Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Doran, Michael D]

> "Ruby" may be sexy but "sexy ruby on rails" gets only four hits. As
> for "sexy python," well, no comment.
> 
> T

Also no comment: "perl necklace"

Although see http://necklace.pl/ (and the T-shirt is clever).

-- Michael

> -Original Message-
> From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
> Tim Spalding
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:21 PM
> To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
> 
> "Ruby" may be sexy but "sexy ruby on rails" gets only four hits. As
> for "sexy python," well, no comment.
> 
> T
> 
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Andrew Hankinson
>  wrote:
> > Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes:
> >
> > "sexy ruby" - 72,200
> > "sexy python" - 37,900
> > "sexy php" - 25,100
> > "sexy java" - 16,100
> > "sexy asp" - 14,800
> > "sexy perl" - 8,080
> > "sexy C++" - 177
> > "sexy FORTRAN" - 67
> > "sexy COBOL" - 8
> >
> > I tried "sexy lisp" but the results were skewed by speech impediment
> fetishes. Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you
> can write sexy COBOL.

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Becky Yoose]

"sexy code4lib" - 0 (with quotes); 2,380 (without quotes)

Thanks,
Becky


"sexy librarian" - 73,700... "sexy coder" - 1,950...
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:06 AM, Ross Singer  wrote:

> "sexy groovy" - 43,200
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Andrew Hankinson
>  wrote:
> > Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes:
> >
> > "sexy ruby" - 72,200
> > "sexy python" - 37,900
> > "sexy php" - 25,100
> > "sexy java" - 16,100
> > "sexy asp" - 14,800
> > "sexy perl" - 8,080
> > "sexy C++" - 177
> > "sexy FORTRAN" - 67
> > "sexy COBOL" - 8
> >
> > I tried "sexy lisp" but the results were skewed by speech impediment
> fetishes. Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you can
> write sexy COBOL.
> >
> > On 2010-03-25, at 10:20 PM, Tim Spalding wrote:
> >
> >>> Finally, I never would have put the strings "PHP" and "sexiness" in a
> sentence together (though I guess I just did).
> >>
> >> A simple Google search shows how very wrong you are:
> >>
> >> "sexy php" - 56,100,000 results
> >> "sexy asp" - 8,380,000
> >> "sexy java" - 6,360,000
> >> "sexy ruby" - 2,840,000
> >> "sexy perl" - 532,000
> >> "sexy C++" - 488,000
> >> "sexy smalltalk" - 113,000
> >> "sexy fortran" - 107,000
> >> "sexy COBOL" - 58,100
> >>
> >> There are also very high results for "sexy logo." Perhaps, since I was
> >> in fourth grade, someone's figured out something interesting to do
> >> with that stupid turtle!
> >>
> >> Tim
> >
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Ross Singer]

"sexy groovy" - 43,200

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Andrew Hankinson
 wrote:
> Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes:
>
> "sexy ruby" - 72,200
> "sexy python" - 37,900
> "sexy php" - 25,100
> "sexy java" - 16,100
> "sexy asp" - 14,800
> "sexy perl" - 8,080
> "sexy C++" - 177
> "sexy FORTRAN" - 67
> "sexy COBOL" - 8
>
> I tried "sexy lisp" but the results were skewed by speech impediment 
> fetishes. Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you can 
> write sexy COBOL.
>
> On 2010-03-25, at 10:20 PM, Tim Spalding wrote:
>
>>> Finally, I never would have put the strings "PHP" and "sexiness" in a 
>>> sentence together (though I guess I just did).
>>
>> A simple Google search shows how very wrong you are:
>>
>> "sexy php" - 56,100,000 results
>> "sexy asp" - 8,380,000
>> "sexy java" - 6,360,000
>> "sexy ruby" - 2,840,000
>> "sexy perl" - 532,000
>> "sexy C++" - 488,000
>> "sexy smalltalk" - 113,000
>> "sexy fortran" - 107,000
>> "sexy COBOL" - 58,100
>>
>> There are also very high results for "sexy logo." Perhaps, since I was
>> in fourth grade, someone's figured out something interesting to do
>> with that stupid turtle!
>>
>> Tim
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Patrick Hochstenbach]

Nothing beats "E"- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E_%28programming_language%29

"sexy e" - 924,000 hits

But oh poor Erlang

"sexy erlang" - 2 hits (both of them telling me: erlang isn't sexy)


P@

-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries on behalf of Tim Spalding
Sent: Fri 26-3-2010 4:21
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie
 
"Ruby" may be sexy but "sexy ruby on rails" gets only four hits. As
for "sexy python," well, no comment.

T

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Andrew Hankinson
 wrote:
> Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes:
>
> "sexy ruby" - 72,200
> "sexy python" - 37,900
> "sexy php" - 25,100
> "sexy java" - 16,100
> "sexy asp" - 14,800
> "sexy perl" - 8,080
> "sexy C++" - 177
> "sexy FORTRAN" - 67
> "sexy COBOL" - 8
>
> I tried "sexy lisp" but the results were skewed by speech impediment 
> fetishes. Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you can 
> write sexy COBOL.

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Tim Spalding]

"Ruby" may be sexy but "sexy ruby on rails" gets only four hits. As
for "sexy python," well, no comment.

T

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:36 PM, Andrew Hankinson
 wrote:
> Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes:
>
> "sexy ruby" - 72,200
> "sexy python" - 37,900
> "sexy php" - 25,100
> "sexy java" - 16,100
> "sexy asp" - 14,800
> "sexy perl" - 8,080
> "sexy C++" - 177
> "sexy FORTRAN" - 67
> "sexy COBOL" - 8
>
> I tried "sexy lisp" but the results were skewed by speech impediment 
> fetishes. Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you can 
> write sexy COBOL.

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Andrew Hankinson]

Just out of curiosity I tried them in quotes:

"sexy ruby" - 72,200
"sexy python" - 37,900
"sexy php" - 25,100
"sexy java" - 16,100
"sexy asp" - 14,800
"sexy perl" - 8,080
"sexy C++" - 177
"sexy FORTRAN" - 67
"sexy COBOL" - 8

I tried "sexy lisp" but the results were skewed by speech impediment fetishes. 
Which I'd say is even less strange than 8 people thinking you can write sexy 
COBOL.

On 2010-03-25, at 10:20 PM, Tim Spalding wrote:

>> Finally, I never would have put the strings "PHP" and "sexiness" in a 
>> sentence together (though I guess I just did).
> 
> A simple Google search shows how very wrong you are:
> 
> "sexy php" - 56,100,000 results
> "sexy asp" - 8,380,000
> "sexy java" - 6,360,000
> "sexy ruby" - 2,840,000
> "sexy perl" - 532,000
> "sexy C++" - 488,000
> "sexy smalltalk" - 113,000
> "sexy fortran" - 107,000
> "sexy COBOL" - 58,100
> 
> There are also very high results for "sexy logo." Perhaps, since I was
> in fourth grade, someone's figured out something interesting to do
> with that stupid turtle!
> 
> Tim

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Tim Spalding]

> Finally, I never would have put the strings "PHP" and "sexiness" in a 
> sentence together (though I guess I just did).

A simple Google search shows how very wrong you are:

"sexy php" - 56,100,000 results
"sexy asp" - 8,380,000
"sexy java" - 6,360,000
"sexy ruby" - 2,840,000
"sexy perl" - 532,000
"sexy C++" - 488,000
"sexy smalltalk" - 113,000
"sexy fortran" - 107,000
"sexy COBOL" - 58,100

There are also very high results for "sexy logo." Perhaps, since I was
in fourth grade, someone's figured out something interesting to do
with that stupid turtle!

Tim

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Ranti Junus]

Speaking of Regular Expression, O'Reilly Media has an ebook deal of
the day for the Regular Expression Cookbook ($9.99, use code DDREC)
[1]

OK. I don't know if it's OK to post the info like above, but they
advertise that on their Facebook page [2] and I can't resist sharing
the saving.


ranti.

[1] http://oreil.ly/bgvSuD
[2] http://www.facebook.com/OReilly?v=wall


On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:30 PM, Tim Shearer  wrote:
> Warning: regular expressions can become addictive.  And, for some of us
> batch manipulation of large text sets can provide a whole lot of
> satisfaction.  Finally, I never would have put the strings "PHP" and
> "sexiness" in a sentence together (though I guess I just did).
>
> -t


-- 
Bulk mail.  Postage paid.

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Tim Shearer]

Warning: regular expressions can become addictive.  And, for some of us 
batch manipulation of large text sets can provide a whole lot of 
satisfaction.  Finally, I never would have put the strings "PHP" and 
"sexiness" in a sentence together (though I guess I just did).


-t

On 3/25/10 4:46 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote:

If one's interests were digital library data curation and migration, the
most useful things to know would be XSLT, bash scripting, Perl, and
knowledge of regular expressions.  I've done a lot of migration with bash
scripting, regular expressions, and XSLT alone, without the need for Perl,
but Perl or SAX would be useful in migrating non-XML or invalid XML/SGML.  I
used simple, iterative scripts to migrate thousands of TEI files from TEI
Lite to a more consistent schema.  I've done similar things to go from a 500
page HTML thumbnail gallery of manuscripts into an EAD guide.   Roy is right
in stating there is more to programming than web pages.  A lot of dirty work
behind the scenes in libraries is done without the sexiness of PHP or Ruby
on Rails applications.

Ethan

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Genny Engelwrote:


Agreed -- I coded up many nice SQL injection vulnerabilities before I ever
learned PHP.  As for Perl, anyone remember the notorious formmail.cgi from
Matt's Script Archive?

For **web** programming specifically, it's critically important for newbies
to get a grounding in security issues, regardless of the language being
used.  Also, in usability issues, accessibility issues, etc.  for
anything that's actually going to get used by the public.  But really, that
mainly applies if you're going to be developing a whole app complete with
web-accessible front end.

If your interests aren't particularly in web development, you have a whole
other set of potential issues to learn about, and I'm probably ignorant of
most of them.

My first language was C, which according to langpop.com [1] is still the
most popular language around!  If you don't want to get bogged down in the
web security issues, etc., then you might lean toward learning a
general-purpose language like C or Java, rather than one designed for a
specific purpose as PHP is for web development.


[1] http://www.langpop.com/



yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com 03/25/10 07:56AM>>>

On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:

I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
recommend PHP to beginners.

Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
to clean up after them.


Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning
its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid
security holes in web code in general.

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Ethan Gruber]

If one's interests were digital library data curation and migration, the
most useful things to know would be XSLT, bash scripting, Perl, and
knowledge of regular expressions.  I've done a lot of migration with bash
scripting, regular expressions, and XSLT alone, without the need for Perl,
but Perl or SAX would be useful in migrating non-XML or invalid XML/SGML.  I
used simple, iterative scripts to migrate thousands of TEI files from TEI
Lite to a more consistent schema.  I've done similar things to go from a 500
page HTML thumbnail gallery of manuscripts into an EAD guide.   Roy is right
in stating there is more to programming than web pages.  A lot of dirty work
behind the scenes in libraries is done without the sexiness of PHP or Ruby
on Rails applications.

Ethan

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Genny Engel wrote:

> Agreed -- I coded up many nice SQL injection vulnerabilities before I ever
> learned PHP.  As for Perl, anyone remember the notorious formmail.cgi from
> Matt's Script Archive?
>
> For **web** programming specifically, it's critically important for newbies
> to get a grounding in security issues, regardless of the language being
> used.  Also, in usability issues, accessibility issues, etc.  for
> anything that's actually going to get used by the public.  But really, that
> mainly applies if you're going to be developing a whole app complete with
> web-accessible front end.
>
> If your interests aren't particularly in web development, you have a whole
> other set of potential issues to learn about, and I'm probably ignorant of
> most of them.
>
> My first language was C, which according to langpop.com [1] is still the
> most popular language around!  If you don't want to get bogged down in the
> web security issues, etc., then you might lean toward learning a
> general-purpose language like C or Java, rather than one designed for a
> specific purpose as PHP is for web development.
>
>
> [1] http://www.langpop.com/
>
>
> >>> yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com 03/25/10 07:56AM >>>
> On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:
> > I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
> > recommend PHP to beginners.
> >
> > Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
> > incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
> > to clean up after them.
>
> Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning
> its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid
> security holes in web code in general.
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Genny Engel]

Agreed -- I coded up many nice SQL injection vulnerabilities before I ever 
learned PHP.  As for Perl, anyone remember the notorious formmail.cgi from 
Matt's Script Archive?
 
For **web** programming specifically, it's critically important for newbies to 
get a grounding in security issues, regardless of the language being used.  
Also, in usability issues, accessibility issues, etc.  for anything that's 
actually going to get used by the public.  But really, that mainly applies if 
you're going to be developing a whole app complete with web-accessible front 
end.
 
If your interests aren't particularly in web development, you have a whole 
other set of potential issues to learn about, and I'm probably ignorant of most 
of them.  
 
My first language was C, which according to langpop.com [1] is still the most 
popular language around!  If you don't want to get bogged down in the web 
security issues, etc., then you might lean toward learning a general-purpose 
language like C or Java, rather than one designed for a specific purpose as PHP 
is for web development.
  
 
[1] http://www.langpop.com/
 

>>> yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com 03/25/10 07:56AM >>>
On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:
> I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
> recommend PHP to beginners.
>
> Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
> incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
> to clean up after them.

Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning 
its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid 
security holes in web code in general.

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Walker, David]

Google code has project feeds in Atom, too.

--Dave

==
David Walker
Library Web Services Manager
California State University
http://xerxes.calstate.edu

From: Code for Libraries [code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of Aaron 
Rubinstein [arubi...@library.umass.edu]
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2010 10:21 AM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

On 3/25/2010 12:47 PM, Ross Singer wrote:

> I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with
> running our own code repository.  There are too many good code hosting
> solutions out there for this to be justifiable.  We used to run an SVN
> repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our
> server got hacked.
>
> Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better
> solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc.  What would be useful,
> though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across
> these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc.
> or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their
> gists).
>
> I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one
> would go about it.
>
> -Ross.

I think the old discussion was looking more for a way to host code
snippets as opposed to version controlled projects, which I agree that
GitHub and the like already do nicely.  Would we really need more than a
code4lib.pastebin.com?  That being said, a code planet would be really
cool.  I know that GitHub and BitBucket publish ATOM feeds of a user's
activity but I'm not so sure about other code hosting sites.

Anyways, just a thought...

Aaron

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Aaron Rubinstein]

On 3/25/2010 12:47 PM, Ross Singer wrote:


I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with
running our own code repository.  There are too many good code hosting
solutions out there for this to be justifiable.  We used to run an SVN
repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our
server got hacked.

Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better
solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc.  What would be useful,
though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across
these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc.
or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their
gists).

I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one
would go about it.

-Ross.


I think the old discussion was looking more for a way to host code 
snippets as opposed to version controlled projects, which I agree that 
GitHub and the like already do nicely.  Would we really need more than a 
code4lib.pastebin.com?  That being said, a code planet would be really 
cool.  I know that GitHub and BitBucket publish ATOM feeds of a user's 
activity but I'm not so sure about other code hosting sites.


Anyways, just a thought...

Aaron

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Mike Taylor]

Newbie programmers (and established ones still looking to improve)
might be interested in this blog article that I wrote a few days ago
about some of the best programmers I've had the privilege of working
with:

http://reprog.wordpress.com/2010/03/21/the-hacker-the-architect-and-the-superhero-three-completely-different-ways-to-be-an-excellent-programmer/
Enjoy!


On 25 March 2010 16:47, Ross Singer  wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Aaron Rubinstein
>  wrote:
>
>> This is some of the best advice.  Reading and adapting good code has been my
>> favorite way to learn.  There was a discussion a couple years back on a
>> code4lib code repository of some kind[1].  I'd love to resurrect this idea.
>>  A private pastebin[2] might be a decent option.  I also know that a number
>> of us use GitHub[3], which allows for collecting syntax highlighted code
>> snippets and has some nifty social networking features that let you follow
>> other coders and projects.  GitHub is certainly not a solution for a
>> code4lib repository but is another way to share code and learn from each
>> other.
>>
> I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with
> running our own code repository.  There are too many good code hosting
> solutions out there for this to be justifiable.  We used to run an SVN
> repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our
> server got hacked.
>
> Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better
> solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc.  What would be useful,
> though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across
> these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc.
> or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their
> gists).
>
> I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one
> would go about it.
>
> -Ross.
>
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Ross Singer]

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Aaron Rubinstein
 wrote:

> This is some of the best advice.  Reading and adapting good code has been my
> favorite way to learn.  There was a discussion a couple years back on a
> code4lib code repository of some kind[1].  I'd love to resurrect this idea.
>  A private pastebin[2] might be a decent option.  I also know that a number
> of us use GitHub[3], which allows for collecting syntax highlighted code
> snippets and has some nifty social networking features that let you follow
> other coders and projects.  GitHub is certainly not a solution for a
> code4lib repository but is another way to share code and learn from each
> other.
>
I disagreed with this back in the day, and I still disagree with
running our own code repository.  There are too many good code hosting
solutions out there for this to be justifiable.  We used to run an SVN
repo at code4lib.org, but we never bothered rebuilding it after our
server got hacked.

Actually I think GitHub/Google Code and their ilk are a much better
solution -- especially for pastebins/gists/etc.  What would be useful,
though, is an aggregation of the Code4lib's community spread across
these sites, sort of what like the Planet does for blog postings, etc.
or what Google Buzz does for the people I follow (i.e. I see their
gists).

I'd buy in to that (and help support it), but I'm not sure how one
would go about it.

-Ross.

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Aaron Rubinstein]

On 3/24/2010 4:47 PM, Kyle Banerjee wrote:


Just so I can use some of my favorite technical jargon, you need to find a
"reference implementation." That's a fancy way of saying, find the simplest
example you can. Then just copy and tweak the code until you grok
it. There's an infinite amount to learn, so just take on things one at a
time.


This is some of the best advice.  Reading and adapting good code has 
been my favorite way to learn.  There was a discussion a couple years 
back on a code4lib code repository of some kind[1].  I'd love to 
resurrect this idea.  A private pastebin[2] might be a decent option.  I 
also know that a number of us use GitHub[3], which allows for collecting 
syntax highlighted code snippets and has some nifty social networking 
features that let you follow other coders and projects.  GitHub is 
certainly not a solution for a code4lib repository but is another way to 
share code and learn from each other.


I'm happy to help in any way to push this forward.

Aaron


[1] 
https://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0803&L=CODE4LIB&D=0&X=09B7A8434FAC4C7567&P=163887


[2] http://pastebin.com/help

[3] http://github.com

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Joe Hourcle]

On Thu, 25 Mar 2010, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:


On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:

I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
recommend PHP to beginners.

Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
to clean up after them.


Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its 
vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid security holes 
in web code in general.


Unfortunately, it's not all web code.  Part of the issue is in selecting 
the correct tool for the job.


Case in point --

I've been working for the last year to integrate a new data system into 
our federation.  The system officially hasn't gone live yet, so as the 
institution building the system had replaced their full time DBA with a 
contractor, the contractor decided he was going to replace all of the work 
that the DBA had already done to enable external sites to subscribe to 
collections within the system.


Unfortunately, he did the entire thing in shell, and he's passing around
SQL scripts, applying them to the database without any validation, and 
he's hard-coded assumptions about how directories are laid out and where 
the script has permissions to write.


Needless to say, when you get someone reading stuff from config files with 
*no* taint checking and *no* escaping or even quoting of arguments passed 
to other commands, I have to clean it up.  I even try passing my changes 
back upstream, but I'm told that the contractor has to make the changes 
(and he then picks and chooses which security changes he's going to make 
... then decides to wrap each 'rm' and dozen other commands in functions 
(so I can override what command's being called?), and I now have a shell 
script that's over 1000 lines.  (okay, that's not fair ... his version is 
only 968 lines, it only gets over 1000 when I try to add my corrections to 
it, and it's only 702 lines when you strip out comments and blank lines)


Now, much of it's just plain bad programming -- I mean, would you test to 
see if variables were set BEFORE loading the config file?   Would you run 
through a series of functions where each one required the other one to 
complete without actually testing to see if any of them actually worked?


(and well, one of those functions was the one that removed a tarball that 
took an hour to generate at the server, and the next one report back the 
'success' to the server, so I couldn't get the server to run it again 
without getting someone to correct things manually)


... I probably wouldn't be so hot on the topic, if it hadn't occupied the 
better part of the last month of my life, and all of this last week. 
(well, it seems that scp'ing a file for the subscription manager to 
service to process, and create a tarball response with the contents for 
your database doesn't work too well when the service isn't actually 
running ... but the way it's written you have *no* idea what the status of 
the server is).


...

sorry, I just needed to vent.

Anyway, part of what makes a good programmer is knowing the correct tools 
to use.  (and unfortunately, by definition, any newbie isn't going to have 
enough languages in their toolbox to be able to make a good selection). 
Yes, we always have to deal with determining the 'best' language based on 
what we know, who's going to maintain it, etc, so we sometimes have to go 
with sub-optimal choices.


But much of it's trying to identify what's going to go wrong with what we 
build, and trying to make sure that it doesn't break in spectacularly bad 
ways.[1]  I guess most people don't have the men with guns show up and 
take your servers for forensic analysis when some types of things go 
wrong, which makes me a little more paranoid in my error handling.


But if you put it out there on the internet, someone, sooner or later will 
attempt to abuse it.  It could be link spam on blogs, or usurping a guest 
book program to send spam, or even people claiming that compression 
artifacts in your data are UFOs[2], resulting in DDoS of your servers.
The bad ones are where they find a way to modify your database, add 
something to your filesystem, or give them a shell on your system.



-Joe

[1] http://xkcd.com/327/
[2] http://www.google.com/search?q=disclosure+nasa+sun+2010

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Benjamin Young]

He means JavaScript. ;)

Honestly, though, PHP and all it's fault not withstanding, I highly 
recommend starting with a C syntax-based language such as JavaScript, 
PHP, Java, or even C# (and obviously C and C++). Get some basic 
programming concepts understood, and then pursue the language the fits 
the bill for the task you're trying to solve.


Most languages share some similarities, so moving between them gets 
easier as you go a long. Starting with a C syntax-based language will 
put you in good stead for learning several more (the list above is by no 
means exhaustive).


If you want to check out some language usage statistics, I recommend 
these two sites:

http://www.tiobe.com/index.php/content/paperinfo/tpci/index.html
http://langpop.com/

And do join the #code4lib IRC channel. It's enjoyable regardless of the 
language you pick. :)


On 3/25/10 11:36 AM, Gabriel Farrell wrote:

You should /join #code4lib. Only there will you learn the secret one
true path to wisdom.

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Matthew Bachtell
  wrote:
   

As someone who uses PHP to do the small things I would recommend using
Python or another language.  I am trying to transition away from PHP to
Python as it is not a panacea.  PHP's great for web scripting but was never
intended to do all of the duct taped projects that I have put together with
it.



On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Yitzchak Schaffer<
yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com>  wrote:

 

On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:

   

I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
recommend PHP to beginners.

Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
to clean up after them.

 

Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its
vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid security holes
in web code in general.

--
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org

Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu

   
 

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Gabriel Farrell]

You should /join #code4lib. Only there will you learn the secret one
true path to wisdom.

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Matthew Bachtell
 wrote:
> As someone who uses PHP to do the small things I would recommend using
> Python or another language.  I am trying to transition away from PHP to
> Python as it is not a panacea.  PHP's great for web scripting but was never
> intended to do all of the duct taped projects that I have put together with
> it.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Yitzchak Schaffer <
> yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:
>>
>>> I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
>>> recommend PHP to beginners.
>>>
>>> Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
>>> incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
>>> to clean up after them.
>>>
>>
>> Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its
>> vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid security holes
>> in web code in general.
>>
>> --
>> Yitzchak Schaffer
>> Systems Manager
>> Touro College Libraries
>> 33 West 23rd Street
>> New York, NY 10010
>> Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
>> Fax (212) 627-3197
>> Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org
>>
>> Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu
>>
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Matthew Bachtell]

As someone who uses PHP to do the small things I would recommend using
Python or another language.  I am trying to transition away from PHP to
Python as it is not a panacea.  PHP's great for web scripting but was never
intended to do all of the duct taped projects that I have put together with
it.



On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 10:56 AM, Yitzchak Schaffer <
yitzchak.schaf...@gmx.com> wrote:

> On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:
>
>> I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
>> recommend PHP to beginners.
>>
>> Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
>> incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
>> to clean up after them.
>>
>
> Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning its
> vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid security holes
> in web code in general.
>
> --
> Yitzchak Schaffer
> Systems Manager
> Touro College Libraries
> 33 West 23rd Street
> New York, NY 10010
> Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
> Fax (212) 627-3197
> Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org
>
> Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Yitzchak Schaffer]

On 3/24/2010 17:43, Joe Hourcle wrote:

I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
recommend PHP to beginners.

Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many
incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
to clean up after them.


Another way of looking at this: part of learning a language is learning 
its vulnerabilities and how to deal with them.  And how to avoid 
security holes in web code in general.


--
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org

Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Yitzchak Schaffer]

On 3/25/2010 10:24, Brian Stamper wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:51:38 -0400, Mark Tomko 
wrote:


I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your
goal is to have a general purpose programming language at your
disposal. PHP is a fine language for building dynamic web pages, but
it won't help you to slice and dice a big text file or process a bunch
of XML or do some other "odd job" that you don't want to do by hand.



To be precise, PHP can indeed do these kind of things, particularly in
command line mode. I certainly don't recommend it, but if you're used to
PHP for other reasons, and you already have it available to you, you can
do 'odd jobs' with PHP. You can also use your teeth to open a tight
bottle cap, the edge of a knife as a screwdriver, and duct tape to
perform auto repairs.


++

Especially if you're doing or thinking of doing things in the general 
web arena, PHP is widely used, well-supported by a variety of 
open-source libraries/frameworks/other projects, and webhosts.  It can 
probably do X, though something else might do it better.  That's why I 
adopted PHP: overall success.


See also http://i.imgur.com/pG3q7.jpg

--
Yitzchak Schaffer
Systems Manager
Touro College Libraries
33 West 23rd Street
New York, NY 10010
Tel (212) 463-0400 x5230
Fax (212) 627-3197
Email yitzchak.schaf...@tourolib.org

Access Problems? Contact systems.libr...@touro.edu

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Shirley Lincicum]

If you don't have access to Safari or books 24x7 through other means
(e.g. work, affiliation with a public or academic library), you can
get access to a decent collection of current programming ebooks by
joining ACM, see http://pd.acm.org/ for details. A Professional
membership is $99 annually. Though I haven't tried them yet myself,
Professional membership also provides access to online courses in
programming and related topics.

Shirley

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 6:19 AM, Jon Gorman  wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:24 PM, jenny  wrote:
>> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
>> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
>> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
>> would be extremely appreciated
>
>
> Hi Jenny,
>
> You've gotten lots of good advice and debate about programming
> languages but my advice is going to be a little bit on a different
> track.
>
> First, in general I'd re-empathize what some other folks have said.
> Projects are great way to learn a language, although i find a "intro
> to x language" also useful to work through at the very beginning of a
> language.  I have found that classes are useful for me mainly because
> they give me deadlines and I usually try to go above and beyond the
> call of duty as far as classes go. It's not so much I'm learning from
> the lectures as it provides a structure for me to learn from and
> deadlines to work toward.  The standards for many classes though are
> lower than the standards I set for myself so I tend to do overkill for
> actual assignments.
>
> So community college classes might be useful for that purpose.  I'd
> also say some really good courses in software design and engineering
> can be really good, but it's hard to find good courses in those from
> what I can tell.  Some signs of a good course: frequent group
> projects, long-term projects, design being taught, a versioning and
> feature/bug tracking framework setup for students and students are
> expected to use it, professor does code reviews.
>
> Mostly, lots of reading and lots of coding.  Look around for tutorials
> on the web that go beyond "hello world".  Safari can be really good
> here, and 24x7 isn't bad.  If you can get someone else to pay for it
> or use an institutional account that would be good.  Choose some books
> on your programming language.  Also read some non-programming language
> specific books like The Pragmatic Programmer, Peopleware, and the
> Mythical Man-month.  (The latter two are older but still some of the
> best non-technical/management type books I've read).
>
> Find a programming environment that's comfortable for you and also try
> out some different operating systems and interfaces.  You could start
> easy and start looking into various "Live CD" distributions.  That way
> you can burn a cd or dvd with a new operating system and boot from it
> and poke around.  Another thing you might want to investigate is using
> Virtual Machines.  I have to confess that I haven't used virtual
> machines in my home environment much, but I suspect it would be
> really, really useful for learning.  That way you can set up a
> "virtual server" and install things like databases or web servers
> without worrying about mucking up your own system.  There is some
> (Indeed, had you asked this question six to eight years ago, I'd say
> make sure you have a setup where you can mess up your machine but
> recover).   Hopefully after trying different operating systems, text
> editors, IDEs, version control systems, etc you find tools you really
> like.  (Oh yeah, try to start learning some version control tools
> too...they're life-savers).
>
> Jon Gorman
>
> I
>
>
>
>>
>> JC
>>
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Brian Stamper]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:51:38 -0400, Mark Tomko   
wrote:


I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your  
goal is to have a general purpose programming language at your  
disposal.  PHP is a fine language for building dynamic web pages, but it  
won't help you to slice and dice a big text file or process a bunch of  
XML or do some other "odd job" that you don't want to do by hand.




To be precise, PHP can indeed do these kind of things, particularly in  
command line mode. I certainly don't recommend it, but if you're used to  
PHP for other reasons, and you already have it available to you, you can  
do 'odd jobs' with PHP. You can also use your teeth to open a tight bottle  
cap, the edge of a knife as a screwdriver, and duct tape to perform auto  
repairs.


Brian

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Jon Gorman]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:24 PM, jenny  wrote:
> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> would be extremely appreciated


Hi Jenny,

You've gotten lots of good advice and debate about programming
languages but my advice is going to be a little bit on a different
track.

First, in general I'd re-empathize what some other folks have said.
Projects are great way to learn a language, although i find a "intro
to x language" also useful to work through at the very beginning of a
language.  I have found that classes are useful for me mainly because
they give me deadlines and I usually try to go above and beyond the
call of duty as far as classes go. It's not so much I'm learning from
the lectures as it provides a structure for me to learn from and
deadlines to work toward.  The standards for many classes though are
lower than the standards I set for myself so I tend to do overkill for
actual assignments.

So community college classes might be useful for that purpose.  I'd
also say some really good courses in software design and engineering
can be really good, but it's hard to find good courses in those from
what I can tell.  Some signs of a good course: frequent group
projects, long-term projects, design being taught, a versioning and
feature/bug tracking framework setup for students and students are
expected to use it, professor does code reviews.

Mostly, lots of reading and lots of coding.  Look around for tutorials
on the web that go beyond "hello world".  Safari can be really good
here, and 24x7 isn't bad.  If you can get someone else to pay for it
or use an institutional account that would be good.  Choose some books
on your programming language.  Also read some non-programming language
specific books like The Pragmatic Programmer, Peopleware, and the
Mythical Man-month.  (The latter two are older but still some of the
best non-technical/management type books I've read).

Find a programming environment that's comfortable for you and also try
out some different operating systems and interfaces.  You could start
easy and start looking into various "Live CD" distributions.  That way
you can burn a cd or dvd with a new operating system and boot from it
and poke around.  Another thing you might want to investigate is using
Virtual Machines.  I have to confess that I haven't used virtual
machines in my home environment much, but I suspect it would be
really, really useful for learning.  That way you can set up a
"virtual server" and install things like databases or web servers
without worrying about mucking up your own system.  There is some
(Indeed, had you asked this question six to eight years ago, I'd say
make sure you have a setup where you can mess up your machine but
recover).   Hopefully after trying different operating systems, text
editors, IDEs, version control systems, etc you find tools you really
like.  (Oh yeah, try to start learning some version control tools
too...they're life-savers).

Jon Gorman

I



>
> JC
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Richard, Joel M]

I'll strongly agree with Roy on this one. Yesterday a coworker came to me 
asking text editors. I said, "For what do you need a good text editor?" Turns 
out she couldn't open a file in Notepad It was 3.6 GB in size (which you 
wouldn't want to open anyway) In the end, all we needed to do was a clever grep 
against the file to extract some specific data. And that's just a simple 
example.

So yes, sooner or later you'll find yourself needing a flexible programming 
language to solve a problem. Had our searching been more than a simple series 
of greps, I would have jumped into Perl to accomplish the task, but I'm sure 
other languages would work just as well.

--Joel


Joel Richard
IT Specialist, Web Services Department
Smithsonian Institution Libraries | http://www.sil.si.edu/
(202) 633-1706 | (202) 786-2861 (f) | richar...@si.edu




From: Roy Tennant 
Reply-To: Code for Libraries 
Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:57:23 -0400
To: 
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

On Mar 24, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Tim  wrote:
>
> Largest website in Perl: Del.icio.us
>
> Largest website in PHP: Facebook

You're assuming the only use for a programming language is to
dynamically serve up a web site. That would be a serious mistake.
Roy

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Eric Celeste]

>
> To offer a counterpoint to no PHP folks, One reason I like PHP is because

right now its pretty much essential to know if you are using open source web

applications like MediaWiki, Wordpress or Drupal. I feel like Javascript is

also a must for web work.


Agreed. I actually hated both PHP and JavaScript, but found I had to know
them. I've become more of a fan of JavaScript, even though it is an odd
beast. It is just so accessible and (carefully deployed) powerful that it is
hard to resist. A kind of Dennis the Menace of the web.

PHP is another story. I do need it for just those apps Karen describes. When
I want to dig in I need PHP. But I still hate PHP. The online documentation
is great, but it really _needs_ this documentation since it seems every
function uses a slightly different parameter order or return type and you
never know what to expect without looking it up. Unfortunately, this loose
ethic has infected code written with PHP so that Drupal and WordPress both
suffer the same problems.

Yes, if you are going to dig into existing apps you may need PHP. That's why
it is good to know what problems you need to solve _before_ committing to
your language. The code already written is part of the _community_ of the
language. You will do better if you can speak the language of the community.
But if you do not have to learn PHP, I would not make it a starting point.
It is just too scattered to be fun, at least for me. I would never use PHP
to teach programming, though I might use JavaScript or Ruby with new or
returning programmers.


> I keep toying with Ruby on Rails and getting about 1/3 of the way into the
> book I have before getting completely sidetracked by another project.


I had this same problem for a few years. Part of the turn-off for me was the
very "insiderness" of the Ruby crowd. Rails, especially, forces a way of
thinking on you, a "religion" as I often term it. Many languages do this,
but I found many of the books assumed you were ready to adopt the religion,
and I was not.

I finally broke through this barrier with the help of "Learning Rails" from
O'Reilly press. The authors of this book are explicitly skeptical of some of
the Rails religion, and make it clear when they are following "the way" and
when they wander afield a bit. I found this welcoming and very helpful for
arriving at Rails with my own set of questions and assumptions.

I don't think Rails is magical or a solution to all (or even most) problems.
But I do think it is a great deal of fun and a very efficient and effective
framework for database-backed web apps. Especially if you have found
yourself enjoying SmallTalk, Model-View-Controller, Cocoa programming, or
the like, you might find a comfortable home and community in Ruby on Rails
once you break through the crusty religious barrier.

...Eric

Eric Celeste / e...@clst.org / http://eric.clst.org / 651-323-2009

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Karen Coombs]

To offer a counterpoint to no PHP folks, One reason I like PHP is because
right now its pretty much essential to know if you are using open source web
applications like MediaWiki, Wordpress or Drupal. I feel like Javascript is
also a must for web work. Personally, I'm also a fan of XSLT to do
transformation if I have XML to work with.

As others have pointed out though, programming is web-centric. So IMHO it
really depends on what your needs are and where you want to go. Others can
offer better advice about non-web work. I keep toying with Ruby on Rails and
getting about 1/3 of the way into the book I have before getting completely
sidetracked by another project.

Karen

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Roy Tennant  wrote:

> On Mar 24, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Tim  wrote:
>
>>
>> Largest website in Perl: Del.icio.us
>>
>> Largest website in PHP: Facebook
>>
>
> You're assuming the only use for a programming language is to dynamically
> serve up a web site. That would be a serious mistake.
> Roy
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Roy Tennant]

On Mar 24, 2010, at 7:17 PM, Tim  wrote:


Largest website in Perl: Del.icio.us

Largest website in PHP: Facebook


You're assuming the only use for a programming language is to  
dynamically serve up a web site. That would be a serious mistake.

Roy

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Andrew Hankinson]

On 24-Mar-10, at 8:21 PM, Paul Cummins wrote:


On 3/24/2010 7:43 PM, David Kane wrote:
A friend of mine once described PHP as 'brain-dead PERL', but I  
like and use

both languages quite a bit.

David.

On 24 March 2010 23:17, Tim Spalding  wrote:


PHP. I have to agree with others - don't bother with PHP.


Largest website in Perl: Del.icio.us

Largest website in PHP: Facebook

Tim







Ok, I know there are people that use PHP out there.  :)

 I'd recommend PHP, especially to a beginner, but only if they are  
going to learn the whole LAMP system and how to make it work. Oh,  
and learn the changes between versions, like between 5.1 and 5.2.  
And read every comment on their manual pages.
And never install a widely distributed PHP program unless you rename  
it(scanners know all the famous ones).  We use the PHP CLI as a  
replacement for perl and for processing XML and a thousand other  
things without even going through Apache.
 But above all, if you do learn it and use it for years, don't tell  
the programmers in an email list that you did.


-Paul


You could always claim that you write Python instead:


import os
os.system('/usr/local/bin/php utility.php')

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Paul Cummins]

On 3/24/2010 7:43 PM, David Kane wrote:

A friend of mine once described PHP as 'brain-dead PERL', but I like and use
both languages quite a bit.

David.

On 24 March 2010 23:17, Tim Spalding  wrote:


PHP. I have to agree with others - don't bother with PHP.


Largest website in Perl: Del.icio.us

Largest website in PHP: Facebook

Tim







 Ok, I know there are people that use PHP out there.  :)

  I'd recommend PHP, especially to a beginner, but only if they are 
going to learn the whole LAMP system and how to make it work. Oh, and 
learn the changes between versions, like between 5.1 and 5.2. And read 
every comment on their manual pages.
 And never install a widely distributed PHP program unless you rename 
it(scanners know all the famous ones).  We use the PHP CLI as a 
replacement for perl and for processing XML and a thousand other things 
without even going through Apache.
  But above all, if you do learn it and use it for years, don't tell 
the programmers in an email list that you did.


-Paul

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[David Kane]

A friend of mine once described PHP as 'brain-dead PERL', but I like and use
both languages quite a bit.

David.

On 24 March 2010 23:17, Tim Spalding  wrote:

> > PHP. I have to agree with others - don't bother with PHP.
>
> Largest website in Perl: Del.icio.us
>
> Largest website in PHP: Facebook
>
> Tim
>



-- 
David Kane
Systems Librarian
Waterford Institute of Technology
Ireland
http://library.wit.ie/
davidfk...@googlewave.com
T: ++353.51302838
M: ++353.876693212

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Tim Spalding]

> PHP. I have to agree with others - don't bother with PHP.

Largest website in Perl: Del.icio.us

Largest website in PHP: Facebook

Tim

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Smith,Devon]

Language choice where there are no decisive external factors - like
business requirements - is tricky. For most programmers, the language we
prefer is nothing more than that - a preference. But new programmers by
definition don't know enough to have a preference.

If you're a free spirit and like expressive power - the ability to say
what you want in the manner you want - Perl may be a good start. It's
true that Perl lets you make just about every mistake a programmer can,
but you can't learn from mistakes you're not allowed to make.

If you're a pedantic authoritarian, then Python may be good start. It
enforces a "right" way to do things and thereby eliminates many of the
mistakes you might have had the opportunity to make in Perl. 

If you've got OCD and like futzing about with a million little pieces,
Java may be a good start. (No, I'm kidding, Java isn't a good start. Nor
is it a good end. But seriously, when learning to program, compiled
languages like Java add unneeded overhead.)

Javascript, on the other hand, may be a very good place to start. It's
an odd language, but the prominence of the browser makes it a compelling
option. Where in Perl the motto is "There's more than one right way to
do it" and in Python it's "There's one right way to do it," you might
say the motto for Javascript is "There's more than one wrong way to do
it." If you choose Javascript, only bother to make things work in one
browser at first. Cross-browser functionality is for the professionally
insane.

Ruby. I don't really know enough about Ruby to say anything about it.

PHP. I have to agree with others - don't bother with PHP.

I found a brief article that goes over a few more esoteric languages
which may be of interest.
http://www.h3rald.com/articles/10-programming-languages/
I'm thinking of looking into Lua, myself.

Devon


-Original Message-
From: Code for Libraries [mailto:code4...@listserv.nd.edu] On Behalf Of
Joe Hourcle
Sent: Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:44 PM
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010, Eric Lease Morgan wrote:

> On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:24 PM, jenny wrote:
>
>> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
>> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
>> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online
courses
>> would be extremely appreciated
>
>
> If you are approaching the problem for the point of view of learning a

> programming language, then then you have outlined pretty good choices.

> At the risk of starting a religious war, I like Perl, but PHP is more 
> popular. Java is pretty good too, but IMHO it doesn't really matter.
In 
> the end you will need to use the best tool for the job.

I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't
recommend 
PHP to beginners.

Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many 
incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had
to 
clean up after them.  Just yesterday, I was helping someone at another 
federal agency clean up after someone got in through a PHP script and 
had turned their site into an ad for cialis.  (but cleverly disguised, 
using their header / footer, and it only showed up when you passed the 
correct query_string to it)

The problem's gotten so bad here, that we've been asked to send our
entire 
web directory on each server to our security office, so that they can
run 
it through some security scanner that looks for problems in PHP code. 
(they relented to my running 'find' on the system for PHP scripts, as we

serve a few dozen TB of data over HTTP)

We're also running intrusion detection software that managed to catch 
someone attempting to exploit refbase (and that was strike #2 against it

... I've never gotten a response to my e-mails to the maintainer, so
we've 
since had to scrap the installs of it that we had).

So, anyway ... don't do PHP.  Even Tim Bray recommended that at ASIS&T's

2009 annual meeting, where he gave the plenary.  (He recommended people 
learn Ruby, instead)

Personally, I do most of my work in Perl, where I can, but I'd recommend

Ruby or Python over someone learning PHP (unless it was to learn enough
to 
migrate code off of PHP).


...

and yes, I know I've stirred this pot before:

 
http://www.mail-archive.com/code4lib@listserv.nd.edu/msg06630.html
 
http://www.mail-archive.com/code4lib@listserv.nd.edu/msg06648.html
...

And if you're using PHP, and can't get away from it, consider using 
something like mod_security to watch for signs of malicious behavior:

http://www.modsecurity.org/

(note -- not an endorsement, I don't use it myself, as they've got 
something installed on the upstream firewall that does it ... which
means 
that someone else sees it happen, and then we have to clean it up, fill 
out paperwork that we've cleaned it up, have meetings about how we're 
going to clean it up (when we already did), etc.)


-Joe

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Dana Pearson]

I've been focusing on XSL and XQuery, but Python's on my list to do
although I want to do a turn in Perl first, very versatile.
Just a javascript background.

regards,
dana

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:24 PM, jenny  wrote:
> A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
> studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
> back into some programming--I took two classes in college
> (VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
> exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
> my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
> neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
> completely on my own (thank goodness).
>
> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> would be extremely appreciated
>
> JC
>



-- 
Dana Pearson
dbpearsonmlis.com

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Eric Lease Morgan]

On Mar 24, 2010, at 4:28 PM, Laura Harris wrote:

>> Just as important as the actual language may be the programming techniques 
>> you will have to learn. Now-a-day knowing how to read and write XML is 
>> almost 
>> imperative. Knowing how to do I/O against a database is all but necessary. 
>> Understanding how to send URL's to remote resources and parsing the results 
>> is common place. Learning how to output your content as an HTTP response is 
>> all too common. All of the languages incorporate extensions for doing such 
>> things.
> 
> As a relative newbie myself, any advice on how/where to pick up these 
> particular things? (Especially everything after the XML.) 


How to pick up these skills? The short, terse answer is practice, but if it 
were up to me, I'd devise a problem and try to solve it. For example, I might 
try to create a rudimentary "discovery" system by:

  1. getting a set of MARC records

  2. designing a flat database schema with
 author, title, subject, note, URL,
 and identifier fields

  3. looping through each of the MARC records
 parsing out the desired content while
 inserting it into the database

  4. installing and configuring Solr

  5. looping through all the records in the database
 pulling out all the fields and sending them
 to Solr for indexing

  6. writing a CGI script with a one-box, one-button
 interface querying Solr and returning the
 results

Such a process includes all of the techniques outlined above. Any programming 
language with its weight in salt has modules, libraries, classes, gems, etc. 
supporting each of these basic functions. The hard part is gluing them together.

Where to get these skills? Eric C. hit the nail on the head when he said "find 
a community". Mailing lists are great. Reference implementations are great. 
Books are good too. Really.

-- 
Eric Morgan

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Mark Tomko]

I wouldn't recommend PHP to learn as a programming language, if your goal is to 
have a general purpose programming language at your disposal.  PHP is a fine 
language for building dynamic web pages, but it won't help you to slice and 
dice a big text file or process a bunch of XML or do some other "odd job" that 
you don't want to do by hand.

Ruby has many devotees.  Perl is great for processing text files, but I 
(personally) would not want to write a large application in Perl (Koha 
notwithstanding).

Python has a really nice syntax and offers good opportunities for exploring 
different programming styles (functional, OO, procedural).  Also, Python's type 
system is neither cumbersome nor anemic.

JavaScript is an interesting suggestion.  With Rhino 
(http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/), you can write whole software applications in 
JavaScript, or harness Java libraries from the comfort of a dynamic language.  
I had a coworker at Amazon (in my former life) who implemented a fairly 
sophisticated tool using JavaScript and Rhino, and a big Java library I'd 
written.  But since it's also implemented in every web browser and so neatly 
interacts with HTML, you're likely to find opportunities to use it if you do 
any web development at all.

I wish I could plug my favorite language, Clojure (http://www.clojure.org/), 
but I'm not certain that it's ready to go out of the box unless you're already 
familiar with at least one of Lisp, Scheme, or Java.  Its other drawback is 
that few people use it (yet), but it has a very lively and helpful development 
community.  Like JavaScript (and Ruby, and Python, if you use JRuby or Jython), 
you can use it seamlessly with Java libraries, or as a standalone language.

Good luck!

Mark

On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:34 PM, Ethan Gruber wrote:

> Hi Jenny,
> 
> What are your professional interests in the library?  You should pick a
> language that is relevant and a useful tool for doing what interests you.
> 
> Ethan
> 
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rosalyn Metz  wrote:
> 
>> Jenny,
>> 
>> I discovered (i think through a code4libber) the other day a great
>> series of videos on learning python.  It was put out by Google as part
>> of a series they do for their employees.
>> 
>> http://code.google.com/edu/languages/
>> 
>> I myself don't know Python (i wish i did), but that section of the
>> page seems the most robust.  That in conjunction with a book might be
>> useful.  And if your partner knows it, all the better.
>> 
>> Also we've had this debate in the past.  Maybe taking a look in the
>> code4lib archives might also be useful.
>> 
>> Rosalyn
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:24 PM, jenny  wrote:
>>> A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
>>> studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
>>> back into some programming--I took two classes in college
>>> (VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
>>> exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
>>> my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
>>> neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
>>> completely on my own (thank goodness).
>>> 
>>> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
>>> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
>>> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
>>> would be extremely appreciated
>>> 
>>> JC
>>> 
>> 

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Joe Hourcle]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2010, Eric Lease Morgan wrote:


On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:24 PM, jenny wrote:


My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
would be extremely appreciated



If you are approaching the problem for the point of view of learning a 
programming language, then then you have outlined pretty good choices. 
At the risk of starting a religious war, I like Perl, but PHP is more 
popular. Java is pretty good too, but IMHO it doesn't really matter. In 
the end you will need to use the best tool for the job.


I know there's a lot of stuff written in it, but *please* don't recommend 
PHP to beginners.


Yes, you can get a lot of stuff done with it, but I've had way too many 
incidents where newbie coders didn't check their inputs, and we've had to 
clean up after them.  Just yesterday, I was helping someone at another 
federal agency clean up after someone got in through a PHP script and 
had turned their site into an ad for cialis.  (but cleverly disguised, 
using their header / footer, and it only showed up when you passed the 
correct query_string to it)


The problem's gotten so bad here, that we've been asked to send our entire 
web directory on each server to our security office, so that they can run 
it through some security scanner that looks for problems in PHP code. 
(they relented to my running 'find' on the system for PHP scripts, as we 
serve a few dozen TB of data over HTTP)


We're also running intrusion detection software that managed to catch 
someone attempting to exploit refbase (and that was strike #2 against it 
... I've never gotten a response to my e-mails to the maintainer, so we've 
since had to scrap the installs of it that we had).


So, anyway ... don't do PHP.  Even Tim Bray recommended that at ASIS&T's 
2009 annual meeting, where he gave the plenary.  (He recommended people 
learn Ruby, instead)


Personally, I do most of my work in Perl, where I can, but I'd recommend 
Ruby or Python over someone learning PHP (unless it was to learn enough to 
migrate code off of PHP).



...

and yes, I know I've stirred this pot before:

http://www.mail-archive.com/code4lib@listserv.nd.edu/msg06630.html
http://www.mail-archive.com/code4lib@listserv.nd.edu/msg06648.html
...

And if you're using PHP, and can't get away from it, consider using 
something like mod_security to watch for signs of malicious behavior:


http://www.modsecurity.org/

(note -- not an endorsement, I don't use it myself, as they've got 
something installed on the upstream firewall that does it ... which means 
that someone else sees it happen, and then we have to clean it up, fill 
out paperwork that we've cleaned it up, have meetings about how we're 
going to clean it up (when we already did), etc.)



-Joe

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Ellen Knowlton Wilson]

Kyle Banerjee wrote:

[snip]

Pick something that you need for a specific project. You already know how

to program, so picking up a language for its own sake will mostly be an
academic exercise for you.


[snip]


My advice would be to work on a project and if it calls for a language that
you don't know, then pick up that. If it calls for something you already
know like PHP, just use that and pick up your new language when you need to
later. In other words, learn what you need. It's dang hard to remember
anything you don't actively use.

kyle





Seconding.

I am not a programmer, but I've been able (by and large) to figure out 
what I need to do when faced with a specific problem. I have never been 
successful at my attempts to learn a language just for the heck of it.


A sample project that jumped to my mind given your interest in rare 
books and book arts would be digital libraries. If I were in your shoes, 
I might look at what's available in that area. I know of Greenstone (not 
because of any experience with it on my own, but because of classmates 
who were using it for their digital libraries class) but I'm sure 
there's a lot more out there.


Here's one of the projects I remember being done: 
http://gslis.simmons.edu/henty/team.htm


And now, back to my regularly scheduled lurking.

Ellen

--
Ellen Knowlton Wilson
Instruction Coordinator
Instructional Technology/Reference Librarian
Room 250, University Library
University of South Alabama
Mobile, AL 36688
6-2826 | (251) 460-7025
ewil...@jaguar1.usouthal.edu

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Thomas Bennett]

Not to start any flame wars, I'll have to agree with Rosalyn on Python. My 
favorite, one reason is the syntax requires readablity, for instance, 
indention is part of the syntax.  And, I am running  Zope/Plone servers (since 
1992) which are written in C and python, and python scripting integrates 
really well by design.  By the way, you will see a lot of Python at Google, 
talking with some of their employees there is a lot of programming done in 
Python for internal and public use for years.  I think the book Dive Into 
Python is available free in electronic format and is highly rated.

  But my conviction has always been, use a language you like because the same 
result can be obtained from the languages you mentioned and others.  The good 
thing is, there are is a lot experience now in these different languages in 
libraries.  

Test the waters, and which ever you choose you may want to first checkout:

 http://showmedo.com 

It started out as just a Python tutorial site but has grown. From their WEB 
page:
"Showmedo is a peer-produced video-tutorials and screencasts site for free and 
open-source software - with the exception of some club videos, the large 
majority are free to watch and download.

Follow our progress building the site with Python, Javascript, Jquery, CSS, 
HTML, Flash, etc.., plus open-source news, advocacy and just plain interesting 
stuff in the FOSS world:"

Beginner Programming241 videos
 
Python  529 videos
Ruby68 videos
Java39 videos
Perl6 videos
Javascript  22 videos
C   29 videos
Django  61 videos
Rubyonrails 39 videos
Turbogears  23 videos
Firefox 16 videos
Eclipse 19 videos
Vim 11 videos
Gimp45 videos
Inkscape21 videos
Blender 51 videos
Linux   189 videos
Openoffice  117 videos
Ubuntu  93 videos
Scribus 31 videos
Wxpython76 videos
Pygame  12 videos
Pyopengl32 videos
Ipython 48 videos
Wingware34 videos


Similar to Ethan's suggestion, are there certain projects that interest you 
already, then what language do they use, Koha, Evergreen, etc..?  


And to be on the cutting edge (maybe), you might want to look at Go.  "No 
major systems language has emerged in over a decade, but over that time the 
computing landscape has changed tremendously ... The Go project was conceived 
to make it easier to write the kind of server and other software Google uses 
internally ... "  See :

http://golang.org/doc/go_faq.html

>From what I've read about Go Programming Language, this would be a perfect 
candidate for a robust ILS to be written in.  I think this and languages like 
this may end up requiring the need for even faster bus speeds and faster 
networking.

Thomas



On Wednesday 24 March 2010 15:24:55 you wrote:
> A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
> studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
> back into some programming--I took two classes in college
> (VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
> exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
> my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
> neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
> completely on my own (thank goodness).
> 
> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> would be extremely appreciated
> 
> JC
> 

-- 
==
Thomas McMillan Grant Bennett   Appalachian State University
Operations & Systems AnalystP O Box 32026
University LibraryBoone, North Carolina 28608
(828) 262 6587

Library Systems Help Desk: https://www.library.appstate.edu/help/
==

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Kyle Banerjee]

>
> > Just as important as the actual language may be the programming
> techniques
> > you will have to learn. Now-a-day knowing how to read and write XML is
> almost
> > imperative. Knowing how to do I/O against a database is all but
> necessary.
> > Understanding how to send URL's to remote resources and parsing the
> results
> > is common place. Learning how to output your content as an HTTP response
> is
> > all too common. All of the languages incorporate extensions for doing
> such
> > things.
>
> As a relative newbie myself, any advice on how/where to pick up these
> particular things? (Especially everything after the XML.)
>

Just so I can use some of my favorite technical jargon, you need to find a
"reference implementation." That's a fancy way of saying, find the simplest
example you can. Then just copy and tweak the code until you grok
it. There's an infinite amount to learn, so just take on things one at a
time.

Eric's advice that you need to figure out which community is the best match
for the problems you want to solve is spot on. Once you do that, everything
will naturally fall into place. The right community will help you figure out
how to wrap your mind around what you're trying to solve, what you need to
pursue, and give advice on specific challenges you face.

kyle

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Eric Celeste]

I agree with the responses that suggest you look at the problems you want to
solve and then decide which language, and more importantly which _community_
surrounding a language, is most in tune with solving those problems.

If you are not sure what you want to solve, but just looking for ways to
stay sharp, I have two current favorite ways to do that:

(1) JavaScript is already available to you, very versatile, and a lot of fun
to play with.

JavaScript is built in to every browser. You don't need to have access to a
web server to have a lot of fun with it. There are a ton of books, lots of
websites, and all kinds of small problems you can solve with it. It is the
foundation of client-side computation on the web, a key way that current
websites become more responsive to their users. Add some study of CSS
(cascading style sheets) and you can do miraculous things with JavaScript.
If you go this route, don't be shy of using jQuery from the beginning. It
only makes JavaScript easier to use when manipulating web pages.

(2) Ruby is a blast, and Ruby on Rails is a rocket.

Most server side tools require a whole suite of tools working in concert to
get going. PHP depends on Apache and often on plugins that can take a bit of
tweaking. Ruby, on the other hand, pretty much depends on itself. And Ruby
on Rails gives you a whole web server environment to play with on your own
machine without much hassle. You don't really even need to install a
database to get started, since it can use SQLite. If you get serious, you
can even deploy a Rails app via Heruku for free or cheap. Ruby is, IMHO, a
beautiful syntax and may actually make you smile as you code. Rails made me
laugh out loud as it simplified what I thought of as horribly complex tasks
in other languages and environments, though it also made my head hurt as I
unlearned old habits. If nothing else, you may be entertained while
learning. Give http://tryruby.org 20 minutes for a taste.

These are my current thoughts, very different than what you might have heard
from me a year ago. But really, a lot depends on the problems you are trying
to solve. Think about those for a while and let them lead you.

...Eric

Eric Celeste / e...@clst.org / http://eric.clst.org / 651-323-2009


On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 2:24 PM, jenny  wrote:

> A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
> studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
> back into some programming--I took two classes in college
> (VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
> exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
> my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
> neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
> completely on my own (thank goodness).
>
> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> would be extremely appreciated
>
> JC
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Laura Harris]

>>> On 3/24/2010 at 4:08 PM,  wrote:
[snip]
> Just as important as the actual language may be the programming techniques 
> you will have to learn. Now-a-day knowing how to read and write XML is almost 
> imperative. Knowing how to do I/O against a database is all but necessary. 
> Understanding how to send URL's to remote resources and parsing the results 
> is common place. Learning how to output your content as an HTTP response is 
> all too common. All of the languages incorporate extensions for doing such 
> things.
[/snip]

As a relative newbie myself, any advice on how/where to pick up these 
particular things? (Especially everything after the XML.) 

Thanks,

Laura Harris
Web Services Librarian
Grand Valley State University

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Kyle Banerjee]

>
> A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
> studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
> back into some programming--I took two classes in college
> (VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
> exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
> my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
> neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
> completely on my own (thank goodness).
>
> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> would be extremely appreciated
>
> Pick something that you need for a specific project. You already know how
to program, so picking up a language for its own sake will mostly be an
academic exercise for you.

If you just take a course or pick up a book to learn a new language, you'll
wind up doing the same things you already know how to do just using slightly
different syntax.

Syntax is the least important difference between the languages. More
important is knowing which ones are better suited to which applications.

My advice would be to work on a project and if it calls for a language that
you don't know, then pick up that. If it calls for something you already
know like PHP, just use that and pick up your new language when you need to
later. In other words, learn what you need. It's dang hard to remember
anything you don't actively use.

kyle



-- 
--
Kyle Banerjee
Digital Services Program Manager
Orbis Cascade Alliance
baner...@uoregon.edu / 503.999.9787

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Eric Lease Morgan]

On Mar 24, 2010, at 3:24 PM, jenny wrote:

> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> would be extremely appreciated


If you are approaching the problem for the point of view of learning a 
programming language, then then you have outlined pretty good choices. At the 
risk of starting a religious war, I like Perl, but PHP is more popular. Java is 
pretty good too, but IMHO it doesn't really matter. In the end you will need to 
use the best tool for the job.

Another way to approach the problem is to have a programming language dictated 
to you. Is there  a particular (open source) software package that interests 
you? Koha? WordPress? Lucene? If so, then choose the language of that software 
package. Perl, PHP, and Java, respectively.

Just as important as the actual language may be the programming techniques you 
will have to learn. Now-a-day knowing how to read and write XML is almost 
imperative. Knowing how to do I/O against a database is all but necessary. 
Understanding how to send URL's to remote resources and parsing the results is 
common place. Learning how to output your content as an HTTP response is all 
too common. All of the languages incorporate extensions for doing such things.

Finally, the whole thing usually boils down to, "What works for you?" 
Personally, I have never been able to pick up a computer language without first 
having real-world problem to solve. Do you have any "itches" that need 
"scratching"?

-- 
Eric Lease Morgan
University of Notre Dame

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Ethan Gruber]

Hi Jenny,

What are your professional interests in the library?  You should pick a
language that is relevant and a useful tool for doing what interests you.

Ethan

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rosalyn Metz  wrote:

> Jenny,
>
> I discovered (i think through a code4libber) the other day a great
> series of videos on learning python.  It was put out by Google as part
> of a series they do for their employees.
>
> http://code.google.com/edu/languages/
>
> I myself don't know Python (i wish i did), but that section of the
> page seems the most robust.  That in conjunction with a book might be
> useful.  And if your partner knows it, all the better.
>
> Also we've had this debate in the past.  Maybe taking a look in the
> code4lib archives might also be useful.
>
> Rosalyn
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:24 PM, jenny  wrote:
> > A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
> > studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
> > back into some programming--I took two classes in college
> > (VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
> > exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
> > my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
> > neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
> > completely on my own (thank goodness).
> >
> > My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> > right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> > have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> > would be extremely appreciated
> >
> > JC
> >
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] newbie

[Rosalyn Metz]

Jenny,

I discovered (i think through a code4libber) the other day a great
series of videos on learning python.  It was put out by Google as part
of a series they do for their employees.

http://code.google.com/edu/languages/

I myself don't know Python (i wish i did), but that section of the
page seems the most robust.  That in conjunction with a book might be
useful.  And if your partner knows it, all the better.

Also we've had this debate in the past.  Maybe taking a look in the
code4lib archives might also be useful.

Rosalyn


On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:24 PM, jenny  wrote:
> A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
> studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
> back into some programming--I took two classes in college
> (VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
> exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
> my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
> neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
> completely on my own (thank goodness).
>
> My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
> right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
> have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
> would be extremely appreciated
>
> JC
>

[CODE4LIB] newbie

[jenny]

A newly-minted library school grad who has up to this point focused my
studies on Rare Books and Book Arts, I've been interested in getting
back into some programming--I took two classes in college
(VisualBASIC), have a smattering of web design and php, MySQL,
exposure, but I'd like to try my hand at teaching myself a language in
my free time. My partner is a former dotcom programmer (now studying
neuroscience) and has offered to assist when needed, so I'm not
completely on my own (thank goodness).

My question is, where would you recommend I would begin? What's hot
right now in the library world? Python, PERL, Ruby? Any advice you'd
have for a beginner like me or even recommendations for online courses
would be extremely appreciated

JC

Re: [CODE4LIB] FW: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Roy Tennant]

The text of this page:

<http://xissn.worldcat.org/xissnadmin/doc/subscribe.htm>

Did have "higher usage per request" for the options under "OCLC Cataloging
Members" but now it has been added to "Free service with registration."
There is also now a link there to the correct email address to request such
an exception. Thanks for pointing this out,
Roy


On 6/15/09 6/15/09 • 1:15 PM, "Jonathan Rochkind"  wrote:

> Does the xISSN documentation say that exceptions by non-OCLC members can
> be asked for, and instruct on where to make the request?  If you want to
> keep from discouraging use accidentally by people who don't know they
> can get an exception, it needs to say that on the same page that talks
> about the 100/day limit, not just on the code4lib listserv.
> 
> Roy Tennant wrote:
>> It is worth following up on Xiaoming's statement of a limit of 100 uses per
>> day of the xISSN service with the information that exceptions to this limite
>> are certainly granted. Annette probably knows that just such an exception
>> was granted to her LibX project, and LibX remains the single largest user of
>> this service. 
>> Roy
>> 
>> On 6/13/09 4:02 PM, "Xiaoming Liu"  wrote:
>> 
>>   
>>> Annette's comment is correct. XISSN service allows 100 uses per day for
>>> non-OCLC usage. I don't think xISSN's price proposal is ever approved, so we
>>> don't have a price list for commercial usage.
>>> 
>>> XISSN's access control is sort of complex, for more details please check
>>> http://xissn.worldcat.org/xissnadmin/doc/subscribe.htm , hopefully we can
>>> clean it up in the future.
>>> 
>>> xiaoming
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 6/13/09 3:52 PM, "Hamparian,Don"  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>>> You can also purchase. I thought it was 500 usages a day. Xiaoming?
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>>> -Original Message-
>>>>> From: Tennant,Roy
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:02 PM
>>>>> To: Hamparian,Don
>>>>> Subject: FW: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with
>>>>> javascript
>>>>> 
>>>>> I think I have to say yes to this, although it isn't going to make us
>>>>> look
>>>>> great.
>>>>> Roy
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> -- Forwarded Message
>>>>> From: Annette Bailey 
>>>>> Reply-To: Code for Libraries 
>>>>> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:55:57 -0400
>>>>> To: 
>>>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with
>>>>> javascript
>>>>> 
>>>>> Roy,
>>>>> 
>>>>> Just to clarify, you have to be an OCLC cataloging member to use this
>>>>> beyond 100 uses per day, correct?
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>> Annette
>>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Roy Tennant wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> This data (the Tic-Tocs RSS URLs) is also available via xISSN. For
>>>>>>   
>>>>> example:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> <http://xissn.worldcat.org/webservices/xid/issn/1095-
>>>>>>   
>>>>> 9203?method=getMetadata
>>>>> 
>>>>>> &format=xml&fl=*>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Look for the "rssurl" attribute. For information on xISSN see:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> <http://xissn.worldcat.org/xissnadmin/>
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Roy
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> On 6/11/09 6/11/09 € 12:36 PM, "Derik Badman" 
>>>>>>   
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Jon Gorman
>>>>>>>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> I guess the first question is if it is really necessary to use a
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>> text
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> file?  I'm not entirely clear on this process, but perhaps the text
>>>>>>>> file could be imported into a database.
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>> At this point the text file is a stop-gap api that ticTOCs is
>>>>>>>
>>>>> offering
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> (supposedly working an actual api), so this will probably be a
>>>>>>>
>>>>> temporary
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> situation. I could put all the data into mysql, though then I'd have
>>>>>>>
>>>>> to
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> figure out how to check the text file for changes and then update
>>>>>>>
>>>>> the
>>>>> 
>>>>>>> database accordingly.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Then of course perhaps there's some way to add this to the Serials
>>>>>>>> Solution database directly?  Then you don't need another javascript
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>> at
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> all?
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>> I'm so disillusioned with them, that I didn't even consider that...
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> cron + wget/curl would be a good first step it would seem.  You
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>> might
>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> want some sort of script that monitors changes or the like.  (Maybe
>>>>>>>> send you an email if there's no updates in x days or something like
>>>>>>>> that).
>>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>> Thanks, I'll look into that.
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>   
>>>>> -- End of Forwarded Message
>>>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- End of Forwarded Message
>>   
> 

-- 

Re: [CODE4LIB] FW: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Godmar Back]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2009 at 4:09 PM, Roy Tennant  wrote:

> It is worth following up on Xiaoming's statement of a limit of 100 uses per
> day of the xISSN service with the information that exceptions to this
> limite
> are certainly granted. Annette probably knows that just such an exception
> was granted to her LibX project, and LibX remains the single largest user
> of
> this service.
> Roy


Yes, Roy is correct.

We are very grateful for OCLC's generous support and would like to
acknowledge that publicly.

FWIW, I suggested the inclusion of ticTOCs RSS feed data in the survey OCLC
sent out two weeks ago, and less than a week later, OCLC rolls out the
improved service. Excellent!

[ As an aside, in LibX, we are changing the way we use the service;
previously, we were looking up all ISSNs on any page a user visits; we are
now retrieving the metadata if the user actually hovers over the link. Not
that OCLC complained - but CrossRef did when they noticed > 100,000 hits per
day against their service for DOI metadata lookups. In fairness to CrossRef,
they are working on beefing up their servers as well. ]

 - Godmar & Annette for Team LibX.

Re: [CODE4LIB] FW: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Jonathan Rochkind]

Does the xISSN documentation say that exceptions by non-OCLC members can 
be asked for, and instruct on where to make the request?  If you want to 
keep from discouraging use accidentally by people who don't know they 
can get an exception, it needs to say that on the same page that talks 
about the 100/day limit, not just on the code4lib listserv.


Roy Tennant wrote:

It is worth following up on Xiaoming's statement of a limit of 100 uses per
day of the xISSN service with the information that exceptions to this limite
are certainly granted. Annette probably knows that just such an exception
was granted to her LibX project, and LibX remains the single largest user of
this service. 
Roy


On 6/13/09 4:02 PM, "Xiaoming Liu"  wrote:

  

Annette's comment is correct. XISSN service allows 100 uses per day for
non-OCLC usage. I don't think xISSN's price proposal is ever approved, so we
don't have a price list for commercial usage.

XISSN's access control is sort of complex, for more details please check
http://xissn.worldcat.org/xissnadmin/doc/subscribe.htm , hopefully we can
clean it up in the future.

xiaoming


On 6/13/09 3:52 PM, "Hamparian,Don"  wrote:



You can also purchase. I thought it was 500 usages a day. Xiaoming?

  

-Original Message-
From: Tennant,Roy
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:02 PM
To: Hamparian,Don
Subject: FW: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with
javascript

I think I have to say yes to this, although it isn't going to make us
look
great.
Roy


-- Forwarded Message
From: Annette Bailey 
Reply-To: Code for Libraries 
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:55:57 -0400
To: 
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with
javascript

Roy,

Just to clarify, you have to be an OCLC cataloging member to use this
beyond 100 uses per day, correct?

Thanks,
Annette

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Roy Tennant wrote:


This data (the Tic-Tocs RSS URLs) is also available via xISSN. For
  

example:


<http://xissn.worldcat.org/webservices/xid/issn/1095-
  

9203?method=getMetadata


&format=xml&fl=*>

Look for the "rssurl" attribute. For information on xISSN see:

<http://xissn.worldcat.org/xissnadmin/>

Roy


On 6/11/09 6/11/09 € 12:36 PM, "Derik Badman" 
  

wrote:


On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Jon Gorman


wrote:


I guess the first question is if it is really necessary to use a
  

text


file?  I'm not entirely clear on this process, but perhaps the text
file could be imported into a database.
  

At this point the text file is a stop-gap api that ticTOCs is


offering


(supposedly working an actual api), so this will probably be a


temporary


situation. I could put all the data into mysql, though then I'd have


to


figure out how to check the text file for changes and then update


the


database accordingly.




Then of course perhaps there's some way to add this to the Serials
Solution database directly?  Then you don't need another javascript
  

at


all?
  

I'm so disillusioned with them, that I didn't even consider that...





cron + wget/curl would be a good first step it would seem.  You
  

might


want some sort of script that monitors changes or the like.  (Maybe
send you an email if there's no updates in x days or something like
that).
  

Thanks, I'll look into that.



--

  

-- End of Forwarded Message




-- End of Forwarded Message
  

[CODE4LIB] FW: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Roy Tennant]

It is worth following up on Xiaoming's statement of a limit of 100 uses per
day of the xISSN service with the information that exceptions to this limite
are certainly granted. Annette probably knows that just such an exception
was granted to her LibX project, and LibX remains the single largest user of
this service. 
Roy

On 6/13/09 4:02 PM, "Xiaoming Liu"  wrote:

> Annette's comment is correct. XISSN service allows 100 uses per day for
> non-OCLC usage. I don't think xISSN's price proposal is ever approved, so we
> don't have a price list for commercial usage.
> 
> XISSN's access control is sort of complex, for more details please check
> http://xissn.worldcat.org/xissnadmin/doc/subscribe.htm , hopefully we can
> clean it up in the future.
> 
> xiaoming
> 
> 
> On 6/13/09 3:52 PM, "Hamparian,Don"  wrote:
> 
>> You can also purchase. I thought it was 500 usages a day. Xiaoming?
>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Tennant,Roy
>>> Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 5:02 PM
>>> To: Hamparian,Don
>>> Subject: FW: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with
>>> javascript
>>> 
>>> I think I have to say yes to this, although it isn't going to make us
>>> look
>>> great.
>>> Roy
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- Forwarded Message
>>> From: Annette Bailey 
>>> Reply-To: Code for Libraries 
>>> Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 16:55:57 -0400
>>> To: 
>>> Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with
>>> javascript
>>> 
>>> Roy,
>>> 
>>> Just to clarify, you have to be an OCLC cataloging member to use this
>>> beyond 100 uses per day, correct?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Annette
>>> 
>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Roy Tennant wrote:
>>>> This data (the Tic-Tocs RSS URLs) is also available via xISSN. For
>>> example:
>>>> 
>>>> <http://xissn.worldcat.org/webservices/xid/issn/1095-
>>> 9203?method=getMetadata
>>>> &format=xml&fl=*>
>>>> 
>>>> Look for the "rssurl" attribute. For information on xISSN see:
>>>> 
>>>> <http://xissn.worldcat.org/xissnadmin/>
>>>> 
>>>> Roy
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> On 6/11/09 6/11/09 € 12:36 PM, "Derik Badman" 
>>> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Jon Gorman
>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>> I guess the first question is if it is really necessary to use a
>>> text
>>>>>> file?  I'm not entirely clear on this process, but perhaps the text
>>>>>> file could be imported into a database.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> At this point the text file is a stop-gap api that ticTOCs is
>>> offering
>>>>> (supposedly working an actual api), so this will probably be a
>>> temporary
>>>>> situation. I could put all the data into mysql, though then I'd have
>>> to
>>>>> figure out how to check the text file for changes and then update
>>> the
>>>>> database accordingly.
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> Then of course perhaps there's some way to add this to the Serials
>>>>>> Solution database directly?  Then you don't need another javascript
>>> at
>>>>>> all?
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> I'm so disillusioned with them, that I didn't even consider that...
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>>> cron + wget/curl would be a good first step it would seem.  You
>>> might
>>>>>> want some sort of script that monitors changes or the like.  (Maybe
>>>>>> send you an email if there's no updates in x days or something like
>>>>>> that).
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> Thanks, I'll look into that.
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> --
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- End of Forwarded Message
>> 


-- End of Forwarded Message

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Derik Badman]

Thanks for the suggestions and links, everyone.

I'll check them out and see what will work for me.

-- 
Derik A. Badman
Digital Services Librarian
Reference Librarian for Education and Social Work
Temple University Libraries
Paley Library 209
Philadelphia, PA
Phone: 215-204-5250
Email: dbad...@temple.edu
AIM: derikbad

"Research makes times march forward, it makes time march backward, and it
also makes time stand still." -Greil Marcus

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Boheemen, Peter van]

Or use the modified xissn service of OCLC: 
http://xissn.worldcat.org/webservices/xid/issn/1095-9203?method=getMetadata&fl=issnl,rssurl
 
Peter
 
Drs. P.J.C. van Boheemen
Hoofd Applicatieontwikkeling en beheer - Bibliotheek Wageningen UR
Head of Application Development and Management - Wageningen University and 
Research Library
tel. +31 317 48 25 17   
 http://library.wur.nl <http://library.wur.nl/> 
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



From: Code for Libraries on behalf of Godmar Back
Sent: Fri 12-6-2009 5:55
To: CODE4LIB@LISTSERV.ND.EDU
Subject: Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript



Yes - see this email
http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2009/200905/0909.html

If you can host yourself, the stand-alone version is efficient and easy to
keep up to date - just run a cronjob that downloads the text file from JISC.
My WSGI script will automatically pick up if it has changed on disk.

 - Godmar

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Annette Bailey  wrote:

> Godmar Back wrote a web service in python for ticTOC with an eye to
> incorporating links into III's Millennium catalog.
>
> http://code.google.com/p/tictoclookup/
>
> http://tictoclookup.appspot.com/
>
> Annette
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Derik Badman wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Just joined the list, and I'm hoping to get a suggestion or two.
> >
> > I'm working on using the ticTOCs ( http://www.tictocs.ac.uk/ ) text file
> of
> > rss feed urls for journals to insert links to those feeds in our Serials
> > Solution Journal Finder.
> >
> > I've got it working using a bit of jQuery.
> >
> > Demo here: http://155.247.22.22/badman/toc/demo.html
> > The javascript is here: http://155.247.22.22/badman/toc/toc-rss.js
> >
> > Getting that working wasn't too hard, but I'm a bit concerned about
> > efficiency and caching.
> >
> > I'm not sure the way I'm checking isbns against the text file is the most
> > efficient way to go. Basically I'm making an ajax call to the file that
> > takes the data and makes an array of objects. I then query the isbn of
> each
> > journal on the page against the array of objects. If there's a match I
> pull
> > the data and put it on the page. I'm wondering if there's a better way to
> do
> > this, especially since the text file is over 1mb. I'm not looking for
> code,
> > just ideas.
> >
> > I'm also looking for any pointers about using the file itself and somehow
> > auto-downloading it to my server on a regular basis. Right now I just
> saved
> > a copy to my server, but in the future it'd be good to automate grabbing
> the
> > file from ticTOCs server on a regular basis and updating the one on my
> > server (perhaps I'd need to use a cron job to do that?).
> >
> > Thanks for much for any suggestions or pointers. (For what it's worth, I
> can
> > manage with javascript or php.)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Derik A. Badman
> > Digital Services Librarian
> > Reference Librarian for Education and Social Work
> > Temple University Libraries
> > Paley Library 209
> > Philadelphia, PA
> > Phone: 215-204-5250
> > Email: dbad...@temple.edu
> > AIM: derikbad
> >
> > "Research makes times march forward, it makes time march backward, and it
> > also makes time stand still." -Greil Marcus
> >
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Godmar Back]

Yes - see this email
http://serials.infomotions.com/code4lib/archive/2009/200905/0909.html

If you can host yourself, the stand-alone version is efficient and easy to
keep up to date - just run a cronjob that downloads the text file from JISC.
My WSGI script will automatically pick up if it has changed on disk.

 - Godmar

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Annette Bailey  wrote:

> Godmar Back wrote a web service in python for ticTOC with an eye to
> incorporating links into III's Millennium catalog.
>
> http://code.google.com/p/tictoclookup/
>
> http://tictoclookup.appspot.com/
>
> Annette
>
> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Derik Badman wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > Just joined the list, and I'm hoping to get a suggestion or two.
> >
> > I'm working on using the ticTOCs ( http://www.tictocs.ac.uk/ ) text file
> of
> > rss feed urls for journals to insert links to those feeds in our Serials
> > Solution Journal Finder.
> >
> > I've got it working using a bit of jQuery.
> >
> > Demo here: http://155.247.22.22/badman/toc/demo.html
> > The javascript is here: http://155.247.22.22/badman/toc/toc-rss.js
> >
> > Getting that working wasn't too hard, but I'm a bit concerned about
> > efficiency and caching.
> >
> > I'm not sure the way I'm checking isbns against the text file is the most
> > efficient way to go. Basically I'm making an ajax call to the file that
> > takes the data and makes an array of objects. I then query the isbn of
> each
> > journal on the page against the array of objects. If there's a match I
> pull
> > the data and put it on the page. I'm wondering if there's a better way to
> do
> > this, especially since the text file is over 1mb. I'm not looking for
> code,
> > just ideas.
> >
> > I'm also looking for any pointers about using the file itself and somehow
> > auto-downloading it to my server on a regular basis. Right now I just
> saved
> > a copy to my server, but in the future it'd be good to automate grabbing
> the
> > file from ticTOCs server on a regular basis and updating the one on my
> > server (perhaps I'd need to use a cron job to do that?).
> >
> > Thanks for much for any suggestions or pointers. (For what it's worth, I
> can
> > manage with javascript or php.)
> >
> >
> > --
> > Derik A. Badman
> > Digital Services Librarian
> > Reference Librarian for Education and Social Work
> > Temple University Libraries
> > Paley Library 209
> > Philadelphia, PA
> > Phone: 215-204-5250
> > Email: dbad...@temple.edu
> > AIM: derikbad
> >
> > "Research makes times march forward, it makes time march backward, and it
> > also makes time stand still." -Greil Marcus
> >
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Annette Bailey]

Roy,

Just to clarify, you have to be an OCLC cataloging member to use this
beyond 100 uses per day, correct?

Thanks,
Annette

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 4:48 PM, Roy Tennant wrote:
> This data (the Tic-Tocs RSS URLs) is also available via xISSN. For example:
>
>  &format=xml&fl=*>
>
> Look for the "rssurl" attribute. For information on xISSN see:
>
> 
>
> Roy
>
>
> On 6/11/09 6/11/09 € 12:36 PM, "Derik Badman"  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Jon Gorman wrote:
>>
>>> I guess the first question is if it is really necessary to use a text
>>> file?  I'm not entirely clear on this process, but perhaps the text
>>> file could be imported into a database.
>>
>>
>> At this point the text file is a stop-gap api that ticTOCs is offering
>> (supposedly working an actual api), so this will probably be a temporary
>> situation. I could put all the data into mysql, though then I'd have to
>> figure out how to check the text file for changes and then update the
>> database accordingly.
>>
>>
>>> Then of course perhaps there's some way to add this to the Serials
>>> Solution database directly?  Then you don't need another javascript at
>>> all?
>>
>>
>> I'm so disillusioned with them, that I didn't even consider that...
>>
>>
>>
>>> cron + wget/curl would be a good first step it would seem.  You might
>>> want some sort of script that monitors changes or the like.  (Maybe
>>> send you an email if there's no updates in x days or something like
>>> that).
>>
>>
>> Thanks, I'll look into that.
>>
>
> --
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Roy Tennant]

This data (the Tic-Tocs RSS URLs) is also available via xISSN. For example:



Look for the "rssurl" attribute. For information on xISSN see:



Roy


On 6/11/09 6/11/09 € 12:36 PM, "Derik Badman"  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Jon Gorman wrote:
> 
>> I guess the first question is if it is really necessary to use a text
>> file?  I'm not entirely clear on this process, but perhaps the text
>> file could be imported into a database.
> 
> 
> At this point the text file is a stop-gap api that ticTOCs is offering
> (supposedly working an actual api), so this will probably be a temporary
> situation. I could put all the data into mysql, though then I'd have to
> figure out how to check the text file for changes and then update the
> database accordingly.
> 
> 
>> Then of course perhaps there's some way to add this to the Serials
>> Solution database directly?  Then you don't need another javascript at
>> all?
> 
> 
> I'm so disillusioned with them, that I didn't even consider that...
> 
> 
> 
>> cron + wget/curl would be a good first step it would seem.  You might
>> want some sort of script that monitors changes or the like.  (Maybe
>> send you an email if there's no updates in x days or something like
>> that).
> 
> 
> Thanks, I'll look into that.
> 

-- 

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Derik Badman]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Tom Pasley  wrote:

> - Are you running on windows or unix on the server?



> -Are you able to install anything on the server - are you an admin or
>
similar?
> - Are you able to run a scripting language like PHP on the server?
> - Do you have access to a database such as MySQL or MSSQL, etc?


Its unix with php and mysql working on it. I'm not an admin though.


> it seems you're comfortable with javascript, so I think you'd
> be fine with something like Perl of PHP.


I can get by with php, probably moreso than with javascript at this point.

-- 
Derik A. Badman
Digital Services Librarian
Reference Librarian for Education and Social Work
Temple University Libraries
Paley Library 209
Philadelphia, PA
Phone: 215-204-5250
Email: dbad...@temple.edu
AIM: derikbad

"Research makes times march forward, it makes time march backward, and it
also makes time stand still." -Greil Marcus

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Derik Badman]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Jon Gorman wrote:

> I guess the first question is if it is really necessary to use a text
> file?  I'm not entirely clear on this process, but perhaps the text
> file could be imported into a database.


At this point the text file is a stop-gap api that ticTOCs is offering
(supposedly working an actual api), so this will probably be a temporary
situation. I could put all the data into mysql, though then I'd have to
figure out how to check the text file for changes and then update the
database accordingly.


> Then of course perhaps there's some way to add this to the Serials
> Solution database directly?  Then you don't need another javascript at
> all?


I'm so disillusioned with them, that I didn't even consider that...



> cron + wget/curl would be a good first step it would seem.  You might
> want some sort of script that monitors changes or the like.  (Maybe
> send you an email if there's no updates in x days or something like
> that).


Thanks, I'll look into that.


-- 
Derik A. Badman
Digital Services Librarian
Reference Librarian for Education and Social Work
Temple University Libraries
Paley Library 209
Philadelphia, PA
Phone: 215-204-5250
Email: dbad...@temple.edu
AIM: derikbad

"Research makes times march forward, it makes time march backward, and it
also makes time stand still." -Greil Marcus

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Tom Pasley]

Hi Derik,

This looks good... I suppose the question to some of your questions is
what's in your toolbox?

Specifically:

- Are you running on windows or unix on the server?
- Are you able to install anything on the server - are you an admin or
similar?
- Are you able to run a scripting language like PHP on the server?
- Do you have access to a database such as MySQL or MSSQL, etc?

I agree with Jon - it'd be much more efficient to store this in a database,
and your looking at a simple table to store the ticTocs data.

Answers to these questions will help listserv members come up with suitable
suggestions - it seems you're comfortable with javascript, so I think you'd
be fine with something like Perl of PHP.

cheers,

Tom

On Fri, Jun 12, 2009 at 4:34 AM, Derik Badman  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> Just joined the list, and I'm hoping to get a suggestion or two.
>
> I'm working on using the ticTOCs ( http://www.tictocs.ac.uk/ ) text file
> of
> rss feed urls for journals to insert links to those feeds in our Serials
> Solution Journal Finder.
>
> I've got it working using a bit of jQuery.
>
> Demo here: http://155.247.22.22/badman/toc/demo.html
> The javascript is here: http://155.247.22.22/badman/toc/toc-rss.js
>
> Getting that working wasn't too hard, but I'm a bit concerned about
> efficiency and caching.
>
> I'm not sure the way I'm checking isbns against the text file is the most
> efficient way to go. Basically I'm making an ajax call to the file that
> takes the data and makes an array of objects. I then query the isbn of each
> journal on the page against the array of objects. If there's a match I pull
> the data and put it on the page. I'm wondering if there's a better way to
> do
> this, especially since the text file is over 1mb. I'm not looking for code,
> just ideas.
>
> I'm also looking for any pointers about using the file itself and somehow
> auto-downloading it to my server on a regular basis. Right now I just saved
> a copy to my server, but in the future it'd be good to automate grabbing
> the
> file from ticTOCs server on a regular basis and updating the one on my
> server (perhaps I'd need to use a cron job to do that?).
>
> Thanks for much for any suggestions or pointers. (For what it's worth, I
> can
> manage with javascript or php.)
>
>
> --
> Derik A. Badman
> Digital Services Librarian
> Reference Librarian for Education and Social Work
> Temple University Libraries
> Paley Library 209
> Philadelphia, PA
> Phone: 215-204-5250
> Email: dbad...@temple.edu
> AIM: derikbad
>
> "Research makes times march forward, it makes time march backward, and it
> also makes time stand still." -Greil Marcus
>

Re: [CODE4LIB] Newbie asking for some suggestions with javascript

[Jon Gorman]

On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Derik Badman wrote:
> Hello all,

> I'm not sure the way I'm checking isbns against the text file is the most
> efficient way to go. Basically I'm making an ajax call to the file that
> takes the data and makes an array of objects. I then query the isbn of each
> journal on the page against the array of objects. If there's a match I pull
> the data and put it on the page. I'm wondering if there's a better way to do
> this, especially since the text file is over 1mb. I'm not looking for code,
> just ideas.


I guess the first question is if it is really necessary to use a text
file?  I'm not entirely clear on this process, but perhaps the text
file could be imported into a database.  You could attempt to use some
sort of function that cleans up ISBNs and use that as the lookup.  You
might run into occasional issues such as ISBNs not being unique, but
it sounds like you could run into that issue in any case.

Then of course perhaps there's some way to add this to the Serials
Solution database directly?  Then you don't need another javascript at
all?

>
> I'm also looking for any pointers about using the file itself and somehow
> auto-downloading it to my server on a regular basis. Right now I just saved
> a copy to my server, but in the future it'd be good to automate grabbing the
> file from ticTOCs server on a regular basis and updating the one on my
> server (perhaps I'd need to use a cron job to do that?).
>

cron + wget/curl would be a good first step it would seem.  You might
want some sort of script that monitors changes or the like.  (Maybe
send you an email if there's no updates in x days or something like
that).

Jon Gorman