subject:"CF vs. Java Web Developer"


On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote:
 When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about relocation
 things got a lot easier for us.

I'll +100 on this.

At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and
conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from the
list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day
mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the
candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone
relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even if
they lived locally.

At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I joined
because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up the office
in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time. Now, when we
hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if you're right for us,
we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or whatever you want). We
plan to have an all-hands company meeting once or twice a year and fly
everyone in for the event, but we rely on Yammer! and Unfuddle / git
and mailing lists and Skype and iChat and so on. We can pair remotely
as engineers whenever we want - not as good as pairing face-to-face
but it works well enough.

 We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model that is
 focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make their families
 important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
 reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely working in
 various parts of the country.

+1 on all of that.

 1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing with a
 remote staff.

Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.

 2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.

Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do them at all.

 3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.

Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker /
version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use
iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).

 4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who are
 uncomfortable with a remote staff.

Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for
customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


+1 on everything said thus far re: telecommute. My company has  10
employees, no office, and we're spread out over four states. We use some
tools already mentioned plus GoToMeeting.

-- 
John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.comwrote:


 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com
 wrote:
  When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about relocation
  things got a lot easier for us.

 I'll +100 on this.

 At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and
 conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from the
 list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day
 mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the
 candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone
 relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even if
 they lived locally.

 At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I joined
 because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up the office
 in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time. Now, when we
 hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if you're right for us,
 we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or whatever you want). We
 plan to have an all-hands company meeting once or twice a year and fly
 everyone in for the event, but we rely on Yammer! and Unfuddle / git
 and mailing lists and Skype and iChat and so on. We can pair remotely
 as engineers whenever we want - not as good as pairing face-to-face
 but it works well enough.

  We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model that is
  focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make their families
  important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
  reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely working
 in
  various parts of the country.

 +1 on all of that.

  1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing with a
  remote staff.

 Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.

  2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.

 Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do them at
 all.

  3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.

 Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker /
 version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use
 iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).

  4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who are
  uncomfortable with a remote staff.

 Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for
 customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
 --
 Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
 An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
 World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
 Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

 Perfection is the enemy of the good.
 -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are too
many distractions, tv, food, wife or g/f, even more so if you have small
kids screaming round the house all day or if you do not have a separate room
to use as an office.
I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).

Russ


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 +1 on everything said thus far re: telecommute. My company has  10
 employees, no office, and we're spread out over four states. We use some
 tools already mentioned plus GoToMeeting.

 --
 John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss

 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com
  wrote:
   When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about
 relocation
   things got a lot easier for us.
 
  I'll +100 on this.
 
  At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and
  conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from the
  list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day
  mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the
  candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone
  relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even if
  they lived locally.
 
  At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I joined
  because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up the office
  in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time. Now, when we
  hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if you're right for us,
  we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or whatever you want). We
  plan to have an all-hands company meeting once or twice a year and fly
  everyone in for the event, but we rely on Yammer! and Unfuddle / git
  and mailing lists and Skype and iChat and so on. We can pair remotely
  as engineers whenever we want - not as good as pairing face-to-face
  but it works well enough.
 
   We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model that is
   focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make their
 families
   important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
   reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely
 working
  in
   various parts of the country.
 
  +1 on all of that.
 
   1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing with a
   remote staff.
 
  Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.
 
   2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.
 
  Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do them
 at
  all.
 
   3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.
 
  Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker /
  version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use
  iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).
 
   4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who are
   uncomfortable with a remote staff.
 
  Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for
  customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
  --
  Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
  An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
  World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
  Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/
 
  Perfection is the enemy of the good.
  -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
 
 

 

~|
Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now!
http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
Archive: 
http://www.houseoffusion.com/groups/cf-talk/message.cfm/messageid:345565
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Can we not say a lot? Can we agree on some? Just in case my next
employer is reading this thread?

Unless you have stats...?


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:


 working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are too
 many distractions, tv, food, wife or g/f, even more so if you have small
 kids screaming round the house all day or if you do not have a separate
 room
 to use as an office.
 I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
 proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).

 Russ


 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  +1 on everything said thus far re: telecommute. My company has  10
  employees, no office, and we're spread out over four states. We use some
  tools already mentioned plus GoToMeeting.
 
  --
  John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss
 
  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  
   On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger 
 mkru...@cfwebtools.com
   wrote:
When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about
  relocation
things got a lot easier for us.
  
   I'll +100 on this.
  
   At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and
   conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from the
   list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day
   mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the
   candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone
   relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even if
   they lived locally.
  
   At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I joined
   because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up the office
   in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time. Now, when we
   hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if you're right for us,
   we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or whatever you want). We
   plan to have an all-hands company meeting once or twice a year and fly
   everyone in for the event, but we rely on Yammer! and Unfuddle / git
   and mailing lists and Skype and iChat and so on. We can pair remotely
   as engineers whenever we want - not as good as pairing face-to-face
   but it works well enough.
  
We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model that
 is
focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make their
  families
important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely
  working
   in
various parts of the country.
  
   +1 on all of that.
  
1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing with
 a
remote staff.
  
   Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.
  
2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.
  
   Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do
 them
  at
   all.
  
3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.
  
   Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker /
   version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use
   iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).
  
4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who are
uncomfortable with a remote staff.
  
   Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for
   customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
   --
   Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
   An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
   World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
   Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/
  
   Perfection is the enemy of the good.
   -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
  
  
 
 

 

~|
Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now!
http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


That should have read, Just in case my next employer is reading this thread
and is on the fence about hiring telecommuters?

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:37 AM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:

 Can we not say a lot? Can we agree on some? Just in case my next
 employer is reading this thread?

 Unless you have stats...?


 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.ukwrote:


 working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are too
 many distractions, tv, food, wife or g/f, even more so if you have small
 kids screaming round the house all day or if you do not have a separate
 room
 to use as an office.
 I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
 proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).

 Russ





-- 
John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss


~|
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http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


LOL, well unless u have stats it is nothing more than opinion, but common
sense tells you that distractions stop you form working effectively.
And the only way to avoid those distractions is to be away from them.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 Can we not say a lot? Can we agree on some? Just in case my next
 employer is reading this thread?

 Unless you have stats...?


 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk
 wrote:

 
  working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are too
  many distractions, tv, food, wife or g/f, even more so if you have small
  kids screaming round the house all day or if you do not have a separate
  room
  to use as an office.
  I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
  proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).
 
  Russ
 
 
  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  
   +1 on everything said thus far re: telecommute. My company has  10
   employees, no office, and we're spread out over four states. We use
 some
   tools already mentioned plus GoToMeeting.
  
   --
   John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss
  
   On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
   
On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger 
  mkru...@cfwebtools.com
wrote:
 When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about
   relocation
 things got a lot easier for us.
   
I'll +100 on this.
   
At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and
conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from the
list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day
mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the
candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone
relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even
 if
they lived locally.
   
At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I
 joined
because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up the office
in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time. Now, when we
hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if you're right for
 us,
we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or whatever you want). We
plan to have an all-hands company meeting once or twice a year and
 fly
everyone in for the event, but we rely on Yammer! and Unfuddle / git
and mailing lists and Skype and iChat and so on. We can pair remotely
as engineers whenever we want - not as good as pairing face-to-face
but it works well enough.
   
 We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model that
  is
 focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make their
   families
 important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
 reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely
   working
in
 various parts of the country.
   
+1 on all of that.
   
 1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing
 with
  a
 remote staff.
   
Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.
   
 2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.
   
Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do
  them
   at
all.
   
 3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.
   
Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker /
version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use
iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).
   
 4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who are
 uncomfortable with a remote staff.
   
Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for
customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/
   
Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
   
   
  
  
 
 

 

~|
Order the Adobe Coldfusion Anthology now!
http://www.amazon.com/Adobe-Coldfusion-Anthology/dp/1430272155/?tag=houseoffusion
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Right. Telecommuters have an (obvious) responsibility to avoid enough
distractions and/or put in enough hours to get their work done.

But same goes for non-telecommuters.


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:59 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:


 LOL, well unless u have stats it is nothing more than opinion, but common
 sense tells you that distractions stop you form working effectively.
 And the only way to avoid those distractions is to be away from them.

 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:37 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  Can we not say a lot? Can we agree on some? Just in case my next
  employer is reading this thread?
 
  Unless you have stats...?
 
 
  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:34 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk
  wrote:
 
  
   working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are
 too
   many distractions, tv, food, wife or g/f, even more so if you have
 small
   kids screaming round the house all day or if you do not have a separate
   room
   to use as an office.
   I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into
 a
   proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).
  
   Russ
  
  
   On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
   
+1 on everything said thus far re: telecommute. My company has  10
employees, no office, and we're spread out over four states. We use
  some
tools already mentioned plus GoToMeeting.
   
--
John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss
   
On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Sean Corfield 
 seancorfi...@gmail.com
wrote:
   

 On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger 
   mkru...@cfwebtools.com
 wrote:
  When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about
relocation
  things got a lot easier for us.

 I'll +100 on this.

 At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and
 conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from
 the
 list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day
 mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the
 candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone
 relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even
  if
 they lived locally.

 At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I
  joined
 because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up the
 office
 in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time. Now, when we
 hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if you're right for
  us,
 we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or whatever you want).
 We
 plan to have an all-hands company meeting once or twice a year and
  fly
 everyone in for the event, but we rely on Yammer! and Unfuddle /
 git
 and mailing lists and Skype and iChat and so on. We can pair
 remotely
 as engineers whenever we want - not as good as pairing face-to-face
 but it works well enough.

  We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model
 that
   is
  focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make their
families
  important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
  reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely
working
 in
  various parts of the country.

 +1 on all of that.

  1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing
  with
   a
  remote staff.

 Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.

  2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.

 Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do
   them
at
 all.

  3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.

 Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker /
 version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use
 iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).

  4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who
 are
  uncomfortable with a remote staff.

 Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for
 customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
 --
 Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
 An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
 World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
 Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

 Perfection is the enemy of the good.
 -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)


   
   
  
  
 
 

 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Roger Austin


 Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote: 
 
 LOL, well unless u have stats it is nothing more than opinion, but common
 sense tells you that distractions stop you form working effectively.
 And the only way to avoid those distractions is to be away from them.

There are disciplines that you need for working remotely that don't come 
into play at the office. The office is the most common way to work so some 
issues with productivity are muted by the fact that the boss saw you there 
working and knew you weren't just goofing off. If you are out of the office, 
many bosses wonder if you are actually working. That said, there are people 
working in offices that get very little accomplished. 

Everyone is different, but I think there are some ideas that allow home 
working to be as productive or more than office work. One is that you need 
the proper setup and environment to do good work. For many people, that is 
a separate space with the equipment setup that allows for work. If you are 
working on the kitchen table, you might have a problem concentrating as 
people eat their cereal.

Another difficulty can be all the little issues that pop up that auto-magically 
get taken care of by office managers and other office staff. You order your 
own supplies, answer your own calls, make your own coffee, etc.

I work at home at least one day a week and it is great, but there I'm still 
trying to get my setup fleshed out so it is as productive as the office. Some 
tasks are no different from home to office. Others are more complicated by 
being away. Most of these are not related to software development though. (Many 
of us who do CFML development wear multiple hats.) I think I would be very 
happy working at home full time.

--
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/pub/roger-austin/8/a4/60
Twitter:  http://twitter.com/RogerTheGeek
Blog: http://rogerthegeek.wordpress.com/
http://www.misshunt.com/ Home of the Clean/Dirty Magnet


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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Jacob


Exactly.

Honey, since you are going to be home today can you fill in the blank with
all the chores your spouse wants you to do?

Plus, sometimes there are situation in which one-on-one meetings are
mandatory. When a project is falling through the cracks and about to crash
and burn, its probably best to round up the troops in person. At least in my
experience.

-Original Message-
From: Russ Michaels [mailto:r...@michaels.me.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 4:34 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are too
many distractions, tv, food, wife or g/f, even more so if you have small
kids screaming round the house all day or if you do not have a separate room
to use as an office.
I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).

Russ


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 +1 on everything said thus far re: telecommute. My company has  10
 employees, no office, and we're spread out over four states. We use 
 some tools already mentioned plus GoToMeeting.

 --
 John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss

 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger 
  mkru...@cfwebtools.com
  wrote:
   When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about
 relocation
   things got a lot easier for us.
 
  I'll +100 on this.
 
  At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and 
  conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from the 
  list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day 
  mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the 
  candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone 
  relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even 
  if they lived locally.
 
  At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I 
  joined because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up 
  the office in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time. 
  Now, when we hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if 
  you're right for us, we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or 
  whatever you want). We plan to have an all-hands company meeting 
  once or twice a year and fly everyone in for the event, but we rely 
  on Yammer! and Unfuddle / git and mailing lists and Skype and iChat 
  and so on. We can pair remotely as engineers whenever we want - not 
  as good as pairing face-to-face but it works well enough.
 
   We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model 
   that is focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make 
   their
 families
   important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive 
   reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely
 working
  in
   various parts of the country.
 
  +1 on all of that.
 
   1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing 
   with a remote staff.
 
  Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.
 
   2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.
 
  Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do 
  them
 at
  all.
 
   3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.
 
  Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker / 
  version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use 
  iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).
 
   4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who 
   are uncomfortable with a remote staff.
 
  Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for 
  customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
  --
  Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
  An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ World Singles, LLC. -- 
  http://worldsingles.com/ Railo Technologies, Inc. -- 
  http://www.getrailo.com/
 
  Perfection is the enemy of the good.
  -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)
 
 

 



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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Mark A. Kruger


In some ways there's a difference between telecommuting and working from
home - although most telecommuters do indeed work from home. When I started
CF Webtools all my customers were remote - so I qualified as a
telecommuter... at least I was not an on-site worker. But I bartered
office space from someone and set up a phone and I kept regular office
hours. 

Here are my tips? Go to bed at a decent hour. Get up and be online by 8:00.
Dress in something decent that makes you feel professional. Keep regular
office hours. Get regular exercise. If these tips sound familiar they
should. Most of the things that apply to the regular work place can apply to
home as well. If you choose to apply them you will generally reap the
rewards. But it takes practice and discipline. 

Regarding Sean's comments that he doesn't run into resistance from customers
regarding remote workers any more... we are bidding a variety of vertical
spaces, financial, insurance, medical. Many corporate cultures do indeed
have a hard time with this issue. You might call them late adapters. So we
strive to demonstrate our cohesion in spite of our disparate locations. But
it is an obstacle at times. I would agree that it's a greatly diminished
obstacle these days though.

-Mark




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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


 Honey, since you are going to be home today can you fill in the blank
with all the chores your spouse wants you to do?

I get this all the time. My wife spends 1 hr/day commuting and, for example,
likes cooking less than me. *However*, we both know that I *will* spend at
*least* 40 hrs/week working (usually more) and will have teleconferences,
etc.  Also, because I'm sysadmin and DBA, I am more-or-less on-call 24x7x365
via closest high-speed 'net access or 3/4G.  When we're on vacation, I
almost always have my laptop close by and now have a phone that allows for
tethering.

Bottom line: either you're effective or you're not effective.  Some people
will never be effective telecommuting.  Many will.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Jacob ja...@excaliburfilms.com wrote:


 Exactly.

 Honey, since you are going to be home today can you fill in the blank
 with
 all the chores your spouse wants you to do?

 Plus, sometimes there are situation in which one-on-one meetings are
 mandatory. When a project is falling through the cracks and about to crash
 and burn, its probably best to round up the troops in person. At least in
 my
 experience.

 -Original Message-
 From: Russ Michaels [mailto:r...@michaels.me.uk]
 Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 4:34 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


 working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are too
 many distractions, tv, food, wife or g/f, even more so if you have small
 kids screaming round the house all day or if you do not have a separate
 room
 to use as an office.
 I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
 proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).

 Russ


 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
  +1 on everything said thus far re: telecommute. My company has  10
  employees, no office, and we're spread out over four states. We use
  some tools already mentioned plus GoToMeeting.
 
  --
  John Bliss - http://about.me/jbliss
 
  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 2:20 AM, Sean Corfield seancorfi...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  
   On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 7:15 AM, Mark A. Kruger
   mkru...@cfwebtools.com
   wrote:
When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about
  relocation
things got a lot easier for us.
  
   I'll +100 on this.
  
   At Broadchoice, we figured out who we'd like to work for us and
   conducted screening interviews, then flew in our top picks (from the
   list of candidates who had expressed interest) for a two-day
   mini-conference with the full company team - and we made the
   candidates present to the team! We had no plans to make anyone
   relocate - we already let people telecommute a few days a week even
   if they lived locally.
  
   At World Singles, most of the company were telecommuting when I
   joined because we're a (small) global company. We quickly gave up
   the office in So. Cal. and let everyone work from home full time.
   Now, when we hire someone, location is simply not an issue: if
   you're right for us, we'll hire you (and you get to work in PJs or
   whatever you want). We plan to have an all-hands company meeting
   once or twice a year and fly everyone in for the event, but we rely
   on Yammer! and Unfuddle / git and mailing lists and Skype and iChat
   and so on. We can pair remotely as engineers whenever we want - not
   as good as pairing face-to-face but it works well enough.
  
We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model
that is focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make
their
  families
important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely
  working
   in
various parts of the country.
  
   +1 on all of that.
  
1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing
with a remote staff.
  
   Regular interaction via Skype, mailing lists, wikis.
  
2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.
  
   Keep them to a minimum - and use video conference calls when you do
   them
  at
   all.
  
3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.
  
   Keep all your resources in the cloud - use a hosted bug tracker /
   version control system. Use IM a LOT. Use Skype (with video). Use
   iChat (chat, audio, video, screen sharing - Mac rocks!).
  
4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who
are uncomfortable with a remote staff.
  
   Seriously? You still encounter this? I've worked remotely for
   customers for years - I've *never* seen resistance to this.
   --
   Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
   An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/ World Singles, LLC. --
   http://worldsingles.com/ Railo Technologies, Inc. --
   http://www.getrailo.com/
  
   Perfection is the enemy of the good.
   -- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880

RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Andrew Scott


Hate to say it, but with technology today you have many types of hardware
and software that can help you run a virtual office if you like. The only
thing that you have to be aware off is if you are disciplined enough to be
able to do it?


Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/

 -Original Message-
 From: Jacob [mailto:ja...@excaliburfilms.com]
 Sent: Thursday, 23 June 2011 11:46 PM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 Exactly.
 
 Honey, since you are going to be home today can you fill in the blank
with
 all the chores your spouse wants you to do?
 
 Plus, sometimes there are situation in which one-on-one meetings are
 mandatory. When a project is falling through the cracks and about to crash
 and burn, its probably best to round up the troops in person. At least in
my
 experience.
 


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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Mary Jo Sminkey


I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).


And for many of us, the opposite is the case. Being single and without kids, I 
actually have far fewer distractions at home than at work where there are often 
people chatting and talking on the phone, etc. around me. I also have developed 
some chronic back problems from sitting in a chair all day so in an office 
situation, have to get up and stretch on a regular basis, whereas at home I 
have more options for positions to work from and can work longer stretches 
without having to interrupt my work. 

Everyone's situation is unique and I think it's great that some employers 
realize this and are bending on the telecommuting issue. 


MJS


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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Moving to an office also helped me stop smoking. When at home I would go
downstairs for a smoke whenever I felt like it, at the REAL office I simply
didn't bother.
I worked from home for many years and it did work well, but in the end I
became complacent and bored, I think due to the fact that work and home were
the same thing and it felt like I was at work 24/7.
It really does help to be able to separate work from home life, having a
separate room as an office helps, as long as when you close the door work is
over. For me it is never over as running a hosting co means  I am doing
support as long as I am awake, but I guess for people that can get away with
9-5 it is slightly different.

But as Jacob mentioned, if your married the wife does tend to think that if
your home your not really working, so you can do chores for her.

Russ


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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Again, just to be safe, Dear future employer, Russ is talking about himself
/ some people. Many people will not have these problems so please *do*
consider hiring telecommuters.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:


 Moving to an office also helped me stop smoking. When at home I would go
 downstairs for a smoke whenever I felt like it, at the REAL office I simply
 didn't bother.
 I worked from home for many years and it did work well, but in the end I
 became complacent and bored, I think due to the fact that work and home
 were
 the same thing and it felt like I was at work 24/7.
 It really does help to be able to separate work from home life, having a
 separate room as an office helps, as long as when you close the door work
 is
 over. For me it is never over as running a hosting co means  I am doing
 support as long as I am awake, but I guess for people that can get away
 with
 9-5 it is slightly different.

 But as Jacob mentioned, if your married the wife does tend to think that if
 your home your not really working, so you can do chores for her.

 Russ


 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


LOL, I think your being a bit paranoid there John, this is a private list
remember,invite only :-)



On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:40 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 Again, just to be safe, Dear future employer, Russ is talking about
 himself
 / some people. Many people will not have these problems so please *do*
 consider hiring telecommuters.

 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk
 wrote:

 
  Moving to an office also helped me stop smoking. When at home I would go
  downstairs for a smoke whenever I felt like it, at the REAL office I
 simply
  didn't bother.
  I worked from home for many years and it did work well, but in the end I
  became complacent and bored, I think due to the fact that work and home
  were
  the same thing and it felt like I was at work 24/7.
  It really does help to be able to separate work from home life, having a
  separate room as an office helps, as long as when you close the door work
  is
  over. For me it is never over as running a hosting co means  I am doing
  support as long as I am awake, but I guess for people that can get away
  with
  9-5 it is slightly different.
 
  But as Jacob mentioned, if your married the wife does tend to think that
 if
  your home your not really working, so you can do chores for her.
 
  Russ
 
 
 

 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Jason Durham


This is a pretty interesting and, in some cases, comical discussion.  I
LOL'd when I read working in an office helped cure nicotine addiction.  It
sounds funny to hear it... but I *get* where you're coming from. :)

Like Mary Jo, I find that working in an office causes many more distractions
for me.  As much as I wanted to keep my door closed, my headphones on and my
keyboard rattling... the bosses frequently couldn't resist interrupting me
for something that was ultimately unimportant.


Jason Durham


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:40 AM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:


 Again, just to be safe, Dear future employer, Russ is talking about
 himself
 / some people. Many people will not have these problems so please *do*
 consider hiring telecommuters.

 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk
 wrote:

 
  Moving to an office also helped me stop smoking. When at home I would go
  downstairs for a smoke whenever I felt like it, at the REAL office I
 simply
  didn't bother.
  I worked from home for many years and it did work well, but in the end I
  became complacent and bored, I think due to the fact that work and home
  were
  the same thing and it felt like I was at work 24/7.
  It really does help to be able to separate work from home life, having a
  separate room as an office helps, as long as when you close the door work
  is
  over. For me it is never over as running a hosting co means  I am doing
  support as long as I am awake, but I guess for people that can get away
  with
  9-5 it is slightly different.
 
  But as Jacob mentioned, if your married the wife does tend to think that
 if
  your home your not really working, so you can do chores for her.
 
  Russ
 
 
 

 

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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Mark A. Kruger

Good point MJ. I have some exceptionally productive developers who are
working from home - largely single. I'm betting they would agree with you.
FYI - have you checked out Sean's site? :D

-Original Message-
From: Mary Jo Sminkey [mailto:mary...@cfwebstore.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 23, 2011 10:01 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

I have been far more productive since I moved out of the house and into a
proper office, as has my wife (who works for me).

And for many of us, the opposite is the case. Being single and without kids,
I actually have far fewer distractions at home than at work where there are
often people chatting and talking on the phone, etc. around me. I also have
developed some chronic back problems from sitting in a chair all day so in
an office situation, have to get up and stretch on a regular basis, whereas
at home I have more options for positions to work from and can work longer
stretches without having to interrupt my work. 

Everyone's situation is unique and I think it's great that some employers
realize this and are bending on the telecommuting issue. 

MJS

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Wil Genovese


Russ - you must be talking about that other list - This is CFTALK. :)


Wil Genovese
Sr. Web Application Developer/
Systems Administrator
CF Webtools
www.cfwebtools.com

wilg...@trunkful.com
www.trunkful.com

On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Russ Michaels wrote:

 
 LOL, I think your being a bit paranoid there John, this is a private list
 remember,invite only :-)
 
 
 
 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:40 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 Again, just to be safe, Dear future employer, Russ is talking about
 himself
 / some people. Many people will not have these problems so please *do*
 consider hiring telecommuters.
 
 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk
 wrote:
 
 
 Moving to an office also helped me stop smoking. When at home I would go
 downstairs for a smoke whenever I felt like it, at the REAL office I
 simply
 didn't bother.
 I worked from home for many years and it did work well, but in the end I
 became complacent and bored, I think due to the fact that work and home
 were
 the same thing and it felt like I was at work 24/7.
 It really does help to be able to separate work from home life, having a
 separate room as an office helps, as long as when you close the door work
 is
 over. For me it is never over as running a hosting co means  I am doing
 support as long as I am awake, but I guess for people that can get away
 with
 9-5 it is slightly different.
 
 But as Jacob mentioned, if your married the wife does tend to think that
 if
 your home your not really working, so you can do chores for her.
 
 Russ
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


sorry DOH!!! I lost track of which list I was replying to, too many threads
on the go at the same time heh
So yes potential employers, remote working does work well for some people,
everyone's situation is different, as is their ability to be organised, self
disciplined and hard working.

What I would say is that there is a pretty easy way to dispel any negative
feeling an employer may have, simply offer to be monitored to perform time
tracking. If you are not doing what you say you are doing then you have
nothing to hide.
Checkout http://www.paymo.biz/?ref=LB1IETWkZblq

They have 2 very handy tools
A time tracker widget which allows you to record your time spent on
individual tasks/jobs
And another tool called PaymoPlus, which you basically keep running all day
and it tracks how long you spend using each app/window so you can then run
off a report at the end of the day and link each app usage to a job/task. It
is not a big brother tool, so no-one is watching your activity, it is
managed by you.
http://www.paymo.biz/blog/paymo-plus-beta.html?ref=LB1IETWkZblq

Russ

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:57 PM, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote:


 Russ - you must be talking about that other list - This is CFTALK. :)


 Wil Genovese
 Sr. Web Application Developer/
 Systems Administrator
 CF Webtools
 www.cfwebtools.com

 wilg...@trunkful.com
 www.trunkful.com

 On Jun 23, 2011, at 10:48 AM, Russ Michaels wrote:

 
  LOL, I think your being a bit paranoid there John, this is a private list
  remember,invite only :-)
 
 
 
  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:40 PM, John M Bliss bliss.j...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
 
  Again, just to be safe, Dear future employer, Russ is talking about
  himself
  / some people. Many people will not have these problems so please *do*
  consider hiring telecommuters.
 
  On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk
  wrote:
 
 
  Moving to an office also helped me stop smoking. When at home I would
 go
  downstairs for a smoke whenever I felt like it, at the REAL office I
  simply
  didn't bother.
  I worked from home for many years and it did work well, but in the end
 I
  became complacent and bored, I think due to the fact that work and home
  were
  the same thing and it felt like I was at work 24/7.
  It really does help to be able to separate work from home life, having
 a
  separate room as an office helps, as long as when you close the door
 work
  is
  over. For me it is never over as running a hosting co means  I am doing
  support as long as I am awake, but I guess for people that can get away
  with
  9-5 it is slightly different.
 
  But as Jacob mentioned, if your married the wife does tend to think
 that
  if
  your home your not really working, so you can do chores for her.
 
  Russ
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:34 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:
 working from home doesn't work for a lot of people though, there are too
 many distractions

There are too many distractions _for you_ but WFH works very well for
a lot of organizations. World Singles, for example, is completely
distributed - management, sales  marketing, customer service,
engineering - everyone works from home. There are certainly some
_people_ for which WFH doesn't work :)
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 4:59 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:
 LOL, well unless u have stats it is nothing more than opinion, but common
 sense tells you that distractions stop you form working effectively.

There are lots of distractions in an office too.

 And the only way to avoid those distractions is to be away from them.

There are plenty of ways of dealing with distractions...
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote:
 Here are my tips? Go to bed at a decent hour. Get up and be online by 8:00.
 Dress in something decent that makes you feel professional. Keep regular
 office hours.

You're clearly not familiar with Californian work practices :)

At Macromedia, almost no one was at their desk before 10am (but yes,
they stayed later), and almost everyone wore jeans and T shirts. I
follow the same practice at home :)
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 8:35 AM, Russ Michaels r...@michaels.me.uk wrote:
 But as Jacob mentioned, if your married the wife does tend to think that if
 your home your not really working, so you can do chores for her.

That depends on who you married... ;)
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Mark A. Kruger mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote:
 FYI - have you checked out Sean's site? :D

For anyone who doesn't get the reference: http://worldsingles.com/ is
the umbrella brand and 16 of our properties are listed on the home
page - out of around 50 total properties. Most of those properties are
running on our legacy platform (ColdFusion 8, IIS, Windows, SQL
Server) but some sites are on our new platform (Railo, ColdBox,
Reactor, ColdSpring, Apache, Tomcat, Linux, MySQL - and Scala and
Clojure and, soon, MongoDB - and, yes, Reactor is gradually going
away, as will ColdBox at some point).
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

~|
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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Jenny Gavin-Wear


Still working .. 3am .. and this is not uncommon ;)

Laying down these sorts of generalised guidelines serves no purpose.

Sure, keeping some sort of routine makes sense, but we all work with the
routine that suits us.

I agree with Sean's comments, too.  When working with a Canadian outfit
getting into the office at 10am was perfectly acceptable, so was leaving at
midnight.

I would very occasionally see a developer in a suit and tie when visiting a
customer's premises, the rest of the time it was jeans and t-shirts.

-Original Message-
From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com]
Sent: 24 June 2011 02:54
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer



On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Mark A. Kruger
mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote:
 Here are my tips? Go to bed at a decent hour. Get up and be
online by 8:00.



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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-23 Thread Gerald Guido


Laying down these sorts of generalised guidelines serves no purpose.

Inspiration rarely follows a 9 to 5 pattern. Work wants me to be in at 8.
I am in the zone and do my best work from ~2 pm 'till I hit the wall,
usually around midnight to 2-3 AM or so. The powers that be about know this
but they still want me in @ 8 Oh well.

G!

On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 10:10 PM, Jenny Gavin-Wear 
jenn...@fasttrackonline.co.uk wrote:


 Still working .. 3am .. and this is not uncommon ;)

 Laying down these sorts of generalised guidelines serves no purpose.

 Sure, keeping some sort of routine makes sense, but we all work with the
 routine that suits us.

 I agree with Sean's comments, too.  When working with a Canadian outfit
 getting into the office at 10am was perfectly acceptable, so was leaving at
 midnight.

 I would very occasionally see a developer in a suit and tie when visiting a
 customer's premises, the rest of the time it was jeans and t-shirts.

 -Original Message-
 From: Sean Corfield [mailto:seancorfi...@gmail.com]
 Sent: 24 June 2011 02:54
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 
 On Thu, Jun 23, 2011 at 6:53 AM, Mark A. Kruger
 mkru...@cfwebtools.com wrote:
  Here are my tips? Go to bed at a decent hour. Get up and be
 online by 8:00.



 

~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-22 Thread Tariq Ahmed

Taking developers from other backgrounds has been one of our strategies:

http://riarockstars.com/2011/03/10/a-managers-take-on-the-state-of-cf-the-scarcity-talent/

The bare minimum effort to get something loosely working is way easier
in CF vs. Java. Unfortunately the majority of CF developers leave their
skills at that - thus finding true CF experts is extremely difficult.

Advanced Java/.NET folk pick CF up in two seconds, and they bring their
formal software development OO theory design with them. So we don't
even look specifically for CFers anymore, just strong developers in
general. Though the flip side to that is Sr. developers of another
language probably want to stick with their language of choice. So
finding people who are in-between intermediate and sr. is the sweet spot. :)

On 6/21/11 2:46 AM, Scott Brady wrote:
FWIW, I don't think it's that easy to become a good CF developer, either.
Yes, it's very easy to learn the language and it's easy to become
competent at it (i.e., being able to build something that works). But to
actually be good (best practices, advanced topics, etc.) isn't necessarily
simple. In fact, because it's so easy to get up and running, in some ways,
that might make it harder to become really good, because you don't need to
in order to get things done.

Java is definitely much more complex -- especially for people just getting
started -- and more powerful. But, I believe that if you're someone who is
actually good at CF (i.e., you're actually a developer rather than a coder),
you can learn Java.

Scott

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.com wrote:

I was saying the original statement is false since I would never trivialize
the effort needed to become proficient in Java. Becoming a good Java
programmer is not easy, as the original statement was implying.

~|
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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-22 Thread Mark A. Kruger


I have a small take on this...

When we mad telecommuting available and stopped worrying about relocation
things got a lot easier for us. We have managed to find very qualified and
ambitious CF programmers in various places to add to our staff. 

I'm writing a post on that topic that I hope to publish today in fact. 

My take is that when developers reach a certain level of expertise they have
a lot of options open to them - most of which allow them to be independent.
Some of them still move up the chain in the corporate world, but many are
findings ways to make a good living and still do what they want. The best
developers often need to do something interesting and they want to be
exposed to the breadth of possibilities (different frameworks, approaches,
the latest and greatest etc). 

We play to these strengths whenever we can. We provide a model that is
focused on the work performed not hours at a desk. We make their families
important to us. We provide them with a steady flow of positive
reinforcement. Out of a staff of 18 nearly half are now remotely working in
various parts of the country.

The hurdles to overcome are:

1) How do you develop community and facilitate knowledge sharing with a
remote staff.
2) How do you manage meetings and stakeholder interaction.
3) What technology is the most helpful with a remote staff.
4) How do you overcome the hesitancy of potential customers who are
uncomfortable with a remote staff.

Although we have learned a great deal, it is still a learning process for us
and I am constantly trying new things to tweak our culture.

-Mark


Mark A. Kruger, MCSE, CFG
(402) 408-3733 ext 105
www.cfwebtools.com
www.coldfusionmuse.com
www.necfug.com


-Original Message-
From: Tariq Ahmed [mailto:ta...@dopejam.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 8:48 AM
To: cf-talk
Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Taking developers from other backgrounds has been one of our strategies:

http://riarockstars.com/2011/03/10/a-managers-take-on-the-state-of-cf-the-sc
arcity-talent/

The bare minimum effort to get something loosely working is way easier 
in CF vs. Java. Unfortunately the majority of CF developers leave their 
skills at that - thus finding true CF experts is extremely difficult.

Advanced Java/.NET folk pick CF up in two seconds, and they bring their 
formal software development OO theory  design with them. So we don't 
even look specifically for CFers anymore, just strong developers in 
general. Though the flip side to that is Sr. developers of another 
language probably want to stick with their language of choice. So 
finding people who are in-between intermediate and sr. is the sweet spot. :)






On 6/21/11 2:46 AM, Scott Brady wrote:
 FWIW, I don't think it's that easy to become a good CF developer,
either.
 Yes, it's very easy to learn the language and it's easy to become
 competent at it (i.e., being able to build something that works).  But
to
 actually be good (best practices, advanced topics, etc.) isn't
necessarily
 simple.  In fact, because it's so easy to get up and running, in some
ways,
 that might make it harder to become really good, because you don't need to
 in order to get things done.

 Java is definitely much more complex -- especially for people just getting
 started -- and more powerful.  But, I believe that if you're someone who
is
 actually good at CF (i.e., you're actually a developer rather than a
coder),
 you can learn Java.

 Scott

 On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Mike Chabotmcha...@gmail.com  wrote:

 I was saying the original statement is false since I would never
trivialize
 the effort needed to become proficient in Java. Becoming a good Java
 programmer is not easy, as the original statement was implying.







~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-22 Thread Judah McAuley

I'm one of those, probably relatively few, devs that went the opposite
route, starting off in CF and then picking up C#. I didn't do CS in
college, actually any programming at all, but got a math degree so I
had the analytical skills at least and algorithmic thinking. I picked
up CF starting with 3.1 and then later on started picking up OO, AOP,
DI and other fun design patterns in the last couple of years, all in
CF. My (pretty much just me) company got acquired by a shop that is
all .NET in C# and so I've also spent part of the 2 or so years
getting up to speed in C#.

It's been interesting to see what transfers over and what doesn't. I
was ahead of a number of my coworkers when it came to things like
doing dependency injection, using MVC, using generics and using
delegates. But I didn't really have a sense of designing using
Interfaces and typing and type conversion frequently bites me in the
ass.

Anyway, in the end, I think that the important part is finding people
who are able to learn and have a desire to. Then give them the
opportunity and expose them to whatever the evolving best practices
are in that particular language/framework and make sure they have the
resources to keep learning. If you have all that, you'll end up with
good devs.

Judah

On Wed, Jun 22, 2011 at 6:48 AM, Tariq Ahmed ta...@dopejam.com wrote:

Taking developers from other backgrounds has been one of our strategies:

http://riarockstars.com/2011/03/10/a-managers-take-on-the-state-of-cf-the-scarcity-talent/

~|
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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-22 Thread Andrew Scott


Judah my point exactly.


Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/




 -Original Message-
 From: Judah McAuley [mailto:ju...@wiredotter.com]
 Sent: Thursday, 23 June 2011 4:12 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 I'm one of those, probably relatively few, devs that went the opposite
route,
 starting off in CF and then picking up C#. I didn't do CS in college,
actually any
 programming at all, but got a math degree so I had the analytical skills
at least
 and algorithmic thinking. I picked up CF starting with 3.1 and then later
on
 started picking up OO, AOP, DI and other fun design patterns in the last
 couple of years, all in CF. My (pretty much just me) company got acquired
by
 a shop that is all .NET in C# and so I've also spent part of the 2 or so
years
 getting up to speed in C#.
 
 It's been interesting to see what transfers over and what doesn't. I was
 ahead of a number of my coworkers when it came to things like doing
 dependency injection, using MVC, using generics and using delegates. But I
 didn't really have a sense of designing using Interfaces and typing and
type
 conversion frequently bites me in the ass.
 
 Anyway, in the end, I think that the important part is finding people who
are
 able to learn and have a desire to. Then give them the opportunity and
 expose them to whatever the evolving best practices are in that particular
 language/framework and make sure they have the resources to keep
 learning. If you have all that, you'll end up with good devs.
 
 Judah


~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-21 Thread Paul Kukiel


We brought a java dev over to CF.  Worked a treat.  Basically no training
required and when we need some java we have an expert.  Same as java to flex
and easy transition.

We also use java through out our app and try to use it especialy with lots
of string operations as java os sop much faster.  They really do go hand in
hand.

Paul
http://blog.kukiel.net

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:18 AM, scott bloodworth sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com
 wrote:


 Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
 learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a benefit
 in looking for one or the other in employment?

 

~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-21 Thread Scott Brady


FWIW, I don't think it's that easy to become a good CF developer, either.
Yes, it's very easy to learn the language and it's easy to become
competent at it (i.e., being able to build something that works).  But to
actually be good (best practices, advanced topics, etc.) isn't necessarily
simple.  In fact, because it's so easy to get up and running, in some ways,
that might make it harder to become really good, because you don't need to
in order to get things done.

Java is definitely much more complex -- especially for people just getting
started -- and more powerful.  But, I believe that if you're someone who is
actually good at CF (i.e., you're actually a developer rather than a coder),
you can learn Java.

Scott

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote:


 I was saying the original statement is false since I would never trivialize
 the effort needed to become proficient in Java. Becoming a good Java
 programmer is not easy, as the original statement was implying.


-- 
-
Scott Brady
http://www.scottbrady.net/


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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-21 Thread Andrew Scott


Paul,

It goes without saying that string manipulation, whether adding to it or
removing it etc., is so much slower in ColdFusion. Something I am guessing a
lot of people still are not aware off.


Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/




 -Original Message-
 From: Paul Kukiel [mailto:pkuk...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 7:41 PM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 We brought a java dev over to CF.  Worked a treat.  Basically no training
 required and when we need some java we have an expert.  Same as java to
 flex and easy transition.
 
 We also use java through out our app and try to use it especialy with lots
of
 string operations as java os sop much faster.  They really do go hand in
hand.
 
 Paul
 http://blog.kukiel.net
 


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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-21 Thread Greg Morphis


Not really hand in hand both ways...
It goes the way you're talking about yes but take a CF programmer and throw
them to a Java project and it won't be so graceful a move...
The learning curve on the Java side FAR exceeds ColdFusion.. as someone
learning Java, I can attest to this.
You have to know the basics of Java before you can even get started with
web programming in Java.
And if the shop you're working with is using a framework, Struts, Spring,
etc.. adds more work.

So yes, a Java programmer can add a lot to a CF shop, but a ColdFusion
programmer adds nothing but headache to a Java shop (at least at first ;)

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 4:40 AM, Paul Kukiel pkuk...@gmail.com wrote:


 We brought a java dev over to CF.  Worked a treat.  Basically no training
 required and when we need some java we have an expert.  Same as java to
 flex
 and easy transition.

 We also use java through out our app and try to use it especialy with lots
 of string operations as java os sop much faster.  They really do go hand in
 hand.

 Paul
 http://blog.kukiel.net

 On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:18 AM, scott bloodworth 
 sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com
  wrote:

 
  Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
  learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a
 benefit
  in looking for one or the other in employment?
 
 

 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-21 Thread Mike Chabot


Scott,

I agree with what you wrote. The original poster seemed to be asking the
question from an employment standpoint. As I wrote earlier, anyone is
capable of learning anything, but having the ability to learn a skill and
actually possessing that skill are different states and have different
values to an employer. Most employers want someone who can be productive in
their first week, not someone who needs to be sent off to a training class
shortly after being hired.



Based on his other recent posts, I don't believe the original poster is a
computer programmer looking to learn a skill. I believe he is looking for
programmers to hire. If this is the case, as others have already suggested,
hiring a Java programmer, sending that person to a couple Fig Leaf classes
to learn CF, then pairing that person with an experienced CF developer for
their first project would be a good way to address the current shortage of
good CF programmers in various regions. Rhode Island (where the OP is), is
not a hotbed of CF talent, but it is surrounded by some of the world's best
universities that pump out a fresh crop of Java programmers every year.


-Mike Chabot

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 5:46 AM, Scott Brady dsbr...@gmail.com wrote:


 FWIW, I don't think it's that easy to become a good CF developer, either.
 Yes, it's very easy to learn the language and it's easy to become
 competent at it (i.e., being able to build something that works).  But to
 actually be good (best practices, advanced topics, etc.) isn't
 necessarily
 simple.  In fact, because it's so easy to get up and running, in some ways,
 that might make it harder to become really good, because you don't need to
 in order to get things done.

 Java is definitely much more complex -- especially for people just getting
 started -- and more powerful.  But, I believe that if you're someone who is
 actually good at CF (i.e., you're actually a developer rather than a
 coder),
 you can learn Java.

 Scott

 On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 3:57 PM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote:

 
  I was saying the original statement is false since I would never
 trivialize
  the effort needed to become proficient in Java. Becoming a good Java
  programmer is not easy, as the original statement was implying.





~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-21 Thread Paul Kukiel


I agree.  My perspective came as one sided as we take on people new to CF
and commign from java is fine.  ( we don't hire CF people to train them in
java )

If we took one of our younger devs from CF and tried to teach them java it
would be alot harder if you didn't have a CS background or OO experience in
another language.

Paul.

On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 10:51 PM, Greg Morphis gmorp...@gmail.com wrote:


 Not really hand in hand both ways...
 It goes the way you're talking about yes but take a CF programmer and throw
 them to a Java project and it won't be so graceful a move...
 The learning curve on the Java side FAR exceeds ColdFusion.. as someone
 learning Java, I can attest to this.
 You have to know the basics of Java before you can even get started with
 web programming in Java.
 And if the shop you're working with is using a framework, Struts, Spring,
 etc.. adds more work.

 So yes, a Java programmer can add a lot to a CF shop, but a ColdFusion
 programmer adds nothing but headache to a Java shop (at least at first ;)

 On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 4:40 AM, Paul Kukiel pkuk...@gmail.com wrote:

 
  We brought a java dev over to CF.  Worked a treat.  Basically no training
  required and when we need some java we have an expert.  Same as java to
  flex
  and easy transition.
 
  We also use java through out our app and try to use it especialy with
 lots
  of string operations as java os sop much faster.  They really do go hand
 in
  hand.
 
  Paul
  http://blog.kukiel.net
 
  On Tue, Jun 21, 2011 at 3:18 AM, scott bloodworth 
  sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com
   wrote:
 
  
   Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
   learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a
  benefit
   in looking for one or the other in employment?
  
  
 
 

 

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CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread scott bloodworth


Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily learn 
the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a benefit in looking 
for one or the other in employment? 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Jason Durham


Depends on experience.

In general, a Java developer could be more-easily trained in CF.

Jason Durham


On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:18 PM, scott bloodworth 
sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com wrote:


 Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
 learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a benefit
 in looking for one or the other in employment?

 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Patrick Santora


I believe it has more to do with how you desire programming within
ColdFusion as you can program against it in either a procedural and/or OOP
manner. Since CF sits on JRun which is a Java engine it simply uses java as
it's workhorse for everything and since Java is a OOP language if you
planned on going an OOP route in CF then it's pretty safe to say you will
have an easier time transitioning between the two whenever desired.

Hope this helps.

-Pat

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:18 AM, scott bloodworth 
sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com wrote:


 Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
 learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a benefit
 in looking for one or the other in employment?

 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Mike Chabot


What you heard is false. I agree with what Jason said.

-Mike Chabot

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:18 PM, scott bloodworth sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com
 wrote:


 Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
 learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a benefit
 in looking for one or the other in employment?



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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Patrick Santora


Out of curiosity, how is that false Mike?

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote:


 What you heard is false. I agree with what Jason said.

 -Mike Chabot

 On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:18 PM, scott bloodworth 
 sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com
  wrote:

 
  Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
  learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a
 benefit
  in looking for one or the other in employment?
 


 

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Wil Genovese


If a person does not know Java there is a steep learning curve. The reverse is 
not true, ColdFusion is relatively easy to learn. Thus a Java programmer would 
typically have an easier time transitioning to ColdFusion than the reverse 
scenario.  All the typical qualifiers in place (on average, typical, only 
applies to some, but not all, etc.)


Wil Genovese
Sr. Web Application Developer/
Systems Administrator
CF Webtools
www.cfwebtools.com

wilg...@trunkful.com
www.trunkful.com

On Jun 20, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Patrick Santora wrote:

 
 Out of curiosity, how is that false Mike?
 
 On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
 What you heard is false. I agree with what Jason said.
 
 -Mike Chabot
 
 On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:18 PM, scott bloodworth 
 sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com
 wrote:
 
 
 Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
 learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a
 benefit
 in looking for one or the other in employment?
 
 
 
 
 
 

~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Patrick Santora


Understandable.

However my point was towards what would need to be encompassed in order to
work within the both environments efficiently. Of course ColdFusion is
easier and most likely always will be. But I felt some clarity was needed
since the question was flirting with a commonality between the two
environments.

Thanks Wil

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 12:08 PM, Wil Genovese jugg...@trunkful.com wrote:


 If a person does not know Java there is a steep learning curve. The reverse
 is not true, ColdFusion is relatively easy to learn. Thus a Java programmer
 would typically have an easier time transitioning to ColdFusion than the
 reverse scenario.  All the typical qualifiers in place (on average, typical,
 only applies to some, but not all, etc.)


 Wil Genovese
 Sr. Web Application Developer/
 Systems Administrator
 CF Webtools
 www.cfwebtools.com

 wilg...@trunkful.com
 www.trunkful.com

 On Jun 20, 2011, at 2:02 PM, Patrick Santora wrote:

 
  Out of curiosity, how is that false Mike?
 
  On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Mike Chabot mcha...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 
  What you heard is false. I agree with what Jason said.
 
  -Mike Chabot
 
  On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:18 PM, scott bloodworth 
  sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com
  wrote:
 
 
  Have heard that these two skill sets work hand in hand.  One can easily
  learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?  is there a
  benefit
  in looking for one or the other in employment?
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

~|
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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Any developer who thinks analytically can learn any language, once you
already have it in your head what you need to do, learning any language can
be easy.

CF is good because it allows non-programmers to get up and running quickly,
so the learning curve is smaller than any other language. Which can also be
its downside because it also promotes badly written code as well, and in my
opinion that will end up hurting the language even more.

I have seen a non-programmer learn CF, a groovy/grails developer learn CF
and all they have in common is the aptitude.


Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/




 -Original Message-
 From: Jason Durham [mailto:jqdur...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 3:21 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 Depends on experience.
 
 In general, a Java developer could be more-easily trained in CF.
 
 Jason Durham
 
 


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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Actually than can work hand in hand, there are a lot of things that
ColdFusion can't do out of the box. But there is a massive library of Java
Code out there, with a small tweak can be written and leveraged of in
ColdFusion.

As an example.

Mark Mandels JavaLoader has helped with libraries like the OWASPI project,
try writing that in ColdFusion. You can certainly use it, but you would
struggle to write it in ColdFusion alone.

Other examples, you might need to have a top tier servlet. Which would be
able to sit at the level before ColdFusion, and this would need to be
written in Java if you want this to across platforms.

I could go on and on with many examples where you are wrong Mike.


Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/



 -Original Message-
 From: Mike Chabot [mailto:mcha...@gmail.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 4:56 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 What you heard is false. I agree with what Jason said.
 
 -Mike Chabot
 


~|
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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer


This is only true if they have not been exposed to other languages to begin
with, programming is not just about the language you are programming in. But
the logical flow of the code, to say that a CF developer would not be able
to go to Java is not true. They might struggle if they don't have an
analytical approach to any language, but I have seen CF developers learn
grails/groovy and hundreds of other languages like Rails.

But yeah if you're a designer and have picked up CF then sure that would
make it a touch more difficult, but I have even seen designers pick up Java
with ease because they can approach it in the right manner.


Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/


 -Original Message-
 From: Wil Genovese [mailto:jugg...@trunkful.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 5:08 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 If a person does not know Java there is a steep learning curve. The
reverse is
 not true, ColdFusion is relatively easy to learn. Thus a Java programmer
 would typically have an easier time transitioning to ColdFusion than the
 reverse scenario.  All the typical qualifiers in place (on average,
typical, only
 applies to some, but not all, etc.)
 
 
 Wil Genovese
 Sr. Web Application Developer/
 Systems Administrator
 CF Webtools
 www.cfwebtools.com
 
 wilg...@trunkful.com
 www.trunkful.com
 


~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Wil Genovese


I don't know, I've programmed Assembler, FORTRAN, C/C++ and many others. Java 
has a funky way of doing things as far as I am concerned.


Wil Genovese
Sr. Web Application Developer/
Systems Administrator
CF Webtools
www.cfwebtools.com

wilg...@trunkful.com
www.trunkful.com

On Jun 20, 2011, at 3:11 PM, Andrew Scott wrote:

 
 This is only true if they have not been exposed to other languages to begin
 with, programming is not just about the language you are programming in. But
 the logical flow of the code, to say that a CF developer would not be able
 to go to Java is not true. They might struggle if they don't have an
 analytical approach to any language, but I have seen CF developers learn
 grails/groovy and hundreds of other languages like Rails.
 
 But yeah if you're a designer and have picked up CF then sure that would
 make it a touch more difficult, but I have even seen designers pick up Java
 with ease because they can approach it in the right manner.
 
 
 Regards,
 Andrew Scott
 http://www.andyscott.id.au/
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Wil Genovese [mailto:jugg...@trunkful.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 5:08 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 If a person does not know Java there is a steep learning curve. The
 reverse is
 not true, ColdFusion is relatively easy to learn. Thus a Java programmer
 would typically have an easier time transitioning to ColdFusion than the
 reverse scenario.  All the typical qualifiers in place (on average,
 typical, only
 applies to some, but not all, etc.)
 
 
 Wil Genovese
 Sr. Web Application Developer/
 Systems Administrator
 CF Webtools
 www.cfwebtools.com
 
 wilg...@trunkful.com
 www.trunkful.com
 
 
 
 

~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Jason Durham


It seems like the nitpicking thus far is really superfluous.  Learning CFML
doesn't get you any closer to being a Java developer than learning .NET.
The converse is probably true (learning .NET is a better step in that
direction).

If you already know CFML and are looking to expand your skillset, Java would
compliment your skills in CF. Being that you posed this question, I imagine
learning Java won't be easy but if you have the desire and time, I say go
for it.

FWIW, I wasn't insinuating anything by my last comment.  I'm just under the
impression that you haven't spent much time with Java.  Pick up a book or
two and see if you like it.

Jason Durham


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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer


Yeah I have programmed, CPM, Card Readers, 8086, 6502, 6510 and the later to
the Consoles of Mega Drive, NES, SENS etc. And much more.

The point is each language has its own quirks to learn, etc. But you can
still get up and running in next to no time with some small apps, in any
language you choose.

People like you Will is what I am referring too, you understand the flow you
want. And you can use that to learn any language you put your mind too, its
not difficult to get into the front door. Learning all the patterns etc then
that becomes difficult if you don't understand them.

Hell it took me 15 years to learn OOP, back in the days of C++ I always
believed that the extra code and data in a class was a waste. Then one day
it just clicked, but by that stage I was into programming Java and had to
force myself to accept that OOP was good for me.


Regards,
Andrew Scott
http://www.andyscott.id.au/



 -Original Message-
 From: Wil Genovese [mailto:jugg...@trunkful.com]
 Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 6:22 AM
 To: cf-talk
 Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
 I don't know, I've programmed Assembler, FORTRAN, C/C++ and many
 others. Java has a funky way of doing things as far as I am concerned.
 
 
 Wil Genovese
 Sr. Web Application Developer/
 Systems Administrator
 CF Webtools
 www.cfwebtools.com
 
 wilg...@trunkful.com
 www.trunkful.com
 
 On Jun 20, 2011, at 3:11 PM, Andrew Scott wrote:
 
 
  This is only true if they have not been exposed to other languages to
  begin with, programming is not just about the language you are
  programming in. But the logical flow of the code, to say that a CF
  developer would not be able to go to Java is not true. They might
  struggle if they don't have an analytical approach to any language,
  but I have seen CF developers learn grails/groovy and hundreds of other
 languages like Rails.
 
  But yeah if you're a designer and have picked up CF then sure that
  would make it a touch more difficult, but I have even seen designers
  pick up Java with ease because they can approach it in the right manner.
 
 
  Regards,
  Andrew Scott
  http://www.andyscott.id.au/
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From: Wil Genovese [mailto:jugg...@trunkful.com]
  Sent: Tuesday, 21 June 2011 5:08 AM
  To: cf-talk
  Subject: Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer
 
 
  If a person does not know Java there is a steep learning curve. The
  reverse is
  not true, ColdFusion is relatively easy to learn. Thus a Java
  programmer would typically have an easier time transitioning to
  ColdFusion than the reverse scenario.  All the typical qualifiers in
  place (on average,
  typical, only
  applies to some, but not all, etc.)
 
 
  Wil Genovese
  Sr. Web Application Developer/
  Systems Administrator
  CF Webtools
  www.cfwebtools.com
 
  wilg...@trunkful.com
  www.trunkful.com
 
 
 
 
 
 ~~
 ~~~|
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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Mike Chabot


The person asking the question appears to be someone without much experience
in either language and is likely not a programming master with a 15 year
work history. In theory, anybody can lean anything. I could become a brain
surgeon if I really put my mind to it, but I don't think the original poster
was looking for you can do it! motivation.  If he tries to get a job doing
Java programming, I don't think anyone would hire him and put him through an
extensive training course. Most employers could easily find an inexperienced
new college grad that at least knows Java, considering that is what most
high schools and colleges teach.

I was saying the original statement is false since I would never trivialize
the effort needed to become proficient in Java. Becoming a good Java
programmer is not easy, as the original statement was implying. It
involves a lot of hard work and takes years. A CF site might benefit from
adding in some Java code, but a Java-based Web site would never use CF code,
so the work hand in hand part of the statement false, since that statement
implies a benefit in both directions. Working hand in hand means both
technologies are closely linked and are used together, which is almost never
the case. I would estimate that around 1% of CF sites make use of
significant Java code and 0% of Java-based Web sites make use of any CF
code. I would agree that you can easily drop Java code into a  CF site, but
almost nobody does this in the current versions of CF since CF 9 provides
nearly every feature a Web site could need without having to extend it in
any significant way.

-Mike Chabot

On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Andrew Scott andr...@andyscott.id.auwrote:


 Actually than can work hand in hand, there are a lot of things that
 ColdFusion can't do out of the box. But there is a massive library of Java
 Code out there, with a small tweak can be written and leveraged of in
 ColdFusion.


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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Sean Corfield


On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Jason Durham jqdur...@gmail.com wrote:
 It seems like the nitpicking thus far is really superfluous.  Learning CFML
 doesn't get you any closer to being a Java developer than learning .NET.
 The converse is probably true (learning .NET is a better step in that
 direction).

.NET (C#) and Java are certainly closer to each other than CFML is to either.

 If you already know CFML and are looking to expand your skillset, Java would
 compliment your skills in CF.

One thing I'll caution is that if all you know is CFML and you then
learn Java, resist the temptation to write your CFML code like your
Java code - CFML is a dynamic scripting language that doesn't know
require everything to be an object, unlike Java which is a
strongly-typed, compile-deploy-debug language where everything must be
an object. I don't think CFers realize how rigid and different Java
really is - and these days there are many far better languages
available on the JVM than Java. Groovy for dynamic but traditional
approaches, Scala for strongly-typed functional-OO hybrid without
Java's verbosity, Clojure for dynamic pure functional. Heck, even
JRuby is probably a better bet than Java (but it's interop story is
not as good as the other three I mentioned).

Knowing the Java stack and libraries is more important than knowing
the Java language itself.
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880

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Re: CF vs. Java Web Developer

2011-06-20 Thread Sean Corfield


On Mon, Jun 20, 2011 at 10:18 AM, scott bloodworth
sbloodwo...@rinovelty.com wrote:
 One can easily learn the other environment fairly easy, is this true?

As others have indicated, learning Java is much harder than learning CFML.

 is there a benefit in looking for one or the other in employment?

I don't think anyone will disagree that there are a lot more Java jobs
out there than CFML jobs.

You probably need to provide a bit more background about yourself,
your skills, your expectations etc before folks can really give you
more specific advice.
-- 
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/
Railo Technologies, Inc. -- http://www.getrailo.com/

Perfection is the enemy of the good.
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

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RE: CF vs. Java Web Developer