Oooh, another of my favourite topics. I realized pretty early on, and
haven't seen any counter-evidence over the past decade of study: go
skill is transitive to almost all board sizes, and that is why 9x9
computer go is so important. (IMHO :-)
Call me picky if you want, but I spend a lot of time
Sylvain Gelly wrote:
You should also know that we never claimed that MoGo plays 9x9
go near the level of a professional go player, . . .
Just curious: Do 9x9 professionals exist? When we say professional
we mean 19x19 professional. Of course, there must be a correlation.
One expects an
On 4/5/07, Sylvain Gelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Sylvain, could you run the same test on 7x7 to verify that there the
'correct' komi would be 9 (try 8.5 vs 9.5)? If MoGo wouldn't converge
to 9 we probably shouldn't have much confidence in the generalisation
of the above results for
Don Dailey wrote (about big/small wins)
It actually surprises me that go players care about this ...
One difference with chess is that you don't play chess after
the game is over. The comparison could be: the king is
captured, the loser keeps playing and then the winner
gives the queen for
Many users feel stolen by UCT programs. I have read that
in the KGS chatrooms. Normal users do not count with
+/- 0.5 point precision. They have the impression the
program blundered and they caught up. But when the
program counts, surprise!, it wins by 0.5 points Chinese.
If the program
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 10:49 +0100, Jacques Basaldúa wrote:
Don Dailey wrote (about big/small wins)
It actually surprises me that go players care about this ...
One difference with chess is that you don't play chess after
the game is over. The comparison could be: the king is
captured,
Dear Go programmers,
The ICGA has concluded the negotiation for organizing the
WCCC 2007, the 12th Computer Olympiad, and an accompanying scientific workshop .
The events will take place in Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 11-18, June 2007.
The workshop will be held on Friday 15. - Sunday 16. June
On 4/5/07, Chaslot G (MICC) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The workshop will be held on Friday 15. - Sunday 16. June 2007.
Must be a leap Saturday...
regards,
-John
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In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Don
Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 10:49 +0100, Jacques Basaldúa wrote:
But when the
program counts, surprise!, it wins by 0.5 points Chinese.
The users were thinking Japanese even if they accepted
Chinese rules. In fact, they did not have
I like to think that MoGo deliberately beats such people by
half a point, so as to annoy them more :-)
this isn't uncommon in teaching games -- the idea (i think) is to
give the student opportunities to make good moves, providing them
with opportunities to learn through good play, rather than
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 09:17 -0400, Don Dailey wrote:
How does Japanese make any difference?
Because the vast majority of games use Japanese rules on KGS, I think
many players do not notice if they are playing Chinese rules. If they
then find out that dame is worth 1 point, they may feel cheated
The gap between a professional and, say, a 1-dan amateur is all to do
with tesuji knowledge, life/death knowledge, and (to a lesser extent)
tactical reading skill, accurate endgame counting and joseki knowledge.
All except joseki-knowledge is board-size independent.
There's also what you might
I like to think that MoGo deliberately beats such people by half a
point, so as to annoy them more :-)
Sylvain, I think it would be quite humorous if you could tune KGS MoGo
to do exactly that without hurting its win rate too much. Perhaps one
way would be to evaluate playouts normally near
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 10:18 -0400, Jeff Nowakowski wrote:
There is another reason for the negative reaction with regard to monte
carlo endgame play -- it is completely unhuman and unaesthetical. It
is
natural to make safer plays when ahead, but the monte carlo plays are
*so* ultra-safe as to
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Remi
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
Hi Nick,
I'd like to register CrazyStone for formal, and StoneCrazy for open.
Also, could you please confirm the date of the tournaments ? KGS still
says this week-end, but there were discussions of postponing them.
Thank you for
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 14:42 +0100, Nick Wedd wrote:
I like to think that MoGo deliberately beats such people by half a
point, so as to annoy them more :-)
I like that! I think I will program Lazarus to have to goal
of wining by EXACTLY 0.5 points! If it looks like it will
win big, it
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 11:08 -0400, Chris Fant wrote:
Sylvain, I think it would be quite humorous if you could tune KGS MoGo
to do exactly that without hurting its win rate too much. Perhaps one
way would be to evaluate playouts normally near the beginning of the
game and gradually narrow the
That would be hard because you cannot expect your opponent to
cooperate. It would be pretty much impossible to force the
opponent into a 1/2 point loss.
I'm pretty sure that anything drastic in this regard would
weaken the program.
Didn't you just say you were going to try to make Lazarus do
That would be hard because you cannot expect your opponent to
cooperate. It would be pretty much impossible to force the
opponent into a 1/2 point loss.
I'm pretty sure that anything drastic in this regard would
weaken the program.
Didn't you just say you were going to try to make
Or maybe it was 1 hour before, and then realise that it is difficult.
I also think it is quite difficult, because in the tree the opponent level
will try to be far from 0.5 and give you points to make you miss your
goal...
Ahh, true. The opponent levels would need goal=win while the self
On Thu, 2007-04-05 at 12:46 -0400, Chris Fant wrote:
Didn't you just say you were going to try to make Lazarus do the same
thing? Maybe you were just joking.
Of course I was joking, but it made me think about how it would
be done. I think it would be really difficult to do this without
Every go book says that to get better you need to see the big picture :)
The big difference between low kyu and high dan players is seeing the big
picture. Low kyu players are already pretty good at local tactics. If you
read commentaries you will see a lot of waords about direction of play,
I tried a few games against Mogo 9x9 on KGS, and it's not professional
strength, but it is very strong. When I played fast when I was tired it
beat me every time, and when I made a more careful try, I beat it, but it
wasn't easy. I'm AGA 3 Dan, KGS 2 kyu, so it seems to be about my strength
or a
Of course my comment was tongue in cheek, but I agree with you. UCT
programs are not as good at tactics as they are in understanding the
game as a whole.
I'm really not a good player, not qualified to speak about this, but
I have an impression about how they manage to beat program that are
I don't play go, so apply whatever discount seems appropriate.
Go is a zero sum game - except when humans are involved. People are clearly
dealing with a multi-criteria optimization task. Losses can be moral victories;
wins can be humiliating; style and tradition matter. Virtually every KGS
The chief difference between a 9X9 game and a 19X19 is in the demands
the larger board makes on our _strategic_ reading ability.
Agreed.
And that is not merely another board-size-dependent skill, among many.
That is the most significant difference between a competent player and a
strong
On Fri, Apr 06, 2007 at 07:52:34AM +0900, Darren Cook wrote:
The chief difference between a 9X9 game and a 19X19 is in the demands
the larger board makes on our _strategic_ reading ability.
Agreed.
And that is not merely another board-size-dependent skill, among many.
That is the most
Similarly, most kinds of endgame skill essentially vanish on a 4x4
board:
Yes, my thesis crumbles on the tiny boards: I think 9x9 is the smallest
board size where 19x19 playing strength is very significant. (Endgame
skill is important at 9x9: I've found games where a mid-dan player has
lost to
At 02:47 PM 4/5/2007, you wrote:
I don't play go, so apply whatever discount seems appropriate
But when one of the engines reaches shodan at 19x19 (not so far
away, I think) ...
probably still *very* far away. the best programs are rated at about
10-kyu. 10 stones is a *long* way. it's
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