Re: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?

[nick d.]

Hi Aus people,

Neil: the info I got was referred to me by another Brisbane guy who pointed
me to the "Buying over the internet page" [1] which is where I got the 5%
from (check the table down the bottom).

Dennis: I did the UPS one and it came to around $170 which is drastically
different from $70 so maybe I did something wrong there. Nice work
interrogating Customs btw ;)

In summary, I'm clueless as to a definitive answer. Alex you work for the
ADO, so you must speak government-ese, maybe you can bring some clarity to
our situation...

-Nick

[1] http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=5549


On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 9:37 PM, NeilBrown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, May 16, 2008 3:59 pm, nickd wrote:
> > That's strange. I'm in Brisbane and it worked out cheaper to buy in
> > bulk. I estimated the postage as $70 for the bulk and $50 for individual
> > (using AusPost's Int. parcel calculator). What was your
> > postage/calculations? I've attached the worksheet I used to come to my
> > amount.
> >
>
> Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but where did you get the
> 5% figure from?
>
> Looking at the different tariff classes in
>
> http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4273
>
> The openmoko could only possibly fall in section 16 and chapter 85.
>
> Of those the closest fit seems to be item 8517.
> (See http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/tariff/chapter85notes.pdf
> )
> According to
>  http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/tariff/chapter85goods_b.pdf
> there are several subclasses of 8517, but the closest seems to be
> 8517.12.00 - Telephones for cellular networks or for other
>wireless networks
>
> which is "Free" of import duty.
>
> However I couldn't find "Computer" or "PDA" in Chapter 85, so
> maybe I'm missing something.
>
> But the above suggests that if the package is marked that it contains
> Cellular Telephony Devices (sounds more impressive than 'mobile phones')
> they should be customs-free ???
>
> NeilBrown
>
>
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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Brad Midgley]

Hey

> There is an email from Andy Green in March saying says we don't have
> monitor mode, which I think means no promiscuous mode.

It would also be handy to get master mode. I can't see if ar6k will
work in master mode, but a minipci ar5413 in my laptop at least used
to do this using the closed binary driver. A few ubuntu updates ago
this stopped working.

Even a usb adapter would be ok for me to get master mode & monitor
mode, but it's not clear there is an adapter that can provide these
with linux.

-- 
Brad

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Re: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?

[Dennis Wollersheim]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi guys

This could be just 'hoping for a desired outcome', but I reckon that there is 
no duty payable on
phones imported into Australia.  When I emailed Australian Customs (trying to 
get them to have
sympathy on the bulk order thing), they only mentioned GST.  See below.

Also, regarding postage, I think it would be slightly more accurate to use UPS 
postage calculator
(instead of Australia Post) as the phones are shipped from USA. Although, when 
I did so I got much
the same answers.

Cheers
Dennis


-  Original Message 
Subject: RE: Importing mobile phones for a group of friends CID 00494269 
[SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
Date: Fri, 18 Apr 2008 15:08:40 +1000
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Dear Dennis

Thankyou for your email regarding the importation of phones to
Australia.

In response, the phones would attract GST at the time of importation as
the phones are considered to be one consignment. As this consignment has
a value of greater than AU $1,000 GST would be applicable.

Sincerely


Stewart Mailer
Senior Customs Officer
Customs Information & Support Centre
Australia Customs
Phone   1300 363 263
Fax   02 8339 6711
Email[EMAIL PROTECTED]


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with MultiZilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFILkug41ROt9TlFkoRAu+mAJ9Jhw+m9N6ZtFzxc7rWTa/Zq8rA+gCgrx4M
ZXFsHTFyqxaYSGkSj8uvsWU=
=wcD7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Brandon Kruse]

I see this now, after reading more in depth about the driver itself.

This could be somewhat of a setback :P

I will have to do some more research, maybe see if they plan on adding
that in the future sometime.

Thanks for the input,

-bk

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 7:29 PM, Steven Kurylo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Thank You!
> >
> > And it is the Atheros Chipset, so I will be able to do everything. :)
>
> There is an email from Andy Green in March saying says we don't have
> monitor mode, which I think means no promiscuous mode.
>
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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Marco Trevisan (Treviño)]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) *babbled* {:)}:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 16:32:54 +0930 Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:19:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:


Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

On Thu, 15 May 2008 20:58:48 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:
  
I will do my best to show you more respect than you have obviously shown 
me. No promises.

ok. excuse me. but i did not show any disrespect.
I think he's referring to the automatic " babbled:" in your 
attribution line.  Some people might take offense at that if they didn't 
realise that it's put there automatically by your mailer and not 
something you wrote intentionally ...


oh.. that? hehehehe. i always thought it was amusing as all the cookie-cutter
identical form stuff everyone uses just gets so.. boring! :)


I agree with you Carsten (not only for this): I simply love it!
Anyway I'm Italian... :)

--
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Steven Kurylo]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:24 PM, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Thank You!
>
> And it is the Atheros Chipset, so I will be able to do everything. :)

There is an email from Andy Green in March saying says we don't have
monitor mode, which I think means no promiscuous mode.

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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Fabian Off]

Of course, it'd be pretty nice to just take your phone
and test your network's security level (which, of
course is too low if you're using WEP) But there are
two major problems, I see: First, I believe the
transmission power of the Freerunner will be kind of
limited, compared to, say an mobile Wifi-Chip for
laptops. Thus you may not reach the network when
you're not physically near the ap AND the clients.
Second, the power of the phone's batteryreally is
limited. Sending injected packages and dumping all the
resulting traffic means a lot of work for the cpu. I
can't believe the Freerunner will be able to do so...
Third and last thing: by now, there is no possibility
to get the wifichip to operate in 'monitor mode'. One
of the developers said that this neither is nor will
become one of the main things to focus on. If nobody
finds time to develop a solution for this, your
applications won't work at all. And even if monitoring
works, injections are needed as well to do the attack
in a reasonable time.
Sorry if all this sounds negativ, but knowing what
work was neccessary to get this running on a macbook
with an atheros chip, I am really sure there arw more
important things to do by now.

Greeting,
  Fabian Off
(Sorry if there are any mistakes in my text, but this
is written lying in the bed using an ipod touch...
PLEASE let the Freerunner be better than this!)
> Brandon Kruse wrote:
> > What do you guys think? Definitely taking the
> freerunner into a 
> > completely different market, which I think would
> be pretty cool.
> 
> My $0.02 is that it'd be a handy security test, but
> also hits a bit of a 
> gray area where it could be abused too.
> 
> Is it based on airsnort or something?
> 
> -id 




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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Brandon Kruse]

Thank You!

And it is the Atheros Chipset, so I will be able to do everything. :)

Thank you for the information!

I am going to start working on it now :)

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:17 PM, Vinc Duran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'm sure I read in another post (or the wiki) that WPA was working at
> least.
>
> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > I have a number of programs that I use, and some that I wrote, for
> > professional security pen testing (with permission).
> >
> > I was thinking of making a quick package for doing this automagically.
> >
> > (btw, does the neo support wpa/wpa2?)
> >
> > At the very least, it can cache enough requests on the wireless network
> > with a couple programs, which you could then brute force on a desktop
> > pc over a few hours / days depending on your machine.
> >
> > You could do the WHOLE wep (64bit and 128bit) crack within 20-30 minutes
> on
> > my 350mghz oldschool
> > dell laptop. Would anyone be interested in this?
> >
> > Dealing with WPA/WPA2 is a bit different, but the key to attack can be
> > 'cached' for brute for on another PC later. (or the NEO if wanted)
> >
> > I would have to see if the drivers support being set in 'promiscuous'
> mode,
> > etc.
> >
> > What do you guys think? Definitely taking the freerunner into a
> completely
> > different
> > market, which I think would be pretty cool.
> >
> > The end result would be to have a program you run, chose a wireless
> network,
> > and then
> > show reports of the program, cracking success/failure, etc.
> >
> >
> > -bk
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> >
> >
>
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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Vinc Duran]

I'm sure I read in another post (or the wiki) that WPA was working at least.

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Brandon Kruse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have a number of programs that I use, and some that I wrote, for
> professional security pen testing (with permission).
>
> I was thinking of making a quick package for doing this automagically.
>
> (btw, does the neo support wpa/wpa2?)
>
> At the very least, it can cache enough requests on the wireless network
> with a couple programs, which you could then brute force on a desktop
> pc over a few hours / days depending on your machine.
>
> You could do the WHOLE wep (64bit and 128bit) crack within 20-30 minutes on
> my 350mghz oldschool
> dell laptop. Would anyone be interested in this?
>
> Dealing with WPA/WPA2 is a bit different, but the key to attack can be
> 'cached' for brute for on another PC later. (or the NEO if wanted)
>
> I would have to see if the drivers support being set in 'promiscuous' mode,
> etc.
>
> What do you guys think? Definitely taking the freerunner into a completely
> different
> market, which I think would be pretty cool.
>
> The end result would be to have a program you run, chose a wireless network,
> and then
> show reports of the program, cracking success/failure, etc.
>
>
> -bk
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>

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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Brandon Kruse]

weplab/airsnort/sniff2air, and a couple other tools.

It is basically gluing a lot of the tools together for ease-of-use.

I agree that it is a bit of a grey area, maybe I could just have a EULA like
most of the programs involved have anyways.

-bk

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 7:16 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Brandon Kruse wrote:
>
>> What do you guys think? Definitely taking the freerunner into a completely
>> different market, which I think would be pretty cool.
>>
>
> My $0.02 is that it'd be a handy security test, but also hits a bit of a
> gray area where it could be abused too.
>
> Is it based on airsnort or something?
>
> -id
>
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Re: Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[ian douglas]

Brandon Kruse wrote:
What do you guys think? Definitely taking the freerunner into a 
completely different market, which I think would be pretty cool.


My $0.02 is that it'd be a handy security test, but also hits a bit of a 
gray area where it could be abused too.


Is it based on airsnort or something?

-id

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Re: IAX2/Asterisk + Openmoko FreeRunner

[Brandon Kruse]

One more thing,

The Digium Asterisk-GUI was designed ALL clientside (It is ALL javascript).

Trixbox uses PHP/mysql/apache2, whereas the AsteriskGUI uses the builtin
Asterisk HTTP Server, and javascript files (because we believe that there
should never be unneeded load on the box that your phone calls are running
through. )

-brandon

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 2:15 PM, Al Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Another bootable ISO to look at its trixbox
> http://www.trixbox.com/products/trixbox-ce/featur
> Both make setting up an asterisk server very easy. They also run reasonably
> in
> a virtual machine. trixbox has a few more bells and whistles; whether this
> is
> good or bad is a matter of opinion, as is preference between the different
> GUIs.
>
> On Friday 16 May 2008, Brandon Kruse wrote:
> > Yes,
> >
> > The iaxclient library I am implementing it in supports very very low
> > bandwidth protocols.
> >
> > I have made a call of GPRS before, the only thing is the latency, but
> it's
> > somewhat useable still.
> >
> > I have worked on the GUI for Digium, so go here and install asterisk +
> the
> > asteriskGUI (AsteriskNOW bootable ISO)
> > to get asterisk up and running quick:
> >
> > http://asteriskNOW.org/install-related
> >
> > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Travis Tabbal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > As a future user, I'm glad to hear about progress in this area. It
> might
> > > get me to actually set up an Asterisk server. :) Can we really get the
> > > datastream small enough for GPRS?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Openmoko community mailing list
> > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
>
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Wireless Cracking / Hacking on the FreeRunner

[Brandon Kruse]

I have a number of programs that I use, and some that I wrote, for
professional security pen testing (with permission).

I was thinking of making a quick package for doing this automagically.

(btw, does the neo support wpa/wpa2?)

At the very least, it can cache enough requests on the wireless network
with a couple programs, which you could then brute force on a desktop
pc over a few hours / days depending on your machine.

You could do the WHOLE wep (64bit and 128bit) crack within 20-30 minutes on
my 350mghz oldschool
dell laptop. Would anyone be interested in this?

Dealing with WPA/WPA2 is a bit different, but the key to attack can be
'cached' for brute for on another PC later. (or the NEO if wanted)

I would have to see if the drivers support being set in 'promiscuous' mode,
etc.

What do you guys think? Definitely taking the freerunner into a completely
different
market, which I think would be pretty cool.

The end result would be to have a program you run, chose a wireless network,
and then
show reports of the program, cracking success/failure, etc.


-bk
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Re: IAX2/Asterisk + Openmoko FreeRunner

[Brandon Kruse]

Heh,

Try to actually edit the config files and then use it :P

>From experience, asteriskNOW is my favorite, and the first platform
I am going to get the client to work with automatically.

(I am going to add an 'openmoko' option in the AsteriskGUI)

AsteriskNOW Also has Digital / Analog card support for detecting /
installing / configuring all digium Hardware.

It also has auto provisioning for polycom phones.

:)

But, I work for Digium, so I am somewhat biased right? :P

I will push for more features based on openmoko, in the GUI, however.

-bk

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 2:15 PM, Al Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Another bootable ISO to look at its trixbox
> http://www.trixbox.com/products/trixbox-ce/features
>
> Both make setting up an asterisk server very easy. They also run reasonably
> in
> a virtual machine. trixbox has a few more bells and whistles; whether this
> is
> good or bad is a matter of opinion, as is preference between the different
> GUIs.
>
> On Friday 16 May 2008, Brandon Kruse wrote:
> > Yes,
> >
> > The iaxclient library I am implementing it in supports very very low
> > bandwidth protocols.
> >
> > I have made a call of GPRS before, the only thing is the latency, but
> it's
> > somewhat useable still.
> >
> > I have worked on the GUI for Digium, so go here and install asterisk +
> the
> > asteriskGUI (AsteriskNOW bootable ISO)
> > to get asterisk up and running quick:
> >
> > http://asteriskNOW.org/install-related
> >
> > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Travis Tabbal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > As a future user, I'm glad to hear about progress in this area. It
> might
> > > get me to actually set up an Asterisk server. :) Can we really get the
> > > datastream small enough for GPRS?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Openmoko community mailing list
> > > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
>
>
>
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Re: Dash GPS personal nav device (uses OpenMoko) opens API

[Thomas Szukala]

Al Johnson wrote:

On Friday 16 May 2008, Thomas Szukala wrote:
  

Bastian Muck schrieb:



  

anyway back to Topic.

the Dash is really an impressive gadget. Id like to have one or at least
see some process in implementing routing with openstreetmap vector data.



Integrated into the Dash, or separate apps like pyroute or navit?


  
I sought about integrated into Dash. This would solve the problem with 
missing (expensive) maps. However, I am pretty sure that the Dash guys 
need a little bit more voodoo than just the maps.


I first sought about the Dash and not the Freerunner as I personally 
feel that pyroute and navit will need some time until they are ready for 
the masses. So, right now I would vote for a commercial routing gadget 
with decent (osm) maps.
The features like community driven traffic reports will even take some 
more time.
But when this is the case, Freerunner is probably the ideal platform for 
this kind of thing. As with a meshed wlan network the traffic 
information could be easily shared.



Hope the screen is easy to read in bright sunlight during driving, though.

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Re: DE-crypting calls

[Al Johnson]

On Friday 16 May 2008, ramsesoriginal wrote:
> I was just wondering: we have seen the problems of encryptingcalls.
> But what about decrypting them? Let*s say someone hasa method to call
> you with some sort of encryption.. would it be possible to write a
> decryption for it? Maybe public key?

Depends what sort of calls you mean. If it's GSM voice calls then the same 
problems apply as already discussed. If you're talking about a data link 
encrypted end to end and passing voice data then it's possible, probably 
using established standards. You could make an OpenVPN or IPsec tunnel end to 
end, then use SIP, h323 or IAX2 over it. You could use one of the secured 
versions of SIP directly, at least one of which uses public keys, but none of 
them are universally accepted. You could even roll your own protocol using 
TLS or something. 

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Re: Another little question about Group sales to steve

[David Samblas Martinez]

So the group can allways make a signed agreement to divide the price of the 
phone that if the final only one phone option is 399$  if the extra phone is 
selled to 369,1$ anyone got a final discount of 39'9$ on every phone.

Christ van Willegen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribió: On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:20 
PM, ian douglas  wrote:
> Correct, you'd get the discount on the group of 10, and have to pay full
> price on the extra 9. Might be worth looking for people in neighboring
> countries, etc., to group up?

or buy 20 and sell the last one via eBay...

9 phones at full price is almost the same as 10 at the discounted price!

Christ van Willegen
-- 
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

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Enviado desde Correo Yahoo!
La bandeja de entrada más inteligente.
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Re: Standardizing data store across toolkits (SMS, PIM data, playlist, etc)

[ian douglas]

MartinG wrote:

On Friday 16 May 2008 03:26:06 Carsten Haitzler wrote:

yeah. this is actually the bigger problem we face in the longer run.
standardising data stores and access to them etc. :)


I think this is a important point that should be given some thought
before everyone starts hacking. Would it make sense to use opensync
[1] as a middle layer between the frontend app and the backend store
-- with one plugin on each side?



Yeah, there was a big discussion about this a few months ago, talking 
about whether to store data in some generic format or some homemade XML 
format or using some middle layer tool like opensync, and synchronizing 
data to a remote location periodically versus sync'ing only when 
connected to a PC, etc. It was a pretty thorough discussion.


Personally, I like the opensync idea, a platform-independent sync 
engine, that can be ported to the OpenMoko platform.


-id

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Standardizing data store across toolkits (SMS, PIM data, playlist, etc) [Re: Software Status Update]

[MartinG]

On Friday 16 May 2008 03:26:06 Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> On Fri, 16 May 2008 01:44:59 +0200 "Marco Trevisan (Treviño)"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:
> > Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > > ... choose the toolkit you like. i really do not like the whole
> > > mindset of "we must program in language X or use toolkit Y because the
> > > device happens to use it somewhere in some apps by default".
> >
> > I do agree... I always use a kind of hybrid system here (I use mixed
> > apps both for Gnome/Kde/Xfce... Anyway a GTK/Qt mixture :P), but I've
> > spent days to get an homogeneous look (I use Qtcurve now)...
> >
> > BTW, I think that there's an important thing, really more than the look
> > one: different applications that performs the same task should work on
> > the same dataset. I mean, if I've both an Openmoko SMS app, and a Qtopia
> > one I want them all read the same contacts and the same messages.
> >
> > Maybe actually it's hard to do so, since they would use different
> > libraries and backends, but I guess that in this "middle-time" we should
> > write some "syncing scripts" that perform this important, vital imho,
> > task (converting data between apps on each runtime)!
>
> yeah. this is actually the bigger problem we face in the longer run.
> standardising data stores and access to them etc. :)

I think this is a important point that should be given some thought
before everyone starts hacking. Would it make sense to use opensync
[1] as a middle layer between the frontend app and the backend store
-- with one plugin on each side?
Or are the akonadi libraries light weight enough? Other solutions?

As a "poweruser" I tend to want to try all and every software
available to find out what fits my needs, but to set up everything
from scratch each time I change my mind would be, well, boring.
Programming a flexible data store on the other hand, would be rather
fun (what do I know - I have never really tried (yet))

Just some free thinkin' from my side...

best,
MartinG

[1] www.opensync.org
[2] http://pim.kde.org/akonadi/

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Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Michael Shiloh]

Christ van Willegen wrote:

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 My point was that the dfu-util program used to flash the Openmoko device is
a very portable utility, and can be compiled on just about any reasonable
OS, including OS-X.

 In fact, it's already been done:

  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:SNMoore


Great, I hadn't seen this! Perhaps Michael should add it to his 'Howto
start using the Neo'?


I was just thinking that as I read the comment. Yes, absolutely.

Thanks all,
Michael

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Re: IAX2/Asterisk + Openmoko FreeRunner

[Al Johnson]

Another bootable ISO to look at its trixbox
http://www.trixbox.com/products/trixbox-ce/features

Both make setting up an asterisk server very easy. They also run reasonably in 
a virtual machine. trixbox has a few more bells and whistles; whether this is 
good or bad is a matter of opinion, as is preference between the different 
GUIs.

On Friday 16 May 2008, Brandon Kruse wrote:
> Yes,
>
> The iaxclient library I am implementing it in supports very very low
> bandwidth protocols.
>
> I have made a call of GPRS before, the only thing is the latency, but it's
> somewhat useable still.
>
> I have worked on the GUI for Digium, so go here and install asterisk + the
> asteriskGUI (AsteriskNOW bootable ISO)
> to get asterisk up and running quick:
>
> http://asteriskNOW.org/install-related
>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 4:05 PM, Travis Tabbal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > As a future user, I'm glad to hear about progress in this area. It might
> > get me to actually set up an Asterisk server. :) Can we really get the
> > datastream small enough for GPRS?
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Openmoko community mailing list
> > community@lists.openmoko.org
> > http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community



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Re: Dash GPS personal nav device (uses OpenMoko) opens API

[Al Johnson]

On Friday 16 May 2008, Thomas Szukala wrote:
> Bastian Muck schrieb:

> anyway back to Topic.
>
> the Dash is really an impressive gadget. Id like to have one or at least
> see some process in implementing routing with openstreetmap vector data.

Integrated into the Dash, or separate apps like pyroute or navit?


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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Michele Renda]

Mo Abrahams wrote:

I have a bad habit of always wanting the best of the best,
:)  I think that with Freerunner you will have a lot to enjoy. A open 
development show you all the bug/problem of a product. There is no 
marketing office that say you that their product is the best!
I don't think Freerunner is the best of the best. It will have issues, 
it will be buggy, it will not be stable for a long time, may be it will 
not follow all the best design pratice, but it will be mine :)

 so when I
know that one toolkit has a feature I would find useful, but we are
using another, I cannot help feeling a little let down, but as I do with
all products (because this bad habit can be a bitch when it comes to
buying things) I ask myself if I hadn't read about it, would I miss it?
And the answer is usually no. Whilst extra language features would be
great, if nobody had mentioned them it wouldn't have crossed my mind,
and now that somebody has it is something that we can all work towards
as a community. EFL is nowhere near as mature is GTK, but it is exactly
a project like this that can change that. Somebody will see something
missing in OpenMoko, realise it is due to an inadequacy of
Enlightenment, and will fix it upstream for everyone to benefit from.
  
:) Yes, may be it will be a big possibility for Enlightement. Linux is 
great according me due to his diversity. We have a lot of DE (GNOME, 
KDE, XFCE, E17), a lot of tookit (GTK, QT, EFL, etc.), a lot of forks! 
According one this is a weak point of Linux. I think that differences 
may create innovation. Openmoko decide to "invest" on EFL. It is a 
courageous choose. I hope they (or we? :) will be lucky. In every case, 
we can always to use GTK or QT or what we want! (Ps. who speak is a 
person that like to use homogeneous application but use to all his pc 
different combinations of Linux distro and DE)

Well said. In fact, don't just enjoy with OpenMoko, enjoy being a part
of OpenMoko.
  
In the end I think that we are Openmoko (not only the Openmoko 
developer). If we flame, external people will think that we are good 
only for flame. But if we enjoy, I think people will start to join us.


And how said someone:
"the pioneers suffer marking the way, others enjoy the see / travel the 
traced path"



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Re: Qemu image? - Addion

[Roland Häder]

Here is my OE configuration:

OE Build Configuration:
BB_VERSION = "1.8.10"
OE_REVISION= "fd570626c1163ee4e85aa89f3de2cbe9f053"
TARGET_ARCH= "arm"
TARGET_OS  = "linux-gnueabi"
MACHINE= "om-gta01"
DISTRO     = "openmoko"
DISTRO_VERSION = "P1-Snapshot-20080516"
TARGET_FPU = "soft"

As I can see om-gta01 ist the machine? Hmmm...

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Re: Qemu image?

[Roland Häder]

As far as I understand the logic and the version number: Yes. But I might be 
wrong. :)

On Friday, 16. May 2008, George Brooke wrote:
> Hi people,
>
> could some one explain this to me,
>
> Is the OM image that you get when you build qemu with the mokomakefile
> fairly close to the system that will ship with the phone?
>
> Will the next software update completely replace this with a different
> interface?
>
> solar.george
>
> ___
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Qemu image?

[George Brooke]

Hi people,

could some one explain this to me,

Is the OM image that you get when you build qemu with the mokomakefile
fairly close to the system that will ship with the phone?

Will the next software update completely replace this with a different
interface?

solar.george

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Re: Another little question about Group sales to steve

[Christ van Willegen]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:20 PM, ian douglas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Correct, you'd get the discount on the group of 10, and have to pay full
> price on the extra 9. Might be worth looking for people in neighboring
> countries, etc., to group up?

...or buy 20 and sell the last one via eBay...

9 phones at full price is almost the same as 10 at the discounted price!

Christ van Willegen
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DE-crypting calls

[ramsesoriginal]

I was just wondering: we have seen the problems of encryptingcalls.
But what about decrypting them? Let*s say someone hasa method to call
you with some sort of encryption.. would it be possible to write a
decryption for it? Maybe public key?

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Mo Abrahams]

On Fri, 2008-05-16 at 18:42 +0200, Michele Renda wrote:
> It is very easy to speak, but nothing is so easy when it must be putted 
> in pratice. We all would like to have a phone that support all the 
> characters set and all the language and writing directions. But we must 
> to don't lose contact with reality.

I have a bad habit of always wanting the best of the best, so when I
know that one toolkit has a feature I would find useful, but we are
using another, I cannot help feeling a little let down, but as I do with
all products (because this bad habit can be a bitch when it comes to
buying things) I ask myself if I hadn't read about it, would I miss it?
And the answer is usually no. Whilst extra language features would be
great, if nobody had mentioned them it wouldn't have crossed my mind,
and now that somebody has it is something that we can all work towards
as a community. EFL is nowhere near as mature is GTK, but it is exactly
a project like this that can change that. Somebody will see something
missing in OpenMoko, realise it is due to an inadequacy of
Enlightenment, and will fix it upstream for everyone to benefit from.

and continued to write:
> But I think that to arrive in ML and to start to complain with Openmoko 
> about the reason why they use a toolkit in place of another, or why a 
> person use an automatic message, I think is not too much constructive.

When I first saw the "xyz babbled" thing, I thought it was some mailing
list way to say that somebody was talking out of their arse, being
manually put in to certain messages, and it wasn't until this thread
that I realised it was always the same person saying it, and for every
single quote, so I can understand where the misunderstanding came from,
but I think it was just fuel on the fire rather than the beginning of
the problem. Something that was, unfortunately, noticed in the middle of
a legitimate disagreement between two passionate parties.

and then added:
> So, stop with flame! :) and enjoy with Openmoko

Well said. In fact, don't just enjoy with OpenMoko, enjoy being a part
of OpenMoko.

Mo.


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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Michele Renda]

Stroller wrote:
Operating-system language support is obviously something that's 
important to you, but if you take a look at the economic realities, I 
think you'll agree that there's no reason for it to be a priority 
right now (sorry).


According me this sentence explains a lot :).
It is very easy to speak, but nothing is so easy when it must be putted 
in pratice. We all would like to have a phone that support all the 
characters set and all the language and writing directions. But we must 
to don't lose contact with reality.
Which instrument to use is their choose. I think they are not so stupid 
so if they decided to don't ship any program in gtk and to prefer efl, 
qt, or whatrever, I think they have their reasons.
Fic is doing a great job. They show us the progress they do step by 
step, they share with us some decision, but remember (it is refered to 
all that make no costructive critics) the decision about which 
instrument to use is them.

We are all free to build our alternative instrument if we want it.

I think we (as comunity) we must try to have a more constructive 
approach, as many person already had. Most of us are developer, we can 
develop what we miss. Other are power user, these persons can give 
constructive ideas, suggestion, help with documentation, bug reporting.
But I think that to arrive in ML and to start to complain with Openmoko 
about the reason why they use a toolkit in place of another, or why a 
person use an automatic message, I think is not too much constructive.


So, stop with flame! :) and enjoy with Openmoko

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Joseph Jon Booker]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 17:11:46 +0100
Stroller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> noted:
> FIC is a new company
> and hasn't sold anything yet - in a business situation like this one  
> watches one's costs and tries to get the best results one can
> without spending too much money.
> ...
> FIC will have  
> _income_ - that's REALLY significant!! FIC doesn't have income at
> the moment, 

Wait, what? Don't you mean Openmoko Inc?

-- 
Joseph Booker


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Re: Another little question about Group sales to steve

[ian douglas]

Correct, you'd get the discount on the group of 10, and have to pay full 
price on the extra 9. Might be worth looking for people in neighboring 
countries, etc., to group up?



Alexander Frøyseth wrote:

too bad actually, if we are 19 the is 9 that can't be in the *gruop*



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Re: Another little question about Group sales to steve

[Alexander Frøyseth]

Looks like that ;)
too bad actually, if we are 19 the is 9 that can't be in the *gruop*

Steven Milburn skrev:


PS:
I have searched the list  ;-)


Not well enough ;)

The 10-packs are modulo-10, not 10+.  You can get 10, 20, 30
not 11, 12, 13

--Steve

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Alexander Frøyseth 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED] > 
wrote:


Hey folks.
Okey

I just wondering about one little thing steve.
Is the definition  *10 pack* for only 10 persons, or can a 10 pack
also be over 10??

Example: Here in Norway we have started a group sale for Norway.
And the chance that we are going to be 10, 20, 30, etc. persons is
slim.
So can we buy a *10 pack* when we are 12?

Or is it only 10, 20, 30, etc groups that can get the extra stuff?

Alexander Frøyseth

PS:
I have searched the list  ;-)

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Stroller]

On 16 May 2008, at 06:19, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

...
Oh, so that's alright then, is it?

Do remind me how many people live in China. Last time I checked,  
traditional Chinese would not accept left to right input, nor  
simple key presses, nor went below a sixth of the world's population.


... in Japan... Look at the phones around you and do tell me how  
many of them have English only input. I don't know phones very  
well, but for general typing, last time I checked the smallest  
subset of Kanji was 120 characters long, and was only used by the  
Government. People typing solely in Hiragana was not something  
Japanese would look nicely upon. And that's Japanese, a language  
that converted from writing top to bottom with columns going right  
to left to writing left to right with lines going top to bottom. Do  
keep in mind that the rest of east Asia has not done that  
transformation, to the best of my knowledge.

...
Israel has a much higher level of English literacy among the  
general population than almost any of the Arab countries. You can  
walk down ANY street of ANY city and ask for directions in English,  
and it will be very rare to have to get a confused look and no  
answer. When I work with my phone, I use an English interface,  
because Hebrew technical language looks weird for me. However, when  
I look at the vast majority of friends phones, they are on Hebrew  
interface. You live in a non-English speaking country. I suggest  
you do the same.


Maybe a huge chunk of the world can GET BY on left to right, single  
letter at a time, but it is far from true to say that that is what  
a huge chunk of the world prefers.

...
in the developer community. Then again, the NEO is not intended to  
stay within the developer community.


Hi there,

I've cut your response - and edited the placement of only the last  
line - in order to focus on this one point. You seem to think that  
upside-down languages (if you'll pardon my informality) should be  
supported _now_ because Openmoko is planned _eventually_ to ship on  
mass-market phones.


I wrote in a previous message how sales estimates of the Freerunner -  
and FICs hopes for sales into the next several years - are likely a  
trade secret which are unlikely to be published openly on this list  
and which are really none of us end users' business. One doesn't,  
after all, ask one's neighbour what his income is. However it's my  
belief that FIC have a 5-year business plan for their phones, and I  
think that one probably shouldn't expect to see Openmoko-based phones  
in high street stores for at least a couple of years. I think there's  
a general expectation on this list is that "woah! we're gonna get the  
`developer version' next week, dude! they'll surely be in the shops  
way before Christmas!!"  (PS3 f0r teh w1n!!:!:! teh 36o 5uX0rZ!!)


I think it's more likely that the Freerunner - or any Openmoko-based  
phone - is likely to sell almost exclusively to existing Linux geeks  
for the first year of its production. I would imagine it would sell  
largely to speakers of European languages for some more years, and  
that FIC would be very glad to make significant inroads to the mobile  
phone markets of only those countries (I include Brazilians,  
Americans &c &c as speakers of what I consider broadly to be  
"European languages"). Sure, FIC'll be more glad to make inroads into  
markets with languages in other character sets, but that shouldn't  
blind us to what is economically feasible & expedient.


I would guess - from my experience working for a very average  
software development house - that you could employ 10 average visual  
basic programmers and not get half such good results as employing one  
Rasterman, who is surely a little cheaper. FIC is a new company and  
hasn't sold anything yet - in a business situation like this one  
watches one's costs and tries to get the best results one can without  
spending too much money. It's simply not an option to employ 10  
Rastermen right now and add all the features one might like - it's  
Rasterman's job right now to get out of the door the best, most  
functional mobile phone that he can, considering the constraints of  
his time and the likely customer base.


Magic does not happen overnight, and I think our enthusiasm for this  
product may be blinding many of us to the long-view - I'm sure, for  
instance, that Gnome is much different from the version I tried when  
Madriva was still Mandrake (perhaps in 2002??) and that many advances  
have been made. In a couple of years' time we might well see  
significant changes made to Openmoko's UI, but that's something to  
think about then - everything's different when you've sold a few  
thousand, or tens or hundreds of thousands of phones. FIC will have  
_income_ - that's REALLY significant!! FIC doesn't have income at the  
moment, and maybe in a couple of years time FIC'll tear everything  
down and start the software again f

Re: Another little question about Group sales to steve

[Alexander Frøyseth]

Steven Kurylo skrev:

I just wondering about one little thing steve.
Is the definition  *10 pack* for only 10 persons, or can a 10 pack also be
over 10??

Example: Here in Norway we have started a group sale for Norway. And the
chance that we are going to be 10, 20, 30, etc. persons is slim.
So can we buy a *10 pack* when we are 12?

Or is it only 10, 20, 30, etc groups that can get the extra stuff?



It has been posted many many times to the list that its 10 packs only.
 10,20,30.  Not 12.

  

Thanks
I just didn't find it then
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Re: Another little question about Group sales to steve

[Steven Milburn]

>
> PS:
> I have searched the list  ;-)


Not well enough ;)

The 10-packs are modulo-10, not 10+.  You can get 10, 20, 30
not 11, 12, 13

--Steve

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 11:53 AM, Alexander Frøyseth <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hey folks.
> Okey
>
> I just wondering about one little thing steve.
> Is the definition  *10 pack* for only 10 persons, or can a 10 pack also be
> over 10??
>
> Example: Here in Norway we have started a group sale for Norway. And the
> chance that we are going to be 10, 20, 30, etc. persons is slim.
> So can we buy a *10 pack* when we are 12?
>
> Or is it only 10, 20, 30, etc groups that can get the extra stuff?
>
> Alexander Frøyseth
>
> PS:
> I have searched the list  ;-)
>
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Re: Another little question about Group sales to steve

[Steven Kurylo]

> I just wondering about one little thing steve.
> Is the definition  *10 pack* for only 10 persons, or can a 10 pack also be
> over 10??
>
> Example: Here in Norway we have started a group sale for Norway. And the
> chance that we are going to be 10, 20, 30, etc. persons is slim.
> So can we buy a *10 pack* when we are 12?
>
> Or is it only 10, 20, 30, etc groups that can get the extra stuff?

It has been posted many many times to the list that its 10 packs only.
 10,20,30.  Not 12.

-- 
Steven Kurylo

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Another little question about Group sales to steve

[Alexander Frøyseth]

Hey folks.
Okey

I just wondering about one little thing steve.
Is the definition  *10 pack* for only 10 persons, or can a 10 pack also 
be over 10??


Example: Here in Norway we have started a group sale for Norway. And the 
chance that we are going to be 10, 20, 30, etc. persons is slim.

So can we buy a *10 pack* when we are 12?

Or is it only 10, 20, 30, etc groups that can get the extra stuff?

Alexander Frøyseth

PS:
I have searched the list  ;-)

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Re: Email disclaimers [Was: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?]

[Andy Powell]

On Friday 16 May 2008 12:43, AVee wrote:
> On Friday 16 May 2008 07:19, Wilkinson, Alex wrote:
> > IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence
> > Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the
> > CRIMES ACT 1914.  If you have received this email in error, you are
> > requested to contact the sender and delete the email.
>
> Is there actually someone in the Australian Defence Organisation who really
> thinks this is usefull? How do you guys defend your country, using red
> tape?
>

This one is particularly annoying since it seems to deliberately imply that 
you'd be breaking some law if you had the email. However if you actually read 
the appropriate section of the crimes act [1], it's the sender who gets to go 
to jail (2 years max) not the recipient / reader. 

... just sayin...

[1] http://www.underground-book.com/chapters/ccm/31.html 

-- 

Andy / ScaredyCat

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Re: CDCE (was: Freerunner on a Mac ...)

[Federico Lorenzi]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 5:08 PM, Ian Darwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>cdce[1] is the ethernet -over-usb driver in FreeBSD. To test it, you
>>can do 'kldload if_cdce', then see the man page.
>>Last time I tested it, it worked without problems.
>
> The cdce driver is also in OpenBSD (and presumably NetBSD); on Open at least
> it is in the generic kernel so you don't have to worry about modloading it
> or testing for it.
>
> The name is not arbitrary, btw. The USB standard defines these things as
> "Communication Device Class - Ethernet".
>
> The BSDs like to give things real names like that, compared to Linux's
> somewhat boring technique of calling all network devices "eth" (even ones
> that don't actually use Ethernet). I guess it's just a style thing... (he
> says, trying to duck the resulting flamefest)...
Indeed, and if for whatever reason you don't like it, you can always
alias it to eth? too :)

Cheers,
federico

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko? (was: Re: Software Status Update)

[Stroller]

On 16 May 2008, at 02:07, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:


On Thu, 15 May 2008 17:05:23 +0200 (CEST) David Samblas Martinez
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:


Sorry me if this has been said in other post, but if
gtk is not the "default" graphical library  what
library gonna be ETK the "official" one?  Just to
document me for future apps(ideas) in mind


please read my prior email. why does everyone think that there has  
to be an
official widget set and thus everyone has to move to it? use what  
solves your

problems best for you!


This may be a naive understanding, but I think most people on this  
list assume that their apps will look best if they are written using  
the same toolkit as that used by the phone's main apps. I think one  
would assume that it'll be easiest to interface with these apps - to  
have one's GPS application interface with the SMS app in order to  
send one's location to a contact, for instance - if they're written  
in the same toolkit.


I think back in the olden dayes, one had problems copying & pasting  
between KDE & Gnome apps, and that changing one's theme in KDE did  
not change the colour of the widgets within the windows of the Gnome  
apps one was unable to avoid using [1]. Perhaps these problems have  
been fixed by now, but surely you would be glad to have all  
developers for the platform choose the same toolkit as you?


Stroller.




[1] Sorry - I'm afraid I had a bad experience with Gnome some years ago.

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Re: CDCE (was: Freerunner on a Mac ...)

[Ian Darwin]

cdce[1] is the ethernet -over-usb driver in FreeBSD. To test it, you
can do 'kldload if_cdce', then see the man page.
Last time I tested it, it worked without problems.


The cdce driver is also in OpenBSD (and presumably NetBSD); on Open at 
least it is in the generic kernel so you don't have to worry about 
modloading it or testing for it.


The name is not arbitrary, btw. The USB standard defines these things as 
"Communication Device Class - Ethernet".


The BSDs like to give things real names like that, compared to Linux's 
somewhat boring technique of calling all network devices "eth" (even 
ones that don't actually use Ethernet). I guess it's just a style 
thing... (he says, trying to duck the resulting flamefest)...



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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Stroller]

On 16 May 2008, at 09:37, Shachar Shemesh wrote:

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:43:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

babbled:


  in my culture it
it good natured fun.
And had it not been the first time I received a message for you, I  
might have. Since the rest of the mail was quite dismissive as  
well, it is very hard to figure out, based on one email, that it  
was automatic.


Really, as someone who appears to be a geek, I'm surprised you even  
read the attribution line. I'm sure that most people only do so when  
several levels of quoting are involved and they need to ascertain  
exactly who said what in a complicated exchange. I wouldn't think  
that most people would notice the word to which you have taken  
offence, never mind assume it is aimed at them personally.


Stroller.



PS: I am intrigued by the rsyncrypto software you mention in another  
post - I am well overdue to arrange some automated network backup,  
and will certainly investigate your software when I get around to  
doing so. Thanks!! 


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Re: OpenMoko codebases with Linux Cross Reference (LXR)

[Joachim Steiger]

Andy Green wrote:
> Somebody in the thread at some point said:
> | Greetings all,
> |
> | I wonder if it would be useful for devel purposes to have the OM
> | sourcetree imported into LXR (http://lxr.linux.no/) so folks can have an
> | quick method to access code via HTTP, which I have personally found to
> | be much quicker than trying to large trees of C, espically better than
> | learning code via $EDITOR/grep.
> |
> | Any comments..?  Would only of the openmoko.org folks be willing to set
> | this up..?
> 
> I use this a lot myself, Google random APIs or structs with keyword lxr
> appended.  It's meant to be a bit of a beast to set up and run, but I
> think it would be great.
> 
> Gismo is this insane to hope for?
> 
> -Andy

currently i would rather like to put that onto the 'todo when we have a
bit more time again' list.

also i think there are some important questions IF we do that:

- which of our many source repos do we want in such a thing?
- how and when do they get updated/synced?

it seems that stuff needs a lot of perl, postgres as db and a few other
components, most important a search engine called 'xapian' i would like
to have the time understanding it before using it.

besides that it seems atleast 'do-able' (even if i really do not like
perl code anymore ;))

kind regards

-- 

Joachim Steiger
Openmoko Central Services

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Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Gerald A]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 3:51 AM, Christ van Willegen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >  My point was that the dfu-util program used to flash the Openmoko device
> is
> > a very portable utility, and can be compiled on just about any reasonable
> > OS, including OS-X.
> >
> >  In fact, it's already been done:
> >
> >   http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:SNMoore
>
> Great, I hadn't seen this! Perhaps Michael should add it to his 'Howto
> start using the Neo'?


Wow, you learn something new everyday. :) I'll have to check out doing it
that way.

I've been using the instructions here:
http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MacOS_X#Flashing_to_your_device

up until I got a Debian install to work. It's GUI and I believe it's now
Universal (was Intel only for a time).

Thanks,
Gerald
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Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Gerald A]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Torfinn Ingolfsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Wilkinson, Alex
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >0n Fri, May 16, 2008 at 08:39:48AM +0200, Federico Lorenzi wrote:
> >
> >>Should work, FreeBSD supports cdce, which is a USB ethernet gadget.
> >
> > What is "cdce" ?
>
> cdce[1] is the ethernet -over-usb driver in FreeBSD. To test it, you
> can do 'kldload if_cdce', then see the man page.
> Last time I tested it, it worked without problems.


I've never used it for flashing images, but communications with the neo
works perfectly through cdce on FreeBSD. (It does see the neo advertising a
device at boot time too, I've just never tried it).
,
Gerald.
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Re: Seat in embedded Linux training session offered to a contributor

[Bastian Muck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Thanks für the two links. But at the time I have to scratch money 
together for the freerunner. If I took part, I had to take away money 
from the Freerunner budget. And this is more important for me at the 
time. But next year everything is better cause I think to get my diploma 
this year. Then I shouldn't have this Problem.


Greetings Bastian

enaut schrieb:
| Bastian Muck schrieb:
|> Sounds interresting, but as a student (from germany) I don't have the
|> money for the journey and less for the hotel and food. But I think,
|> there will be others who do have.
|>
|> Greetings Bastian
| As a student you may be interested in services like www.couchsurfing.com
| or www.hostpitalityclub.org. Both sites are basicly the same. they are
| about getting to know people and other cultures by hosting some members
| for free... I never used it as a guest but I hosted several people.
| However there are the costs for the flight andthe food remaining... to
| optimize them use  www.mitfahrgelegenheit.de or hitchhike ;) last time i
| Hitchhiked in France I made it from south germany to paris in 8 hours
| and to Spain in 2 days.
|
| so money should really be no problem. ;)
|
| greetings enaut
|
|
| ___
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| http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
|
|
|
|
| ___
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Z/bi0E95dLpHBdk5m5i5kvQ=
=QZFg
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Re: Dash GPS personal nav device (uses OpenMoko) opens API

[Bastian Muck]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Of course,

you are right. I just amused about this sentence.

Thomas Szukala schrieb:
| Bastian Muck schrieb:
|> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
|> Hash: SHA1
|>
|> That's very interresting. The site sais:
|> "Dash includes maps for the United States (Continental US, Hawaii and 
Alaska) only. It will not work in Canada, Mexico, Europe or any location 
outside the United States."
|> Since when are Canada, Mexico and Europe in the United States? I 
thought I would live far away from the USA (Germany). ;-)

|>
| equaly weird when you have a flight from Europe (Germany) to Canada 
(Vancouver) and you have to change planes in Chicago. Canada is listed 
as a national departure not international... So I have get off the 
international arrivals and get through the customs to check in to US??? 
my globe recently said Canada and US were two different nations ;-)

|
| anyway back to Topic.
|
| the Dash is really an impressive gadget. Id like to have one or at 
least see some process in implementing routing with openstreetmap vector 
data.

|
|
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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Cns21ValdNRSO91h4YHCaRg=
=79qc
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RE: Freerunner...when??

[Crane, Matthew]

Maybe there's some good news today?  Cheers,

Matt

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of steve
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 2:51 PM
To: 'List for Openmoko community discussion'
Subject: RE: Freerunner...when??


I gave a short update. Production is slated to start prior to May 16, I
don't have an exact date, yet. 

 

 

 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of "Marco Trevisan
(Treviño)"
Sent: Wednesday, May 14, 2008 11:05 AM
To: community@lists.openmoko.org
Subject: Re: Freerunner...when??

steve wrote:
> Yes, A Sunday preview of my Monday update.

Am I wrong or we didn't get any Monday update this week? :P
Something more than a preview, Steve? :)

-- 
Treviño's World - Life and Linux
http://www.3v1n0.net/


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Re: Dash GPS personal nav device (uses OpenMoko) opens API

[Thomas Szukala]

Bastian Muck schrieb:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

That's very interresting. The site sais:
"Dash includes maps for the United States (Continental US, Hawaii and 
Alaska) only. It will not work in Canada, Mexico, Europe or any 
location outside the United States."
Since when are Canada, Mexico and Europe in the United States? I 
thought I would live far away from the USA (Germany). ;-)


equaly weird when you have a flight from Europe (Germany) to Canada 
(Vancouver) and you have to change planes in Chicago. Canada is listed 
as a national departure not international... So I have get off the 
international arrivals and get through the customs to check in to US??? 
my globe recently said Canada and US were two different nations ;-)


anyway back to Topic.

the Dash is really an impressive gadget. Id like to have one or at least 
see some process in implementing routing with openstreetmap vector data.



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Re: Email disclaimers [Was: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?]

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 13:43:31 +0200 AVee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> On Friday 16 May 2008 07:19, Wilkinson, Alex wrote:
> 
> > IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence
> > Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES
> > ACT 1914.  If you have received this email in error, you are requested to
> > contact the sender and delete the email.
> 
> Is there actually someone in the Australian Defence Organisation who really 
> thinks this is usefull? How do you guys defend your country, using red tape?

"
we shall tape them up on the beaches
we shall tape them to the landing grounds
we shall tape them up in the fields and in the streets
we shall tape them up in the hills
we shall never surrender...
... the red tape, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and
the liberation of the old!
"

fear the power of the red tape! mihahahhahahahahah!

:)

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Email disclaimers [Was: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?]

[AVee]

On Friday 16 May 2008 07:19, Wilkinson, Alex wrote:

> IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence
> Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES
> ACT 1914.  If you have received this email in error, you are requested to
> contact the sender and delete the email.

Is there actually someone in the Australian Defence Organisation who really 
thinks this is usefull? How do you guys defend your country, using red tape?

Email disclaimers are annoying and useless. They are even more annoying and 
useless when send to mailing lists. Please either talk some common sense into 
the one who dreamed this up or us a proper emailservice somewhere.

AVee

-- 
A radioactive cat has eighteen half-lives.

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Re: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?

[NeilBrown]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 3:59 pm, nickd wrote:
> That's strange. I'm in Brisbane and it worked out cheaper to buy in
> bulk. I estimated the postage as $70 for the bulk and $50 for individual
> (using AusPost's Int. parcel calculator). What was your
> postage/calculations? I've attached the worksheet I used to come to my
> amount.
>

Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but where did you get the
5% figure from?

Looking at the different tariff classes in

http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=4273

The openmoko could only possibly fall in section 16 and chapter 85.

Of those the closest fit seems to be item 8517.
(See http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/tariff/chapter85notes.pdf)
According to
  http://www.customs.gov.au/webdata/resources/tariff/chapter85goods_b.pdf
there are several subclasses of 8517, but the closest seems to be
8517.12.00 - Telephones for cellular networks or for other
wireless networks

which is "Free" of import duty.

However I couldn't find "Computer" or "PDA" in Chapter 85, so
maybe I'm missing something.

But the above suggests that if the package is marked that it contains
Cellular Telephony Devices (sounds more impressive than 'mobile phones')
they should be customs-free ???

NeilBrown


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Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

Hi,

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:49 AM, Wilkinson, Alex
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>0n Fri, May 16, 2008 at 08:39:48AM +0200, Federico Lorenzi wrote:
>
>>Should work, FreeBSD supports cdce, which is a USB ethernet gadget.
>
> What is "cdce" ?

cdce[1] is the ethernet -over-usb driver in FreeBSD. To test it, you
can do 'kldload if_cdce', then see the man page.
Last time I tested it, it worked without problems.

References:
1) 
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=cdce&apropos=0&sektion=0&manpath=FreeBSD+7.0-RELEASE&format=html
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 11:41:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> I have a problem with a mother that forces ME to love her children. This 
> is not a free software volunteer doing what he wishes, if it's good it 
> gets accepted, if not, then not. This is an engineer getting paid with 
> (hopefully) what is, in the end, our money. I think asking a company 
> that wishes me to be its customer should tolerate me asking it about its 
> engineering decisions.

the problem is then chosing an existing toolkit LOSES us other things another
toolkit gets. if you read my mails before efl is GOOD for custom ui's things
like media centers etc. - gtk is not so good at it. things like wm's, file
managers and other things efl is great at doing and does a lot for you that gtk
does not do and won't do without a lot of work. so yes - you are asking us to
do work. you are asking me to change toolkit and INCREASE my workload in other
areas.

> I'll stress it again. I'm not asking anyone to do development for things 
> I need. I'm asking to choose existing, debugged, stable and free 
> libraries that make that development easier, not only for me, but for 
> many others.

you are. there are always gives and takes no one toolkit does EVERYTHING and
does it all properly and perfectly. they have strengths and weaknesses.

> problem is exactly with the area Carsten has dismissed, which is text 
> input. I do not think it as trivial a part of the phone's functionality 

i did no such thing. i didn't not talk about it at all. i left the topic alone.

> as he seems to, and I therefor think the assumption make his statistics 
> irrelevant. I therefor stand by my original "third of the world" statement.

absolutely not. 

> I see this confusion quite often. I run an open source based company[1], 
> and I am a board member of an open source promoting non-profit. If I sit 
> at home and write an open source project[2], no one has the right to 
> complain. Then again, if it is my company that is sponsoring my time for 
> the project[3], for example because it is part of a larger product[4], 
> then I need to make the distinction between those who just use the free 
> part and those who are customers. Still, if I choose the wrong 
> technology, people will point it out to me. I think that there is a 
> chance that Carsten is making a bad choice here, for some definition of 
> bad. His answer did not go any distance toward making me think 
> otherwise. In fact, the more I read the more I get the feeling that the 
> ONLY thing going for EFL is that Carsten loves it like a mother.

you may have any opinion you like. 

> Again, if he was a standalone developer, I would have no leg to stand 
> on. In this case, however, it is the money I intend to put into buying 
> the machine that pays his rent. This is not the FOSS model. If you read 
> his reasoning, statistics and average salaries claim, you will see that 
> very plainly.
> 
> That is why I mentioned that the phone is free. We are used to such 
> logic from proprietary companies.

if you read the thread - gtk is still shipped. the apps are almost all qt. it
compares more than favorably to MOST PHONES. i walk into a store here and guess
how many phones will even DISPLAY arabic - letalone have input for them? shall
i go on about japan - or korea, or taiwan, or china? your view is of YOUR
world. that is a fair view. i was trying to let you know that though it is
unfair - YOUR world is fairly small in the scheme of things. we make make
decisions with DIFFERENT priorities. i was trying to explain that the demand
for bidi stuff has been close to non-existent in the past 12 years or so i've
done open source programming. i've been asked about it twice - ever, and once
someone offered to do it - then vanished. to me that indicates just how little
interest there is. and no follow-through from the only offer of help that
appeared.

EFL offers things that gtk does not. so we lose bidi and instead gain something
else. the something else is more valuable than bidi - to us as bidi customers
are a tiny portion of the userbase. did i say that you should now wrote your
apps with it? that it is the only thing shipping on the phone? that you cannot
use any other toolkits? that all apps use it. certain specific apps do.

i grew up in australia - arse end of the world. its a small place out of thee
way and frankly the world doesn't care what happens there. it doesn't have
nukes. doesn't have a huge population. is not insanely rich. it's a minority
corner of the world and the world will mostly ignore it. the world is though,
absolutely right in doing so. most australians get upset at being ignored and
at the "arse end of the world" in terms of world affairs, but that's life. it's
a harsh world out there. because to the world - australia matters so little
that it's not worth much effort. it's a rationalised response.

like anything else you focus on what is MOST important. i was trying to explain

Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 11:37:51 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> > in my culture it
> > it good natured fun.
> And had it not been the first time I received a message for you, I might 
> have. Since the rest of the mail was quite dismissive as well, it is 
> very hard to figure out, based on one email, that it was automatic.

every mail client adds that to the top of emails - automatically. mail clients
provide often a way to configure it. i happened to set mine to something
amusing. if you see it in every mil it's got to be obvious its automated - not
like everyone is manually doing it.

> >> Like I said, adding display support to a toolkit, especially where the 
> >> machine already has the required libraries, is a piece of cake.
> >>
> > not really. please tell me how you determine if you display right to left or
> > left to right where a paragraphi may be 50% roman and 50% arabic text?
> The standard way (GTK, QT) is to use the first character of the 
> paragraph, where translators are instructed to place an RLM/LRM at the 
> beginning of the paragraph if that heuristics fails. There have been 
> many battles with the GTK team about allowing an out of line override, 
> so far to no avail. Windows usually insists that this be set out of 
> bounds, but some undocumented experimentation suggests that placing two 
> RLMs at the start of the paragraph will, actually, override it in some 
> cases. For SMSs the heuristics is usually to treat it as right to left 
> if there is any RTL character in the SMS.

ok. so even here we dont have a consensus and a solution. it's pretty hacky.

> It's complicated, but it does not come under my definition of "display". 

it does for me as the non-display portion is only a co-ordinate (the selection
start point - and end point) the rest is merely display (drawing) of a
selection (as well as logical mapping of that selection to the source text).

> This is precisely the difference between adding display support and 
> adding full i18n support, and precisely the reason I think going for a 
> toolkit that doesn't have it is a problem. To me, you are just proving 
> my point.
> >  there's a lot of gotchas.
> >   
> But not with the display. The display is a simple "call fribidi and then 
> show the text" (with shaping for Arabic). It's the other stuff, which 
> are not display, that are difficult, and which will be greatly helped by 
> a toolkit that has already addressed it.

adn that toolkit will have not addressed other things like powerful layering
and custom ui mixing, fast rendering, etc. etc. so you lose some things and
gain others. priorities. what matters most is what always needs weighing up -
like it or not, roman text is the majority of the userbase already.

> > that is what i mentioned. input is another matter separate from display -
> > they have entirely separate code paths and systems, so i know i tackle them
> > separately.
> >   
> But does it make sense for them to have different toolkits? I don't know 
> of any way to easily mix widgets from different toolkits in the same 
> window (unless these are different processes doing separate message 
> loops, but even then it's not easy). This means, to me, that we must 
> think of the input stage even if it's far off. If a toolkit that is 
> convenient now will give us grief later on, maybe it's not the right 
> choice now.

you don't need to. you are still free to write or install apps with any toolkit
you want.

> > there are 2 halves to it. the fact is as-is right now you will get only
> > roman text input - on the gtk based om image as with anything else. you
> > will need to ADD support for anything else
> I don't mind adding support for things that are missing. HoweverAdding 
> Hebrew letters to an already existing keyboard is one thing. 
> Reimplementing a BiDi edit control is another.
> >  - and then hope it works ok.
> Except we know that with GTK it will be, more or less, ok, and with EFL 
> it won't. We already know that.

adding letters does not go solve your input methods - not for japanese, chinese
(traditional or simplified) or korean though. you can in fact keep your qwerty
kbd and just run the input method handler and bingo. it will work - as long as
the toolkit/apps talk to the input method handler (IME).

> > i still stand by the fact that the majority of people in the world - and by
> > far and wide the majority of people who will buy or own an openmoko
> > produced phone, will be right-to-left language users and the definite
> > majority of those will even be using basic latin text.
> Unless you are intending to use one toolkit for display and another for 
> input, I find that statement strange. I am not sure how text input goes 
> on Japanese phones, but I do know that, on Windows, an average IME 
> weights over 30MB, most of which is the dictionary of words it uses to 
> guess what you meant from the phonetic roman letters typed. Do you 
> really want to reimplement that?

Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Federico Lorenzi]

man cdce on a FreeBSD system...

On 5/16/08, Wilkinson, Alex <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 0n Fri, May 16, 2008 at 08:39:48AM +0200, Federico Lorenzi wrote:
>
> >On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:28 AM, Wilkinson, Alex
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>0n Fri, May 16, 2008 at 08:22:12AM +0200, Dirk Deimeke wrote:
> >>
> >>>One point on my list is to ask you, if it is possible, to
> configure
> >>>(install software) on Freerunner, when you have a Mac?
> >>
> >> And/Or FreeBSD ?
> >Should work, FreeBSD supports cdce, which is a USB ethernet gadget.
>
> What is "cdce" ?
>
>  -aW
>
> IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of the Australian Defence
> Organisation and is subject to the jurisdiction of section 70 of the CRIMES
> ACT 1914.  If you have received this email in error, you are requested to
> contact the sender and delete the email.
>
>
>
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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Shachar Shemesh]

Karsten Ensinger wrote:


Sorry if I sound harsh, but I want to make a point.

You are right, that is an excellent excuse.


What part of "free" you have not understand?

Yes, very mature.


YOU are free to do whatever you want regarding using toolkits within
Openmoko. There WILL GTK as well as QT shipping too.
And do not blame a mother for loving her children. ;-)
I have a problem with a mother that forces ME to love her children. This 
is not a free software volunteer doing what he wishes, if it's good it 
gets accepted, if not, then not. This is an engineer getting paid with 
(hopefully) what is, in the end, our money. I think asking a company 
that wishes me to be its customer should tolerate me asking it about its 
engineering decisions.


NO ONE promised that Openmoko will deliver a ready to use phone
developed ENTIRELY ON THEIR OWN. They always stated that they need the
help of the community to get "user-ready".
And I'm asking them to help me help them. I will add Hebrew support to 
an infrastructure that has the basic support. I will do that on my own 
time, without asking to get paid for it. It is extremely unlikely that I 
will have enough free time to implement a BiDi aware text editor inside 
EFL to support entering SMSes, however. I am not asking anyone to 
implement BiDi. I'm just asking them to make a choice between the 
ALREADY EXISTING toolkits that do.


I'll stress it again. I'm not asking anyone to do development for things 
I need. I'm asking to choose existing, debugged, stable and free 
libraries that make that development easier, not only for me, but for 
many others.



YOU YOURSELF stated, that this is an easy part, so you have to be an
experienced developer. Then DO IT.
Without looking at the EFL code, adding BiDi display support should take 
about two hours. No big deal by any stretch, and yes, I will do it. My 
problem is exactly with the area Carsten has dismissed, which is text 
input. I do not think it as trivial a part of the phone's functionality 
as he seems to, and I therefor think the assumption make his statistics 
irrelevant. I therefor stand by my original "third of the world" statement.


That is the way, open source development works. One has some needs and
does it himself or finds someone to do it for him. It is not about
blaming others for not taking his personal needs into account (even if
there are millions of others having the same needs).
I see this confusion quite often. I run an open source based company[1], 
and I am a board member of an open source promoting non-profit. If I sit 
at home and write an open source project[2], no one has the right to 
complain. Then again, if it is my company that is sponsoring my time for 
the project[3], for example because it is part of a larger product[4], 
then I need to make the distinction between those who just use the free 
part and those who are customers. Still, if I choose the wrong 
technology, people will point it out to me. I think that there is a 
chance that Carsten is making a bad choice here, for some definition of 
bad. His answer did not go any distance toward making me think 
otherwise. In fact, the more I read the more I get the feeling that the 
ONLY thing going for EFL is that Carsten loves it like a mother.


Again, if he was a standalone developer, I would have no leg to stand 
on. In this case, however, it is the money I intend to put into buying 
the machine that pays his rent. This is not the FOSS model. If you read 
his reasoning, statistics and average salaries claim, you will see that 
very plainly.


That is why I mentioned that the phone is free. We are used to such 
logic from proprietary companies.


Shachar
[1] http://www.lingnu.com
[2] http://sf.net/projects/fakerootng
[3] http://sf.net/projects/rsyncrypto
[4] http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Shachar Shemesh]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:43:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:


  
in my culture it

it good natured fun.
And had it not been the first time I received a message for you, I might 
have. Since the rest of the mail was quite dismissive as well, it is 
very hard to figure out, based on one email, that it was automatic.
  


Like I said, adding display support to a toolkit, especially where the 
machine already has the required libraries, is a piece of cake.



not really. please tell me how you determine if you display right to left or
left to right where a paragraphi may be 50% roman and 50% arabic text?
The standard way (GTK, QT) is to use the first character of the 
paragraph, where translators are instructed to place an RLM/LRM at the 
beginning of the paragraph if that heuristics fails. There have been 
many battles with the GTK team about allowing an out of line override, 
so far to no avail. Windows usually insists that this be set out of 
bounds, but some undocumented experimentation suggests that placing two 
RLMs at the start of the paragraph will, actually, override it in some 
cases. For SMSs the heuristics is usually to treat it as right to left 
if there is any RTL character in the SMS.


The point I'm trying to make is not that it comes free. The point I'm 
trying to make is that once the infrastructure is there, I have the know 
how to do go the rest of the way. If the infrastructure is not there, 
however, I doubt I'll have the time to put it in.

 which
formatting method do you use?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

 at what point do you change?

You don't. Each paragraph is rendered completely.

 how do you do
selections of text when you are selecting text dragging right to left then over
some quoted roman text that is left to right?
It's complicated, but it does not come under my definition of "display". 
This is precisely the difference between adding display support and 
adding full i18n support, and precisely the reason I think going for a 
toolkit that doesn't have it is a problem. To me, you are just proving 
my point.

 there's a lot of gotchas.
  
But not with the display. The display is a simple "call fribidi and then 
show the text" (with shaping for Arabic). It's the other stuff, which 
are not display, that are difficult, and which will be greatly helped by 
a toolkit that has already addressed it.


that is what i mentioned. input is another matter separate from display - they
have entirely separate code paths and systems, so i know i tackle them
separately.
  
But does it make sense for them to have different toolkits? I don't know 
of any way to easily mix widgets from different toolkits in the same 
window (unless these are different processes doing separate message 
loops, but even then it's not easy). This means, to me, that we must 
think of the input stage even if it's far off. If a toolkit that is 
convenient now will give us grief later on, maybe it's not the right 
choice now.


  
there are 2 halves to it. the fact is as-is right now you will get only roman

text input - on the gtk based om image as with anything else. you will need to
ADD support for anything else
I don't mind adding support for things that are missing. HoweverAdding 
Hebrew letters to an already existing keyboard is one thing. 
Reimplementing a BiDi edit control is another.

 - and then hope it works ok.
Except we know that with GTK it will be, more or less, ok, and with EFL 
it won't. We already know that.

i still stand by the fact that the majority of people in the world - and by far
and wide the majority of people who will buy or own an openmoko produced phone,
will be right-to-left language users and the definite majority of those will
even be using basic latin text.
Unless you are intending to use one toolkit for display and another for 
input, I find that statement strange. I am not sure how text input goes 
on Japanese phones, but I do know that, on Windows, an average IME 
weights over 30MB, most of which is the dictionary of words it uses to 
guess what you meant from the phonetic roman letters typed. Do you 
really want to reimplement that?

 our stats show just that.
  
Except that those stats disregarded input, and I do not see how you can 
disregard input.


Shachar


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Re: Software Status Update

[cedric cellier]

-[ Fri, May 16, 2008 at 04:54:48PM +1000, Carsten Haitzler ]
> > And we are supposed to think that the lack of homogeneous look n feel is
> > a bonus ?
> 
> it's up to you. you can uninstall whatever you don't like.

Of course, as I can code everything myself up to the kernel if I like to.

But the fact that we are given the freedom to modify the software
(Hurra!) is not a definitive answer to the problem of engeneering
a usable embedded user interface. OpenMoko is meaningfull only if its
there to provides a free user interface suitable for embedded device,
that is consistant and easy to figure out, with a shared data
storage, an easy packaging policy, etc...  Actually, more policies than
software (new software beeing of course necessary to achieve these goals).

This is what is lacking in the phone industry at large, and that's why
OpenMoko is important to me (only the iPhone stands out in this respect,
but to use the phone you have to sell mother and father to Apple, so
that its worthless).

Otherwise, if I feel like I just have a easy hackable hardware
accompanied woth a pile of various software requiring a geek to get
something out of it, well I'd rather have a Debian on the phone then.

> > Aside from that user perspective, what RAM is required if the phone runs
> > simultaneously some apps that use the three libraries ?
> 
> very little.

That's good news.


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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[nickd]

I concur wholeheartedly.

-Nick

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 16:32:54 +0930 Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

  

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:


On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:19:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

  

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:


On Thu, 15 May 2008 20:58:48 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:
  
  
I will do my best to show you more respect than you have obviously shown 
me. No promises.


ok. excuse me. but i did not show any disrespect.
  
I think he's referring to the automatic " babbled:" in your 
attribution line.  Some people might take offense at that if they didn't 
realise that it's put there automatically by your mailer and not 
something you wrote intentionally ...



oh.. that? hehehehe. i always thought it was amusing as all the cookie-cutter
identical form stuff everyone uses just gets so.. boring! :)

of course in some cultures even disagreeing with someone is a sign of
disrespect. one must always agree - never disagree! harmony must be preserved.
chances are that no matter what you say or do that in any way affects a
status-quo somewhere someone will get offended. c'est la vie. 

  



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Re: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?

[nickd]

I wasn't sure if I should put it on the wiki or not as I was uncertain 
about postage - but since you think they're alright, go for it!


-Nick

Chris Hogan wrote:

Hi All,

Thanks Nick for the spreadsheet - I guesstimated the postage at about $50 for 
the bulk order and $20 for the individual units, based off past experience 
shipping stuff from the US - didn't even think to use the Aus Post 
calculator.


In other words, I trust your figures over mine :-)

For other Aussies, Nick's figures show a cost of $465 for bulk vs $481 for an 
individual order.


Nick, would you mind if I posted your figures on the Group Orders wiki?

Chris.

On Fri, 16 May 2008 03:59:49 pm nickd wrote:
  

That's strange. I'm in Brisbane and it worked out cheaper to buy in
bulk. I estimated the postage as $70 for the bulk and $50 for individual
(using AusPost's Int. parcel calculator). What was your
postage/calculations? I've attached the worksheet I used to come to my
amount.

-Nick

Chris Hogan wrote:


Hi all,

Yeah, with or without extras the customs cost will be the same... and it
works out (I think) at about $425 per phone - higher than the cost of an
individual order (which falls below the $1000 threshold and so doesn't
attract customs charges).
  


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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 10:43:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

> > ok. excuse me. but i did not show any disrespect.
> Calling what I say "babbling" seems disrespectful to me.

it's automatic - everyone gets it. i'm asutralian by nature. in my culture it
it good natured fun. i am surprised that you took offense to what is obviously
a automated bit of text not actually typed in just for you to offend you. you
might get royally offended hanging out with aussies as they will always good
naturedly call eachother names and use very familiar language. i am saying this
because i could just go "oh - i will change to adapt to your culture" but at
the same time compromise my own. so please do not take offense at what is an
automated bit of template text that goes everywhere.

> > yes. indeed. if we do it by population or by country count. the MAJORITY
> > (most
> > - greater than 50%) use a language that DISPLAYS perfectly well left to
> > right 1 character at a time.
> I'll skip the rest of the email, because we really don't want to turn 
> this into a flame war.
> 
> Like I said, adding display support to a toolkit, especially where the 
> machine already has the required libraries, is a piece of cake.

not really. please tell me how you determine if you display right to left or
left to right where a paragraphi may be 50% roman and 50% arabic text? which
formatting method do you use? at what point do you change? how do you do
selections of text when you are selecting text dragging right to left then over
some quoted roman text that is left to right? there's a lot of gotchas.

> Answering Karsten, yes, if OpenMoko ends up using EFL, I will add BiDi 
> support to the display. I have done it before and know whats required. 
> It is NOT the display that worries me, and I have not seen you address 
> that point in my mail. I hate to see you disregard a need merely because 
> of emotional investment in a toolkit.

that is what i mentioned. input is another matter separate from display - they
have entirely separate code paths and systems, so i know i tackle them
separately.

> Operating a phone requires much more than merely displaying text. I 
> think it unsmart to not take that fact into consideration when choosing 
> a toolkit.

there are 2 halves to it. the fact is as-is right now you will get only roman
text input - on the gtk based om image as with anything else. you will need to
ADD support for anything else - and then hope it works ok. it hasn't gone
backwards. it's just gone sideways.

i still stand by the fact that the majority of people in the world - and by far
and wide the majority of people who will buy or own an openmoko produced phone,
will be right-to-left language users and the definite majority of those will
even be using basic latin text. our stats show just that.

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Christ van Willegen]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 9:15 AM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  My point was that the dfu-util program used to flash the Openmoko device is
> a very portable utility, and can be compiled on just about any reasonable
> OS, including OS-X.
>
>  In fact, it's already been done:
>
>   http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:SNMoore

Great, I hadn't seen this! Perhaps Michael should add it to his 'Howto
start using the Neo'?

Christ van Willegen
-- 
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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Shachar Shemesh]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:19:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:

  

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:


On Thu, 15 May 2008 20:58:48 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:
  
  
I will do my best to show you more respect than you have obviously shown 
me. No promises.



ok. excuse me. but i did not show any disrespect.

Calling what I say "babbling" seems disrespectful to me.


yes. indeed. if we do it by population or by country count. the MAJORITY (most
- greater than 50%) use a language that DISPLAYS perfectly well left to right 1
character at a time.
I'll skip the rest of the email, because we really don't want to turn 
this into a flame war.


Like I said, adding display support to a toolkit, especially where the 
machine already has the required libraries, is a piece of cake. 
Answering Karsten, yes, if OpenMoko ends up using EFL, I will add BiDi 
support to the display. I have done it before and know whats required. 
It is NOT the display that worries me, and I have not seen you address 
that point in my mail. I hate to see you disregard a need merely because 
of emotional investment in a toolkit.


Operating a phone requires much more than merely displaying text. I 
think it unsmart to not take that fact into consideration when choosing 
a toolkit.


Shachar

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Andy Green]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Somebody in the thread at some point said:

| I think he's referring to the automatic " babbled:" in your
| attribution line.  Some people might take offense at that if they didn't
| realise that it's put there automatically by your mailer and not
| something you wrote intentionally ...

FWIW once on another (non-technical) mailing list I trimmed the quoting
in a reply such that the first line was quoted from a few mails back in
the thread.  Like this

On   said:

|> Something  said

I got a very angry reply from guy1 who wrote the mail I directly replied
to saying he had never said the stuff I quoted and what was I trying to
pull, I could ruin peoples' reputations like that, etc.

Obviously I explained it was just trimming and the first line was
autogenerated, but afterwards I thought that the auto reply string
really is making a pretty uncertain assertion about what is actually
quoted since I generally trim quoting pretty hard.  I found I couldn't
seem to turn it off in Thunderbird, so I changed it since then to only
say what one can be pretty sure of in a reply...

- -Andy
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkgtNSUACgkQOjLpvpq7dMo6gACdFYA1TS/RLG2ghy0yOHGjHNaS
f8cAn2pWvt7cxDSLGu7GcrEpVtSQhbtv
=AueC
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Rod Whitby]

Christ van Willegen wrote:

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Christ van Willegen wrote:


What I am wondering about (and maybe you as wel...) is if it will be
possible to re-flash the Freerunner using a Mac. Since I also own a
Mac, that would be nice to know...


 I have reflashed GTA01 and GTA02 with a Linksys NSLU2 NAS device, and a
Freecom FSG-3 wireless router (using dfu-util cross-compiled for armeb and
ipkg installed on SlugOS).


Like Dirk, my Mac runs OS-X... and I don't feel comfortable hacking
into my router to do this!


My point was that the dfu-util program used to flash the Openmoko device 
is a very portable utility, and can be compiled on just about any 
reasonable OS, including OS-X.


In fact, it's already been done:

  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/User:SNMoore

-- Rod

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 16:32:54 +0930 Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> > On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:19:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > babbled:
> > 
> >> Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
> >>> On Thu, 15 May 2008 20:58:48 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> babbled:
> >>>   
> >> I will do my best to show you more respect than you have obviously shown 
> >> me. No promises.
> > 
> > ok. excuse me. but i did not show any disrespect.
> 
> I think he's referring to the automatic " babbled:" in your 
> attribution line.  Some people might take offense at that if they didn't 
> realise that it's put there automatically by your mailer and not 
> something you wrote intentionally ...

oh.. that? hehehehe. i always thought it was amusing as all the cookie-cutter
identical form stuff everyone uses just gets so.. boring! :)

of course in some cultures even disagreeing with someone is a sign of
disrespect. one must always agree - never disagree! harmony must be preserved.
chances are that no matter what you say or do that in any way affects a
status-quo somewhere someone will get offended. c'est la vie. 

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko? (was: Re: Software Status Update)

[The Rasterman]

On Fri, 16 May 2008 06:55:45 + (GMT) David Samblas Martinez
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> babbled:

note the neo has enough ram to handle several at once with ease. EFL tends to
be significantly smaller than gtk in footprint memory-wise, and you have the
luxury of using several anyway. 128m of ram is huge. i did lots of gui dev on
linux back when i had 32m of ram... and that was lots. you have ram to spare
with this, so don't get worried.

-- 
Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

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Re: Freerunner on a Mac ...

[Christ van Willegen]

On Fri, May 16, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Rod Whitby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Christ van Willegen wrote:
>
> > What I am wondering about (and maybe you as wel...) is if it will be
> > possible to re-flash the Freerunner using a Mac. Since I also own a
> > Mac, that would be nice to know...
> >
>
>  I have reflashed GTA01 and GTA02 with a Linksys NSLU2 NAS device, and a
> Freecom FSG-3 wireless router (using dfu-util cross-compiled for armeb and
> ipkg installed on SlugOS).

Like Dirk, my Mac runs OS-X... and I don't feel comfortable hacking
into my router to do this!

Christ van Willegen
-- 
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Re: Will GTK be used in Openmoko?

[Rod Whitby]

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

On Fri, 16 May 2008 08:19:31 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:


Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:

On Thu, 15 May 2008 20:58:48 +0300 Shachar Shemesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
babbled:
  
I will do my best to show you more respect than you have obviously shown 
me. No promises.


ok. excuse me. but i did not show any disrespect.


I think he's referring to the automatic " babbled:" in your 
attribution line.  Some people might take offense at that if they didn't 
realise that it's put there automatically by your mailer and not 
something you wrote intentionally ...


-- Rod

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Re: Value of headsets and pouches for 10 pack orders?

[Chris Hogan]

Hi All,

Thanks Nick for the spreadsheet - I guesstimated the postage at about $50 for 
the bulk order and $20 for the individual units, based off past experience 
shipping stuff from the US - didn't even think to use the Aus Post 
calculator.

In other words, I trust your figures over mine :-)

For other Aussies, Nick's figures show a cost of $465 for bulk vs $481 for an 
individual order.

Nick, would you mind if I posted your figures on the Group Orders wiki?

Chris.

On Fri, 16 May 2008 03:59:49 pm nickd wrote:
> That's strange. I'm in Brisbane and it worked out cheaper to buy in
> bulk. I estimated the postage as $70 for the bulk and $50 for individual
> (using AusPost's Int. parcel calculator). What was your
> postage/calculations? I've attached the worksheet I used to come to my
> amount.
>
> -Nick
>
> Chris Hogan wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Yeah, with or without extras the customs cost will be the same... and it
> > works out (I think) at about $425 per phone - higher than the cost of an
> > individual order (which falls below the $1000 threshold and so doesn't
> > attract customs charges).

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