Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Chavdar Ivanov]

At times I thought of suggesting to draw this up to a close, perhaps move a
few quotes to the offensive section to placate the PC brigade, but it seems
kinda nice to follow this dialogue, which while presenting opposing
opinions is still being held in a very civilised way...

Cheers,

Chavdar


On Mon, 20 Nov 2017 at 21:01 Andy Ruhl  wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Rhialto  wrote:
> > You do realise that the term "political correctness" was intruduced as a
> > straw man to make perfectly reasonable arguments look ridiculous?
> > Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.
>
> I think it's a notion invented to avoid offending people, by people
> who themselves like to avoid confontation. Which masks facts and true
> debate.
>
> Respect for someone doesn't include agreeing with them. This is what
> is missed in political correctness.
>
> Andy
>

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Marc Balmer  wrote:
  ..
 |„Wollt Ihr den totalen Krieg?“

 |  — Hitler, Adolf (probably when first introduced to systemd)

But only through the mouth of Joseph Goebbels, then.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[trebol]

PC It's not about ideology.
PC is not about respecting other people.

PC is the fraud of pretending to be a social justice defender while you 
are doing nothing but attacking other people and bringing attention as if 
you were having an epic fight between Good and Bad when there is absolutely 
nothing. They don't care about the principles of those people, they can 
have the same. What is important is to be able to point at them using the 
rules they invented themselves and they try to impose to others.


This immature behavior is a menace for free of speech, sane social 
interactions, and the discussion every society has to have every day to 
draw a good path for its future. It hasn't to be a statement that could 
offend someone. It could be naming a name, just saying a word.


You have the perfect example from Rhialto:


Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.


Don't you see?

Look at the problem here. An adage. And it doesn't matter what the adage
says. The problem is that is from Adolf Hitler. So you don't read it and
think "Look what Hitler said", but instead you panic:

"Look!!, It says Hitler!! They have quotations from Hitler!! I'm 
offended!! PC emergency!!"


This is an operating system project I'm not part of. I'm using it for a 
while, I don't know. But please, take my advise:


The moment you let this crap enter through your door, isn't going to stop.

Now is a game, then the contents of your web pages, censorship of mailing 
lists, even the way you speak in your irc channels.


Regards,
trebol.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andy Ruhl]

On Mon, Nov 20, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Rhialto  wrote:
> You do realise that the term "political correctness" was intruduced as a
> straw man to make perfectly reasonable arguments look ridiculous?
> Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.

I think it's a notion invented to avoid offending people, by people
who themselves like to avoid confontation. Which masks facts and true
debate.

Respect for someone doesn't include agreeing with them. This is what
is missed in political correctness.

Andy

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Rhialto]

On Sun 19 Nov 2017 at 21:07:39 +0100, Joerg Sonnenberger wrote:
> I call this Bullshit. This is not even Political Correctness, it is part

You do realise that the term "political correctness" was intruduced as a
straw man to make perfectly reasonable arguments look ridiculous?
Anybody who invokes that term automatically shows their true colours.

*plonk*

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[David Holland]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 08:35:49PM -0500, William D. Jones wrote:
 > > SJW
 > Took this thread long enough to play "those evul Ess Jay DoubleUs" card.

Please keep your partisan politics out of this, both of you. It's a
serious matter.

 > And Hitler's actions in life especially cannot be written off as a
 > difference in opinion, dissent, or otherwise up for debate. The
 > implications of his quotes matter.

YES, THAT'S THE POINT.

-- 
David A. Holland
dholl...@netbsd.org

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Hauke Fath  wrote:
  ...
 |For better or worse, humanity gets to own Hitler, just like Pol Pot, 

But Pol Pot was (falsely!?!?) guessing he could make his own
nation strong again by driving his own nation, his own "tribe"
back to the basics, to force a "reraise", a "reduce to the max".
There were also other problems, but i would say it was induced by
the total destabilisation of the entire area that unfortunately
has something to do with mostly American politics.

This -- as i understand it -- is in no way to be compared with the
Hitler movement which has always focused on aggression against
a minority and a rise over the head and at the cost of others.
Millions of others (Russians) had to die of starvation because
food was brought "home to the reich" -- a planned and conscious
political decision!  Germans where healthy and nourished even at
the end of war in 1945!  Compare this with 1917 and 1918 where
deficiency diseases were so widespread in Germany.  Unfortunately
all the winners of WWI are to blame for the aftermath of WWI...

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

m...@netbsd.org wrote:
 |The quotes I removed personally offend me. I assume I've done enough for
 |netbsd to not be considered an evil outsider company who is here to
 |spoil fun.
 |
 |I'm not too excited to contribute to a project that insists on keeping
 |a quote on how women should be stupid by a man who tried to exterminate
 |my family.

But then i want to bring it to your attention that Hitler seems to
have gotten Nietzsche almost completely wrong (like David Holland
said, as far is i understood), and that the person who educed that
quote from Hitler trapped him.  (Which did not save just one
live, though.  And just in case that quote is genuine.)

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 11:27:35PM -0500, Ken Hornstein wrote:
> FWIW, if we are voting, I'm for removing the quotes or moving them to
> the 'alternate' (-o) fortune database.

All the removed Hitler quotes where in that set already. Additionally, a
quote from an American comedian with Jewish family background was
removed, but that one was in the normal set...

Joerg

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Ken Hornstein]

>Governor Matt Bevin of Kentucky didn't want to remove the offending
>statues because that would only serve to sanitize history.  I agree
>with that viewpoint.

I'd be sympthatic to that argument if a) we weren't talking about
monuments to people who were leading an armed insurrection against the
government to preserve the institution of slavery (I mean, seriously?
I didn't see any statues of Vidkun Quisling when I visited Oslo) b) they
weren't on public land in a place where normally people are being
honored for their actions instead of a museum, and c) the bulk of them
weren't erected LONG after the Civil War and many hadn't COINCIDENTLY
been put up at the start of the civil rights movement.

FWIW, if we are voting, I'm for removing the quotes or moving them to
the 'alternate' (-o) fortune database.

--Ken

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Thomas Mueller]

Too difficult to decide what to quote here, but there has been a comparable 
controversy in the USA about whether to remove Confederate statues, statues of 
Confederate leaders and generals who played a big role in the Confederacy 
during the Civil War era.

Governor Matt Bevin of Kentucky didn't want to remove the offending statues 
because that would only serve to sanitize history.  I agree with that viewpoint.

You can't erase history, and NetBSD can't either.  I say to keep the Hitler 
quotes from the viewpoint of opposing censorship.

People need to know about history, including the good and the bad. 

FreeBSD seems obsessed with political correctness.  There was controversy when 
they removed misc/jive from the ports collection.

Tom

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[William D. Jones]

From: Jaromír Doleček
I very strongly object to against anything appeasing any SJW or PC trolls, 
and I'm against removing those quotes.
Took this thread long enough to play "those evul Ess Jay DoubleUs" card. 
Good hint that I can ignore the rest, but in any case. Any time I see 
someone use "SJW", which has completely lost its original meaning, I 
substitute with: "Nobody would be willing to make accommodations for me if I 
were truly hurt or offended by something, so why should I make 
accommodations for others?" Ditto with the person who _very_ helpfully told 
Maya to "grow some balls".


History needs to be remembered, and learnt from. Facts need to be told and 
faced.
Great, do it in a freakin museum or a history textbook, not within the data 
files of a Unix program.


It is a great threat to our modern society that certain groups of people 
today are so intent on silencing dissent or unconfortable voices.
People don't live in a vacuum. Having good technical or orator skills does 
not insulate someone from criticism for abhorrent views.
And Hitler's actions in life especially cannot be written off as a 
difference in opinion, dissent, or otherwise up for debate. The
implications of his quotes matter. And if you agree w/ that, see previous 
paragraph.


--
William D. Jones
thor0...@comcast.net 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Marc Balmer]

> Am 19.11.2017 um 21:03 schrieb Andrew Cagney :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 19 November 2017 at 13:14, > wrote:
> I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
> cannot agree on it, all of fortune.
> 
> Don't confuse my interest in de-escalation with giving up.
> 
> Yes, remove.  Be it the file or the entire program.   NetBSD is technical.  
> If living in the past is your desire, start here: 
> http://www.tuhs.org/archive_sites.html 
> 
> 

We have become a sad spot on the planet...

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andrew Cagney]

On 19 November 2017 at 13:14,  wrote:

> I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
> cannot agree on it, all of fortune.
>
> Don't confuse my interest in de-escalation with giving up.
>

Yes, remove.  Be it the file or the entire program.   NetBSD is technical.
If living in the past is your desire, start here:
http://www.tuhs.org/archive_sites.html

Andrew

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

i wrote:
 |Rhialto  wrote:
 |  ...
 ||I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
 ||forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
 ||context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
 ||he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
 ||was, but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
 ||humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
 ||Mahatma Gandhi.
 |
 |Difficult given that in the FreeBSD core team there is someone who
 |thinks clean rooms are something desirable.  I do not know what
 |such people think.
 |
 |In my context.  If you look in the eyes of a young girl who has to
 |face the "contempt for mankind", and i quote that, expressed by
 |said subjects, and if all you do is to spend ten minutes of your
 |life with the photos on the single page[1], which took me two
 |minutes to find and i know many many many many more of such photos
 |and many of them more painful than those, then the
 |non-understanding you will see in these eyes is so beautifully
 |expressed by the wonderful Hannah Ahrendt and her "Eichmann in
 |Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil".
 |
 |And also, in Buddhism it is clear that the monkey is the start of
 |it all and it is your personal responsibility to walk the spiral
 |staircase to a "higher ground" and "increase your karma".  It is
 |in us and not talking about it or purport it does not exist does
 |not help at all.  It requires active working, it requires
 |reflection, concentration, and transformation.  Chimpanzees are
 |one of the cruelest kind.  A buddhistic teacher of former times
 |said "be kind with them and silent when they cut you in pieces"
 |(if i recall correctly, this is not truly exact).  For those who
 |stick to the committer: that are not only words, you may try that
 |if you can, search "Lingchi" on the web -- but be aware!
 |
 |You will never be able to reflect something that you do not even
 |know about.  You will never be able to look back over twenty years
 |of time and get ashamed of having gotten something so wrong if
 |you never got even in contact with it at first.  Hitler got his
 |Villa and the entire mountain it stands on as well, a private doctor,
 |a Mercedes-Benz.  Making such deals seems to attract not few
 |people.  You could go on a cheap dreamboat holiday.  The regime
 |was bankrupt very soon, but others had to pay for it already by
 |then, with their resources, money first, humans and other natural
 |ones later.
 |Somehow that reminds me of something.

I have forgotten the URL:

  https://shoaportalvienna.wordpress.com/category/buchenwald/

Ciao, and a nice Sunday.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Marc Balmer]

> Am 19.11.2017 um 16:44 schrieb Joerg Sonnenberger :
> 
> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 10:04:41AM -0500, William D. Jones wrote:
>>> Seriously, if you don't know who Hitler was and why quotes from him
>>> should be seen
>> in a certain perspective, you should take a lesson on modern world
>> history and not run around being offended.
>> 
>> It's not about being offended, it's about normalizing/trivializing his
>> impact. Evidence: Clearly, little thought was put into whether
>> these quotes belong in a silly Unix program, rather than history textbooks
>> or museums which are equipped to temper the
>> intended impact of the Nazi party.
> 
> As has been said elsewhere in this thread already: a lot of the behavior
> of Adolf Hitler was quite normal or at least calculated to be normal.
> There is no trivialisation going on here. While I can't stand his
> choice in the tonal sense, he was a brilliant orator and there are many
> useful quotes from him. Heck, he is often found on the list of most
> inspirational quotes. If anything, there should be more and better
> quotes from him in the database.


„Wollt Ihr den totalen Krieg?“

  — Hitler, Adolf (probably when first introduced to systemd)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Chavdar Ivanov]

I agree with you. My comment was much weaker, but the intention was the
same.

Chavdar Ivanov

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 at 16:41, Jaromír Doleček 
wrote:

> I very strongly object to against anything appeasing any SJW or PC trolls,
> and I'm against removing those quotes.
>
> History needs to be remembered, and learnt from. Facts need to be told and
> faced. It is a great threat to our modern society that certain groups of
> people today are so intent on silencing dissent or unconfortable voices.
> Certain that trend to remove free speach and towards totalitarian society
> is much bigger present danger, than quoting these long dead people.
>
> Jaromir
>
> 2017-11-18 15:51 GMT+01:00 Andy Ruhl :
>
>> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:41 AM, Chavdar Ivanov  wrote:
>> > even if it is perhaps a proper quote, but is worth remembering and
>> > reminding people.
>>
>> At the risk of not being politically correct, I agree.
>>
>> The world seems intent on not remembering all history and even
>> changing parts of it to suit today's sensibilities. Which seems
>> dangerous to me. "All of it" (history) is "how we got here" and should
>> be learned from.
>>
>> I'm not necessarily against removing stuff that is offensive to more
>> than a few people. But if there is value in remembering it to put it
>> into modern context, then we should think about it a bit.
>>
>> Andy
>>
>
> --

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Rhialto  wrote:
  ...
 |I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
 |forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
 |context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
 |he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
 |was, but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
 |humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
 |Mahatma Gandhi.

Difficult given that in the FreeBSD core team there is someone who
thinks clean rooms are something desirable.  I do not know what
such people think.

In my context.  If you look in the eyes of a young girl who has to
face the "contempt for mankind", and i quote that, expressed by
said subjects, and if all you do is to spend ten minutes of your
life with the photos on the single page[1], which took me two
minutes to find and i know many many many many more of such photos
and many of them more painful than those, then the
non-understanding you will see in these eyes is so beautifully
expressed by the wonderful Hannah Ahrendt and her "Eichmann in
Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil".

And also, in Buddhism it is clear that the monkey is the start of
it all and it is your personal responsibility to walk the spiral
staircase to a "higher ground" and "increase your karma".  It is
in us and not talking about it or purport it does not exist does
not help at all.  It requires active working, it requires
reflection, concentration, and transformation.  Chimpanzees are
one of the cruelest kind.  A buddhistic teacher of former times
said "be kind with them and silent when they cut you in pieces"
(if i recall correctly, this is not truly exact).  For those who
stick to the committer: that are not only words, you may try that
if you can, search "Lingchi" on the web -- but be aware!

You will never be able to reflect something that you do not even
know about.  You will never be able to look back over twenty years
of time and get ashamed of having gotten something so wrong if
you never got even in contact with it at first.  Hitler got his
Villa and the entire mountain it stands on as well, a private doctor,
a Mercedes-Benz.  Making such deals seems to attract not few
people.  You could go on a cheap dreamboat holiday.  The regime
was bankrupt very soon, but others had to pay for it already by
then, with their resources, money first, humans and other natural
ones later.
Somehow that reminds me of something.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Jaromír Doleček]

I very strongly object to against anything appeasing any SJW or PC trolls,
and I'm against removing those quotes.

History needs to be remembered, and learnt from. Facts need to be told and
faced. It is a great threat to our modern society that certain groups of
people today are so intent on silencing dissent or unconfortable voices.
Certain that trend to remove free speach and towards totalitarian society
is much bigger present danger, than quoting these long dead people.

Jaromir

2017-11-18 15:51 GMT+01:00 Andy Ruhl :

> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:41 AM, Chavdar Ivanov  wrote:
> > even if it is perhaps a proper quote, but is worth remembering and
> > reminding people.
>
> At the risk of not being politically correct, I agree.
>
> The world seems intent on not remembering all history and even
> changing parts of it to suit today's sensibilities. Which seems
> dangerous to me. "All of it" (history) is "how we got here" and should
> be learned from.
>
> I'm not necessarily against removing stuff that is offensive to more
> than a few people. But if there is value in remembering it to put it
> into modern context, then we should think about it a bit.
>
> Andy
>

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Paul Goyette]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, co...@sdf.org wrote:


I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
cannot agree on it, all of fortune.


We have an "offensive" collection/database.  _Moving_ offensive quotes 
to the -o file is an appropriate action;  removing the quotes in their 
entirety is not appripriate, IMHO.


As the man page says (paraphrased) if you're not willing to _be_ 
offended, don't ask for an offensive fortune.



+--+--++
| Paul Goyette | PGP Key fingerprint: | E-mail addresses:  |
| (Retired)| FA29 0E3B 35AF E8AE 6651 | paul at whooppee dot com   |
| Kernel Developer | 0786 F758 55DE 53BA 7731 | pgoyette at netbsd dot org |
+--+--++

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[John Nemeth]

On Nov 19,  8:48pm, Rhialto wrote:
} On Sun 19 Nov 2017 at 18:14:06 +, co...@sdf.org wrote:
} > I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
} > cannot agree on it, all of fortune.
} 
} It isn't even so much that they are "offensive" as such. It is just that
} out there in the Real World, you Simply Do Not Quote Adolf Hitler, at
} least not without embedding it in proper historical context and making
} absolutely clear that we're talking about a really horrible person, etc
} etc. Those are all things way outside the scope of fortune(1), so those
} quotes have no place there.
} 
} Why this is so difficult to understand for intelligent persons, I don't
} know.

 It is completely normal for intelligent people to have different
opinions.  But, have you considered that the intelligent people
have trouble understanding why you don't understand their position?
When a large number of people disagree with you, it's time to take
a look in the mirror.

 This isn't to say that the masses are always correct.  They
could be suffering from group think (another way of saying peer
pressure), mass delusion, common self-interest, etc.  Anybody that
knows me will know that I'm totally off-side when it comes to AGW.
I'm totatlly aware of that, but I have valid defensible reasons
along with some explanations for why I think the other side takes
their position.  I'm not going to get into any of this here since
it is seriously off-topic and would generate a huge flamewar.  My
point is that if you find yourself off-side, then you need to
consider why.  If after that consideration, you feel that you are
still correct then all the more power to you.  However, whining
about people not taking your position isn't going to be very
effective (something I need to keep in mind).

}-- End of excerpt from Rhialto

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[William D. Jones]

I think you may better understand it if you consider that "Hitler was

bad" is always the default context, regardless of whatever the isolated
quote from him is.

Apparently not, which is why I've seen multiple people in this thread say he 
was a brilliant

orator and "more/better quotes from him should be in the db".

You can argue that's objectively correct; he was manipulative and knew how 
to get
others to do his bidding. But again, a silly Unix program is not the place 
to bring
attention to this fact. I don't see how "Well, he said some 
interesting/quotable things" or
"his artwork was interesting" is anything but a _distraction_ from the fact 
he was a
horrible human being. Nor do I see how either of those factoids carry 
anywhere near

as much weight about his character as his actions in life.

So I can't really blame those that are, have been
and will be offended.

--
William D. Jones
thor0...@comcast.net 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[John Nemeth]

On Nov 19, 11:46am, Hauke Fath wrote:
} On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 21:24:18 +0100, Rhialto wrote:
} 
} > and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
} > he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
} > was,
} 
} I kind of object to this attempt to de-humanize Hitler. I think it very 
} much belittles the role of the millions of willingly helping hands (and 
} brains) he found, and without which he would not have gone anywhere. 
} Brecht's "Questions from A Worker Who Reads" applies, I guess: 
} .

 This gave me a 404, but Google was kind enough to provide
another reference:
http://www.bradford-delong.com/2011/04/questions-from-a-worker-who-reads-by-bertolt-brecht.html
 , http://tinyurl.com/y97x9qb9 .

} For better or worse, humanity gets to own Hitler, just like Pol Pot, 
} Stalin, Cromwell and all the other butchers. This is what we can turn 
} into, when push comes to shove.
} 
} > but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
} > humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
} > Mahatma Gandhi.

 Gandhi was no saint, neither was Mother Theresa for that
matter.  If you look, you will find things that are considered to
be bad, especially in the light of history.  There is unlikely to
be a human being anywhere that has never done a bad thing.  I will
agree that with some people, it is hard to see the positive, but
everybody has good and bad points.

} Like on a public library shelf ("biographies"), you mean, or on TV, 
} where a nazi war film will be displayed through the same apparatus as a 
} Gandhi film?
} 
}-- End of excerpt from Hauke Fath

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andrew Cagney]

On 19 November 2017 at 15:16, Hisashi T Fujinaka  wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, Andy Ruhl wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Joerg Sonnenberger  wrote:
>>>
>>> choice in the tonal sense, he was a brilliant orator and there are many
>>> useful quotes from him. Heck, he is often found on the list of most
>>> inspirational quotes. If anything, there should be more and better
>>> quotes from him in the database.
>>
>>
>> Yeah that's a step too far for me.
>>
>> Preserving the fortune program as it is for historical context is fine
>> for me. Adding more quotes from this jerk isn't productive. That would
>> send the wrong message. People can find these quotes elsewhere.
>>
>> In that sense I guess my position is preserving fortune as a
>> historical relic, nothing more. It's a snapshot in time of what the
>> developers of this stuff were thinking.
>
>
> I suggested that /usr/games just be moved to pkgsrc on irc. This makes a
> good argument for that move, to me, because there's no reason to be
> carrying around all that code if it's just for 'historic' purposes.

Yes please.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[John Nemeth]

On Nov 19,  4:53pm, m...@netbsd.org wrote:
}
} The quotes I removed personally offend me. I assume I've done enough for
} netbsd to not be considered an evil outsider company who is here to
} spoil fun.

 A huge number of the quotes are likely to offend somebody.
If everybody ran around deleting quotes that personally offended
them, then we might as well delete the whole thing.  The fact that
you were personally offended is of no relevance whatsoever.

 Taking action in the middle of a discussion to preempt the
discussion is extremely rude and anti-social behaviour.  Contributions
to the project do not excuse bad behaviour.

}-- End of excerpt from m...@netbsd.org

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Jan Danielsson]

On 11/19/17 20:48, Rhialto wrote:
>> I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
>> cannot agree on it, all of fortune.
> 
> It isn't even so much that they are "offensive" as such. It is just that
> out there in the Real World, you Simply Do Not Quote Adolf Hitler, at
> least not without embedding it in proper historical context and making
> absolutely clear that we're talking about a really horrible person, etc
> etc. Those are all things way outside the scope of fortune(1), so those
> quotes have no place there.

   I have never encountered an adult to whom I had to explain that
Hitler was a horrible person.  In fact, his name is kind of
semi-uniquely tied to the attribute of being a horrible person.

   And if I were to encounter such a person, I think there's something
wrong with them which removing Hitler quotes from the NetBSD fortune
database will not fix.

> Why this is so difficult to understand for intelligent persons, I don't
> know.

   I think you may better understand it if you consider that "Hitler was
bad" is always the default context, regardless of whatever the isolated
quote from him is.

-- 
Kind regards,
Jan Danielsson

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Hisashi T Fujinaka]

On Sun, 19 Nov 2017, Andy Ruhl wrote:


On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Joerg Sonnenberger  wrote:

choice in the tonal sense, he was a brilliant orator and there are many
useful quotes from him. Heck, he is often found on the list of most
inspirational quotes. If anything, there should be more and better
quotes from him in the database.


Yeah that's a step too far for me.

Preserving the fortune program as it is for historical context is fine
for me. Adding more quotes from this jerk isn't productive. That would
send the wrong message. People can find these quotes elsewhere.

In that sense I guess my position is preserving fortune as a
historical relic, nothing more. It's a snapshot in time of what the
developers of this stuff were thinking.


I suggested that /usr/games just be moved to pkgsrc on irc. This makes a
good argument for that move, to me, because there's no reason to be
carrying around all that code if it's just for 'historic' purposes.

--
Hisashi T Fujinaka - ht...@twofifty.com
BSEE + BSChem + BAEnglish + MSCS + $2.50 = coffee

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 08:48:41PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> On Sun 19 Nov 2017 at 18:14:06 +, co...@sdf.org wrote:
> > I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
> > cannot agree on it, all of fortune.
> 
> It isn't even so much that they are "offensive" as such. It is just that
> out there in the Real World, you Simply Do Not Quote Adolf Hitler, at
> least not without embedding it in proper historical context and making
> absolutely clear that we're talking about a really horrible person, etc
> etc. Those are all things way outside the scope of fortune(1), so those
> quotes have no place there.

I call this Bullshit. This is not even Political Correctness, it is part
of a large movement of intellectual mollycoddling that has been very
popular the last two or three decades. As I have said before, if you
need to be told that something Adolf Hitler said might be offending you,
your education failed. If you can't appreciate the intellectual
stimulation of possible offending input, you shouldn't run fortune -o.
Let me put my favorite Hitler quote here:
  Words build bridges into unexplored regions.
I find it somewhat ironic that it is missing from fortunes, but I guess
it is too offensive to people that lived their lifes in walled gardens. 

Joerg

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Rhialto]

On Sun 19 Nov 2017 at 18:14:06 +, co...@sdf.org wrote:
> I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
> cannot agree on it, all of fortune.

It isn't even so much that they are "offensive" as such. It is just that
out there in the Real World, you Simply Do Not Quote Adolf Hitler, at
least not without embedding it in proper historical context and making
absolutely clear that we're talking about a really horrible person, etc
etc. Those are all things way outside the scope of fortune(1), so those
quotes have no place there.

Why this is so difficult to understand for intelligent persons, I don't
know.

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Christos Zoulas]

In article <20171119181406.gc26...@sdf.org>,   wrote:
>I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
>cannot agree on it, all of fortune.

The problem is that "offensive" is not quantifiable term and it is
highly dependend on the reader. This is why FreeBSD ended up removing
everything, and this is where we are going to end up if we enter the
slippery road of sensorship.

A simple rule is: changes must be approved by % of the developer
community (or % of the developer votes).

christos

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[coypu]

I still think that we should remove offensive quotes, and if people
cannot agree on it, all of fortune.

Don't confuse my interest in de-escalation with giving up.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[coypu]

I had the commit message written out and everything.
I'm not sure why we have such a lengthy discussion about a game.

If we care so much about games, I'm gonna plug my pkgsrc games wishlist:
https://github.com/SuperV1234/SSVOpenHexagon
https://github.com/ppy/osu

They should be really good.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Marc Balmer]

> Am 19.11.2017 um 19:01 schrieb co...@sdf.org:
> 
> I had the commit message written out and everything.
> I'm not sure why we have such a lengthy discussion about a game.
> 
> If we care so much about games, I'm gonna plug my pkgsrc games wishlist:
> https://github.com/SuperV1234/SSVOpenHexagon
> https://github.com/ppy/osu
> 
> They should be really good.

Ok. Can we we now have the Adolf Hitler quotes back?  Or did xtos already take 
care of that?

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[trebol]

Just an advice from an outsider that is lurking for a while in your 
domains.


Don't let that PC nonsense enter in your realm.

A fortune doesn't have to be a piece of wisdom. It is just an astonishing 
(or trying to be) adage. Can be funny, ridiculous, horrible, it doesn't 
matter.


There is a road to freedom.  Its milestones are Obedience, Endeavor,
Honesty, Order, Cleanliness, Sobriety, Truthfulness, Sacrifice, and
love of the Fatherland.

-- Adolf Hitler

This is astonishing, because it shows you how good was this bastard in 
oratory. This man wasn't a solitude wolf criminal. He was the leader of 
one of the greatest countries of Europe who commits under his leadership 
one of the greatest abominations of The World's history.


Of course there is not context, that is the beauty of an adage.

A sexist commentary can be astonishing in a lot of ways. Because you do 
not expect that from the author, because it's funny (Yes, black humor CAN 
be funny my little PC babies), because it shows you the small mentality of 
the author, etc.


If you wanted to put this or other programs from games in pkgsrc, because 
the are irrelevant to the system, that I would understand.


But, take my advice, don't let that PC crap in.

trebol.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Marc Balmer]

> Am 19.11.2017 um 18:33 schrieb co...@sdf.org:
> 
> On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 05:58:12PM +0100, Marc Balmer wrote:
>> You should grow some balls.  Not in the biological sense, of course.
> 
> I did, that's why I went ahead and removed them. christos reverted my
> commit.

See.  He grew even more balls.  Your removal of that quotes was not very smart.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[coypu]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 05:58:12PM +0100, Marc Balmer wrote:
> You should grow some balls.  Not in the biological sense, of course.

I did, that's why I went ahead and removed them. christos reverted my
commit.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Marc Balmer]

> Am 19.11.2017 um 17:53 schrieb m...@netbsd.org:
> 
> The quotes I removed personally offend me. I assume I've done enough for
> netbsd to not be considered an evil outsider company who is here to
> spoil fun.
> 
> I'm not too excited to contribute to a project that insists on keeping
> a quote on how women should be stupid by a man who tried to exterminate
> my family.

You should grow some balls.  Not in the biological sense, of course.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[maya]

The quotes I removed personally offend me. I assume I've done enough for
netbsd to not be considered an evil outsider company who is here to
spoil fun.

I'm not too excited to contribute to a project that insists on keeping
a quote on how women should be stupid by a man who tried to exterminate
my family.

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andy Ruhl]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Joerg Sonnenberger  wrote:
> choice in the tonal sense, he was a brilliant orator and there are many
> useful quotes from him. Heck, he is often found on the list of most
> inspirational quotes. If anything, there should be more and better
> quotes from him in the database.

Yeah that's a step too far for me.

Preserving the fortune program as it is for historical context is fine
for me. Adding more quotes from this jerk isn't productive. That would
send the wrong message. People can find these quotes elsewhere.

In that sense I guess my position is preserving fortune as a
historical relic, nothing more. It's a snapshot in time of what the
developers of this stuff were thinking.

Andy

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 10:04:41AM -0500, William D. Jones wrote:
> > Seriously, if you don't know who Hitler was and why quotes from him
> > should be seen
> in a certain perspective, you should take a lesson on modern world
> history and not run around being offended.
> 
> It's not about being offended, it's about normalizing/trivializing his
> impact. Evidence: Clearly, little thought was put into whether
> these quotes belong in a silly Unix program, rather than history textbooks
> or museums which are equipped to temper the
> intended impact of the Nazi party.

As has been said elsewhere in this thread already: a lot of the behavior
of Adolf Hitler was quite normal or at least calculated to be normal.
There is no trivialisation going on here. While I can't stand his
choice in the tonal sense, he was a brilliant orator and there are many
useful quotes from him. Heck, he is often found on the list of most
inspirational quotes. If anything, there should be more and better
quotes from him in the database.

Joerg

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[William D. Jones]

Seriously, if you don't know who Hitler was and why quotes from him should 
be seen

in a certain perspective, you should take a lesson on modern world
history and not run around being offended.

It's not about being offended, it's about normalizing/trivializing his 
impact. Evidence: Clearly, little thought was put into whether
these quotes belong in a silly Unix program, rather than history textbooks 
or museums which are equipped to temper the

intended impact of the Nazi party.

-Original Message- 
From: Joerg Sonnenberger

Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2017 12:23 PM
To: current-users@NetBSD.org
Subject: Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of 
Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]


On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 01:21:25PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:

I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).


I don't get why someone would be appalled by many of them. There is
certainly nothing illegal about them, even here in Germany. Seriously,
if you don't know who Hitler was and why quotes from him should be seen
in a certain perspective, you should take a lesson on modern world
history and not run around being offended.


I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).


I find myself strongly objecting to that.

Joerg

--
William D. Jones
thor0...@comcast.net 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andy Ruhl]

On Sun, Nov 19, 2017 at 6:22 AM, Rhialto  wrote:
> On Sat 18 Nov 2017 at 23:03:27 +, David Holland wrote:
>> You are completely missing the point of why those quotes are there.
>
> Such a remark is rather useless without stating why you think they are
> there. It does nothing to convince me, obviously.

I was hoping some context of the fortune program would emerge from
this discussion. I'll try.

It's a snapshot in time of the mindset of people creating the
forefather of this operating system and programs. I, personally, love
it. It's a reminder that this project didn't start out of a stuffy
commercial setting, which is unfortunately what FreeBSD is becoming
(my opinion only). It was different than the big commercial programs
that were dominating computing at the time. And it still is.

I'm about 99% sure that these messages causing offense were not put
there to offend, but to remind. Possibly to remind the developers why
they were doing what they were doing. Someone said earlier that, to a
large extent, offense is taken, not given. I mostly agree.

If they (the quotes causing offense) need to go I'm not that bothered
because they will still exist elsewhere to remind us of the wrong way
to behave. I guess my question is, why shouldn't they exist here if
they exist elsewhere?

Andy

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Kamil Rytarowski]

On 19.11.2017 11:46, Hauke Fath wrote:
> I kind of object to this attempt to de-humanize

Thanks for raising this. This process of dehumanization doesn't make us
better people and actually dehumanization was what to lead to the
cleaning of the human race from so called "unwanted" people.

There are people who troll so called "anti-nazi activists" and read
Adolf's speeches as-is or with minimal changes of names or contexts on
their manifests and receive laud applause. I find it better to study the
history rather than attempting to erase some people or historical events
pretending that they never happened.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Jan Danielsson]

On 11/19/17 14:22, Rhialto wrote:
[---]
>> You are completely missing the point of why those quotes are there.
> 
> Such a remark is rather useless without stating why you think they are
> there. It does nothing to convince me, obviously.

   You're implying that the quotes are there for nefarious reasons.
Quotes can be quotes just to reflect what someone has said as a matter
of historical fact.  Hitler, despite being one of the worst people ever,
can have said normal things.  Showing those quotes does not erase all
the bad things he did/said; it can be good to see what kind of rhetoric
he used to lure people into the nazi party, or even just to show that
even people who can say normal things can also be, or turn into, monsters.

-- 
Kind regards,
Jan Danielsson

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Rhialto]

On Sat 18 Nov 2017 at 23:03:27 +, David Holland wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 01:21:25PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
>  > I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
>  > that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
>  > wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
>  > illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).
>  > 
>  > I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).
>  > I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
>  > patch.
> 
> You are completely missing the point of why those quotes are there.

Such a remark is rather useless without stating why you think they are
there. It does nothing to convince me, obviously.

> David A. Holland
> dholl...@netbsd.org
-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Hauke Fath]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 21:24:18 +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> On Sat 18 Nov 2017 at 15:02:01 +0100, Hauke Fath wrote:
>> And note the following excerpt from fortune(6):
>> 
>>  -o[...]
> 
> You may have noted that the mentioned quotes are NOT part of the
> offensive set!

I haven't, and you didn't mention it, nor suggest that the supposedly 
offensive quotes should be moved, instead of deleted.

> I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
> forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
> context, 

I don't know about you, but the attribution to Adolf Hitler gives me 
all the context I need for a quote, and then some.

> and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
> he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
> was,

I kind of object to this attempt to de-humanize Hitler. I think it very 
much belittles the role of the millions of willingly helping hands (and 
brains) he found, and without which he would not have gone anywhere. 
Brecht's "Questions from A Worker Who Reads" applies, I guess: 
.

For better or worse, humanity gets to own Hitler, just like Pol Pot, 
Stalin, Cromwell and all the other butchers. This is what we can turn 
into, when push comes to shove.

> but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
> humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
> Mahatma Gandhi.

Like on a public library shelf ("biographies"), you mean, or on TV, 
where a nazi war film will be displayed through the same apparatus as a 
Gandhi film?

Cheerio,
hauke

-- 
Hauke Fath
Ernst-Ludwig-Straße 15
64625 Bensheim
Germany

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Harry Waddell]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 21:24:18 +0100
Rhialto  wrote:

> I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
> forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
> context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person.

These "normalizing" quotes are actually a critical part of a much bigger 
external context since Hitler is such a well known/reviled figure in history.

Since we know that we all have the potential for violence and dehumanization of 
an 
out-group, e.g. as exhibited in the "Stanford Prison Experiment", 
if anything, these quotes make him more terrifying, not less.

Harry Waddell


 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[David Holland]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 01:21:25PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
 > I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
 > that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
 > wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
 > illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).
 > 
 > I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).
 > I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
 > patch.

You are completely missing the point of why those quotes are there.

-- 
David A. Holland
dholl...@netbsd.org

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 09:24:18PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
> forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
> context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
> he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
> was, but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
> humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
> Mahatma Gandhi.

I bet there are a lot of ultra-right wing nut cases that are surpremely
offended by a lot of things Mahatma Gandhi said.

Joerg

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Rhialto]

On Sat 18 Nov 2017 at 15:02:01 +0100, Hauke Fath wrote:
> And note the following excerpt from fortune(6):
> 
>  -oChoose only from potentially offensive aphorisms.  Please, 
> please,
>please request a potentially offensive fortune if and only 
> if you
>believe, deep down in your heart, that you are willing to be
>offended.  (And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o 
> rather
>than give us grief about it, okay?)

You may have noted that the mentioned quotes are NOT part of the
offensive set! (As an aside: The criteria for what is "offensive" seem
rather strange to me; they seem to be mostly religious or sexuality
based, something that is looked at rather differently in Europe than the
USA.)

I agree that bad history should be remembered in context and not
forgotten. However, that is not what these quotes do. They give no
context, and they make A.H. seem like a relatively normal person. Now if
he was quoted at his worst, it might be obvious what sort of monster he
was, but that is not the effect of these quotes. His crimes against
humanity are trivialised by putting things he said next to people like
Mahatma Gandhi.

-Olaf.
-- 
___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
\X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Steffen Nurpmeso]

Rhialto  wrote:
 |It has come to my attention that FreeBSD has removed fortunes quoted
 |from Adolf Hitler a few days ago. I was very surprised that there

I found this a terribly ridiculous change and myself up the wall.
How useful is it cleaning up the room until it looks super clean
if under the carpet you have dirt so much that live on earth
vanishes?  Braindead, feeble and eggless to an extent that
causes goose bumps!  This can not be anything else than one more
symptom of the increasing trivialism in media and society
discourse we all pay for more and more.  In the 70s that
discourse was so that people actually understood (to the best of
my knowledge) to place those quotes in the actual context of
what they lead to.  Etc.  That committer is an idiot, and i was
more than astonished to see that he even is part of the core team
of FreeBSD!  Thank you.

--steffen
|
|Der Kragenbaer,The moon bear,
|der holt sich munter   he cheerfully and one by one
|einen nach dem anderen runter  wa.ks himself off
|(By Robert Gernhardt)

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Joerg Sonnenberger]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 01:21:25PM +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
> that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).

I don't get why someone would be appalled by many of them. There is
certainly nothing illegal about them, even here in Germany. Seriously,
if you don't know who Hitler was and why quotes from him should be seen
in a certain perspective, you should take a lesson on modern world
history and not run around being offended.

> I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).

I find myself strongly objecting to that.

Joerg

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Tom Ivar Helbekkmo]

m...@netbsd.org writes:

> For any fortune quote you add, you may remove another, no questions
> asked.
>
> For you, that means you can get rid of things you find even slightly
> offensive without needing to convince another person of it being
> "offensive enough".

I assume this was intended as ironic sarcasm.  Let me point out how that
seldom works out well on mailing lists -- or, for that matter, on USENET.

-tih
-- 
Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance
of Lisp.  Lisp is the most important idea in computer science.  --Alan Kay

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[maya]

Hi,

I thought a bit about this after seeing FreeBSD remove the database.

I do agree there are offensive things, but it would be nice not to
have a daily debate for all of eternity about whether every single quote
is offensive enough to be removed. The FreeBSD method is tempting, but I
know a lot of people like fortunes, so I wanted to suggest a compromise
rule:

For any fortune quote you add, you may remove another, no questions
asked.

For you, that means you can get rid of things you find even slightly
offensive without needing to convince another person of it being
"offensive enough".

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Andy Ruhl]

On Sat, Nov 18, 2017 at 5:41 AM, Chavdar Ivanov  wrote:
> even if it is perhaps a proper quote, but is worth remembering and
> reminding people.

At the risk of not being politically correct, I agree.

The world seems intent on not remembering all history and even
changing parts of it to suit today's sensibilities. Which seems
dangerous to me. "All of it" (history) is "how we got here" and should
be learned from.

I'm not necessarily against removing stuff that is offensive to more
than a few people. But if there is value in remembering it to put it
into modern context, then we should think about it a bit.

Andy

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Hauke Fath]

On Sat, 18 Nov 2017 13:21:25 +0100, Rhialto wrote:
> It has come to my attention that FreeBSD has removed fortunes quoted
> from Adolf Hitler a few days ago. I was very surprised that there
> actually were such quotes!

Nihil novae... 


> I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
> that we do have the same quotes there. 

To my understanding, the fact that a certain quote is in the fortunes 
database does not mean the NetBSD project identifies with it in any way.

> Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).

I call bullshit on this one. Using symbols of Nazi Germany, like the 
Hitlergruß or swastikas, and denying its crimes is a criminal offense 
here . But you can quote Adolf Hitler till the cows come home if that's 
all you do, as opposed to identifying with the ideology.
 
> I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).

If we officially decide that each and every fortune cookie must comply 
with NetBSD rules, and not hurt any feelings whatsoever, we should 
indeed remove all of fortune(6). 

Pulling the quotes unfortunately does not change the harsh historic 
reality one bit.

> I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
> patch.

>> How-To-Repeat:
> 
> $ fortune -m Hitler all

Just don't do that, then.

And note the following excerpt from fortune(6):

 -oChoose only from potentially offensive aphorisms.  Please, 
please,
   please request a potentially offensive fortune if and only 
if you
   believe, deep down in your heart, that you are willing to be
   offended.  (And that if you are, you'll just quit using -o 
rather
   than give us grief about it, okay?)

Cheerio,
hauke

-- 
Hauke Fath
Ernst-Ludwig-Straße 15
64625 Bensheim
Germany

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Chavdar Ivanov]

It is strange indeed to find them here, although not unexplainable,
the laws are different, one can buy "Mein Kampf" from any book shop in
the UK (this startled me when I came here some 28 years ago - it was
surrounded by "The Capital" and "The Communist Manifesto"...).

Anyway - in the proposed list I see
...

-The fact that Hitler was a political genius unmasks the nature of politics
-in general as no other can.
- -- Wilhelm Reich
...

which should stay; I would have kept also

-What luck for the rulers that men do not think.
- -- Adolf Hitler

even if it is perhaps a proper quote, but is worth remembering and
reminding people.

Chavdar Ivanov

On 18 November 2017 at 12:21, Rhialto  wrote:
> It has come to my attention that FreeBSD has removed fortunes quoted
> from Adolf Hitler a few days ago. I was very surprised that there
> actually were such quotes!
>
> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision=325781
> or
> https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/commit/0271df5714d9ce5274f82889febb6536a2fdba59
>
> Then soon after that they went a bit overboard and removed basically all
> fortune cookies:
> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision=325828
>
> I tried to find any discussion on this in the FreeBSD mailing lists but
> could not find anything, save something from 10 years ago where
> obviously nothing was done in the end.
> http://freebsd.1045724.x6.nabble.com/Re-who-wrote-this-td4249321.html
>
>
> I checked our fortune cookies database, and I was appalled to notice
> that we do have the same quotes there. Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).
>
> I hereby propose to remove them (but not remove all fortunes).
> I have sent a pr (bin/52735, http://gnats.netbsd.org/52735) with a
> patch.
>
>>How-To-Repeat:
>
> $ fortune -m Hitler all
>
> -Olaf.
> --
> ___ Olaf 'Rhialto' Seibert  -- Wayland: Those who don't understand X
> \X/ rhialto/at/falu.nl  -- are condemned to reinvent it. Poorly.



-- 

Re: Remove fortune quotes attributed to or providing admiration of Adolf Hitler [pr bin/52735]

[Kamil Rytarowski]

On 18.11.2017 13:21, Rhialto wrote:
> Apart from those quotes being
> wholly inappropriate in a list of funny quotes, they are probably
> illegal in Germany (where I now happen to live).

I don't know whether quotes are 'admiration', there are more
controversial people like Stalin or Luther and you will end up like
FreeBSD soon removing all the fortunes.

German Wikipedia has a long list of quotes.



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature