mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thursday 11 April 2002 12:53 am, Rich Rudnick wrote: On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 00:35, ben wrote: On Wednesday 10 April 2002 11:54 pm, Simon Hepburn wrote: ben wrote: thanks for the input. so, on attachments, none? some? If I'm helping people out with, say X problems for example, I'd far prefer to see their config and log files as attachments rather than pasted, simply beccause of the sheer length of them. Also a lot of files, for example fstab, are just plain awkward to read when pasted and wrapped. And what about gpg ? Attachments are pretty useful things on the whole, even if some of them might contain things none of us are interested in . 1. no spam 2. text-only (no html, ms-tnef, etc.) 3. wrap text since i've not been done wrong by any attachment i've ever received, and no real objection to them exists as yet, what other conditions need apply? while the three above seem trivial, the purpose of this is to generate an advisory notice for new subscribers. what else shoud be on that list? 4. Spell check. i think stipulating a spell check would impose too much on many non-native english speakers whose participation on this list is very valuable, and the purpose of the rules is to enable harmonious inclusion rather than exclusion. apart from that, misspelled words are hardly a great source of consternation. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thursday 11 April 2002 02:39 am, Patrick Kirk wrote: Hi all, My posts on this topic generated more heat than light - apologies to anyone offended. none taken, although your more recent suggestion involving list-customized filters seems like way too much interference in the freedom that everyone should retain in choosing their own means of dealing with mail. what we need is a simplification, rather than the imposition of requiring that people adopt anything they don't choose for themselves. it's all a matter of eliminating the redundant litter that irritates everyone, such as html formatting in mail messages. the solution is simple--use plain text. so far, we've got three simple rules that appear to be generally approved-- 1. no spam 2. text-only (no html, ms-tnef, etc.) 3. wrap text --none of which require that anyone radically modify the essential structure of their own setup. let's stick with simple solutions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 11:16, ben wrote: On Thursday 11 April 2002 02:39 am, Patrick Kirk wrote: Hi all, I didn't say force people to use filters. I said that if you don't like something, it makes sense to filter it and things like ms-tnef are particularly easy to filter. formatting in mail messages. the solution is simple--use plain text. so far, we've got three simple rules that appear to be generally approved-- 1. no spam 2. text-only (no html, ms-tnef, etc.) Does that exculde the hotmail yahoo whatever browser-based mailer people? Personally I don't mind html mail. I score against it in spam filtering but I see a lot of it from perfectly reasonable people. ms-tnef is not a mail format. I think its an autoresponse...I don't know if people choose to send it. 3. wrap text Agreed. A tip on how to do this would probably be useful as its not easy to set up if you don't know how. --none of which require that anyone radically modify the essential structure of their own setup. let's stick with simple solutions. The simple solution is do nothing. The list is fine. The rules you suggest are the basis of all email, not something specific to Debian. -- Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On 11 Apr 2002, Patrick Kirk wrote: Does that exculde the hotmail yahoo whatever browser-based mailer people? No. They don't send in HTML. Though I would discourage anybody from using Hotmail as it's owned by the enemy, and Yahoo due to spamming practices. ms-tnef is not a mail format. I think its an autoresponse...I don't know if people choose to send it. Actually, it is a mail format. A quick google search turned up this information: http://agamemnon.ucs.ed.ac.uk/faq/mstnef.html A common problem is that people will sometimes recieve a message from a person using some form of Microsoft mailer which is supposed to have a file attached. Indeed, it does have an attachment but it shows up as being of type application/ms-tnef and does not extract into the file it is supposed to be. The file that does appear cannot usually be loaded into the application that the file was supposed to be for. Also, you may recieve messages that don't mention having an attachment at all, but yet there is an application/ms-tnef file there, usually containing something called WINMAIL.DAT The problem is, I'm afraid, a Microsoft one. A few years back they decided to offer rich text features, i.e. extended message formatting. In order to do this they decided to do the following; send a plain text version of the message and a version coded into a form of Rich Text Format. If the mailer on the other end could handle the Rich Text Format version they would see that, otherwise they would see the plain text. To do this, they used their own method, called the Microsoft Transport Neutral Encapsulation Format, or MS-TNEF. Essentially a file called WINMAIL.DAT, which is just a standard MIME encoding of a Rich Text Format version of the message, is included with outgoing mail. This doubles the size of the mail, and is not much use unless you are using Microsoft mail packages. This would be just an irritation, however, but for a second problem. When people using Microsoft mailers with this way of working attach a file to the message it gets bundled in with the MS-TNEF section, not attached as a seperate file. Unless you can extract it from the MS-TNEF attachment you cannot get at the real file. It goes on to describe what can be done to deal with it in software other than just flat out filtering out the crap. The simple solution is do nothing. The list is fine. The rules you suggest are the basis of all email, not something specific to Debian. Unfortunately common sense isn't common. -- Baloo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thursday 11 April 2002 04:10 am, Paul 'Baloo' Johnson wrote: On 11 Apr 2002, Patrick Kirk wrote: Does that exculde the hotmail yahoo whatever browser-based mailer people? No. They don't send in HTML. Though I would discourage anybody from using Hotmail as it's owned by the enemy, and Yahoo due to spamming practices. ms-tnef is not a mail format. I think its an autoresponse...I don't know if people choose to send it. Actually, it is a mail format. A quick google search turned up this information: [snip] so, given that info on ms-tnef, #2 remains valid. 1. no spam 2. text-only (no html, ms-tnef, etc.) 3. wrap text patrick, as far as enabling #3 is concerned, the method will vary according to whatever mailer is employed. so let's get on to the next proposition: 4. reply to the list only, unless specifically requested to cc: this has as much to do with conserving bandwidth as does eliminating html, etc. i read the list. i don't need duplicates. let those who do request them. ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thu, 11 Apr 2002, ben wrote: 4. reply to the list only, unless specifically requested to cc: this has as much to do with conserving bandwidth as does eliminating html, etc. i read the list. i don't need duplicates. let those who do request them. This is easy enough to procmail out. If it's that major of a problem, don't be afraid to let the listmaster stomp the reply-to header with something favoring the list, which is the only luser-resistant way of handling that (yes, I realise many MUAs handle lists in a superior manner, however this is not common). -- Baloo -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 12:46, ben wrote: On Thursday 11 April 2002 04:10 am, Paul 'Baloo' Johnson wrote: On 11 Apr 2002, Patrick Kirk wrote: Does that exculde the hotmail yahoo whatever browser-based mailer I'm pretty easy about all this. Its all a lot more reasonable than writing to people's employers complaining about stuff Exchange spits out or filtering on MS Outlook. Isn't there a netiquette page where all this kind of stuff is covered? Best regards, Patrick -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
1. no spam 2. text-only (no html, ms-tnef, etc.) 3. wrap text 4. English preferred. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
begin ben quotation: 4. reply to the list only, unless specifically requested to cc: This can happen because of a buggy mail client, or because the original sender has set message flags to cause this to happen, which again can be because of a buggy mail client or a deliberate configuration choice. I use Mutt's list reply feature, and sometimes the other person has set Mail-followup-to and so gets a CC:. Then other respondents use group reply and the problem escalates. However, trimming the CC wouldn't be right, because setting Mail-followup-to *IS* requesting a CC. -- Shawn McMahon| Information may want to be free, but fiber http://www.eiv.com | optic cable wants to be one million US AIM: spmcmahonfedex, smcmahoneiv | dollars per mile. pgphuwZF37u5q.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
begin Patrick Kirk quotation: Does that exculde the hotmail yahoo whatever browser-based mailer people? Not any more than it does now; html is already against the list rules. Hotmail and Yahoo can both be set to send plain-text mail. If someone chooses to do differently, they have only themselves to blame. ms-tnef is not a mail format. I think its an autoresponse...I don't know if people choose to send it. This is incorrect. The simple solution is do nothing. The list is fine. Obviously, because nobody is complaining about it. This thread doesn't exist. You are imagining it. -- Shawn McMahon| Information may want to be free, but fiber http://www.eiv.com | optic cable wants to be one million US AIM: spmcmahonfedex, smcmahoneiv | dollars per mile. pgpOVNNpVRzO6.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
4. Spell check. i think stipulating a spell check would impose too much on many non-native english speakers whose participation on this list is very valuable, and the purpose of the rules is to enable harmonious inclusion rather than exclusion. apart from that, misspelled words are hardly a great source of consternation. I'm non native english speaker. I haven't tried to setup spell checking, but I guess it's not that hard. Anyway, you could get a message with correctly spelled words, but the sentences will be simply bad formed or, at least, unusually written. I'm almost sure there are in this few lines many examples of what I say, things written in a way no native english apeaker would ever write. I've learnt english by myself and never been in an english speaking country. You can understand what I write but you would hardly understand it if I were speaking, because of my untrained pronunciation. I guess the message is clear enough anyway, since every time I post a message I got reasonable responses, so I've been correctly understood. The spellchecker is pretty, but hardly useful enough as to require it to post to the list. -- Daniel Toffetti --- 'There is no spoon...' - The Matrix Running the bleeding edge Debian Sid version 3.0 Linux luni 2.4.13 #1 SMP Sun Oct 28 18:30:53 ART 2001 i686 unknown -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thursday 11 April 2002 10:51, Kent West wrote: 1. no spam 2. text-only (no html, ms-tnef, etc.) 3. wrap text 4. English preferred. I do agree, but anyway most of the messages are posted in english. The few that are not in english are from first-timers. I often redirect messages in other languages to the language-specific mailing list. Indeed, it's no harm to make it explicit in the subscription confirmation request. -- Daniel Toffetti --- 'There is no spoon...' - The Matrix Running the bleeding edge Debian Sid version 3.0 Linux luni 2.4.13 #1 SMP Sun Oct 28 18:30:53 ART 2001 i686 unknown -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
begin Daniel Toffetti quotation: The spellchecker is pretty, but hardly useful enough as to require it to post to the list. It can in fact be detrimental for non-Native speakers, because if the spell checker suggests a word that is not at all what you meant, you might go oh, is that what it is? OK. and pick something bizarre. A spell checker is a technical solution to a social problem, and you should only use those when the social solution isn't working. -- Shawn McMahon| Information may want to be free, but fiber http://www.eiv.com | optic cable wants to be one million US AIM: spmcmahonfedex, smcmahoneiv | dollars per mile. pgpQZQGz050Tu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
On Thu, 2002-04-11 at 10:15, Daniel Toffetti wrote: 4. Spell check. i think stipulating a spell check would impose too much on many non-native english speakers whose participation on this list is very valuable, snip The spellchecker is pretty, but hardly useful enough as to require it to post to the list. An ace! Game point to Daniel :) -- first impressions are bunk (unknown) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail rules (WAS Re: The latest round of antivirus bouncebacks)
Shawn writes: It can in fact be detrimental for non-Native speakers, because if the spell checker suggests a word that is not at all what you meant, you might go oh, is that what it is? OK. and pick something bizarre. That's because most spelling checkers know too many words. -- John Hasler [EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Hasler) Dancing Horse Hill Elmwood, WI -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
