Anthony == Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au writes:
Anthony On Sat, Mar 08, 2003 at 04:16:47PM -0500, Sam Hartman
Anthony wrote:
I think that we should implement versioned symbols.
Anthony Uhh, versioned symbols means that programs built on
Anthony Debian systems won't
Manoj == Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Manoj On Wed, 31 Mar 2004 14:15:00 -0500 (EST), Sam Hartman
Manoj [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Manoj It seems to me that this ought to be local policy. Can
Manoj you explain to me how the proposed solutions take site
Manoj
Anthony == Anthony Towns aj@azure.humbug.org.au writes:
Anthony Dividing by years gives:
Anthony CVEs Earliest Years CVEs/Year
Anthony 43 2004 3 14.3 wordpress 63 2002 5 12.6 phpbb2 37 2004
Anthony 3 12.3 moodle 46 2002 5 9.2 bugzilla 45 2001 6 7.5
Anthony phpmyadmin
Steve == Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
Steve Qmail does not value the contents of a bounce
Steve message. Dan documents this in a subordinate clause of his
Steve qmail reliability FAQ. That means: if your qmail is
Steve bouncing mail and at the same time, your system
Sam == Sam Hartman hartm...@debian.org writes:
Steve == Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
Steve Qmail does not value the contents of a bounce message. Dan
Steve documents this in a subordinate clause of his qmail
Steve reliability FAQ. That means: if your qmail is bouncing
Kurt == Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be writes:
Kurt I've been wondering how to interprete that for some time. My
Kurt current idea is that it would require a GR to do that.
I certainly think it would be really bad for the TC to override
delegates on non-technical issues. For example,
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
I'm trying to think of a situation where you'd want m != 1 and where
there would be an intuitively reasonable understanding of what was
intended.
Absent that, I think it's more important that things be clear and easier
to understand
Ian, I consider myself an uninvolved party in this matter; I don't
really want network-manager installed on my systems, but I'm not
particularly keyed up about it.
I'm not on the TC.
I have been following the issue enough to have an opinion.
I'm reasonably good at process issues, and think I
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Hi.
I'm very pleased that you took the time to write a thoughtful response
to my message.
I appreciate that you're trying to work with me even though the
situation is frustrating and you feel under pressure to work towards the
solution
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Ian Ian Jackson writes (Bug#688772: gnome Depends
Ian network-manager-gnome):
6. We specifically forbid anyone from introducing in wheezy, or
in sid until wheezy is released: a. Any new or enhanced
dependencies, or
Don, in your option 4B, I wonder if it would be a good idea to have the
depend be something like g-n-m|wicd|no-network-manager
ANd have an empty extra package that users can install if they really
want neither n-m or wicd?
While I don't get a vote, I think that would be a reasonable option if
Hi.
I'd like to speak a bit to what tthe right answer here is rather than
what the policy currently says.
It's sometimes fairly annoying to move a library out of the default path
and to adjust the build system accordingly.
Russ did that for one of krb5's private libraries, and in retrospect, I
Phillip == Phillip Susi ps...@ubuntu.com writes:
Phillip On 2/18/2013 1:21 PM, Sam Hartman wrote:
2) don't install a .so in a -dev package.
Phillip That might be a signal a human can understand, but the
Phillip build system won't catch it. The goal is to make sure
Guillem == Guillem Jover guil...@debian.org writes:
Guillem On Tue, 2013-02-19 at 20:30:48 -0500, Sam Hartman wrote:
with the current packaging tools, you tend to end up producing
the .shlibs files in order to manage cross-package dependencies
within a single source package
Phillip == Phillip Susi ps...@ubuntu.com writes:
Phillip Not having the .pc file and headers etc in the -dev package
Phillip would prevent the build of anything with a decent
Phillip pkg-config enabled build system, so that could work with a
Phillip tweak to the policy to allow
Adrian == Adrian Bunk b...@stusta.de writes:
Adrian Yes, it is speculation that other new features (or even
Adrian bugfixes) might appear in the kernel and might become
Adrian mandatory in systemd between jessie and jessie+1.
Adrian But that is a risk, and it is a risk that is
Adrian, I'm frustrated when I read your message because you put words in
my mouth that I did not speak.
I never said that Debian should allow systemd to dictate policy for
multiple distributions nor did I say that Debian should allow one
upstream systemd maintainer to dictate decisions for Debian.
Hi.
There seems to be a significant conflict within the TC about what the L
options mean. Speaking as a maintainer who could be affected by this
and as someone who would sponsor a GR to override one interpretation
butnot another, I'd request that the TC clarify what it means with the
next
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Ian Anthony Towns writes (Re: Bug#727708: Call for votes on init
Ian system resolution):
It's really pretty terrible to actively use FD to try to block
options that aren't your favourite. Honestly, I would have
Colin == Colin Watson cjwat...@debian.org writes:
Colin I think Ian and I are agreed that L excludes 1), and permits
Colin 3). On reflection I think I agree that L has to exclude 2)
Colin as well.
Hmm, I am reading Ian as against 3.
I request that TC members work with Ian on the
Yeah, I now understand what you mean by L.
I'll be writing more in the form of a blog post and probably GR text. I
will send a pointer to the TC as I think I may be hitting close to
something that Russ may find useful.
I'll refrain from trying to convince the TC because you have enough
voices
debianfan == debianfan debian...@hushmail.com writes:
debianfanI would like to propose forking Debian if the ctte
debianfan committee selects systemd
It's with great hesitation that I jump in here, and I know what I'm
doing is wrong.
I hope I've earned enough credibility over the
Hi.
There's been a lot of mail in the last couple of days and I'll admit to
a bit of uncertainty to where things stand. I'd appreciate it if people
would correct me if I've gotten anything wrong:
1) Bdale's resolution is waiting for a casting vote to be declared. It
may be possible for a TC
When I've found myself trying to avoid normative language in situations
like this I end up with statements like:
It is important that all packages support smoothe upgrades from Wheezy
to Jessie , even when the system is booted with sysvinit.
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Steve == Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
Steve On Wed, Apr 09, 2014 at 01:27:46PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
Thanks for bringing this issue back to the question that was
brought to the TC.
The discussion so far on this bug has focused on discussing what
the right
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
So, if you've reviewed this enough to support Bill's claim that
there isn't a consensus because there are substantial objections
raised in the discussions and not addressed, then please say
that. If you have not
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Ian And from a practical point of view, I would prefer to make a
Ian choice that significantly eases collaboration with the GNU
Ian Project to one that slightly eases collaboration with
Ian proprietary software vendors.
josh == josh j...@joshtriplett.org writes:
josh I wouldn't necessarily suggest using this as an argument
josh against the proposed resolution. Instead, I'd recommend
josh making sure that cgmanager is just as harmless under systemd
josh as systemd-shim 8-4 currently is, by
Charles == Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes:
Charles Le Mon, Nov 17, 2014 at 11:58:41AM +0100, Lucas Nussbaum a
Charles écrit :
Specifically, I would like to ask Debian Developers to contribute
(positively) to TC discussions when relevant, in order to help
the
Hi.
Thanks for your hard work.
Over the past years you've put in a lot of work in the TC.
I think you were one of the forces that really pushed the TC to be a
viable decision making body.
You seemed to really care that when issues were brought to the TC, they
were considered and a decision made.
Has the TC asked whether any of the stakeholders want help?
I understand why absent options you may not want to do something.
But is the release-team and the d-i team and other stakeholders happy
with the status quo?
I think the answer is yes. However, you've had a number of situations
recently
Ron == Ron r...@debian.org writes:
Ron I'd be kind of sad if that stopped being possible again for the
Ron final released version of Jessie, and we had to skip yet
Ron another release before being able to do this on Debian again.
Ron It may not be the best and final answer, but
Dimitri == Dimitri John Ledkov x...@debian.org writes:
Dimitri Comparing squeeze and jessies - have things regressed? if
Dimitri yes, how? As far as I expect, the way one uses debian
Dimitri source packaging to produce cross toolchains has not
Dimitri changed, nor has been
Thanks.
I found this post of your to be really thought-provoking and useful and
an example of the sort of discourse we should strive to when discussing
these issues.
I think the discussion of switching default inits in the future is
something to particularly consider.
--Sam
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Andreas == Andreas Barth a...@ayous.org writes:
Andreas * Don Armstrong (d...@debian.org) [150317 19:50]:
On Tue, 10 Mar 2015, Don Armstrong wrote:
Given that we have new members, if anyone has a conflict with
that time slot, and would prefer that it was moved, I've
Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Don On Wed, 18 Mar 2015, Sam Hartman wrote:
Two hours later would be a problem for me on Thursdays although
not other days. One hour later is starting to be an issue but I'd
generally be able to make it.
I'm
Andreas == Andreas Barth a...@ayous.org writes:
Andreas * Sam Hartman (hartm...@debian.org) [150311 13:18]:
So, I don't feel that I have the information I need to make an
informed decision on this issue, so I won't be able to cast a
ballot.
Fortunately, it doesn't
Unfortunately, the two times I've tried to reach
https://dudle.inf.tu-dresden.de/ctte_march_meeting/ today, I've never
been able to establish an https connection.
I never complete a TCP handshake.
The only conflicts I have are Wednesdays from 1300-1600 UTC and Thursday
starting at 2100 UTC.
--
I will not be able to vote on this.
First, as I've mentioned I have great respect for Don and look forward
to working with him as chair.
I find though that if further discussion were on the ballot, it would be
my top ranked choice, exactly because I don't know what kind of chair we
need, because
A couple of weeks ago I noticed mail to d-d-a talking about sprints at
debconf.
I'm wondering whether we want to try and spend a day at debconf or
debcamp exploring how we want to work together, how we want to resolve
issues, working on internal procedure, getting to know each other, that
sort of
Hi.
I'm sorry it has taken a while to write back to you. I asked how the TC
could help and was confused when I read your message. I provided a
couple of options how we might be able to help and you neither selected
one of my options nor provided your own. So, I wasn't sure what you
were
Steve, in one of the TC meetings last year, you made the claim that the
policy process was not a rough consensus process.
I recently read process.txt.gz from the debian-policy package. That
document (admittedly dated after #741573 was submitted) claims the
opposite.
I don't know what the
hi, thanks for an excellent mail.
I've read it and agree with your analysis. To the best of my
understanding you were elaborating on what I wrote, not disagreeing with
it.
--Sam
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Having reviewed the policy team's process.txt document and having
reviewed Charles's comments, I'm much less sanguine when I think about
the approach for resolving the menu system discussion that we discussed
last Thursday.
Keith may well have an approach that improves over both the status
Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Don ===BEGIN
Don The Technical Committee recommends that Sam Hartman (hartmans)
Don be appointed by the Debian Project Leader to the Technical
Don Committee.
Don A: Recommend to Appoint Sam Hartman (hartmans) B: Further
Don
Hi.
When I submitted my application to be considered as a TC member, it was
with excitement, hoping to work together with great folks to learn from
the strengths and weaknesses of past TC work. From the discussions I
saw there seemed to be agreement both that there was really great
technical
Tollef == Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
Tollef Consensus are at least two things: «Are everybody
Tollef ok/happy/ecstatic about this?», and «Are somebody unable to
Tollef live with this resolution». Those are different things, and
Tollef I don't think we're entirely
Adam == Adam D Barratt a...@adam-barratt.org.uk writes:
Adam Hi, Making no comment on the remainder of the mail:
Adam On 2015-03-05 10:38, Michael Tokarev wrote:
And since I can't do my work, I'm stepping down from being
busybox maintainer, and am kindly asking the release
Tollef == Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
Tollef ]] Sam Hartman
A major advantage of this approach is that it can happen from
within the aptitude project. Christian has the technical
authority to implement this. He's asked for review of the social
authority
Didier == Didier 'OdyX' Raboud o...@debian.org writes:
Didier Given the situation (an unresponsive Daniel, a proposal from
Didier people with powers to push the situation forward), I'd be
Didier more inclined to say yes to Christian, without a formal
Didier resolution.
Given
Folks, I will only be able to make the first part of the meeting because
I need to head to the airport. I'd like to request that we discuss the
menu system bug during a part of the meeting I can attend so I can get
feedback on my comments sent to the bug.
To that end I've pushed a change to the
I just arrived in the UK this morning for a series of meetings, and I
expect it will take one sleep cycle before I'll be awake enough to draft
ballot text, but I'll attempt to do that in the next couple of days.
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Hi.
My meetings in the UK ended up requiring 100% of my mental focus for the
last few days. Lots of fun technical design work and project planning,
but very little time available to actually write up a ballot option.
I expect to catch up on TC business Saturday the 16th.
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Proposed for your consideration and checked into git for your editing:
Background/Rationale (Constitution 6.1(5)):
1. In #750135, the
technical committee was asked by Manuel Fernandez Montecelo who should
be the maintainer of the aptitude projectp. He had been actively committing
until his
Tollef == Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
Tollef My suggestion is basically to say yes to Manuel: Make him
Tollef the maintainer of aptitude and ask the Alioth admins to
Tollef reinstate him as an admin, removing Daniel. Manuel is
Tollef clearly interested in working on
l = M = N g = h = i = j = d = e O z c b = a
pgpoomumf7ONb.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Don, I'll be voting based on my general availability.
I am unavailable Wednesday-Friday of that week because I'm going to a
spiritual retreat, so it's fairly likely I'll miss this meeting.
However, most of those times would generally be good for me and I think
it's more important to pick times
Didier == Didier 'OdyX' Raboud o...@debian.org writes:
Background/Rationale (Constitution 6.1.5):
1. In #750135, the Technical Committee was asked by Manuel
Fernandez Montecelo who should be the maintainer of the Aptitude
project. He had been actively committing until
Tollef == Tollef Fog Heen tfh...@err.no writes:
Tollef I think this is fine and we should vote on this before even
Tollef more time passes. Opinions?
I'll call for a vote on June 15 unless people either seem to believe
earlier is better or I hear objections.
However, between now and
Hi, folks.
I will be at an event in maryland that starts just around the time of
the meeting so I'll be unable to attend.
I hope I've been more clear in my communication about the menu policy
bug. I'd really like to see us call for any objections to the proposal
on debian-policy and amongst
You are copied on this message because you raised objections noted by
the policy editors during the discussion of menu policy or seconded the
proposal in #707851.
The TC is currently evaluating a request to review that proposal and the
process surrounding it.
If you seconded the proposal, I'd
Lisandro == Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer perezme...@gmail.com
writes:
Lisandro Hi Sam! A long time has passed since then and I should re
Lisandro read the full and extensive bug log to assert whatever you
Lisandro want to ask. But I can be sure on one thing: at the time
Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Don On Wed, 27 May 2015, Sam Hartman wrote:
Bdale == Bdale Garbee bd...@gag.com writes:
Bdale I hear you, I just don't have any idea what to do differently
Bdale on this specific issue in response to knowing how you feel
Bdale
Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Don OK. So assuming this is the case, does option B in the draft
Don now represent your view? Or is option A sufficient?
Assuming that the discussion plays out as I suspect, I'd probably vote
a=bzc
If it's clear from the log that we thought
Sam == Sam Hartman hartm...@debian.org writes:
Sam I here-by call for a vote on the following text (option A); the
Sam other option is FD. I will be out much of the next two weeks
Sam so if the vote becomes resolved I'd appreciate it if someone
Sam could step in and announce
Aron == Aron Xu a...@debian.org writes:
Aron I don't hold a view on whether we want lz support in dpkg/dak,
Aron but it could be a pity if we really involve CTTE for such an
Aron issue. To me, it's sorta abusing the escalation process if
Aron every individual developer raise an
I'm fine with this proposal.
I slightly prefer it to my original draft and hope others prefer it
significantly.
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Archive:
Kurt == Kurt Roeckx k...@roeckx.be writes:
Kurt On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 09:19:07PM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
[moving back to the bug, because we're starting to discuss the
issue rather than a TC communications matter.]
Bdale == Bdale Garbee bd...@gag.com writes
Hi.
During the conversation of #741573 last meeting, and while reading the
log, I felt really frustrated and disappointed. I would like to be
heard and understood, and when I read what Bdale and Don are saying, I
don't think that they are connecting with some issues that are really
important to
believe that they didn't have
consensus rather than just jumping to a conclusion.
I don't think we need to vote for that if we have internal rough
consensus, although I'd be fine voting on that if we wish to do so.
However:
Bdale Sam Hartman hartm...@debian.org writes:
Bdale I really think
Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
Don On Sun, 16 Aug 2015, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
What about just adding Keith's proposal to the ballot, and let
the Condorcet magic act?
Don This has sort of been my plan; I just have not had enough spare
Don cycles in the
Don == Don Armstrong d...@debian.org writes:
While we're not overturning anything in the sense of an override
here, I think we owe an explanation for our actions, and I feel
really strongly about that.
Don Ideally the patch and its rationale should stand alone without
Don
Bdale == Bdale Garbee bd...@gag.com writes:
Bdale Sam Hartman hartm...@debian.org writes:
I'm just sying having seen it used once I'd rather decide never
to go there again.
Bdale For what it's worth, I agree.
I'll note that for this to be fair we need to be able to push back
Didier == Didier 'OdyX' Raboud o...@debian.org writes:
Didier Le lundi, 17 août 2015, 14.57:18 j'ai écrit :
Ian wrote a full GR proposal in
20996.60469.968631.307...@chiark.greenend.org.uk (
[636783_supermajority/propose-numberfix] in our git repository
and I've attached
Unless someone objects
I propose that the following text also be included in option b:
Using its power under §6.1.5 to offer advice:
1. The Technical Committee suggests that the maintainers of the
Debian menu package support translating .desktop files of
packages which do not
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Ian Sam Hartman writes (Re: Bug#741573: #741573: Menu Policy and
I think the key area where we differ is that I would give
preference other things being mostly equal to upholding the work
done in debian-policy. As I
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Ian 1. The TC - not the policy process, not the policy editors, and
Ian not the consensus on debian-policy - has the ultimate
Ian responsibility to set technical policy. (Constitution 6.1(1))
Ian So in the TC the
Charles == Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes:
Charles I made efforts to keep the wording mild, but I think that
Charles it was an error.
From your attiude as the lead person behind the Debian Menu, it
is clear that
Charles it has no future. For one decade, you have
of that, though. (Also, I
felt like the proposal was a good path forward, which doesn't make me a
particularly unbiased judge of consensus.)
Sam hartman
Speaking only for myself
pgpXXbUrHHGVF.pgp
Description: PGP signature
I'm an owner of a small company. We had a managers meeting yesterday
and realized that there's a lot of design ideas in my head related to a
number of new projects. If I go to debconf, it's going to significantly
gum up the works in a period where we have significant upcoming
deliverables. So,
Bill == Bill Allombert ballo...@debian.org writes:
Bill On Fri, Jul 17, 2015 at 10:08:04PM +, Sam Hartman wrote:
In March of 2014, Charles Plessy asked the Debian Technical
Committee to review one of the policy editors decisions to revert
changes to how policy talks about
Charles == Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes:
Charles Le Sat, Jul 18, 2015 at 01:56:49PM +, Sam Hartman a
Charles écrit :
Bill == Bill Allombert ballo...@debian.org writes:
Charles Also, the question is not whether the FreeDesktop menu
Charles should be described
Charles == Charles Plessy ple...@debian.org writes:
Charles Le Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 08:05:56AM +, Sam Hartman a
Charles écrit :
Bill, in his role of policy editor said that he believed there
was not a consensus.
Charles Hi Sam,
Charles I think that what you
Josselin == Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org writes:
Josselin Sam Hartman hartm...@debian.org wrote: Bill, in his role
Josselin of policy editor said that he believed there was not a
Josselin consensus. He cited a specific set of messages that he
Josselin believes were
Bill == Bill Allombert ballo...@debian.org writes:
Bill On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 10:34:47AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
You said:
Hi. As a matter of fact finding. Russ's message, which Charles
sites implies to me that Russ was swamped and didn't have time to
do the commit
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Ian Sam Hartman writes (Re: Bug#741573: #741573: Menu Policy and
Ian Consensus):
Having such serious objections that have not been adequately
considered means you don't have rough consensus at least in the
ways I
Ian == Ian Jackson ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk writes:
Hi.
I'd appreciate it if you would look at the restatement at the bottom and
help me make sure I'm understanding the technical implications of the
proposal we're considering.
I think I may be following what Ian's saying.
Ian I
Hi.
Your recent post to Ian is inappropriate and not consistent with the
rules of conduct we've established for our communication.
Multiple members of our community have talked to you about this issue.
Please stop.
owner@bugs and listmaster copied, although I will not request any
specific
Hi.
So, after working with Keith yesterday on his option, I think I have a
much better understanding of what the tradeoffs are.
I'd like to present these to the TC as we're about to vote.
I'm ignoring ballot option C (afirm the status quo) in this.
I'm also treating options A and B as the
Steve == Steve Langasek vor...@debian.org writes:
Steve On Fri, Aug 28, 2015 at 09:13:33AM -0400, Sam Hartman wrote:
If we adopt Keith's proposal without updating policy 9.6--we
retainIs the SHOULD have menu entries for all command line apps,
but move the metadata format
Nikolaus == Nikolaus Rath nikol...@rath.org writes:
Nikolaus On Aug 29 2015, Sam Hartman hartm...@debian.org wrote:
Option D goes further. Option D requires that packages drop
their traditional menu entries if they ship .desktop files.
(That's done on a per-application
Nikolaus == Nikolaus Rath nikol...@rath.org writes:
Nikolaus A. This comes very close to design work which the CTTE
Nikolaus should not be doing. If there's a conflict between two
Nikolaus crappy designs and the CTTE is asked to rule, then you
Nikolaus should pick the less crappy
> "Keith" == Keith Packard writes:
Keith> Do you think the reworded version is easier to understand in
Keith> the context of the overall process? That was my major concern
Keith> here.
I think a bit.
My big question is whether you think we'd still be able to
OK.
I'd really appreciate hearing from anyone now who needs more time before
a CFV.
> "Don" == Don Armstrong writes:
Don> I think attendance at meetings as well as participation in
Don> threads, drafting, and voting is a requirement.
Don> I think that this amounts to between 1-6 hours a month of work;
Don> hopefully towards the low end of
I'd like to have a discussion about what we want from TC members before
we make a call for nominations.
The biggest question I have is how much time do we expect TC members to
have available for the TC.
i think we've been having a lot of trouble that seems like it has a high
probability of being
> "Keith" == Keith Packard writes:
Keith> Thinking about this tonight, I've rewritten option D as AB +
Keith> patch.
Keith> As you can see, this makes packages shipping menu and
Keith> .desktop files for the same application buggy, makes all
Keith>
In preparing this CFV, I have made one change to option D: I replaced
encouage with encourage because I believe that fixes a typo.
I'd like to call for votes on the following resolution:
Whereas:
1. The Debian Policy Manual states (§9.6) that 'The Debian menu
package provides a
>>>>> "Sam" == Sam Hartman <hartm...@debian.org> writes:
Sam> In preparing this CFV, I have made one change to option D: I
Sam> replaced encouage with encourage because I believe that fixes a
Sam> typo.
Sam> I'd like to call for vote
> "Josh" == Josh Triplett writes:
Josh> Assuming that the "often results in FD" holds true, and that
Josh> this doesn't encourage snap judgements, this seems like a very
Josh> good idea to me.
I think that except in very special circumstances coming to
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