Re: Finding i386 After Support Ends (Was: differences among amd64 and i386)

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 09:16:49AM -0500, Cindy Sue Causey wrote:
> That points you to an amazingly long list of Debian releases:
> 
> https://linuxcollections.com/products/debian/debian.htm

Though if I wanted an image for an old Debian release I'd just
download it from:

https://cdimage.debian.org/mirror/cdimage/archive/

for free…

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Finding i386 After Support Ends (Was: differences among amd64 and i386)

[Cindy Sue Causey]

On 12/17/23, Andy Smith  wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 06:10:49AM -0500, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:45 PM Tixy  wrote:
>> > Just announced today [1] it looks like Debian will drop i386 installs
>> > for the next release.
>> >
>> > [1]
>> > https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2023/12/msg3.html
>> >
>> Goodbye i386, you had a good run.
>
> I expect it to be decades before it's gone! 32-bit binaries will
> keep on being run under amd64.

There's always some place like Linux Collections out there, too. This
isn't an ad, it's a happy customer gush. My CDs and DVDs from them are
4 years old, and all still work great when emergency access is needed.
Wasn't a random purchase. I test drove LC because they're listed here:

https://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/#us

That points you to an amazingly long list of Debian releases:

https://linuxcollections.com/products/debian/debian.htm

Some poking around finds this which moves away from being solely Debian:

https://linuxcollections.com/products/buildcollection.htm

DISCLAIMER: My very old i386 CDs used to work on everything. The ones
I purchased from them did not. It's possible that the difference is
that I'm using much more modern hardware these many years later, but I
won't swear to that being the only difference in that equation.

That "build collection" option is how I picked out my stack of about
15 CDs and DVDs for maybe $35 four years ago. Prices are still within
my range with some looking like they haven't changed any from before.

Yeah, you can still SOMETIMES find similar archive files to download
and burn your own.. but not always, especially if you're seeking an
operating system's entire history while waxing nostalgic.

For example, Linux Collections lists ArtistX whose online presence is
disappearing. ArtistX has a PHENOMENAL number of visual and audio
creator type programs. A lot of them may not exist anymore. I LOVED
that DVD literally to its death so a heartfelt thank you to the
diehard fans who keep very old projects accessible today.

Wandering off now remembering that stack of 31 Debian CDs I bought
from that guy who also used to be referenced on Debian dotORG but who
closed his business a few years ago. Never even got CD #1 to work
because I was so brand new to Linux at the time.

That thought caused me to roll down the page to the bottom of Linux
Collections' Debian offerings. There is a "donate" option that I
forgot they have. I fully trust their promise to pay it forward...
because I can still find them listed on that Debian dotORG webpage.
Beyond that, they sure are not gouging on those prices... $2.39
still.. wow.

PS No, I didn't find specifics about them shipping international.
While test driving their "Add To Order" button, I ended up at their
shopping cart. That page does reference international orders so that's
hopeful.

PPS When playing with old distros, don't forget their security support
shut down sometimes decades ago.

PPPS They got DSL, Damn Small Linux. That's the distribution that
triggered my addiction to minimalist debootstrap.

When I encountered those 3 years or so of permanent GPT-induced GRUB
boot fails recently, I tried to find a replacement operating system
because others were still booting just fine from LiveDVDs. Never
stumbled on anything as cognitively friendly as debootstrap.. and so
here we still are. Thank you, Developers!

Cindy :)
-- 
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA
* runs with her Happy New Year's Linux wishlist champing at the bit *

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Andy Smith]

Hello,

On Sun, Dec 17, 2023 at 06:10:49AM -0500, Timothy M Butterworth wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:45 PM Tixy  wrote:
> > Just announced today [1] it looks like Debian will drop i386 installs
> > for the next release.
> >
> > [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2023/12/msg3.html
> >
> Goodbye i386, you had a good run.

I expect it to be decades before it's gone! 32-bit binaries will
keep on being run under amd64.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Timothy M Butterworth]

On Sat, Dec 16, 2023 at 7:45 PM Tixy  wrote:

> On Thu, 2023-12-14 at 18:19 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge
> >
> > Instruction set x86-64
> > Instructionsx86, x86-64
> >
> > You could run amd64 on this machine.  Right now, you have a choice
> > between the two, but some distributions have already dropped support
> > for i386.  amd64 would be the more future-proof choice.
>
> Just announced today [1] it looks like Debian will drop i386 installs
> for the next release.
>
> [1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2023/12/msg3.html
>
> --
> Tixy
>
>
Goodbye i386, you had a good run.


-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org/
⠈⠳⣄⠀⠀

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Tixy]

On Thu, 2023-12-14 at 18:19 -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge
> 
> Instruction set x86-64
> Instructions    x86, x86-64
> 
> You could run amd64 on this machine.  Right now, you have a choice
> between the two, but some distributions have already dropped support
> for i386.  amd64 would be the more future-proof choice.

Just announced today [1] it looks like Debian will drop i386 installs
for the next release.

[1] https://lists.debian.org/debian-devel-announce/2023/12/msg3.html

-- 
Tixy

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Michael Stone]

On Fri, Dec 15, 2023 at 09:36:19AM -0500, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

Also see x32, . It takes advantage of
amd64 benefits, and tries to reduce the memory pressures.


x32 hasn't really gone anywhere and is unlikely to at this point; amd64 
is the only reasonable choice today for a normal user who just wants to 
use the computer.

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 6:20 PM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 09:54:08PM +, fuf wrote:
> > Near a half month ago I bought a comp. made into 2011 year and didn't knew
> > which Debian12 to put: i386 or amd64?, chose i386 as thought that old comp.
> > didn't take amd64.
> > i386-netinst Debian 12 was being installed perfectly,  and later I could to
> > read a disk owned to the comp.:
> > CPU
> > Support Processor Intel Sandy Bridge (Dual core / Quad core) (optional)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge
>
> Instruction set x86-64
> Instructionsx86, x86-64
>
> You could run amd64 on this machine.  Right now, you have a choice
> between the two, but some distributions have already dropped support
> for i386.  amd64 would be the more future-proof choice.

amd64 is probably the better choice, as Greg points out.

On the good side, amd64 also has twice the registers, and can perform
64-bit math. Both usually make software run faster.

On the downside, 64-bit increases memory pressures.

Also see x32, . It takes advantage of
amd64 benefits, and tries to reduce the memory pressures.

Jeff

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Andy Smith]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 09:54:08PM +, fuf wrote:
> I  don't notice differences among amd64 and i386 but think to pick among
> this. Give advice, what better please?

i386 (or any other 32-bit x86) Linux should generally not ever be
used on any hardware that supports amd64.

The main reason for this is that it is a dying platform not tested
as well or supported as well by upstream Linux kernel. It will have
security bugs that are unfixed and fixes for security bugs take
longer to land than for amd64.

The next Debian release probably will not even haver installer
support for 32-bit x86 - though it will still remain as an
architecture for those who want/need to do multi-arch.

If you have software that for some reason is only available for
32-bit x86 (e.g. proprietary binary that you cannot recompile) you
are advised to run an amd64 OS with support for 32-bit userland
programs, which has been well supported on Debian for ages.

If you have some tiny device with less than 4G RAM and you don't
care about security and you don't care about being able to install
up to date versions of Debian and other Linux OS, then: I guess you
could start wondering about whether the smaller data sizes of 32-bit
code could possibly be more performant but it's tricky to determine
if they really are and generally not worth it given the mentioned
issues of 32-bit Linux.

Thanks,
Andy

-- 
https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[David Christensen]

On 12/14/23 15:30, David Christensen wrote:

On 12/14/23 13:54, fuf wrote:
  Also, is there any simplest way to increase the font at the "bare 
base" at once after login?


... use Preferences in the Xfce Panel and the various applications to set their
font sizes.



A simpler way is to use Menu -> Settings -> Display -> Scale.  On my 
machine, the preset scales "1.5x" and "2x" cause everything on the 
screen to get smaller.  If I choose "custom" and enter a scale less than 
one (say, 0.9), everything gets bigger.



David

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[David Christensen]

On 12/14/23 13:54, fuf wrote:

Good day!
Near a half month ago I bought a comp. made into 2011 year and didn't knew
which Debian12 to put: i386 or amd64?, chose i386 as thought that old comp.
didn't take amd64.



What is the make and model of your computer?  Processor?


i386-netinst Debian 12 was being installed perfectly,  



Good.  :-)



and later I could to
read a disk owned to the comp.:
CPU
Support Processor Intel Sandy Bridge (Dual core / Quad core) (optional)
TDP 35W / 45W
Core Chips
PCH Intel® HM65
Memory
Technology
DDR3 1333 MHz
Memory DDR3 SO-DIMM X 2 slots
Maximum 8 GB
In BIOS I had read:  Memory 2GB,  Processor Speed  ~2GHz,  Disk 320GB.



I have a 2007 Dell Inspiron E1505 laptop with an Intel Core 2 Duo T7400 
processor (2.16 GHz, 64-bit), 2 @ 1024 MB DDR2-666 memory modules, and 
an Intel SSD 520 Series 60 GB 2.5" SATA SSD.  It works fine with Debian 
amd64 and the Xfce desktop.  I must be careful with applications that 
can consume a lot of resources, notably Firefox and high-definition video.




I installed amd64-netinst Debian 12 but the bare base (for speed) hoping
after  to add  all necessary. Of course nothing  couldn't . Third time I
have installed Xfce and all to be suggested.



A bare base install can make sense for a headless server.  But, I 
suspect yours is a laptop or desktop computer and a 320 GB disk drive 
has plenty of capacity, so I would install the Xfce graphical desktop 
environment.




Now comp. is having  3 Debian 12 and 1 swap partition 4GB.
I  don't notice differences among amd64 and i386 but think to pick among
this. Give advice, what better please? 



A 32-bit operating system is supposed to consume less memory than a 
64-bit operating system, but I run 64-bit operating systems on all of my 
64-bit capable computers because I want 64-bit services, applications, 
and programming tools.




I will add memory if the spare slots
are, but maybe all busy? There are 2 slots only.



I suggest that you visit the web sites of the various reputable memory 
manufacturers and use their "memory finder" page to determine what 
"matched pair" memory module kits are supported on your computer.  You 
want a "matched pair" kit so that the processor can access memory in 
dual channel mode.



But before you touch any memory modules, buy an anti-static wrist strap. 
 Wear it and take your shoes off whenever you handle bare electronics.




  Also, is there any simplest way to increase the font at the "bare base" at
once after login?
Thanks all.
--fuf



I am unsure of how to change the resolution and font size of the 
graphical login screen.



Once you have logged in to Xfce, use Menu -> Settings -> Display to set 
the screen resolution.  Then use Preferences in the Xfce Panel and the 
various applications to set their font sizes.



David

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Dec 14, 2023 at 09:54:08PM +, fuf wrote:
> Near a half month ago I bought a comp. made into 2011 year and didn't knew
> which Debian12 to put: i386 or amd64?, chose i386 as thought that old comp.
> didn't take amd64.
> i386-netinst Debian 12 was being installed perfectly,  and later I could to
> read a disk owned to the comp.:
> CPU
> Support Processor Intel Sandy Bridge (Dual core / Quad core) (optional)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Bridge

Instruction set x86-64
Instructionsx86, x86-64

You could run amd64 on this machine.  Right now, you have a choice
between the two, but some distributions have already dropped support
for i386.  amd64 would be the more future-proof choice.

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Stefan Monnier]

> I  don't notice differences among amd64 and i386 but think to pick among
> this. Give advice, what better please? I will add memory if the spare slots
> are, but maybe all busy? There are 2 slots only.

I mostly use i386 on my machines, but it's mostly because that's what
I started with 20 years ago and never bothered to change.  Maybe if you
stick to 2GB of RAM you'll be better off with i386 because amd64
eats up a bit more memory.

But if you add a 4GB stick in there (i.e. bump the memory to 5GB or
more), it would make more sense to go with amd64 because the i386 port
is "on the way out" and is much less widely used and hence much less
widely tested.


Stefan

Re: differences among amd64 and i386

[Richmond]

fuf  writes:

> Good day!  Near a half month ago I bought a comp. made into 2011 year
> and didn't knew which Debian12 to put: i386 or amd64?, chose i386 as
> thought that old comp. didn't take amd64.  i386-netinst Debian 12 was
> being installed perfectly,  and later I could to read a disk owned to
> the comp.: CPU Support Processor Intel Sandy Bridge (Dual core / Quad
> core) (optional) TDP 35W / 45W Core Chips PCH Intel® HM65 Memory
> Technology DDR3 1333 MHz Memory DDR3 SO-DIMM X 2 slots Maximum 8 GB In
> BIOS I had read:  Memory 2GB,  Processor Speed  ~2GHz,  Disk 320GB.
>
> I installed amd64-netinst Debian 12 but the bare base (for speed)
> hoping after  to add  all necessary. Of course nothing  couldn't .
> Third time I have installed Xfce and all to be suggested.  Now
> comp. is having  3 Debian 12 and 1 swap partition 4GB.  I  don't
> notice differences among amd64 and i386 but think to pick among
> this. Give advice, what better please? I will add memory if the spare
> slots are, but maybe all busy? There are 2 slots only.   Also, is
> there any simplest way to increase the font at the "bare base" at once
> after login?  Thanks all.  --fuf

If you use:

sudo dmidecode -t memory

It will show you how much memory is in each slot, and the maximum
memory.

I am finding my PC with 2 Gigabytes of RAM performs better with 386 os,
but some things don't work like app images, TOR browser.

This link suggests for example Seamonkey requires 2 GB RAM for the
32-bit version 3 GB RAM for the 64-bit version

https://www.seamonkey-project.org/en/doc/system-requirements

differences among amd64 and i386

[fuf]

Good day!
Near a half month ago I bought a comp. made into 2011 year and didn't knew
which Debian12 to put: i386 or amd64?, chose i386 as thought that old comp.
didn't take amd64.
i386-netinst Debian 12 was being installed perfectly,  and later I could to
read a disk owned to the comp.:
CPU
Support Processor Intel Sandy Bridge (Dual core / Quad core) (optional)
TDP 35W / 45W
Core Chips
PCH Intel® HM65
Memory
Technology
DDR3 1333 MHz
Memory DDR3 SO-DIMM X 2 slots
Maximum 8 GB
In BIOS I had read:  Memory 2GB,  Processor Speed  ~2GHz,  Disk 320GB.

I installed amd64-netinst Debian 12 but the bare base (for speed) hoping
after  to add  all necessary. Of course nothing  couldn't . Third time I
have installed Xfce and all to be suggested.
Now comp. is having  3 Debian 12 and 1 swap partition 4GB.
I  don't notice differences among amd64 and i386 but think to pick among
this. Give advice, what better please? I will add memory if the spare slots
are, but maybe all busy? There are 2 slots only.
 Also, is there any simplest way to increase the font at the "bare base" at
once after login?
Thanks all.
--fuf