Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-31 Thread Francesco Poli
On Sun, 31 May 2015 13:10:14 -0400 Paul Tagliamonte wrote:

[...]
> They can do it because the license never changed, it was *just*
> distributed under a different set of terms (the GPLv2+ says you can
> distribute it as if it were GPLv3+ and everything is tidy -- it does *not*
> say you can yell "hocus pocus" and the license changes into GPLv3+ and
> can never be turned back.)

But here we are not talking about "GPL v2 or later"; we are talking
about files which (before being modified) were originally under
"LGPL v2 or later"...

And the LGPL v2 says you can yell "hocus pocus" (more or less).
Please see my previous message:
https://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2015/05/msg00045.html



-- 
 http://www.inventati.org/frx/
 There's not a second to spare! To the laboratory!
. Francesco Poli .
 GnuPG key fpr == CA01 1147 9CD2 EFDF FB82  3925 3E1C 27E1 1F69 BFFE


pgpPxlKencabs.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-31 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
On Sun, May 31, 2015 at 11:32:57AM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> I think the problem here is the notion that a file necessarily has
> exactly one licence.

Totally agree.

[snip]

> So it is true that a downstream redistributor who does not change F
> cannot "change the licence", because the only permission needed (in
> copyright law) is that from upstream.  If upstream grant GPLv2+ then
> even if the downstream writes GPLv3+ then everyone can still rely on
> upstream's permission, putting the upstream GPLv2+ notice back.

They can do it because the license never changed, it was *just*
distributed under a different set of terms (the GPLv2+ says you can
distribute it as if it were GPLv3+ and everything is tidy -- it does *not*
say you can yell "hocus pocus" and the license changes into GPLv3+ and
can never be turned back.)

> However, if a downstream redistributor modifies the file, they can
> narrow the set of permissions.  This is because in copyright law, they
> have their own copyright in the modifications.  So if a downstream
> changes GPLv2+ to GPLv3+ _and modifies the file_ then the GPLv2+ is no
> longer applicable.

To the combined / derived work, yes. If the modifications were reverted,
there's no reason the file would be GPLv3+, it'd go back to the original
terms, since you (as *not* the copyright holder) can't relicense the
work.

[snip]

> (So I think Paul is wrong if he thinks, as he seems to, that it is a
> violation of copyright law to change GPLv2+ to GPLv3+ when merely
> redistributing.)

This is again confusing the issue. Let me be clear:

  A) You can *not* relicense a work that you don't hold.
  B) The GPL*+ grants you the right to redistribute under future terms and
 still be complient with the version that its license under.

You can use B to distribute under the GPLv3 if you would like, but *you
do not relicense the work*. It's still GPLv2.

You can take GPLv2+ and *distribute* it as if it was GPLv3, but you *do
not relicense* the work.

Given that A is a thing, you have no way to do that anyway.

> But to do so would be rude and we should try not to do it.  So I think
> that where practical if we can determine that a package is dual
> (or triple) licenced, we should document all the permissions - that
> is, all the licences.

I think that's sensable, I have a hard time believing upstreams are so
good, honestly, we should be thankful to the author of this package
we're talking about, since they took the time to document it was derived
(hopefully modified!) from a LGPL work.

> It appears that in this particular case package has been modified by
> the GPLv3+-preferring downstream.  In that case there is no permission
> to distribute under GPLv2+ any more.

Totally agree.

> I don't think it is sensible to insist that the Debian maintainer do a
> lot of work to try to discover whether some files in the package have
> /not/ been modified by the GPLv3+-preferring author (or by other
> people who contributed to that author's version and never saw a
> GPLv2+ licence).

I agree we should trust upstream in this case, but I'm generally
interested. I don't like the idea people think they can just magically
relicense files rather then use the right to redistribute.

> That work is not necessary in copyright law, and we aren't really
> doing the Free Software world much of a service by performing it - at
> least, once we have decided to package the GPLv3+ fork at all.
> 
> If someone wants to try to strip the GPLv3+ parts out of the fork
> then that's fine of course, but I don't think we should insist that
> the Debian maintainer do the necessary archaeology.

I don't think that's needed; I love the GPLv3 and I don't see a problem
here :)

I also wouldn't have the maintainer add it to the copyright file, but
there is a lot of misunderstanding on this thread on the mechanism by
which the GPLv3 works.

> > The proof is on you -- where does it say you can relicense someone
> > else's copyrighted work / IP? Not *redistribute*, *relicense*.
> 
> The answer to this question is very clear.  The proof is in the
> original licensing notice:
> 
>   either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later
>   version.
> 
> The downstream distributor may choose a later version (3, say, or "any
> version 3 or later) and comply with its terms.

No, wait  Ian :)

Full quote:

| This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
| it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
| the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
| (at your option) any later version.

You may *redistribute* or *modify*. You may not *relicense*.

I can't come along to gettext and say "it's now GPLv3+", because it will
forever be GPLv2+ until the copyright holder(s) relicense. I can merely
redistribute it under the terms of the GPLv3+, until I modify it, where
I can change the terms of the derived work, but *not* the original
works.

If I revert my changes, there's no r

Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-31 Thread Ian Jackson
Paul Tagliamonte writes ("Re: GPL "+" question"):
> They *can* since the work as modified *can* be distributed under the
> terms of the GPLv3+, *without* changing the original work's license, but
> the *file* can be distributed as GPLv3+, since that's the minimum
> license needed to comply with all parts.

I think the problem here is the notion that a file necessarily has
exactly one licence.

The only actually accurate statements one can make are "there is [not]
permission to distribute file F under licence L".


If you want to know "what licence does a file have" what you really
ean is "for what set of licences L1,L2,L3... is it the case that there
is permission to distribute".

So it is true that a downstream redistributor who does not change F
cannot "change the licence", because the only permission needed (in
copyright law) is that from upstream.  If upstream grant GPLv2+ then
even if the downstream writes GPLv3+ then everyone can still rely on
upstream's permission, putting the upstream GPLv2+ notice back.

However, if a downstream redistributor modifies the file, they can
narrow the set of permissions.  This is because in copyright law, they
have their own copyright in the modifications.  So if a downstream
changes GPLv2+ to GPLv3+ _and modifies the file_ then the GPLv2+ is no
longer applicable.


For Debian, there is the question of what to put in debian/copyright.

Obviously we need to put in debian/copyright some applicable Ln (that
is, an Ln which applies to all the files F).

If there is permission to distribute under L1,L2,... then it would be
legitimate in a copyright law sense to write in debian/copyright only
L1.  To do so would not be a breach of the copyright, because we would
be acting in accordance with L1.

(So I think Paul is wrong if he thinks, as he seems to, that it is a
violation of copyright law to change GPLv2+ to GPLv3+ when merely
redistributing.)

But to do so would be rude and we should try not to do it.  So I think
that where practical if we can determine that a package is dual
(or triple) licenced, we should document all the permissions - that
is, all the licences.


It appears that in this particular case package has been modified by
the GPLv3+-preferring downstream.  In that case there is no permission
to distribute under GPLv2+ any more.

I don't think it is sensible to insist that the Debian maintainer do a
lot of work to try to discover whether some files in the package have
/not/ been modified by the GPLv3+-preferring author (or by other
people who contributed to that author's version and never saw a
GPLv2+ licence).

That work is not necessary in copyright law, and we aren't really
doing the Free Software world much of a service by performing it - at
least, once we have decided to package the GPLv3+ fork at all.

If someone wants to try to strip the GPLv3+ parts out of the fork
then that's fine of course, but I don't think we should insist that
the Debian maintainer do the necessary archaeology.


> The proof is on you -- where does it say you can relicense someone
> else's copyrighted work / IP? Not *redistribute*, *relicense*.

The answer to this question is very clear.  The proof is in the
original licensing notice:

  either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later
  version.

The downstream distributor may choose a later version (3, say, or "any
version 3 or later) and comply with its terms.

Thanks,
Ian.


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/21866.58201.37278.496...@chiark.greenend.org.uk



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-30 Thread Riley Baird
> > I'm not sure that you can grant the right of enforcing the license to
> > someone else,
> I suspect that for legal litigation you may need to represent the 
> copyright owner.

That's what I meant; I probably didn't word it clearly, though.


pgp4w78cg1zYD.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-30 Thread Ángel González

On 31/05/15 00:10, Riley Baird wrote:

On Sat, 30 May 2015 23:24:53 +0200
Ángel González  wrote:

IMHO you would be the one responsible for enforcing the license...

Exactly. So, if a work is originally licensed under GPL-2+ and Person A
makes a copy and gives it to Person B under GPL-3. Now consider that
Person B gives a copy to Person C under GPL-2+. Person A can't enforce
the original copyright holder's copyrights. I find it difficult to
believe that the original copyright holder would enforce Person A's
license.


unless you also
granted (delegated?) the right of enforcing the work license to someone
else.

I'm not sure that you can grant the right of enforcing the license to
someone else,

Copyright collecting societies do so.


otherwise why wouldn't copyleft authors just let
give everyone the right to enforce their license?
I suspect that for legal litigation you may need to represent the 
copyright owner.
Also note that if authors gave that power to everyone, anyone attempting 
to exercise that
right would still need the author in order to prove that the author 
didn't also provide a

propietary license to the infringer,¹ so it wouldn't be that useful.
Usually, copyright collecting societies are the only ones entitled to 
license that author's
work, and their position when detecting infringement is thus quite 
different.



¹ unless they also gave up the right to ever license it under different 
terms, perhaps. A

very bad idea IMHO.


--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/556a50c1.2070...@gmail.com



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-30 Thread Riley Baird
On Sat, 30 May 2015 23:24:53 +0200
Ángel González  wrote:
> On 30/05/15 03:30, Riley Baird wrote:
>  Only the copyright holder can change what a *work* is licensed as.
> >> Unless the copyright holder grants the permission to do so, I would
> >> say...
> > Let's say I hold copyright on a work, and I grant someone else
> > permission to change the license of a work. Who would enforce the
> > second license? Only a copyright holder can enforce their copyrights.
> IMHO you would be the one responsible for enforcing the license...

Exactly. So, if a work is originally licensed under GPL-2+ and Person A
makes a copy and gives it to Person B under GPL-3. Now consider that
Person B gives a copy to Person C under GPL-2+. Person A can't enforce
the original copyright holder's copyrights. I find it difficult to
believe that the original copyright holder would enforce Person A's
license.

> unless you also
> granted (delegated?) the right of enforcing the work license to someone 
> else.

I'm not sure that you can grant the right of enforcing the license to
someone else, otherwise why wouldn't copyleft authors just let
give everyone the right to enforce their license?


pgp0cuqkC5oY0.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-30 Thread Ángel González

On 30/05/15 03:30, Riley Baird wrote:

Only the copyright holder can change what a *work* is licensed as.

Unless the copyright holder grants the permission to do so, I would
say...

Let's say I hold copyright on a work, and I grant someone else
permission to change the license of a work. Who would enforce the
second license? Only a copyright holder can enforce their copyrights.
IMHO you would be the one responsible for enforcing the license... 
unless you also
granted (delegated?) the right of enforcing the work license to someone 
else.



--
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/556a2aa5.90...@gmail.com



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-30 Thread Ole Streicher
Charles Plessy  writes:
> If it were me, I would give the benefit of the doubt to the upstream
> author of missfits, and trust him that if he added a GPLv3+ header, it
> is because he modified the files, as he says in the README.

When I adopted the first package from this author (sextractor), I asked
him per E-mail about this subdirectory -- more since a newer version of
the library in question (wcslib) is already in Debian, and I wanted to
avoid using a convienience copy. He convinced me then that his version
is slightly changed and therefore not just linkable with the original.

I didn't ask for his other packages (missfits, scamp, swarp, psfex; some
of them are already in Debian, others are now in NEW), but since they
all follow the same structure, I am quite sure that his arguments are
valid there as well.

> In that case, the license to be indicated in debian/copyright should
> be GPLv3+.

I re-uploaded the package with a (hopefully) clarifying comment in
debian/copyright; let's see how he decides now.

Best regards

Ole


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87h9quebju@debian.org



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Riley Baird
> > > Only the copyright holder can change what a *work* is licensed as.
> 
> Unless the copyright holder grants the permission to do so, I would
> say...

Let's say I hold copyright on a work, and I grant someone else
permission to change the license of a work. Who would enforce the
second license? Only a copyright holder can enforce their copyrights.


pgpEAoZd5rFUD.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Charles Plessy
Le Fri, May 29, 2015 at 09:32:12AM +0200, Ole Streicher a écrit :
> 
> I just had a discussion with an ftp-master who rejected one of my
> packages. The package in question is "missfits". It contains a
> directory, src/wcs/ with files that were originally released by Mark
> Calabretta under LGPL-2+, but changed by the upstream author (Emmanuel
> Bertin) and released in the package under GPL-3+.
> 
> debian/copyright currently mentions only GPL-3+ for the whole package.
> 
> The ftp-master now asked me to add GPL-2+ for these files to
> debian/copyright. But I think that this would be wrong, since the files
> under src/wcs are not distributable under GPL-2+ (because they contain
> GPL-3+ code from Emmanuel Bertin).
> 
> Do I miss an important point here?

Hi Ole,

I am also surprised by this request (isn't there a typo with a "L" missing in
front of "GPL-2+" ?).

The README in src/wcs contains:

  > This directory contains a modified version of the WCSlib V2.2 library by 
Mark
  > Calabretta , released under the GNU Lesser General
  > Public License.  The original version was downloaded from
  > ftp://ftp.cv.nrao.edu/fits/src/wcs/.  See
  > http://www.atnf.csiro.au/people/mcalabre/WCS/wcslib for more details.

Here, the author of missfits says that he modified the copy of the WCSlib that
he redistributes with the sources of missfits.

In addition, he added a GPLv3+ header on top of each file.

Unfortunately, WCSlib version 2.2 is so old that I could not find a pristine
copy on the Internet to confirm that each file was really modified.

If it were me, I would give the benefit of the doubt to the upstream author of
missfits, and trust him that if he added a GPLv3+ header, it is because he
modified the files, as he says in the README.

In that case, the license to be indicated in debian/copyright should be GPLv3+.

Have a nice week-end,

Charles

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20150529231946.gd4...@falafel.plessy.net



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Francesco Poli
On Fri, 29 May 2015 14:50:39 +0200 Ole Streicher wrote:

> Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
[...]
> > Only the copyright holder can change what a *work* is licensed as.

Unless the copyright holder grants the permission to do so, I would
say...

[...]
> 
> If the original license allows, then anyone can redistribute the files
> under a different license. And (L)GPL has a paragraph that allows this
> under certain conditions (namely LGPL -> GPL, and version upgrades).

The GNU LGPL v2 (which I understand is the original license for the
original files, before they were modified and released under the terms
of the GNU GPL v3 or later) states, in section 3:

|3. You may opt to apply the terms of the ordinary GNU General Public
|  License instead of this License to a given copy of the Library.  To do
|  this, you must alter all the notices that refer to this License, so
|  that they refer to the ordinary GNU General Public License, version 2,
|  instead of to this License.  (If a newer version than version 2 of the
|  ordinary GNU General Public License has appeared, then you can specify
|  that version instead if you wish.)  Do not make any other change in
|  these notices.
|
|Once this change is made in a given copy, it is irreversible for
|  that copy, so the ordinary GNU General Public License applies to all
|  subsequent copies and derivative works made from that copy.
| 
|This option is useful when you wish to copy part of the code of
|  the Library into a program that is not a library.

So it seems to me that it is indeed possible to redistribute those
files under the terms of the GNU GPL v3 or later, by altering the
permission notices so that they refer to the GPL-3+.
And this operation is irreversible. 

Hence, I cannot understand why the FTP masters asked you to add
"GPL-2+ for these files to debian/copyright", when "GPL-2+" seems to
have never described the licensing status for those files, before or
after their adaptation into the "missfits" package...

I hope this helps to shed some light on this garbled issue.
Bye.


-- 
 http://www.inventati.org/frx/
 There's not a second to spare! To the laboratory!
. Francesco Poli .
 GnuPG key fpr == CA01 1147 9CD2 EFDF FB82  3925 3E1C 27E1 1F69 BFFE


pgpdIKtqjc06D.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Simon McVittie
On 29/05/15 16:30, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Miriam Ruiz  writes:
>> So in my opinion, if you modify a code which was released under GPL2+
>> and you license your modifications as GPL3+, the resulting work has to
>> also be GPL, and the terms or conditions that apply are those of the
>> version 3 of the lincense, or later, but you're not effectively
>> relicensing the code that is not yours, so that part would be still
>> licensed as GPL2+ by the author and copyright holder.
> 
> I may give to others the permission to use the modified/redistributed
> file under GPL-3+. This permission is what is usually called "License".
> 
> In that sense, the license is changed.

I think you're mixing up the license of a work, and the effective
license of a combined work.

A work is an abstract legal thing, dating back to when the most advanced
computer available was a monk with an abacus.

A file is a computing concept. The law says nothing about files. If
various people have contributed bits of a file, my understanding is that
the file is a combined work consisting of individual works by those people.

To distribute a file that contains one or more works in a way that
copyright would not normally allow without the result being illegal, you
must get permission from all the copyright holders. A copyright license
is just pre-emptive permission from a copyright holder - "if you follow
these conditions, the answer is yes" - so the most common way to get
permission from all the copyright holders is to comply with all the
conditions imposed by all the copyright holders, simultaneously. For
instance, if the file combines a GPL-2+ work with a GPL-3+ work, you
must simultaneously comply with both

 GPL-2 or GPL-3 or some future version

and

 GPL-3 or some future version

In this simple case, the second condition implies the first, so you
might use a shorthand: "this is effectively the same as the whole thing
being GPL-3+". However, this is just a shorthand, and the real status is
somewhat more complicated.

However, the general case is not this simple:

> http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-1456.1.26/bsd/sys/msg.h
> 
> This is a file that is initially copyrighted by Daniel Boulet (and
> licensed under BSD-2-Clause). However, without any other change, it also
> has the header
> 
> | Copyright (c) 2000-2007 Apple Inc. All rights reserved.
> | [...]
> | This file contains Original Code and/or Modifications of Original Code
> | as defined in and that are subject to the Apple Public Source License
> | Version 2.0 (the 'License'). You may not use this file except [...]

So what you have here is (claimed to be) a file containing a combination
of a work by Daniel Boulet, licensed under BSD-2-Clause, and a work by
Apple, licensed under APSL-2.0.

To distribute that file, assuming that the claim is true, you must
simultaneously comply with the conditions of the BSD-2-Clause license
(because if you don't, you are infringing Daniel Boulet's copyright),
and with the conditions of the APSL-2.0 (because if you don't, you are
infringing Apple's copyright).

If Apple have not, in fact, modified the file (except to add their
license boilerplate, which might not be sufficiently creative to be
considered to be a copyrightable work), then their assertion that they
hold copyright on the file might not actually be true. If that is the
case, then it might be possible (at your own legal risk) to disregard
that part, then defend yourself on that basis if they sue you. I
wouldn't want to try it myself, because Apple's lawyers are more
expensive than I can afford; and there's no real point anyway, because
you can presumably just get Daniel Boulet's original version of the file
from FreeBSD (?) and avoid the whole issue.

If the two licenses are contradictory (one says you must do something
and the other says you must not, e.g. GPL-2 and GPL-3, or GPL and
OpenSSL) then the combined work is non-distributable. I suspect these
two licenses are not contradictory, though - the BSD-2-clause license
doesn't require much.

> Would you accept such a file in Debian? It is clearly not BSD-licensed,
> even if an unchanged BSD-licensed version exists.

If we can exercise the rights demanded by the DFSG while simultaneously
complying with both the applicable licenses, then the work is Free.

I don't know the precise status of the APSL-2.0 (neither do I
particularly want to), but if the two licenses were a pair that I know
to be Free and non-contradictory (e.g. BSD-2-clause and GPL), then the
ftpmasters would (and frequently do) accept files like that in Debian.

S


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/55689e39.5020...@debian.org



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul R. Tagliamonte
> Or a CLA. Or breaking copyright law. Or modified the work and distribute
> it under a superset of the old terms. Or or or :)

For the record; I don't believe Apple is breaking copyright law, and I
didn't mean to imply that :)


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/CAO6P2QQOZvg4eP2Rrcbf2XRwVZY_c-bDhRaSWVE-+g=mfp-...@mail.gmail.com



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 05:43:21PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
> > I don't know any jurisdiction where I can take a work of yours and now
> > claim I have the rights to it under a different license.
> 
> Apple did, as I have shown. I think they have good lawyers.

Or a CLA. Or breaking copyright law. Or modified the work and distribute
it under a superset of the old terms. Or or or :)

(FWIW, BSD-alikes deal perfectly fine with further restrictions so long
 as their terms are met; GPL does not.)

> Best
> 
> Ole

For further clarification, I'd suggest asking the FSF about the
differences in relicensing vs redistributing under the GPL/LGPL.

Cheers,
  Paul


-- 
#define sizeof(x) rand()

:wq


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Ole Streicher
Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
> I don't know any jurisdiction where I can take a work of yours and now
> claim I have the rights to it under a different license.

Apple did, as I have shown. I think they have good lawyers.

Best

Ole


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87lhg7e6ee@debian.org



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
Please end this thread, it's getting nuts. Ask the FSF if you're still unclear.

Thanks,
  Paul

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 11:41 AM, Paul Tagliamonte  wrote:
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 05:11:12PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
>> Again: please provide a reference for this. The copyright holder has
>> surely the initial right to license his work, but I don't see a reason
>> why he can't transfer this.
>
> Via copyright asignment, not licensing, unless the license includes a
> copyright asignment to an entity.
>
>> It is also wrong for the "changed" case that we have: If only the
>> copyright holder (Mark Calabretta) had the right to change the license,
>> then the files in question could not have been modified and distributed
>> under the GPL-3+ license by the upstream author (Emmanuel Bertin) --
>
> They *can* since the work as modified *can* be distributed under the
> terms of the GPLv3+, *without* changing the original work's license, but
> the *file* can be distributed as GPLv3+, since that's the minimum
> license needed to comply with all parts.
>
>> since even the modified files are still copyrighted by Mark, so the
>> Emmanuel alone could not change their license. This is, however, against
>> the idea of the "+" in the GPL versions.
>
> No, it's really not.
>
>> Therefore, please show a proof that only the copyright holder can change
>> the license.
>
> Wat? Copyright statute? What jurisdiction? If you want to fight this, I
> suggest you get a lawyer, I don't know any jurisdiction where I can take
> a work of yours and now claim I have the rights to it under a different
> license.
>
>
> The proof is on you -- where does it say you can relicense someone
> else's copyrighted work / IP? Not *redistribute*, *relicense*.
>
>
> Cheers,
>   Paul
>
> --
>  .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte   |   Proud Debian Developer
> : :'  : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
> `. `'`  http://people.debian.org/~paultag
>  `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt



-- 
:wq


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/cao6p2qqdbfbxp-w4amfwn0q0n_reh4zs+aqwygggevfzfs+...@mail.gmail.com



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Ole Streicher
Miriam Ruiz  writes:
> So in my opinion, if you modify a code which was released under GPL2+
> and you license your modifications as GPL3+, the resulting work has to
> also be GPL, and the terms or conditions that apply are those of the
> version 3 of the lincense, or later, but you're not effectively
> relicensing the code that is not yours, so that part would be still
> licensed as GPL2+ by the author and copyright holder.

I may give to others the permission to use the modified/redistributed
file under GPL-3+. This permission is what is usually called "License".

In that sense, the license is changed.

> So if you later removed the part of code that was covered by a
> different license, the resulting code would be still under the
> original license,

The license is usually granted to a file as a whole, not to specific
lines. If got got a changed file from me, and you revert my changes,
then you are still bound to the conditions that we agreed about when you
got the file -- these conditions are the "license". If we agreed on
GPL-3, then you are bound to GPL-3.

> because you were never the copyright holder, and you never had
> permission to relicense it. I seriously doubt that any judge would
> rule otherwise.

Just again this example:

http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-1456.1.26/bsd/sys/msg.h

This is a file that is initially copyrighted by Daniel Boulet (and
licensed under BSD-2-Clause). However, without any other change, it also
has the header

| Copyright (c) 2000-2007 Apple Inc. All rights reserved.
| [...]
| This file contains Original Code and/or Modifications of Original Code
| as defined in and that are subject to the Apple Public Source License
| Version 2.0 (the 'License'). You may not use this file except [...]

So, Apple puts another license to this file, probably without having the
permission of Daniel Boulet.

Would you accept such a file in Debian? It is clearly not BSD-licensed,
even if an unchanged BSD-licensed version exists.

When trusting the Apple Lawyers a bit, then this contradicts your
argumentation.

Best regards

Ole


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87pp5je701@debian.org



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 05:11:12PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Again: please provide a reference for this. The copyright holder has
> surely the initial right to license his work, but I don't see a reason
> why he can't transfer this.

Via copyright asignment, not licensing, unless the license includes a
copyright asignment to an entity.

> It is also wrong for the "changed" case that we have: If only the
> copyright holder (Mark Calabretta) had the right to change the license,
> then the files in question could not have been modified and distributed
> under the GPL-3+ license by the upstream author (Emmanuel Bertin) --

They *can* since the work as modified *can* be distributed under the
terms of the GPLv3+, *without* changing the original work's license, but
the *file* can be distributed as GPLv3+, since that's the minimum
license needed to comply with all parts.

> since even the modified files are still copyrighted by Mark, so the
> Emmanuel alone could not change their license. This is, however, against
> the idea of the "+" in the GPL versions.

No, it's really not.

> Therefore, please show a proof that only the copyright holder can change
> the license.

Wat? Copyright statute? What jurisdiction? If you want to fight this, I
suggest you get a lawyer, I don't know any jurisdiction where I can take
a work of yours and now claim I have the rights to it under a different
license.


The proof is on you -- where does it say you can relicense someone
else's copyrighted work / IP? Not *redistribute*, *relicense*.


Cheers,
  Paul

-- 
 .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte   |   Proud Debian Developer
: :'  : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
`. `'`  http://people.debian.org/~paultag
 `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Ole Streicher
Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
> No, you may redistribute it under different terms, *not* relicense. You may
> *use* GPLv2+ as GPLv3+, *BUT* the original work is *STILL* GPLv2+, since
> you can't relicense works.

Sorry, but I still think "release under the terms of the General Public
License v3+" means that the file has the license GPLv3+.

> To relicense implies you hold copyright, since only the copyright
> holder can license their works, even copylefted works.

Again: please provide a reference for this. The copyright holder has
surely the initial right to license his work, but I don't see a reason
why he can't transfer this.

It is also wrong for the "changed" case that we have: If only the
copyright holder (Mark Calabretta) had the right to change the license,
then the files in question could not have been modified and distributed
under the GPL-3+ license by the upstream author (Emmanuel Bertin) --
since even the modified files are still copyrighted by Mark, so the
Emmanuel alone could not change their license. This is, however, against
the idea of the "+" in the GPL versions.

Therefore, please show a proof that only the copyright holder can change
the license.

Best regards

Ole


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87twuve7vz@debian.org



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Miriam Ruiz
2015-05-29 16:06 GMT+02:00 Ole Streicher :
> Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
>> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 03:09:34PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
>>> Same for me. However: the (L)GPL allows even an unmodified
>>> redistribution under a later license.
>> This is key -- redistribution. It doesn't change the license.
>
> It does. Just look into the license (resp. the header, for simplicity):
>
> | you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU
> | General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation;
> | either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
>
> So, redistribution may change the license.

It is indeed quite a grey area, and quite confusing, in my opinion.
According with the (simple but enough for my purposes) definition in
Wikipedia ("Copyright is a form of intellectual property, applicable
to any expressed representation of a creative work. It is often shared
among multiple authors, each of whom holds a set of rights to use or
license the work, and who are commonly referred to as rightsholders.
These rights frequently include reproduction, control over derivative
works, distribution, public performance, and "moral rights" such as
attribution.") [1], it is the author[s] the one[s] who has the rights
to license the work.

GPL2 [2] says: "This License applies to any program or other work
which contains a notice placed by the copyright holder saying it may
be distributed under the terms of this General Public License. The
"Program", below, refers to any such program or work, and a "work
based on the Program" means either the Program or any derivative work
under copyright law: that is to say, a work containing the Program or
a portion of it, either verbatim or with modifications and/or
translated into another language.", so the unmodified program is
explicitly defined by the license as a "work based on the Program". It
also says that "Activities other than copying, distribution and
modification are not covered by this License; they are outside its
scope", so the license does explicitly not apply to relicensing. You
can't relicense other person's work released under GPL2.

What the license says is that "You must cause any work that you
distribute or publish, that in whole or in part contains or is derived
from the Program or any part thereof, to be licensed as a whole at no
charge to all third parties under the terms of this License". It is
also said that "If the Program specifies a version number of this
License which applies to it and "any later version", you have the
option of following the terms and conditions either of that version or
of any later version published by the Free Software Foundation. If the
Program does not specify a version number of this License, you may
choose any version ever published by the Free Software Foundation."

So in my opinion, if you modify a code which was released under GPL2+
and you license your modifications as GPL3+, the resulting work has to
also be GPL, and the terms or conditions that apply are those of the
version 3 of the lincense, or later, but you're not effectively
relicensing the code that is not yours, so that part would be still
licensed as GPL2+ by the author and copyright holder. So if you later
removed the part of code that was covered by a different license, the
resulting code would be still under the original license, because you
were never the copyright holder, and you never had permission to
relicense it. I seriously doubt that any judge would rule otherwise.

That's just my two cents.

Greetings,
Miry

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright
[2] http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-2.0.html


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: 
https://lists.debian.org/CAFotxVMyvYNxbg+asOJHDNNMopMVfLVeEeKW4=cazhoedvr...@mail.gmail.com



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 04:06:52PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
> > On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 03:09:34PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> >> Same for me. However: the (L)GPL allows even an unmodified
> >> redistribution under a later license.
> > This is key -- redistribution. It doesn't change the license.
> 
> It does. Just look into the license (resp. the header, for simplicity):

No, it doesn't.

|   Each version is given a distinguishing version number. If the
| Library as you received it specifies that a certain numbered version
| of the GNU Lesser General Public License "or any later version"
| applies to it, you have the option of following the terms and
| conditions either of that published version or of any later version
| published by the Free Software Foundation.

Note this says you have the option of following the terms and conditions of
the version noted, *or* any later version, *not* that you relicense, you can
just follow different terms.

This means you can redistribute under the terms of whatever, but not relicense.

To relicense implies you hold copyright, since only the copyright holder
can license their works, even copylefted works.

> | you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU
> | General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation;
> | either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.
> 
> So, redistribution may change the license.

No, you may redistribute it under different terms, *not* relicense. You may
*use* GPLv2+ as GPLv3+, *BUT* the original work is *STILL* GPLv2+, since
you can't relicense works.

To relicense implies you hold copyright, since only the copyright holder
can license their works, even copylefted works.



Snipping the rest, this seems to be your major point of confusion.

Cheers,
  Paul


-- 
 .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte   |   Proud Debian Developer
: :'  : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
`. `'`  http://people.debian.org/~paultag
 `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Ole Streicher
Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 03:09:34PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
>> Same for me. However: the (L)GPL allows even an unmodified
>> redistribution under a later license.
> This is key -- redistribution. It doesn't change the license.

It does. Just look into the license (resp. the header, for simplicity):

| you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU
| General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation;
| either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later version.

So, redistribution may change the license.

> If I get this file after you say it's GPLv3, it's still LGPLv2.1+ to
> me if I remove it from other works that change the distribution terms

No: We got the files from upstream, and upstream granted us certain
permissions for them (this is what the license actually does). Then we
are bound to this conditions.

We could, ofcourse, get the same files from somewhere else (f.e. from
the original author), and these files then can be used under his
conditions. But this is a different story.

For example, I can give you a file that I got under MIT license, and ask
you not to distribute this file -- then you are bound to this,
independently whether the file is MIT licensed or not. The only thing
you could to is to take the same file from somewhere else and distribute
that.

Or, as an other example (which is closer to Debian): when I packaged
eso-midas, I found that it contained a file "sys/msg.h" that is
originally from NetBSD (with the appropriate license). The specific file
in the upstream tarball, however, was relicensed by Apple with the APSL
(DFSG incompatible) [1]. Even if the file was the same as the free
version, I think that I did it right to remove the file from the tarball
and replace it with the original version.

> I originally thought there was a different question being asked; sorry
> about that (the terms used and not looking at the source didn't help :))

In my case, the files are modified; so I think there is no doubt that
the files are under src/wcs are GPL-3+.

> Unmodified, the license of the works is unchanged, even if we
> *distribute* under a different one.

Could you put a reference on this?

Best regards

Ole

[1] http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/xnu/xnu-1456.1.26/bsd/sys/msg.h


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/ytz617bmq9v@news.ole.ath.cx



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Ole Streicher
Maximilian  writes:
> and this seems to imply that the end user can choose which licence
> suits them.

Not only the end user -- also (in our case) the upstream author. So, he
can choose to redistribute the files under GPL-3+. Being them modified
or not.

> However, if Emmanuel Bertin's code is specifically licensed as GPLv3
> only then it needs to be made clear that this is the case where
> applicable - the fact that this code is GPLv3 only ought not affect
> the fact that the other original files may be GPLv2+.

True. However, the original files are not in the upstream tarball and
therefore do not need to be documented in debian/copyright.

This is even the case if original and redistributed filed differ only by
their license.

Best regards

Ole


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/ytza8wnmsm1@news.ole.ath.cx



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 03:09:34PM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Same for me. However: the (L)GPL allows even an unmodified
> redistribution under a later license.

This is key -- redistribution. It doesn't change the license. If I get
this file after you say it's GPLv3, it's still LGPLv2.1+ to me if I
remove it from other works that change the distribution terms (unless
it's been modified, in which case the licensing of the work on the whole
changes, and yadda yadda yadda)

I originally thought there was a different question being asked; sorry
about that (the terms used and not looking at the source didn't help :))

> It is up to upstream to decide
> whether he chooses the original or a later one. And since I take these
> files from upstream, not from the original author, I am bound to his
> decision, independently whether the files are modified or not.

Unmodified, the license of the works is unchanged, even if we
*distribute* under a different one.

> Therefore, if he chooses to redistribute the files in src/wcs/ under
> GPL-3+, than this is the license for these file, and it should be
> documented as such under debian/copyright. And in this case, the
> redistribution under a GPL-3+ is clear (by adding the according
> statement to the file headers).
> 
> > This doesn't appear to be the case, this looks like LGPLv2.1+ files were
> > modified by someone licensing their changes under GPLv3+, which is
> > legit. I believe treating this file as GPLv3+ is fine / good enough.
> 
> The reason here is not modification (although it makes this case clear),
> but redistribution. Upstream has chosen to redistribute the files under
> GPL-3+, and if we want to use these files, we have to respect this.
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Ole

-- 
 .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte   |   Proud Debian Developer
: :'  : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
`. `'`  http://people.debian.org/~paultag
 `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Ole Streicher
Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 10:41:58PM +1000, Riley Baird wrote:
>> But there are multiple works being combined into the one file. So some
>> parts of the file are GPLv2+ and other parts of the file are GPLv3. The
>> file as a whole can only be distributed under GPLv3.
> I don't see the point in adding LGPL, *IFF* the works *ARE* modified
> and derived works. Not just straight copy-paste. I'd be interested
> in what changes took place, I don't see any marking of it.

Same for me. However: the (L)GPL allows even an unmodified
redistribution under a later license. It is up to upstream to decide
whether he chooses the original or a later one. And since I take these
files from upstream, not from the original author, I am bound to his
decision, independently whether the files are modified or not.

Therefore, if he chooses to redistribute the files in src/wcs/ under
GPL-3+, than this is the license for these file, and it should be
documented as such under debian/copyright. And in this case, the
redistribution under a GPL-3+ is clear (by adding the according
statement to the file headers).

> This doesn't appear to be the case, this looks like LGPLv2.1+ files were
> modified by someone licensing their changes under GPLv3+, which is
> legit. I believe treating this file as GPLv3+ is fine / good enough.

The reason here is not modification (although it makes this case clear),
but redistribution. Upstream has chosen to redistribute the files under
GPL-3+, and if we want to use these files, we have to respect this.

Best regards

Ole


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/ytzeglzmsxd@news.ole.ath.cx



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Maximilian
I'm probably wrong, but the code that was originally GPLv2+ remains licensed 
under the GPLv2 *in addition* to the GPLv3 that the overall package is licensed 
under.

The GPLv2 states that:

'if the Program specifies a version number of this License which applies to it 
and "any later version", you have the option of following the terms and 
conditions *either* of that version *or* of any later version published by the 
Free Software Foundation' (my emphasis)

and this seems to imply that the end user can choose which licence suits them.

However, if Emmanuel Bertin's code is specifically licensed as GPLv3 only then 
it needs to be made clear that this is the case where applicable - the fact 
that this code is GPLv3 only ought not affect the fact that the other original 
files may be GPLv2+.

As said above I'm probably wrong, but at least that's the way I see it!


Regards,
Max

On 29 May 2015 08:32, Ole Streicher  wrote:
>
> Hi, 
>
> I just had a discussion with an ftp-master who rejected one of my 
> packages. The package in question is "missfits". It contains a 
> directory, src/wcs/ with files that were originally released by Mark 
> Calabretta under LGPL-2+, but changed by the upstream author (Emmanuel 
> Bertin) and released in the package under GPL-3+. 
>
> debian/copyright currently mentions only GPL-3+ for the whole package. 
>
> The ftp-master now asked me to add GPL-2+ for these files to 
> debian/copyright. But I think that this would be wrong, since the files 
> under src/wcs are not distributable under GPL-2+ (because they contain 
> GPL-3+ code from Emmanuel Bertin). 
>
> Do I miss an important point here? 
>
> Best regards 
>
> Ole 
>
>
> -- 
> To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org 
> with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org 
> Archive: https://lists.debian.org/ytzmw0nn8jn@news.ole.ath.cx 
>


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Ole Streicher
Paul Tagliamonte  writes:
> On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 09:32:12AM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I just had a discussion with an ftp-master who rejected one of my
>> packages. The package in question is "missfits". It contains a
>> directory, src/wcs/ with files that were originally released by Mark
>> Calabretta under LGPL-2+, but changed by the upstream author (Emmanuel
>> Bertin) and released in the package under GPL-3+.
>
> Upstream authors can't change licensing of any files, under any
> conditions, ever.

Generally spoken, this is wrong (or please point me to the source). For
example, I can give you a file saying "do what you want with it", then
this is the license.

However, "do what you want with it" includes that you can republish the
file as GPL.

For GPL. GPL-2+ contains a statement

| you can redistribute it and/or modify it under the terms of the GNU
| General Public License as published by the Free Software Foundation;
| either version 2 of the License, or (at your option) any later
| version.

which means: the upstream author is allowed to redistribute the (changed
or even unchanged) files under version 2, or also under version 3.

Since he redistributed them under version 3 or later, the license of
these files is GPL-3+. The statement above explicitely allows him to do
so.

> If I say a file is GPLv2+, it is forever GPLv2+

Could you strengthen this with a reference?

> even if it's combined with a GPLv3 work, in that case the *files* are
> still GPLv2+,

The files are modified. The author of the modification applied GPL-3+ to
the changed file. He has the right to do so (see above), and since
original and change are glued together (neither the change nor the
original are separately distributed by upstream), the modified file
cannot be distributed by GPL-2 anymore.

>> debian/copyright currently mentions only GPL-3+ for the whole package.
>
> Yeah, debian/copyright isn't what the binary is distributed under, it's
> what the source licenses are.

I speak about sources.

>> The ftp-master now asked me to add GPL-2+ for these files to
>> debian/copyright. But I think that this would be wrong, since the files
>> under src/wcs are not distributable under GPL-2+ (because they contain
>> GPL-3+ code from Emmanuel Bertin).
>
> Nah, it's wrong because you said LGPLv2+, adding it sounds right.

It is wrong. The files in src/wcs are not distributable under GPL-2,
since they contain changes that are GPL-3+.

> Only the copyright holder can change what a *work* is licensed as.
> Anyone can distribute a derived work inline witht he terms of their
> license. That may also contains other terms as well.

If the original license allows, then anyone can redistribute the files
under a different license. And (L)GPL has a paragraph that allows this
under certain conditions (namely LGPL -> GPL, and version upgrades).

Best regards

Ole


-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Archive: https://lists.debian.org/ytziobbmtsw@news.ole.ath.cx



Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Riley Baird
> > > If I say a file is GPLv2+, it is forever GPLv2+, even if it's combined
> > > with a GPLv3 work, in that case the *files* are still GPLv2+, that other
> > > file is a GPLv3 work, and the *combined work* is distributed under the
> > > terms of the GPLv3, since it satisfies the license of every file in the
> > > combined / derived work.

> > But there are multiple works being combined into the one file. So some
> > parts of the file are GPLv2+ and other parts of the file are GPLv3. The
> > file as a whole can only be distributed under GPLv3.

> That's literally what I said.

You gave the impression that each *file* could only be under one
license, which would be good for the purposes of d/copyright, but isn't
the case.


pgpgjisQHmj6s.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul R. Tagliamonte
That's literally what I said.

d/copyright is for source not binary.
On May 29, 2015 8:42 AM, "Riley Baird" <
bm-2cvqnduybau5do2dfjtrn7zbaj246s4...@bitmessage.ch> wrote:

> > > I just had a discussion with an ftp-master who rejected one of my
> > > packages. The package in question is "missfits". It contains a
> > > directory, src/wcs/ with files that were originally released by Mark
> > > Calabretta under LGPL-2+, but changed by the upstream author (Emmanuel
> > > Bertin) and released in the package under GPL-3+.
> >
> > Upstream authors can't change licensing of any files, under any
> > conditions, ever.
> >
> > If I say a file is GPLv2+, it is forever GPLv2+, even if it's combined
> > with a GPLv3 work, in that case the *files* are still GPLv2+, that other
> > file is a GPLv3 work, and the *combined work* is distributed under the
> > terms of the GPLv3, since it satisfies the license of every file in the
> > combined / derived work.
>
> But there are multiple works being combined into the one file. So some
> parts of the file are GPLv2+ and other parts of the file are GPLv3. The
> file as a whole can only be distributed under GPLv3.
>


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 10:41:58PM +1000, Riley Baird wrote:
> But there are multiple works being combined into the one file. So some
> parts of the file are GPLv2+ and other parts of the file are GPLv3. The
> file as a whole can only be distributed under GPLv3.

the terminology being thrown around was so confusing I had to look at the
source to see what was actually going on here :)


There was *one* work, which *was* LGPL. By an author. They published
it on their own.

This work will forver be LGPL.

The author of this package took that source, and *modified* it
(modified, *not* combined). This modified work is distributed as
GPLv3.

I don't see the point in adding LGPL, *IFF* the works *ARE* modified
and derived works. Not just straight copy-paste. I'd be interested
in what changes took place, I don't see any marking of it.

Defer to the ftp-master who processed it. Ask them for clarification
(feel free to point to this mail)


In the case where two works are combined into one file - this is
functionally compilation (at least not the preferred form of
modification, which means it's *not* source)

This doesn't appear to be the case, this looks like LGPLv2.1+ files were
modified by someone licensing their changes under GPLv3+, which is
legit. I believe treating this file as GPLv3+ is fine / good enough.

Cheers,
  Paul

-- 
 .''`.  Paul Tagliamonte   |   Proud Debian Developer
: :'  : 4096R / 8F04 9AD8 2C92 066C 7352  D28A 7B58 5B30 807C 2A87
`. `'`  http://people.debian.org/~paultag
 `- http://people.debian.org/~paultag/conduct-statement.txt


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Riley Baird
> > I just had a discussion with an ftp-master who rejected one of my
> > packages. The package in question is "missfits". It contains a
> > directory, src/wcs/ with files that were originally released by Mark
> > Calabretta under LGPL-2+, but changed by the upstream author (Emmanuel
> > Bertin) and released in the package under GPL-3+.
> 
> Upstream authors can't change licensing of any files, under any
> conditions, ever.
> 
> If I say a file is GPLv2+, it is forever GPLv2+, even if it's combined
> with a GPLv3 work, in that case the *files* are still GPLv2+, that other
> file is a GPLv3 work, and the *combined work* is distributed under the
> terms of the GPLv3, since it satisfies the license of every file in the
> combined / derived work.

But there are multiple works being combined into the one file. So some
parts of the file are GPLv2+ and other parts of the file are GPLv3. The
file as a whole can only be distributed under GPLv3.


pgp_WyX02xrY3.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Paul Tagliamonte
On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 09:32:12AM +0200, Ole Streicher wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I just had a discussion with an ftp-master who rejected one of my
> packages. The package in question is "missfits". It contains a
> directory, src/wcs/ with files that were originally released by Mark
> Calabretta under LGPL-2+, but changed by the upstream author (Emmanuel
> Bertin) and released in the package under GPL-3+.

Upstream authors can't change licensing of any files, under any
conditions, ever.

If I say a file is GPLv2+, it is forever GPLv2+, even if it's combined
with a GPLv3 work, in that case the *files* are still GPLv2+, that other
file is a GPLv3 work, and the *combined work* is distributed under the
terms of the GPLv3, since it satisfies the license of every file in the
combined / derived work.

> debian/copyright currently mentions only GPL-3+ for the whole package.

Yeah, debian/copyright isn't what the binary is distributed under, it's
what the source licenses are.

If it had MIT/Expat code, you'd still need it in debian/copyright if the
other files are GPLv2+

> The ftp-master now asked me to add GPL-2+ for these files to
> debian/copyright. But I think that this would be wrong, since the files
> under src/wcs are not distributable under GPL-2+ (because they contain
> GPL-3+ code from Emmanuel Bertin).

Nah, it's wrong because you said LGPLv2+, adding it sounds right.

Just because files are being combined in such a way that they're
distributed under different terms than some of the files doesn't mean we
exclude them.

Just like Expat is contained within BSD-3. Or ISC is contained in Expat.
You still need all three, since that's the licese for the file.

Only the copyright holder can change what a *work* is licensed as.
Anyone can distribute a derived work inline witht he terms of their
license. That may also contains other terms as well.

> Do I miss an important point here?
> 
> Best regards
> 
> Ole

Cheers,
 Paul

-- 
:wq


signature.asc
Description: Digital signature


Re: GPL "+" question

2015-05-29 Thread Riley Baird
> I just had a discussion with an ftp-master who rejected one of my
> packages. The package in question is "missfits". It contains a
> directory, src/wcs/ with files that were originally released by Mark
> Calabretta under LGPL-2+, but changed by the upstream author (Emmanuel
> Bertin) and released in the package under GPL-3+.
> 
> debian/copyright currently mentions only GPL-3+ for the whole package.
> 
> The ftp-master now asked me to add GPL-2+ for these files to
> debian/copyright. But I think that this would be wrong, since the files
> under src/wcs are not distributable under GPL-2+ (because they contain
> GPL-3+ code from Emmanuel Bertin).

From the facts you have given, I think that your view is correct.


pgpa6taNbDWeb.pgp
Description: PGP signature


Re: GPL question [Was: Re: cdrtools]

2006-08-11 Thread Daniel Schepler
On Friday 11 August 2006 18:10 pm, Goswin von Brederlow wrote:
> I believe that the totaly interchangable option of specifying
> "-static" or not should not change the free-ness of the source or
> resulting binary. So if you link static and you agree that it is a
> violation that way then you should not be able to get away with it by
> linking dynamically.
>
> The GPL is viral in nature and specificaly made to work across linking
> boundaries. People should not be able to add non-free portitons to the
> source by hiding them in libraries.

I agree, but then "should" and "is" sometimes disagree.

But after thinking about it some more, I believe a dynamically linked binary 
together with the corresponding shared libraries should be considered as a 
distribution method for the complete program that gets assembled in a common 
address space.  Consider for example the case of EvilCo, back before dynamic 
linking was widespread, trying to use a GPL'd library in their non-free 
program.  They try to get around the GPL by distributing their compiled 
program code in a single .o file in a "mere aggregate" along with the GPL 
library .a file, and ask users to link the program themselves.  This is 
obviously bogus; they've just created an alternate means of distribution of 
the resulting binary, and so the binary itself must be distributable under 
the terms of the GPL, which it isn't.  And the case of a dynamically linked 
executable with shared libraries is almost exactly the same as this scenario, 
only it's the system dynamic linker doing the work instead of the user doing 
it manually.

Anyway, as somebody else pointed out, this is off-topic for debian-devel, and 
I apologize.  Please direct any replies to debian-legal (too bad kmail 
doesn't let me set Followup-To afaik).
-- 
Daniel Schepler



-- 
To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Re: GPL question

2000-09-13 Thread Edmund GRIMLEY EVANS
Samuel Hocevar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

>However, if your printing server component is a library and is GPLed,
> then every work linked to it has to be GPLed (or have an even less
> restrictive license).
> 
> > Also, is it relevant that at the moment the whole app. comes on a single CD?
> 
>This is considered "mere aggregation" of software by the GPL, and
> thus the different parts of the work do not need to have the same
> license, even if there is one GPLed app there.

Sorry if this is off-topic, but I'm just checking that I understand
the GPL properly.

As I understand it, it is relevant that the whole application comes on
a single CD, because this is what prevents you from linking a non-GPL
program with a GPL library. If you distribute a CD with a GPL library,
and a separate CD with a non-GPL program as a "separate work", and
someone gets both CDs and links the program with the library, then the
GPL has been obeyed, because:

(i) the GPL library is being distributed according to the GPL;

(ii) the non-GPL program doesn't contain any code from the library and
is therefore not a "derivative work under copyright law";

(iii) the GPL only restricts "copying, distribution and modification";
it does not and could not restrict linking.

So my impression is that the GPL is basically equivalent to the LGPL
modulo (a significant amount of) inconvenience. If this is wrong, I
would like to know why. If it's off-topic, is there another list I
could use?

Edmund



Re: GPL question

2000-09-05 Thread Henning Makholm
Scripsit Mike Cunningham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> I work for a company  which sells a proprietary closed-source call centre
> application. We are looking to write a central printing server
> component which would [hopefully] make use of Ghostscript. I
> understand that we would need to release the printing server under
> the GPL and we have no problem with doing that.

Not necessarily. If your printing saver simply generates postscript
output, and Ghostscript is just one of several configurable options
for what to do with the output, I do not think that the copyright for
Ghostscript migrates to the postscript creator. After all, there do
exists other quite legitimate options for handling a postscript file
than Ghostscript - not least among which is transmitting it to a
genuine PostScript(R) printer.

> Also, is it relevant that at the moment the whole app. comes on a
> single CD?

Not if your application is clearly functional and useful without using
Ghostscript (which would be the case if it offered to pipe its output
directly to the printer).

> I.e. if we added the new print server to the CD then have we just formed a
> "distribution" (as described in the license) and ...aaagh.

I think that would be "mere aggregation" as described at the end of
GPL clause 2.

-- 
Henning Makholm"Vi skal nok ikke begynde at undervise hinanden i
den store regnekunst her, men jeg vil foreslå, at vi fra
 Kulturministeriets side sørger for at fremsende tallene og også
  give en beskrivelse af, hvordan man læser tallene. Tak for i dag!"



Re: GPL question

2000-09-05 Thread Samuel Hocevar
On Tue, Sep 05, 2000, Mike Cunningham wrote:

> I work for a company  which sells a proprietary closed-source call centre
> application. We are looking to write a central printing server component which
> would [hopefully] make use of Ghostscript. I understand that we would need to
> release the printing server under the GPL and we have no problem with doing
> that.

   It depends on how ghostscript is called. If it is just called with
system(); or popen(); then you don't need to make it GPL.

> My question is: would the rest of our product need to be re-licensed
> under the GPL too?

   Again, it depends on how "the rest of your product" communicates with
the printing server. If they are completely separate programs (ie. one
calling the other with system() or through a pipe), then both can have
their separate license.

   However, if your printing server component is a library and is GPLed,
then every work linked to it has to be GPLed (or have an even less
restrictive license).

> Also, is it relevant that at the moment the whole app. comes on a single CD?

   This is considered "mere aggregation" of software by the GPL, and
thus the different parts of the work do not need to have the same
license, even if there is one GPLed app there.

> I.e. if we added the new print server to the CD then have we just formed a
> "distribution" (as described in the license) and ...aaagh.

   Don't worry, as I said, just have a look at the very last sentence of
section 2 of the GPL.

Regards,
Sam.
-- 
Samuel Hocevar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
http://www.via.ecp.fr/~sam/
1024D/29499F61 1999-04-221155 4B19 A50F 1136 6E60  A499 7CF3 F5AF 2949 9F61
dig goret.org @zoy.org axfr \
  | perl -e 'for(sort(<>)){print pack("H32",$1) if(/^c..\.(\w+)/)}' | gzip -d



Re: GPL question

2000-09-05 Thread Mike Cunningham


--  Forwarded Message  --
Subject: Re: GPL question
Date: Tue, 5 Sep 2000 16:13:30 +0100
From: Mike Cunningham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>


On Tue, 05 Sep 2000, you wrote:

> Um.. debian-legal doesn't engage in handing out legal advice.
> 
> We're focussed on whether something would cause legal problems
> for debian -- we have no real experience dealing with other
> legal issues.
> 
> You might want to contact the author of Ghostscript.
> 
> Sorry,
> 
> -- 
> Raul

OK Raul, fair enough. I just thought you guys might have thrashed this one out
already and have a view you might share if you were asked politely.

Please accept my apologies.

Mike


***
Attachments in this message have been swept
by NAI's TVD (version 4.0.4093) for the presence
of known computer viruses.
*

_
This message has been checked for all known viruses by Star Internet delivered
through the MessageLabs Virus Control Centre. For further information visit
http://www.star.net.uk/stats.asp



Re: GPL Question

1999-10-15 Thread William T Wilson
On Thu, 14 Oct 1999, Matthew Simpson wrote:

> > You are free to use and distribute any command string in the Printer
> > Technical Reference. I double checked this with my manager. The only

That seems like a pretty straightforward answer to me.  What aspect of the
law are you worried about violating?

They don't need to put their commands under the GPL.  Information such as
command strings are not subject to copyright law.  The only thing that is
copyrighted in this case is the actual manual itself.  It's much like if
you buy a math textbook, you don't have to get permission from the author
of the textbook to publish a scientific paper based on formulas you
learned out of the book.

The only way you would be restricted is if you signed an NDA regarding the
information in the manual, which it appears that you did not.