Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
On the other hand, if W7 is working as well as you say, it strengthens the suspicion that W7 is just Vista warmed over. Um, even MS has said that Win7 isn't anything but a vastly improved Vista. That's kinda, sorta, ya know, why it looks like it. We still patch, patch, patch. By this standard, OS X is the one of the most insecure OSes available. Over the past year, not only has Apple been slower to patch OS X than MS has been with Windows, there have been significantly more known vulnerabilities. Note the word known. The black hat commnunity isn't shy about slamming MS. Do go on and on Thomas. This Olberman-level of vein-pulsing attack dog-ness fun to watch. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
The best we can hope for is that MS is lying. If this is the way MS intends to build its operating systems then W7 will be even crappier and more dangerous than their previous atrocities. This idea is even a bigger mistake than their everything-is-connected-to-everything stupidity that makes their OS such a playground for virus writers. Denying the old saying that The whole is more than the sum of its parts will produce an OS that demos well but falls apart in real use. The inconsistencies among its various parts, that should have been ironed out early, will be even more maddening. There will be even more redundancies as developers of isolated parts will have little idea about what others are doing. There will be serious gaps in functionality for the same reason. There will be really interesting and hard to diagnose interactions among parts because the not tested together at an early stage -- things like race conditions that don't show up when parts are run in isolation. People are going to look back on Vista and call it the good old days. Windows 7 is a radical departure in the way MS builds it's OS. Instead of each feature being worked on and added in at various times and various stages of 'beta', these groups aren't allowed to include their code in 7 until it is ready to ship. if you'd been keeping up with the news about 7, you'd know that developers and earlier reviewers have all said that 7 does not feel beta, but highly stable and usable..all features in the release are ready, not a work in progress. If it still is needing work, the feature is not included. Perhaps MS learned from last time not to promise the whole enchilada and deliver only a appetizer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
So they are terrible for having everything tied together and horrible for having everything component-ized? Spoken like a true glitterati. You seem to be alone in your view since almost every review of W7 shows it was extremely well received. Course they've actually used W7 so they aren't basing their opinions on feelings. I suppose Apple is just crappy too since this is the model for os x? Mike On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 12:24 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The best we can hope for is that MS is lying. If this is the way MS intends to build its operating systems then W7 will be even crappier and more dangerous than their previous atrocities. This idea is even a bigger mistake than their everything-is-connected-to-everything stupidity that makes their OS such a playground for virus writers. Denying the old saying that The whole is more than the sum of its parts will produce an OS that demos well but falls apart in real use. The inconsistencies among its various parts, that should have been ironed out early, will be even more maddening. There will be even more redundancies as developers of isolated parts will have little idea about what others are doing. There will be serious gaps in functionality for the same reason. There will be really interesting and hard to diagnose interactions among parts because the not tested together at an early stage -- things like race conditions that don't show up when parts are run in isolation. People are going to look back on Vista and call it the good old days. Windows 7 is a radical departure in the way MS builds it's OS. Instead of each feature being worked on and added in at various times and various stages of 'beta', these groups aren't allowed to include their code in 7 until it is ready to ship. if you'd been keeping up with the news about 7, you'd know that developers and earlier reviewers have all said that 7 does not feel beta, but highly stable and usable..all features in the release are ready, not a work in progress. If it still is needing work, the feature is not included. Perhaps MS learned from last time not to promise the whole enchilada and deliver only a appetizer. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Chris I am intrigued that you are running it. How does it compare to XP? I am one of those who did not upgrade to Vista but am still running XP on all my machines except my sons laptop which came with Vista. Stewart At 02:44 PM 11/4/2008, you wrote: Apparently you are ignoring my several statements that I have Win7 on my primary machine and am using it for all my daily work with zero problems. Or perhaps that fact was rejected because it conflicts with your worldview. It's actually fun watching you try to slam an OS that you've clearly never seen. Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Having everything tied to everything and building components in isolation are not related or complementary problems (except that they are both bad ideas and probably even worse in combination). For you to misconstrue what I wrote to imply that they are related is disingenuous. You are trying to mislead readers who may not have the background in software engineering to evaluate this on their own. You are just spindoctoring the MS party line. Reviews of W7 from WFBs count for nothing. WFBs and various paid shills always tell us of the wonderfulness of every piece of crap that issues from MS. Not a reliable source. Remember how we were told by WFBs and VPSs that Vista would be extremely secure? Then when Vista shipped we found Vista-specific malware already waiting for it. Vista was not found to be any more secure than XP. We still patch, patch, patch. Last month we even had an emergy patch for RPC attacks. We won't really know about the quality of W7 for several months after it ships. Your assertion that MS's adoption of bad software engineering practices is going to make W7 somehow better is pure nonesense. Your assertion that your early test version of W7 is just peachy is nonesense too. If MS really added many new features it would not be working as well as you say at this early stage. On the other hand, if W7 is working as well as you say, it strengthens the suspicion that W7 is just Vista warmed over. So they are terrible for having everything tied together and horrible for having everything component-ized? Spoken like a true glitterati. You seem to be alone in your view since almost every review of W7 shows it was extremely well received. Course they've actually used W7 so they aren't basing their opinions on feelings. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Vista was not found to be any more secure than XP. This is just flat-out wrong, as is most of the rest of your message, which appears to be remarkably ill-informed. As if everyone didn't already know that Vista is more secure than XP, I received an InfoWorld article just this morning with the following headline: Data shows Vista more secure than XP * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
So you are saying OS X is built on a horrible idea? Change the subject. I'm not going to follow as you spin, spin, spin. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Data shows Vista more secure than XP The FULL title of the story is Microsoft Data shows Vista more secure than XP. The article is completely unclear about what data supports MS's assertion. Numbers are cited, but nothing about how the data was collected. Only the most besotted WFB would find anything of note here. This is just more PR spin from MS. I recall that Microsoft data also showed the Zune outselling the iPod. At least on that one the methodology was spelled out so we could figure out that it was BS. Now they won't even state the methodology. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
In short, the stuff that's shown -will- be in Win7. Sorry. There is a river crossing on the east side of Manhattan availabe for purchase. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Tom's been left standing in the middle of his living room with his prom dress on and his dates not showing to believe anything has changed. On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In short, the stuff that's shown -will- be in Win7. Sorry. There is a river crossing on the east side of Manhattan availabe for purchase. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
mike wrote: Windows 7 is a radical departure in the way MS builds it's OS. Instead of each feature being worked on and added in at various times and various stages of 'beta', these groups aren't allowed to include their code in 7 until it is ready to ship. If Microsoft puts features in just as they ship, it won't be surprising that they won't work well. I don't think that's what they do. Whoops! I let the 5th grader in me out for a second there. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
If Microsoft puts features in just as they ship, it won't be surprising that they won't work well. I don't think that's what they do. Right, I think that's Mike's point--that is NOT what they're doing. MS insists that Win7 is already feature-complete, and that the rest of the time will be spent on tuning and bug fixing. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 5:13 PM, Jordan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: mike wrote: Windows 7 is a radical departure in the way MS builds it's OS. Instead of each feature being worked on and added in at various times and various stages of 'beta', these groups aren't allowed to include their code in 7 until it is ready to ship. If Microsoft puts features in just as they ship, it won't be surprising that they won't work well. I don't think that's what they do. Whoops! I let the 5th grader in me out for a second there. They aren't even including things in the beta release until M$ believes that they are ready to ship. I do question if the testing they will get in house will be as effective as a large number of outside testers. There will be beta tests of components but not of the really half done things that have been released to bets before. Given that Win7 will probably do a call in for patches and updates as part of the installation process It would not be that difficult to add things that aren't on the disc. -- John Duncan Yoyo ---o) * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
If W7 is now feature complete and MS has not yet figured out why Vista is so crappy then why are they also telling us that W7 is not Vista warmed over? They are either not keeping their lies straight or they completely tossed Vista and are building W7 on top of XP. Which is it? Right, I think that's Mike's point--that is NOT what they're doing. MS insists that Win7 is already feature-complete, and that the rest of the time will be spent on tuning and bug fixing. If Microsoft puts features in just as they ship, it won't be surprising that they won't work well. I don't think that's what they do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
You are exactly right. This radical departure is just claptrap from MS's PR department. Nothing to do with engineering. The WFBs just lap it up and tell us how great the next Windows version will be. They also tell us of the greatness of Vista -- except that it has been so much misunderstood. It won't be until just prior to W7 shipping that MS and the WFBs will start spreading the word that Vista is crap and you should start lining up for W7. W7 will then be the one that is really good. It will have special sauce. Yes, we see this same cycle every time. Remember when they told us that Win ME was the really, really good one? If Microsoft puts features in just as they ship, it won't be surprising that they won't work well. I don't think that's what they do. Windows 7 is a radical departure in the way MS builds it's OS. Instead of each feature being worked on and added in at various times and various stages of 'beta', these groups aren't allowed to include their code in 7 until it is ready to ship. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
I do question if the testing they will get in house will be as effective as a large number of outside testers. There will be beta tests of components but not of the really half done things that have been released to bets before. But nothing is half done. The stuff that wasn't delivered to the developers last week is done, it just wasn't in the build that we got. Everything was demoed and is operational already. I'd characterize what they're doing now as tweaking rather than coding. So, it appears that there will be plenty of time for the very large number of beta users to work on everything. Win7's development cycle is very, very different from Vista's. As anecdotal evidence of this, I am now using Win7 as my primary OS. I could *never* have done that with the first version of Vista that we got. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Except Vista isn't crappy. I've been running 64bit SP 1 since it was released and had zero issues. Many changes in hardware and too many apps to name have gone through this machine. Vista was a problem when it first came out, you speak about it as though SP 1 never came out. What are your problems with it? Mike On Sun, Nov 2, 2008 at 4:09 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If W7 is now feature complete and MS has not yet figured out why Vista is so crappy then why are they also telling us that W7 is not Vista warmed over? They are either not keeping their lies straight or they completely tossed Vista and are building W7 on top of XP. Which is it? Right, I think that's Mike's point--that is NOT what they're doing. MS insists that Win7 is already feature-complete, and that the rest of the time will be spent on tuning and bug fixing. If Microsoft puts features in just as they ship, it won't be surprising that they won't work well. I don't think that's what they do. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Here's a decent walkthrough of some of the new Win7 stuff: Since half of the features will never make it to the shipping version is there really any point in reading their propaganda? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Windows 7 is a radical departure in the way MS builds it's OS. Instead of each feature being worked on and added in at various times and various stages of 'beta', these groups aren't allowed to include their code in 7 until it is ready to ship. if you'd been keeping up with the news about 7, you'd know that developers and earlier reviewers have all said that 7 does not feel beta, but highly stable and usable..all features in the release are ready, not a work in progress. If it still is needing work, the feature is not included. Perhaps MS learned from last time not to promise the whole enchilada and deliver only a appetizer. Mike On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 12:36 PM, Tom Piwowar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here's a decent walkthrough of some of the new Win7 stuff: Since half of the features will never make it to the shipping version is there really any point in reading their propaganda? * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
Here's a decent walkthrough of some of the new Win7 stuff: Since half of the features will never make it to the shipping version is there really any point in reading their propaganda? Oh, give it a rest. I'm wondering if you bothered to go to the site because, if you had, you would have seen that: a) It's not their propaganda, it's Gizmodo; and b) It's mostly screenshots of things that are -already- in the build that was delivered to developers at PDC. A smaller section talks about a few things that were demoed and working, but won't be available to developers until the next developer build. What you can't see from the walkthrough is that MS has already frozen the API and spent a week delivering detailed information to the developers on how to use the new stuff. In short, the stuff that's shown -will- be in Win7. Sorry. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
What I was looking forward to is WinFS, or _some_ sort of tagging file system. But it looks like they're still not ready to attempt that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] Win7 walk-through
I was wanting of this feature also...the libraries are closer to it then anything at this point. http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2008/10/31/arspdc-windows-7-libraries-under-the-microscope On Sat, Nov 1, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Tony B [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What I was looking forward to is WinFS, or _some_ sort of tagging file system. But it looks like they're still not ready to attempt that. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * -- Make sure you support your local CarbonONset programs! * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
