Re: future of CTWM

2003-02-03 Thread Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker
OK, I've fetched the archive of releases that Claude sent me, and am
going to set up a CVS repository with it in the next few days (maybe
sooner, but I'm alone with the kid this weekend, so my time is
currently a bit on the short side).  I just now made it secure (using
the OSSP Shiela ACL and log script, you can see it for yourself by
clicking in the right places at www.ossp.org) and ready for external
developpers (with no need to add accounts, all I will need is your SSH
key and the usual checkup).

With time, I will take in other people to help development, in a
meritocratic sort of way: do some work, send me patches that I don't
reject (key feature! :-)) and that are more than just a small bug fix,
and be patient.  Basicaly, show me your competence and make sure you
want to dedicate time on this project in a consistent way.


For other logistics, I assume the following changes will be needed:

- move of mailing list, unless Claude wants to keep managing that
  part.
- move of web site, of there is one (all I've found is ctwm.dl.nu, and
  if that one is fine with everyone, I sure don't mind one thing less
  to deal with.  I will need to know how releases have been handled so
  far, though).
- Unless I release to ctwm.dl.nu in some way, move of release
  repository.  I plan to distribute with HTTP only (because it's
  easier to handle in a firewall, that's all :-)).  No need for FTP
  here, and with nice utilities like wget, it's user-friendly too :-).

Anything else that I need to set up?  Ah, yes, I'm going to set up a
bug tracker using RT2 (why RT2?  Because I already know it, and it
works for my purposes).  When that one is up, I'd appreciate it if
anyone having a wish, a bug to report or a patch simply sent it that
way.  There will be mailing lists to handle this.


Now, some people here talked about licensing fees or something like
that.  I don't quite know how I will set something like that up, but
I'd sure appreciate some donations (regular ones would be great!), it
would diminish my need to spend time on real jobs or consulting
assignments.  Please tell me what information you need to make
something like this possible (I'm new at handling donations, so I'm
not sure wjat I need to tell you).


Any other questions that need to be answered?  Fire away!

-- 
Richard Levitte | http://richard.levitte.org/ | Spannv. 38, I
Levitte Programming | http://www.lp.se/   | S-168 35 Bromma
T: +46-708-26 53 44 | | SWEDEN
 Price, performance, quality...  choose the two you like



Re: future of CTWM

2003-01-20 Thread Matthew D. Fuller
On Thu, Jan 16, 2003 at 04:41:47PM -0500 I heard the voice of
Michael George, and lo! it spake thus:
 
 Here I think you're right.  I'd say that those of us who use what many
 call minimalist WMs have either been using *nix for decades or are
 very technically oriented.

Most of my friends around here use KDE or Gnome these days, and say
things like, Yeah, we USED to use twm, but that's only because we didn't
have a choice; now we DO have a choice, why do you keep using it?.  I
swear they're speaking English, but I don't understand how the words fit
together   8-)


 Perhaps not.  I have technically minded, but graphics programming I
 have never done.  I doubt I'd be very adept at doing it.  Now if we
 need Linux drivers I might be able to do that! :)

True, to be sure.  OTOH, you know C well enough to be able, with some
effort, to wrap your head around the parts of the code that don't
directly fiddle with the X interface.  And if you really set your mind to
it, you could probably learn enough to understand that.  So I think it is
with most of us; heck, just looking at the Xlib API gives me the
screaming meemies (however you spell that), but aside from that I can
usually figure out enough to get by.

The user community as a whole is technical enough that when they find a
problem, they'll try to solve it themselves before piping up Hey, this
doesn't work.  So, they'll either solve it themselves and mention the
problem and the solution, or they'll get it as far as they can and be
able to give much better problem reports than XYZ doesn't work.  And I
think there's enough people here who have done enough {yacc,X
programming,etc} to be able to jump in and help narrow it down.

With those bounds, I think we can have pretty good faith that it won't be
as easy as any one or any ten people throwing in their towels to kill
forward motion.


 I *only* meant that as the specs for WMs change that if ctwm is not
 modified it will eventually become out of date.  Not many people use
 twm anymore, I'd guess (but I've guessed wrong before...  :)  I
 certainly did *not* mean that it is an archiac design or piece of
 software!  If some can take up the baton,

It _is_ archaic, because it's based around rather old paradigms (boy, I
hate using that word sometimes).  It's not obsolete, though, because
nobody's yet come up with a better paradigm  :)


 I hear you!  And I have no intention of moving.  However, if I need to
 open gnumeric or some other graphical app and it croaks becaue ctwm
 didn't implement some part of a protocol, it's utility will lessen for
 me.

This is something I haven't yet encountered (though I've never tried
gnumeric or a lot of other newer apps, so I may just be living a
sheltered life).  I expect this will be one of those areas where sooner
or later, someone will give; writing X apps that require a certain WM
kinda flies in the face of the whole reason the WM is just another
client in the first place.  Hrmph.  Well, I have faith it'll be a
temporary problem.


 However, X11 on two VT's might cover stuff like that, too :)

Nah; just use Xnest; have it take up the whole screen on one workspace,
and *bam*; done  :)



-- 
Matthew Fuller (MF4839)   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Systems/Network Administrator |  http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/

The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I
  haven't figured out how to light the middle yet



future of CTWM

2003-01-16 Thread Michael George
I haven't seen anyone post anything about taking over ctwm, except that some
have offered to pay for its maintenance and some have offered a home for its
site...

I'm sure CTWM will be find to use as-is for some time to come.  However, with
the increase in GNOME and KDE apps and their desire for more functionality on
the desktop, ctwm will become obsolete someday.

Does anyone here know of an approximate replacement for ctwm?  With mult
desktops, not just a big virtual desktop, with the .twmrc-like config file,
etc...?

-- 
In light of the terrorist attack on the U.S.:
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759



Re: future of CTWM

2003-01-16 Thread Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker
This is a message so that you don't lose hope quite yet.

I've mailed directly to Claude saying that I was *thinking* about take
up the challenge of bringing CTWM further.

I'm still thinking, and I must weigh in the needs of other projects
(I'm one of the developpers pf OpenSSL, and probably one of the more
active ones) and family.

I must say that the offers of pay are quite encouraging, and if that
is a reality (I'm sorry, I don't mean to be suspicious, it's just that
I've never been payed for freeware work before. so I'm stumbling a
bit, and I need to be a little cautious), working on CTWM will most
probably be a reality for me.

As I'm writing, I'm thinking I need to get the picture, so I think
I'll ask Claude to send me all versions he has a copy of (I want to
make sure I have as much history as I can), or point at a URL, and I'd
like to get all proposed patches he has available.  I'll go back into
my mail archive and reread all I can so I can see the development as
it has been going on the last year or so (I've been very much a
lurker).  After that, I'll set up a CVS repository with all those
versions and we'll go from there.  I'm thinking I could do
maintainance for a while to kind of feel it out.  If I still like it
in, say, half a year, I'll keep the job, otherwise, I'll reassess
the situation at that time.

Claude, does that sound like a plan?  What say the rest on this list?

As for a home, I will hopefully have something set up today...  If
not, I might take up the offer from whoever that was, at least for a
while.

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:41:42 
-0500, Michael George [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

george I'm sure CTWM will be find to use as-is for some time to come.
george However, with the increase in GNOME and KDE apps and their
george desire for more functionality on the desktop, ctwm will become
george obsolete someday.

Can I find out what those demands are from earlier mail, or can anyone
give me a recap?

-- 
Richard Levitte | http://richard.levitte.org/ | Spannv. 38, I
Levitte Programming | http://www.lp.se/   | S-168 35 Bromma
T: +46-708-26 53 44 | | SWEDEN
 Price, performance, quality...  choose the two you like



Re: future of CTWM

2003-01-16 Thread Michael George
On Thu, Jan 16, 2003 at 10:01:24AM +0100, Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker wrote:
 This is a message so that you don't lose hope quite yet.
 
 I've mailed directly to Claude saying that I was *thinking* about take
 up the challenge of bringing CTWM further.
 
 I'm still thinking, and I must weigh in the needs of other projects
 (I'm one of the developpers pf OpenSSL, and probably one of the more
 active ones) and family.
 
 I must say that the offers of pay are quite encouraging, and if that
 is a reality (I'm sorry, I don't mean to be suspicious, it's just that
 I've never been payed for freeware work before. so I'm stumbling a
 bit, and I need to be a little cautious), working on CTWM will most
 probably be a reality for me.

Sounds good to me!  The only think I see missing is that I've had GNOME apps
that refuse to start up in ctwm.  I think that has to do with the desktop vs.
window manager difference...  Is that what ICCM is about?

I'm sorry I don't know more about the WM's, I wish I did.  But my day job is
working on Mac OS X drivers and utilities so I already have to suffer with a
change in working paradigm amongst other things...

And believe me, working on a desktop like OS X (or KDE or GNOME or Win 95,
etc) and all the mousing I have to do and the lack of a good VWM sure makes me
love CTWM all the more!

As for paying, whomever takes on this project can feel free to chache my email
address and when the handoff is done we can talk about how much and how
frequently.  I'm not made of $$, but it *is* a business expense for me...
From there I'll mark my calendar and the maintainer(s) can email me.

Anyone else who would be willing to help out like this, please let the
appropriate people know.

-Michael

-- 
In light of the terrorist attack on the U.S.:
They that give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
-- Benjamin Franklin, 1759



Re: future of CTWM

2003-01-16 Thread Kai Gro├čjohann
Richard Levitte - VMS Whacker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 15 Jan 2003 21:41:42 
-0500, Michael George [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

 george I'm sure CTWM will be find to use as-is for some time to come.
 george However, with the increase in GNOME and KDE apps and their
 george desire for more functionality on the desktop, ctwm will become
 george obsolete someday.

 Can I find out what those demands are from earlier mail, or can anyone
 give me a recap?

I guess the most important part is to implement the NETWM spec or
WMNET spec or whatever it is called.  That's used by KDE and Gnome to
communicate with the window manager.
-- 
Ambibibentists unite!



Re: future of CTWM

2003-01-16 Thread Kai Gro├čjohann
Michael George [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Does anyone here know of an approximate replacement for ctwm?  With mult
 desktops, not just a big virtual desktop, with the .twmrc-like config file,
 etc...?

After ctwm, I've used fvwm2 and Sawfish.  Both have a quite different
config file syntax.  Sawfish is nice because it's very configurable.
Arguably, good configurability is a strong point of ctwm.

People also might like to investigate more esoteric window
managers -- just to broaden the horizon perhaps.  There is Ion which
partitions the screen into nonoverlapping frames, and there is larswm
which can position windows automatically (such that the most
important window is biggest), and then there is ratpoison which
provides an Emacs-like split-window interface (like C-x 2 and C-x 3
in Emacs).  I've also stumbled across nwm (not a window manager)
which can be used to enhance the capabilities of a lesser window
manager.  (Though KDE is too stubborn :-()

-- 
Ambibibentists unite!



Re: future of CTWM

2003-01-16 Thread Matthew D. Fuller
On Wed, Jan 15, 2003 at 09:41:42PM -0500 I heard the voice of
Michael George, and lo! it spake thus:
 I haven't seen anyone post anything about taking over ctwm, except that some
 have offered to pay for its maintenance and some have offered a home for its
 site...

I rather think the community as a whole would be averse to letting it
die  8-)

And, I'd venture that as a whole the community of ctwm users is more
serious and more technically knowledgeable than the community of most
other window managers (though that could just be my own conceit).

With the number of people, and especially with the presence of sites like
SourceForge (which has its own problems, but that's neither here nor
there), we're unlikely to ever lack for space and bandwidth to host it.
And with the users in general, we're unlikely to lack for maintenance,
and probably not for people implementing new features.


 I'm sure CTWM will be find to use as-is for some time to come.  However, with
 the increase in GNOME and KDE apps and their desire for more functionality on
 the desktop, ctwm will become obsolete someday.

Pshaw.  If the ctwm outlook on UI functionality is obsolete, just
lock me up in the Tower of London   :)


 Does anyone here know of an approximate replacement for ctwm?  With mult
 desktops, not just a big virtual desktop, with the .twmrc-like config file,
 etc...?

If I knew of a better WM, I'd be using it.  I've got patches on my
webpage for the few things that ctwm didn't let me do that I wanted to,
and a little script suite to handle the config files.  I did my searching
for a 'better' WM that already did what I wanted, and I'm still here.
Guess that about covers it.


-- 
Matthew Fuller (MF4839)   |  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Systems/Network Administrator |  http://www.over-yonder.net/~fullermd/

The only reason I'm burning my candle at both ends, is because I
  haven't figured out how to light the middle yet