Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/30/droid-x-ad-pokes-fun-at-iphone-4-antenna-troubles/ Now Moto is going after Apple... *It comes with a double antenna design. The kind that allows you to hold the phone any way you like and use it just about anywhere to make crystal clear calls.* On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:45 PM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:18 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Saw the first of waht will probably be many iphone 4 case ads with the tagline 'get better reception, buy an iphone 4 case!' This new iPhone will most likely be the first and last phone made by Apple that uses an antenna of which parts are on the outside of the device and located where they can easily come into direct contact with the hand of the user. I would not be at all surprised to see Apple alter this design in future production runs of this phone. They would be foolish not to do so in my opinion. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * *** ** THIS LIST HAS MOVED TO YAHOO** ** PLEASE JOIN THE DISCUSSION THERE ** ** Info at http://www.cguys.org/ ** ***
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Wed, Jun 30, 2010 at 6:54 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: *It comes with a double antenna design. The kind that allows you to hold the phone any way you like and use it just about anywhere to make crystal clear calls.* Crystal clear calls? I have not as yet heard a crystal clear call on any digital cell phone. It is not just a function of the receiving phone that establishes clear communications. To me, crystal clear means what you would achieve in a recording studio using perhaps a Sennheiser or Neumann microphone and reproduced through a decent audio system without any hash or other irritating background noises or pulses. Analog phones can exhibit far better audio quality, much closer to crystal clear than do digital phones. Crystal clear has somehow taken on a whole new meaning in the cell phone world. Steve *** ** THIS LIST HAS MOVED TO YAHOO** ** PLEASE JOIN THE DISCUSSION THERE ** ** Info at http://www.cguys.org/ ** ***
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Because it doesn't matter in normal use. It appears that it may matter in some extreme cases. You are insisting that they must design their product for the extreme case and make the rest of us suffer the consequences. You have not explained why they must do such a silly thing. You just insist that they must. Sent from my iPad On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:41 AM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com wrote: However, you simply refuse to say that Apple could have done better in this instance, thus I am left to puzzle over why you take such an intransigent position on something that is so obvious. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 2:17 AM, TJPA t...@tjpa.com wrote: Because it doesn't matter in normal use. It appears that it may matter in some extreme cases. You are insisting that they must design their product for the extreme case and make the rest of us suffer the consequences. You have not explained why they must do such a silly thing. You just insist that they must. By extreme cases are you perhaps referring to emergency situations where life or death or serious injury or even just a great inconvenience may be the outcome? Is this not what many users of cell phones obtain them for? Being able to function as well as is possible in such a scenario would seem to be a no-brainer to me, and not something to be scoffed at simply because it is not the norm. I have not insisted anything since the inception of any aspect of this discussion. Now, that being said, and you may peruse previous posts if you want to try to prove me wrong on the above, what would cause the rest of us to suffer had Apple provided some shielding for that antenna, and I am not talking about a $30 add-on accessory? It seems to me as though every user of this new phone would be better off if for no other reason than being able to hold or handle the phone in any manner they choose or need to employ for whatever reason and under whatever circumstance might arise. I think that even Apple understands this, and is why they are said to be working on a fix for a problem that you say really does not exist or does not matter if it does exist. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Jun 29, 2010, at 8:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: By extreme cases are you perhaps referring to emergency situations where life or death or serious injury or even just a great inconvenience may be the outcome? Yep, your mommy can't be with you all the time. On Jun 29, 2010, at 8:10 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: It seems to me as though every user of this new phone would be better off if for no other reason than being able to hold or handle the phone in any manner they choose or need to employ for whatever reason and under whatever circumstance might arise. Well you have a silly notion. It is amazing how you fixate on a tiny 1/8-inch of its surface that causes a problem when the phone is operated at the edge of its range. Your supposition is so extreme that it strongly suggests you have a hidden agenda. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
With ATT those extreme cases seem to matter much more than with another carrier. Stewart At 01:17 AM 6/29/2010, you wrote: Because it doesn't matter in normal use. It appears that it may matter in some extreme cases. You are insisting that they must design their product for the extreme case and make the rest of us suffer the consequences. You have not explained why they must do such a silly thing. You just insist that they must. Sent from my iPad On Jun 29, 2010, at 1:41 AM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.com wrote: However, you simply refuse to say that Apple could have done better in this instance, thus I am left to puzzle over why you take such an intransigent position on something that is so obvious. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * Rev. Stewart A. Marshall mailto:popoz...@earthlink.net Prince of Peace www.princeofpeaceozark.org Ozark, AL SL 82 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 9:11 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: Well you have a silly notion. It is amazing how you fixate on a tiny 1/8-inch of its surface that causes a problem when the phone is operated at the edge of its range. Your supposition is so extreme that it strongly suggests you have a hidden agenda. Apple could have easily eliminated that 1/8 inch of problematic area by applying an insulating material over it. Why put out even a somewhat flawed product when it could be avoided so easily through various options? Perhaps Apple was unaware of this at the time of manufacture, and I would not seriously fault them if that were the case. If so, then they should be offering those coverings, or something similar, gratis to folks who are experiencing this problem as opposed to trying to wrangle every possible dollar out of the pockets of their customers and losing good will at the same time. That is my fundamental point in all of this. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
I suggest duct tape. Duct tape cures all ills. On Jun 29, 2010, at 9:45 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Apple could have easily eliminated that 1/8 inch of problematic area by applying an insulating material over it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Saw the first of waht will probably be many iphone 4 case ads with the tagline 'get better reception, buy an iphone 4 case!' On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 7:40 AM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: I suggest duct tape. Duct tape cures all ills. On Jun 29, 2010, at 9:45 AM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Apple could have easily eliminated that 1/8 inch of problematic area by applying an insulating material over it. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 5:18 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Saw the first of waht will probably be many iphone 4 case ads with the tagline 'get better reception, buy an iphone 4 case!' This new iPhone will most likely be the first and last phone made by Apple that uses an antenna of which parts are on the outside of the device and located where they can easily come into direct contact with the hand of the user. I would not be at all surprised to see Apple alter this design in future production runs of this phone. They would be foolish not to do so in my opinion. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Good analysis and later confirmed by one of the commentators. It is also interesting to note how many of the other commentators just won't let go of the original story. On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:26 PM, John DeCarlo wrote: From Steve Gibson (and his recommendation of a reply to read): The iPhone 4 Antenna Controversy: Given all the evidence, here's my theory in my most recent blog post: http://wp.me/pV3mA-22 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:07 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: Good analysis and later confirmed by one of the commentators. It is also interesting to note how many of the other commentators just won't let go of the original story. So, what is the original story? I only saw stories about how the antenna design of a stock iPhone 4 is flawed in terms of functionality, meaning that the normal usage of the phone could easily result in signal degradation. Seems to be the same summation in the article you reference. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Also troublesome was that Apple admitted the problem... Spin that, Tom. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:07 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: Good analysis and later confirmed by one of the commentators. It is also interesting to note how many of the other commentators just won't let go of the original story. On Jun 28, 2010, at 1:26 PM, John DeCarlo wrote: From Steve Gibson (and his recommendation of a reply to read): The iPhone 4 Antenna Controversy: Given all the evidence, here's my theory in my most recent blog post: http://wp.me/pV3mA-22 * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:26 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Also troublesome was that Apple admitted the problem... Did Apple admit to a problem? What was the problem that Apple Corp. admitted to? I only know of Mr, Jobs mentioning the problem of purchasers of the device not knowing how to hold it in a manner that would prevent signal loss although there was nothing in the user manual about that. So, even that fairly important oversight in the manual was evidently not a fault on the part of Apple either as no apology in any form has been forthcoming of which I am aware. Therefore, I am at a loss as to what Apple actually admitted to other than not having enough phones to sell. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Gripping any mobile phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna performance, with certain places being worse than others depending on the placement of the antennas. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone. If you ever experience this on your iPhone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band, or simply use one of many available cases. Sure it's great spin, but they admit that holding the phone in the way 90% of users do will result in signal loss. Like my phone, if I hold it upside down and backwards, sideways to my ear so it's unusable, I tend to lose a little signal. Holding it like a phone however, I've had no signal loss. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 1:56 PM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 4:26 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Also troublesome was that Apple admitted the problem... Did Apple admit to a problem? What was the problem that Apple Corp. admitted to? I only know of Mr, Jobs mentioning the problem of purchasers of the device not knowing how to hold it in a manner that would prevent signal loss although there was nothing in the user manual about that. So, even that fairly important oversight in the manual was evidently not a fault on the part of Apple either as no apology in any form has been forthcoming of which I am aware. Therefore, I am at a loss as to what Apple actually admitted to other than not having enough phones to sell. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 5:04 PM, mike xha...@gmail.com wrote: Gripping any mobile phone will result in some attenuation of its antenna performance, with certain places being worse than others depending on the placement of the antennas. This is a fact of life for every wireless phone. If you ever experience this on your iPhone 4, avoid gripping it in the lower left corner in a way that covers both sides of the black strip in the metal band, or simply use one of many available cases. Sure it's great spin, but they admit that holding the phone in the way 90% of users do will result in signal loss. Like my phone, if I hold it upside down and backwards, sideways to my ear so it's unusable, I tend to lose a little signal. Holding it like a phone however, I've had no signal loss. Thanks for the information. However, that is not really the issue with the iPhone. The issue is that the new iPhone places the antenna, or active portions of it, where it can easily come into direct contact with the hand of the user. Other phones have their antenna systems fully insulated and thus not able to directly contact anything external to the phone itself. While mere proximity of any external conductive material can cause a negative effect on an antenna, were such material to come into direct contact with an antenna, far more serious problems may ensue. This is what is happening with the new iPhone, and this is not the norm for cell phones no matter what Apple says. You say spin, I'll offer disingenuous. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
Read Gibson's analysis and you will understand that this is really a very marginal problem. If one has good signal strength it won't matter how you hold the phone. If your signal strength is about to go over a cliff, anything you do can potentially push you over. One of those things is touching the phone in a particular spot. They have already sold 2,000,000 of the new phones so even a 1 in a million problem will have a couple of hits. Back when I used to listen to a radio while commuting I knew to stand in specific spots on the train platform. Moving even a few inches would lose the signal. It is not magic, it is physics. On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:06 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the information. However, that is not really the issue with the iPhone. The issue is that the new iPhone places the antenna, or active portions of it, where it can easily come into direct contact with the hand of the user. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
I say tongue and cheek. Half of what Jobs says is spin or disingenuous. At his heart, he's just a car salesman...good cars though. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 3:06 PM, phartz...@gmail.com phartz...@gmail.comwrote: You say spin, I'll offer disingenuous. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
You are right, and for whatever reason Apple ignored the physics. I say it was for form over function, you can deny all you want, but Apple has admitted the problem. On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 3:24 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: It is not magic, it is physics. On Jun 28, 2010, at 6:06 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Thanks for the information. However, that is not really the issue with the iPhone. The issue is that the new iPhone places the antenna, or active portions of it, where it can easily come into direct contact with the hand of the user. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** * * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:24 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: It is not magic, it is physics. Well, then let us sum this thing up. In your view, is there anything whatsoever that is problematic, in terms of the end user of these phones, about how Apple decided to use an antenna system that is highly exposed to direct contact with conductive material that is external to and not a part of the phone itself? Should Apple have insulated the antenna from contact with external conductive material, and made that insulation an integral component of the basic phone package as opposed to offering a separate accessory that performs this function that comes in at 15% of the cost of the phone itself? Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:13 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Well, then let us sum this thing up. In your view, is there anything whatsoever that is problematic, in terms of the end user of these phones, about how Apple decided to use an antenna system that is highly exposed to direct contact with conductive material that is external to and not a part of the phone itself? Some people in marginal reception areas are reporting problems. Some people who had reception problems with previous models are reporting the new model does not have the problem. You need to tell me what proportion of the 1.7 million iPhone 4s sold are having this problem and where they are geographically. Then compare this to the numbers who claim improved reception. Then we can figure out if there is any real problem. Should Apple have insulated the antenna from contact with external conductive material, and made that insulation an integral component of the basic phone package as opposed to offering a separate accessory that performs this function that comes in at 15% of the cost of the phone itself? I would speculate that the purchase price of phone rubbers is not being subsidized by ATT. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:36 PM, tjpa t...@tjpa.com wrote: On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:13 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: Well, then let us sum this thing up. In your view, is there anything whatsoever that is problematic, in terms of the end user of these phones, about how Apple decided to use an antenna system that is highly exposed to direct contact with conductive material that is external to and not a part of the phone itself? Some people in marginal reception areas are reporting problems. Some people who had reception problems with previous models are reporting the new model does not have the problem. You need to tell me what proportion of the 1.7 million iPhone 4s sold are having this problem and where they are geographically. Then compare this to the numbers who claim improved reception. Then we can figure out if there is any real problem. A complete non-answer of the question as posed. Should Apple have insulated the antenna from contact with external conductive material, and made that insulation an integral component of the basic phone package as opposed to offering a separate accessory that performs this function that comes in at 15% of the cost of the phone itself? I would speculate that the purchase price of phone rubbers is not being subsidized by ATT. Another complete non-answer of the question. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Jun 28, 2010, at 8:45 PM, phartz...@gmail.com wrote: A complete non-answer of the question as posed. You just won't accept any answer except the one you are promoting. You don't want reality to get in the way. Experiences http://www.macintouch.com/readerreports/iphone4/index.html#d28jun2010 Peter Dy i was on a call (more like on hold) today for around 20 min and during that time i was trying to drop the call by bridging the left upper and lower antennas. in short, i wasn't able to drop the call. i just got down to 1 bar and the call sounded just as good as 5 bars. Robert Wright I have an 3 year old MotoKRZR k1m cell phone. I am in the process of getting an iPhone 4. I can produce the same signal degradation on the MotoKRZR by grasping it in various configurations. I suspect this is characteristic of all cell phones. Don Andrachuk Steve Birchall asked, ...why is this just being noticed on the 4th generation iPhone, and seems to have not been noticed by users of any other cell phone? Good question! The issue exists for many, if not most, cellphones to varying degrees. This article points out similar findings with the Nexus One and a Nokia handset: http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/24/other-mobile-phones-with-similar-signal-loss-issues/ etc. etc. * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:02 PM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: ...why is this just being noticed on the 4th generation iPhone, and seems to have not been noticed by users of any other cell phone? Good question! The issue exists for many, if not most, cellphones to varying degrees. This article points out similar findings with the Nexus One and a Nokia handset: http://www.macrumors.com/2010/06/24/other-mobile-phones-with-similar-signal-loss-issues/ Nobody, myself included, has denied the potential for signal degradation were a conductive material to alter the normal characteristics of a cell phone antenna. An antenna that is directly exposed to conductive material is more subject to such adversity as is an antenna of the same design that is shielded, to one degree or another, from such direct exposure. To wit, the simple application of a piece of tape, serving as insulation, over the portion of the iPhone that causes some signal degradation can fix the problem in many, perhaps most cases. To my way of thinking, this is something that Apple should have taken into consideration in a manner other than drooling over all the extra money they could make from those bumper accessories. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
Re: [CGUYS] iPhone 4, Engineering thoughts
On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 1:09 AM, t.piwowar t...@tjpa.com wrote: You clearly did not read 2/3s of my last post. Here is another quote... I read it, the whole thing. I think that you understand the point about why it is best not to have an antenna of any sort or for any use coming into direct contact with conductive material of undetermined capacitive and/or conductive characteristics if it can be avoided. Even some of the very articles that you have referred to maintain that same thing. However, you simply refuse to say that Apple could have done better in this instance, thus I am left to puzzle over why you take such an intransigent position on something that is so obvious. Steve * ** List info, subscription management, list rules, archives, privacy ** ** policy, calmness, a member map, and more at http://www.cguys.org/ ** *
