Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Hi, Risto H. Kurppa wrote: AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects We have imported the opencellid data once, to bring right now better coverage to the users. But this is supposed to be temporary. The target being to have only openBmap data or data from projects which share the level of quality we aim at. AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels. Yes, we want the data to be of the best possible quality. This implies logging more details. And we try to make the clients sticking to this. 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj cellhunter cells? There are not 7 M cells. 140K or so I think. And at the time of the last import, no cellhunter data had made their way to opencellid database yet. But it was planned by cellhunter, thus we did not want to have to import them, and have to solve the conflicts when importing opencellid (embedding cellhunter data). 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet I am working on a D-Bus service giving your location on your phone, note/net-book using an embedded database. Help is welcome :-) 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner Opencellid said there is... I think he referred to cellhunter, because cellhunter said he would upload the data from his project to opencellid on a regular basis. I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just easiest to use. Partly thanks to your feedback that I have tried to take into account. Thanks for this! Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Hi Thomas, Thomas Landspurg wrote: Hello Risto, Here is a few facts from such FAQ: Not all accurate, though. Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the 'untrusted ones') Absolutely correct. Number is on your side. One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID provides a complete access to the data and the measures. Does cellhunter not provide access to all the collected data? OpenBmap has on his main page the link to download all the data files, exactly as sent by the users. This is a fact you may have checked easily, or asked. For me the main difference between the projects, is that openBmap is focusing on the quality of the data. OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have any OpenMoko phone to test it. Do you mean cellhunter? I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration effort. Yes, glad you came back after I contacted you about three weeks ago, in order to reopen the dialog. Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Leonti Bielski wrote: So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project? Please see the nice work from Christian Gagneraud in the archive about comparison of what's get logged/stored by CH, OBM and OCI logger/database: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2009-June/049238.html Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Thomas Landspurg wrote: Again , and clarifiacation: ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells), the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;) OpenCellID: 433 574 cells CellHunter: 148 943 cells OpenBMap: 82 963 cells (sorry for talking the risk of being the 'bad' guy agin, but at the end that's a little bit annoying) No problem. This is absolutely correct. Stating facts never hurts :-) Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Great, good to know that you are back. So I would like to be sure that you received my latest emails / linked in invitation/facebook inviation in order to make sure that we still can continue to discuss! :-) 2009/9/3 Onen onen...@free.fr: Hi, I was away from my computer, I try to go now through my emails... Thomas Landspurg wrote: Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions I have some point of disagreement, Please tell. but I would like first to stay polite You imply you think you have good reasons not to. I think you should simply tell what you think. and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he disappear? !!! I am trying to contact him since more than a week without success I find very ironic that you find more than a week thaat long. Onen -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Hello Risto, That's exactly the objective.There is a clear difference and complementarity between a general purpose database and the CellsHunter game for instance. The good news is that we are progressing well with CellsHunter to integrate their database. Currently the integration has been done once but I hope to integrate this much easily soon... I still hope to convince OpenBMap to don't recreate another database focused on OpenMoko but use and improve a general purpose project. I am sure that that's the spirit of Onen, but it seems that we had some communication issue that I should be solved soon. The final benefit, at the end, is to provide the best not in only in term of coverage but also in terms of accuracy database. As a reminder, we are open to any suggestion on how to imprement the API, features, missing fields, etc. 2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: I have no idea what's going on between you people but: Now that I had a little thought, I really don't care how many copies of the database we have. All I care about is that a) there's a way to use the data (=a client capable to locate me based on the GSM cells around me) b) the client uses the database with most cells. - as long as all three projects have proper API's to import/export data and they do it from the other 2 projects things work. It kind of makes sense if the projects use different ways to collect the data. One has it as a competition, one uses some clients to collect the data, another uses other clients and projects. And in the end they all benefit from the work of others. Just some points for you to discuss: a) common api or data format to import/export b) common api to submit cells r - goes out to find some cells (no, not really, I'll watch an episode of CSI :) -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Thomas Landspurgt.landsp...@8motions.com wrote: That's exactly the objective.There is a clear difference and complementarity between a general purpose database and the CellsHunter game for instance. The good news is that we are progressing well with CellsHunter to integrate their database. I think this should be something done ~weekly; syncing the databases. I still hope to convince OpenBMap to don't recreate another database focused on OpenMoko but use and improve a general purpose project. I can't see why openbmap would focus on OpenMoko more than any other projects. They talk about Windows Mobile and Freerunner on the front page I am sure that that's the spirit of Onen, but it seems that we had some communication issue that I should be solved soon. I don't know about your issues, just don't let it effect your co-operation. If you think it's good to work together, do it. The final benefit, at the end, is to provide the best not in only in term of coverage but also in terms of accuracy database. OpenBmap stores this data: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/myposition/wiki/log_format * mcc * mnc * lon * lat * alt * heading * speed * hdop * vdop * pdop * swid: software id of the logger * swver: software version of the logger * lac: decimal value * id: decimal value of the cell id * ss: signal strength in dBm * rxlev: optional * ta: timing advance, optional * speed: in km/h OpenCellID stores these (source: http://opencellid.org/api) mcc: mobile country code(decimal) mnc: mobile network code(decimal) lac: locale area code (in decimal) cellid: value of the cell id (in decimal) measured_at (optionnal) the time of the measure... lat:latitude when the measure has been taken lon:longitude when the measure has been taken CellHunter seems to be the app-specific you were talking about. Didn't find specs to tell what data it sends (didn't check the source). I think alt, speed and GPS precision etc information can be useful in calculating the position of the cells. As a reminder, we are open to any suggestion on how to imprement the API, features, missing fields, etc. Please add sopport for at least alt, speed, heading, hdop, vdop, pdop, signal strength. If the projects plan to share their data, all projects should gather the same (full!) data of the cells to reach the highest possible precision. Coverage is something you'll be able to reach by everyone focusing on their own projects AND sharing the data. I must say I like opencellID API: it has clear addresses how to put/get cell information or GPS location. THis is something where openbmap is behind. And if OpenCellID has a nice api, it's good, but if I see that it doesn't use speed nor hdop/vdop/alt in calculating the location I trust openbmap more - but it's lacking the proper API. - work for both of you to do. Focus on it, not in rhetorics communication issues. Just make your project better than the other one is and share the data. It's the best for the community! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Risto H. Kurppari...@kurppa.fi wrote: OpenBmap stores this data: http://sourceforge.net/apps/trac/myposition/wiki/log_format * mcc * mnc * lon * lat * alt * heading * speed * hdop * vdop * pdop * swid: software id of the logger * swver: software version of the logger * lac: decimal value * id: decimal value of the cell id * ss: signal strength in dBm * rxlev: optional * ta: timing advance, optional * speed: in km/h OpenCellID stores these (source: http://opencellid.org/api) mcc: mobile country code(decimal) mnc: mobile network code(decimal) lac: locale area code (in decimal) cellid: value of the cell id (in decimal) measured_at (optionnal) the time of the measure... lat:latitude when the measure has been taken lon:longitude when the measure has been taken Ok, downloaded the cellhunter database, this is what it stores: providercell_mcccell_mnccell_la cell_id cell_arfcn signal gps_timegps_lat gps_longgps_alt gname local_time cell_type IL ORANGE 425 1 3AFCA2F992 19 1252151461 32.3668973 34.8627705 17.44 Baruch 1252185642 old_oldgps_near IL ORANGE 425 1 3AFC7D54630 6 1252151461 32.3668973 34.8627705 17.44 Baruch 1252185370 old_oldgps_near IL ORANGE 425 1 1D6079CD107 17 1252151461 32.3668973 34.8627705 17.44 Baruch 1252185368 new_gps altitude is stored, good speed missing, bad hdop/vdop/pdop missing heading missing (ok, I can't right now see how to use it but why not to store it, it might become useful in the future..) cell arfcn, no idea what's that.. So anyway also cellhunter could add some fields here and as it's on Freerunner only, it shouldn't be too hard to also add the support to the client. r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Btw you all three (openbmap, cellhunter, opencellid) devels are warmly welcome to join FOSS-GPS -mailing list (http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/foss-gps) - I'd like to see discussion about the algorithms you use to calculate the position of the cells. It must be something else than just the average... As a used I'd like to know it but also I think there's some optimization to be done in the field. If OpenBMap uses also speed GPS precision information alt in the calculation, I'd like to see the algorithm.. r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 7:55 PM, Risto H. Kurppari...@kurppa.fi wrote:
Ok, downloaded the cellhunter database, this is what it stores:
provider cell_mcc cell_mnc cell_la cell_id cell_arfcn
signal gps_time gps_lat gps_long gps_alt gname local_time
cell_type
IL ORANGE 425 1 3AFC A2F9 92 19 1252151461
32.3668973 34.8627705 17.44 Baruch 1252185642
old_oldgps_near
IL ORANGE 425 1 3AFC 7D54 630 6 1252151461
32.3668973 34.8627705 17.44 Baruch 1252185370
old_oldgps_near
IL ORANGE 425 1 1D60 79CD 107 17 1252151461
32.3668973 34.8627705 17.44 Baruch 1252185368 new_gps
altitude is stored, good
speed missing, bad
hdop/vdop/pdop missing
heading missing (ok, I can't right now see how to use it but why not
to store it, it might become useful in the future..)
cell arfcn, no idea what's that..
So anyway also cellhunter could add some fields here and as it's on
Freerunner only, it shouldn't be too hard to also add the support to
the client.
I looked at common api to submit cells and found that the openmoko
OBM logger app was missing *one* field (arfcn) that cellhunter api
wanted. Both being opensource, here's my hackish solution to patch the
OBM logger to write that field and a python script to submit records
produced by that patched OBM to cellhunter. You have to run this after
collecting the logs but before you move them to the Processed Logs
folder in OBM. So I do it before I do Upload in the OBM logger app.
YMMV, hopefully the real logger app developers can work something out
between themselves.
from xml.dom import minidom
import os,dbus,urllib
OBMhunter submitter 0.1.0 maxi...@lambdacomplex.org
Submits appropriate openBMap xml logs to cellhunter DB.
Installation:
Patch the openBMap logger library:
patch obm_hunter-logger.py.patch
Change the group name (gname), group password (gpass) and device id (a
random number - check .cellhunter.conf if you want to be consistent) if
you want your results to count for a group's score. Otherwise leave
defaults to remain anonymous.
Then just run the OBM logger as usual but you have to run this script after
collecting the logs
but before you move them to the Processed Logs folder in OBM. So I do it before
I do Upload in
the OBM logger app.
gname=
gpass=
device_id=0
bus = dbus.SystemBus()
ogsmd_obj = bus.get_object( org.freesmartphone.ogsmd,
/org/freesmartphone/GSM/Device )
ogsmd_network_iface = dbus.Interface( ogsmd_obj,
org.freesmartphone.GSM.Network )
data = ogsmd_network_iface.GetStatus()
provider = urllib.quote(data['provider'])
path=/home/root/.openBmap/Logs/
dirList=os.listdir(path)
for fname in dirList:
print Processing + fname
dom = minidom.parse(path + fname)
for scannode in dom.getElementsByTagName(scan):
for gpsnode in scannode.getElementsByTagName(gps):
time = int(gpsnode.getAttribute(time))
lat = float(gpsnode.getAttribute(lat))
long = float(gpsnode.getAttribute(lng))
alt = float(gpsnode.getAttribute(alt))
for child in scannode.childNodes:
if gsm in child.tagName:
cell_mcc = int(child.getAttribute(mcc))
cell_mnc = int(child.getAttribute(mnc))
cell_la= int(child.getAttribute(lac))
cell_id= int(child.getAttribute(id))
if (child.getAttribute(rxlev) != )
(child.getAttribute(arfcn) != ):
signal =
int(child.getAttribute(rxlev))
cell_arfcn =
int(child.getAttribute(arfcn))
serving= 1 if (child.tagName ==
gsmserving) else 0
URL =
http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/submit.php?provider=%scell_mcc=%dcell_mnc=%dcell_la=%xcell_id=%xsignal=%dtime=%dlat=%flong=%falt=%fgname=%sgpass=%sdevice_id=%dcell_arfcn=%dserving=%d
%(provider,
cell_mcc,cell_mnc,cell_la,cell_id,signal,time,lat,long,alt,gname,gpass,device_id,cell_arfcn,serving)
os.system('wget --user-agent OBMhunter
0.1.0 offline maxi...@lambdacomplex.org -q --output-document=- \' + URL +
'\')
print \n
obm_hunter-logger.py.patch
Description: Binary data
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Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Alex (Maxious) Sadleirmaxi...@gmail.com wrote: I looked at common api to submit cells and found that the openmoko OBM logger app was missing *one* field (arfcn) that cellhunter api wanted. Both being opensource, here's my hackish solution to patch the OBM logger to write that field and a python script to submit records produced by that patched OBM to cellhunter. You have to run this after collecting the logs but before you move them to the Processed Logs folder in OBM. So I do it before I do Upload in the OBM logger app. YMMV, hopefully the real logger app developers can work something out between themselves. Nice hack! Do you have any idea what's arfcn - how do you generate it? If you can generate it after the data's collected, couldn't it be created server-side (to me it sound's redundant information if it's generated from other data). And I don't support the idea of one client uploading to several databases, the databases should do the syncing.. r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 8:49 PM, Risto H. Kurppari...@kurppa.fi wrote: On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Alex (Maxious) Sadleirmaxi...@gmail.com wrote: I looked at common api to submit cells and found that the openmoko OBM logger app was missing *one* field (arfcn) that cellhunter api wanted. Both being opensource, here's my hackish solution to patch the OBM logger to write that field and a python script to submit records produced by that patched OBM to cellhunter. You have to run this after collecting the logs but before you move them to the Processed Logs folder in OBM. So I do it before I do Upload in the OBM logger app. YMMV, hopefully the real logger app developers can work something out between themselves. Nice hack! Do you have any idea what's arfcn - how do you generate it? If you can generate it after the data's collected, couldn't it be created server-side (to me it sound's redundant information if it's generated from other data). ARFCN (Absolute Radio Frequency Channel Number) specifies a pair of physical radio carriers and channels used for transmission and reception on the Um Interface in GSM cellular networks, one for the uplink signal and one for the downlink signal. So it's data to be collected from the cell station rather than something that could be generated/assumed/estimated. Without seeing the cellhunter location algorithm, I don't know how it helps location calculation either... but if the other two DB don't store it, then it can't be that important, right? ;) And I don't support the idea of one client uploading to several databases, the databases should do the syncing.. Well I was having to run the loggers in parallel anyway but it's easier to get one working consistently rather than two... and I prefer the way the OBM logger is designed anyway :) DB sync is where it should be though. I've uploaded different areas to either cellhunter or OBM so it would be good to get them combined efficently. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Hello Risto, note that strengh is already part of the opencellid api. As I've pointed out once, the problem is not all client have access to these data. So do we add all possible fields in the database? Out of the 45 millions of measures, only several millions might have all these data. My suggestion, implemented today in the opencellid api is the following: add the missing informaiton in the extraInfo field, as tag/value. For instance, extraInfo=speed=123,alt=12,hdop=12,vdop=6 etc. This is already used by some tools for instance the cellhunter importer put the team name as gteam=team name value. Then, the algorithm to define the cell might use these extra info. The bad thing is that it would by quite difficult to do query on this extra things. I do not thing that it's the biggest issue. The other problem might be that we need to find a common naming for all possible new fields and ensure validity. For instance, use alt and not altitude, etc One possible option is to add hese as extra possible parameters so it will be checked, but store them as value/pair. Other fields could be added also, to store for instance user agent instead of software version for others type of platforms, or accuracy but not defined in hdop/vdop value but in others type (see JSR179 or Android API). Any opininon on this. -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Thanks for the information, I'll subscribe to it. 2009/9/6 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: Btw you all three (openbmap, cellhunter, opencellid) devels are warmly welcome to join FOSS-GPS -mailing list (http://lists.osgeo.org/mailman/listinfo/foss-gps) - I'd like to see discussion about the algorithms you use to calculate the position of the cells. It must be something else than just the average... As a used I'd like to know it but also I think there's some optimization to be done in the field. If OpenBMap uses also speed GPS precision information alt in the calculation, I'd like to see the algorithm.. r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 7:18 AM, Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi wrote: On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Thomas Landspurgt.landsp...@8motions.com wrote: Again , and clarifiacation: ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells), the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;) Yes, I knew that OBM had imported from OCI but to me the only thing that matters is how many cells a service has to be used to calculate the locations of cells, no matter where's the data from. The more data a service has, the more reliable usable it is for a user (if there were applications capable of using any of the services to do the location). So if all three services would sync their info daily/weekly with having some of their own extra fields I'd be happy as they all would benefit from each other and they all would have the same sources to do the locationing the only difference being the algorithms. Yes of course it'd be a waste of work to maintain three databases.. but isn't that the case now anyway? I would be fine also to reintegrate cells from CellsHunter into OpenCellID too Is there something that stops you from doing so? r this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view: openBmap has the most cells openBmap maps the most information all I want is as much cells as possible AND know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data (AFAIK cellhunter logs less information) openBmap does the trick for both of them this is of course a personal opinion y ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Yorick Mokoyorickm...@gmail.com wrote: this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view: openBmap has the most cells openBmap maps the most information all I want is as much cells as possible AND know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data (AFAIK cellhunter logs less information) openBmap does the trick for both of them +1 (and I also know that onen/openBmap is working on software to do the location based on GPS cells) But if the projects want to co-operate and use same databases I'm thumbs up for it! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions I have some point of disagreement, but I would like first to stay polite and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he disappear? I am trying to contact him since more than a week without success 2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Yorick Mokoyorickm...@gmail.com wrote: this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view: openBmap has the most cells openBmap maps the most information all I want is as much cells as possible AND know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data (AFAIK cellhunter logs less information) openBmap does the trick for both of them +1 (and I also know that onen/openBmap is working on software to do the location based on GPS cells) But if the projects want to co-operate and use same databases I'm thumbs up for it! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
he used to be on #openmoko-cdevel (nick: OnenBmap) but I haven't seen him in a long time maybe somebody there knows more about it On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 11:40 AM, Thomas Landspurg t.landsp...@8motions.comwrote: Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions I have some point of disagreement, but I would like first to stay polite and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he disappear? I am trying to contact him since more than a week without success 2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 10:35 AM, Yorick Mokoyorickm...@gmail.com wrote: this is how I see it, from an end-user point-of-view: openBmap has the most cells openBmap maps the most information all I want is as much cells as possible AND know that I'm logging everything that increases the quality of the data (AFAIK cellhunter logs less information) openBmap does the trick for both of them +1 (and I also know that onen/openBmap is working on software to do the location based on GPS cells) But if the projects want to co-operate and use same databases I'm thumbs up for it! r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On 9/3/09, Thomas Landspurg t.landsp...@8motions.com wrote: Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions I have some point of disagreement, but I would like first to stay polite and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he disappear? I am trying to contact him since more than a week without success He just returned (few minutes ago). He explained on IRC that he was offline thanks to his new internet provider :P -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak dos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Hi, I was away from my computer, I try to go now through my emails... Thomas Landspurg wrote: Guys, I start to be a little bit deseperate by these discussions I have some point of disagreement, Please tell. but I would like first to stay polite You imply you think you have good reasons not to. I think you should simply tell what you think. and discuss with the OpenBMap guy. Does somebody knows where he disappear? !!! I am trying to contact him since more than a week without success I find very ironic that you find more than a week thaat long. Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
I have no idea what's going on between you people but: Now that I had a little thought, I really don't care how many copies of the database we have. All I care about is that a) there's a way to use the data (=a client capable to locate me based on the GSM cells around me) b) the client uses the database with most cells. - as long as all three projects have proper API's to import/export data and they do it from the other 2 projects things work. It kind of makes sense if the projects use different ways to collect the data. One has it as a competition, one uses some clients to collect the data, another uses other clients and projects. And in the end they all benefit from the work of others. Just some points for you to discuss: a) common api or data format to import/export b) common api to submit cells r - goes out to find some cells (no, not really, I'll watch an episode of CSI :) -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Hello Risto, Here is a few facts from such FAQ: Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the 'untrusted ones') One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID provides a complete access to the data and the measures. OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have any OpenMoko phone to test it. I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration effort. Since the beginning, OpenCellID was focused on collecting the data and not writing clients for all platforms. I would be happy to support the OpenBMap client and do some modifications if needed. Regarding CellHunter, I would ba happy also to work on an integration. We had some early discussion, but I'll try to reactivate them. Regards, 2009/9/2 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrar...@1407.org wrote: How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ? I think someone could write a wiki page about this and include it in FAQ's :) CellHunter: 7milj cells, clients: http://www.opkg.org/package_111.html and http://www.opkg.org/package_175.html (and repositories?) OpenBMap: 479584 cells of which 82842 are 'trusted'*, client: http://www.opkg.org/package_186.html (and repositories) OpenCellID: 433459 cells, clients: http://www.opencellid.org/users/staticShow/download * trusted means it's collected via OpenBMap project, not imported from other projects. AFAIK, CellHunter is a competition (teams/individuals against each other) on collecting cells as OpenBmapOpenCellID - well, you just collect the cells. AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels. To me the whole thing is a big mess. Do we really need three projects. Let me bet, they all are now working on tools to use their own data to find the position of a phone, right? 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj cellhunter cells? 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just easiest to use. Which doesn't necessarily make it the best one of these three to contribute to. They call the diversity a richness of Open Source. Can't really see it here. r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project? For me it is a lot of fun to compete collecting cells. If it misses some data - let's just add more info about cells if necessary so then obm could import new data and everyone would be happy. Leonti Leonti On 9/2/09, Thomas Landspurg t.landsp...@8motions.com wrote: Hello Risto, Here is a few facts from such FAQ: Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the 'untrusted ones') One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID provides a complete access to the data and the measures. OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have any OpenMoko phone to test it. I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration effort. Since the beginning, OpenCellID was focused on collecting the data and not writing clients for all platforms. I would be happy to support the OpenBMap client and do some modifications if needed. Regarding CellHunter, I would ba happy also to work on an integration. We had some early discussion, but I'll try to reactivate them. Regards, 2009/9/2 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrar...@1407.org wrote: How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ? I think someone could write a wiki page about this and include it in FAQ's :) CellHunter: 7milj cells, clients: http://www.opkg.org/package_111.html and http://www.opkg.org/package_175.html (and repositories?) OpenBMap: 479584 cells of which 82842 are 'trusted'*, client: http://www.opkg.org/package_186.html (and repositories) OpenCellID: 433459 cells, clients: http://www.opencellid.org/users/staticShow/download * trusted means it's collected via OpenBMap project, not imported from other projects. AFAIK, CellHunter is a competition (teams/individuals against each other) on collecting cells as OpenBmapOpenCellID - well, you just collect the cells. AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels. To me the whole thing is a big mess. Do we really need three projects. Let me bet, they all are now working on tools to use their own data to find the position of a phone, right? 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj cellhunter cells? 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just easiest to use. Which doesn't necessarily make it the best one of these three to contribute to. They call the diversity a richness of Open Source. Can't really see it here. r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project? For me it is a lot of fun to compete collecting cells. If it misses some data - let's just add more info about cells if necessary so then obm could import new data and everyone would be happy. Leonti yes, it is lots of fun :) , the website is down now, what team do you kick for? :)) Petr ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On 9/2/09, Leonti Bielski prishe...@gmail.com wrote: So how good or bad the data from Cellhunter project? For me it is a lot of fun to compete collecting cells. If it misses some data - let's just add more info about cells if necessary so then obm could import new data and everyone would be happy. Leonti Leonti On 9/2/09, Thomas Landspurg t.landsp...@8motions.com wrote: Hello Risto, Here is a few facts from such FAQ: Most of the cells from OpenBMap are coming from OpenCellID (the 'untrusted ones') One of the main difference from the three is that only OpenCellID provides a complete access to the data and the measures. OpenCellId added a CVS uploader to import bulk CSV data files mainly to be compatible with the OpenBMap logger. I just don't have any OpenMoko phone to test it. I've been out of the mailing list from some time because I am not involved in the OpenMoko community (I am more involved in J2ME and others platforms), but I would be happy to reactivate the integration effort. Since the beginning, OpenCellID was focused on collecting the data and not writing clients for all platforms. I would be happy to support the OpenBMap client and do some modifications if needed. Regarding CellHunter, I would ba happy also to work on an integration. We had some early discussion, but I'll try to reactivate them. Regards, 2009/9/2 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: On Wed, Sep 2, 2009 at 2:47 AM, Rui Miguel Silva Seabrar...@1407.org wrote: How does CellHunter compare with OpenBMap ? I think someone could write a wiki page about this and include it in FAQ's :) CellHunter: 7milj cells, clients: http://www.opkg.org/package_111.html and http://www.opkg.org/package_175.html (and repositories?) OpenBMap: 479584 cells of which 82842 are 'trusted'*, client: http://www.opkg.org/package_186.html (and repositories) OpenCellID: 433459 cells, clients: http://www.opencellid.org/users/staticShow/download * trusted means it's collected via OpenBMap project, not imported from other projects. AFAIK, CellHunter is a competition (teams/individuals against each other) on collecting cells as OpenBmapOpenCellID - well, you just collect the cells. AFAIK, OpenBmap is told to import data from other projects AFAIK, OpenBmap was started because of different views about important data to collect between OpenCellID and OpenBMap devels. To me the whole thing is a big mess. Do we really need three projects. Let me bet, they all are now working on tools to use their own data to find the position of a phone, right? 1) if OpenBMap imports from other projects, why it's missing the 7milj cellhunter cells? 2) AFAIK There are no tools to benefit from the collected data yet 3) Can't see a OpenCellID client for Freerunner I earlier tried CellHunter, didn't work. For me OpenBmap is just easiest to use. Which doesn't necessarily make it the best one of these three to contribute to. They call the diversity a richness of Open Source. Can't really see it here. r When I tried Cellhunter (in early stage of its development), it didn't feel so bullet-proof and stable, and I noticed I was collecting points for invalid data which happened sometimes. And when moving, clicking update constanly was giving me always 1 point more, and offline mode wasn't so usable, so I had to colllect cells during GPRS connection, which wasn't so stable these days. Maybe it changed now (well, i would be supriced if it didn't :P), but openBmap client, data and website just feel better, and most of important FSO and SHR devs are using openBmap to collect cells - that's good enough recomendation to me ;) -- Sebastian Krzyszkowiak dos ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
About the amount of cells, could someone explain me how many cells (with some kind of location information) cellhunter knows: http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/images/cellhunter_statistic_all.png explained here: http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/?hideintro=1orderby=beginat= 7milj (don't know where I got it from.. sorry for misleading..) is the number of ALL submits but to me it looks like that the no of cells is around 141371 (NCG) + 7572 (OCnG) = 148 943 cells. The rest are just more gps information for a single cell. Am I wrong? So to recap: OpenBMap: 479740 cells (of which 82963 are 'trusted') OpenCellID: 433574 cells CellHunter: 148 943 cells r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
Again , and clarifiacation: ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells), the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;) OpenCellID: 433 574 cells CellHunter: 148 943 cells OpenBMap: 82 963 cells (sorry for talking the risk of being the 'bad' guy agin, but at the end that's a little bit annoying) I would be fine also to reintegrate cells from CellsHunter into OpenCellID too 2009/9/3 Risto H. Kurppa ri...@kurppa.fi: About the amount of cells, could someone explain me how many cells (with some kind of location information) cellhunter knows: http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/images/cellhunter_statistic_all.png explained here: http://ch.omoco.de/cellhunter/?hideintro=1orderby=beginat= 7milj (don't know where I got it from.. sorry for misleading..) is the number of ALL submits but to me it looks like that the no of cells is around 141371 (NCG) + 7572 (OCnG) = 148 943 cells. The rest are just more gps information for a single cell. Am I wrong? So to recap: OpenBMap: 479740 cells (of which 82963 are 'trusted') OpenCellID: 433574 cells CellHunter: 148 943 cells r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community -- Thomas LANDSPURG 8Motions Founder/CTO http://www.8motions.com http://www.opencellid.org ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: cellhunter - openbmap - opencellid revisited... (was Re: CellHunter is moving to a new server)
On Thu, Sep 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Thomas Landspurgt.landsp...@8motions.com wrote: Again , and clarifiacation: ObenBMap have in fact less than 82963 cells (the 'trusted' cells), the others are coming from OpenCellId! ;) Yes, I knew that OBM had imported from OCI but to me the only thing that matters is how many cells a service has to be used to calculate the locations of cells, no matter where's the data from. The more data a service has, the more reliable usable it is for a user (if there were applications capable of using any of the services to do the location). So if all three services would sync their info daily/weekly with having some of their own extra fields I'd be happy as they all would benefit from each other and they all would have the same sources to do the locationing the only difference being the algorithms. Yes of course it'd be a waste of work to maintain three databases.. but isn't that the case now anyway? I would be fine also to reintegrate cells from CellsHunter into OpenCellID too Is there something that stops you from doing so? r -- | risto h. kurppa | risto at kurppa dot fi | http://risto.kurppa.fi ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hi,
very nice work! Thanks for taking the time of doing this.
Christian Gagneraud wrote:
For OBM logger to be compatible with CH database, there's very few
data that need to be added to the OBM logger:
- provider: the network operator, as reported by fso.GSM.Network.g
getStatus() or Status() signal
Would not be too difficult ;-)
- arfcn: current channel number, as reported by
fso.GSM.Monitor.Get{Serving,Neighbour}CellInformation()
This will be in next version.
And only one data is expressed in a different unit:
- signal strength: OBM use dBm and CH use a scale as per %EM AT command
The dBm is a direct formula out of the GSM spec. So you should be able
to go from one to the other very easily.
So finally, it would be ideal to enhance slightly the OBM logger, this
way it will be universal in regards to the 3 databases. And this will
give the user the complete freedom to upload his data to whatever
database he wants (for example i would like to upload data to CH
server for the fun and still contribute to OBM because i'm convinced
of the higher quality of their data).
Well and what if cellhunter changes his API, and or the data it uploads?
I fear having to follow every move of cellhunter to catch up with his
modifications. In the end my app will be tagged as unstable/not working
every time it does not succeed in uploading to ch.
Cellhunter does have rules for the game (uploaded online, offline, maybe
depends of data) which leads to the number of points you get. I wonder
if you would get all the points you should, with an obm (fairly)
compatible logger.
Well if somebody feels like maintaining such a mechanism, he can get in
touch with me.
Some personal remarks (a bit OT):
- It's a pity that CH use signal strength in GSM scale, FSO use
percent and OBM dBm. There's lot of wasted CPU (and battery) around...
I try to think about cpu usage when building my application. But to be
honest, once I talked with someone about this, and he made a good point:
this is absolutely nothing in comparison of using python instead of C,
vala, etc.
Onen
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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Christian Gagneraud wrote:
Hi all,
I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some
data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert
data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data
are still usable by OBM.
Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of
course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?
I did a comparison of what's get logged/store by CH, OBM and OCI
logger/database:
Cell data:
==
OBM CH OCI
timex x x
providerx
mmc x x x
mnc x x x
lac x x x
id x x x
signal (1) x x
arfcn x
type (2)x (3)
ta x (3)
c1 x (4)
c2 x (4)
serving x x
GPS data:
=
OBM CH OCI
timex
lat x x x
longx x x
alt x x
heading x
speed x
hdopx
vdopx
pdopx
Meta data:
==
OBM CH OCI
hwmanuf x
hwidx x
hwver x
swidx x (5)
swver x x (5)
login/pass/key x x x
(1) OBM: signal strength in dBM and rxlevel in % (?), CH: signal
strength according to GSM specs
(2) Network type: GSM, UMTS, HSDPA, ...
(3) OBM: only with serving cells
(4) OBM: only with non-serving cells
(5) Via HTTP agent when uploading
So finally, OCI logs basic information, CH a bit more, and OBM a lot
more.
Here is the compatibility matrix between the loggers and the servers
(database):
SERVER
OCICHOBM
L G OCI x
O E CH x x
G R OBM xx
Both CH and OBM loggers can be used to populate OCI database.
For CH logger to be compatible with OBM database, there's lot of data
that need to be added to the CH logger.
For OBM logger to be compatible with CH database, there's very few
data that need to be added to the OBM logger:
- provider: the network operator, as reported by fso.GSM.Network.g
getStatus() or Status() signal
- arfcn: current channel number, as reported by
fso.GSM.Monitor.Get{Serving,Neighbour}CellInformation()
And only one data is expressed in a different unit:
- signal strength: OBM use dBm and CH use a scale as per %EM AT command
So finally, it would be ideal to enhance slightly the OBM logger, this
way it will be universal in regards to the 3 databases. And this will
give the user the complete freedom to upload his data to whatever
database he wants (for example i would like to upload data to CH
server for the fun and still contribute to OBM because i'm convinced
of the higher quality of their data).
Some personal remarks (a bit OT):
- I was really surprised to see that CH logger use AT commands
directly (via fso.GSM.Debug), whereas OBM logger use plainly the FSO
interface.
- It's a pity that CH use signal strength in GSM scale, FSO use
percent and OBM dBm. There's lot of wasted CPU (and battery) around...
Chris
PS: I don't pretend that this analysis is accurate nor mistake-free,
so please correct me if i'm wrong somewhere.
Chris.
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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
hi,
Christian Gagneraud schrieb:
Christian Gagneraud wrote:
Hi all,
I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some
data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server.
I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert
data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server?
I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data
are still usable by OBM.
Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of
course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best?
Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so?
I did a comparison of what's get logged/store by CH, OBM and OCI
logger/database:
Cell data:
==
OBM CH OCI
timex x x
providerx
mmc x x x
mnc x x x
lac x x x
id x x x
signal (1) x x
arfcn x
type (2)x (3)
ta x (3)
c1 x (4)
c2 x (4)
serving x x
GPS data:
=
OBM CH OCI
timex
lat x x x
longx x x
alt x x
heading x
speed x
hdopx
vdopx
pdopx
Cellhunter does save the gps time.
greetings, Sebastian
Meta data:
==
OBM CH OCI
hwmanuf x
hwidx x
hwver x
swidx x (5)
swver x x (5)
login/pass/key x x x
(1) OBM: signal strength in dBM and rxlevel in % (?), CH: signal
strength according to GSM specs
(2) Network type: GSM, UMTS, HSDPA, ...
(3) OBM: only with serving cells
(4) OBM: only with non-serving cells
(5) Via HTTP agent when uploading
So finally, OCI logs basic information, CH a bit more, and OBM a lot
more.
Here is the compatibility matrix between the loggers and the servers
(database):
SERVER
OCICHOBM
L G OCI x
O E CH x x
G R OBM xx
Both CH and OBM loggers can be used to populate OCI database.
For CH logger to be compatible with OBM database, there's lot of data
that need to be added to the CH logger.
For OBM logger to be compatible with CH database, there's very few
data that need to be added to the OBM logger:
- provider: the network operator, as reported by fso.GSM.Network.g
getStatus() or Status() signal
- arfcn: current channel number, as reported by
fso.GSM.Monitor.Get{Serving,Neighbour}CellInformation()
And only one data is expressed in a different unit:
- signal strength: OBM use dBm and CH use a scale as per %EM AT command
So finally, it would be ideal to enhance slightly the OBM logger, this
way it will be universal in regards to the 3 databases. And this will
give the user the complete freedom to upload his data to whatever
database he wants (for example i would like to upload data to CH
server for the fun and still contribute to OBM because i'm convinced
of the higher quality of their data).
Some personal remarks (a bit OT):
- I was really surprised to see that CH logger use AT commands
directly (via fso.GSM.Debug), whereas OBM logger use plainly the FSO
interface.
- It's a pity that CH use signal strength in GSM scale, FSO use
percent and OBM dBm. There's lot of wasted CPU (and battery) around...
Chris
PS: I don't pretend that this analysis is accurate nor mistake-free,
so please correct me if i'm wrong somewhere.
Chris.
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Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Christian Gagneraud schrieb: Sebastian Hammerl wrote: Hi, Hi Sebastian, about the conversion I cannot help you because I don't know the openbmap format. I talked with the openbmap owner about collaborating and got to the result that it will only happen in the way that openbmap can use the cellhunter data. I will not combine these two databases. There are some mails here around with reasons for that. Yes, i've read about this, and i think that it's worth logging too much data than not enough... But cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org which is as far as I know the largest open cellid database. And my opinion is that everyone should submit the data via cellhunter or something else to this database so there is one global one. Only with a good cover all over the world this data gets usefull. I've looked at opencellid.org website, and couldn't find any information concerning the database, how can a user access the data for example... there is an api documented at the homepage and you can download the raw data. I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be the cellhunter data in in future. That's a good point, but for example, yesterday evening i've uploaded lot of data (about 5 hours sampling every 10 seconds, while moving by boat along the coast), and now i would like to reuse these data, exploit them, plot them, ... with existing web application or by writing my own tool, the API offered by cellhunter doesn't really fit my needs that's why i want to have a look at OBM's API. Do you know how often CH is imported into opencellid, and how often opencellid are imported into OBM? cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to prepare the data for that but it will happen. Sebastian Cheers, Chris Greetings, Sebastian (CellHunter developer) Christian Gagneraud schrieb: Hi all, I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server. I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server? I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data are still usable by OBM. Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best? Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so? Chris. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hello. On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 10:14, Sebastian Hammerl wrote: Christian Gagneraud schrieb: Sebastian Hammerl wrote: I've looked at opencellid.org website, and couldn't find any information concerning the database, how can a user access the data for example... there is an api documented at the homepage and you can download the raw data. I bet he has the same issue I still have here with Firefox 3.0.9. The link list is not viewable. Try to mark all the text on the page with your mouse and you will discover those links. cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to prepare the data for that but it will happen. BTW, what will happen with the ARFCN informations then? regards Stefan Schmidt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Stefan Schmidt wrote: Hello. On Fri, 2009-06-05 at 10:14, Sebastian Hammerl wrote: Christian Gagneraud schrieb: Sebastian Hammerl wrote: I've looked at opencellid.org website, and couldn't find any information concerning the database, how can a user access the data for example... there is an api documented at the homepage and you can download the raw data. I bet he has the same issue I still have here with Firefox 3.0.9. The link list is not viewable. Well spotted!!! :) Really, when i visited the web site, i thought it was just an empty shell (no information, no docs, no links, nothing...), and i said to myself They should rename their web site notsoopencellid.org! But with you trick, the truth appears to me! :) Thanks, Chris Try to mark all the text on the page with your mouse and you will discover those links. cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to prepare the data for that but it will happen. BTW, what will happen with the ARFCN informations then? regards Stefan Schmidt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hi, Sebastian Hammerl wrote: about the conversion I cannot help you because I don't know the openbmap format. This is most probably doable, just a matter of converting it. What annoys me, is that ch will upload to oci, we will import oci data on regular basis. If we import the data from ch, we have to detect ch data in oci data when importing. Which makes more work. I talked with the openbmap owner about collaborating and got to the result that it will only happen in the way that openbmap can use the cellhunter data. I will not combine these two databases. There are some mails here around with reasons for that. Please see the email from Stefan, about elaborating on this. But cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org which is as far as I know the largest open cellid database. Not anymore, now that we have the data from oci, obm is the largest database ;-) . Why did we import it? We think the data from oci could be of better quality with some additions. So far, we could not get an agreement about this from Thomas. So we still aim at people logging through obm for better quality. But to propose right now the best coverage to our users, we use oci data too, where no obm data is available. But the idea is to replace it with obm data with time, as it comes in. And my opinion is that everyone should submit the data via cellhunter or something else to this database so there is one global one. Only with a good cover all over the world this data gets usefull. I disagree. Without a good quality, you will end up with lot of data (possibly) unuseful because less accurate, or corrupted (through buggy logging software, for example). Coverage is not the key by itself. And we proposed to merge our database in oci (with the extra fields we are interested in), but we did not get an answer about this. So if we upload to oci, we can only upload the smaller number of supported fields, thus we help building a less accurate database than we have. It does not make any sense to me. I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be the cellhunter data in in future. Cool, you make the announcement for us ;-) Joke aside, Nick is finishing testing it, that is the reason we did not talk about this so far. Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hi, Christian Gagneraud wrote: I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server. Thanks for the contributions! I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server? Please see my response in the other email (about detecting ch data in importing oci if we import ch data too). I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data are still usable by OBM. That is correct. And if the ch data ends up in oci, then we will import it indirectly. Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hi, Christian Gagneraud wrote: Sebastian Hammerl wrote: I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be the cellhunter data in in future. That's a good point, but for example, yesterday evening i've uploaded lot of data (about 5 hours sampling every 10 seconds, while moving by boat along the coast), and now i would like to reuse these data, exploit them, plot them, ... with existing web application or by writing my own tool, the API offered by cellhunter doesn't really fit my needs that's why i want to have a look at OBM's API. You can find the Web based API from obm here: http://realtimeblog.free.fr/api/openbmap_api.php Feel free to tell if this does not fit your needs. Let me know what you need, to see what I can do for you. I also have a prototype of D-bus service running on the phone, which uses local database built on top of obm data, to get my position. This is only a proof of concept, but it works. Do you know how often CH is imported into opencellid, and how often opencellid are imported into OBM? We import oci data in order to built better service right now to our users (see my other email for details). But we don't plan to do this very often. If you want to see your data in obm, the best way is to upload directly to it for sure. It gets processed right away. Cheers, Chris Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hi, Stefan Schmidt wrote: cellhunter ist not submitting to opencellid yet, because i have to prepare the data for that but it will happen. BTW, what will happen with the ARFCN informations then? That is a very good point. As I stated in another email on this thread, if we would upload obm data to oci, we could only upload the subset of data it supports. This annoys me, because if ch uploads to oci, and then obm import oci data, we lose some infos :-( But if we import ch data directly, we have to manage not to import from oci data, what comes from ch, which is more work... Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hi, thanks for the nice comments! Yorick Moko wrote: My personal preference goes out to openBmap, because I think they combine quality and quantity; quality: they log the most data (they are even working on TA) quantity: they have all the cells of cellhunter and opencellid For now, we only have the cells from oci, just to avoid misunderstanding. I could be mistaken but from what i heard from onen (the creator of openBmap) on ML and irc, I got the impression that he DOES want to work together, just not only sharing data, but i could be wrong For the records, Nick created openBmap, not me :-) Onen ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hi, about the conversion I cannot help you because I don't know the openbmap format. I talked with the openbmap owner about collaborating and got to the result that it will only happen in the way that openbmap can use the cellhunter data. I will not combine these two databases. There are some mails here around with reasons for that. But cellhunter will cooperate with opencellid.org which is as far as I know the largest open cellid database. And my opinion is that everyone should submit the data via cellhunter or something else to this database so there is one global one. Only with a good cover all over the world this data gets usefull. I just saw that openbmaps imports the opencellid data so there will be the cellhunter data in in future. Greetings, Sebastian (CellHunter developer) Christian Gagneraud schrieb: Hi all, I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server. I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server? I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data are still usable by OBM. Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best? Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so? Chris. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
At some stage I heard that Openbmap would save more information compared to opencellid. I don't know where's the problem but I really can't see why there has to be three databases for the same stuff - I'd guess it's just because of selfish people not willing to share and let others contribute or modify their way of working to suit the others. Too bad.. r ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
Hello. On Thu, 2009-06-04 at 20:28, Risto H. Kurppa wrote: At some stage I heard that Openbmap would save more information compared to opencellid. I don't know where's the problem but I really can't see why there has to be three databases for the same stuff - I'd guess it's just because of selfish people not willing to share and let others contribute or modify their way of working to suit the others. Too bad.. It's not that simple. Read the long threads we had about that in the past. Summarize: - opencellid was there first. Not much responses in the beginning. Got better in the end. I asked them if they are interested to extend their database to have fields for the quality of the gps signal and also logging other things like wifi APs. Tried it two times, no answer. - openbmap came later and has a smaller database. On the other hand they have the idea of logging cell informations with more informations about the quality. Quality vs quantity gives them less cells of course. The also have the idea of more then just GSM cells. - cellhunter made a great start due to the game character - cellhunter data gets feed into opencell id - openbmap imports the opencellid db From the FSO perspective we have several points that we need before we would write code in the framework using it (and of course also contributing to it): - Access to the server side source code. - We prefer quality over quantity. - We like to log wifi ap's as well. - DB available as download. After all the mails we had about that I don't think a cooperation more then what is happening atm is likely. Sad but reality. So far OpenBmap has been the most cooperative project from the FSO view. Once the last issue, access to the server side source code, is sorted out the FSO team will start to work together with them for tighter cooperation. Daniel and Jan had some thinking with Onen about this during the FSOSHRUDCON. regards Stefan Schmidt ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
Re: Cellhunter/OpenBmap
My personal preference goes out to openBmap, because I think they combine quality and quantity; quality: they log the most data (they are even working on TA) quantity: they have all the cells of cellhunter and opencellid I could be mistaken but from what i heard from onen (the creator of openBmap) on ML and irc, I got the impression that he DOES want to work together, just not only sharing data, but i could be wrong y On 6/4/09, Christian Gagneraud cgagner...@techworks.ie wrote: Hi all, I'm using cellhunter since few month, with which i have gathered some data (1646 cells so far here in Ireland) and uploaded to their server. I would like to give a try with OpenBmap, is there a way to convert data from CH to OBM and upload them to OBM server? I know that OBM log more details than CH but i guess that CH's data are still usable by OBM. Generally speaking, what people think about these two project? And of course the 2 billion euros/dollars question: Which one is the best? Does the 2 projects collaborate, if not are there any plan to do so? Chris. ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community ___ Openmoko community mailing list community@lists.openmoko.org http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/community
