Re: Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

Hi Greg,

You can research the righting moment, at say 30 - 33 degrees, for 
various boats in your size range for a second opinion. The 33-2 is 
similar in stability to my 35 mk-1(check diagram in the Technical 
Info on Stu's CNC site).


I put the load at about 10,000 lbs, so building for 12 - 15,000 lbs 
is not a unreasonable. If you're going with aluminum only then I 
would spec it at 20,000 for a 50% corrosion allowance and say, "I 
expect this to last another 20 years."


BTW, check with Rich Knowles on my credentials, if in doubt. :)

Hi Rich, we miss you on the Left Coast.

Cheers, Russ
Sweet 35 mk-1

At 03:15 AM 26/06/2017, you wrote:
Does anyone know what the maximum load would be on the mast step of 
the 33? I'm trying to figure out the psi force for a rebuild

Thanks!

Greg
33-2
Halifax
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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

If magnets kill living cells, the MRI machine would be really dangerous!
Joe
Coquina

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 4:15 PM
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

And don't forget that Algae-X immediately upstream of the Racor.  :)

Link to Touche's Racor and Algae-X installation:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_sb5TfIENvsdVl2cnd3NEJrWG8

Note the vacuum gauge needle is in the yellow.  Time to change the element.  I 
usually put 200+ hours a year on it.

Dennis C.

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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

>
> And don't forget that Algae-X immediately upstream of the Racor.  :)


Link to Touche's Racor and Algae-X installation:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_sb5TfIENvsdVl2cnd3NEJrWG8

Note the vacuum gauge needle is in the yellow.  Time to change the
element.  I usually put 200+ hours a year on it.

Dennis C.
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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

My old Racor 220 was a 2 um filter, as well. Used it for 3 years without 
problem (other than fuel leaking from the plunger); though, I changed it 
annually. This might also be a question how much you are motoring (“annually” 
may mean 50 h (in my case) or 500 h is someone else’s).

But no question, the standard procedure is a 30 um filter/water separator first 
and a 2 um final filter on the engine.

Marek

From: svpegasus38 via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 15:18
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: svpegasus38
Subject: Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

I had a 2 micron filter 4 feet before the engine filter housing (had to pull 
heat exchanger to change it). Before the 2 micron canister filter was a 30 
micron racors 500 filter.  Never had a problem with the engine fuel supply in 
10 years. I always used Soltron when I got fuel.

Only time I had a problem was coming across the Straits of Juan de Fuca. Engine 
died in flat calm water, changed both filters restarted engine and was off 
again. I had forgot to change the filter for about 5 years. Oops.


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
Doug Mountjoy
POYC
Pegasus
Lf38
Significant Other
LF39



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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[svpegasus38 via CnC-List]

I had a 2 micron filter 4 feet before the engine filter housing (had to pull 
heat exchanger to change it). Before the 2 micron canister filter was a 30 
micron racors 500 filter.  Never had a problem with the engine fuel supply in 
10 years. I always used Soltron when I got fuel. Only time I had a problem was 
coming across the Straits of Juan de Fuca. Engine died in flat calm water, 
changed both filters restarted engine and was off again. I had forgot to change 
the filter for about 5 years. Oops. 

Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy POYC Pegasus Lf38 Significant 
Other LF39 
 Original message From: Gary Smith via CnC-List 
 Date: 6/26/17  10:53  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: Gary Smith  Subject: Re: 
Stus-List Air in fuel line #2 
I'd be very interested in the outcome. As I said, in my experience both the old 
and new Racor filters suffered from the same problem with the 2 micron cassette 
installed. A new racor unit was installed as part of the fault diagnosis.

My Yanmar has a 2 micron filter situated right on the engine (very short hoses) 
and after the fuel lift pump, it has a 10 micron filter before the pump. I 
really believe that your problem is a 2 micron filter under vacuum.

On 26 June 2017 at 15:34, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List  
wrote:


Thanks for your responses. To answer some of the questions raised, the pumps 
were placed downstream of the Racor for a couple of reasons.




1. The pump original location was upstream of the Racor (30 micron) which was 
recommended by the Beta engineer because these small pumps do not have much 
vertical lift capability. OTOH, their internals have a very small orifice that 
can and did block the fuel flow since it was unfiltered at that location. Since 
they were in-line pumps, the solution was to swap out the pump or filter (some 
have a small one on the inlet to the pump). However, doing this in the small 
confines of the pump location was a giant PITA, especially since they failed 
while the motor was in use--while on the water! Rigging a parallel set in this 
upstream location was also difficult because of the limited space.





2. To mitigate this failure possibility, 2 pumps with check valves were 
installed in parallel powered by the ignition switch, with another switch that 
would select which pump to use. Both of these have enough lift capability (I 
think!) to suck filtered fuel thru the Racor and push it to the primary filter. 
They certainly pumped fuel well when I took the hose off the engine 
filter--albeit initially with frothy fuel or just air in the line. Plus at this 
location, any fuel they see has passed thru the Racor so they are very unlikely 
to clog themselves.





3. My diesel mechanic is to determine the source of the problem today--if he 
can. If not, he will replace the pick-up tube assembly and install a new, 
possibly different Racor filter/separator. IMHO, the model I have (500?) has a 
poorly designed, double O-ring top seal, which on my boat is impossible to see 
because of where the Racor is mounted (high and on the other side from the 
access panel). Getting the filter replaced, complete with 2 new O rings, is 
possible but not easy. Plus there is no way I can determine if the seas are 
clean except by 'feel'.





Maybe I will know more by tonight--if nothing else, both the Racor and the 
pickup assemble will be 'new'.





Thanks again for your thoughts,





Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

1995 C 36XL/kcb








cenel...@aol.com




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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!




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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

I've known full well that the 2 micron filter I run in my racor was much
smaller than that which is recommended by the manufacturer or conventional
wisdom.  I always figured that the 15gph rating of my Racor 200FG was so
much more than the required 1 to 2 gallons per hour that running a smaller
micron filter would provide better clean up at a marginally lower flow.
TBH the racor is easier to change - I'd change 10 racors before 1 engine
filter.  I also installed a vacuum gage on the outlet side of my Racor.  I
figured that it would tell me when the 2 micron filter was starting to
inhibit flow.  The gage has a green,  yellow and red band and reads in
inches of mercury.  I haven't changed the racor in ~4 years and the gage
reads the same as it ever has, only ~1 or 2 inches - just barely off the
peg when the engine is running.  I'll definitely have consider changing to
a higher micron filter in the future.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD



On Jun 26, 2017 2:02 PM, "Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List" <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> AFAIK best practice for a diesel is 10 microns before the fuel pump and 2
> microns on the engine after the fuel pump. Passagemaker had a series of
> articles on this.
>
>
>
>
>
> *Joe Della Barba*
>
> Coquina
>
> C 35 MK I
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Gary
> Smith via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Monday, June 26, 2017 1:54 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Gary Smith 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2
>
>
>
> I'd be very interested in the outcome. As I said, in my experience both
> the old and new Racor filters suffered from the same problem with the 2
> micron cassette installed. A new racor unit was installed as part of the
> fault diagnosis.
>
> My Yanmar has a 2 micron filter situated right on the engine (very short
> hoses) and after the fuel lift pump, it has a 10 micron filter before the
> pump. I really believe that your problem is a 2 micron filter under vacuum.
>
>
>
> On 26 June 2017 at 15:34, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks for your responses. To answer some of the questions raised, the
> pumps were placed downstream of the Racor for a couple of reasons.
>
>
>
> 1. The pump original location was upstream of the Racor (30 micron) which
> was recommended by the Beta engineer because these small pumps do not have
> much vertical lift capability. OTOH, their internals have a very small
> orifice that can and did block the fuel flow since it was unfiltered at
> that location. Since they were in-line pumps, the solution was to swap out
> the pump or filter (some have a small one on the inlet to the pump).
> However, doing this in the small confines of the pump location was a giant
> PITA, especially since they failed while the motor was in use--while on the
> water! Rigging a parallel set in this upstream location was also difficult
> because of the limited space.
>
>
>
> 2. To mitigate this failure possibility, 2 pumps with check valves were
> installed in parallel powered by the ignition switch, with another switch
> that would select which pump to use. Both of these have enough lift
> capability (I think!) to suck filtered fuel thru the Racor and push it to
> the primary filter. They certainly pumped fuel well when I took the hose
> off the engine filter--albeit initially with frothy fuel or just air in the
> line. Plus at this location, any fuel they see has passed thru the Racor so
> they are very unlikely to clog themselves.
>
>
>
> 3. My diesel mechanic is to determine the source of the problem today--if
> he can. If not, he will replace the pick-up tube assembly and install a
> new, possibly different Racor filter/separator. IMHO, the model I have
> (500?) has a poorly designed, double O-ring top seal, which on my boat is
> impossible to see because of where the Racor is mounted (high and on the
> other side from the access panel). Getting the filter replaced, complete
> with 2 new O rings, is possible but not easy. Plus there is no way I can
> determine if the seas are clean except by 'feel'.
>
>
>
> Maybe I will know more by tonight--if nothing else, both the Racor and the
> pickup assemble will be 'new'.
>
>
>
> Thanks again for your thoughts,
>
>
>
> Charlie Nelson
>
> Water Phantom
>
> 1995 C 36XL/kcb
>
>
>
>
>
> cenel...@aol.com
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>

Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

AFAIK best practice for a diesel is 10 microns before the fuel pump and 2 
microns on the engine after the fuel pump. Passagemaker had a series of 
articles on this.


Joe Della Barba
Coquina
C 35 MK I


From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Gary Smith 
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 1:54 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Gary Smith 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

I'd be very interested in the outcome. As I said, in my experience both the old 
and new Racor filters suffered from the same problem with the 2 micron cassette 
installed. A new racor unit was installed as part of the fault diagnosis.
My Yanmar has a 2 micron filter situated right on the engine (very short hoses) 
and after the fuel lift pump, it has a 10 micron filter before the pump. I 
really believe that your problem is a 2 micron filter under vacuum.

On 26 June 2017 at 15:34, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
> wrote:

Thanks for your responses. To answer some of the questions raised, the pumps 
were placed downstream of the Racor for a couple of reasons.

1. The pump original location was upstream of the Racor (30 micron) which was 
recommended by the Beta engineer because these small pumps do not have much 
vertical lift capability. OTOH, their internals have a very small orifice that 
can and did block the fuel flow since it was unfiltered at that location. Since 
they were in-line pumps, the solution was to swap out the pump or filter (some 
have a small one on the inlet to the pump). However, doing this in the small 
confines of the pump location was a giant PITA, especially since they failed 
while the motor was in use--while on the water! Rigging a parallel set in this 
upstream location was also difficult because of the limited space.

2. To mitigate this failure possibility, 2 pumps with check valves were 
installed in parallel powered by the ignition switch, with another switch that 
would select which pump to use. Both of these have enough lift capability (I 
think!) to suck filtered fuel thru the Racor and push it to the primary filter. 
They certainly pumped fuel well when I took the hose off the engine 
filter--albeit initially with frothy fuel or just air in the line. Plus at this 
location, any fuel they see has passed thru the Racor so they are very unlikely 
to clog themselves.

3. My diesel mechanic is to determine the source of the problem today--if he 
can. If not, he will replace the pick-up tube assembly and install a new, 
possibly different Racor filter/separator. IMHO, the model I have (500?) has a 
poorly designed, double O-ring top seal, which on my boat is impossible to see 
because of where the Racor is mounted (high and on the other side from the 
access panel). Getting the filter replaced, complete with 2 new O rings, is 
possible but not easy. Plus there is no way I can determine if the seas are 
clean except by 'feel'.

Maybe I will know more by tonight--if nothing else, both the Racor and the 
pickup assemble will be 'new'.

Thanks again for your thoughts,

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C 36XL/kcb


cenel...@aol.com

___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Re: Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

Selden Mast Tuning manual  
(http://www.seldenmast.com/files/1416926327/595-540-E.pdf (p.31)) says that the 
shrouds should be set to 15%-20% of the breaking load. Keep in mind that you 
have at least 4 shrouds plus the stay and the backstay. The letter two are at 
less acute angle, so the force is reduced (by the cosine of the angle (the 
force is reduced for the shrouds, as well, but the reduction is around 2%, so 
who cares)).

Marek

From: Dennis C. via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, June 26, 2017 09:55
To: CnClist
Cc: Dennis C.
Subject: Re: Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads

What's the breaking strength of the upper shrouds?  I'd think 50% of that would 
be conservative.

Dennis C.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:15 AM, Greg Sutherland via CnC-List 
 wrote:
Does anyone know what the maximum load would be on the mast step of the 33? I'm 
trying to figure out the psi force for a rebuild
Thanks!

Greg
33-2
Halifax
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All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[svpegasus38 via CnC-List]

I installed a vacuum gauge down stream of the racors. With new filters vacuum 
was almost nil, both at idle and cruise power. As the filters get dirty the 
vacuum will increase. Going to put a similar system on new boat. 


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE DeviceDoug Mountjoy POYC Pegasus Lf38Significant 
Other LF39 
 Original message From: Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 Date: 6/26/17  06:34  (GMT-08:00) To: 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com Cc: cenel...@aol.com Subject: Stus-List Air in fuel line 
#2 


Thanks for your responses. To answer some of the questions raised, the pumps 
were placed downstream of the Racor for a couple of reasons.




1. The pump original location was upstream of the Racor (30 micron) which was 
recommended by the Beta engineer because these small pumps do not have much 
vertical lift capability. OTOH, their internals have a very small orifice that 
can and did block the fuel flow since it was unfiltered at that location. Since 
they were in-line pumps, the solution was to swap out the pump or filter (some 
have a small one on the inlet to the pump). However, doing this in the small 
confines of the pump location was a giant PITA, especially since they failed 
while the motor was in use--while on the water! Rigging a parallel set in this 
upstream location was also difficult because of the limited space.





2. To mitigate this failure possibility, 2 pumps with check valves were 
installed in parallel powered by the ignition switch, with another switch that 
would select which pump to use. Both of these have enough lift capability (I 
think!) to suck filtered fuel thru the Racor and push it to the primary filter. 
They certainly pumped fuel well when I took the hose off the engine 
filter--albeit initially with frothy fuel or just air in the line. Plus at this 
location, any fuel they see has passed thru the Racor so they are very unlikely 
to clog themselves.





3. My diesel mechanic is to determine the source of the problem today--if he 
can. If not, he will replace the pick-up tube assembly and install a new, 
possibly different Racor filter/separator. IMHO, the model I have (500?) has a 
poorly designed, double O-ring top seal, which on my boat is impossible to see 
because of where the Racor is mounted (high and on the other side from the 
access panel). Getting the filter replaced, complete with 2 new O rings, is 
possible but not easy. Plus there is no way I can determine if the seas are 
clean except by 'feel'.





Maybe I will know more by tonight--if nothing else, both the Racor and the 
pickup assemble will be 'new'.





Thanks again for your thoughts,





Charlie Nelson

Water Phantom

1995 C 36XL/kcb








cenel...@aol.com



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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
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Stus-List 79 C 38MKII - For Sale

[tprice--- via CnC-List]

Hey all before I trade my boat in wanted to see if anybody on the list would be 
interested or knows anybody would be interested in my boat.

It’s a 79 C MKII.  Tons of work restoring it including new head pipes, 
freshwater system, electronics updated and simplified, winch farm relocated to 
cockpit to double hand using newer Lewmar Clutch system, all new halyards, 
sheaves, engine (westerbeke) rebuilt two seasons ago.  Rebuilt winches, etc.  
Only thing that needs work now is to rebuild backstay and a couple cushions 
could use a reapholster, and a pre-season scrub.

Yard misdiagnosed a keel smile/keel bolts, as culprit for a problem I was 
having taking on very low and slow amounts of water, turned out to be the 
rudder packing cup.  I have since filled, and fiber-glassed the keel.  The 
smile still needed to be dealt with, so that is done.  The rudder packing cup 
is being serviced this week.   So essentially a $100 repair was misdiagnosed 
and as a result (read wife said no more tinkering with old boat) I bought a new 
boat, and was going to trade the C in.  Given the updated status of the 
actual problem there is a deal to be had here.

I won’t turn down a reasonable offer but am planning on sailing it to the 
dealer in the next two weeks or so, to trade in unless somebody is interested 
in a very solid,  95+% restored boat.

Let me know.  Contact information below.

TP
Timothy B. Price
tpr...@ingamemedia.com
917.755.6145

AIM: timbprice, Yahoo: timothyprice_98, SKYPE: Timothy B Price, Twitter: 
@NYC10075


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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Another great idea from you-


I already have a gauge on top based on a previous post to the list. Assuming 
the gauge is not leaking itself (a friend who installed one had problems 
similar to mine and it turned out to be the gauge was leaking!), I love the 
idea of testing the vacuum by closing the main shut-off and observing the 
gauge!!


I thought the gauge was a good idea but, in practice, I did not know what good 
it did since I had no idea of what the vacuum should read when the engine was 
running. Certainly closing the fuel shutoff and pumping without starting would 
be a great diagnostic tool which I will put to use.


Thanks,


Charlie










cenel...@aol.com




-Original Message-
From: Dennis C. via CnC-List 
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Sent: Mon, Jun 26, 2017 9:53 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2



Charlie,


If you have room or if you relocate the Racor to where you have room, consider 
replacing the filter's T-handle with the Racor vacuum gauge.  Not only will you 
know exactly when to change filter elements but it will provide you with 
another tool for troubleshooting a similar proplem in the future.  You can 
close the fuel valve at the tank (assuming you have one), turn on the ignition 
and observe the vacuum.  If you have good vacuum, you have a tight system.  If 
not you can explore/test possible leak sites without having to start the engine.


BTW, Touche's fuel pump is located on the back of engine a few feet from the 
Racor.  Fuel pump location shouldn't be an issue in our fuel systems.  The line 
size and small volume of flow shouldn't result in significant pressure drop on 
either the suction or discharge side of the pump.  I agree the pump should be 
downstream of the primary filter.


Dennis C.



On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Thanks for your responses. To answer some of the questions raised, the pumps 
were placed downstream of the Racor for a couple of reasons.


1. The pump original location was upstream of the Racor (30 micron) which was 
recommended by the Beta engineer because these small pumps do not have much 
vertical lift capability. OTOH, their internals have a very small orifice that 
can and did block the fuel flow since it was unfiltered at that location. Since 
they were in-line pumps, the solution was to swap out the pump or filter (some 
have a small one on the inlet to the pump). However, doing this in the small 
confines of the pump location was a giant PITA, especially since they failed 
while the motor was in use--while on the water! Rigging a parallel set in this 
upstream location was also difficult because of the limited space.


2. To mitigate this failure possibility, 2 pumps with check valves were 
installed in parallel powered by the ignition switch, with another switch that 
would select which pump to use. Both of these have enough lift capability (I 
think!) to suck filtered fuel thru the Racor and push it to the primary filter. 
They certainly pumped fuel well when I took the hose off the engine 
filter--albeit initially with frothy fuel or just air in the line. Plus at this 
location, any fuel they see has passed thru the Racor so they are very unlikely 
to clog themselves.


3. My diesel mechanic is to determine the source of the problem today--if he 
can. If not, he will replace the pick-up tube assembly and install a new, 
possibly different Racor filter/separator. IMHO, the model I have (500?) has a 
poorly designed, double O-ring top seal, which on my boat is impossible to see 
because of where the Racor is mounted (high and on the other side from the 
access panel). Getting the filter replaced, complete with 2 new O rings, is 
possible but not easy. Plus there is no way I can determine if the seas are 
clean except by 'feel'.


Maybe I will know more by tonight--if nothing else, both the Racor and the 
pickup assemble will be 'new'.


Thanks again for your thoughts,


Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C 36XL/kcb




cenel...@aol.com


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!





___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you wish to 
make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 37/40+ holding tank

[Ron Ricci via CnC-List]

Alan,

I made a rig to backflush the vent line.  It consist of a toilet plunger and
a 'poop' collector.  The plunger is one of those that can hold a good amount
of water.  Here's a link to one:
https://smile.amazon.com/G-T-Water-Products-Inc-MP100-3/dp/B0006IXNDW/ref=sr
_1_14?ie=UTF8=1498484557=8-14=toilet+plunger.  The 'poop'
collector is made up from an PVC pipe fittings and hose.  It is basically a
1-1/2" reducing busing with adapters to a piece of 1/2" hose.  

If my tank vent clogs I can backflush the vent line.  First, pump the
holding tank as dry as possible.  Flushing air through the toilet helps.
Then hook up the 'poop' collector to your holding tank pumpout connection.
Route the hose to a bucket.  Take the plunger and fill it with clean water.
Hold the plunger against the tank vent where it penetrates the hull.
Depress the plunger to force water into the tank vent.  You may have to
repeat this several times.  Take a shop vacuum or your dinghy air pump and
pump air back into the vent line.  This will force any water out the vent
line.  You will notice dirty water in the 'poop' collector bucket.

You should be able to flush your vent line without disconnecting the vent
hose (very messy) and without pressuring the holding tank.  If you do have
to access the tank, here's a link to photos of my boat:
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AhpB-lul9d5YpgwQQIwkCopkxqSt.  The access hole on my
tank leaked so I replaced the cover and re-bed it with butyl rubber.  This
eliminated foul odor.

Good luck,

Ron

Ron Ricci
S/V Patriot
C 37+
Bristol, RI
ron.ri...@1968.usna.com

 


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Liles via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 7:32 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Alan Liles
Subject: Stus-List C 37/40+ holding tank

Has anyone on the list had to access their holding tank? My vent is plugged
and I need to access at least one end. There is a small access port in the
top of one of the vanity cupboards but that seems fairly useless as I can't
see much in there and my hands don't really fit. To get to the tank top it
looks like the sink and vanity top have to be removed which also involves
the shower plexiglass and support. Any ideas before I disassemble my entire
head?

Al Liles
SV Elendil
C/40+
Vancouver 


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Re: Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

What's the breaking strength of the upper shrouds?  I'd think 50% of that
would be conservative.

Dennis C.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 5:15 AM, Greg Sutherland via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know what the maximum load would be on the mast step of the
> 33? I'm trying to figure out the psi force for a rebuild
> Thanks!
>
> Greg
> 33-2
> Halifax
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> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
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>
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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Charlie,

If you have room or if you relocate the Racor to where you have room,
consider replacing the filter's T-handle with the Racor vacuum gauge.  Not
only will you know exactly when to change filter elements but it will
provide you with another tool for troubleshooting a similar proplem in the
future.  You can close the fuel valve at the tank (assuming you have one),
turn on the ignition and observe the vacuum.  If you have good vacuum, you
have a tight system.  If not you can explore/test possible leak sites
without having to start the engine.

BTW, Touche's fuel pump is located on the back of engine a few feet from
the Racor.  Fuel pump location shouldn't be an issue in our fuel systems.
The line size and small volume of flow shouldn't result in significant
pressure drop on either the suction or discharge side of the pump.  I agree
the pump should be downstream of the primary filter.

Dennis C.

On Mon, Jun 26, 2017 at 8:34 AM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>
> Thanks for your responses. To answer some of the questions raised, the
> pumps were placed downstream of the Racor for a couple of reasons.
>
> 1. The pump original location was upstream of the Racor (30 micron) which
> was recommended by the Beta engineer because these small pumps do not have
> much vertical lift capability. OTOH, their internals have a very small
> orifice that can and did block the fuel flow since it was unfiltered at
> that location. Since they were in-line pumps, the solution was to swap out
> the pump or filter (some have a small one on the inlet to the pump).
> However, doing this in the small confines of the pump location was a giant
> PITA, especially since they failed while the motor was in use--while on the
> water! Rigging a parallel set in this upstream location was also difficult
> because of the limited space.
>
> 2. To mitigate this failure possibility, 2 pumps with check valves were
> installed in parallel powered by the ignition switch, with another switch
> that would select which pump to use. Both of these have enough lift
> capability (I think!) to suck filtered fuel thru the Racor and push it to
> the primary filter. They certainly pumped fuel well when I took the hose
> off the engine filter--albeit initially with frothy fuel or just air in the
> line. Plus at this location, any fuel they see has passed thru the Racor so
> they are very unlikely to clog themselves.
>
> 3. My diesel mechanic is to determine the source of the problem today--if
> he can. If not, he will replace the pick-up tube assembly and install a
> new, possibly different Racor filter/separator. IMHO, the model I have
> (500?) has a poorly designed, double O-ring top seal, which on my boat is
> impossible to see because of where the Racor is mounted (high and on the
> other side from the access panel). Getting the filter replaced, complete
> with 2 new O rings, is possible but not easy. Plus there is no way I can
> determine if the seas are clean except by 'feel'.
>
> Maybe I will know more by tonight--if nothing else, both the Racor and the
> pickup assemble will be 'new'.
>
> Thanks again for your thoughts,
>
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
> 1995 C 36XL/kcb
>
>
> cenel...@aol.com
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Thanks Dennis--looks like the Racor is the likely culprit from your 
perspective. 


Whether that is the case in my situation or not, a Racor bypass sounds like a 
very good idea to quickly get fuel flowing again to get back to a dock.


Thanks,


Charlie


cenel...@aol.com




-Original Message-
From: Dennis C. via CnC-List 
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Sent: Mon, Jun 26, 2017 9:20 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line



My experience suggested 4 likely culprits; Racor o-ring, Racor gasket, rough 
sealing surface on the top of the Racor body and bowed cover for the Racor.


Put the Racor cover on a flat surface or use a straight edge across the cover.  
If it is "dished" downward, it may not be sealing well.


If you want to pin it down quickly, temporarily bypass the Racor with a jumper 
line with a cheap inline filter in it.  If the problem persists, look elsewhere.


Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA



On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 wrote:


My Beta 28 fuel system has recently developed a penchant for sucking air into 
the system somewhere upstream of my electric fuel pumps. (I have 2 installed in 
parallel so that I can switch between them if one dies or get clogged, etc.)


These pumps are downstream of my Racor 500 30 micron fuel filter/water 
separator. The input to the separator goes directly to the pickup tube assembly 
on the top of my fuel tank via a diesel fuel hose secured with 
hose-clamps--recently installed. (I motored at flank speed  for about 8 hours 
after the installation without any issues). The tank pickup tube assembly looks 
identical to a Moeller Fuel pick-up tube which mounts to the tank top and has 
nylon tube which goes straight down into the tank about 12 inches.


Something is allowing air to get in since my engine will stall frequently but 
randomly. On the first occurrence, I changed both the engine and the Racor 
filter. 


When it happened again within an hour of the filter change, I opened the system 
at the input to the engine filter and found either frothy fuel (lots of bubbles 
in it) or just an empty hose. Since the filters had just been changed, I 
figured it had to be a vacuum leak. (I was able to pump fuel into the line and 
get the engine started again each time it happened--over the course of a full 
day of motoring I would guess that it happened on average every 1/2 hour).


I tightened all the clamps and the Racor seal as much as I dared and this did 
not prevent the stalls.  


My mechanic is as mystified as I am but will likely check-out/replace both the 
Racor entirely and the fuel-pick-up tube. The pick-up tube is original which 
makes it about 22 years old. 


My thoughts are the Racor filter or vacuum gauge seals are bad/scored or just 
not seated properly OR the pickup tube assembly is leaking at the tank seal or 
the nylon tube itself has developed small holes or cracks that allow air to 
enter, especially with my fuel pump sucking fuel more efficiently than was 
possible with the mechanical pump on the engine (since bypassed). 


My questions to the list are--am I missing something else that could cause 
this? Has anyone else had similar vacuum issues and what was the 
cause/solution? 


Thanks,


Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C 36 XL/kcb





cenel...@aol.com


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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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___

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Air in fuel line #2

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

Thanks for your responses. To answer some of the questions raised, the pumps 
were placed downstream of the Racor for a couple of reasons.


1. The pump original location was upstream of the Racor (30 micron) which was 
recommended by the Beta engineer because these small pumps do not have much 
vertical lift capability. OTOH, their internals have a very small orifice that 
can and did block the fuel flow since it was unfiltered at that location. Since 
they were in-line pumps, the solution was to swap out the pump or filter (some 
have a small one on the inlet to the pump). However, doing this in the small 
confines of the pump location was a giant PITA, especially since they failed 
while the motor was in use--while on the water! Rigging a parallel set in this 
upstream location was also difficult because of the limited space.


2. To mitigate this failure possibility, 2 pumps with check valves were 
installed in parallel powered by the ignition switch, with another switch that 
would select which pump to use. Both of these have enough lift capability (I 
think!) to suck filtered fuel thru the Racor and push it to the primary filter. 
They certainly pumped fuel well when I took the hose off the engine 
filter--albeit initially with frothy fuel or just air in the line. Plus at this 
location, any fuel they see has passed thru the Racor so they are very unlikely 
to clog themselves.


3. My diesel mechanic is to determine the source of the problem today--if he 
can. If not, he will replace the pick-up tube assembly and install a new, 
possibly different Racor filter/separator. IMHO, the model I have (500?) has a 
poorly designed, double O-ring top seal, which on my boat is impossible to see 
because of where the Racor is mounted (high and on the other side from the 
access panel). Getting the filter replaced, complete with 2 new O rings, is 
possible but not easy. Plus there is no way I can determine if the seas are 
clean except by 'feel'.


Maybe I will know more by tonight--if nothing else, both the Racor and the 
pickup assemble will be 'new'.


Thanks again for your thoughts,


Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C 36XL/kcb




cenel...@aol.com

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

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Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

My experience suggested 4 likely culprits; Racor o-ring, Racor gasket,
rough sealing surface on the top of the Racor body and bowed cover for the
Racor.

Put the Racor cover on a flat surface or use a straight edge across the
cover.  If it is "dished" downward, it may not be sealing well.

If you want to pin it down quickly, temporarily bypass the Racor with a
jumper line with a cheap inline filter in it.  If the problem persists,
look elsewhere.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, Jun 25, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>
> My Beta 28 fuel system has recently developed a penchant for sucking air
> into the system somewhere upstream of my electric fuel pumps. (I have 2
> installed in parallel so that I can switch between them if one dies or get
> clogged, etc.)
>
> These pumps are downstream of my Racor 500 30 micron fuel filter/water
> separator. The input to the separator goes directly to the pickup tube
> assembly on the top of my fuel tank via a diesel fuel hose secured with
> hose-clamps--recently installed. (I motored at flank speed  for about 8
> hours after the installation without any issues). The tank pickup tube
> assembly looks identical to a Moeller Fuel pick-up tube which mounts to the
> tank top and has nylon tube which goes straight down into the tank about 12
> inches.
>
> Something is allowing air to get in since my engine will stall frequently
> but randomly. On the first occurrence, I changed both the engine and the
> Racor filter.
>
> When it happened again within an hour of the filter change, I opened the
> system at the input to the engine filter and found either frothy fuel (lots
> of bubbles in it) or just an empty hose. Since the filters had just been
> changed, I figured it had to be a vacuum leak. (I was able to pump fuel
> into the line and get the engine started again each time it happened--over
> the course of a full day of motoring I would guess that it happened on
> average every 1/2 hour).
>
> I tightened all the clamps and the Racor seal as much as I dared and this
> did not prevent the stalls.
>
> My mechanic is as mystified as I am but will likely check-out/replace both
> the Racor entirely and the fuel-pick-up tube. The pick-up tube is original
> which makes it about 22 years old.
>
> My thoughts are the Racor filter or vacuum gauge seals are bad/scored or
> just not seated properly OR the pickup tube assembly is leaking at the tank
> seal or the nylon tube itself has developed small holes or cracks that
> allow air to enter, especially with my fuel pump sucking fuel more
> efficiently than was possible with the mechanical pump on the engine (since
> bypassed).
>
> My questions to the list are--am I missing something else that could cause
> this? Has anyone else had similar vacuum issues and what was the
> cause/solution?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Charlie Nelson
> Water Phantom
> 1995 C 36 XL/kcb
>
>
> cenel...@aol.com
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

Potentially, only somewhat related...
I had a problem with the Racor 220 (different type filter). It leaked fuel, not 
air. The source of the leak was the plunger in the pump on top of the housing. 
Eventually I replaced it with a SNAPP. Much easier to maintain (and it comes 
cheaper). No more leaks (and no more smell!).

Marek
1994 C270 “Legato” (Perkins M20)
Ottawa, ON

From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, June 25, 2017 23:33
To: C List
Cc: Josh Muckley
Subject: Re: Stus-List Air in fuel line

I have never had much luck with the Racor 200FG which is the smaller 
predecessor of the 500.  I've completely rebuilt mine with all new o-rings and 
I always vent it thoroughly but still manage to accumulate air.  My first 
question is why you didn't put the fuel pumps as close to the tank physically 
and hydraulicly as possible, ie: upstream of the racor?  This would ensure that 
air was constantly being pushed out of any leaking seals by pressurized fuel.  
Your air leaks would then become fuel leaks and be both manageable and easier 
to identify.  It is also unlikely that leaking fuel would cause the engine to 
shutdown.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD




On Jun 25, 2017 8:32 PM, "Charlie Nelson via CnC-List"  
wrote:

My Beta 28 fuel system has recently developed a penchant for sucking air into 
the system somewhere upstream of my electric fuel pumps. (I have 2 installed in 
parallel so that I can switch between them if one dies or get clogged, etc.)

These pumps are downstream of my Racor 500 30 micron fuel filter/water 
separator. The input to the separator goes directly to the pickup tube assembly 
on the top of my fuel tank via a diesel fuel hose secured with 
hose-clamps--recently installed. (I motored at flank speed  for about 8 hours 
after the installation without any issues). The tank pickup tube assembly looks 
identical to a Moeller Fuel pick-up tube which mounts to the tank top and has 
nylon tube which goes straight down into the tank about 12 inches.

Something is allowing air to get in since my engine will stall frequently but 
randomly. On the first occurrence, I changed both the engine and the Racor 
filter.

When it happened again within an hour of the filter change, I opened the system 
at the input to the engine filter and found either frothy fuel (lots of bubbles 
in it) or just an empty hose. Since the filters had just been changed, I 
figured it had to be a vacuum leak. (I was able to pump fuel into the line and 
get the engine started again each time it happened--over the course of a full 
day of motoring I would guess that it happened on average every 1/2 hour).

I tightened all the clamps and the Racor seal as much as I dared and this did 
not prevent the stalls.

My mechanic is as mystified as I am but will likely check-out/replace both the 
Racor entirely and the fuel-pick-up tube. The pick-up tube is original which 
makes it about 22 years old.

My thoughts are the Racor filter or vacuum gauge seals are bad/scored or just 
not seated properly OR the pickup tube assembly is leaking at the tank seal or 
the nylon tube itself has developed small holes or cracks that allow air to 
enter, especially with my fuel pump sucking fuel more efficiently than was 
possible with the mechanical pump on the engine (since bypassed).

My questions to the list are--am I missing something else that could cause 
this? Has anyone else had similar vacuum issues and what was the cause/solution?

Thanks,

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
1995 C 36 XL/kcb


cenel...@aol.com

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Stus-List 33 mk2 Mast step loads

[Greg Sutherland via CnC-List]

Does anyone know what the maximum load would be on the mast step of the 33? I'm 
trying to figure out the psi force for a rebuild
Thanks!

Greg
33-2 
Halifax
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Re: Stus-List C 37/40+ holding tank

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

No problem.  Just be careful with the counter top.  The part that wraps
around behind the toilet has a large lever arm and is relatively
unsupported as compared to the rest of the unit.  If too much stress is
applied then stress cracks develop in the GelCoat.  Its tricky to handle
but not impossible.  The absolute hardest part for me was accessing the
connections for the water faucet.

Josh

On Jun 26, 2017 2:08 AM, "Alan Liles via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Thanks, Josh (I think). At least I know, now, what has to come off first.
> It seems like it might take some time.
>
> Al Liles
> SV Elendil
> C 37/40+
> Vancouver
>
>
> On Jun 25, 2017, at 8:21 PM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> You pretty much nailed it.  The shower surround comes first.  Then
> disconnect the water supply and drain hoses.  Remove all the screws
> followed by the counter top.  I'll warn you that the vent is still set far
> back and not easy to access even without the counter top.  You may need to
> make a second access port in one of the cabinets - probably the left most
> cabinet, righthand side.
>
> I had a leaking hand hole in the top of mine.  Then I found out that the
> pickup tube for the pump out had become disconnected and I had to engineer
> a new system.  While I was there I installed a new tank level monitoring
> system.
>
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C 37+
> Solomons, MD
>
>
>
> On Jun 25, 2017 7:32 PM, "Alan Liles via CnC-List" 
> wrote:
>
>> Has anyone on the list had to access their holding tank? My vent is
>> plugged and I need to access at least one end. There is a small access port
>> in the top of one of the vanity cupboards but that seems fairly useless as
>> I can't see much in there and my hands don't really fit. To get to the tank
>> top it looks like the sink and vanity top have to be removed which also
>> involves the shower plexiglass and support. Any ideas before I disassemble
>> my entire head?
>>
>> Al Liles
>> SV Elendil
>> C/40+
>> Vancouver
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
>> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
>> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> wish to make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:
> https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> All Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
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Stus-List Landfall 42 plans/diagrams

[Gary Smith via CnC-List]

Hi All,

Does anyone have original information on the Landfall 42?

I'm looking for something which shows/describes the location and layout of
the Genoa tracks.

The tracks on mine appear to be original but are very far back and very
short - about 8 foot.

Thanks
Gary
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