from:"Steve"

 Good resources for a user guide...

Michael Zanetti wrote:
 On Sunday 07 June 2009 12:00:44 Petr Vanek wrote:
   
 i am uploading it on http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ as we speak, please
 select what you like :)

 

 Very nice screenshots!

 How did you get the category bar on the bottom for example on screenshot 
 #2753?

 Thanks,
 Michael

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Re: Stress test of my Freerunner

Thanks Sven,

  Sorry I was not there on Monday when you visited the office. I left 
TPE the previous friday.
  Glad to hear you love you FR, keep up the good work and best of luck 
on your project.


Sven Klomp wrote:
 As you already noticed from my last mail (Visit at Openmoko), I was traveling 
 through Taiwan. I didn't want to blame anyone, but share my feelings with 
 people that are also thrilled by this project. Nevertheless as several people 
 already mentioned, we have an open phone! and there is a future!

 I use my Freerunner for several weeks as my daily phone now (started after 
 the buzz was fixed by Daniel, thanks). However, the last two weeks I 
 stretched my FR to the limit and it did it well:
 Few days before I started traveling Taiwan, I decided to make some GPS based 
 diary for my friends at home. Thanks to the very easy API of FSO, I was able 
 to write a basic application in Python within three evenings. The 
 applications sends the current coordinates and some text to my server, where 
 a KML file is created which can be downloaded by my friends. At the airport, 
 I bought a cheap Taiwan SIM card and I started to transmit my position via 
 GPRS (which also worked out-of-the-box). Furthermore, the timezone changed 
 automagically based on GSM (my old Sony Ericsson wasn't able to do so).

 I had a lot of fun during the last weeks tracking my travel. Of course, I had 
 some problems but I could solve all of them more or less. E.g. the SHR alarm 
 application doesn't worked. So I did the alarm the bash way: sleep 28800  
 aplay alarm.wav :-) With this solution, the phone couldn't suspend. Luckily, 
 the wall charger has Taiwan connections below the European adaptor :-)
 Furthermore, I was that adventurous to make an opkg upgrade during the travel 
 :-) Thereafter, I couldn't suspend after I started GPRS. Annoying, but not a 
 serious problem.

 I love my FR
 Sven

 P.S.: Now I start to fill some bug reports :-)

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Re: Freerunner's Future

Swap.

  Thanks. There are many options available to OM. I'm sure they all be 
considered


Steve


swap38 wrote:
 Steve Mosher a écrit :
 see inlined.

 Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
   
 (...)

 Organizing an Openmoko Foundation is something I'd really like to help
 with.   Up till now I've not really had the skills to contribute any
 sort of code.  The other activities open to me thus far (like bug
 testing and documentation), well unfortunately haven't gotten me
 involved in anything more than a casual basis (though I have learned
 tonnes from my months of lurking).
 
   I'll let Sean know personally. We've discussed it. Haralde also has
   high regard for the idea.
 
 good news :-)
 
 Like jeremy I'm not enough skilled to contribute in code and I'm 
 probably less skilled than him in management.
 But I want to help as much as I can.
 
 There's 2 solutions for a foundation :
 1 - create a brand new Openmoko foundation
 2 - join an a foundation that already exists an create a sub-group
 
 The solution 2 is easier to start (and can be moved in solution 1 later).
 We can ask to :
 - Linux International (see this mail from maddog :
 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049177.html)
 - Mozilla (they planned to build a mozilla phone :
 http://mozphone.com/about/)
 - LiMo ? (www.limofoundation.org)
 - other ?
 
 My 2 cents
 
 Swap38
 
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Re: Linux International and Openmoko

Thank you Dr. Schaller,

  Your suggestions, both about the business of Openmoko, and the paths
forward for the company have been an inspiration to me. Not to mention
your dogged determination in helping us get the buzz fix out to the
community. Had we not taken your suggestions and adopted your program
our community would still be buzzed! Thanks also for helping our
partners in North America bring your program to that continent.

Steve

Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 I am very happy that my ideas that I had expressed and discussed  
 beginning of April (and even non-public in March)
 
   http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/gta03/2009-April/06.html
 
 have inspired many people: Steve who pushed for a GTA03 mailing list  
 and opening the design process, Werner who now runs the GTA02-core  
 project and now thank you Jon for proposals to give the community a  
 new home!
 
 IMHO, the community is now again going in the right (future oriented)  
 direction and I am happy to see that.
 
 Nikolaus
 
 http://www.handheld-linux.com by Golden Delicious Computers
 
 Am 06.06.2009 um 18:42 schrieb Jon 'maddog' Hall:
 
 Hello,

 I understand that there has been a discussion on this list about  
 having
 a foundation that would represent the community of Openmoko.

 Fifteen years ago Linux International was created to provide services
 for the Linux community.  It was started as a vendor organization,  
 at a
 time when there were not many vendors interested in Linux.  We  
 handled a
 lot of legal and business issues for Linux:

 o Protected the Linux Trademark from people that would kidnap it for
 various reasons
 o Helped to start two certification organizations (we funded some of  
 the
 original testing work for LPI certification)
 o Helped to start the Linux Standard Base project, which became the  
 Free
 Standards Group
 o Helped to form what became Linuxworld
 o Helped many local user groups start local events, most notably the
 Atlanta LinuxFest and the Ohio LinuxFest

 We tended to split off the groups we formed, afraid that one vendor
 organization would provide too much power in a centralized  
 organization.

 For various reasons as larger companies started to show interest in
 Linux, our membership went to form OSDL, which now is the Linux
 Foundation.  Linux International as an organization has been dormant  
 for
 about five years.  I have still been spreading the word about Free
 Software at conferences, through magazine articles and media  
 interviews.

 Recently I came up with the idea of reforming Linux International into
 an end user organization, with the concept that no company could  
 join
 as a member, nor sit on the board of directors as a member.  Only
 individual end users could hold membership, vote, etc.  Of course  
 almost
 everybody is an end user of some type of software, so the membership
 would be quite open.  I have been working to change the charter of  
 LI
 to reflect this.

 Recently I started another project, not a phone, but otherwise similar
 in its needs to Openmoko.  This other project will have a community,  
 be
 completely open, and needs an umbrella organization to help with  
 legal
 work, etc.  I intend on forming a sub-group of LI for this project.

 I could offer the same to Openmoko, to be a sub-group of LI.

 Linux International is already a legal entity.  We are a
 not-for-profit in the state of New Hampshire, U.S.A.  There are
 reasons why LI is a not-for-profit instead of a non-profit (501c3 or
 501c6) which have to do with ease of applying revenues, etc.  Nothing
 stops LI from becoming a 501c6 (501c3 is very restrictive), and  
 nothing
 would stop the sub-group of Openmoko from becoming a non-profit, if  
 that
 is desired.

 Likewise the plans for LI are to have country chapters, with separate
 boards for each country chapter.  This was planned way before the
 current issue with Openmoko, but you could take advantage of the  
 planned
 structure if you wish.

 LI would solicit sponsorships to help fund its work which could come
 from companies, but again the voting membership would be from
 individuals only.  The things that LI does would be Open to all.  We
 do plan on having some things we charge for, to cover costs.

 If the Openmoko community is interested in pursuing this, I would be
 happy to discuss LI's plans further with you, and how Openmoko could  
 fit
 into this.

 Warmest regards,

 Jon maddog Hall
 -- 
 Jon maddog Hall
 Executive Director   Linux International(R)
 email: mad...@li.org 80 Amherst St.
 Voice: +1.603.672.4557   Amherst, N.H. 03031-3032 U.S.A.
 Cell:  +1.603.943.   WWW: http://www.li.org

 Board Member: Uniforum Association
 Board Member Emeritus: USENIX Association (2000-2006)

 (R)Linux is a registered trademark of Linus Torvalds in several
 countries.
 (R)Linux International is a registered trademark in the USA used
 pursuant to a license from Linux Mark Institute, authorized

Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)

2009-06-06 Thread Steve Mosher

David Reyes Samblas Martinez wrote:
 2009/6/5 Tim Schmidt timschm...@gmail.com:
   
 On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:26 PM, Steve Mosherst...@openmoko.com wrote:
 
 I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is
 the position,
 held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is
 required
 to apply for a license.
   
 So these dolts want a license fee for every turing complete computer
 above a few mips?
 
 in short yes, in Spain is even more blooding, because apart of format
 war licences in customs, there is local  agency called SGAE that
 succeeds in make pay a fee for any device not only able to play mp3
 but any kind of music, and that's not all, not only to play but to
 keep any kind of multimedia format (this include CD/DVD-R, HD,
 SDCards)
 Is no matter of common sense or logic, now a days with law at hand,
 they can do it and they do. Then is your work to demonstrate in court
 you are right but meanwhile you are totally fuc$%ed. Scaring ,isn't
 it?
 Steve the problem is that some holding the position, are the ones
 that have enough money/power/time/knowledge to sue you, because even
 If they know they can loose in the court, in a way or another you will
 pay because you just can afford and stand in the whole long proccess,
 is their daily routine.
   
Yes,  I know this is the problem. Perhaps I wasnt clear enough in my 
cryptic note. The issue
isnt whether or not this position is valid or will win in court. 
The issue is this. can you afford
to defend yourself?  At one company I worked at the rule was pretty 
simple. Try to settle anything
that was less than a certain dollar amount, say  XYZ dollars, 
because the cost to even get in front of a judge
was XYZ dollars. I cant count the number of times I was told  they 
have no case, but the cost to prove it
is $$$, go work out a deal

   
 --tim

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Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)

2009-06-06 Thread Steve Mosher

Al Johnson wrote:
 On Saturday 06 June 2009, Harald Welte wrote:
   
 On Fri, Jun 05, 2009 at 12:26:42PM -0700, Steve Mosher wrote:
 
 I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is
 the position, held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of
 mp3 decode is required to apply for a license.
   
 I think that position cannot hold strong in any court of law.  You cannot
 charge a MP3 license for each and every general purpose computing device. 
 This would mean that e.g. every PC mainboard would have to pay the MP3
 royalties, and I can assure you, they dont ;)

 So even while sisvel or others might claim such a position, it is
 pointless.
 

 That depends on what the point is. It's no good being right if you can't 
 afford to prove it. Many will pay for a license they don't need because it's 
 cheaper than litigation. It's a legal form of extortion.
   
+1.
  

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Re: Openmoko Neo FreeRunner GTA02 versions A5 A6 Audio Buzz - Quality Enhancement Service

Max wrote:
 Great to hear that...
 Btw, where do you actually situated?... at least information about
 continent you're in would greatly help in estimating shipment costs :)

 cheers,
 Max.


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Re: Pat Meier

Christoph,

  I will politely ask you to retract your comments about Pat. Each and 
every press release issued by
Openmoko was written by me and issued with my approval and Sean's 
approval. Pat is in charge
of the mechanics of getting those releases distributed and covered by 
the press. As PR she would make editorial suggestions,
but in the end the words are approved by me and sean and in the case of 
quotes, the quotes
are approved by the person being quoted. If you consider the words to be 
BS, then you are
entitled to your opinion. I am responsible for each and every word.  I'm 
responsible for
generating the information, not Pat. Basically it works like this. I 
want to to do a press release.
I talk with Pat and we discuss whether the item is newsworthy in our 
estimation. Steve ate breakfast
may be a fine tweet, but it isn't news. Then if we agree it is 
newsworthy, I write the release.
Sean reviews it and when he and I come to agreement we go back to Pat 
and ask her to put the release out
Her name goes at the bottom of the release. Not because the words are 
hers, but because she is the Press
Contact. That means the press contacts her when they want to talk to me 
or sean.


Christoph Pulster wrote:
   I've copied pat meier Johnson our PR person on the thread. Like you
   we believe there is a great positive story here.
 

 IMO Pat Meier is the typical Public Relation crap and does not match to  
 the company philosophy of Openmoko Inc. at all.
 I just checking some announcements of the past of Pat Meier concerning  
 Openmoko and realize they have a lot of fantasy and free imagination to  
 create facts and words. I dont like these kind of bullshit information  
 generators.

 Christoph

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Re: Freerunner's Future

Thanks Christoph for your clarification.  I have a minor quibble with 
your characterization.
When Openmoko started as a project in FIC, it started with a Vision. 
That vision was to create a open mobile
phone. Its the job of marketing to message that vision to the customer. 
Thats what
we did. Very early on, however, we realized that  we could position the 
product ( not the company) in one of two ways:

1. Its a mobile Phone First, and a multi purpose platform secondarily

2. Its a multi purpose platform first, and a phone secondarily.

If you read carefully through interviews and materials we put out you'll 
see that
we chose #1 as opposed to number two. That is, we choose to emphasize 
the phone
aspects as opposed to the multi purpose aspects. Over an over again you 
will hear
us saying that its more than a phone. But, this message was not in the 
foreground.

That was a marketing decision that was
hard to make. The problem with #2 as I saw it was this: When openmoko 
started
it started with Sean's Vision. Free the Phone. For me as marketing to 
insist that we market
this vision like #2  didnt make much sense. It's something that we 
struggled with throughout
the life of neo 1973 and FR.  Should we change our message about the 
phone and call it
a multi purpose device? should we change the vision of the company? If 
we suddenly
call FR a multi-purpose platform after years of saying it was a phone, 
what would the
community say. From late 2007 when Wolfganag and I joined to early 2008, 
before the launch of FR, Wolfgang, Sean and I debated this exact issue. 
And we even considered shipping FR with a Bootable linux and nothing 
else. The way I viewed it
was this. If we keep pushing down the phone path eventually the vision 
will come true.
So we tried everything to keep that vision alive, paring back on the 
software ( back to the basics)
the downside here was this: We might fail to deliver  according to the 
schedules we promised.
On the other hand, if I switched the message to  hey its multi purpose 
platform then
people would ask what about the phone you promised? Its basically a no win
situation. On one hand  we promise a phone and come up short, on the 
other hand we change
our promise altogether. In the end I own this marketing decision and any 
blame you want
to ascribe to it. As I saw it as long as I work dilgently to keep the 
promise and vision alive
I am doing the right thing. So even now as I try to enable people to 
carry the vision
forward, whether its 5 guys working on Gta02 or other things I am 
working on, I am working
to keep that original promise. I could have choosen the other path. I 
could have said  hey, I know we designed it as a phone,
promised a phone from day one, but what the heck, lets just call it a 
multi purpose platform
In the end at the Embedded systems conference we gave this message a try.

On a personal note. I'd like to thank you for your support and hard work. 




Christoph Pulster wrote:
 the best path foreword is to turn the future of the Freerunner over to
 the community.
 

 I always have problems to define community. Speaking in numbers,
 I see ONE active Mailinglist (here) and nothing more worth to mention.
 The GTA03core list consists of 5 active people feeding some strange CAD  
 software, this community list has -lets guess- 1000 active everydayt  
 readers and 100 contributors, that's all !?
 Based on this, your idea to base the future of the Freerunner to a  
 community is a dead born baby.

 IMO you say community but you mean VAR = value-added-resellers.
 Openmoko's big marketing mistake was to announce Freerunner as a mobile  
 phone instead a FOSS based multi-purpose plattform.
 No VAR's, no sales. Thats the sad point we have reached now.

 Christoph

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Re: MP3 patents (was: Freerunner's Future)

I am somewhat constrained in what I am able to say. On one view there is 
the position,
held by some, that any hardware that is merely CAPABLE of mp3 decode is 
required
to apply for a license.  MP3 was removed from our images long ago and 
from the
repositories. The requirements of the license agreement, without going 
into details, were beyond
our financial means.


Al Johnson wrote:
 On Friday 05 June 2009, Christoph Pulster wrote:
   
 It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in
 support of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with
 support in areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal
 side (trademarks).
   
 Please remember the patent infridgements concerning MP3 (www.sisvel.it).
 Openmoko Inc. did not solve this issue until today.
 As a result, all sales inside EU are patent infridgments, all reseller
 inside EU community have to live with the fact, that local customs seize
 their Freerunner order anytime.
 

 Openmoko removed the mp3 codecs from the images they supply, and from their 
 repositories, causing frustration for many. I don't know what image they now 
 ship with, but would be surprised if they haven't removed the mp3 codecs from 
 that too. If it doesn't contain the codec it can't infringe the patent. What 
 more do you expect them to do?




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Re: Freerunner's Future

2009-06-04 Thread Steve Mosher

  Thanks Jeremy for your kind words. I've copied pat meier Johnson our
PR person on the thread. Like you we believe there is a great positive 
story here. In addition, I've copied some of the key people in the
Openmoko community to get their reaction to your ideas

Jeremy McNaughton wrote:
 Layoffs are always sad, and never an easy decision to make.  To those
 who are leaving the company, thanks for the great work.  I wish the
 best for your future endeavours and hope that you are able to remain
 in the community in some way.
 
 I know I haven't really contributed much to the project.  I'm not much
 of a programmer and only have time to poke around on the phone every
 other weekend or so.  Still, I've read almost every thread on the
 mailing list and have learned a great deal.
 
 I do have a fair bit of experience doing media relations for local
 grassroots organizations and non-profits.  My experience isn't with
 software or technology, it's with anti-poverty activism and social
 service work.  Nonetheless, I have some feedback based on some
 non-tech community organizing to share.
 
 Handing development of the Freerunner over to the community is a big
 deal.  There is a lot of opportunity here to get good press for both
 Openmoko Inc. and the community.
 
 The way I see it, giving the phone to the community is every bit as
 radical as launching an open source phone was in the first place.  The
 Openmoko community is now coordinating development of an updated
 Freerunner (using Free software), there are multiple distros, lots of
 apps, multiple phone gui apps.  Not only that, but the mailing lists
 are far from stagnant, and outside of openmoko.org, other parts of the
 broader Openmoko community have their own mailing lists, wikis and
 tracs.
 
 The key point here is that Openmoko succeeded in building a community
 around its product.  This is no easy task.  Companies and
 organizations with more resources behind them have tried this and not
 succeeded nearly as well as Openmoko has.  For this the company should
 be commended.  There's definitely a newsworthy story here as well.
 
 Naysayers might look at Openmoko handing responsibility for the
 Freerunner to the community as a death knell for the project, or proof
 that an open source phone can't work.  Instead, it seems the
 Freerunner is transitioning from a phone that was designed in house
 and then open sourced, to a phone for which the hardware itself is
 designed by an open source community.  That's huge!
 
 There's a big difference between how the Freerunner was developed and
 how the gta02-core is being developed, and that means that once again
 Openmoko is breaking new ground.
 
 It may be a little early to bring this message to the media.  It
 probably makes sense to let the community have a chance to formalize a
 bit, develop some structure.  A Openmoko Foundation maybe?
 
 Anyways, once the dust settles maybe Openmoko could make a big
 announcement about how the thriving community is in the process of
 taking over development of the phone.  It could be a chance for
 Openmoko to get some good press for being innovative and altruistic.
 It could also be a huge boon for the community, as it raises awareness
 about the work being done and reaches out to potential new members.
 Not to mention reminding people of all the incredible work that has
 been done with these phones so far.
 
 Openmoko is a success story.  Despite all the frustrations and delays,
 a new community that develops open source phone technology has been
 created.  In the FLOSS podcast interview a few weeks ago (I think)
 Sean spoke about how the Openmoko has reduced a lot of barriers to
 phone development, potentially allowing the kind of garage workshop
 innovations that led companies like Hewlett Packard or Apple.
 Facilitating the community and that kind of development just lowered
 one more barrier.
 
 
 Well, that's my 2 cents.
 
 
 Jeremy McNaughton
 
 
 On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 3:20 PM, Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org wrote:
 Thanks for your update, Sean!

 It's more than welcome to see Openmoko Inc. is still very much in support
 of the Freerunner/GTA02 and will provide the community with support in
 areas like the hosting infrastructure as well as the legal side (trademarks).

 I'm happy to see this transition and willing to help wherever I can.

 Regards and thank you once again,
Harald
 --
 - Harald Welte lafo...@gnumonks.org   http://laforge.gnumonks.org/
 
 Privacy in residential applications is a desirable marketing option.
  (ETSI EN 300 175-7 Ch. A6)

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Re: Openmoko Neo FreeRunner GTA02 versions A5 A6 Audio Buzz - Quality Enhancement Service

2009-06-04 Thread Steve Mosher

 Thanks Brian.

  


Brian Fuller wrote:
 Hello Openmoko Community!

 As users of the Openmoko Neo FreeRunner GTA02 versions A5  A6, you  
 may have experienced an audio buzz while making a phone call.   
 Openmoko has identified the issue and upgraded the hardware to fix  
 this issue.  The GTA02 version A7 phones are now available and include  
 this fix.

 In response to this audio buzz issue, Openmoko has implemented a  
 program by which owners of GTA02 version A5  A6 FreeRunners can have  
 their phones reworked to an electrical revision similar to version  
 A7.  All owners of version A5  A6 FreeRunners are eligible for this  
 program. SDG Systems (SDG), the US Master Distributor of the  
 FreeRunner, will be performing the necessary revision work.

 To review the details of this program and to participate, please go to  
 the SDG online store located at www.sdgsystems.com, select Openmoko on  
 the Catalog page, select Buy Now for the Neo FreeRunner versions A5  
  A6 Audio Buzz - Quality Enhancement Service, and complete the  
 registration and checkout process.  For each phone returned for  
 rework, you will receive a complimentary FreeRunner replacement  
 battery to offset your shipping fees.  For those interested in  
 purchasing additional phones, coupon code 5CZ8HT54, redeemable only at  
 the SDG online store, is available for $30 off the retail price of  
 $389 for the version A7 FreeRunner.  The coupon code has no quantity  
 restrictions and expires on 7/31/09.

 Participants' phones needing reworked MUST be returned to SDG by  
 Wednesday, July 15, 2009, to qualify for this program.

 For any additional assistance or questions, please email 
 buzz...@sdgsystems.com 
 .

 We appreciate your cooperation as we work to resolve this matter.

 Sincerely,
 SDG Systems  Koolu, Inc.






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Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique

I Wonder if you actually need to implement a visual triangle or if a 
triangular touch area would work just as well?

And I wonder how tighly the patent is written around the concept of a 
triangle.. Perhaps shave off a tiny prtion of the tip of the triangle 
and you have a parallelogram... hmm just a tiny portion.. say a two 
pixel wide section

hmmm

Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote:
 On Wed, Jun 03, 2009 at 05:27:00PM +1200, Robin Paulson wrote:
 apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors.

 http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/

 i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think

 now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything
 other than square keys?
 
 Made by an idiot, article written by another.
 
 
   A British inventor has submitted a patent application for a
   wacky touchscreen keyboard design which
 
 inventor? patent?
 
 Idiots.
 
 Rui
 
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Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique

Perhaps he thinks by presenting the keyboard in that way  you will be 
more careful in where you tap your finger..

Worth a test.. but in theory I agree with you.. more dead space = more 
failed keypresses..im touching put nothing is happening...

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:27:00 +1200 Robin Paulson robin.paul...@gmail.com 
 said:
 
 apparently, triangular buttons produce less errors.

 http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2009/06/02/crocodile_keyboard/

 i'm not totally convinced, but it would be worth a go, i think
 
 he's smoking crack. his logic (that more deadspace makes for less mis-presses)
 is just wrong. it makes for fewer presses. you hit the deadspace much more
 often and press nothing. if you simply expanded each key to just fill the
 rectangular region it ocupies (which it effectively does as that space is
 unused and dead) hen you get a no less accurate keyboard than what he as, but
 somewhere were u are MORE likely to actually hit a key as opposed to hit
 nothing.
 
 the kbd just makes no sense. making keys bigger is simply the way to make them
 more accurate to hit. if that isn't an option an you still do a kbd-style
 keyboard, then having some sort of guessing algorithm that guesses what you
 meant to hit is all you have left.
 
 doing a non qwerty style is the only other way you have a way out as you
 could have fewer keys, now easier to hit, but you may need to hit them 
 multiple
 types (normal abc, def, ghi etc. number keypad style), and even here to avoid
 the multiple hits, you need again a guessing algorithm (t9). :)
 
 now, is it possible to coerce raster's keyboard into using anything
 other than square keys?

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Re: Tuxbrain offers Neo FreeRunner in three flavors

A7 is sitting at the factory waiting for orders

Timo Jyrinki wrote:
 2009/6/3 David Reyes Samblas Martinez da...@tuxbrain.com:
 Devel Upgraded Version(A6+) at 259 EUR
 Retail Version(A7) at 299 EUR
 
 Great news! Are both A6+ and A7 available for shipment right way? Not
 that it would matter regarding A7, since A6+ is equivalent, but
 interested if A7 production runs have started now.
 
 At least I'll start recommending FreeRunner now to people to whom I've
 so far said to wait for the buzz-fixed version :)
 
 -Timo
 
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Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique

yes, you substitute one error for the other. the issue is the probablity 
of those errors and the time to correct..

no harm in testing the approach, if somebody has time on their hands

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:07:07 +0200 Marcel tan...@googlemail.com said:
 
 I simply want to try that design before sending it to hell, maybe it just 
 works fine... I agree with people who said this before: Hitting actually 
 dead space is less painful than hitting the wrong key and having to 
 backspace/stroke-left all the time, maybe even accidentally pressing other 
 keys while doing that.
 
 but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key you
 intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now 
 dead
 space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u 
 have
 more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50% of 
 he
 area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly  for mis-types now where you
 would have hit another key there is less area to hit too).
 
 so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost 
 mis-hit
 area too.
 
 one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then notice
 that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter 
 again
 (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind
 

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Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique

before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to 
collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable 
theory, I think.

Michal Brzozowski wrote:
 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
 
 but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key
 you
 intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now
 dead
 space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u
 have
 more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50%
 of he
 area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly  for mis-types now where
 you
 would have hit another key there is less area to hit too).

 so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost
 mis-hit
 area too.

 one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then
 notice
 that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter
 again
 (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind

 
 I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually
 trying it.
 
 Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if
 we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the
 keys or something.
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique



Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:10:49 +0200 Michal Brzozowski ruso...@poczta.fm said:
 
 
 I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually
 trying it.
 
 i theorize because hat's what i've done for decades doing code, ui etc. i sit
 and think about how something will work months or years before i do it. that's
 how i figure out how to make something that could be fast in what it does - by
 theorizing on usage patterns, internal data and logic flow etc.etc. months or
 years before it ever actually works (and then smile as all the thinking paid
 off).
 
 Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if
 we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the
 keys or something.
 
 patents are an area which could literally wipe out my entire life's savings if
 taken to court, shown to willfully infringe. you need to check up on patent
 law and the sonsequences. if you willfully infringe (KNOW something is
 patented and then use it anyway), you don't have a leg to stand on in a court.
 maybe you have nothing to lose - i definitely do and won't touch something i
 KNOW is patented. better never tell me it's patented - then at least i have a
 leg to stand on.

yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at 
patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit.

hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents 
(company forced me to), wanna read them?
 

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Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:13:12 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said:

   
 yep. triple damages. When doing 3D graphics we NEVER looked at 
 patents, otherwise we couldnt build shit.
 

 oh indeed. the only way to go is plead ignorance. if it comes to court without
 a cease and desist you will very likely get off (with then just a cease and
 desist) unless they can prove you willfully infringed - i.e. - you knew about
 the patent beforehand or at any time up to and beyond actually
 shipping/distributing product. you couldn't sanely be successfully sued for
 infringing a patent you never knew about. but... if you did. woe betide ye! :)
 so as you say steve - a real life example there in a real commercial setting.
 its better to be utterly ignorant and hope for the best. it may be you 
 infringe
 on patents and the holders just dont care, thus will not sue. :)

   
 hehe.. dirty little secret raster.. I got two software patents 
 (company forced me to), wanna read them?
 

 NO! never! i shall poke my eyes out first and fill my ears
 with cement! :)

 /me heads back to his safe patent ignorance zone :)
   
haha.. your gunna go to some anonymous internet cafe and look it up now.


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Re: a new keyboard - discuss and critique

yep.  you have to vary a whole host of test conditions.

 Subjects: those with touch screen experience: those without
 Order of presentation:
 Size of subjects finger
 How they type..for me I've always struggled between being a thumb typer and
and index finger typer.. neither works for me very well since I have big 
fingers, bad eyes,
and shakes from drinking too much coffee

on the accuracy and time  one might find that certain content (say SMS) 
might do better
with one format as opposed to another..who knows?

Could waste a whole summer doing a test like that. Long ago raster I 
actually did test
design for UIs in fighter aircraft. nasty business. fun if you get paid 
for it, but not
how i'd spend my free time. So I aint volunteering.

Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:08:51 -0700 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com said:

 indeed. i believe its not worth bothering. so i am not going to invest any
 time into trying it (to try it i'd have to build it... and that will use time)
 as my theorising says to me it wont help. if someone else who thinks it
 really is the bees knees... then build it, try it, test it and prove it! get a
 non-biased 3rd party to go use the kbd to enter common input or a phone 
 (emails,
 sms's, etc.) and then time over maybe 50 specific messages how long it takes 
 to
 get a 100% accurate entry of it. of course make the test unbiased by swapping
 which kbd they use first t enter in each test (first test kbd a then b, in 
 test
 2, b then a etc.).

 if you really think this kbd (on a touchscreen) is the bees knees - prove it! 
 :)

   
 before you test you need a good theory. that way you know what data to 
 collect. raster has a theory why it wont be better. That's a testable 
 theory, I think.

 Michal Brzozowski wrote:
 
 2009/6/3 Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com

   
 but u'll hit dead space (nothing) about 50% more often than the actual key
 you
 intended to hit now (as 50% of the area it would have normally used is now
 dead
 space). for a physical kbd it might help as u have better tactile feel as u
 have
 more edge near the finger, but for a touchscreen - all you do is lose 50%
 of he
 area you had before for hitting keys. (admittedly  for mis-types now where
 you
 would have hit another key there is less area to hit too).

 so you lose more keypresses (you lost 50% of the hit area), but you lost
 mis-hit
 area too.

 one way or another - you press, then quickly press next key, but then
 notice
 that the previous key wasn't hit - u still need to backspace and re-enter
 again
 (possibly missing again). you just give up 1 kind of error for another kind

 
 I'm amazed how much you guys can theorize about the idea before actually
 trying it.

 Is it because of allergy to patents? I bet we could use the general idea if
 we wanted to, without violating the patent. Just change the shape of the
 keys or something.



 

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Re: Freerunner's Future

  Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something
unique.  i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize
the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere
here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community 
  on what OM can do to support the community efforts.

I am leaning toward putting Werner's FAQ on the wiki  and also having
a wiki entry for  a community wish list where the wishes are directed
at how OM can help.

Anybody who is better at wiki than me volunteer, please.

Steve

Sean Moss-Pultz wrote:
 Dear Community,
 
 As some of you have heard, we had a layoff at Openmoko on Monday, May
 25th. First of all let me second the comments made here congratulating
 the Openmoko team on all that was accomplished. And let me add that
 everything accomplished was only possible because of the amazing
 efforts of the community.
 
 Bringing the Neo products to market, first the 1973 and then the
 Freerunner, has been the most exceptional experience of our lives. I
 can undeniably say that the most important thing we have learned over
 these years is that the power of people bound by ideals, rather than
 contracts, cannot be underestimated. These phones are your success.
From simple things like group sales to complex undertakings like
 developing and maintaining entire distributions, you made this happen.
 You always came through for us. As CEO, I have to determine the best
 path forward for our phone business. And after long discussions with
 my key people and Board, we've decided that the best path foreword is
 to turn the future of the Freerunner over to the community.
 
 We've always said that the talent and creativity of those outside the
 company is superior to that inside the company. We have stuck to these
 principles. We've have opened up more than any other phone, from any
 other company, in the history of this industry. Every time we chose
 openness over internal control, we have been rewarded.
 
 Former Openmoko employees have already started redesigning the
 Freerunner hardware (gta02-core) using only Free Software tools.
 Werner Almesberger, working with many others, has made great progress.
 Recently, we have released more information to accelerate their
 efforts. In the coming weeks, all the design information will be
 handed over to the community along with all of openmoko.org (Wiki,
 GIT, Trac, Planet, ...). Openmoko Inc. then will act as the sponsor of
 this effort. We will continue to fund all necessary server
 infrastructure and support, in areas where corporate help is needed,
 future open phone development. (Parts of this process will require
 legal work - so I request your patience.)
 
 I am extremely excited about the idea of an entirely community-built
 open phone. Especially since, when the next design is complete, it
 will have the benefits of everything uncovered since the Freerunner
 shipped last July. It will be buzz free, glamo free, and free of the
 recamping bug (#1024) - which I am happy to announce has been solved
 this past week. We promise to support these efforts with additional
 resources such as components to build prototypes of the new design. We
 will help to empower you to build the open phone of our future.
 
 After all this, there is one last thing that Openmoko the company can
 do: we can enable the community to use the Openmoko brand and
 trademark for these efforts. For us, the Openmoko brand is synonymous
 with the people who built the products: Harald, Mickey, Werner,
 Raster, all of my coworkers in our Taiwan office, Sureda, Tuxbrain,
 Bearstech, and countless others. I personally want to give an extra
 special thanks to Steve Mosher who has taught me so much about
 marketing, writing, and well...life. Without his guidance, this all
 would have only been an idea in my notebook.
 
 I have asked Steve to lead an effort, over the next few weeks, to
 gather input from the community on how best to implement this
 transition. (He will follow up shortly on the community mailing list.)
 As always we can expect some negative comments, that comes with the
 territory. But we believe a community that owns everything of
 importance, with regard to the Freerunner, will focus efforts and
 energies on the future - not the past.
 
 Sales of the current FreeRunner (A7), will continue as before. We have
 plenty more in stock. Now that the phone is freed, and its future
 entrusted to the hands of the community, Openmoko Inc. will start
 another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized
 our company to go do that task. Please wish us the very best of luck!
 More details will follow in the coming months...
 
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Sean Moss-Pultz
 
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Re: Freerunner's Future

No, it will not impact the program.

   I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are 
details to be worked out so watch this space.

1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back.
2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to
perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program)
3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days.
4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on 
the matter in 5 minutes of my mail.
5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen.

I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns
approach, so we dont re invent the wheel.

I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be 
disappointed.

Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and 
imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain.
A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep 
customers happy.

Steve

Lon Lentz wrote:
   Steve,
 
   Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to
 implement all of the pending hardware fixes?
 
 
 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:
 
  Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something
 unique.  i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize
 the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere
 here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community
  on what OM can do to support the community efforts.


 

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Re: Freerunner's Future

  Community,

To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by 
Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an
appropriate place in the wiki.

Any takers?

After the FAQ gets incorporated then we can start to fill it up.

Also, I want to start a wish list or Suggestion list for what kinds
of things OM can do to smooth this transition.

here is Werners List. Adjust as you see fit for presentation.


- I'm using OM2008/2009 now. Will this distribution still be
maintained ? Should I switch ? How ? What will change, what
do I have to learn/unlearn ?

- What will happen with FSO ? Will development continue ?
Will a distribution carry it ?

- What will happen with Paroli ? Will development continue ?
Will a distribution carry it ?

- How will the kernel be maintained ?

- Will Openmoko continue selling FreeRunners ? For how long ?

- I have a purchase/return/warranty/etc. in progress with Openmoko
Inc.  or a distributor. What will happen ?

- I have buzz/#1024/no bass/etc. Can I still get it fixed ?
How ?

- Will the Openmoko Internet resources, Wiki, mailing lists, SVN,
git, downloads, people, trac, etc., be shut down ?

- Will project B continue ?

- What's the future of Open phone hardware without Openmoko Inc. ?


Steve Mosher wrote:
 No, it will not impact the program.
 
I just sealed the deal on that this morning! of course there are 
 details to be worked out so watch this space.
 
 1. we sent out instructions to all the disty a while back.
 2. one of our North american partners had requested the package to
 perform the work ( like Dr. Ns program)
 3. because of the layoff the mail went unanswered for a few days.
 4. the disty wrote me directly and I hooked them up with sean who was on 
 the matter in 5 minutes of my mail.
 5. Sean has assigned a person to make this happen.
 
 I'm working with that disty to make sure that they benefit from Dr. Ns
 approach, so we dont re invent the wheel.
 
 I know you guys have been very patient with us. I trust you wont be 
 disappointed.
 
 Finally, I would like to thank Dr. N for his tireless efforts and 
 imagination in getting this done. And lets not forget david at Tuxbrain.
 A bunch of people tried things they have never done before to keep 
 customers happy.
 
 Steve
 
 Lon Lentz wrote:
   Steve,

   Is this going to affect OM trying to find us Americans someone to
 implement all of the pending hardware fixes?


 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 1:30 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:

  Thanks Sean for the kind words and for the opportunity to do something
 unique.  i spent some time thinking about how I want to organize
 the community responses. I have a list of FAQs from werner ( somewhere
 here in the pile of mail) and I want to solicit ideas from the community
  on what OM can do to support the community efforts.


 
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Re: Freerunner's Future

Hi Nelson,

Thanks good to hear from you. I really enjoyed the pictures you gave 
me from our
last time together in Taipei. Anything you can do to help will be 
appreciated.  

Steve

Nelson Castillo wrote:
 On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:
   
  Community,

To start off I have this list of proposed FAQs kindly generated by
 Werner. I'm going to ask for a volunteer to incorpoate this into an
 appropriate place in the wiki.

 Any takers?
 

 Hello Steve.

   
 - How will the kernel be maintained ?
 

 I'll ask for feedback about this in the kernel mailing list and help
 with the FAQ wiki page (If someone else wants to help also please by
 all means do). I'll send the email today.

 Nelson.-
   


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Re: Debuzzing

Joerg, Dr. N and I have been discussing this. There is no need for the 
HWD fix of 1024 as there is a software fix.
The hwdware fix of 1024  would require much more work than the 
debuzzing. Joerg recommends against it.
I would agree.  I can have him come on here and explain. Even if the fix 
were required we would still have
to do a lot of work before it could be fielded. So, dont wait. get your 
phone buzz fixed and use the software fix
for 1024. A hardware fix is not likely.

Tha_Man wrote:

 Ole Langbehn wrote:
   
 Hello Nikolaus,

 what are the odds of including the hw fix for bug #1024 (oscillating 
 recamping) into the procedure once it's official (or even before that)? 
 I'm trying to decide if I wait a little bit more with sending in my FR to 
 squash both issues at the same time.

 Regards,

 -- 

 
 This is a good question, I'm wondering the same thing: is there a chance
 Golden Delicious Computers will offer a fix to bug #1024 within a few weeks
 and if so, will it be possible to send in your FR and have both bugs fixed
 at the same time?

 I'm considering sending my FR in for the debuzzing fix, but the latter case
 would obviously have my preference :-)

 Kind regards,
 Jeroen a.k.a. Tha_Man
   


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Re: Debuzzing

Agreed. I've not heard about the jump in standby time, but joerg 
mentioned something about that ( as i recall).
arne anka wrote:
 as there is a software fix.
 
 imo it is still a workaround, not a fix.
 and standby time jumping up 25% looks a lot to me.
 
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Re: Debuzzing

  Getting a focused effort in the US has been problematic. The reason is
simple. The vast majority of sales in the US have been through the OM 
store. The disty, therefore, don't have the same motivation that say
Dr. N has. neither do they have the resources required. The best thing,
the most logical thing would be for OM in the US to set up a program
just like Dr. N did.

The problem? OM usa is me. Part of the reason the deal worked with Dr. N
is that he was able to do all the detailed ground work required to get 
this done. I would have to execute the fix by myself. That's no simple
feat, but now that Dr. N has shown the way, I can look into copying his
effort. basically I'm a marketing guy, but if need be I'll be the 
customer support, feild rework, logistics guy.

In the US it might require a different approach, but I can start to look 
into it.


Ori Pessach wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 12:33 AM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:
 
 Joerg, Dr. N and I have been discussing this. There is no need for the
 HWD fix of 1024 as there is a software fix.
 The hwdware fix of 1024  would require much more work than the
 debuzzing. Joerg recommends against it.
 I would agree.  I can have him come on here and explain. Even if the fix
 were required we would still have
 to do a lot of work before it could be fielded. So, dont wait. get your
 phone buzz fixed
 
 
 Steve,
 
 I would love to, but how? I live in the US, the vendor I bought my phone
 from has been apparently ignoring my emails about this and when I called
 them to ask they told me that they're not getting answers from Openmoko.
 It's been over 9 months since I first contacted them about the buzz.
 
 --Ori Pessach
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Debuzzing

See inline below

Ori Pessach wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 10:05 AM, Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com wrote:
 
  Getting a focused effort in the US has been problematic. The reason is
 simple. The vast majority of sales in the US have been through the OM
 store. The disty, therefore, don't have the same motivation that say
 Dr. N has. neither do they have the resources required. The best thing,
 the most logical thing would be for OM in the US to set up a program
 just like Dr. N did.

 The problem? OM usa is me. Part of the reason the deal worked with Dr. N
 is that he was able to do all the detailed ground work required to get
 this done. I would have to execute the fix by myself. That's no simple
 feat, but now that Dr. N has shown the way, I can look into copying his
 effort. basically I'm a marketing guy, but if need be I'll be the
 customer support, feild rework, logistics guy.

 In the US it might require a different approach, but I can start to look
 into it.

 
 Steve, I do realize that coordinating this is a challenge, but in this case
 it seems like the vendor I bought my phone from is trying to work with
 Openmoko, and isn't getting a satisfactory response, or any response at all
 if I take their version of the story to be true - which I have no reason not
 to.
   Well, I put together a rework plan for all the distributors. It was a 
program to rework existing stock. That was phase 1. That program was 
supposed to be administered by 1 employee at OM. I'll have to check
and see if that task was completed. PHASE TWO of the program was to 
figure out a way to rework devices already in the hands of end users.
Dr. N and I have been discussing an approach for a while. And he has
just proved that it can work. Understand, Dr. N set up his whole 
program: he found the technician. he got a quote. he prepare his website
to take orders for the program. When he had that all set up he came to
me and said: here is my proposal: the customer does this, GDC does that,
and OM compensates me in this fashion. So, Sean and I said yes to the
deal. That's basically what it would take. You can just have the vendor
write me directly with their proposal. If they pattern their proposal
after Dr. Ns proposal then I have a good basis to make my case. But you
have to understand the issue of scale here. Dr. N offers the service a 
larger pool of customers. So his technician, of course, can offer a 
better price. There is a learning curve in doing this fix. If your
vendor sold 100 phones, he can expect to get 5 people to mail in phones
for a buzz fix. To service these 5 people he has to do a bunch of work.
he would be better off just shipping you a A7 for free. But if he
openly offered exchanges, then people without the buzz problem could 
just take advantage of the situation.
 
 Since I've been waiting for a fix for nearly 10 months, I feel I've been
 extremely patient. But even my patience (which is otherwise legendary, I can
 assure you) runs out.
 
 What would you suggest that I do at this point?

  Have your vendor write me directly. I can see what can be done. They 
would have to, at minimum, pattern their proposal after Dr. Ns proposal.
Find a technician to do the rework. get a quote from him. Establish a
way for US owners to ship their product in. Arrange for the rework
and adminster it. negotiate a reimbursement package from OM. etc.

other ideas?
 
 --Ori Pessach
 

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Re: Debuzzing

YA,
  When I first started putting the program together I asked Tony Tu to 
get me a test protocal for incoming. Engineering ( and others) then 
pointed out that the Buzz problem was conditioned by enviromental 
factors that we CND ( could not duplicate) such that a phone with Buzz
in the feild may not exhibit it at the test site ( For example, I never
had phones buzz for me, even when sean flew out with a phone to show
me the buzz) And a phone without buzz in the field may exhibit it at the 
test site. So, I dropped the requirement for an incoming test protocal.
My logic was this. The circuit was known to manifest the problem under
certain circumstances. Its clear that RF gets on the line and clear also 
that the CAP fix, if properly applied, reduces the symptoms, both in 
theory and in practice. So, if we offer the buzz fix to all, some small
fraction of people who do not have the problem will still want the fix.
If they are willing to part with their phone for a week or so to get a 
fix they dont need, then go ahead and fix it.

Werner Almesberger wrote:
 Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Aother note to all who read this: the Buzz rework is only required if  
 you have the Buzz problem.
 
 Hmm, wasn't there an environmental component as well, i.e., band and
 signal strength ? So changes in the network, e.g., traveling, moving,
 or the provider messing with things, might bring buzz to phones that
 still lacked that experience.
 
 - Werner
 
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Re: [Android] Koolu Beta7 was: Some problems with Android on GTA02

2009-05-30 Thread Steve 'dillo Okay (Roadknight Mobility Labs)


Has anybody else had problems receiving SMS ?
I flashed to Koolu Beta 7 the other day and can send w/ no problem but  
haven't received any text messages
since I reflashed. Calls seem fine for me.
---Steve

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Re: Buzz is Fixed

2009-05-27 Thread Steve Mosher

I want to take some time to thank a bunch of people for this.

  Joerg. People have no idea how persistent he was in insisting
that he had a fix for this and then writing an SOP.
  Tony Tu. While he worked at OM Tony helped me get the fix verified.
  All the volunteers who put their own FR under the soldering iron.
I only had to give one guy a new phone for borking up his
personal unit.
  David from Tuxbrain. David was instrumental in the first feild tests 
of the buzz fix. Without him we would not have had the confidence to 
move forward.
Daniel: Daniel was also a pioneer in testing out the buzz fix and bring 
it to customers.
Dr. N. Dr. N has rolled out a great process for getting your phone buzz
fixed.
OM disty and the community list. Thank you for your patience. Back in 
early december Joerg showed me his buzz fix. It took longer than I 
wanted to get this fix feilded, but I'm glad to see that his solution is 
finally making people happy.

..And he and I spent time talking about another hairy bug that 
day:  #1024.

Jakob wrote:
 On Tue, May 26, 2009 at 9:10 PM, Michel mic...@xternal.nl wrote:
 Hi,

 For some positive news, I received my FreeRunner back today from Golden
 Delicious Computer. They preformed the buzzfix for me and guess what?

 IT WORKED \0/\0/\0/\0/\0/\0/

 SeeYa,
 Michel

 --
 This message has been scanned for viruses and
 dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
 believed to be clean.
 
 Congratulations!
 I'm still waiting patiently for mine to come back :)
 
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Re: Visit at Openmoko

2009-05-26 Thread Steve Mosher

 Thanks,

   As you can well imagine Sean and I are working on an official 
statement. This time around a lot
   more is involved than just us writing post so please be patient. This 
week is pretty hectic for me
  and Sean, I'm travelling out of town today ( SF) and then I'll be back 
for an Android conference on
  wensday and thursday.

Steve

Vasco Névoa wrote:
 Hey, take it easy, stop going berserk, and wait for the announcement.
 They will talk to us when they're good and ready, so save your energy for 
 then, and stop raising confusion.
 Be civilised. Be smart. Be silent (until necessary).

 Citando Moko Mania mokom...@gmail.com: 

   
 we are very much alive and well -- That's official. Thanks for caring   is 
 this MokoSarcasm? According to Whoiswho on the wiki almost everybody got 
 laid off. Is the design team behind the layoffs? Are you part of the design 
 team that took our raster already? If it's true then there is no more kernel 
 support, no more software releases. How about customer support?   Who is 
 alive and well? The design team that cannot even design a simple functioning 
 phone UI? Is your statement the only official statement we will hear for how 
 long? Please don't tell me that everybody who ever did anything good for the 
 community was fired.
 


   
 

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Re: Debuzzing

2009-05-23 Thread Steve Mosher

When OM throws a party nobody leaves with a buzz.

 


Yorick Moko wrote:
 thanks for the update!
 i'm gonna miss the buzz ;-)

 On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 6:30 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 h...@computer.org wrote:
   
 Am 23.05.2009 um 14:04 schrieb Yorick Moko:

 
 any news on the repair?
   
 Rework has been started this week and the first units have been
 shipped back.

 
 my order status says for quite some time 'Freerunner received.'
 is everything going according to shedule?
   
 Mostly.
 We did have a public holiday in Germany on Thursday (and a voluntary
 holiday on Friday) this week, so this has delayed completion of the
 first batch this week by the SMD rework company. But I am sure we will
 have the first major batch reworked by mid of next week.

 
 just curious
   
 I completely understand...

 
 y

 On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 2:22 PM, Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller
 h...@computer.org wrote:
   
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Re: Ain't it funny..

2009-05-12 Thread Steve Mosher

roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote:
 On 8/05/2009 6:58 PM, David Garabana Barro wrote:
   
 Some time ago, I have recommended several friends*NOT*  to buy a Freerunner,
 because software was not ready. It was a great toy for me, but my friends
 would get desperated. I think it's being open minded (and being a good
 friend;)

 If someone feels raped, he can press charges to OM. But complaining on a
 community mailing list won't solve his problems. Don't you think?
 

 Way to chime in at the tail end. It's obvious with Dale's recent emails 
 that he's frustrated that nobody was listening or taking him seriously.
   
  Well, you are assuming facts not in evidence. Dale's case is somewhat 
special. The highlights are
 that dale wanted return after owning the product for 9 months ( more or 
less as I recall). The case
was complicated by the fact that Dale bought as part of a group purchase 
which means his name is
not in our customer database. rather the group leader's name is in the 
database. So, we have no way of
guaranteeing that a refund made to the group leader would be passed onto 
Dale. A while back I believe Tony Tu
tried to rectify the situation, but the offer he made was unacceptable 
to Dale. I'm here in TPE and I will
be discussing it with Sean.
 I witnessed his contributions and willingness to provide feedback, where 
 he was met with semantics and useless responses that then pushed him to 
 publicise his opinion and his situation. All still very obvious if you 
 have paid any attention.

 You're love for your device and your 'opinion' in no way solves the 
 problem that he had no outlet for recouping on a falsely advertised 
 device. Our laws entitle us to have our money refunded in such a 
 situation but this does not transcend international borders.

 I'd like to know where it is exactly you'd voice your dissent in such a 
 situation. I'm sure Dale can present you with an audit trail of emails, 
 trac tickets and the like, long before any of this actually started 
 publicly.

 To top it off, I reckon Dale would have assimilated (now that's a nasty 
 word over here) had Lorn admitted to the failings of QTE and been 
 willing to agree that people have differing opinions on the software's 
 'usefulness', none of this would have ever happened.

 The one thing that should never occurred, and I imagine there are a few 
 people that agree here, is that the FR should never have been advertised 
 as a phone. Potential to become a phone maybe. This marketing oversight 
 would have saved a lot of trouble and time.
 I say oversight because the people who are supporting openmoko really 
 don't care whether it's a phone out of the box or not.

 Sarton

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Re: It Ain't funny [Was: Ain't it funny..]

2009-05-12 Thread Steve Mosher

ya I got the mail. I'm in TPE. It's on my todo list. Watch for a mail.

Dale Maggee wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1


 Now you're just trying to confuse me... ;)

 ...I haven't received any reply to my off-list email yet... I presume
 you're looking into it?


 Steve Mosher wrote:
   
 Best of all is to avoid hyperbolic claims of totalitarian behavior all 
 together, since the claim, if true,
 will never see the light of pixels, and if false, is self refuting.

 That's my rhetorical observation for the day.


 Dale Maggee wrote:
 Shawn Rutledge wrote:
   
 
 On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Dale Maggee anti...@internode.on.net 
 wrote:
 
   
 Generally when I hear the word nazi used, it means totalitarian, not
 monster or mass murderer - think of the soup nazi in Seinfeld.
 That's what I meant. Not the other. *At All*. Sorry.
   
 
 That just goes to show the meaning has gotten diluted from overuse, 
 doesn't it.

 
   
 Absolutely, to the point that I wasn't even aware that there were other
 meanings you could read into it, and that's why I felt like such a dick
 once I had this pointed out to me.

 Like I said, I learned something, and as a consequence I'll need to find
 myself a new metaphor for totalitarian...
 
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Re: Ain't it funny..

2009-05-12 Thread Steve Mosher

roguem...@roguewrt.org wrote:
 On 12/05/2009 10:39 PM, Steve Mosher wrote:
   
Well, you are assuming facts not in evidence. Dale's case is somewhat
 special.
 

 You're right and I don't purport to be in possession of all the facts. 
 The 9 months for which he had the device in his possession, in my eyes, 
 signify his willingness to accept the interim short-comings of the 
 device, something he obviously feels penalised for
   
 Don't get me wrong Steve, I have the utmost respect for you, you've done 
 a great job handling everything that has occurred. I know I'd hate to 
 have to deal with what you have and I doubt I'd do it with such finesse.
   
Ah, you are being too kind. I look at it this way. I have to exhibit at 
least the same amount of patience as
out Customers have. 
 I still consider my purchase an investment in the future consolidation 
 of information and communication, with respect to standards and 
 standards adherence. Maybe not in my lifetime but we have to start 
 somewhere.
   
Thanks.
 Best regards,

 Sarton

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Re: [Om2009] testing Release 3

2009-05-11 Thread Steve Mosher

Thanks Risto,
   I just finished my review on Sunday and made many of the same points. 
The good news is
that  (after the long boot) it was very usable as a phone. There were of 
course some annoyances
and somethings in the IU paradigm that took some getting use to

Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 Hi!

 Thanks for this new release, really happy to see that only a short
 time (a week?) after the previous there's already a new release with
 bugs fixed. Release early, release often, as they say :)

 I wrote some points below to show what's good, what I concider as
 bug/problem and points to discuss/wishlist/something. I'm sure some of
 it has already been discussed, some of it is just me not knowing how
 to use it (which can mean that it's not easy to use or a
 manual/something is needed) and so on. I'm happy to receive comments!

 + This actually makes FR a simple, very working phone!! (I actually
 got a 10 min call from my mum. In the end I asked and she said there's
 a small echo left)
 + ability to turn off PIN check  change pin! (I think it's the first
 distro that can do it :)
 + WLAN-tool
 + manual suspend
 + decent resume speed

 - some mess sometimes in the top of the screen
 - The button to 'go back / go to previous screen' keeps changing: In
 the menu there's a 'back' button (different size in different views)
 but in the people etc one has to know to press the top bar to go back.
 - Empty I/O shows an 'edit' button.. maybe it should be hidden and
 instead a text 'no logged events' could be shown?
 - keylock missing
 ¤ Would it be possible to add a SMS button in the 'People' - contact
 view. Now clicking the number calls the user (intuitive? Why clicking
 the name nothing happens?). Maybe adding 'dial' and 'SMS' -buttons
 there just to make it clear.
 - If one by accidentally presses 'Enter in the PIN input view, it just
 accepts it and doesn't ask for PIN again.
 - wlan scan doesn't have a progress bar telling it's actually doing something
 - resume doesn't turn on the screen lights - one knows it's resumed
 only by touching the screen
 - GPRS settings: if one by accident clicks 'username', 'APN', or
 'password' instead of Connect, one actually has to re-type it because
 the 'back' button doesn't work.
 - There's nothing (no text/button) telling one should click in the
 black area to get to phonebook to select recipient in 'msgs' - '+' or
 'Tele'
 - Slow boot time (over 4min with Qi?)
 - the alsastatefile (kurppa.fi/freerunner/temp/gsmhandset.state_2009t3
 with Right PGA on control.63) is different from the latest 'working
 one' (with mic2) at
 http://docs.openmoko.org/trac/raw-attachment/ticket/2121/gsmhandset.state.new

 ¤ How to connect to a hidden WLAN network? How about encryptions?
 ¤ The numbers in the home view showing missed calls or received
 messages could be bigger/colorful/something or even say 'one missed
 call' or 'new SMS received'
 ¤ At some stage I saw the : in the time blinking, then it stopped. I
 think it either should blink or not but not keep changing what it does
 (without telling me what does it mean :)
 ¤ Is there a way to enable illume from command line?
 ¤ Icon that's shown before GSM network registration doesn't tell me
 anything. What does it actually represent?
 ¤ The only place where I was able to find colors was the yellow flash
 in the battery icon when recharging. Using colors in other places too
 would maybe do it easier to use?
 ¤ With hundreds of phone numbers it'd be great to be able to type at
 least the first letter, or two-three to be able to find the
 ¤ I got many 'can't init topbar/wlan/...' -messages telling that
 something failed (only on the first start)
 ¤ The date doesn't need the | -bars in the home view:  it's | Sunday,
 May 10, 2009 |-  the bars just make it more difficult to read
 ¤ Does paroli (already / in the future?) support icons in the menus?
 Either so that there would be a icon grid or like now but every line
 would have a small icon just to make it easier to use
 ¤ GPRS settings: Should the password be hidden? (I don't know if
 anyone is really interested in GPRS passwords..)
 ¤ GPRS settings: maybe APN should be 'internet' by default, I think
 it's the most common APN?
 ¤ GPRS settings: I'd recommend reordering the items so that the
 connect would be first or last in the list.
 ¤ I/O really doesn't tell for a normal people that it's actually the call 
 log..
 ¤ Msgs could be replaced with SMS, if something short has to be used
 ¤ Tele also doesn't make sense, I'd suggest using 'Dialer'
 ¤ How do I use the alarm? How do I change the time when to alert?
 ¤ Maybe also reordering the main menu so that the phone log would not
 be the first one?
 ¤ At some stage my FR just decided not to resume any more
 ¤ After the 10min call the UI died, I wasn't able to press any
 buttons, nothing happened. Then after waiting some minutes it started
 running again. Still the top left shows '100' instead of default or
 silent..

 So overall, concidering that

Re: It Ain't funny [Was: Ain't it funny..]

2009-05-11 Thread Steve Mosher

Best of all is to avoid hyperbolic claims of totalitarian behavior all 
together, since the claim, if true,
will never see the light of pixels, and if false, is self refuting.

That's my rhetorical observation for the day.


Dale Maggee wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Shawn Rutledge wrote:
   
 On Fri, May 8, 2009 at 9:12 AM, Dale Maggee anti...@internode.on.net wrote:
 
 Generally when I hear the word nazi used, it means totalitarian, not
 monster or mass murderer - think of the soup nazi in Seinfeld.
 That's what I meant. Not the other. *At All*. Sorry.
   
 That just goes to show the meaning has gotten diluted from overuse, doesn't 
 it.

 

 Absolutely, to the point that I wasn't even aware that there were other
 meanings you could read into it, and that's why I felt like such a dick
 once I had this pointed out to me.

 Like I said, I learned something, and as a consequence I'll need to find
 myself a new metaphor for totalitarian...
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Re: Ain't it funny..

2009-05-08 Thread Steve Mosher

Dale Maggee wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi Steve,

 I appreciate your replying to this thread.

 I would however point out that I believe that you should have already
 been aware of this issue before I raised it in this public mailing list:
 I sent three emails to Openmoko asking about getting a refund, and
 received no reply to any of them. I've pasted these emails below, after
 the ---BEGIN EMAIL THREAD--- Line. You were cc'd in two of these
 emails (the ones saying I've had no reply). I eventually got a
 response from Tony Tu on the trac ticket, at which point I stopped
 sending emails to you.
   
   Dale, as you can well imagine since I receive mail every single time 
a FR is ordered,
   since I receive mail every time we get a request for a return, since 
I receive mail from
   the community list and the developer list and since I received mail 
from  cont...@openmoko
   univers...@openmoko.. oh heck every public mail we have plus I have 
my email on every
   press release, you can well imagine that I might have forgotten your 
name. But I didn't.
   Two people handled the RMAs on product purchased from OM store. And 
with Tony on the
   job I just assumed it would handled. I've been informed that we dont 
have a record a record
   of you purchasing the phone from us. That probably explains why Tony 
could not process
   the return.
 As I've indicated, I've already gone through the process of requesting a
 refund for the device, and this was declined. I think you should be able
 to find all the info you need at https://support.openmoko.com/trac/ticket/36
   
  Yes. As I stated above we have no record of you purchaing the phone at 
our store: openmoko.com
  If you purchased it elsewhere please let me know. All of the guys here 
who have dealt with me will
  tell you that I'm a fair and reasonable person.
 I think that if you want to discuss the refund issue with me, it may be
 more appropriate to do so off-list, but I realise that I may have
 created a public image issue for you here (given my usage of the words
 thieves and defrauded), and that you may therefore want to keep this
 public. If you're willing to work with me to resolve my grievances and
 prove my assertions incorrect, then I'd be more than happy to come back
 here and retract my previous statements once it's resolved :).  That
 might be more appropriate, rather than flooding the mailing list with
 what will effectively be back-and-forth personal conversations between
 you and me. but if you want to discuss it in this public place I have no
 problem with that either - up to you.
   
 Makes no difference to me. If I handled this privately I'm sure some 
lunatic down the road
 who slam me for taking it private and launch into yact, yet another 
conspiracy theory.
 You put your return request into the RMA process for the Openmoko 
store.  For
 that process to work  we have to be able to find you in the database. 
So, if you could
 verify that you did in fact purchase the phone from that store ( the sn 
and imei would
 help) Then I can do two things:
   1. Figure out how the heck the system didnt capture your information
   2. Process your return.

 WRT your language. If I took offense, then I'd be a thief. ( that's a 
joke.. took a fence)
 Seriously, I'm no person to lecture people about having a colorful way 
of expressing
 anger. I'll just say that some weapons have more collateral damage then 
others.  And
 sometimes you can frag yourself, intentionally or otherwise, if you 
don't get clear of the blast zone.
 Since having my application for a refund declined, I had come to kind of
 accept that I had been screwed, and I have since bought another phone.
 Since I did that, I've (in my less angry moments) come to see the FR as
 a kind-of-cool little open-source device, as long as you don't want to
 use it as a phone. I haven't really done anything much with it, because
 so far I've been too angry to really even look at it, but I will admit
 that it does have potential for something, even if it's not as a
 reliable phone.
   
  I'll check from my side but did they give you a reason for being 
declined. 

 (That's my whole point, by the way: That it's not a usable phone, even
 after a year of waiting, and I bought it because I wanted a working open
 source phone, and I was told that the FR would meet that requirement).

 I would therefore perhaps be open to accepting a partial refund and
 keeping the device as a PDA-sized linux device (The AU Laws allow for
 that), even if I never use it. But I think that if this were to happen I
  would maybe not feel cheated anymore and could possibly once again
 enjoy participating constructively in the community.
   
 Let's see what turns up  when I get the ID numbers I requested. If you 
bought it from somebody
else, then there might be a variety of remedies. But here in the states 
to process a return
proof of purchase is required. Again, I'm not insinuating that you didnt

Re: Ain't it funny..

2009-05-07 Thread Steve Mosher

 Hi Dale.

I got a note from the people who handle these issues. In looking 
through our store records
we were unable to find any order from you at openmoko.com. That 
doesn't mean
you haven't purchased a phone. If you could, provide me with the 
details of your
purchase. Who you bought it from and when. Also, if you take the 
battery out
you'll see a IMEI number and a serial number. That will help with 
tracking as
well. So send those along as well.

 Best Regards

Steve

st...@openmoko.com

Dale Maggee wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Guten Tag, Sieg Heil.

 Seriously... You may not have heard of it, but There's a concept that's
 been around for a while called Free speech... you know, as opposed to
 free beer.

 Goebbels was in favour of free speech for views he liked. So was
 Stalin. If you're really in favour of free speech, then you're in favour
 of freedom of speech for precisely for views you despise. Otherwise,
 you're not in favour of free speech. - Noam Chomsky

 I am contributing - contributing to Free Speech, and I'm doing my part
 to warn prospective customers against giving their money to thieves.

 If you're not in favour of free speech then I have two words for you:
 Email filter. But I'm not going anywhere.


 (Note: I know there are quite a few deutschlanders on this list, and my
 use of your language is not intended in any way as a slight against your
 people or country. On the contrary, I think that you're among the most
 beautiful and intelligent people in the world, and your country reflects
 that... :) )


 jeremy jozwik wrote:
   
 seriously... go write the prime minister or something. if your not
 going to contribute your just wasting everyone else's time

 On Thu, May 7, 2009 at 5:04 PM, Dale Maggee anti...@internode.on.net wrote:
 arne anka wrote:
 
 Bitter much? : )
 
 nope. he's just a troll.

   
 Before I bought My Neo, I was told by OM that it would work as a phone.

 Once I got it and said WTF This doesn't work as a phone! I was told by
 OM that 2008.8 would. So I waited.

 It was worse than 2007.2. I was told  that 2008.12 would be much better.
 So I waited.

 Was there even any difference? Sure, the animations might have been a
 bit smoother, or something, but it still didn't work as a phone.

 When I asked for my money back I was told that it had been too long
 since I placed my order... despite the fact that the only reason I
 waited so long was that I trusted OM when they said that I would
 eventually get a working phone.


 I contacted Consumer Affairs here in AU. They told me that OM were
 legally bound by our laws (which include a clause giving me the right to
 demand a refund if the item doesn't do what I was led to believe it
 would do). They told me that according to the letter of the law, OM were
 required to give me a refund. They also told me that since they're based
 overseas, there's basically no way to enforce it.

 In short: OM Have Lied to me, then violated the consumer protection laws
 they're bound to by selling a Neo to an Australian Citizen by refusing
 to refund my money. That means that *OpenMoko Are THIEVES*.

 Anything I say about them is justified. IMO you can't be a troll if
 you're in the right. And I am. I have been defrauded of $400. And so
 have you. The only difference is that I'm not willing to sit around
 pretending that being raped is all fun and games.

 
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Re: Will my phone buzz?

2009-05-05 Thread Steve Mosher

If you remove the two tork screws and remove the front cover you will se 
the board rev.

In anycase if you have A5 or A6 you are susceptible to the buzz issue. 
If you bought 900
and dont experience it it is likely that you are communicating on 1900 
which doesnt,
according to anecdotal reports, suffer from the buzz symptoms

Shachar Shemesh wrote:
 Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
 Shachar Shemesh shac...@shemesh.biz writes:
  
 Can anyone tell me how I can find out? Is there some way to look at
 the board of a phone and tell whether it has the fix?
 

 cat /proc/cpuinfo

 If it says 0305 you have V5 and need a fix.

   
 I'm sorry if I'm asking a silly question. When I do cat 
 /proc/cpuinfo I get Revision: 24420360, so presumably I'm okay. 
 Then again, while trying to figure out what field I was supposed to be 
 looking at, I stumbled upon 
 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo_FreeRunner_Hardware. From there, it 
 seems that the user space gets that data from the kernel, which in 
 turn gets it from the boot loader, which doesn't get it from anywhere 
 at all hardware related. I've upgraded my boot loader with an image I 
 downloaded from the Internet (so I could boot from ext2 partitions on 
 a microsd card). So now I have to wonder whether the fact that it says 
 24420360 actually means anything other than I upgraded my u-boot?

 I have the debug board, which implicitly means I have the screw driver 
 needed to open the device (already did once). I was more looking for 
 something that says this is the change you need to do in order to fix 
 the buzz, and then just open the device and have a look whether that 
 change is already in place.

 Thanks,
 Shachar

 P.s.
 This is somewhat academic, as I'm fairly certain that my phone is a V6

 

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Re: bluetooth spam

2009-04-25 Thread Steve Mosher

http://www.opkg.org/package_61.html



Alexey Feldgendler wrote:
 On Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:44:32 +0200, Tilman Baumann til...@baumann.name  
 wrote:
 
 Hehe, I once did this on a ICE train.
 I was bored so I scanned for bluetooth devices. And then send them text
 files.

 O group of girls answered. Was really funny.
 Bur did not help me to ge laied tough. :)
 
 Modern advances in mobile computing technologies still don't get one laid.  
 Someone needs to work on that.
 
 

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Re: SF/CA BuzzFix Party (Was Re:US Buzz/GPS Fix)

2009-04-25 Thread Steve Mosher

  just need to find a guy with the skills

Jason Abele wrote:
 I am also in the SF Bay area (Menlo Park) and would gladly catch a
 buzz fix party anywhere in the Bay Area.
 
 Its awfully short notice and I don't have the parts or equipment on
 hand to do the fix, but I will be at the SuperHappyDevHouse tomorrow
 in Oakland:
 http://superhappydevhouse.org/SuperHappyDevHouse32
 
 But if someone wanted to show up with parts and soldering iron, I'll
 have my Neo and play along.
 
 Jason
 
 On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 9:16 AM, Steve  'dillo Okay (Roadknight
 Mobility Labs) armad...@gothpunk.com wrote:
 From: Doug Jones dj...@frombob.to
 Date: April 22, 2009 12:51:19 PM PDT
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org
 Subject: Re: US Buzz/GPS Fix
 Reply-To: List for Openmoko community discussion 
 community@lists.openmoko.org

 +1

 I'm also in California.  If somebody threw a Buzz Fix party anywhere
 in California, I would be there.  Isn't Openmoko in California too?
 Fremont Buzz Fix Party, anyone?


 I do have soldering experience, but not with such small parts.  (In
 my day, everything was the size of a Buick.)  But I'm game.
 I'm San Francisco and would also show up for a CA BuzzFix Party if
 somebody threw one.
 For the SF Bay Area, I would suggest a couple places, both in San
 Francisco:

 NoiseBridge, a hackerspace that focuses on both hardware and software
 hacks in The Mission.
 PariSoma, a co-working space in SOMA that is the the SF/North Bay
 OpenMoko reselller and where I bought my FR from :)

 Steve

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SF/CA BuzzFix Party (Was Re:US Buzz/GPS Fix)

2009-04-24 Thread Steve 'dillo Okay (Roadknight Mobility Labs)

 From: Doug Jones dj...@frombob.to
 Date: April 22, 2009 12:51:19 PM PDT
 To: List for Openmoko community discussion community@lists.openmoko.org 

 Subject: Re: US Buzz/GPS Fix
 Reply-To: List for Openmoko community discussion 
 community@lists.openmoko.org 

 +1

 I'm also in California.  If somebody threw a Buzz Fix party anywhere  
 in California, I would be there.  Isn't Openmoko in California too?  
 Fremont Buzz Fix Party, anyone?

 I do have soldering experience, but not with such small parts.  (In  
 my day, everything was the size of a Buick.)  But I'm game.

I'm San Francisco and would also show up for a CA BuzzFix Party if  
somebody threw one.
For the SF Bay Area, I would suggest a couple places, both in San  
Francisco:

NoiseBridge, a hackerspace that focuses on both hardware and software  
hacks in The Mission.
PariSoma, a co-working space in SOMA that is the the SF/North Bay  
OpenMoko reselller and where I bought my FR from :)

Steve

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Re: bluetooth spam

2009-04-22 Thread Steve Mosher

Hmm..
  The possibilities are endless. I imagine, however, that thre might be 
some media assets, like personal photos, that one would not want to spam 
around the club... or maybe not..Self promotion at its best.

Carlo Minucci wrote:
 Evgeny ha scritto:
 On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 4:20 PM, The Digital Pioneer
 digitalpionee...@gmail.com wrote:
 Spam a file? Send it to everyone in range? Why?

 It seems, because he can do it, funny.

 
 exactly :)
 
 
 the true
 i have code this application for spread mp3 of my band during live concert
 it's cool :)
 
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Re: [om2009] - send SMS GUI logic

2009-04-15 Thread Steve Mosher

My samsung allows both methods.

  So when I want to send a broadcast, like merry christmas I do the 
following.

1. Create new message.
2. enter msg.
3. Hit options
4. add people I want to braodcast to..
 Then I get to browse through my contects checking off people...
5. hit send.

Or I just hit create new mesage. Enter the sms. hit send. get a menu
of people to add.. lets see I'll send this to julie and mary, because 
julie just called me 10 minutes ago and she and mary are out driving 
around. I do that all the time.

  And.. when I want to send a message to Sean
I can
1. create new msg
2. Hit send
3. add sean
4. hit back
5 type in the msg
6. hit send.

I use both methods all the time. But then Again I use broadcast probably 
more than most.

Or go to contacts.. find sean, click send a msg, type the msg. hit send

or go to inbox, find a msg from sean, hit reply. etc.

or go to recent calls, find seans last call to me, hit options, select 
send a msg... etc etc

I guess I use all those methods on a regular basis

Joseph Reeves wrote:
 My Nokia N96 wants me to select the recipients before I write the
 message, and that's a phone that people seem to like...
 
 After all, I think to myself I'll send something to François, rather
 than I want to say something, but who shall I send it to?
 
 ;-)
 
 
 
 2009/4/15 François TOURDE fr...@tourde.org:
 Le 14349ième jour après Epoch,
 blok...@h0m3.be écrivait:

 first tipe what you want to send , then to who  seems more logical .
 I agree with this, even if I don't understand why. I can't find any good
 reason to use this order :)

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-12 Thread Steve Mosher



arne anka wrote:
 development has stopped. period.
 There other phones in the   pipeline
 Three variants of GTA02, 2 entirely new concepts aimed at
 different target markets.  Not smart phones, but phones nontheless.
 
 the first time i hear that.
 even the statements quotes so excessively mentioned only a plan b, being  
 _not_ a phone.
 
 if my definition od development doesn't fit your's - not my problem (and  
 no, i wasn't speaking of software development).

If your definition of development doesnt match mine then
we are not even communicating. If I dont know your definition then you 
can change it sentence to sentence. Ever read alice in wonderland?

Since I have a clear picture of in development and since I am 
interested in communication rather than gainsaying, I'll explain.

The development process goes through these stages:

  1. Concept
  2. Pilot study, prototype
  3. Business plan review
  4. Engineering review.
  5. Project kick off.
  6. product delivery.

If we were stopping phone development we would stop all activity in 1-6.

  Two products-- FR and B-- are in stages 5  6. Given the state of FR 
software I dont consider it to be finished yet.

WRT to the other phones in development All have passed stage 1. 4 have 
passed stage 2 and are in stages 3 and 4.

Perhaps I can make it this simple. We have on staff a top notch 
Industrial designer. he is paid to do designs. Concepts, sketches,
3D renderings, and physical models. It is a critical function to
product development. And it's not cheap. If we stopped phone development 
we would tell him to stop all design work on new phones. We haven't. In 
fact, I just held his latest design in my hand 2 weeks ago and now we 
will proceed to carry out steps 3 and 4. There is no PROMISE it will 
make it to step 5. my business review could KILL IT. engineering review 
could Kill it. If we were stopping development I wouldnt even DO the 
business review.

Now, you didnt know about this stuff. But you defend a headline that 
speculated about facts not in evidence.

In your first post you said you saw nothing that indicated you were 
wrong. what do you say now?  It seems to me you have said this:

  1. I say OM is stopping development because I see nothing to indicate
 otherwise.
  2. Now I see things that indicate otherwise, so now I can say first I 
heard of this!

  You made the classic mistake of taking the absence of evidence as 
evidence of absence.




 
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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-12 Thread Steve Mosher



arne anka wrote:
 development has stopped. period.
The misrepresentation - which you seem to think is not a
 misrepresentation - in the news coverage is that they're saying  
 development
 of open phones at OM has been cancelled, while all that's been decided  
 is to
 cancel the GTA03, not development of more open phones.
 
 since, at least to my information, the gta03 was the only phone being  
 developped, halting devel of gta03 meant halting all phone devlopment.
 and i tried to avoid the use of cancel, since to me it has some finite  
 touch about it, while stop means, it can start again.
 
 according to steve mosher's mail there's ongoing work, development if you  
 will, to kind of fork from the gta02 -- i can't recall having heard of  
 _serious_ plans to do so before.

   Ok last words.  yes, some of the plans are forks or follow-ons.
   some are not. Finally, now you are changing the terms of the debate 
from  in development to Serious plans Let me define serious
   and put an end to speculations. If we spend time and money on it
   it's serious. Time and money is being spent. (Ok now dont shift the 
debate to how much time and how much money counts as serious. or dont 
complain that I didnt tell you everything and therefore you were forced 
to speculate. )

In any case, We do agree that this discussion is better taken up 
elsewhere. Come to the Gta03 list and make some positive contributions, 
or healthy criticisms. I know you are passionate about this stuff as am 
I. I'll talk as transparently as I can over there with people who want 
to move things forward. come and join us. and peace.
last words from me here on this stuff, hope to see you on the new list.
 
 
 after all, i think this thread is rather more noise in the list and for  
 most people subscribed rather annoying (listing the different links to  
 news articles and fretting over more or less wrong interpretations in the  
 news has been so from the start).
 so, unless something really important comes up, i think, we can stop here,  
 eh, cancel ;-)
 
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Re: Time for press release published on w.om.c ?

2009-04-11 Thread Steve Mosher

we are on it. If you have specific criticism please vent away
or constructive suggestions as well.

PR was pretty busy getting corrections done all over the place
so now they focus on getting the press stuff up to date.

Olivier Berger wrote:
 Hi.
 
 I think www.openmoko.com deserves some updates maybe ?
 
 http://www.openmoko.com/press.html in particular... allright, slashdot
 is an authorized information source, but...
 
 My 2 cents,

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Re: Slashdotted

2009-04-11 Thread Steve Mosher



arne anka wrote:
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
 it wrong, surely a lot of other people will get it wrong too. No, phone
 development doesn't mean GTA03. Openmoko can release a device which is  
 not a successor to the GTA02.
 
 i never said, it has to be a successor to gta02.
 the only other phone in the pipeline had the name gta03 and its  
 development has stopped. period.
There other phones in the   pipeline
Three variants of GTA02, 2 entirely new concepts aimed at
different target markets.  Not smart phones, but phones nontheless.

I can detail these, each of which is in a different stage of the 
product development pipeline, each has various pre conditions that need 
to be met before they can proceed to the next stage of development, but 
see my comments below about the argument clinic.



 
 
 gta02 does not see any development, just support and fixes.
I'm sure not everybody agrees with you that bug fixes or improvements  
 to existing features is not development. Perhaps you could clarify what  
 you
 think counts as development to an already released product (GTA02).
 
 
 this is merely hairsplitting (and, no offense, just because you think i am  
 wrong does not mean you are right), but here goes:
 one or more of the following
 
 - newer/better hardware
  See above.
 - improved functionality (f ex wrt standby time, power consumption)
I believe that OM2009 slated for release in the June time frame has a 
good chance of showing improved functionality. One Issue with OM2009
( the paroli work) was that it catered for differences between the GTA02 
and GTA03. The design was targeted at GTA03 and utilized certain features
( like a hardware volume button) that were not present on GTA02. With 
the demise of GTA03 the design becomes more focused and I would assume
more easy to execute and test.
 - different device
See above

 
 i am sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of  
 development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it serve?
 i said it how i see it and so far no information has convinced me that i  
 am wrong here.

why define terms before an Argument?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y

  So to answer your question. Defining development up front (i am 
sure, we can spend days on end with attempts to find a definition of
  development that everybody agrees to, but what purpose would it 
serve?)  Serves a very important purpose. It sets the conditions under 
which parties would admit they were wrong or that their beliefs were 
falsified. It forms the basis of having a rational debate. everything 
else is just naysaying.

 
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Re: Slashdotted

If it bleeds, it leeds.

I'll alert PR to these publications and we will get the story right.

Until then the community should just pound on them. An Army of Davids.
Comment, link to seans video, link to my Video.

Steve

Michael Tansella wrote:
On Tuesday 07 April 2009 00:24:34 Steve Mosher wrote:
production is not stopping. Sean said explicitly in his Bern address
that there is ample inventory and I'll add that the production
continues. In fact, one of the consequences of suspending GTA03 is that
we can focus
on two things ( FreeRunner and Project B) as opposed to three things.
Let's get this straight. FreeRunner is Open. There is no EOL. Not like
a closed product where software support ends. As long as parts remain
available ( as far as I can see at least through the balance of 2009)
as long as demand remains, we will produce and support the FreeRunner.
That's the whole blessed point of delaying the GTA03.

I think the press didn't understand the intention of Sean Moss-Pultz at Open
Expo. If I google openmoko I met many wrong topics:

The pages are in german but the messages are:
Openmoko stops development of free smartphones.
Linux smartphone openmoko failed
Project Freerunner will not be continued

on chip.de (03.04.2009) they even say:
after Neo 1973 there will be no more Openmoko smartphone, they even claim
to
know Plan B is a navigation system

http://www.silicon.de/mittelstand/0,39038986,41002613,00/aus+fuer+linux_handy+openmoko.htm
http://www.chip.de/news/OpenMoko-Aus-fuer-Linux-Handys_35990484.html
http://derstandard.at/?url=/?id=1237229080902

It's really annoying to read this. But I am happy to see that where it was
possible the community has commented the articles. Anyway it doesn't put a
good light on Openmoko.

Michael

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Re: GTA03 or 3d7k?

Ah good question. I'll explain below. One of the final twists
in the GTA03 history

Timo Juhani Lindfors wrote:
 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com writes:
 Come on in the waters fine.
 
 Can't resist to ask, what's the deal with the name? ;-)
 
 In Mar 2 all references to GTA03 were changed[1] to 3d7k in the
 andy-tracking linux branch. Is it now called GTA03 again?

  One of the minor issues that Wolfgang and I had with the naming
  paradigm of of products was the use of what I call secret decoder 
rings GTA stood for: Gsm;Ti;Agps.  Ha, and everybody who reads
  wikipedia thinks it stood for Gnu Telephony Appliance. That's one
of the issues I have with secret decoder ring project names. The other 
problem is this: numbered sequences. 01,02,03,04. What does that imply?
for some it just implies gets better but it could also mean the one
following For example, we had a roadmap with a GTA05 on it, but the 
GTA05 was a very simple phone, 05 meant---comes after 04 on the 
schedule. You follow? Now GTA03 was redined in such a way that it
didnt have wifi and didnt have GPS, and it had a different GSM chip.
So, what do we call it: GS03? GS01? secret decoder rings always lead
to these kind of problems. So we took a decision to create the following
Naming structure:

1. Specific Hardware device: Non representational sequence of alpha
numerics.
2. Project Name: Internal Code name, like everest
3. Marketing name.

So, Andy went out and picked out a licence plate 3d7k to stand for
the specific hardware design he was targeting. It's basically the
name you would see in drivers.

So one project, say everest could use 3d7k and add lets say
and image from SHR and that project would ship with a marketing
name of FreeRunner SHR  for example. And another project,
Lets say diablo could use 3d7k and add a android image, and
ship as the product FreeRunner Android I use these ONLY
as examples.. the basic point was you had a naming structure
that allowed multiple projects (HW+SW) to use the same hardware.
It was merely a housecleaning exercise that allowed Wolfgang
and I to decouple the hardware naming ( which the drivers needed)
from the project naming ( which engineering and marketing needed)
and allowed me to do product naming ( FreeRunner) without forcing
a rewrite of drivers at the last minute. clear as mud I suppose.

 
 
 
 [1] the commit message:
 
 commit 81da012eb0fff1bc5f129202d0c12b1d63a7761a
 Author: Andy Green a...@openmoko.com
 Date:   Mon Mar 2 18:51:56 2009 +
 
 rename-gta03-dropped-3d7k-new-moniker.patch
 
 GTA03 project is dropped, long live Openmoko 3d7k project.
 
 This name was literally generated by picking the first character
 of the next four car license plates to pass by I am told.
 
 The should catch all GTA03 instances except the machine name.
 
 I registered a new machine name since the 3d7k is different
 from original GTA03, the machine number is 2120.
 
 Signed-off-by: Andy Green a...@openmoko.com
 

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Re: Slashdotted



Fernando Martins wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 And you are right the community can help:
  1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain.
  2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or
 spreading the word.
  you get the idea.
 My biggest itch was the frustration of getting a phone which, at that 
 time, was not yet, say, a smooth phone, and still today has some rough 
 edges, depending on distribution of course. I think this common 
 experience is now acknowledged as what is hurting more the FR (leading 
 to the slashdot post, but I'm also sure it can succeed and your recent 
 posts are very convincing to me)
 
 Although I'm a programmer (C, Python), right now I can only spare a few 
 hours a week which makes it difficult for me to be effective. Any 
 suggestion how to best put my small resources at use? How much 
 investment would it be needed to work on phone specific functions? I 
 know this is the bazaar, but I miss a bit the cathedral to be more 
 focused and effective. A todo list, who's doing what, change logs,... 
 What's the status of FSO?? Maybe I have to explore better but there is a 
 lot of info how there, spread all over, and too often not up to date. 
 Working on documentation is also fine for me, but what is the most 
 needed to choose from?
  What I would do is get in contact with the folks working on a specific 
distribution ( SHR for example) or specific piece of infrastructure
Paroli, tichey,FSO, kernel and ask them these questions. The lack of a 
todo list and the lack of focused development has also been a 
frustration for me. It means development happens like an untended garden
grows. But look what grew that we never imagined.
 
 Fernando

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Re: Slashdotted

Like I said, if it bleeds, it leeds.


When you have a major announcement such as seans you have two options:

1. Try to control the press response beforehand. Brief the press 
beforehand, do a press release, release an official statement on the
same day as the event. A controlled blast.

2. Drop that bombshell,  some of the press will get it wrong, and then
use that opportunity.

In my mind the community had earned the right to be the first to know.
So, I picked option 2. Let Sean tell the community first and then I will
go out and correct any misunderstanding. Explaining our position FIRST 
on the community list, and then to the press and the rest of the world.



Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 On Tue, 7 Apr 2009 14:00:04 +0200 ri...@happyleptic.org said:
 
 -[ Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 11:58:33AM +0200, arne anka ]
 Openmoko stopps development of free mobile phones

 In my opinion it suggerates the wrong message.
 so?
 phone development means gta03 -- and that indeed stopped.
 The project is _delayed_, and openmoko still want to build new phones in the
 future, and most importantly do not give up building open devices (go for the
 open hair dryer! :-)).

 When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more
 support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ?
 
 because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a
 company stops its entire development of new products in a product line... in
 fact its ONLY product that is publically known (development meaning the next
 improved version) it does make new. it matters. it is the same as is nokia
 stopped making ALL phones and decided to start making shoes instead. that'd 
 make
 news!. :) these things  create a life of their own - if they are correct or
 not. the media interprets it in the way to make it as sensational as possible.
 sensation sells to readers. readers mean ads ... and ads are revenue. if half
 the worlds news was reported realistically in proportion.. you would have a
 pretty boring media. :)
 
 

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Re: Slashdotted



ri...@happyleptic.org wrote:
 When Nokia annouces that the n810 is discontinued and will have no more
 support in the future, nobody gives a damn. Why ?
 because nokia make dozens of phones and are not stopping ALL of them. when a
 company stops its entire development of new products in a product line...
 
 Yes. But as a user, I would be more saddened if Sean had annouced that gta03
 was just around the corner and would be so different from the previous 
 products
 that all support for those would be discontinued.
 
 I may sound old, but I think that the FR hardware (as well as the n810
 hardware for that matter) is more than enough, and the inovation must now 
 comes
 from the software part. The phone downsides are not in the hardware, so let's
 settle here and improve the software.
 From one perspective because FR is open you really don't have an EOL. 
unlike closed products. yes, there will come a day when certain parts
are not available, but solving that problem is much more manageable
than an entire new design.
 
 Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new
 customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For
 the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO.
 
 
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Re: Slashdotted



Shawn Rutledge wrote:
 On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 5:34 AM,  ri...@happyleptic.org wrote:
 Make a useable phone with inovative apps is what is needed to get new
 customers, not a fancy 3d chip nor a better screen or camera or whatever. For
 the hardware is already way much better than the software, IMHO.
 
 I agree.  If the GTA03 was going to be less capable anyway, we can
 live without it.  It's too bad having to put up with the Glamo, but oh
 well.
  We continue to look at a glamoectomy;
 
 How much longer can GTA02's remain in production?  Any impending part
 obsolescence to worry about?
  I would hazard that we see no issues through the end of 2009. If a part
goes out of production, then you have a 'grey market' that lasts for
some while. As the grey market drains you ordinarily would look to do
a redesign. For example, remove glamo and switch GSM chips. That just
an example folks so don't start down the path of defining GTA02+


 
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Re: Leather case for Neo freeruner now 29 Euros



Matthias Apitz wrote:
 El día Tuesday, April 07, 2009 a las 01:15:52PM +0200, David Reyes Samblas 
 Martinez escribió:
 
 HI
 well topic says all
 Now the Openmoko leather case is at 29 Euros Vat included + Shipping costs
 at www.truxbrain.com/shop
 
 Yes, the topic says at all: NOW for 29 Euros (and maybe tomorrow for
 1 Euro); it sounds that folks are leaving a sinking ship :-(

  Well, look at all the facts before drawing conclusions and speculating.

  1. Tuxbrain is leading the pack by reworking their existing stock
from A6  to A7 quality.
  2. Tuxbrain is hosting rework parties for customers who bought phones.

  3. They reduced the price on their leather cases.

Those are the facts. Its sounds like they are in the crows nest looking
to the future, not jumping ship. Ohoy!
 
 I have encountered in the FR the toy I was always looking for: a UNIX
 server with X11 for my pocket or belt which also can make phone calls,
 Internet, Wifi, GPS, ...
 
 I'm one of those using it as their only and daily phone device... but,
 where to go now in the future? well, the device will continue serving some 
 time,
 maybe even years as it is, but after that?
 
 Thx
 
   matthias

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Re: how long freerunner will be produce ?

Hi.

Mickael LABROUSSE wrote:
 Hi everyone,
 
 I work in a french compagny making up a produce based on the freerunner.
 
 Sorry to open a new thread about this but I read everywhere on the 
 Internet that Openmoko cancels gta03 and sometimes news talk about gta02 
 too !!
GTA03 was postponed. There is anew list on openmoko.org that will be 
dedicated to a community driven definition for this product. The
whole product process will be opened up.
 
 So a simple question how long freerunner will be produce ??
As sean noted we have a good level of  inventory for the retail demand
that we currently see. In addition, we have Kits of components that
can sustain production through 2009. Because we have some major
potential customers we also monitor parts availability in case volume
ramps dramatically. Go ahead and contact me at st...@openmoko.com and
we can talk about your specific requirements, volume, pricing, timing.
 
 Thanks a lot.
 Mickael
 
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Re: how long freerunner will be produce ?

Thanks,

  Don't be worried. Just keep in touch with me about your requirements 
and we can plan accordingly.

Mickael LABROUSSE wrote:
 Thanks for answering me.
 
 For the moment we have bought to one of your distributors providing us a 
 very good price.
 It's very difficult for us to estimate how many GTA02 we are going to 
 sell because it is part of a full offer.
 It can be be 50 or 100 or 500 per year.
 
 The other problem is that for some others reasons we don't think really 
 sell so much this year but really start in 2010.
 I a little bit worried for our future with the GTA02.
 
 Thanks,
 Mickael.
 
 Steve Mosher a écrit :
 Hi.

 Mickael LABROUSSE wrote:
  
 Hi everyone,

 I work in a french compagny making up a produce based on the freerunner.

 Sorry to open a new thread about this but I read everywhere on the 
 Internet that Openmoko cancels gta03 and sometimes news talk about 
 gta02 too !!
 
 GTA03 was postponed. There is anew list on openmoko.org that will be 
 dedicated to a community driven definition for this product. The
 whole product process will be opened up.
  
 So a simple question how long freerunner will be produce ??
 
 As sean noted we have a good level of  inventory for the retail demand
 that we currently see. In addition, we have Kits of components that
 can sustain production through 2009. Because we have some major
 potential customers we also monitor parts availability in case volume
 ramps dramatically. Go ahead and contact me at st...@openmoko.com and
 we can talk about your specific requirements, volume, pricing, timing.
  
 Thanks a lot.
 Mickael

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Re: Just Got Buzz Fixed

not so weird. The buzz is believed to be somewhat dependent on the 
frequency you are on. 900 is worst, 1800, less so, 1900 reported as ok.
Do you have an 850 phone or 900?

The Digital Pioneer wrote:
 Buzz was interesting for me... I have never had trouble with it before, but
 then I took a trip to Tennessee, and I was told it was horrible. Once I got
 back home, it was gone again. Weird.
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Slashdotted

no i didnt upload that video. I relented today and got a youtube account
to upload my video, so I'm still fumbling around with youtube.


Kosa wrote:
 Thanks fo that.
 
 Just a recomendation. I don't know know if you yourself (hope that's well 
 written since
 english is not my first language) upload that video, but I think it could be 
 a 
 good idea to
 rename it so it includes openmoko on the title. It wuld be easier to find 
 for 
 those who
 are not on the list, but have heard about OM.
 
 Kosa
 
 - Un mundo mejor es posible -
 
 Steve Mosher escribió:
 Thanks Anthony.

 For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this
 or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position
 is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then
 fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold
 and find a way to involve the community more in its development.

 inlined below find an advanced copy of my official comments.
 stuff I send to the press. As a side note on this, these official
 comments grew out of posts I made here first. During sean's presentation
 someone commented that our approach to open business was the most 
 radical he had seen. It is. and it presents great challenges for all
 of us.

 Seans video:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFuwhPXYxxIfeature=PlayListp=96FB31DA6E4012DAindex=1

 I'll have my video up in a bit, an interview.

 Here's the advance copy of my comments to the press.


 During the last week Openmoko has had two great events. First the 
 Embedded System Conference, ESC) and second, the OpenExpo in Bern. Those 
 events could not have been more well timed for us because we had two 
 major announcements to make: a thrust into the embedded systems market 
 and the announcement of a new device, not a phone but an entirely new 
 open device.
 The launch into the embedded systems market is a case of the market 
 finding the manufacturer. We designed the FreeRunner as an open phone. 
 After it launched we started to receive requests from customers we never 
 dreamed existed: Innovators who wanted to change the case or add in 
 additional hardware. People who wanted to resell the phone with their 
 software added. The collective creativity outside the company, dwarfed 
 the creativity within the company. Our customers truly are an army of 
 Davids. To seize this opportunity we decided to open up our CAD files, 
 and open up our schematics. That way these new-found markets can develop 
 for themselves products that we don’t have the resources to develop. So, 
 over the next few months you’ll see us make a more focused effort in 
 this market space. As a platform for embedded development, nothing 
 compares to the FreeRunner: Open schematics; Open CAD; Open hardware; 
 Open software.
  At OpenExpo we had a keynote speech in the business track. This gave us 
 the opportunity to explain some of the change in focus we’ve made in the 
 past month. Our CEO Sean Moss-Pultz delivered the presentation and I’ll 
 take some space here to explain in a bit more detail the background 
 behind these exciting changes. Sean discussed three things:
 1. Our successes.
 2. Our mistakes.
 3. Our challenges
 It’s vitally important when addressing the challenges of the future to 
 assess and understand your past success. Openmoko launched its first 
 developer phone in July of 07 and the FreeRunner shipped in July of 08. 
 Sales tripled. Not only did we build a phone; we built a company and 
 distribution network in the process. We also helped others build their 
 own businesses around the FreeRunner. Our takeaway lessons were as 
 follows: Open Products can be successful in the marketplace; being Open 
 multiplies everyone’s business opportunities. For our mistakes we 
 identified these: Open Product design is very hard as there is a 
 tendency to make too many changes. Our culture is not authoritarian. We 
 also tended to view hardware with a “software” mentality, as something 
 that could be easily changed or patched.
 Our challenge going forward is to seize the opportunity we see in the 
 embedded space and push forward the cause of open hardware. And we had 
 to make some choices about how to spend the balance of 2009. There were 
 essentially three projects going on inside OpenMoko: ongoing support of 
 FreeRunner; Development of a follow on phone, the GTA03; and development 
 of project “B”. From a resources standpoint we could pick any two. Given 
 the traction we see in the embedded space and given our passionate 
 commitment to current FreeRunner owners and developers it was easy to 
 pick that project. Nine months after launching FreeRunner with 
 tremendous support from the community the product is coming into its own 
 with a diverse set of distributions that run on it, from android to 
 debian.  Then comes the choice between project “B” and the GTA03.
 There were two paths:
 A: Fulfill our promises on FreeRunner and launch GTA03
 B: Fulfill our promises

Re: Slashdotted

Hey tony!

好朋友

Glad to see your comments.

Neng-Yu Tu (Tony Tu) wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 Good comments All.

 Let me inline some answers/explanations.

 Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,
 I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
 you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
 You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you 
 hit the compile button?
 
 Yes, this pretty much true, and you have to hit the button in time, or
 so some the package in that make might phase out (like GTA01 PMU
 PCF50606), and then you have spent another run of money to enable the
 make button hit-able till mass production again.
 
 So what's the result if you don't use a waterfall model in
 hardware development. Whats the cost if you find a requirements defect 
 or a design defect ( glamo? )when you do that prototype run? 50K 
 minimum, plus a redesign. Take the appendix out--perform a glamoectomy?
 ask Werner about the design implications of that on WIFI. And
 see my comments below about design and diving into peanut butter.

 
 Werner just replied, maybe he could share more about his painful direct
 contact experience with chip vendor ;)
 
 In hardware, specification/datasheet is not always correct (or always
 not correct). People may found a lot interesting component datasheet
 with powerful function (the dream chip) could solve specific design
 problem, but when OM direct contact local distributor, following
 scenario always happens:
 
 * the chip never put mass production before, or we are the only user
 interested that chip, need bare with long lead-time and bad payment deal
 
 * the chip specific model we want not manufactured yet
 
 * the chip specific function not work, or could not work stability, even
 the datasheet
 
 * Our quantities (market size) too small, ignore us (this is better
 case, we sometimes got already married with some solution then after a
 while, vendor ask for divorce ;) )
 
 OM might have other internal issues, but external hardware game rules
 tough as well. I don't think other company could really open hardware
 not only legal issue (design specification with customer/contract with
 telcom) but they got Open mind set to solve open hardware related
 process issue like OM done before.

  Yes. I think one of the challenges that some people really dont 
understand very well are all these little nagging details.having worked 
for a big company I'm just used to going in and getting the parts
I needed when I needed them. In 11 years there were only a few cases
were I had to go begging for parts.. RAM on the VoodooII from silcon
magic,  and DDR memory on the Nv10 I think from infineon.. oh and 1.8 
toshiba drives  after the ipod shipped, bastards.. ah and tantalum caps
once or twice.

 or capacitive, keyboard or touch.-- ALL signs to me of a lack of 
 appreciation for the complexity and cost involved in doing hardware. I 
 got a hammer your problem must be a nail. I'll give you
 
 And each component we have to verify it's hardware functionality and
 compatibility with Open source, and most of time we have to spent extra
 resource to build a full GPL'ed driver if vendor only have proprietary
 Windows or some binary vendor version.
 
 This also cause the difficulty when verification hardware in time,
 because we need build our own driver to test vendor's hardware. Usually
 only hardware vendor could have 1 or 2 FAE port driver for us, and with
 our latest kernel and open policy (release driver early even before
 product manufactured).
 
 and energy is spent on this solution In the end, marketing looks at 
 that and says who took the fucking camera out! that's not an actual 
 example, but you get the idea.
 
 Yes, freeze idea and snapshot it in time is art of products ;)


 
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 In one sense this is trivally true. hardware development is
 inherently collaborative. But I suppose you mean is it possible
 to do it in an open fashion. It maybe. But if the requirements process
 and design process is not rigorous and well defined you end up
 with expensive implementation problems. And if you don't have team 
 consensus, then it's very problematic. Forking software is easy.
 Forking hardware is forking hard. The best example I can use is
 forking ASIC design. You can do a big chip with lots of functionality
 and then fork off 'defeatured' versions, but that forking needs to
 be designed in.and it may come with a cost. the same holds true
 for modular hardware designs. what's easy with lego blocks aint so
 trivial when it comes to EE design.

 
 As describe above, some of the chip/module may not look pretty real
 world as pdf does. And component have supply issue, you never knows you
 are the only one buying the really crap or not until you put into mass
 production.
 
 Using S3C6410 as example, you never sure which version will put into
 mass production for sure or which version will phase out in next 6

Re: Slashdotted

Thanks Risto.

  It really is a function of the sharpened focus of the company. In my 
particular case, if we back up to the september october time frame
I was working on doing the requirements and specs for the GTA04 with
joerg, looking at the glamoetctomy with werner, Doing FR stuff and 
project B. So now I have a much clearer focus and ability to tend to 
community matters.

Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)
 
 r
 
 

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Re: Slashdotted

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

Hair straightener required.

Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread - this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)
 
 r
 
 

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Re: Camera module as back case (was Re: Slashdotted)

  I'll ask Tully  OMs resident ME genius to have a look.
  A long while back when Joerg and I were doing the GTA04
  we had decided to use the GTA02 case (with mods) for the
  project and were playing with several camera Ideas. Tully
  is looking at that for me now ( I had some new ideas) so
  I'll ask him to have a look see at this stuff as well.

  Steve

Lothar Behrens wrote:
 About the camera issue:
 
 I have read something about a small computer base case that has a jack  
 or bus system ontop of it's
 case. That way it is extendable with cameras or what ever. I don't  
 know where it was but it was cool.
 
 Why not think about a back case that includes a cam and using contacts  
 in the inner housing to connect
 the cam to, say an I2C bus or even an USB hub (USB2)?
 
 If an USB jack is mounted that way, such a 'pimp my neo with a cam  
 module' would propably a gatget
 one could buy. (Expected he want's a camera :-)
 
 The usual neo looks as before when this replacement back case isn't  
 used and when used, there may also
 the possibility to add an extra battery.
 
 I asked some time ago, if it would be practical to have a database  
 application on the neo
 (Database applications practical on mobile device ?).
 
 There was an interest, that may also involved to have a camera option: 
 http://www.thehumanjourney.net/
 Joseph Reeves argued that it would be very interesting to contribute  
 or evaluate. As he is a member at the above link,
 the 'archaeology service' would propably benefit from such a cam  
 gatget with extra battery, because they seem
 to make much pictures in the archaeology work, thus they need also  
 long live usability.
 
 If the gatget didn't really be implementable with the USB connector in  
 mind, it would be an option to connect with
 bluetooth and only connect the extra battery.
 
 Advantages:
 
 One gatget to track GPS locations,
 correlate directly the pictures with the GPS positions (I am  
 struggling with my extra cam and the GPS traces),
 propably add voice notes that are GPS correlated.
 
 Development:
 
 The standard back case, could be used to mod it as a first prototype.  
 I have seen a post with pictures that show something
 with an extra battery. (The second last picture from here: 
 http://freeyourphone.de/portal_v1/gallery/views.php?start=20)
 That could be done colleraborately. The bluetooth camera: 
 http://digitalcameras.engadget.com/2006/04/02/kodaks-bluetooth-camera-module/
 
 Design:
 
 As thicker than one battery,
 As thicker than a cam module,
 As thicker than the supporting electronics.
 
 Using BRLCAD could be an option to create a preview, when possible  
 components with their sizes are choosen.
 
 The database that may be the backend should be discussed separately. I  
 am practicing the idea of model driven development and fast prototyping.
 I have seen wxWidgtes on my neo, but not yet found the time to start  
 porting my code to it :-(
 
 But prototyping from a desktop would be possible for creating python  
 CRUD applications at the end (code generation).
 
 Lothar
 
 Am 06.04.2009 um 10:29 schrieb David Reyes Samblas Martinez:
 
 I finally see your face :),  I also add great voice
 Great excerpt of what's going on there in OM  thanks steve.
 As Risto sais way to go :)

 2009/4/6 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com:
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

 Hair straightener required.

 Risto H. Kurppa wrote:
 I'm just amazed to see this discussion, that actually someone from
 Openmoko (=Steve) is responding to the ideas, sharing their/his
 thoughts. As someone pointed already out earlier in this thread -  
 this
 is what an open company is supposed to be doing. Way to go, keep up
 the good work, we're looking forward to see the freeopen
 hair-straightener with WLAN :)

 r


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 -- 
 David Reyes Samblas Martinez
 http://www.tuxbrain.com
 Open ultraportable  embedded solutions
 Openmoko, Openpandora, GP2X the Wiz, Letux 400, Arduino
 Hey, watch out!!! There's a linux in your pocket!!!

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 -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
 Lothar Behrens
 Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
 73252 Lenningen
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: CAD files and gCAD3D

  Maybe Tully knows

Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I have just seen on the page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/CAD_models  
 that
 gCAD3D could be used for previewing the CAD models.
 
 Does it support boolean operations to derive other housings?
 
 Is this tool propably usable to export in other formats?
 
 I have tried to play with blender and it is a great animation tool. It  
 also is relatively
 easy to use when some introductory videos or screen casts are followed.
 
 Also this application runs on Mac OS X I am mostly running.
 
 Thanks
 
 Lothar
 
 -- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
 Lothar Behrens
 Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
 73252 Lenningen
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Slashdotted

  I have an official statement out.

   I'll get on the corrections asap

  steve.

  community! chime in. on these sites

Lalo Martins wrote:
 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through 
 the blogosphere:
 http://www.phonescoop.com/news/item.php?n=4214
 which was picked up by Giz and Engadget:
 http://i.gizmodo.com/5200285/openmoko-cancels-freerunner-the-original-
 open-source-linux-phone
 http://www.engadget.com/2009/04/06/openmoko-freerunner-canceled-staff-
 slashed/
 
 I'd strongly recommend OpenMoko puts out a press release or something...
 
 best,
Lalo Martins

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Re: Slashdotted

production is not stopping. Sean said explicitly in his Bern address 
that there is ample inventory and I'll add that the production 
continues. In fact, one of the consequences of suspending GTA03 is that 
we can focus
on two things ( FreeRunner and Project B) as opposed to three things.
Let's get this straight. FreeRunner is Open. There is no EOL. Not like
a closed product where software support ends. As long as parts remain
available ( as far as I can see at least through the balance of 2009)
as long as demand remains, we will produce and support the FreeRunner.
That's the whole blessed point of delaying the GTA03.

Lalo Martins wrote:
 quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200:
 
 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through
 the blogosphere:
 ...
 in what respect a mis-reportage?
 that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half
 a line at the bottom ...
 
 The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner 
 was cancelled.  That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out, 
 what's there to cancel?  But I believe it was said explicitly that 
 production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want 
 one, buzz or not)
 
 best,
Lalo Martins

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Re: Slashdotted

Hi bob.

  A couple points below. thanks for your continued interest.

robert lazarski wrote:
 On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Lalo Martins lalo.mart...@gmail.com wrote:
 quoth arne anka as of Mon, 06 Apr 2009 18:01:11 +0200:

 This is getting ridiculous.  Now the misreportage is spreading through
 the blogosphere:
 ...
 in what respect a mis-reportage?
 that's, what i concluded from these long mails with 99.9% quote and half
 a line at the bottom ...
 The articles (Slashdot, Phonescoop, Engadget, Giz) are saying Freerunner
 was cancelled.  That doesn't even make sense, since Freerunner is out,
 what's there to cancel?  But I believe it was said explicitly that
 production of the Freerunner is *not* stopping... (I certainly still want
 one, buzz or not)

 best,
   Lalo Martins
 
 Talk is cheap. The GT03 was announced and canceled, 
As an open company we take great pains to disclose as much as possible.
Throughout the development of GTA03 when people asked me what it was
and when would it ship I took great pains to explain ( as did wolfgang)
that it may not ship at all. In closed companies they have closed 
caskets. For us its more like an irish wake. Every company I have ever 
worked for has had to kill products. usually we just take them out back 
and shoot them and never speak about it. But we have to talk about it.
First because we were open enough to talk about it when it was still in 
design, second because our commitment to openness demands it, and third
because others who want to create open companies can learn from our 
experience.



a tentative A7
 release was announced, canceled and replaced with a 5 point plan or
 something , 

The 5 points are conditions that must be met for me to release the A7
that are sitting comfortably in their boxes in the factory. The delay
caused by the factory being off for CNY is past. The final checks
on the image and ALSA states is done. Now I'm working with disty to
plan its entry into the market.


so I certainly wouldn't be surprised if neither the A7 nor
 plan b happen at this point.  You don't fire or create conditions for
 the most important kernel / hardware / UI guys to leave if you have
 growth in mind. Something new may happen, but IMHO its time to at
 least consider that what you see is what you get.

  It's exactly because we have growth in mind that we had to make the
cuts we did. the suicide path was to continue 3 projects when the 
resources available can only deliver on the two more modest projects.
here is how it works. You have 3 projects:
  1. FreeRunner: requires .5X
  2. Project B: requires X
  3. GTA03 requires 3X.

You have 2X resources. Pick your projects. If you pick door number 3, 
you have just picked failure. Couple that with these facts. #3 is
has no wifi and no GPS and costs 499. Looks pretty clear that if you
want growth you better do a little pruning. Is the growth path a 
straight line? nope. But if we set goals we have a chance of meeting
and then deliver, I'm confident that our unique experiment will draw
additional resources. At early stages growth is never funded by cash flow.

 
 The one thing for sure is that OM a company generally has a bad
 reputation at this point with all this recent press - unfairly or not.
 If they can overcome that image and also release new products with a
 skeleton staff, then I'll be pleasantly surprised - like many of us,
 I'd rather not have my time spent go down the tubes.


 
 - R
 
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Re: Slashdotted



Fernando Martins wrote:
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 Thanks Anthony.

 For the sake of everyone who hasnt read my posts on this
 or seen the video of seans speech. Let me say that your position
 is the one we settled on. spend our resources on the FR and then
 fund a modest project: project B. Put the GTA03 on hold
 and find a way to involve the community more in its development.


   
 I'm not a marketing guy, but I am somewhat surprised not to see more 
 references about this aspect. There is talk about products and about 
 methods. All that discussion on hardware development made it clear that 
 OM needs to increase market or gain share to achieve economies of scale. 
 I can understand that market aspects might not come to the front, but 
 maybe the community could also help here.
First and foremost I try to get the word out to the community. For that 
I try to talk about the engineering aspects of things, as best I can 
since I put my complier down years ago. Then I discuss the marketing 
aspects of things. Search my posts and you'll find the comments on 
marketing. yes, its true we need to increase market share. My job
is to size what I think is reasonable. To fund GTA03 I would have to
TRIPLE sales overnight. If you look at the economic drivers in our 
channel, basically it cash constrained at the inlet, you'll understand 
why I would not project a tripling of volume. Further, increasing the 
sales this much overnight would not even be feasible from a cash flow 
standpoint. It takes money to buy inventory and to market. So, I picked
a more modest growth projection. A projection based on our entry to the 
Embedded market. Thousands of developers who never even heard of us.
ramping to volume is only possible by a reallocation and yes de 
allocation of resources from certain areas. And you are right the 
community can help:
  1. get code upstream. That decreases our cost to maintain.
  2. Stay involved or get involved, either by coding, testing, or
 spreading the word.
  you get the idea.
 
  From another post I understand that you are also going to niche markets 
 that need custom/open phones, which looks like a sensible approach. But 
 could the GTA02 be made interesting to the general public to be sold 
 together with a telecom subscription? if not, is there a GTA02+ that 
 could do it?
  The telecom play is a tough one.

  1. The tests you have to go through cost on the order of 700K
  2. Your CUSTOMER is really the product marketing manager of the telco.
 They are driven to monetize the 3G network they set up. They are
 not especially dedicated to open source as an ideal.

  The niche market play is one where we see the most traction. If I want 
to ramp to volume, I'm going to pick the hill where I have traction and
not the slippery slope of a telco play. Crawl, walk run.
 
 I have the impression that people are already using the phones in many 
 different ways. Some do it in obvious ways for them which might not be 
 so obvious to the majority. How about collecting these use cases and see 
 how you can grow the current specific FR market from here, or gain 
 market share from the general phone market.
Yup that's our impression and the plan.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_d8Tsvj2TdQ

Our launch into these areas happened march 31st

WRT the general phone market, I'd say we are content to have the android 
distribution cover that demand. That effort is being carried out 
independently of us. I see that as pure upside business. In brazil for 
example, we see a market for 13 million android phones. Do I put this in 
my forecast? No. Will our business change overnight if it materializes?
yes.
 
 Regards,
 Fernando
 

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Re: Slashdotted



Gerald A wrote:
 Hi all,
 I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost
 to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were
 some good points here.
 
 Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I
 have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope
 we can make it work.
 
 Lothar -- new comments are inline.
 
 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de
 wrote:
 

 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens 
 lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de wrote:

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for
 a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?

 
 I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept
 is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But
 based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard.

 Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a
 fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to
 play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a
 really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the
 formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry
 about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is
 higher to think about jumping over and just DO it.
 
 
 Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final
 production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build modular
 kits so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but
 translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a
 consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about
 the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't
 available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The
 concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but
 it's something to think about.

  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.

 
 
 
 Principally, this is due to a moving target. Since everything is obsolete
 in a few months, the shelf life of products in the embedded space is very
 small. The next big hurdle is in getting specs. OM/FIC were producing
 thousands of devices and possibly more, so had better quantities then a
 hobby group might muster -- and still had poor access to hardware specs,
 when they got them. Now, of course, some of their decisions might have been
 practical too (we can get 1000 more closed pieces from company X, while we
 can only get ~100 more open pieces from company Y), we don't know.

 Yes, the technique is moving forward fast - for the real phone, not for a
 GSM module for sample :-)

 Today I have searched for a GSM module and indeed found one with a complete
 ARM based Linux stack. It would be much too expensive, but when having only
 the next planned GSM module that will appear in the phone, one could test it
 on a standard pc. Or even participate in GSM related development only.
 
 
 I love the idea of being able to mock up hardware, as it lets the software
 move forward too. But if our test platform can't be translated into a
 suitable form factor, it might be a waste.
YUP. Just to review the GTA03. At one stage the WIFI and GPS had to be 
removed because it didnt fit in the case. If thin is in, then using
a module is out, for the most part. How thin is thin? Typical marketing 
answer would be thinner than the iPhone but obviously some fat phones ship
 
 
 I had an idea about my car radio. The idea came because I use my Neo to
 transmit music over bluetooth, then over a FM transmitter to the radio. This
 is bad quality.
 There are really much entusiasts building their own carPC in double DIN
 factor or similar - even small PC barebones. Why not equip it with a GSM
 module to become a real handsfree carPC + phone. They will benefit from such
 a module and propably participate in development.
  On of our early partners, in fact, was designing such a carPC and 
wanted to use FR as a dev platform. Alas they demanded a different 
processor ( Intel) so that deal didnt go through.

 Open the development by also selling parts of a phone for the hobby
 electronics would increase the audience and the feedback.
 I don't know how this component has to be deliverded, but I think it must
 be compilant to some law.
 
 
 The current phone stuff already passes those laws. Would it be possible to
 adapt them, on the electronic side? I have no doubt. Steve or someone on the
 OM side might be able to speak to the regulations issue.
  You change the RFs ( antenna/circuits etc) and you have to recert.
  I'll have to take a closer look. I

GTA03 List now open at openmoko.org

Come on in the waters fine.

Steve

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Re: Slashdotted

Hi Joseph,

  Your project and projects like yours were one of the principal 
motivations behind the decision to focus on FR. GTA03 as defined
would not have met your needs: no wifi, no GPS. Comments below
inlined address your other concerns

Joseph Reeves wrote:
  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.
 
 Steve, at the OpenExpo Sean refered to the Dash navigator as a
 dashtraction from the serious business of Openmoko. 
To be specific he said that Dash took 90% of our resources. That
forms the heart of the argument to characterize it as a distraction..
perhaps the better word would be DIVERSION.

How will Plan
 B (which is presumably not a distraction but a means of improving ROI
 for FIC) avoid becoming thought of as Dash2?
Project B is not a dash like diversion of resourse. The prototype 
engineering didnt even rise to half the level of a EVT run for a phone.
That's been paid for long ago. Sunk cost. So we have two choices for the
hardware team working on GTA03:

  A: let them continue and they run out of resources 1/3 the way through 
the project ensuring failure.
  B. Keep them relatively intact and have them work to cost down project
B and bring it to market. and then transition to a more well defined
GTA03.

Openmoko is not a part of FIC anymore we spun out in 2008.

Having said that, Project B, like all new category devices is a 
calculated risk. In my 11 years at Creative labs I did nothing but bring
new category products to market. It's hard, but it's not impossible.
Finishing GTA03 as it was defined, given our resources, was 
mathematically impossible. I dont know anything more distracting that 
trying to prove that 2+2=5. So, given the choice between what I know to 
be impossible and what I know to possible, I'll pick the possible 
everytime. so would you.
 
 Thanks for your emails on the subject so far,
 
 Joseph
 
 
 
 2009/4/7 Steve Mosher st...@openmoko.com:

 Gerald A wrote:
 Hi all,
 I originally wrote Lothar in private, and asked for his permission to repost
 to the list. There have been a few replies in the meantime, but there were
 some good points here.

 Now, I'm not a hardware guy, so take my input with a grain of salt, but I
 have been watching the project for a while, and as a software person I hope
 we can make it work.

 Lothar -- new comments are inline.

 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Lothar Behrens lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de
 wrote:
 On Sun, Apr 5, 2009 at 7:08 AM, Lothar Behrens 
 lothar.behr...@lollisoft.de wrote:

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money for
 a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 I have to say -- at this point, I don't think so. It's not that the concept
 is impossible, or as you mention above, that testing can't be done. But
 based on what OM and FIC before them have reported, it would be very hard.

 Yes, it would be hard, but FIC and OM have made a great job. We have a
 fully functioning phone, but we couldn't easy create our own prototypes to
 play with. Good ideas are published as the robotics project. If having a
 really open schematics and even the board design. one could change the
 formfactor and add his/her needed stuff to play with. If you have to worry
 about how to enter a completely new schematics from the PDF, the fence is
 higher to think about jumping over and just DO it.

 Steve has commented a bit about this, as far as a packaging and final
 production are concerned. There might be a possibility to build modular
 kits so different hardware (and software) combos could be tried out, but
 translating that into a widget that can be sold as a phone is also a
 consideration. We could put together an awesome phone as a kit that is about
 the size of a CD drive, but then find out that some parts we used aren't
 available in quantities or timelines that make sense to produce a phone. The
 concept is awesome, but I'm not sure it can feed into a real product -- but
 it's something to think about.
  Werner and I are discussing various possibilities. I rule nothing out.



 Principally, this is due to a moving target. Since everything is obsolete
 in a few months, the shelf life of products in the embedded space is very
 small. The next big hurdle is in getting specs. OM/FIC were producing
 thousands of devices and possibly more, so had better quantities then a
 hobby group might muster -- and still had poor access to hardware specs,
 when they got them. Now, of course, some of their decisions might have 
 been
 practical too (we can get 1000 more closed pieces from company X, while 
 we
 can only get ~100 more open pieces from company Y), we don't know.

 Yes, the technique is moving forward fast - for the real phone, not for a
 GSM module for sample :-)

 Today I have searched for a GSM module

Re: Slashdotted

Good comments All.

Let me inline some answers/explanations.

Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 
 Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)
 
 What is a open phone?
 
 Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?
 
 If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any  
 person, why don't we do the same for
 hardware?
 
 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have  
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money  
 for a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.

  At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides:
  1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire)
  2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel)

  And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old 
kid   tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt 
microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? 
because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their
business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in
1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK 
companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics;
and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies
and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming
to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS.
So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John
and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the
manhatten project later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive 
technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on 
his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS
aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D  The point: in the 
software world, a kid and an idea is  potentially a powerful force. The 
history of this is covered in this book:

Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three 
Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress 
Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers 
the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the 
acquisition of RenderMorphics.

The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy
to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is 
comparatively low.

Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul 
Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business
what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what
EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of 
the chip? Who was his fab?  was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow
for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc.
The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon
are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry
are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost.


So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that 
entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude
easier than entering the hardware business.

This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a
point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that
characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the
hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course, 
but one level up from that: designing
hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that
form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for
testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype
run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K.

I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you 
hit the compile button?

We've all sat there and said, just compile it, see if works. That's
easy in software. In Sean's presentation you'll see a slide.
gcc GTA02v5  doesnt work what that means is this. There are perhaps
some unconcious attitudes people have carried over from the software 
world that will jump up and bite them when they start to work in the 
hardware world. I'll use another metaphor. Building hardware  requires
a waterfall design process, at least in my experience. In the software 
world, outside of DOD and NASA, we'd be hard pressed to find projects
that followed a strict waterfall model.
In a waterfall model you start with requirements. And you don't write
a line of code until requirements are 100% done and complete and signed
off. Once the requirements are done. They don't change. Then, and only
then you get to do design. You are still not writing any code. when
design is 100% complete, you

Re: Slashdotted

Dr. N

  We are thinking down similar paths. See my other other posts.

  I will check out the satilite site. My sense is, without even looking,
  that a fair number of people working on the project probably had some 
aerospace background and were well schooled in the process of 
requirements driven product design. I dont want to clog up community 
with this talk so I'm trying to get a new list set up.

Steve


Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller wrote:
 Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a 
 future GTA03,
 
 I have also been thinking for a while in exactly the same direction. 
 Making the development of the GTA03 a community activity. Supported and 
 sponsored by individuals and companies who are interested in the results.
 
 On one hand HW development needs a clear and close communication between 
 people. On the other hand it needs a large number of supporters who keep 
 their fingers out until they are asked. But synchronizing activities is 
 much more difficult than with SW (using SVN or GIT).
 
 What we IMHO therefore need is:
 
 * a core team that works (at least semi-)professionally on it. I think 
 the community is large enough to provide enough members with all 
 expertise that is required (from mechanics over battery to RF etc.).
 * a clear milestone plan as in every successful hardware development 
 project
 * a specification freeze at some point in the milestone plan
 * openness to ask for help into the community to judge between several 
 similar technical solutions for the same requirement
 * funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a community 
 funds or society or association or however the legal form has to be 
 choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for students and go 
 upwards for individuals and companies. And special services (e.g. 
 managing the production of 100 customized units) could even provide more 
 funding for the organization.
 
 A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a 
 community should take a look at:
 
 http://www.amsat.org/
 
 Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50 satellites 
 in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than building an open 
 smartphone.
 
 Nikolaus
 
 
 Am 05.04.2009 um 19:39 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 

 Am 05.04.2009 um 18:14 schrieb Joerg Reisenweber:

 Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 [...]
 Hi Lothar,
 nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw
 development
 Steve mentioned in one of his current posts.

 I may read his post...


 Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in
 Eagle, and
 tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other
 half is a
 *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys,
 the RF
 guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc.

 It is indeed difficult. But otoh are many hw projects 
 (http://opencores.org/
  or http://opencollector.org/ for sample),
 or at least hw related.


 IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some
 layout task.
 Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in
 mind when
 creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters.


 I don't speak about outsourcing. I have made similar experiences with
 outsourcing:

 An EE project (motor control) should be outsourced, but the schematics
 were sent by faximile!
 The result was about writing an application to compare the netlists to
 compare the then distinct
 projects (different wire names and the like).

 So don't split any EE project or work with different versions without
 a CVS or SVN!

 But giving development boards or mobile phone development kits would
 be an option to
 broaden the idea behind open mobile phone. Say, a GSM kit could be
 used for the carPC hobby
 engineer. And there are really GSM modules sold by other companies. 
 (http://www.gsm-modem.de/
 )

 Then you have the control about your pcb design, but propably broaden
 your product palette.

 Not all developers need a complete telephone. But you could indeed get
 more value if the
 'components' of a mobile device also spread the globe - as a
 development kit or separately.

 for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by
 selling
 hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help
 EE guys in
 community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for
 production
 purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis
 with
 layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the
 guy
 who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You
 can't patch
 a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw
 POV on
 hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen
 proto PCB
 done

Re: Slashdotted

as always, ditto, what joerg said. I could release the GTA03 design 
files, but there value is limited. If the design were verified (DVT)
and made ready for production (PVT) then the design files would only
have value for somebody who wanted to quickly produce PCBs. As a 
resource for a design mod ( take out edge and add in 3G) it's of limited
value since that new design will have different dimensions and will
therefore have knock-on effects on ME and  RFs.. see joergs comment 
about the systems intgration systems engineering task ( layout,EE,ME, 
and procuremnt)

Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Lothar Behrens:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.
 Isn't it possible to also develop hardware collaboratively?
 [...]
 Hi Lothar,
 nope this won't fly. It's basically the sw pov approach to hw development 
 Steve mentioned in one of his current posts.
 Developing hw is more than creating a good looking schematics in Eagle, and 
 tasks like layout are partially done by autorouter and the other half is a 
 *close* *interactive* process between the layout gal, the EE guys, the RF 
 guys, the ME dept, sourcing dept etc etc.
 IIRC OM had some really nasty experience when outsourcing some layout task. 
 Just because the layout didn't understand exactly what EE had in mind when 
 creating the schem, and EE didn't closely check the work of layouters.
 
 for your Q about project files instead of pdf: OM is making money by selling 
 hw, so there's not much sense in publishing data that doesn't help EE guys in 
 community to understand the hw but instead is only needed for production 
 purposes. In the end you can't do anything on a single-device basis with 
 layout or schem proj data you couldn't do without it. Or are you the guy 
 who's etching 8-layer at home and soldering uBGA by hand? ;-) You can't patch 
 a ready-done 8layer PCB, no matter what your document files are (sw POV on 
 hw!). And no company is going to invest in producing some dozen proto PCB 
 done by anonymous community guys, without checking each and every trace and 
 footprint again what in the end for sure is more work than doing it inhouse 
 from scratch.
 Other companies tend to keep schematics closed to protect their IP, so we at 
 OM at least don't want to give asian cloners a kickstart without adding *any* 
 benefit for our customers.
 
 best regards
 jOERG
 
 
 
 
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Re: Buying a Freerunner

   not shipping with buzz fix yet.

   but im slowly pushing forward

Joerg Reisenweber wrote:
 Am So  5. April 2009 schrieb Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes:
 1. The phone selling for 299 on the main site, do es it have the bug
 fix? or might I still have that problem?
 From Steve recent email about getting the v7 through production I guess not.
 Steve also mentioned as many as possible on stock A6 getting fixed at fab.
 So if I got that right we are shipping with buzzfix right now.
 /j
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Slashdotted

Thanks Lothar.

I think Dr N and I will have some fruitful discussions on how to
start this. I'll contribute my time and experience as I am able to to
get this
going.

Lothar Behrens wrote:
Am 05.04.2009 um 21:00 schrieb Dr. H. Nikolaus Schaller:

Hi Lothar, Jörg, Sean, Steve, and all others who are interested in a
future GTA03,

[snip]

* funding of the project organization (e.g. we can set up a
community funds or society or association or however the legal form
has to be choosen). Funding levels could start at 5€ per year for
students and go upwards for individuals and companies. And special
services (e.g. managing the production of 100 customized units)
could even provide more funding for the organization.

And indeed we fund with the purchase of our phones. I mostly played
with the navit package and done some bug reports. It's a hobby and
thus it would
also move someone to fund in comunity sub projects when there is a way
of hand on soldering and the like.

Also I played with the CAD files, wrote a script to convert some of
them, that costs me about 1 day. It is a fund. The idea behind that
was to make the CAD
files available in more formats and thus propably push private case
mods.

A word to all those who think Hardware can not be developed by a
community should take a look at:

http://www.amsat.org/

Building, launching and operating not only 1 but approx. 50
satellites in the past 30 years is definitively more complex than
building an open smartphone.

Hmm. Then open source projects were not the first movements in the
spirit of openess :-)

This is a great sample.

Here are some links about mobile equipment resellers:

TFT displays:
http://www.cartft.com/catalog/gl/111

USB display
http://www.cartft.com/catalog/il/1057

carPC site (german):
http://www.car-pc.info/

A link to books about building car PC's (linked in the carPC site):
http://www.amazon.de/dp/0071468269?tag=cartftcom-21camp=1410creative=6378linkCode=as1creativeASIN=0071468269adid=044B8W2G03ATQDZ5ECZK;

This is unrelated but there are always people who build their own :-)

Lothar

-- | Rapid Prototyping | XSLT Codegeneration | http://www.lollisoft.de
Lothar Behrens
Heinrich-Scheufelen-Platz 2
73252 Lenningen

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Re: Slashdotted

thanks. During march I got so effin buried in other stuff that my 
community posting went to hell. I sat there looking at my community 
inbox grow and grow. And I thought I rather open my cell phone bill 
than plow through 1800 community mails but in the end you pay your cell 
phone bill and plow through those mails. As long as I keep the inbox 
empty every day, its a joy to read and respond.

Gunnar AAstrand Grimnes wrote:
 Nice posts Steve! This is what a community oriented company works like!
 Frequent, on-time, interesting and well-written emails from the inside!
 
 Keep it up!
 
 - Gunnar
 
 Steve Mosher wrote:
 Good comments All.

 Let me inline some answers/explanations.

 Lothar Behrens wrote:
 Hi,

 I am mostly reading and sometime writing here. If it was useful or  
 useless - I don't know. But anyway.

 Let me arse around with some stupid ideas :-)

 What is a open phone?

 Is it only open source software or is it also open hardware?

 If software could be developed virtually at any place and from any  
 person, why don't we do the same for
 hardware?

 Ok I cannot buy expensive equipment to test hardware that I may have  
 developed, but I virtually could
 develop hardware. But many developers at one subject could spend money  
 for a rent to let one of the
 team do outstanding tests.
   At the begining of Sean's presentation you will see two slides:
   1. a picture of Steve Ballmer ( the evil empire)
   2. A picture of paul Otilinni ( intel)

   And the point sean made about this was as follows; If a 15 year old 
 kid   tells ballmer that he has developed a technology that will disrupt 
 microsofts business, Ballmer would do well to listen to him. Why? 
 because with a computer and a compiler it is possible to disrupt their
 business or at least make there lives uncomfortable. Long ago back in
 1994 before MS had any 3D api in windows there were three small UK 
 companies that had 3D apis for the desktop: argonaut; Rendermorphics;
 and Criterion ( i worked there). These were really very small companies
 and what we did was keep gamers in DOS, while MS wanted to move gaming
 to windows. We disrupted their plans to move important apps into DOS.
 So they paid attention to us. I remember sitting with Alex st John
 and eric engstrom as they discussed what was originally called the
 manhatten project later to be directX. And the phrase disruptive 
 technologies came up over and over again. One guy even had a folder on 
 his desktop labeled disruptive technologies. In the end, MS
 aquired rendermorphics and it became Direct3D  The point: in the 
 software world, a kid and an idea is  potentially a powerful force. The 
 history of this is covered in this book:

 Drummond, Michael (November 2000). Renegades of the Empire: How Three 
 Software Warriors Started a Revolution Behind the Walls of Fortress 
 Microsoft. California: Three Rivers Press. ISBN 978-0609807453. Covers 
 the early years of DirectX development within Microsoft, including the 
 acquisition of RenderMorphics.

 The bottom line on software is this: the business of software is easy
 to disrupt because the barriers to entry ( the cost of tools) is 
 comparatively low.

 Now, lets look at hardware. If that same 15 year kid came to Paul 
 Otillini and said he had technology that would disrupt Intels business
 what would paul do. He'd ask the kid who his investors were? ask what
 EDA tools did he use? Synopsis? did he have a cycle accurate C-SIM of 
 the chip? Who was his fab?  was he planning an ASIC flow or COT flow
 for the chip, what tools did they use for floor planning, routing etc.
 The cost of these tools and the cost of proving something in silicon
 are in the millions of dollars. Hardware is hard. The barriers to entry
 are huge, not only IP barriers but sheer cost.


 So, Sean's basic point in those first two slides is that 
 entering/disrupting the software business is orders of magnitude
 easier than entering the hardware business.

 This of course is an extreme comparison, used however to make a
 point. We should be on guard against notions and attitudes that
 characterize the hardware business as easy. At OM we entered the
 hardware business at the system level. Not designing chips of course, 
 but one level up from that: designing
 hardware systems. Here too, however, you see costs and risks that
 form barriers to entry. For example, the test lab we maintain for
 testing phones has 5Million dollars of equipment. A prototype
 run of an evaluation board can cost 50K USD. 20 phones: 50K.

 I use this analogy. You write your code in a series of units.
 you unit test them. Then you do your first integration.
 You set up your make files and I charge you 50K to hit return. would you 
 hit the compile button?

 We've all sat there and said, just compile it, see if works. That's
 easy in software. In Sean's presentation you'll see a slide.
 gcc GTA02v5  doesnt work what that means is this. There are perhaps
 some unconcious attitudes

Re: Buying a Freerunner