discussion, and the document was
getting more and more confused.
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progress along these lines.
Standardisation is a necessarily formal process.
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to concern yourself with the discussion around the format.
If the discussion bores you, delete the emails and stop worrying. If the final
format is useless to you, don't use it.
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and
hard to read. The copyright proposal is simple, and provides consistency.
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line again.
The first line ignores every other reason given by the people wanting DEP 5.
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work. It's not an all or nothing situation.
* [INSERT OTHER COOL IDEAS HERE]
Even if these last points never happen, I will still use it because it's nice to
have a clean, consistent format for this file. It helps me when I am editing,
and it helps me when I am reviewing.
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in standardising it.
Best,
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that makes things hard for you?
Ideally, we can work out a format the maximises the benefit for the everyone.
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On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 01:41:26PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org writes:
Is there some particular thing you think I want that makes things hard
for you?
Well, you could restore the feature that was present in earlier versions
of the draft that allowed
On Thu, Jun 11, 2009 at 06:40:46PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
I think you have to go back most of the way to Sam's original proposal.
Is there any reason a Comment field wouldn't suffice?
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and I may combine the stanzas in to one.
I'm not sure, but I think you can.
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legally relevant.
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to codify best practice in a format that is machine
parseable. If best practice means that we don't list copyright statements in a
legally meaningful way, then so be it. I was asking questions so that I could
understand this particular use case.
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On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 03:57:46PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org writes:
Does Debian only care about listing copyright holders, as opposed to
reproducing legally meaningful copyright statements? If so, why not
just list names here, excluding the word Copyright
On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 12:08:22AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
* List of space-separated pathnames indicating files that have the same
licence and share copyright holders. Question marks indicate any character
and asterisks indicate any string of characters.
+1
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On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 11:14:04PM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
space-and-commas: a, list of, files,that, contain, commas??or, spaces.
What if I have commas, or and commas,,or as two separate files?
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On Mon, Jun 08, 2009 at 04:41:40PM +0200, Giacomo A. Catenazzi wrote:
So IMHO we must prefer understandable rules, like shell quotes, instead
of new rules.
+1
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because the csv module already handles this. Unfortunately,
if I specified as the separator, I would have to quote filenames instead of
escaping any spaces with a reverse solidus.
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think this demonstrates the one weakness of your argument. The kind of
person who would be reading the source format of these files is not your average
Windows user, nor your average Debian user.
One of the ultimate goal is to parse this file and present via a GUI.
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-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.8
Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 11:26:55 +0400
Source: couchdb
Binary: couchdb
Architecture: source i386
Version: 0.9.0-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org
Changed-By: Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org
) and some pointers to configuration
for common MUAs.
+1
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object to is removing the Reply-To header and then
complaining about the consequences of that action.
On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 10:56:02AM +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
On 27 Apr 18:49, Noah Slater wrote:
It's not user error, because I'm just doing what I've learnt to do.
Erm - how's that not user
of person who treats email as an extension of your
long-term memory, Sup is for you.
Hmm, this looks very interesting! Thanks for tip Ben.
Maybe sup will make it easier for me to reply to mailing lists properly! ;)
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On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 11:27:03AM +, Philipp Kern wrote:
On 2009-04-26, Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org wrote:
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 06:03:07PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
FIRST: GO AWAY WITH YOUR STUPID CC'S. I OBVIOUSLY READ THE LIST.
Dude, chill out.
Interestingly you did
to send a follow up. Don't make me think!
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politely remind me. Instead, it fails because I'm human,
lazy, and error prone. And it seems I'm not the only one.
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On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 02:06:01PM +0100, Mark Brown wrote:
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 03:03:10PM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote:
On Montag, 27. April 2009, Noah Slater wrote:
* The Debian lists do not have a Reply-To header,
does someone know why?
http://www.unicom.com/pw/reply
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 04:19:08PM +0200, Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote:
Noah Slater wrote:
Either you avoid Reply-To because it is harmful and accept that you will
get
carbon copies from the commonly implemented group reply function of modern
mail
clients, or you include the harmful
On Mon, Apr 27, 2009 at 04:09:19PM +0100, Brett Parker wrote:
On 27 Apr 15:41, Noah Slater wrote:
You're arguing that a Reply-To header is harmful (not that I am
convinced) and
Think of the occasions when you actually do want to do an offlist reply - it's
not that uncommon - having Reply
use 'r' to reply to mail.
Hmm, interesting!
Unfortunately, I don't use folders so I don't think this will work for me.
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value. Add a Reply-To and this problem goes away.
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that every computer that participates on the Debian mailing lists is upgraded
to respect this policy.
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want your
reply to go to the list.
If you have one, and you remember to use it.
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. This was detailed earlier in this thread.
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a net win if we respect
the intended semantics of Reply-To while simultaneously embracing the
Mail-Followup-To header.
I don't see how you could argue one, without the other. :)
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sending an email to a Debian list. That I continue
to make this mistake in a thread discussing the very same problem should be an
example of how problematic the whole thing is for me, and others like me.
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, not the other way around. Arguing that
people should adjust the way they use their software because it makes more
sense that way is a poor excuse for bad engineering. This is why we write
software, after all. To make things easier for humans, not machines.
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files have been prepared, exactly
like Charles is doing.
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On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 06:03:07PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
FIRST: GO AWAY WITH YOUR STUPID CC'S. I OBVIOUSLY READ THE LIST.
Dude, chill out.
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any copyright statements down
into one File stanza for convenience.
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of everyone who has ever submitted a patch so
those details are completely impossible to add. The main purpose,
AFAICT, is that the main contributors are correctly attributed, nothing
more.
Agreed. This was the outcome of the previous copyright proposal discussion.
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-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 16:32:45 +0100
Source: couchdb
Binary: couchdb
Architecture: source i386
Version: 0.9.0-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org
Changed-By: Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org
of these cases is uncommon enough to be
marginalized for the other seems absurd on the face of it. I'm not even sure
what you're proposing be the outcome of coding to the common case is.
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On Tue, Apr 07, 2009 at 10:00:05AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, Apr 04 2009, Noah Slater wrote:
As a concrete benefit, my nightly cron to check uscan for all my
packages will be able to alert me about the ones pulled from
repository revisions, all I would need to do is add a new
, and run:
debian/rules get-orig-source
This works for all my packages, and is very handy for other people.
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in
‘debian/changelog’.
Yes, I more often find myself wanting to just get the current tarball.
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to alert me about the ones pulled from repository revisions, all I would
need to do is add a new check-version target.
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://example.org/ $DIR
get-revision:
svn co -r $REV http://example.org/ $DIR
As long as you standardised the variables passed, and the location, should work.
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actions, right? Is the
current version the latest one we're interested in, and how can we fetch the
upstream source for the current version. If we let these two actions be scripted
through a standard interface, it should work with any repository.
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the format completely machine-parseable means making allowances for so
many ifs and buts that the copyright files become only readable by
machine.
Of course, this is not true. What a peculiar thing to say.
The format proposal follows debian/control, and is quite simple in structure.
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sound bite. But a spec or a standard's big value comes if
it is fixed to be widely accepted, even if it means that some parts of
the standard are optional.
I hope that you will contribute your opinion when DEP 5 has a draft to review.
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the draft ought to be paying attention to
the feedback being generated now, and create a better draft to start
with.
Of course we are. :)
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, but
considering we've let a proposal stew on a wiki for over a year, have taken some
discussion over to the mailing list and are now working on a DEP, I find it very
confusing that it should be considered that we are somehow abusing the process.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 08:13:54PM +1300, Andrew McMillan wrote:
On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 03:34 +, Noah Slater wrote:
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 08:07:23PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
NEW rejections are even stronger than an RC bug. Apart from questions of
whether that's useful
a long way towards
preventing DFSG problems in future uploads. Preventative measures seem a lot
better than reactionary ones in this regard.
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wording.
Firmly in my mind is the cost/benefit of this extra effort. If we succeed in
integrating debian/copyright checks into lintian, or dpkg and it's front-ends,
it seems reasonable to imagine that this effort would be a good trade-off.
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adopt this approach with the proposal.
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allow lintian checks to be developed, and maybe even automatic
license compatibility checks to be performed.
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the entire
proposal as a good idea gone bad.
Maybe someone else can look at it after Squeeze and raise version 2.0
from the ashes.
It seems we are in violent agreement.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 03:47:39PM +0100, Romain Beauxis wrote:
Le Sunday 22 March 2009 14:45:18 Noah Slater, vous avez écrit :
Could you provide a use case or two to help clarify things? The main
one I see is for an end user to look at a packages copyright file and
say 'yes, I can use
a failure of the format.
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as a whole, right?
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for proper consideration.
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the NOTICE file is more obviously safe.
CouchDB should be doing a 0.9 this week, so I'll take a look. Thanks.
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was not
something I was talking about. Please do not mangle my position like this.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 12:29:37PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org writes:
Having said that, I am thinking that fully documenting the license of
each file provides a handy way to ensure that developers are thoroughly
checking the package for licensing problems
this is complete, the proposed copyright format would sit on top of
that nicely, assuming it is accepted by the community. I want to keep all policy
decisions away from the format proposal.
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in duplicating the INN CONTRIBUTORS file in
debian/copyright.
+1
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inventing your own consistent formatting style.
Maybe that's just my mild OCD speaking though. Heh.
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that don't want to spend an afternoon on this topic.
Am I the cat's mother? I'm not sure which is more rude, replying to emails
faster than other people or criticising someone's behaviour in a public forum.
If you think I reply to emails too fast, please do so in private in the future.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 09:08:54PM +, Noah Slater wrote:
Am I the cat's mother? I'm not sure which is more rude, replying to emails
faster than other people or criticising someone's behaviour in a public forum.
If you think I reply to emails too fast, please do so in private in the
future
of a developer for this?
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, in a similar vein as
debian/control, for whatever information you might have already been using.
This has clear advantages for being able to post-process, check, search, and
navigate copyright information using whatever tools the community decides would
be profitable.
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/copyright, as seen in the source files and AUTHORS list or
equivalent (if any).
Why do you think this work is needed? You must have had some
rationale, since you made up this policy.
Again, to document that they have, in fact, done what they are supposed to.
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thoroughly checked for licensing issues. Because such a check
must involve looking at the headers of each file, and any AUTHORS or similar
file, there appears to be no reason why this should not be written down.
It also provides a nice summary for our users.
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to be thoroughly checked for licensing issues.
As this necessarily involves looking at each file, I don't see why it should be
considered that much extra effort documenting the process.
Ensuring DFSG compatibility is hardly administrative fluff.
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. If the package
lists the copyright as belonging to the FSF, then it belongs to the FSF. If it
does not, then it does not. This is coming from a GNU maintainer who has been
through the process.
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that possible DFSG problems are RC bugs? :/
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, but I'm afraid that this simply
isn't legally true.
For our purposes it is more than sufficient.
If a package lists a person as the copyright holder, we should accept it.
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On Sun, Mar 22, 2009 at 04:31:58AM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le dimanche 22 mars 2009 à 02:58 +, Noah Slater a écrit :
Again, while the documentation of individual licenses may not be policy, it
is
certainly policy for each package to be thoroughly checked for licensing
issues
, obviously, embedded libraries, but we already have to check if
any is added to avoid duplication and build against the system one
whenever possible)
You might not care, but the package users might do.
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to do this anyway, it
makes sense to record that information in debian/copyright. If you maintain a
very large package, then you should *expect* this to take a long time.
If that's too much effort for your, get a co-maintainer or a different package.
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see that the copyright file is primarily useful to end users who may want
a convenient way of browsing the copyright and licence information.
Best,
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be distributing software.
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with this goal. Hence my suggestion that if
a package you are maintaining seems like too much work, perhaps it would make
sense to collaboratively maintain it.
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.
You selectively chose one thing I had written, please don't do that.
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On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 03:14:36PM +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:
Le vendredi 20 mars 2009 à 14:02 +, Noah Slater a écrit :
If we were suggesting some totally arbitrary and time consuming task, then I
could understand your concerns. However, you should be checking each file
as a
part
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 03:35:22PM +0100, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
On Fri, 20 Mar 2009, Noah Slater wrote:
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 02:41:31PM +0100, Mike Hommey wrote:
It behoves us as distributors to check, no matter how hard it is.
If you think that sounds like too much work
I am doing is suggesting that either we throw
out this argument, or fix the policy.
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the copyright proposal, which is only
codifying existing policy.
Best,
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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Lehnardt j...@apache.org
Copyright 2008, Christopher Lenz cml...@apache.org
Copyright 2008, Noah Slater nsla...@apache.org
License: Apache-2.0
On Debian systems the full text of the Apache License (Version 2) can be
found
in the `/usr/share/common-licenses/Apache-2.0' file.
Note
, there should be no reason why you can't express what you
are already doing with the new copyright proposal.
Best,
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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to be a conflation of separate issues. I see the copyright proposal as a
format, not policy, document. If people want to formalise the granularity of our
copyright information, then so be it, but let's do that as a separate effort.
Best,
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
found this, I sent the issue upstream:
http://tinyurl.com/ctargs
And I was fortunate that they did a massive overhaul and a re-release.
Best,
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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On Tue, Feb 24, 2009 at 09:17:35PM +0100, Holger Levsen wrote:
(As Noah Slater pointed out, it's hard to lose a directory on your
own machine...)
you can loose access to your machine...
At which point you may as well call it someone else's machine.
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org
On Mon, Feb 23, 2009 at 01:06:38PM +0100, Bjørn Mork wrote:
Noah Slater nsla...@tumbolia.org writes:
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 05:18:39PM -0800, Asheesh Laroia wrote:
I think that the description explains that the purpose is to find hidden
directories on web servers, presumably either your
On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 05:18:39PM -0800, Asheesh Laroia wrote:
I think that the description explains that the purpose is to find hidden
directories on web servers, presumably either your own or other people's.
Why would you need to find directories on your own server?
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Noah Slater, http
that mail instead of filing a bug.
In defence of the OP, it hardly looks like a Debian-fixable problem.
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Noah Slater, http://tumbolia.org/nslater
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What about providing a test target in debian/rules and hooking into this
automatically with pdebuild. You should be able to run tests from within the
chroot without having to modify your debian/control file.
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