whether you were never able to connect to the database via TLS/SSL at all. If it's the latter, have you added the SQL Server's certificate chain to the CF keystore? Dave Watts, CTO, Fig Leaf Software http://www.figleaf.com/ http://training.figleaf.com/ Fig Leaf Software is a Veteran-Owned Small Business (VOSB) on GSA Schedule, and provides the highest caliber vendor-authorized instruction at our training centers, online, or onsite. ~| Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now! http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion Archive: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:357309 Subscription: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/subscribe.cfm Unsubscribe: http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/unsubscribe.cfm
