[computer-go] My experience with Linux
?I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the?installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my?job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The?newest version?may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out.?The?Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find?such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero?I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall?it later.??I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my?internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will?go up with time. So much for the free software.?I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection.?? Not that I don't trust?other people's opinion, but?people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
You can buy CDs from places like osdisc.com for a few dollars; it's not extravagant. Not being able to burn an iso is one of the defects of Windoze; Linux/OS X/Free BSD systems include that capability at no extra charge. --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ?I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the?installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my?job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The?newest version?may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out.?The?Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find?such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero?I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall?it later.??I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my?internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will?go up with time. So much for the free software.?I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection.?? Not that I don't trust?other people's opinion, but?people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I too have had some horrible linux installation nightmares. Most of that was either from a really old linux (when it was less mature) or flaky hardware that caused intermittent problems in Windows (but severe issues for linux) I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Embedded linux? That may not be the most user friendly thing to try. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. The ISO thing is quite annoying. I've hit that too. The really sad thing is that an ISO image is a litteral bit for bit copy of a CD and should be the simplest possible thing to burn. It avoids all sorts of subtle problems with burning files. In linux, you can even mount an iso image and use it directly without a cd drive... I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. I have no idea what you're talking about here. I will say that when you get past the issue of getting a burned CD, there are some really nice distributions out there. My recent experience is with RedHat, Mandriva, and Ubuntu. So far, I like Ubunutu the best and would recommend it for new users to linux. It may be a catch 22, but under linux, it's trivial to find iso-burning software ;) ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. Of course the linux command line tools are great when you want them, but they are available on Windows through cygwin, so by developing on Windows I get the best command line tools and the best IDE. Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:55 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
Remi, you mentioned how the other algorithms predicted well and guessed that it's because the great majority of games are between experienced players whose strength is not changing much. I also feel that the existing KGS ratings work well for those players already. So how about focusing on how the various algorithms perform in the case of improving players. I think it would be interesting to simulate game results of various improving players and show how the different rating algorithms work. For example: Suppose a player's true strength is 1500 for some time, and then he suddenly improves to 2000. Both before and after he plays a fixed number of games per day (say 10). Show a graph of what each rating algorithm would think his rating is over time. Many people complain that the KGS algorithm does not move fast enough for a case like this. Also the last paragraph of section 4 talks about how the model does not account for the different ability of new players to change (improve) their ratings compared to older players. Could you vary the parameter 'w' based on the player's current rating? (Assume players with low ratings are capable of improving more quickly than strong players). I don't know enough about the math to know if this would blow up the computation time or if that's simply impossible. On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 5:37 PM, Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, This is my CG2008 paper, for statisticians: Whole-History Rating: A Bayesian Rating System for Players of Time-Varying Strength Abstract: Whole-History Rating (WHR) is a new method to estimate the time-varying strengths of players involved in paired comparisons. Like many variations of the Elo rating system, the whole-history approach is based on the dynamic Bradley-Terry model. But, instead of using incremental approximations, WHR directly computes the exact maximum a posteriori over the whole rating history of all players. This additional accuracy comes at a higher computational cost than traditional methods, but computation is still fast enough to be easily applied in real time to large-scale game servers (a new game is added in less than 0.001 second). Experiments demonstrate that, in comparison to Elo, Glicko, TrueSkill, and decayed-history algorithms, WHR produces better predictions. http://remi.coulom.free.fr/WHR/ Feedback is welcome. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
At 09:11 AM 4/9/2008, you wrote: ... Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. .. eclipse has the cdt http://www.eclipse.org/cdt/ and there are some unit testing packages. thanks Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. maybe not. i use a lot of free as in speech software, but i don't have any problem paying for a vertical app like many faces. thanks --- vice-chair http://ocjug.org/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
RE: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
--- David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. I bought a windoze version of Many Faces, and would be delighted to pay for a Linux version of MFG 12, whenever that becomes available. Having a free as in speech OS does not preclude supporting the efforts of commercial developers. I see Linux market share increasing. Microsoft recently announced that Windows XP will be supported for two more years - presumably due to widespread discontent with Vista. Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
Andy wrote: Remi, you mentioned how the other algorithms predicted well and guessed that it's because the great majority of games are between experienced players whose strength is not changing much. I also feel that the existing KGS ratings work well for those players already. So how about focusing on how the various algorithms perform in the case of improving players. I think it would be interesting to simulate game results of various improving players and show how the different rating algorithms work. For example: Suppose a player's true strength is 1500 for some time, and then he suddenly improves to 2000. Both before and after he plays a fixed number of games per day (say 10). Show a graph of what each rating algorithm would think his rating is over time. Many people complain that the KGS algorithm does not move fast enough for a case like this. I believe that the main weakness of KGS (and all decayed-history algorithms) is that rating uncertainty grows like the exponential of time. It should grow like the square root of time, which has a completely different shape. So, in the case of players who play frequently (10 games per day is a lot !) the ratings get completely stuck. On the other hand a player who stops playing for a while and comes back to the server will experience huge rating jumps. The WHR algorithm can handle this correctly, but the KGS algorithm cannot, whatever parameter is used. Your suggestion to illustrate the difference on artificial scenarios is good. In fact, you are not the first one to make it. I will probably use artificial scenarios in my presentation at the conference. Also the last paragraph of section 4 talks about how the model does not account for the different ability of new players to change (improve) their ratings compared to older players. Could you vary the parameter 'w' based on the player's current rating? (Assume players with low ratings are capable of improving more quickly than strong players). I don't know enough about the math to know if this would blow up the computation time or if that's simply impossible. Yes, it is my next direction for improving the system. In this paper, I focused on trying to compare different approaches: incremental, decayed history, whr, etc. In order to be fair, I used the same simple but wrong model for every algorithm. Now, I am convinced that WHR is significantly better than alternative approaches, and the next step is to improve the model. Your idea is good, and it would not blow up the computation time. I have already started to work in this direction. I split the game database by sorting the games based on average player strength into different levels, and tune optimal parameters for each level. Not surprisingly, I found that the optimal w² is higher for weaker players than for the stronger players. I still have to find a nice way to handle the fact that with a variable w², ratings don't have a relative value anymore, but an absolute value. It is then important to avoid drift, and some other subtle problems. Thanks for your comments, Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 1:57 PM, terry mcintyre [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- David Fotland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. I bought a windoze version of Many Faces, and would be delighted to pay for a Linux version of MFG 12, whenever that becomes available. Having a free as in speech OS does not preclude supporting the efforts of commercial developers. I see Linux market share increasing. Microsoft recently announced that Windows XP will be supported for two more years - presumably due to widespread discontent with Vista. If my primary OS was Linux or BSD of some kind, I would not hesitate to pay for programs if they do something I need. There's just one caveat to this, and that is the relative brittleness of version compatibility. My greatest fear is to be locked into a situation like this. This is the current officially supported list of operating systems for Softimage XSI on Linux, a 3d graphics program I use on Windows. Red Hat Enterprise Linux version 4, kernel 2.6.9. Fedora Project Core 3, kernel 2.6.9-1.667smp. Novell SUSE LINUX 9.3. Default GNOME window manager or KDE. You should also be able to run XSI on other Linux distributions provided that you adhere to the following guidelines: Kernel: 2.4.18-3 – 2.6.11 XFree86, XFree86-libs: 4.2.0, 4.3.0 Three distributions officially supported, out of a multitude. All three being somewhat (understatement?) out of date by now. Limitations on the kernel versions. Etc, etc. This, rather than being non-opensource, is why I'd rather use open source on Linux or BSD, so I can recompile programs for my particular installation, rather than hoping the developer will support it explicitly, as well as keeping up with the relatively rapid changes to the kernel and runtime libraries and any other system part the program happen to rely upon. Lars Nilsson ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my?internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will?go up with time. So much for the free software.?I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection.?? One word for you: Ubuntu.http://help.ubuntu.com Not that I don't trust?other people's opinion, but?people pitched other things before which we never hear again. Your problems with Linux may not be rare, but they are kind of atypical. You seem to be in too much of a hurry or something. GNUnix really is free, and it really is good. - -- grok. - -- *** FULL-SPECTRUM FIGHTBACK! *** * In advance of the Revolution: * Get facts get organized * * Fight the Man! * thru these sites movements * * http://badcopnodonut.fm BAD COP, NO DONUT! * * http://www.warprofiteers.com CorpWatch: War Profiteers * * http://www.thedossier.ukonline.co.uk The DOSSIER: War on Terror * * http://debtslavery.org DebtSlavery.org * * http://www.sweetjesusihatebilloreilly.comBill O'Reilly Watch * * http://www.education-action.net Canadian Fed of Students Québec * * http://mpp.org Marijuana Policy Project * ** NEW-WORLD-ORDER-SPEAK: Structural Adjustment == LoanSharking ** GPG fingerprint = 2E7F 2D69 4B0B C8D5 07E3 09C3 5E8D C4B4 461B B771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFH/Q/ZXo3EtEYbt3ERAuUqAJoCHQtfOruuWT+ERKlrIR/UUp5blACg45iJ /yyEcq9/iHvpTuLc69yua7A= =HO72 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
All I can say is that if even burning an ISO CD from windows frustrates you, you are probably not going to like Linux. Having said that, it's a bit ironic that burning an ISO image is easy in Linux but that you have to scour the web to find a way to do it in Windows.It's no surprise that the only way you were able to find to do it cost money (although you worked around it by using a demo version.) This is extremely typical of the difference between these two OS's. You can even mount a CD image, and make it look like part of your file system. For any given random task that you might need to perform you are far more likely to already have the right tool or combination of tools in almost any Linux distribution. And even if you don't you are far more likely to be able to build it quickly in Unix. Linux comes bundled with I don't know how many program languages. Most distributions have a C and C++ compiler ready to go, along with a ton of other languages, such as perl, python, ruby and others that are usually just installed by default.Most of the best free tools for Windows have migrated from Unix and usually are not quite as polished since they were obviously designed for Unix. Cygwin is one outstanding example. I have to say this too: if you compare a lot of little things, none of which may seem very important, you get this sense that Windows made a lot of decisions that were not really quite right.Those decisions were made in the good old days and may have been good decisions back then. However, for whatever reason, Unix also made a lot of decisions a very long time ago that are still appropriate. For example file systems.Each device in windows must have a drive letter encoded, such as c: or d: and then the path.With unix, you don't think in terms of physical drives, that is abstracted away. I can mount a windows drive and put it anywhere I want and it just looks like a directory somewhere. Unix has a single directory tree and you don't need to know or care about physical devices, how many there are, etc. I think this was a huge error with Windows. Another example is the extra character in text files to distinguish lines. Not a big deal, but a minor nuisance, a minor inefficiency. Probably the very biggest show-stopper for me has always been the short-sighted windows conceptual model that a physical computer is owned by only 1 person.This of course made the OS very simple in the old days and was easy, but again this is a legacy thing that causes windows to suffer forever. And over time, windows has gradually tried to fix this, but even Vista hasn't addressed this. Unix was ahead of Vista decades ago in this area. The perfect example of this is that when I asked for a computer to host CGOS on, Dave Dyer was generous enough to let me use his.All he had to do was give me an account and password.I cannot even imagine asking to borrow someones Windows computer on the other side of the world to do some experiments or run some tests.I know it's possible with special software, but it's a hack, not integrated into the Operating Systems way of doing things.To even think of doing it you have to do a lot of communicating with the guy on the other end, agree on what software to use, how it should be set up, etc.Therefore, every unix computer is easily turned into a mail server, web server, ftp server, etc. It's an awkward add-on for a windows computer to allow someone to get files from you (although I do think windows got it right with SMB.) But in general networking with other computers (or users) is a nightmare with windows and was tacked onto the operating system, not integrated as part of it like Unix is. - Don [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ?I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the?installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my?job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The?newest version?may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out.?The?Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find?such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero?I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall?it later.??I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my?internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will?go up with time. So much for the
[computer-go] Solver Developer for Facebook Go
Hi everyone! This is another call for Go enthusiasts to help us developing a usable solver for our Facebook Go project. We developed a working game controller so far that allows Facebook friends to play a Go match with each other. The only missing thing for the first release is a working solver to result the final score. We code Java, but if you are not familiar with programming languages, we'd also welcome anyone who can give us support understanding the Go rules in particular and/or ideas how to detect dead and alive strings and everything related. If anyone is interested, please feel free to contact me! Cheers, Andre ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
David Fotland wrote: Does Linux have a decent development environment yet? After using Visual studio, it would be a horrible loss of productivity to go back to vi/make/gdb. Of course the linux command line tools are great when you want them, but they are available on Windows through cygwin, so by developing on Windows I get the best command line tools and the best IDE. Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. That's not true. Over the years I have payed for Linux software. Not very long ago I bought a chess program for Linux even though a perhaps slightly stronger open source program was available. They made versions available for Linux and windows (I'm not sure about Mac's.) If you actually believe that DOS users are willing to pay and Linux users are not, I think you under a misconception. Years ago I marketed a very strong chess program (for the time) and discovered that almost every chess enthusiast had a copy, but the number I actually sold was pathetic. And I personally know Windows users that routinely rip off software. I know this is subjective, but if I had to guess I would guess that the level of maturity and integrity of Linux users is higher (on average) than Windows users.At least I have that 1 data point, myself :-) But I have known many Linux and Windows people and my strong impression is that many Windows users don't seem to feel guilty about anything they do, and that Linux users have made their choice at least partly due to a certain amount of personal integrity.Having said that, I don't mean to imply that all Windows users are cheats, I know many of fine character and integrity too. I don't have any issue whatsoever with making money by selling software either. I'm not one of those guys that think this is somehow immoral. I don't believe most Linux users think this either. - Don David From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jim O'Flaherty, Jr. Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2008 8:55 AM To: computer-go Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux I'll second both the original poster (his troubles with Linux mirrored mine) and the reply (I was completely enthralled with Ubuntu...WOW!). Jim - Original Message From: Álvaro Begué [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: computer-go computer-go@computer-go.org Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2008 10:18:11 AM Subject: Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux Get ubuntu (http://www.ubuntu.com/). You can ask them to send you a free CD. And you should consider getting a decent Internet connection. Álvaro. On Wed, Apr 9, 2008 at 10:54 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I got excited about the free software sometime ago and bought a copy of Susie Linux. But the installation always hang up at some point and can never complete. I had to kiss my $20 goodbye and so much for the Linux. Recently my job involves embedded Linux. For whatever reason we used the Fedora version 4. It looks like the Windows 3.1. The newest version may be more modernized, which I don't have tme to fnd out. The Linux operatng system is about 600 Mbyte compressed. Since we have a fast internet, it took only 40 min. to download. After downloading we needed to find a software that can write ISO format on CDs. I failed to find such a software on the internet and ended up use the trial version of Nero. Then the Nero I installed highjacked my CD drive and I had to unnstall it later. I also tried the 64-bit version of Linux and the installation never worked. I begin to consder install Linux on my PC at home. With my internet connection speed, downloading 600 MB is just unrealistic. The other option is to order CD's. They cost $45 and up and I'm sure this cost will go up with time. So much for the free software. I keeps asking myself what will happen if the installation fails. I only have one computer and one internet connection. Not that I don't trust other people's opinion, but people pitched other things before which we never hear again. DL Get the MapQuest Toolbar, Maps, Traffic, Directions More! ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
Hi Rémi, For a while I have considered overhauling the rating system for CGOS. My system is ad-hoc and based on gradually increasing K factor based on your opponents K in the standard ELO formula. I don't know if your idea here is feasible for a computer server, because presumably the players are fixed in strength, but in practice I think some bots change. Anyway, I'm no expert on this but want to find something better than what I'm doing and I have considered using some kind of whole history approach (such as running bayeselo after every round on every game, which of course is not very scalable :-) - Don Rémi Coulom wrote: Hi, This is my CG2008 paper, for statisticians: Whole-History Rating: A Bayesian Rating System for Players of Time-Varying Strength Abstract: Whole-History Rating (WHR) is a new method to estimate the time-varying strengths of players involved in paired comparisons. Like many variations of the Elo rating system, the whole-history approach is based on the dynamic Bradley-Terry model. But, instead of using incremental approximations, WHR directly computes the exact maximum a posteriori over the whole rating history of all players. This additional accuracy comes at a higher computational cost than traditional methods, but computation is still fast enough to be easily applied in real time to large-scale game servers (a new game is added in less than 0.001 second). Experiments demonstrate that, in comparison to Elo, Glicko, TrueSkill, and decayed-history algorithms, WHR produces better predictions. http://remi.coulom.free.fr/WHR/ Feedback is welcome. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Andy wrote: For example: Suppose a player's true strength is 1500 for some time, and then he suddenly improves to 2000. Both before and after he plays a fixed number of games per day (say 10). Show a graph of what each rating algorithm would think his rating is over time. Many people complain that the KGS algorithm does not move fast enough for a case like this. I think that's a bad example since no player suddenly improves by 500 ELO points. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
How does 500 elo points compare to kyu ranks? Beginning players do improve by 4-5 ranks in a short period of time. We don't all start as dan-level players, alas! --- Christoph Birk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Andy wrote: For example: Suppose a player's true strength is 1500 for some time, and then he suddenly improves to 2000. Both before and after he plays a fixed number of games per day (say 10). Show a graph of what each rating algorithm would think his rating is over time. Many people complain that the KGS algorithm does not move fast enough for a case like this. I think that's a bad example since no player suddenly improves by 500 ELO points. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
Don Dailey wrote: Hi Rémi, For a while I have considered overhauling the rating system for CGOS. My system is ad-hoc and based on gradually increasing K factor based on your opponents K in the standard ELO formula. I don't know if your idea here is feasible for a computer server, because presumably the players are fixed in strength, but in practice I think some bots change. Anyway, I'm no expert on this but want to find something better than what I'm doing and I have considered using some kind of whole history approach (such as running bayeselo after every round on every game, which of course is not very scalable :-) - Don Hi Don, Maybe you could consider implementing Glicko. Glicko is described there: http://math.bu.edu/people/mg/glicko/glicko.doc/glicko.html It should be better than any intuitive hand-made formula you could come up with. Bayeselo would probably produce better ratings than Glicko. Running Bayeselo from scratch after every round may be too costly. But it is possible to make very efficient incremental updates: adding a few games, and running a couple of iterations of MM should be extremely fast. This would require keeping bayeselo in memory all the time, with current game results. Since it cannot be done with the current program you'd have to use my C++ code and somehow incorporate it into the server software. This would be complicated, and may use a significant amount of memory on the server. But computation time would be very short (less than 0.001 second). The algorithm I describe in my paper may be overkill for rating programs. If you look at table 1, you'll see that even when rating humans, Bayeselo outperforms Glicko. Since most programs on CGOS are constant, I believe that Bayeselo would be very difficult to beat. Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, terry mcintyre wrote: How does 500 elo points compare to kyu ranks? Beginning players do improve by 4-5 ranks in a short period of time. We don't all start as dan-level players, alas! Yes, but short time will still be many games. Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
On Apr 9, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Rémi Coulom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since most programs on CGOS are constant, I believe that Bayeselo would be very difficult to beat. That's partly a side effect of the current rating system... Rémi ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
Christoph Birk wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, terry mcintyre wrote: Beginning players do improve by 4-5 ranks in a short period of time. We don't all start as dan-level players, alas! Yes, but short time will still be many games. It might be that most of those games aren't visible to the rating system. -M- ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Matthew Woodcraft wrote: Beginning players do improve by 4-5 ranks in a short period of time. We don't all start as dan-level players, alas! Yes, but short time will still be many games. It might be that most of those games aren't visible to the rating system. That might explain why a rating system may have a hard time to follow. Bad data in ... bad data out :-) Christoph ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
On Wed, Apr 09, 2008 at 03:40:28PM -0700, Christoph Birk wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, Matthew Woodcraft wrote: It might be that most of those games aren't visible to the rating system. That might explain why a rating system may have a hard time to follow. Bad data in ... bad data out :-) But the point is that bad data is what you have in the real life. :-) Petr Pasky Baudis ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] CG'2008 paper: Whole-History Ratings
--- Matthew Woodcraft [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christoph Birk wrote: On Wed, 9 Apr 2008, terry mcintyre wrote: Beginning players do improve by 4-5 ranks in a short period of time. We don't all start as dan-level players, alas! Yes, but short time will still be many games. It might be that most of those games aren't visible to the rating system. Indeed -- I can offer my case as an example; in a few months, a 3-stone improvement. Only a small fraction of my games were played on KGS; the rest were face-to-face. Terry McIntyre lt;[EMAIL PROTECTED]gt; Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in the nursery. Benjamin Disraeli, Speech in the House of Commons [June 15, 1874] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] now: operating systems and love
Linux is a time sinkhole to someone not familiar with it.You are probably almost unaware of the huge investment in time you spent learning windows because the lessons happened gradually over many years and you don't give it a second thought. You just know it and forgot that you had to learn it. Funny someone should bring this up. I was a Windows guy for all but the last 5 years or so. I've switched to Linux, gradually at first, then one day when Windows pissed me, I said enough is enough! Sure I had a few things that stopped working (like my old trusted SCSI film scanner) but after a few years, even those started working in Linux. Yet what recently surprised me was that I was given a Windows machine and asked to do something that I used to have no problem: program in Visual Studio. I had no idea how difficult it would turn out to be. It seemed that nothing fits, nor was it where I would expect it to be. Like having 2 left hands and bumbling between them. Little by little, things started coming back to me. In about 2 hours I started to find my way around. Given a few days, I'd probably remember most. What I'm trying to say is that if you take that gradual learning path on Linux, then Windows seems a time sink-hole that no-one in their right mind would want to wither their days with. Oh, by the way, I feel that way with Mac user interface. I can't find my way around there if my life depended on it! So, while I do think Linux is the best :), I guess in the end it comes down to which OS you know better yourself. A. ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
Re: [computer-go] My experience with Linux
2008/4/9, Don Dailey [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Since I sell software, building Linux apps is out of the question, since Linux users will insist that I give them my work for free. I don't have any issue whatsoever with making money by selling software either. I'm not one of those guys that think this is somehow immoral. I don't believe most Linux users think this either. Some of linux people think so but then again those individuals will not even steal your product as they use only free software and very strict on what licenses mean. But SW market on Linux is pretty - other than professionalk SW likeHW simulators etc.- small so I guess making only for windows if better option . Unless you develop on something likee QT which is fairly portable. -- Petri Pitkänen e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
