Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Federico Lorenzi]

Boo, the Glamo seems to kill everything :(

On 6/6/08, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:04:27 -0700 Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> babbled:
>
> at vga.. forget mame and games - they will be doing fullscreen updates. at
> vga... no chance (of any decent framerate). if you don't believe me... try
> it
> when you get one! :)
>
> at qvga though - maybe. also a lot of arcade games are for qvga res... or
> older
> ones are at least...
>
>> You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ...
>>
>> ... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator.
>>
>> I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically
>> experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do
>> something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device.
>>
>> Why not?  Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be
>> pulled out and replaced with a game pad?
>>
>> This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew
>> and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and
>> level on this platform.
>>
>> I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious
>> proposition indeed.
>>
>> - Robert
>>
>> Markus Bossert wrote:
>> > Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer
>> > back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And
>> > gouraud shading.
>> >
>> > Mhmmm.
>> >
>> > If wine happens to run on the om? :-D
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
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>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: resolution preferences??

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 6 Jun 2008 00:02:14 -0400 "Steven Milburn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said
> before, but I'll ask anyway :)
> 
> If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any
> hardware changes?  I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling,
> so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo
> scale it up?
> 
> Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which
> leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)?

we can just drive the vga screen at qvga. no need for scaling - just change the
output at the lcd controller level. but it is a waste to pay for a vga screen
when we won't use it. also it does look "blocky". it isn't about glamo or not -
it's separate to glamo entirely. simply - how important is a vga screen...
really? how many people out there can really see the difference? be really
honest. stop thinking "my specs are bigger than your specs". scan u REALLY see
all the pixels on a vga screen of that size. i bet to most people its all a
blur - a qvga screen looks identical to them. only to a minority who have very
good eyesight does it really make a difference, but this is just my "bet". i'm
asking the question - and hoping for real honest answers.

> --Steve
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> >
> >
> > > > quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
> > we'e
> > > > going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you
> > have to
> > > > fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga
> > is
> > > > worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320?
> >
> > qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240,
> > 432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :)
> >
> > > I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability.
> > > OTOH it would also
> >
> > but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8"
> > vga
> > or 2.8" qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc.
> > etc.
> >
> > also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at
> > a
> > decent physical size.
> >
> > i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution
> > screen
> > would be an ok compromise.
> >
> > > - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes
> >
> > one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in
> > the
> > long-run.
> >
> > > - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight
> > > (granny won't be affected ;-)
> > >
> > > Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my
> > > GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly
> > > cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such)
> > > My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for
> > > those I'd rather go for resolution.
> >
> > again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance
> > better in
> > many ways graphically :)
> >
> > --
> > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> > ___
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> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> 


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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Flyin_bbb8]

"An *A-GPS* receiver can address these problems in several ways, using
an *Assistance
Server*:

   - The Assistance Server can locate the phone roughly by what cell
siteit is connected to on the
cellular
   network .
   - The Assistance Server has a good satellite signal, and lots of
   computation power, so it can compare fragmentary signals relayed to it by
   cell phones, with the satellite signal it receives directly, and then inform
   the cell phone or emergency services of the cell phone's position.
   - It can supply orbital data  for
   the GPS satellites to the cell phone, enabling the cell phone to lock to the
   satellites when it otherwise could not, and autonomously calculate its
   position.
   - It can have better knowledge of
ionosphericconditions and
other errors affecting the GPS signal than the cell phone
   alone, enabling more precise calculation of position. (See also Wide Area
   Augmentation
System)
   "

Info from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGPS ,(I'm not 100% sure about
the precision but at least that's what alot of people have told me, and so
does other websites ), have you run any tests yet Joerg?

I know they do use D-GPS in other industries other than aviation that's
exactly why i said mainly and not only, go ahead and tell me why they made
D-GPS in the first place, and then added the small error in it by the
department of defense of the US :)

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 7:46 AM, Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Am Fr  6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flyin_bbb8:
> > just wanted to add, Differential GPS is mainly for aircraft GPS systems
> to
> > get better guidance on the ILS (Instrument Landing System).
> >
>
> Aaaaha, I seen it being used for all sorts of archeology and buildings
> construction purposes.
> And from the info in the uBlox-paper, regarding the protocol options it
> doesn't seem to me like there is much chance for better precision by the
> way
> they do A-GPS.
> Better precision would mean info on meteorological interference (like exact
> amount clouds on the way to sat) at the very location of the receiver. To
> get
> this, you need... a reference receiver, so we are at D-GPS again.
>
> /j
>
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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Joerg Reisenweber]

Am Fr  6. Juni 2008 schrieb Flyin_bbb8:
> just wanted to add, Differential GPS is mainly for aircraft GPS systems to
> get better guidance on the ILS (Instrument Landing System).
> 

Aaaaha, I seen it being used for all sorts of archeology and buildings 
construction purposes.
And from the info in the uBlox-paper, regarding the protocol options it 
doesn't seem to me like there is much chance for better precision by the way 
they do A-GPS.
Better precision would mean info on meteorological interference (like exact 
amount clouds on the way to sat) at the very location of the receiver. To get 
this, you need... a reference receiver, so we are at D-GPS again.

/j


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Re: resolution preferences??

[Steven Milburn]

This question is probably just because I misunderstood something you said
before, but I'll ask anyway :)

If it is acceptable to use QVGA, couldn't that basically be done without any
hardware changes?  I believe I remember you saying the glamo does scaling,
so couldn't you let SW treat the display as qvga, and just have the glamo
scale it up?

Or, is the question more about having qvga instead of the glamo (which
leaves you back with the SDIO interface shortage)?

--Steve

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 10:42 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
>
> > > quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
> we'e
> > > going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you
> have to
> > > fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga
> is
> > > worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
> > >
> > >
> > Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320?
>
> qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240,
> 432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :)
>
> > I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability.
> > OTOH it would also
>
> but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8"
> vga
> or 2.8" qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc.
> etc.
>
> also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at
> a
> decent physical size.
>
> i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution
> screen
> would be an ok compromise.
>
> > - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes
>
> one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in
> the
> long-run.
>
> > - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight
> > (granny won't be affected ;-)
> >
> > Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my
> > GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly
> > cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such)
> > My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for
> > those I'd rather go for resolution.
>
> again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance
> better in
> many ways graphically :)
>
> --
> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
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Re: USA, East coast groupe order

[Gilbert Hartmann]

Sounds like a good plan to me

Paul Buede wrote:
> Count me in. 
> 
> Feydreva wrote:
>> It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in
>> New york.
>>
>> New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?
>>
>> I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the
>> phone in VA.
>>
>> Philippe
>>
>>
>> 
>>
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>>   


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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Flyin_bbb8]

just wanted to add, Differential GPS is mainly for aircraft GPS systems to
get better guidance on the ILS (Instrument Landing System).
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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Flyin_bbb8]

actually i believe it does help in much better accuracy (unless if you're
indoors)

On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 3:11 AM, Lally Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Am Do  5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh:
> >> AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
> >> onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
> >> for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
> >> satellite triangulation.
> >
> > It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell
> the
> > receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all
> > possible "channels" and "download" the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem
> and
> > alm in uBlox paper.
> >
> > [1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference
> > receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in
> > sub-meter accuracy.
> >
> > Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just
> after
> > typing the above.
>
> Ah, my mistake.  I was hoping for more than just an almanac/ephem
> upload.  I'm a lot less excited now.
>
> --
> H. Lally Singh
> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
> Virginia Tech
>
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Re: keyboard openmoko-qtopia-x11-image

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:51:53 +0200 Michael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> hi all,
> 
> i spent some times to search how can change the virtual keyboard 
> (openmoko-qtopia-x11-image) from letters to numerical classification. but i 
> dont find it :( 
> 
> is it possible to change?
> how i can change this?

slide finger up the keyboard (down is "enter", left is backspace, right is
"space and start new word").

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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:40:01 +0530 "Rahul Joshi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

>  > Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
> > it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
> > think and the FreeRunner should be faster.
> 
> don't be so sure about that! :)
> 
> Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973
> & FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking)

i have both - and have run it on both. :) don't assume it will be faster on a
gta02. unfortunate facts :( it isn't.

> Rahul J
> 
> 
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 "Pietro \"m0nt0\" Montorfano"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> >
> > > thomasg ha scritto:
> > > > Hi list,
> > > >
> > > > there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the
> > > > change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos,
> > too.
> > > > So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it
> > > > behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
> > > >
> > > > I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1]
> > > > (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
> > > > It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely
> > > > doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the
> > > > softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look
> > alike.
> > > > Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16
> > > > MB, ~3.5 min)
> > > > I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500
> > > > kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
> > > > Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
> > > >
> > > > P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
> > >
> > > Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
> > > it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
> > > think and the FreeRunner should be faster.
> >
> > don't be so sure about that! :)
> >
> > > I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us
> > > keep the freerunner in our hands :D
> > >
> > > Cya!!
> > >
> > > Pietro
> > >
> > > ___
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> > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> >
> >
> > --
> > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
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> >
> 


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 13:04:27 -0700 Robert Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

at vga.. forget mame and games - they will be doing fullscreen updates. at
vga... no chance (of any decent framerate). if you don't believe me... try it
when you get one! :)

at qvga though - maybe. also a lot of arcade games are for qvga res... or older
ones are at least...

> You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ...
> 
> ... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator.
> 
> I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically 
> experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do 
> something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device.
> 
> Why not?  Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be 
> pulled out and replaced with a game pad?
> 
> This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew 
> and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and 
> level on this platform.
> 
> I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious 
> proposition indeed.
> 
> - Robert
> 
> Markus Bossert wrote:
> > Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer 
> > back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And 
> > gouraud shading.
> >
> > Mhmmm.
> >
> > If wine happens to run on the om? :-D
> >
> >
> 
> 
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 12:56:00 +0200 Tom Cooksey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> Well... yeah, that's kindof the reason for the initial post! I must have
> misunderstood previous posts as I was convinced the glamo was itself attached
> to the CPU's SDIO interface. You can understand where I was coming from now!

:)

> Right. Shame the cpu doesn't have more cache so it has a better change of
> getting on with something else while the DMA occurs.
> 
> Thanks for clearing things up. It's good to hear that the problem isn't
> because of any particularly bad decision on OpenMoko's part. Renews my faith
> a little. :-)

glamo is a fairly old graphics cpu and design. frankly it was designed for qvga
- at best. it CAN do vga, but that is beyond its intended use. we have pushed
it much farther than smedia intended it to be - even smedia is amazed at the
bus speeds we get to the glamo - they have never seen it so fast.

glamo turned up primarily for 2 reasons.

1. we added wifi - and we just didn't have any other (good) interfaces (we can
sit and discuss spi all u like right now - but lets hold that thought). so we
needed to use up our sdio port for... wifi - but where will we stick the actual
sd card? glamo came with its own sd interface - bonus, so we get that back
again.

2. refresh. we run a vga screen. 640x480x70x2 - 41mb/sec ... JUST to refresh
the screen. we lost 41mb/sec of memory bandwidth just to keep the screen
displaying on the gta01. vga was by far pushing what the soc can do. literally
that is a huge amount of the bandwidth we had left (as its reads only and we
clock @ 100mhz for the bus clock on the gta02, it's be about 20% of memory
bandwidth gone). the glamo removes that drain and gives u back bandwidth... but
at another cost - the glamo's own bus and the extra work to write acceleration
to keep as much on the glamo as possible. we definitely don't do everything we
can on the glamo - but there is only so much time and development effort to go
around. as such we only really knew what the glamo was like once we had it
going reasonably, and by then - it's too late. glamo is in. it's not going away
as there just is no alternative.

so solutions could be: ditch vga, go to qvga, thus dropping mem bandwidth loss
to 10mb/sec (1/4 of what it was), and now have to drive only 1/2 the pixels in
software. end result would be much lower dpi, but much smoother and nicer
performance. but then go all the cries of "i must have vga!!!" (though i wonder
just how many people have good enough eyesight to really tell the difference).

if we want to live in the realms of such high resolution, imho, we need to look
very carefully at a high-end soc with good on-board graphics acceleration, but
that would have put the freerunner on hold as a product for a looong time. so
you would all still be waiting and waiting. no one would be talking of
production runs right now! :)

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resolution preferences??

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:50:43 +0200 Marc Bantle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:


> > quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since we'e
> > going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have to
> > fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
> > worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
> >
> >   
> Would that be 320x240 (QVGA [1]) or 480x320?

qvga is 320x240. wqvga... that's a whole world of resolutions (400x240,
432x240, 480x272, 480x320). :)

> I think the latter would be acceptable in terms of usability.
> OTOH it would also

but it's not a drop-in replacement as its widescreen. we c ould go for 2.8" vga
or 2.8" qvga. drop-in replacement. anything else mans new case/design etc. etc.

also remember just getting supply of a screen is hard. you also need it at a
decent physical size.

i'm asking the question if going down to a (relatively) low resolution screen
would be an ok compromise.

> - create extra maintenance cost for system and app themes

one way or another we will need to be able to do multiple resolutions in the
long-run.

> - narrow on-screen information for people with good eye-sight
> (granny won't be affected ;-)
> 
> Sofar I haven't suffered from lacking graphic speed on my
> GTA01. It seemed that waiting for UI feedback was mainly
> cause by other background processes (e.g. SD-read or such)
> My interest are standard smartphone and geo apps and for
> those I'd rather go for resolution.

again - it depends what you want to do. :) gta01 actually performance better in
many ways graphically :)

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:20:44 -0400 (EDT) Ken Young <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> 
> > quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)
> > since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer
> > pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if
> > the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
> 
> Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on
> future OM phones.   The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and
> Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which
> is better than what you find on a typical smart phone.

you haven't been to japan lately. a whole host of their phones are 834x480...
in 3.2" screens! totally nuts!

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Hardware Block Diagram

[BrendaWang]

Here is the detail spec of GTA02
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_GTA02_Hardware

Dale Schumacher 提到:
>
> I've done several searches on the wiki and I can't seem to find any 
> block diagram of the Freerunner hardware. Is there any such thing? It 
> would sure help to clarify how all this stuff is connected.
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Andy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED] >
> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:29:36 +0100
> Subject: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo 
>
> ...
>
> We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
> You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now
> via the
> Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it. WIFI is hooked to
> the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.
>
> | If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and
> why can't
> | DMA be used to copy data to it?
>
> DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did
> something with
> it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.
>
> The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use,
> but it
> has a bunch of timing constraints. (There is a synchronous burst bus
> mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
> CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)
>
>
> 
>
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San Diego and LA group sales

[Kosa]

Hi guys,

Well, as some of you know I'm from México,
and I'm not being very succesfull about
making a group to buy a 10 pack. I'm sure
some of my friends will buy a Freerunner
when I show them what we can do with it,
but right now I almost alone here.

I was wondering if we could join LA, San
Diego groups and myself, wich right now
makes 3 + 5 + 2, as I'm willing to buy two
of them. That would make a 10 pack already.

I have a friend living in Tijuana and he
might go to San Diego to pick them up.He's
coming to the Mexico City, where I live, on
June 23th and it would be great if the store
opens before that, but if it doesn't we
might find a way to make this work.

Thanks for even considering this.

And thank you all for making this waiting as
fun and interesting as it has been. I'm not
sure about the words to use, but I just wanna
let you know that I've smiled (of joy) a lot
of times reading your posts. Some of them
have been with me for days and weeks. Some
of the things I've read here has surpiresed
me as very few things before.


Thank you very very very much.

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

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Boulder Colorado group sale

[Vinc Duran]

Hello,
If you're in the Boulder, Colorado area consider joining our group. We're up
to five buyers. We may join forces with Tuscon, AZ. Please
contact me or add your name to
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GroupSales#Boulder.
I can make the purchase and do local delivery.
Vinc
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Re: USB connectors on FreeRunner & Hostmode

[Joachim Steiger]

Jeremiah Flerchinger wrote:
> It's my understanding that the SC32442B in the FreeRunner has a host
> controller that can support 2 peripherals (I found a link to the manual
> today & updated in the wiki).  Is there just the 1 external connector or
> are there additional pins or connectors internal to the FreeRunner that
> can be easily used to connect a second peripheral device?

its used for bluetooth.

its connected via a flexible pcb and fixed on top of the soc-shielding.
the flexible part the wraps around the mainpcb and connects to it from
the lcm side.

see http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/a/a4/Gta02a5_pcba_ps.JPG

the connector labeled with 'H-BTFPC01'

since usb is kinda 'point to point' you could/must add a hub to keep bt
working.

kind regards

-- 

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[W.Kenworthy]

As I have short, fat fingers stylii are are a neccessay evil - I find
fingers on most smart phones a pain.

The only evilness my stylii have is a propensity to hide when they are
really needed! - they are so so much faster than my fingers on a treo650
for instance :)  And trying to use the dialler is almost impossible with
my fingers.

This is something I cant see on the freerunner so I presume it does not
have a built in stylus/stylus house?

Billk



and becauseOn Thu, 2008-06-05 at 17:04 +0100, Stroller wrote:
> On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
> 
> > Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
> > to hold a stylus?
> 
> Nooo!
> 
> Stylii are EVIL!
> 
> If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for  
> that app on my mobile phone!
> 
> vi FTW!
> 
> Stroller.
> 
> 
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Re: USA, East coast groupe order

[Paul Buede]

Count me in. 

Feydreva wrote:
> It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in
> New york.
>
> New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?
>
> I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the
> phone in VA.
>
> Philippe
>
>
> 
>
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Taylor]

Lally Singh wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   
>> On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because
>> it is open.
>> 
>
> Open's great.  But Open+Powerful would also be nice.  I can't be the
> only one itching to use a GPU as a parallel coprocessor on this list.
> *sigh* so far it's only CUDA (AFAIK) that's even touching mobile
> devices.  Man I wish we had a handspring-type connector and some
> little modules for this kind of stuff.
>
>   
Well, why don't we FIRST help them make this a  smashing success of such 
proporitions that it will make manufacturers sit up and take notice?

Everyone has seen what the EEEPC has done, and now everyone and their 
dog now have a subnotebook with a linux distro on it in the span of 
what, 8months or so?  Hell, Acer of all companies just announced a 
majour Linux push on their laptops .. THE LAST company on the face of 
the planet I expected to do so.

AMD opened up the ATI gpu spec sheet recently - I have no idea if ATI 
has any inclination to get into making gpus for these sorts of devices, 
but if they did we potentially have one very real manufacturer that 
already drinks the coolaid that could potentially step in and fill the 
need if it can be demonstrated that the open platform is the way to go.

I appreciate what everyone is saying, but the success of the moko isn't 
only dependent on the manufacturer doing their best to get as powerfull 
a device out as possible, it depends on us early adopters having vision 
to see what this is, why it is SO IMPORTANT and help build buzz around 
it.  Mokos success is our success which is success for freedom - one 
device and one model at a time. 

I just think there is a danger to focusing on the negatives instead of 
positives here in terms of buzz - nothing is EVER perfect in any way so 
its a matter of seeing the glass as half full. 

- Rob

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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Lally Singh]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:25 PM, Joerg Reisenweber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am Do  5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh:
>> AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
>> onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
>> for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
>> satellite triangulation.
>
> It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell the
> receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all
> possible "channels" and "download" the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem and
> alm in uBlox paper.
>
> [1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference
> receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in
> sub-meter accuracy.
>
> Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just after
> typing the above.

Ah, my mistake.  I was hoping for more than just an almanac/ephem
upload.  I'm a lot less excited now.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Joerg Reisenweber]

Am Do  5. Juni 2008 schrieb Lally Singh:
> AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
> onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
> for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
> satellite triangulation.

It's about reducing TTFF, not increasing accuracy [1]. Basically you tell the 
receiver which sats it should expect, so it doesn't have to check all 
possible "channels" and "download" the data from sat (AFAIK). See ephem and 
alm in uBlox paper.

[1] Increasing accuracy is differential-GPS, where you have a reference 
receiver at known position, so you can tell pos of 2nd relative to ref in 
sub-meter accuracy.

Also see: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS which I found just after 
typing the above.

/j


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USB connectors on FreeRunner & Hostmode

[Jeremiah Flerchinger]

It's my understanding that the SC32442B in the FreeRunner has a host
controller that can support 2 peripherals (I found a link to the manual
today & updated in the wiki).  Is there just the 1 external connector or
are there additional pins or connectors internal to the FreeRunner that
can be easily used to connect a second peripheral device?




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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Lally Singh]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Flemming Richter Mikkelsen
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because
> it is open.

Open's great.  But Open+Powerful would also be nice.  I can't be the
only one itching to use a GPU as a parallel coprocessor on this list.
*sigh* so far it's only CUDA (AFAIK) that's even touching mobile
devices.  Man I wish we had a handspring-type connector and some
little modules for this kind of stuff.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Feydreva]

a stylus is a another thing to loose... I do NOT want to be Dependant on a
stylus...

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On 5 Jun 2008, at 18:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> > On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
> >> On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
> >>> Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
> >>> to hold a stylus?
> >>
> >> Nooo!
> >>
> >> Stylii are EVIL!
> >>
> >> If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
> >> that app on my mobile phone!
> >
> > A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application
> > type and
> > physical display size.
> >
> > That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-
> > compatible (we
> > also hate stylii),
>
> I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be
> finger-compatible, but that "ported" applications are not sure to be
> optimised for finger use.
>
> > _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
> > who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to
> > operate
> > with a stylus.
>
> If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that
> doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an
> admission of defeat.
>
> Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -
> going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the "core
> distro" and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers
> of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile
> Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,
> but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely
> to be finger-capable.
>
> Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, "oh, fingers
> don't matter".
>
> There are a dozen "smartphones" out there that I can buy now with
> tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only
> by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number
> pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub,
> or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because
> people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is
> an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will
> meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that
> combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps
> on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes
> the device less accessible.
>
> Stroller.
>
>
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Re: USA, East coast groupe order

[Feydreva]

Hum.. I was just expecting one of the NY guy to send it by mail ...
Even if the Week end in new york seems appealing :)

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 4:14 PM, Lally Singh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Feydreva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New
> > york.
> >
> > New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?
> >
> > I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone
> in
> > VA.
> >
> > Philippe
>
> Indeed.  I'm in southwest va for school, but my family's right outside
> DC.  A NY trip sounds fun.  Maybe we can ship to NY, then a few of us
> can go up to NY for a weekend of good drinking & OM fun?
>
>
> --
> H. Lally Singh
> Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
> Virginia Tech
>
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Flemming Richter Mikkelsen]

On 6/5/08, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:05:47 Mark wrote:
> > Robert Schuster theBohemian at gmx.net wrote on Tue Jun 3 18:10:18 CEST
> > 2008
> >
> > >Hi.
> > >
> > >flexd schrieb:
> > >> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
> > >>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh"  > >>> gmail.com> babbled:
> > >>>
> > >>> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take
> > >>> an interest :)
> > >>
> > >> To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
> > >> not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
> > >> couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
> > >>There are many reasons to have FOSS drivers. The ability for non-kernel
> > >>non-gfx people to change them is very low priority. But the kernel and
> > >>gfx people care much more.
> > >>
> > >> Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
> > >> love it!
> > >
> > >Yeah and for this a free/open driver is a precondition.
> > >
> > >Regards
> > >Robert
> >
> > If that were true, the Neo/Freerunner wouldn't exist. It's quite
> > obvious that for the foreseeable future some compromises are
> > unavoidable if you want a usable, worthwhile device.
>
> Not at all obvious to me.
>
> :M:

I agree with Michael. The only reason I want a Freerunner, is because
it is open.

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

On Thursday 05 June 2008 23:14:41 Stroller wrote:
> On 5 Jun 2008, at 18:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> > On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
> >> On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
> >>> Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
> >>> to hold a stylus?
> >>
> >> Nooo!
> >>
> >> Stylii are EVIL!
> >>
> >> If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
> >> that app on my mobile phone!
> >
> > A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application
> > type and
> > physical display size.
> >
> > That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-
> > compatible (we
> > also hate stylii),
>
> I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be
> finger-compatible, but that "ported" applications are not sure to be
> optimised for finger use.

Yes, that's what I wanted to express with the double negation.

> > _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
> > who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to
> > operate
> > with a stylus.
>
> If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that
> doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an
> admission of defeat.

Of course, we dream about beautiful consistent interfaces. The same dream that 
the Linux desktop world is dreaming, alas it didn't happen in the last couple 
of decades.

The Openmoko dream is also about emporing users to realize _their_ ideas of 
applications. If these require a stylus, not including a compartment for one 
is counterproductive.

> Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -
> going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the "core
> distro" and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers
> of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile
> Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,
> but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely
> to be finger-capable.
>
> Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, "oh, fingers
> don't matter".

I guess we just disagree here.

> Enable anyone to install extra apps
> on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes
> the device less accessible.

Show me a finger-sized on-screen keyboard for a terminal application where you 
don't have to switch between dozens of layouts to get to the full set of 
characters. Then we can talk again.

:M:

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Re: London Groupsales

[Ben Fleming-Williams]

Andy Selby wrote:
> I was going to sign up with the London groupbuy, but nobody has
> asserted themselves to be the main purchaser.
>   
I'd be willing to do this, with suitable safeguards of course. However, 
I'm number 11 on the list of (currently) 14, so we'd have to work out 
who actually gets one somehow. Might have to be restricted to those who 
can actually come into London in person.

I'm aware that I'm far from notable, and therefore liable to abscond at 
the drop of a stylus. So I'll email round over the weekend and see 
whether 9 are willing to take the risk (and what safeguards we can put 
in place on both sides).

Cheers,

Ben

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Re: keyboard openmoko-qtopia-x11-image

[Richard Reichenbacher]

Flick the screen up or down.
On Jun 5, 2008, at 2:51 PM, Michael wrote:

> hi all,
>
> i spent some times to search how can change the virtual keyboard
> (openmoko-qtopia-x11-image) from letters to numerical  
> classification. but i
> dont find it :(
>
> is it possible to change?
> how i can change this?
>
> michael
>
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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Lally Singh]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:14 PM, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-
>> compatible (we
>> also hate stylii),
>
> I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be
> finger-compatible, but that "ported" applications are not sure to be
> optimised for finger use.
>
>> _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
>> who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to
>> operate
>> with a stylus.
>
> If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that
> doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an
> admission of defeat.
>
> Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -
> going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the "core
> distro" and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers
> of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile
> Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,
> but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely
> to be finger-capable.
>
> Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, "oh, fingers
> don't matter".
>
> There are a dozen "smartphones" out there that I can buy now with
> tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only
> by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number
> pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub,
> or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because
> people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is
> an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will
> meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that
> combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps
> on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes
> the device less accessible.
>

I'm no fan of the "You can only have it my way, not your way, and not
both" idea.  Especially for open devices.

But, for the topic at hand:  My Treo 650 has a stylus, and I pull it
out for certain apps (Bejeweled and several other games come to mind).
 My day-to-day applications don't require one at all.

Certain mobile apps are worth pulling out a stylus for, and they're
better for it.

There's no need to ban an input device in fear of abuse on an open
system. Any decent app that people like, that mistakenly requires a
stylus, will get patched pretty quick.

-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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keyboard openmoko-qtopia-x11-image

[Michael]

hi all,

i spent some times to search how can change the virtual keyboard 
(openmoko-qtopia-x11-image) from letters to numerical classification. but i 
dont find it :( 

is it possible to change?
how i can change this?

michael

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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Lally Singh]

A quick look on google says that GPS is required for all cell phones
(well, E911 requires that 911 calls from cell phones also get the
coordinates, and operators didn't want to change all their towers, so
they started requiring their phones to have GPS).  Sadly, most phones
don't allow application access to that data, perhaps due to some
cost-saving measures (like stripping down the correlator, etc).

AFAIK, the AGPS allows you to upload additional information into the
onboard correlator (the CPU that does the actual location calculations
for GPS) to enhance the accuracy over what you get with simple
satellite triangulation.

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Tyrell Berry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm sorry if this question is completely ignorant, but I am always seeking
> understanding, and my previous understanding is inconsistant with the
> discussion here.
>
> I had originally believed 2 things.  First, that AGPS was required by law in
> all US cell phones (Possibly elsewhere).  And second, I had believed
> that AGPS was simply GPS with "assistence" from triangulating off of the GSM
> towers as well.  Meaning, I thought AGPS was a combination of satallite GPS
> and the sort of triangulation Google Maps does in the iPhone.
>
> Further, I thought I read a comment somewhere, maybe a year ago, maybe
> more, (And I can't find the reference now) to the effect of "because the neo
> is required to have an AGPS chip, we will be giving the user access."
>
> And so I guess my question is, is it legal to operate the Neo without AGPS?
> And is there more (Or less) functionality coming from the assist portion of
> the AGPS?
>
> In all fairness, I have been confused before, and I will be confused again.
> I hope my ignorance hasn't opened up a larger can of worms...  Thank you in
> advance for your response.
> ___
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>
>



-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko

[Flyin_bbb8]

So wouldn't it be a main problem if we change the main applications like the
Dialer, the contacts etc? for example from GTK to Qtopia? other way
round or anything else?
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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Stroller]

On 5 Jun 2008, at 18:46, Michael 'Mickey' Lauer wrote:
> On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
>> On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
>>> Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
>>> to hold a stylus?
>>
>> Nooo!
>>
>> Stylii are EVIL!
>>
>> If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
>> that app on my mobile phone!
>
> A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application  
> type and
> physical display size.
>
> That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger- 
> compatible (we
> also hate stylii),

I think what you're saying there is that 1st-party apps will be  
finger-compatible, but that "ported" applications are not sure to be  
optimised for finger use.

> _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people
> who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to  
> operate
> with a stylus.

If the Openmoko dream is a beautiful, consistent interface that  
doesn't need a stylus, then including a slot for one is kinda an  
admission of defeat.

Surely most end-users are - in the long-term future of Openmoko -  
going to use mostly the preinstalled applications, or the "core  
distro" and only add one or two extra applications. Sure, developers  
of those additional apps are going to need stylii, as they compile  
Thunderbird   for ARM architecture and the buttons are really tiny,  
but the aim of applications coming-on-board to Openmoko should surely  
to be finger-capable.

Including a stylus holder just allows developers to say, "oh, fingers  
don't matter".

There are a dozen "smartphones" out there that I can buy now with  
tiny little touchscreens that need a stylus, but these are used only  
by geeks. The majority of people buy still buy phones with a number  
pad and some kind of navigating aid (a tiny wheel, or joystick nub,  
or up-down-left-right arrow buttons). Why is this? Probably because  
people like using their fingers to access their phone. I know this is  
an old, and perhaps divisive, debate, where never the twain will  
meet, but Openmoko has a great opportunity here to make a phone that  
combines power with ease-of-use. Enable anyone to install extra apps  
on their phone, and *anyone* to use it. A fiddly stylus just makes  
the device less accessible.

Stroller.


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Re: USA, East coast groupe order

[Lally Singh]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:46 PM, Feydreva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New
> york.
>
> New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?
>
> I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone in
> VA.
>
> Philippe

Indeed.  I'm in southwest va for school, but my family's right outside
DC.  A NY trip sounds fun.  Maybe we can ship to NY, then a few of us
can go up to NY for a weekend of good drinking & OM fun?


-- 
H. Lally Singh
Ph.D. Candidate, Computer Science
Virginia Tech

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[David Samblas Martinez]

Thanks, thanks to you all coreteam, fanboys, critical ones, wanabees and geeks 
in general, and any other kind of entity thanks you all to make it posible.

--- El jue, 5/6/08, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió:

> De: steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Asunto: Cleared to start Mass production
> Para: "'List for Openmoko community discussion'" 
> 
> Fecha: jueves, 5 junio, 2008 5:12
> The latest update I have from the factory indicates that
> mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check
> stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> It will be available soon (within one month would be my
> guess).  Does anyone
> else have a better guess?
> 
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be
> able to ship to
> Pakistan.
> 
> Cheers
> Dennis
> 
> Masoom Alam wrote:
> > Hi every one,
> > 
> > I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the
> openmoko will be 
> > available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a
> lot of posts on 
> > the mailing list :)).
> > Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time,
> therefore asking 
> > this question.
> > 
> > Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book
> an order for me 
> > in advance now?
> > 
> > Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan,
> any 
> > recommendation in this regard?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > MM Alam
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
> --
> > --
> > 
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> - --
> - ---
> Dennis Wollersheim
> Lecturer, Health Information Management
> La Trobe University
> Bundoora Victoria 3086
> Room HS1:110
> (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
> 0414 529 454 (mobile)
> http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Alexander Frøyseth]

So the sale will begin soon then?
*Happy*

Alexander Frøyseth
steve skrev:

 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
  

Hi every one,

I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
the mailing list :)).
Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
this question.


Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
in advance now?


Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
recommendation in this regard?


Regards,
MM Alam




--
--

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La Trobe University
Bundoora Victoria 3086
Room HS1:110
(03) 9479 1763 (bh)
0414 529 454 (mobile)
http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Pietro "m0nt0" Montorfano]

Ilja O. ha scritto:
> I can see death looking carefully at my piggy bank.
> 
>

Wonderful news and hey i'm worried about your piggy bank, please please 
don't kill it!!! :D

Cya!

Pietro

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[steffen]

 > The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass
 > Production (that means running the SMT line without stopping to
 > check stuff every two seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

hmm...so where is GNU/Hurd? ... :D

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

kazaam wrote:
> Can someone here answer my question if at the moment v5 or v6 are produced?

According to the past thread v5 vs v6, they should be led-fixed-v5 
freerunners.

Anyway... Well, finally the GREAT news I was waiting for! :P

-- 
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Robert Taylor]

You know, you are jokingly commenting about this ...

... but i'm fully setting mine up as a mame emulator.

I think that while initially moko is positioned for the technically 
experienced, I believe we have a device here that can trully do 
something unique - become a portable general computing and gaming device.

Why not?  Why can't we have a moko with a fold out keyboard that can be 
pulled out and replaced with a game pad?

This could seriously set the device apart and interest a lot of homebrew 
and small game shop developers because the playing field is so fair and 
level on this platform.

I think gaming on the moko should be considered a VERY serious 
proposition indeed.

- Robert

Markus Bossert wrote:
> Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer 
> back in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And 
> gouraud shading.
>
> Mhmmm.
>
> If wine happens to run on the om? :-D
>
>


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Re: London Groupsales

[Andy Selby]

I was going to sign up with the London groupbuy, but nobody has
asserted themselves to be the main purchaser.

HantsLUG's  groupbuy is a more attractive prospect because it is
organized through an existing LUG and includes notable people such as
Andy Smith and Alan Pope so there's less chance of them running off
with your money.

Truebox's office's are within walking distance so I might get one from
them, but their domain was only registered in October 2007, I'm not
sure I'd trust them with an advance order, after all Steve mentioned
that they were not officially a reseller.

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Re: y-cable in action

[Mike Hodson]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 12:37 PM, Brad Midgley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I had to add the usbserial module too... iirc the ppp modules were
> already installed.

Just an FYI: make sure you have the AirPrime driver installed as well,
as the standard USBSerial does not have large enough data buffers for
high speed (greater than 60KB/s) data.

Mike

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Gianluigi]

Alle 17:12, giovedì 5 giugno 2008, steve ha scritto:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

So a switch is waiting only to be pushed on for make we mega - giga - tera - 
peta (and so on) happy?

-- 
Immortality consists largely of boredom.
-- Zefrem Cochrane, "Metamorphosis", stardate 3219.8

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USA, East coast groupe order

[Feydreva]

It seems we will never have 10 people in VA, nor in Maryland, nor in New
york.

New york group is already 5.  Why not all go in the NY group then ?

I was thinking joining the NY group, and get someone to send me the phone in
VA.

Philippe
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Markus Bossert]

Somehow I just remember how nice Tie Fighter looked on my computer back 
in 1994 - or 1996? With a full fledged VGA resolution. And gouraud shading.


Mhmmm.

If wine happens to run on the om? :-D



Ken Young schrieb:

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:


quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)
since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer
pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if
the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.


Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on
future OM phones.   The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and
Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which
is better than what you find on a typical smart phone.

Ken Young


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(o.o)
( X )
This is Bunny. Copy Bunny into your signature to help him on his way to 
world domination.


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London Groupsales

[Johan Badenhorst]

Hi there,

I was just wandering if there is any plan for how to go about the group
purchase for the London group (Half and half etc.)

Speed is the most important thing for me, so if the logistics are going to
mean that I don't get to play with my freerunner until mid August I might
seriously consider buying through Truebox, which is now saying that they
will start shipping Freerunners mid July for £272.  Now with conversion from
$$$.$$ to £££.££ things never make sense, so I am not sure whether this is a
good price or not (Logic means nothing when converting between currencies).

To summarise:
1.  Is there a plan for London groupsales?
2.  Any idea what the price per unit will be for groupsales in London (or,
will it be better than the Truebox price)?

And finally thanks for the good news!!  Mass Production:  Woohoo!
Ezuall
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Kosa]

I'm soo happy tp read that!!

Kosa

- Un mundo mejor es posible -

steve escribió:

   The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
  
  
Hi every one,

I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
the mailing list :)).
Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
this question.

Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
in advance now?

Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
recommendation in this regard?

Regards,
MM Alam




--
--

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- --
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La Trobe University
Bundoora Victoria 3086
Room HS1:110
(03) 9479 1763 (bh)
0414 529 454 (mobile)
http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
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Re: y-cable in action

[Brad Midgley]

Guys

> | I'm unable to test either of these with the verizon 3g/evdo usb
> | adapter... I don't have access to it this week :(

I did find one of these at the office... so it does work, woohoo. At
least with the AA supply. I'll test the AAA battery hub setup too when
I can.

I had to plug in the verizon adapter last or it wouldn't negotiate the
usb connection properly. It probably needs to see power and data
connections come online all at once.

I only now thought there might be times when you want to have neo
ignore the incoming power altogether to save the external battery some
life. I'll check to see if this is a soft setting.

> I did try this last week, I was able to see the mass storage device part
> of my 3G dongle OK, but not the "GSM serial" interfaces it exports
> despite fiddling with the kernel and adding the "option" driver

I had to add the usbserial module too... iirc the ppp modules were
already installed.

-- 
Brad

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Ilja O.]

I can see death looking carefully at my piggy bank.
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[ian douglas]

Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen wrote:
>   This is roughly the best news since hmm... i'm not entirely sure, since 
> some 
> really good news ;)

(insert political joke about the rumors of Hillary Clinton stepping down 
from the American presidential race on Friday...)

(and before that starts a flame war of any kind: I'm from Canada, but I 
live in the US and hate the 2-party system here)

Still, it's awesome news that the Freerunner is in mass production, w00t!

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Re: Hardware Block Diagram

[Jakob]

may be you're looking for something like this:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:SimpleComponentDiagram.jpg
well it's quite simplified, but i just found that on the wiki..

On 6/5/08, Dale Schumacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I've done several searches on the wiki and I can't seem to find any block
> diagram of the Freerunner hardware.  Is there any such thing?  It would sure
> help to clarify how all this stuff is connected.
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Andy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:29:36 +0100
>> Subject: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo
>
> ...
>
>> We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
>> You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now via the
>> Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it.  WIFI is hooked to
>> the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.
>>
>> | If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why
>> can't
>> | DMA be used to copy data to it?
>>
>> DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did something with
>> it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.
>>
>> The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
>> has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
>> mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
>> CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)
>>
>

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[simarillion]

Very good news, finally another milestone is done ;o)

Thank you Steve

Am Donnerstag 05 Juni 2008 17:12:42 schrieb steve:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
>
> It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does
> anyone else have a better guess?
>
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
> Pakistan.
>
> Cheers
> Dennis
>
> Masoom Alam wrote:
> > Hi every one,
> >
> > I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
> > available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
> > the mailing list :)).
> > Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
> > this question.
> >
> > Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
> > in advance now?
> >
> > Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
> > recommendation in this regard?
> >
> > Regards,
> > MM Alam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

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Congratulations! Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[W. B. Kranendonk]

Way to go! Please send best regards to all who have
made it possible so far :-))

Kind regards,

Boudewijn


--- steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates
> that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to
> check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> It will be available soon (within one month would be
> my guess).  Does anyone
> else have a better guess?
> 
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they
> will be able to ship to
> Pakistan.
> 
> Cheers
> Dennis
> 
> Masoom Alam wrote:
> > Hi every one,
> > 
> > I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of
> the openmoko will be 
> > available (seems a stupid question, as we can see
> a lot of posts on 
> > the mailing list :)).
> > Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this
> time, therefore asking 
> > this question.
> > 
> > Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to
> book an order for me 
> > in advance now?
> > 
> > Plus, I want to ship the latest version to
> Pakistan, any 
> > recommendation in this regard?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > MM Alam
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> >
>
--
> > --
> > 
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> >
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> - --
> - ---
> Dennis Wollersheim
> Lecturer, Health Information Management
> La Trobe University
> Bundoora Victoria 3086
> Room HS1:110
> (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
> 0414 529 454 (mobile)
> http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
> - ---
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla -
> http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
>
iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF
> E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck=
> =GOB0
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
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> 
> 
> ___
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> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 



  

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:05:47 Mark wrote:
> Robert Schuster theBohemian at gmx.net wrote on Tue Jun 3 18:10:18 CEST
> 2008
>
> >Hi.
> >
> >flexd schrieb:
> >> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
> >>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh"  >>> gmail.com> babbled:
> >>>
> >>> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take
> >>> an interest :)
> >>
> >> To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
> >> not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
> >> couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
> >>There are many reasons to have FOSS drivers. The ability for non-kernel
> >>non-gfx people to change them is very low priority. But the kernel and
> >>gfx people care much more.
> >>
> >> Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
> >> love it!
> >
> >Yeah and for this a free/open driver is a precondition.
> >
> >Regards
> >Robert
>
> If that were true, the Neo/Freerunner wouldn't exist. It's quite
> obvious that for the foreseeable future some compromises are
> unavoidable if you want a usable, worthwhile device.

Not at all obvious to me.

:M:

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Michael 'Mickey' Lauer]

On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:04:32 Stroller wrote:
> On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:
> > Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
> > to hold a stylus?
>
> Nooo!
>
> Stylii are EVIL!
>
> If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for
> that app on my mobile phone!

A stylus is inevitable given a certain combination of application type and 
physical display size.

That doesn't mean that we will not write all our apps finger-compatible (we 
also hate stylii), _but_ being an open device, we should not lock out people 
who _need_ to have lots of tiny stuff on their screen hence need to operate 
with a stylus.

:M:

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[kazaam]

Can someone here answer my question if at the moment v5 or v6 are produced?

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RE: Cleared to start Mass production

[Staley, Daniel L]

That's the best news I've heard in months!

Thanks Steve!
-Dan Staley


From: steve [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 11:12 AM
To: 'List for Openmoko community discussion'
Subject: Cleared to start Mass production

 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
> Hi every one,
>
> I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
> available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
> the mailing list :)).
> Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
> this question.
>
> Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
> in advance now?
>
> Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
> recommendation in this regard?
>
> Regards,
> MM Alam
>
>
>
>
> --
> --
>
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

- --
- ---
Dennis Wollersheim
Lecturer, Health Information Management
La Trobe University
Bundoora Victoria 3086
Room HS1:110
(03) 9479 1763 (bh)
0414 529 454 (mobile)
http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
- ---
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF
E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck=
=GOB0
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Kevin Dean]

Excellent! Thanks for the update!

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
> else have a better guess?
>
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
> Pakistan.
>
> Cheers
> Dennis
>
> Masoom Alam wrote:
>> Hi every one,
>>
>> I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
>> available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
>> the mailing list :)).
>> Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
>> this question.
>>
>> Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
>> in advance now?
>>
>> Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
>> recommendation in this regard?
>>
>> Regards,
>> MM Alam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>>
>> ___
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
> - --
> - ---
> Dennis Wollersheim
> Lecturer, Health Information Management
> La Trobe University
> Bundoora Victoria 3086
> Room HS1:110
> (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
> 0414 529 454 (mobile)
> http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
> - ---
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF
> E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck=
> =GOB0
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
> ___
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> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
> ___
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> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Sebastian Billaudelle]

Wow!

I can't believe it;-)

Thanks!

Am Donnerstag, den 05.06.2008, 08:12 -0700 schrieb steve:

> The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
> else have a better guess?
> 
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
> Pakistan.
> 
> Cheers
> Dennis
> 
> Masoom Alam wrote:
> > Hi every one,
> > 
> > I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
> > available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
> > the mailing list :)).
> > Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
> > this question.
> > 
> > Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
> > in advance now?
> > 
> > Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
> > recommendation in this regard?
> > 
> > Regards,
> > MM Alam
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > --
> > 
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> - --
> - ---
> Dennis Wollersheim
> Lecturer, Health Information Management
> La Trobe University
> Bundoora Victoria 3086
> Room HS1:110
> (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
> 0414 529 454 (mobile)
> http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
> - ---
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
> 
> iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF
> E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck=
> =GOB0
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
> 
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
> 
> 
> ___
> Openmoko community mailing list
> community@lists.openmoko.org
> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community

Please do not send me any Microsoft Office documents - I won't accept
them!
See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html for more
information!

Sorry!


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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Dan Leinir Turthra Jensen]

Thursday 05 June 2008 steve wrote:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
>

  This is roughly the best news since hmm... i'm not entirely sure, since some 
really good news ;)

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
>
> It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does
> anyone else have a better guess?
>
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
> Pakistan.
>
> Cheers
> Dennis
>
> Masoom Alam wrote:
> > Hi every one,
> >
> > I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
> > available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
> > the mailing list :)).
> > Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
> > this question.
> >
> > Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
> > in advance now?
> >
> > Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
> > recommendation in this regard?
> >
> > Regards,
> > MM Alam
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > --
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community


-- 
..Dan // Leinir..
http://www.leinir.dk/

  Co-
existence
  or no
existence

  - Piet Hein

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production #2

[Roland Häder]

Hi,

On Thursday, 5. June 2008, steve wrote:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

Is this the mail I have been waiting for? :D

Second try without signature.

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Re: GSoC project status: Speech Recognition facility in open moko

[Esben Stien]

"saurabh gupta" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I am saurabh gupta, working on speech recognition facility in open
> moko

All fine and dandy, but are you also looking at sphinx?

-- 
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 http://www. s tn m
  irc://irc.  b  -  i  .   e/%23contact
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Roland Häder]

Hi,

On Thursday, 5. June 2008, steve wrote:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.

Is this the mail I have waited for? :D

-- 
(GNU) PGP ID: 0x4D385570


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Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller]

Am 05.06.2008 um 17:12 schrieb steve:

> Ya, there are also ugly taxes on FM last time I looked. ( in EU)

AFAIK 14 % import duties for "broadcast receivers". Therefore some  
companies split production between basic device + receiver module  
(china) and final assembly in europe. Then, the 14% are charged on  
import of the receiver modules only and not for the complete device.

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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Antoine Reid]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
>


Wonderful ! :)

-- 
Antoine Reid
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Federico Lorenzi]

Yay at last! So when does your psuedorandom date generator say they
will be ready for shipping :)

Also, in a previous email you mentioned pickups, I assume this means
we would be able to go Fremont, CA, and actually fetch a FreeRunner,
or is it only for larger orders?

Cheers,
Federico

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 5:12 PM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
> Wollersheim
> Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
> To: List for Openmoko community discussion
> Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
> else have a better guess?
>
> You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
> Pakistan.
>
> Cheers
> Dennis
>
> Masoom Alam wrote:
>> Hi every one,
>>
>> I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be
>> available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on
>> the mailing list :)).
>> Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking
>> this question.
>>
>> Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me
>> in advance now?
>>
>> Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any
>> recommendation in this regard?
>>
>> Regards,
>> MM Alam
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> --
>>
>> ___
>> Openmoko community mailing list
>> community@lists.openmoko.org
>> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
> - --
> - ---
> Dennis Wollersheim
> Lecturer, Health Information Management
> La Trobe University
> Bundoora Victoria 3086
> Room HS1:110
> (03) 9479 1763 (bh)
> 0414 529 454 (mobile)
> http://homepage.cs.latrobe.edu.au/dewoller
> - ---
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> Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org
>
> iD8DBQFIRMWF41ROt9TlFkoRAhFTAJ9DvMdVl2bbtGUHJFG2nR8Dde9mOgCg/KlF
> E4wU+XXesXAVFoo0dvnJLck=
> =GOB0
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[Tyrell Berry]

I'm sorry if this question is completely ignorant, but I am always seeking
understanding, and my previous understanding is inconsistant with the
discussion here.

I had originally believed 2 things.  First, that AGPS was required by law in
all US cell phones (Possibly elsewhere).  And second, I had believed
that AGPS was simply GPS with "assistence" from triangulating off of the GSM
towers as well.  Meaning, I thought AGPS was a combination of satallite GPS
and the sort of triangulation Google Maps does in the iPhone.

Further, I thought I read a comment somewhere, maybe a year ago, maybe
more, (And I can't find the reference now) to the effect of "because the neo
is required to have an AGPS chip, we will be giving the user access."

And so I guess my question is, is it legal to operate the Neo without AGPS?
And is there more (Or less) functionality coming from the assist portion of
the AGPS?

In all fairness, I have been confused before, and I will be confused again.
I hope my ignorance hasn't opened up a larger can of worms...  Thank you in
advance for your response.
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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[ian douglas]

... and there was much rejoicing!

steve wrote:
>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.


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Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Mark]

Robert Schuster theBohemian at gmx.net wrote on Tue Jun 3 18:10:18 CEST 2008
>
>Hi.
>
>flexd schrieb:
>> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) skrev:
>>> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:12:30 -0400 "Lally Singh"  
>>> babbled:
>>>
>>> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
>>> interest :)
>>>
>>
>> To be honest, (i myself do not really care if the drivers are open or
>> not, i do not have the require level of geekyness to change them :p) i
>> couldnt care less if the drivers are open or not.
>>There are many reasons to have FOSS drivers. The ability for non-kernel
>>non-gfx people to change them is very low priority. But the kernel and
>>gfx people care much more.
>>
>> Aslong as we/someone could run a opensource OS on it, such as OM, i'd
>> love it!
>Yeah and for this a free/open driver is a precondition.
>
>Regards
>Robert

If that were true, the Neo/Freerunner wouldn't exist. It's quite
obvious that for the foreseeable future some compromises are
unavoidable if you want a usable, worthwhile device.

Mark

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Re: GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Stroller]

On 5 Jun 2008, at 15:38, Ron K. Jeffries wrote:

> Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
> to hold a stylus?

Nooo!

Stylii are EVIL!

If I can't operate an app with my fingers, then there's no place for  
that app on my mobile phone!

vi FTW!

Stroller.


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Re: Cleared to start Mass production

[Dylan Semler]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 11:12 AM, steve <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
> that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
> seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.
>

: )


-- 
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Hardware Block Diagram

[Dale Schumacher]

I've done several searches on the wiki and I can't seem to find any block
diagram of the Freerunner hardware.  Is there any such thing?  It would sure
help to clarify how all this stuff is connected.


-- Forwarded message --
> From: Andy Green <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 09:29:36 +0100
> Subject: Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

...

> We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
> You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now via the
> Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it.  WIFI is hooked to
> the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.
>
> | If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why
> can't
> | DMA be used to copy data to it?
>
> DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did something with
> it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.
>
> The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
> has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
> mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
> CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)
>
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RE: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

[steve]

Ya, there are also ugly taxes on FM last time I looked. ( in EU) 

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joachim Steiger
Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 9:31 AM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Cc: Joerg Reisenweber
Subject: Re: Question about future devices (GTA03,04)

Stroller wrote:
> Yeah, but you're the guys who can just slip the odd extra chip into  
> the design without anyone else noticing.   ;)

don't think so ;)

> If questioned just tell management that Classic FM is required to 
> soothe the kernel penguins.

well.. it adds power, space and cost and complexity to the whole thing.
and quite ugly rf validation and eventually even certification requirements
depending on where you plan to sell it i guess ;)

it was already discussed in detail last year i think.

to sum it up: OM does know that _some_ people want a fm radio.
same as for electronic (magnetic) compass, a rfid transceiver/nfc stuff,
embedded micro-beamers, fm transmitters, dvb-t/h receivers, dab/drm
receivers etc. or a camera.
others again do not want some parts with a reason (price, size, usage
constraints (some companies forbid entering with a cameraphone)

we just need to make the best out of it for all involved parties:
* om needs to build and sell hardware
* the community wants to get a device which is not vaporvare and not in
development forever.

so we need to find a nice compromise and be careful what to add, in which
configuration and for which product to please us all (the community when it
comes to features and availability as well as price and size) and om in the
cause to survive by building real free and open designs.

not easy all the time, but i think it helps us all, if everybody knows that
its 'not that easy' to add some part just like that, but hard work.
to find components we can and want use, which are available and please om as
well as the community due to price, availability, features and size AND open
documentations or drivers is sometimes very time consuming.

as for fm.. its kinda borderline for me, (personally, not that my opinion
counts more than yours) since i never listen to fm radio anymore.
its more important to have the 3.5 mm jack for reasonable headphones, and a
solid and good quality audio electronics in front of that, for me.
lets all thank joerg, that he has already taken care of that ;) kudos.

regards


-- 

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Cleared to start Mass production

[steve]

 The latest update I have from the factory indicates that mass Production (
that means running the SMT line without stopping to check stuff every two
seconds) has been CLEARED TO START.






-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dennis
Wollersheim
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2008 9:16 PM
To: List for Openmoko community discussion
Subject: Re: OpenMOKO availbility

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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It will be available soon (within one month would be my guess).  Does anyone
else have a better guess?

You cannot book an order at present.  I reckon they will be able to ship to
Pakistan.

Cheers
Dennis

Masoom Alam wrote:
> Hi every one,
> 
> I wanted to ask, that when the latest version of the openmoko will be 
> available (seems a stupid question, as we can see a lot of posts on 
> the mailing list :)).
> Actually, I dont want to wait for one year this time, therefore asking 
> this question.
> 
> Plus, is there is any possiblity at the moment to book an order for me 
> in advance now?
> 
> Plus, I want to ship the latest version to Pakistan, any 
> recommendation in this regard?
> 
> Regards,
> MM Alam
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> --
> 
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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Dylan Semler]

On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 8:32 AM, rakshat hooja <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
>>  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
>>> we'e
>>> going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have
>>> to
>>> fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
>>> worth
>>> the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
> I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and
> the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the
> Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the
> Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When
> you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The
> N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
> reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
> tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
> the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)
>

I don't know, I have the opposite feeling.  Screen real estate is /very/
important to me and the VGA screen is one of the only hardware features of
the Neos that separate it from most other smart phones.  It's probably my
favorite hardware feature and I'm definitely willing to pay for it.  Web
browsing on my current smart phone with a QVGA screen is very annoying; I'm
hoping the VGA of the Freerunner will be enough of an improvement to browse
more easily.

If you are suggesting that the Neo 1973 is harder to read because the
letters are smaller (which you may not be doing), in theory that can be
worked around in software.

You're points on the LCM are probably very good ones, though I've never
heard of LCM before.
-- 
Dylan

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http://dvzine.org
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Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Ken Young]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

> quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost)
> since we'e going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer
> pixels you have to fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if
> the speed of qvga is worth the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.

Please, please, please, please, please don't drop to a QVGA LCD on
future OM phones.   The beautiful full VGA screens on the neo and
Freerunner are just about the only piece of hardware they have which
is better than what you find on a typical smart phone.

Ken Young


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Re: QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

On Thursday 05 June 2008 14:32:14 rakshat hooja wrote:

> The N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
> reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
> tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
> the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)

My vote is squarely with VGA preferably WVGA, the web is just barely useable 
on VGA and not much use at all on QVGA.



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GTA03 case should incorporate stylus holder

[Ron K. Jeffries]

Can the revised case for GTA03 *please* be designed
to hold a stylus?

The Palm Treo 700p and similar provide good examples
re the stylus design and receptacle.

-- 
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http://www.retaggr.com/Card/RonKJeffries
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Re: OT: ajax image galleries

[Andy Powell]

On Thursday 05 June 2008 09:31, Joseph Reeves wrote:
> Yes, you're right, any site can redirect to anywhere else, but if that
> happens and I end up somewhere I don't want to be, I can blacklist
> both the original site and the target. I admit that this may be an
> exercise in futility, but at least it's possible.

True, but if it's a 0 day exploit it's too late. Your example was basically

1. set up a site with stuff people want to look at
2. wait for traffic to build up
3. Change content to 0 day exploit.

I can't see how any of this is tinyul's fault at all. It's not as if you can 
modify the URL you get from tinyurl to point somewhere else - you have to 
modify the content of the site. 

> My personal mail client, and the one I use at work, both handle long
> URLs fine. No need for tinyurl there.

That's great... but not all clients or mailing lists are equal - If you're a 
member of any Yahoo group this will be self evident.

> And no, I never advocated hotlinking to images.

You are correct, that was Chris.. apologies

> Joseph


-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat



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GPS <--> AGPS

[Yorick Matthys]

**
Matt said:
 
http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClient(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf

Cheers,

Matt

***

Scratch my previous question, I realise now that it was a stupid one :)
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GPS <--> AGPS

[Yorick Matthys]

**
Matt said:
 
http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClient(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf

Cheers,

Matt

***

I get the impression there is only informtion to have AGPS working with an 
internet connection. I was under the impression that AGPS would be possible 
over the GSM-network. Will this be implemented or is it impossible?

y
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Andy Green]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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Somebody in the thread at some point said:
| On Thursday 05 June 2008 10:29:36 Andy Green wrote:
|> The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
|> has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
|> mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
|> CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)
| What exactly do you mean by an async memory bus interface? Surely the bus
| has a clock to clock data in off the data bus?

Async busses use strobes like "chip select", "read" and so on instead of
an explicit clock.

| But it _should_ be an aweful lot faster than it currently is. I
understand the reasons
| why it's so slow, but these are hardware bugs. Surely SMedia are the
ones who should

When we figure it out we'll know.  It the meanwhile, it's OK.

|> However like I said when you hold the thing and use it, IMO it's
|> perfectly adequate.  The "August" Software Update ;-) has some cool
|> alpha and moving things going on that look nice, it's just not so bad as
|> you got the impression I believe.
|
| Have you watched the video which started this thread? Seen an iPhone
before?
| What about the latest Google android videos:
|
http://androidcommunity.com/first-live-images-of-fullscreen-android-demo-20080528/

I just jumped in to correct your wrong idea about graphic device
connectivity, not answer "is there a God?" :-)

- -Andy
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QVGA V/s VGA for GTA03 (was something about yummy CPU-GPU combos!)

[rakshat hooja]

>
>
>  quick question - would you prefer a qvga lcd (save a bit of cost) since
>> we'e
>> going to need to software-drive all graphics - the fewer pixels you have
>> to
>> fill, the better for speed. i'm really tossing up if the speed of qvga is
>> worth
>> the loss of resolution. i'm just not sure.
>>
>>
>>
>
I have a Sharp 903 with qvga, 2.4 inch, Nokia N95 with qvga, 2.4 inch and
the Neo 1973 with VGA, 2.8 inch. By far the best screen for reading is the
Sharp one. On closer examination you can see pixels which you dont on the
Neo but the display just feels better, crisper and better on the eyes. When
you view higher res photos the Neo display seems better but not by much. The
N95 is also good when you look at it on its own and one has no problems
reading anything but when kept next to the Neo 1973 and Sharp 903 one can
tell the display is not in the same league. (the Sharp is also visible in
the sun though I dont think its trans-reflective)

The point I am trying to make is that the quality of LCM being used matters
as much as qvga or vga. Qvga is sufficient for almost all needs on a mobile
phone size device and would be great if it provides cost and speed
improvements. But it has to be a really good quality QVGA.

Personally I love the resolution and form factor of the PSP Slim LCM and
would love to see something similar on GTA0X.

Rakshat
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Re: GPS <--> AGPS

[matt_hsu]

Brad Midgley wrote:
> Yorick
>
>   
>> Maybe I missed somehting, but to my knowlegde the AGPS is not yet working on
>> the Freerunner.
>> Is there any work being done to get AGPS working? Does anybody have an idea
>> if it will ever be implemented or not? And if it will be implemented, when
>> will it be ready?
>> 
>
> Len Chen sent a pdf to the list last month with gps comparisons. The
> last paragraph of his writeup seems to suggest that freerunner's
> implementation of the gps module lacks the ability to do agps.
>
>   

Hi all,

Here is the reference about AGPS implementation.

 
http://people.openmoko.org/matt_hsu/ImplementationAssistNowServerAndClient(GPS.G4-SW-05017-C).pdf

Cheers,

Matt


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Swiss Group-Order

[Gabriel Ambuehl]

Some time back (March or so) I had offered to organize a Freerunner group 
order for Switzerland. At the time, most people were expecting a late 
April/early May shipping date which would have fit my schedule pretty well. 

But as we all know, that date slipped; right now it looks like late June could 
be met.

Unfortunately, I will be abroad for a month starting late June so obviously I 
will not be able to relay any packages in that timeframe. I'm deeply sorry.


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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Tom Cooksey]

On Thursday 05 June 2008 10:29:36 Andy Green wrote:
> The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
> has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
> mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
> CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)
What exactly do you mean by an async memory bus interface? Surely the bus
has a clock to clock data in off the data bus? 

Are you saying that the CPU writes data out at a known frequency and the glamo 
clocks it in at the same frequancy with some UART-like clock sync? This sounds
very, very bad? 

> In addition, we currently slug the Glamo IO with quite heavy wait states
> to get stable operation; without it the Glamo acts weird in ways we
> never got to the bottom of.  A few weeks ago I experimented again with
> reducing these and saw all kinds of framebuffer corruption.  The Glamo
> has several processors in it sharing its internal DRAM (6 or so), I
> guess there is some stuff going on from that direction despite we hold
> the unused ones in reset in there.
> 
> So unless our understanding of that beastie evolves further than the
> datasheets, the current speed of it is what we have to work with.

But it _should_ be an aweful lot faster than it currently is. I understand the 
reasons 
why it's so slow, but these are hardware bugs. Surely SMedia are the ones who 
should 
be helping you try and fix those bugs? Or Samsung if it's the CPU. The only bit 
you've 
done is connect the CPU's bus lines to the Glamo's bus lines - I guess you do 
that with 
simple copper traces too. There doesn't seem to be a huge amount you can do 
differently? 

> However like I said when you hold the thing and use it, IMO it's
> perfectly adequate.  The "August" Software Update ;-) has some cool
> alpha and moving things going on that look nice, it's just not so bad as
> you got the impression I believe.

Have you watched the video which started this thread? Seen an iPhone before?
What about the latest Google android videos:
http://androidcommunity.com/first-live-images-of-fullscreen-android-demo-20080528/

I get so fustrated with people thinking that it's ok for OpenMoko to be worse 
than
everything else out there. Just because it's open source doesn't mean we can't 
make
something to thrash the pants off everything else graphicly.

To compete with iPhone, android and everything else which comes along, the 
OpenMoko
is going to need a programmable 3D pipeline, end of story. IMO, that means an 
OMAP3,
just like a pandora and just like the beagleboard. I guess FIC is tied to 
Samsung tho.




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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Tom Cooksey]

On Thursday 05 June 2008 11:29:10 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:33:58 +0200 Tom Cooksey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> babbled:
> 
> > On Wednesday 04 June 2008 21:56:56 Andy Green wrote:
> > > | IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake
> > > (Connecting it to a
> > > | shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
> > > 
> > > Huh what?  It's a 16-bit memory bus, maybe you mean 2^4 ;-)  When I
> > > actually use the thing I don't notice much sluggishness.  Your best bet
> > > is to eyeball one, I think you'll find it isn't the issue you think it is.
> > 
> > I thought it was connected to the (4-wire) SDIO bus?
> 
> it's on the memory bus, not sdio. a gfx chip on sdio would indeed be just 
> about
> the most stupid idea i have ever heard of and anyone doing that should be
> summarily executed with a blunt spoon! :)

Well... yeah, that's kindof the reason for the initial post! I must have 
misunderstood
previous posts as I was convinced the glamo was itself attached to the CPU's 
SDIO 
interface. You can understand where I was coming from now!

> > If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why can't
> > DMA be used to copy data to it?
> 
> dma can. it just is even slower than using the cpu. also the entire memory bus
> is locked up when doing a copy with cpu OR dma, so even if dma were the same
> speed as doing a copy with the cpu, we'd still have the cpu locked out of the
> memory bus while waiting for dma - so no gain anyway (as in all practice you
> will need the memory bus :)). actual tests found dma to be LESS than 1/2 the
> speed of doing a copy with the cpu. this is just a limitation of the SOC, and
> the glamo is just well... not fast at accepting read/write requests - the
> bandwidth is limited to about 7mb/sec for writes ( can't remember what reads
> are - but i think its symmetric).

Right. Shame the cpu doesn't have more cache so it has a better change of 
getting on
with something else while the DMA occurs.


Thanks for clearing things up. It's good to hear that the problem isn't because 
of
any particularly bad decision on OpenMoko's part. Renews my faith a little. :-)


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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

[Rahul Joshi]

 > Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
> it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
> think and the FreeRunner should be faster.

don't be so sure about that! :)

Any reason why you have doubts? To a common person, the performance b/w 1973
& FreeRunner should be BIG if not HUGE. (i'm only asking)

Rahul J


On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 2:24 PM, The Rasterman Carsten Haitzler <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 "Pietro \"m0nt0\" Montorfano"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
>
> > thomasg ha scritto:
> > > Hi list,
> > >
> > > there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the
> > > change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos,
> too.
> > > So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it
> > > behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
> > >
> > > I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1]
> > > (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
> > > It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely
> > > doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the
> > > softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look
> alike.
> > > Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16
> > > MB, ~3.5 min)
> > > I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500
> > > kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
> > > Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
> > >
> > > P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
> >
> > Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU,
> > it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i
> > think and the FreeRunner should be faster.
>
> don't be so sure about that! :)
>
> > I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us
> > keep the freerunner in our hands :D
> >
> > Cya!!
> >
> > Pietro
> >
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>
> --
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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Marc Bantle]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> On Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:59:35 +0200 Tom Cooksey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> babbled:
>
>   
>> On Tuesday 03 June 2008 09:06:35 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
>> 
>>> the day nvidia comes with open drivers for this... we can begin to take an
>>> interest :)
>>>   
>> Sorry, just how open is the current glamo driver exactly?
>> 
>
> the driver is open. the chip specs so you can go write your own driver from
> scratch are only available under nda though :(.
>
>   
>> IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake (Connecting
>> it to a shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
>> 
>
> i definitely can't argue here. :) i know when i turned up glamo was already 
> in.
> my guess after some quick poking and a lot of spec doc reading was that given
> full drivers - we'd give or take have about the same performance as pure
> software only drivers (for 2d) in a dumb framebuffer - i.e. - what gta01 has.
> the exception might be opengl (3d) there where software won't be able to 
> render
> and keep up with the glamo, but 3d comes with a lot of caveats on the glamo,
> like max 256x256 textures. no render-to-texture (so intermediate buffers 
> are...
> well.. a pain), and the unhappiest is the max 3d buffer size (target for
> rendering) of 511x511 - so as such we can't manage fullscreen 3d @vga res. 
> we'd
> always have to go down to something like qvga. 
>
>   
>> OpenMoko insisted on having open source drivers, and the only hardware vendor
>> which would let them do it was SMedia. So we get this massively underpowered
>> graphics processor - but that's ok because OpenMoko can release the source
>> code to the driver! Except SMedia wont let OpenMoko realease any technical
>> info about the chip. So, in fact, the glamo driver can only be developed by
>> people employed by OpenMoko and only after they sign an NDA.
>> 
>
> well we can't release the docs smedia gave us. but we are allowed to talk 
> about
> the technical details all we like in public. THOSE docs that smedia wrote are
> theirs and we can't give them out. we are allowed to go write our own docs
> based on it - but that won't be a small document, and right now internally no
> one has the time to just sit down and write such a doc (as opposed to writing
> code).
>
>   
>> The Xglamo may be open source, but it is not, nor can it ever be, a community
>> project.
>> 
>
> it can - partially, but only in as far as any chip specs that are apparent in
> the existing code.
>
>   
>> Now look at the other options OpenMoko could have gone with. Well, _the_
>> option of cource would be to have used a half-decent SoC, one with an
>> integrated GPU such as a Freescale i.MX or TI OMAP, even an XScale would have
>> been better. You'd then get a PowerVR GPU (same as used in the iPhone), which
>> already has Linux drivers. What's more, OpenMoko would get the source code
>> for the drivers, under NDA from Imagination Technologies. The only
>> restriction would be that OpenMoko couldn't release the source. But that's no
>> different to the glamo, given that only OpenMoko employees can work on it.
>> 
>
> again - we could have chosen much better soc's indeed, but as it stands right
> now that isn't happening. gta02 is basically a gta01 slightly improved. gta03
> will at this stage be a gta02 minus glamo (which simplifies things a lot and 
> at
> least for 2d stuff should get us an improvement).
>
>   
>> We would also have had a decent processor, one with a more up-to-date
>> instruction set than the nearly 10-year-old armv4t. So there may not have
>> been Cortex A8s around 2 years ago when GTA02 development began, but there
>> were plenty of options. Why on earth did OpenMoko stick with an aging CPU and
>> an almost useless GPU when there were so much better options? And please
>> don't say BOM, I refuse to believe the combined price of the 2442 and glamo
>> is cheaper than e.g. an i.MX31 or OMAP2420.
>> 
>
> because even before that the neo was inherited from an older project to do a
> windows-mobile phone... the hardware is based on an ancient product design.
>
>   
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> PS: Very sorry for the rant, I just had such high hopes for OpenMoko and am
>> just fustrated with the hardware design decisions.
>> 
>
> understood. i can't blame you. i've done my share of ranting too. but even
> internally the most i have managed to do, i think, is influence the glamo to
> vanish from the gta03, but otherwise we have what we have now (just a new 
> case,
> different battery, added a camera, a different gsm module).
>
> gta04 was looking good. the samsung 6400 as such is a nice soc. i've dug into
> the 2d gfx portion of the docs. it's a bit tricky to use, but much better than
> the glamo and much more powerful in the 2d department (u'll manage scaling
> and compositing even in argb32 bit) nicely on that baby. it's memory bus was
> way better than gta02, and as it's graphics i

Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:33:58 +0200 Tom Cooksey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> On Wednesday 04 June 2008 21:56:56 Andy Green wrote:
> > | IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake
> > (Connecting it to a
> > | shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
> > 
> > Huh what?  It's a 16-bit memory bus, maybe you mean 2^4 ;-)  When I
> > actually use the thing I don't notice much sluggishness.  Your best bet
> > is to eyeball one, I think you'll find it isn't the issue you think it is.
> 
> I thought it was connected to the (4-wire) SDIO bus?

it's on the memory bus, not sdio. a gfx chip on sdio would indeed be just about
the most stupid idea i have ever heard of and anyone doing that should be
summarily executed with a blunt spoon! :)

> If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why can't
> DMA be used to copy data to it?

dma can. it just is even slower than using the cpu. also the entire memory bus
is locked up when doing a copy with cpu OR dma, so even if dma were the same
speed as doing a copy with the cpu, we'd still have the cpu locked out of the
memory bus while waiting for dma - so no gain anyway (as in all practice you
will need the memory bus :)). actual tests found dma to be LESS than 1/2 the
speed of doing a copy with the cpu. this is just a limitation of the SOC, and
the glamo is just well... not fast at accepting read/write requests - the
bandwidth is limited to about 7mb/sec for writes ( can't remember what reads
are - but i think its symmetric).

so a big performance bottleneck we have is transfers to/from glamo - it really
hobbles performance as it is a tiny straw we send data through. not to mention
sd-card IO data also shares this glamo bus... :) so don't go doing any heavy IO
on the SD card AND gfx... at the same time! :)

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 15:57:12 +1000 Lorn Potter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Wed, 04 Jun 2008 04:26:25 +0200 "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)"
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> > 
> >> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > And they use WINE to run android dev stuff on linux?  My god - that
> > beggars the imagination.
>  I think he's talking about other applications.  I think picasa uses wine.
> >>> and google earth
> >> No, Google Earth is a native Qt application... Only Picasa uses wine.
> > 
> > it is? you are right. its incredibly bad fonts and ugliness and general
> > attempt to look as much like win95 as possible had me fooled :) 
> 
> Then you need to set up your distro better. Qt is easily configurable. You
> can use qconfig to set Qt to use preferred fonts/style, etc.

luckily for me qconfig isn't on there :( kde apps look fine. i'm utterly unsure
how to get a "plain" qt app like google-earth to use kde's qt setup. :( but out
of the box it does look hopelessly ugly :(

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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 05 Jun 2008 07:35:23 +0200 "Pietro \"m0nt0\" Montorfano"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> thomasg ha scritto:
> > Hi list,
> > 
> > there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the 
> > change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too.
> > So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it 
> > behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
> > 
> > I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] 
> > (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
> > It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely 
> > doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the 
> > softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look alike.
> > Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 
> > MB, ~3.5 min)
> > I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 500 
> > kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
> > Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
> > 
> > P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
> 
> Good job for the video and hey openmoko people, GOOD JOB for the ASU, 
> it's really nice, quite slow on the neo 1973 but it can be optimized i 
> think and the FreeRunner should be faster.

don't be so sure about that! :)

> I'm s happy, please turn the mass production switch on and let us 
> keep the freerunner in our hands :D
> 
> Cya!!
> 
> Pietro
> 
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Re: OT: TinyURL

[Joseph Reeves]

I'm sorry, but this is a pretty ridiculous argument:

Company A releases a largely redundant service that does little more
than expose its users to a potential attack vector. In return, Company
A releases a second service to try improve the security of its first.

Why bother with either? My email client is pretty good; I'll continue
not clicking on tinyurls links.

Joseph



On 04/06/2008, Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>  On 4 Jun 2008, at 18:12, Joseph Reeves wrote:
>
> > ...
> > TinyURL on the other hand... Why would anyone ever use that? I never
> > click on links unless I know where they link to. Here's a plan for
> > abuse:
> >
> > 1: Discover browser 0-day exploit
> > 2: Put up a gallery of FreeRunner pictures on a website
> > 3: Point a tinyurl at the gallery
> > 4: Wait until everyone's linked to it and is clicking it
> > 5: Change gallery to 0-day exploit
> >
> > Or even easier:
> >
> > 1: Link to goatse.
> >
> > TinyURL takes all the best practice Internet guidlines you try and
> > teach people and ruins them all. Can't stand it.
> >
>
>  TinyURL itself protects you from this.
>
>  All you do is go to , click on the "enable
> previews" link and it sets a cookie on your PC. Thereafter, everytime you
> click on a TinyURL link it shows you first what website the link redirects
> to, and you then have to click again to make a "manual redirection".
>
>  Maybe your email client is perfect, and never has a problem with mangled
> URLs, but for the rest of us TinyURL is very useful.
>
>  Stroller.
>
>

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Re: OT: ajax image galleries

[Joseph Reeves]

Yes, you're right, any site can redirect to anywhere else, but if that
happens and I end up somewhere I don't want to be, I can blacklist
both the original site and the target. I admit that this may be an
exercise in futility, but at least it's possible.

My personal mail client, and the one I use at work, both handle long
URLs fine. No need for tinyurl there.

And no, I never advocated hotlinking to images.

Joseph



On 04/06/2008, Andy Powell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wednesday 04 June 2008 18:12, Joseph Reeves wrote:
>  > Disable javascript and it works much better. I use the NoScript FF
>  > extension.
>
>
> Best FF extension imho.
>
>
>  > TinyURL on the other hand... Why would anyone ever use that? I never
>  > click on links unless I know where they link to. Here's a plan for
>  > abuse:
>
>
> tinyurl is useful instead of typing in twattishly long urls which many sites
>  insist on using. Generally you don;t want to click on a link provided by
>  someone you don't know/trust. Not only that but if I use this url as an
>  example - look what your mail client / this mailing list does to it (break it
>  on wrap)
>
>  
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU&srp=dhFg13955&bmio=freerunner&manuf=fic-om
>
>  it's clearly easier to have
>
>  http://tinyurl.com/4e7o6d
>
>
>  >
>  > 1: Discover browser 0-day exploit
>  > 2: Put up a gallery of FreeRunner pictures on a website
>  > 3: Point a tinyurl at the gallery
>  > 4: Wait until everyone's linked to it and is clicking it
>  > 5: Change gallery to 0-day exploit
>  >
>  > Or even easier:
>  >
>  > 1: Link to goatse.
>
>
> Right, and any webpage could still redirect your browser to another so your
>  example fails.
>
>
>  > TinyURL takes all the best practice Internet guidlines you try and
>  > teach people and ruins them all. Can't stand it.
>  >
>
>
> and yet you're happy to advocate hotlinking to images, thus leeching
>  bandwidth. That's worse imho.
>
> --
>
>  Andy / ScaredyCat
>
>
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>
>
>

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Re: Yummy new CPU/GPU combo

[Andy Green]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:
| On Wednesday 04 June 2008 21:56:56 Andy Green wrote:
|> | IMO, OpenMoko's choice of using the the glamo was a big mistake
|> (Connecting it to a
|> | shared, 4-bit bus was probably the _biggest_ mistake).
|>
|> Huh what?  It's a 16-bit memory bus, maybe you mean 2^4 ;-)  When I
|> actually use the thing I don't notice much sluggishness.  Your best bet
|> is to eyeball one, I think you'll find it isn't the issue you think
it is.
|
| I thought it was connected to the (4-wire) SDIO bus?

We would rightly deserve to get our asses laughed at if we did that.
You're likely thinking about the actual SD Card interface is now via the
Glamo, which has an SD interface poking out of it.  WIFI is hooked to
the CPU SDIO bus and we don't otherwise use these buses.

| If it's connected to the address/data bus, why is it so slow and why can't
| DMA be used to copy data to it?

DMA can be used, I seem to recall someone saying they did something with
it in Xglamo, but PIO isn't where the problems are coming from.

The Glamo offers normal async memory bus interface which we use, but it
has a bunch of timing constraints.  (There is a synchronous burst bus
mode that we don't use because the CPU doesn't support it and adding a
CPLD in there to translate will eat power and doesn't make sense.)

In addition, we currently slug the Glamo IO with quite heavy wait states
to get stable operation; without it the Glamo acts weird in ways we
never got to the bottom of.  A few weeks ago I experimented again with
reducing these and saw all kinds of framebuffer corruption.  The Glamo
has several processors in it sharing its internal DRAM (6 or so), I
guess there is some stuff going on from that direction despite we hold
the unused ones in reset in there.

So unless our understanding of that beastie evolves further than the
datasheets, the current speed of it is what we have to work with.
However like I said when you hold the thing and use it, IMO it's
perfectly adequate.  The "August" Software Update ;-) has some cool
alpha and moving things going on that look nice, it's just not so bad as
you got the impression I believe.

- -Andy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkhHo/AACgkQOjLpvpq7dMprrQCfcns5dpSLGSGl0ynzqRxHSvGE
3Q8Anj0+9wH0oAgfMqY3FzYv9XKYnA4Y
=+qHS
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Re: Illume / ASU on GTA01 - Video

[Kyle Gordon]

Kalle Happonen wrote:
> thomasg wrote:
>   
>> Hi list,
>>
>> there are still many people who don't know about ASU, and about the 
>> change in the Openmoko distribution - and there are not many videos, too.
>> So I decided to do a small video to show what it looks like, what it 
>> behaves like and some of the next-generation apps.
>>
>> I took my Neo (still gta01), flashed one of the qtopia-x11 images[1] 
>> (that's what ASU is at moment!) and played around.
>> It's far away from being complete, it's not perfect and it surely 
>> doesn't show what will come, but I hope it will show you what the 
>> softwareguys at openmoko are working on and what the future will look 
>> alike.
>> Here it is: http://videos.gstaedtner.net/openmoko/illume_intro.mkv (16 
>> MB, ~3.5 min)
>> I hope you don't mind getting no crappy flashvideo this time, but a 
>> 500 kbps h264 with vorbis sound.
>> Feel free to download, share, and whatever you want.
>>
>> P.S. Excuse my bad english, I'm not a native speaker :(
>> 
>
> Thanks for the great vid. It's exciting to see what we'll be able to get 
> our hands on. And epic music :). And my 2 cents (eurocents), 
> downloadable real video >> flash in most cases.
>
> Kalle
>
>   
2 eurocents is about... 10 yankee dinar? :-)

However, good work folks. It's great to see it all coming together so 
nicely :-D

Kyle


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Re: duplicate mail

[Pawel Kowalak]

On Jun 4, 2008, at 10:14 PM, Philippe Guillebert wrote:
> Hi list,
>
> Am I the only one to get some of the e-mails on this list twice ou  
> more
> ? looks like the issue is back ...

I get duplicates for every mail I receive (not only for openmoko  
list) and it started yesterday ;) Strange, but it's not related to  
openmoko list, I guess.

BR,
Pawel

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