Re: Government License
On Jul 2, 2014, at 10:05 PM, Henri Yandell bay...@apache.org wrote: On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 12:24 AM, David Welton dav...@dedasys.com wrote: Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Which is, once again, neither 'free software' nor open source because it goes against the definition. You can't have it both ways: you can't exclude people from using it because they are military, gay, Illinois nazis, Alaskan women, Liechtensteiners or whatever else you happen to dislike. At risk of sounding flippant; the original poster didn't indicate he wanted a license that would be compatible with the definitions of free software or open source :) True, but it was posted on an Apache community list, which kind of implies it :) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Government License
Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Which is, once again, neither 'free software' nor open source because it goes against the definition. You can't have it both ways: you can't exclude people from using it because they are military, gay, Illinois nazis, Alaskan women, Liechtensteiners or whatever else you happen to dislike. -- David N. Welton http://www.dedasys.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Government License
Is it maybe possible not to exclude people or organisations, but concrete usage scenarios instead? Like cyber crime and/or spying Johannes # web: http://www.jgeppert.com twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep 2014-07-02 9:24 GMT+02:00 David Welton dav...@dedasys.com: Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Which is, once again, neither 'free software' nor open source because it goes against the definition. You can't have it both ways: you can't exclude people from using it because they are military, gay, Illinois nazis, Alaskan women, Liechtensteiners or whatever else you happen to dislike. -- David N. Welton http://www.dedasys.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Government License
On 2 July 2014 09:42, Jan Matèrne j...@materne.de wrote: Even if you could exclude cyber crime and spying from a legal use by your license - do you really think that these users would follow your license? of course they would not, but that is beside the point. If you in a license exclude a specific group of people (like redhaired vikings), it would not hold up in court, and you run the risk of being sued for being against a minority. You can anytime exclude a specific use in your license, a good example is pro. licenses that often exclude use in conjunction with nuclear plants. Having made an exclusion in the license, is a possibility to sue for illegal use, or much more important, in case of goverments, bad press (much much effective at the fraction of the cost). rgds jan I Jan *Von:* Johannes Geppert [mailto:jo...@apache.org] *Gesendet:* Mittwoch, 2. Juli 2014 09:37 *An:* community@apache.org *Betreff:* Re: Government License Is it maybe possible not to exclude people or organisations, but concrete usage scenarios instead? Like cyber crime and/or spying Johannes # web: http://www.jgeppert.com twitter: http://twitter.com/jogep 2014-07-02 9:24 GMT+02:00 David Welton dav...@dedasys.com: Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Which is, once again, neither 'free software' nor open source because it goes against the definition. You can't have it both ways: you can't exclude people from using it because they are military, gay, Illinois nazis, Alaskan women, Liechtensteiners or whatever else you happen to dislike. -- David N. Welton http://www.dedasys.com/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Government License
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 2:24 AM, David Welton dav...@dedasys.com wrote: Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Which is, once again, neither 'free software' nor open source because it goes against the definition. You can't have it both ways: you can't exclude people from using it because they are military, gay, Illinois nazis, Alaskan women, Liechtensteiners or whatever else you happen to dislike. I'm with you, Jake.
Re: Government License
Op 2 jul. 2014, om 10:33 heeft Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 2:24 AM, David Welton dav...@dedasys.com wrote: Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Which is, once again, neither 'free software' nor open source because it goes against the definition. You can't have it both ways: you can't exclude people from using it because they are military, gay, Illinois nazis, Alaskan women, Liechtensteiners or whatever else you happen to dislike. I'm with you, Jake. But I would like to keep the line exactly there - near what is generally seen as some sort of denial/exclusion to groups of _people_ based on some form of _prejudice_. As that follows the various legal systems, interpretation of the constitution or whatever in most countries (and almost certainly the contemporary interpretation of those). Excluding certain types of use, certain institutions or other ‚non people’ things is just as undesirable. But I think the situation around this is a bit more complex there - and I think, we, as a community, should cut developers a bit more slack. As there you run into the issue that local laws, legislation and regulation. Which can force developers in specific communities to be cautious for certain areas. A well known one is software used in nuclear installations; others are medical (in quite a few countries), military (in very few) and aviation (decreasingly the case). Dw.
Re: Government License
Nope... Freedome #0 and OSD #6 On Jul 2, 2014, at 3:37 AM, Johannes Geppert jo...@apache.org wrote: Is it maybe possible not to exclude people or organisations, but concrete usage scenarios instead? Like cyber crime and/or spying - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
RE: Government License
The application of local law is a different matter. There is generally no reason to specify it in a license. Software with a mandated back-door or key-escrow arrangement in its implementation can certainly be open-source unless there is a legal prohibition of disclosing such code, in which case it is not open-source, is it (and that action may be in violation of an open-source license, but that’s a different matter). Disclaimers and statements of warranty are different, although some licenses require that disclaimers be preserved. It is one thing to disclaim software as unsuitable for use in situations where there are hazards to life and property, such as nuclear reactor control software or pacemaker devices, and another to have the software be open-source. The famous Java disclaimer about life-threatening situations is a disclaimer. The obligation to perpetuate the disclaimer is part of a licensing arrangement around the Java trademark and certification process, and doesn’t have anything to do with open-source licensing. The OpenJDK is under GPL2 with a class-path exception, so there is explicitly no warranty whatsoever for any use whatsoever. The special Java disclaimer is not present. (See http://hg.openjdk.java.net/jdk9/jdk9/jdk/file/2df45ac1bf49/LICENSE. - Dennis From: Dirk-Willem van Gulik [mailto:di...@webweaving.org] Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2014 01:46 To: community@apache.org Cc: David Welton Subject: Re: Government License Op 2 jul. 2014, om 10:33 heeft Greg Stein gst...@gmail.com mailto:gst...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: [ … ] But I think the situation around this is a bit more complex there - and I think, we, as a community, should cut developers a bit more slack. As there you run into the issue that local laws, legislation and regulation. Which can force developers in specific communities to be cautious for certain areas. A well known one is software used in nuclear installations; others are medical (in quite a few countries), military (in very few) and aviation (decreasingly the case). Dw.
Re: Government License
On Wed, Jul 2, 2014 at 12:24 AM, David Welton dav...@dedasys.com wrote: Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Which is, once again, neither 'free software' nor open source because it goes against the definition. You can't have it both ways: you can't exclude people from using it because they are military, gay, Illinois nazis, Alaskan women, Liechtensteiners or whatever else you happen to dislike. At risk of sounding flippant; the original poster didn't indicate he wanted a license that would be compatible with the definitions of free software or open source :) Hen
Re: Government License
Closest I've seen in the 'free' area is licensing that forbids military uses. Hen On Monday, June 30, 2014, McGovern, James james.mcgov...@hp.com wrote: Has anyone ever explored creation of a license model that forbids the Federal Government in using its software? For example, you may want to create a new encryption algorithm but for whatever reasons, don’t want the NSA to have access to it. http://facebook.com/McGovernForCT
Re: Government License
On 06/30/2014 09:40 AM, McGovern, James wrote: Has anyone ever explored creation of a license model that forbids the Federal Government in using its software? For example, you may want to create a new encryption algorithm but for whatever reasons, don’t want the NSA to have access to it. If so, it's automatically not compliant with the Open Source Definition: 5. No Discrimination Against Persons or Groups 6. No Discrimination Against Fields of Endeavor (See: http://opensource.org/osd-annotated) Best, jzb -- Joe Brockmeier j...@zonker.net Twitter: @jzb http://www.dissociatedpress.net/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Government License
That wouldn't be an open source license. Remember freedom #1 - free to be able to use in any manner for any purpose. That said there are actually a number of licenses that 'no evil' clauses in them; and IIRC there are licenses that forbid use by the US government; though a quick google failed me. But again, they aren't open source. --David On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:40 AM, McGovern, James james.mcgov...@hp.com wrote: Has anyone ever explored creation of a license model that forbids the Federal Government in using its software? For example, you may want to create a new encryption algorithm but for whatever reasons, don’t want the NSA to have access to it. http://facebook.com/McGovernForCT - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Government License
Sure. But then it wouldn't be either an Open Source nor a Free Software license. On Jun 30, 2014, at 10:40 AM, McGovern, James james.mcgov...@hp.com wrote: Has anyone ever explored creation of a license model that forbids the Federal Government in using its software? For example, you may want to create a new encryption algorithm but for whatever reasons, don’t want the NSA to have access to it. http://facebook.com/McGovernForCT - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
Re: Government License
On Mon, Jun 30, 2014 at 10:40 AM, McGovern, James james.mcgov...@hp.com wrote: Has anyone ever explored creation of a license model that forbids the Federal Government in using its software? For example, you may want to create a new encryption algorithm but for whatever reasons, don’t want the NSA to have access to it. Aside from the question of whether this violates the definition of open source, there is also the question of federal sovereign immunity (called crown immunity in some countries), the concept by which a state limits its ability to be subject to civil suits. Regardsm -Rob http://facebook.com/McGovernForCT - To unsubscribe, e-mail: community-unsubscr...@apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: community-h...@apache.org
