Re: mouse wheel

[Franco Martelli]

On 26/04/24 at 16:50, tony wrote:
Thank you very much. It was indeed the mouse that had failed. I 
'borrowed' a mouse from my laptop, which worked fine. Thanks again


Check it twice, maybe turn off the mouse and unplug/re-plug the receiver 
it solves the issue.


Cheers,
--
Franco Martelli

Re: mouse wheel

[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2024 um 15:50:05 Uhr schrieb tony:

> Thank you very much. It was indeed the mouse that had failed.

Open it and check if there is dirt in the spokewheel. This will block
the light for the optomechanical sensor.

-- 
Gruß
Marco

Send unsolicited bulk mail to 1714139405mu...@cartoonies.org

Re: mouse wheel

[tony]

On 26/04/2024 12:16, Marco Moock wrote:

Am 26.04.2024 schrieb tony :

Thank you very much. It was indeed the mouse that had failed. I 
'borrowed' a mouse from my laptop, which worked fine. Thanks again.


Tony


My mouse wheel seems to have (suddenly) stopped working and will not
scroll. Anyone come across this? Help much appreciated.


Run xev and the scroll the wheel and check the output.

You should see something like this:
ButtonPress event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
 root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45498783, (88,110), root:(400,614),
 state 0x10, button 4, same_screen YES

ButtonRelease event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
 root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45498783, (88,110), root:(400,614),
 state 0x810, button 4, same_screen YES

ButtonPress event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
 root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45500535, (88,110), root:(400,614),
 state 0x10, button 5, same_screen YES

ButtonRelease event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
 root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45500535, (88,110), root:(400,614),
 state 0x1010, button 5, same_screen YES

If that occurs, the mouse itself is working.

Re: mouse wheel

[Marco Moock]

Am 26.04.2024 schrieb tony :

> My mouse wheel seems to have (suddenly) stopped working and will not 
> scroll. Anyone come across this? Help much appreciated.

Run xev and the scroll the wheel and check the output.

You should see something like this:
ButtonPress event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45498783, (88,110), root:(400,614),
state 0x10, button 4, same_screen YES

ButtonRelease event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45498783, (88,110), root:(400,614),
state 0x810, button 4, same_screen YES

ButtonPress event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45500535, (88,110), root:(400,614),
state 0x10, button 5, same_screen YES

ButtonRelease event, serial 32, synthetic NO, window 0x2c1,
root 0x557, subw 0x0, time 45500535, (88,110), root:(400,614),
state 0x1010, button 5, same_screen YES

If that occurs, the mouse itself is working.

mouse wheel

[tony]

Hi,

Debian 10/KDE.

My mouse wheel seems to have (suddenly) stopped working and will not 
scroll. Anyone come across this? Help much appreciated.


Cheers, Tony

keyboard and mouse just stuck

[jwbda]

Hi, Thanks for reading, and I need some help.
Description: About 2024 Mar 14 0:0:0, I use the shortcut 'Ctrl + Alt + L', lock 
the screen, after several hours, I want to login the computer. Then, I click 
one mouse, and type one enter key, the screen light, and everything stuck and 
stop. The mouse and keyboard cant click, cant move, cant type.

And this is 
[log](https://github.com/jwbda/debian/blob/main/mouse_keyboard_problem) of 
`sudo journalctl --since "2024-03-11" --until "2024-03-15"` 
command.https://github.com/jwbda/debian/blob/main/mouse_keyboard_problem

And if you need anything to solve this problem, just feel free to tell me. 
Thank you so much

Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email.

Re: Mate: mouse too sensitive

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Thu, Mar 14, 2024 at 04:33:56PM + schrieb Ottavio Caruso:
> My Logitech wireless mouse has always been a bot over-sensitive, but now,
> going into its 7th years of life, has become even more erratic. I am not
> complaining about the speed, just the sensitivity. I have to be very careful
> not moving the mouse too much in order not to close/open windows,
> accidentally removing text, etc.
> 
> I have configured "mate-mouse-properties" to the lowest possible sensitivity
> (changing the acceleration doesn't make much difference), but it is still
> too sensitive.
> 
> This the output from xinput:
> 
> $ xinput list-props 'Logitech Wireless Mouse'
> Device 'Logitech Wireless Mouse':
>   Device Enabled (177):   1
>   Coordinate Transformation Matrix (179): 1.00, 0.00, 0.00,
> 0.00, 1.00, 0.00, 0.00, 0.00, 1.00
>   libinput Natural Scrolling Enabled (316):   0
[...]

> Any clue?

I have slowed down a mouse by the following line in my .xinitrc:
xinput set-prop "Logitech USB Optical Mouse" "Coordinate Transformation Matrix" 
0.5 0 0 0 0.5 0 0 0 2

Adjusting the coordinate transformation matrix might be one way to go.

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[Marcelo Laia]

10,916 V looks a bit odd to me.


After your comments, I looking forward about the battery voltage and I
found this:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/how-choose-laptop-battery-king-sener/

"Voltage is closely related to the number of cells in the battery -
typically a 10.8V battery has 6 cells and a 14.4V battery has 8 cells."


https://superuser.com/questions/33207/laptop-battery-is-voltage-really-important-to-respect

https://superuser.com/a/406492

"The first stage is adapter which is nearly 5 V higher than the battery
rating voltage to charge it faster to the full. Now the second stage is
the motherboard or processor which typically runs at 5 V and for that
you have voltage regulator inside."

At 98%, the voltage here is:

  battery
present: yes
rechargeable:yes
state:   charging
warning-level:   none
energy:  36,0417 Wh
energy-empty:0 Wh
energy-full: 36,3858 Wh
energy-full-design:  59,94 Wh
energy-rate: 1,8537 W
voltage: 12,734 V
charge-cycles:   N/A
time to full:11,1 minutes
percentage:  99%
capacity:60,7037%
technology:  lithium-ion
icon-name:  'battery-full-charging-symbolic'

I found that this battery I bought in 2019. However, it is pretty good
yet!


--
Marcelo

Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[hw]

Is it possible that the USB ports do not supply power once the laptop
is running on battery?

Does the NumLock LED of the keyboard go out?


On Thu, 2024-02-22 at 13:49 -0300, Marcelo Laia wrote:
> Dear Debian Users,
> 
> Thank you all for the invaluable assistance provided. Unfortunately, the 
> issue has resurfaced today. I don't believe it's related to the age of the 
> hardware, although my Inspiron 5547-A20 is from 2014, as indicated below:
> 
> Inspiron 5547 01 OCT. 2014
> 
> Some hardware details:
> 
> - BIOS:
>- Vendor: Dell Inc.
>- Version: A13
>- Date: 05/27/2019
> - CPU:
>- Product: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4510U CPU @ 2.00GHz
> - Memory:
>- Size: 16GB
> 
> Today, the battery still had 66% charge when this strange problem occurred. 
> It's worth mentioning that in all these days, between my last post here on 
> the list and today, I always use the battery until it reaches between 20-10%, 
> at which point I plug in the charger and let it charge until it reaches 
> 95-100%.
> 
> I ran the following commands:
> 
> With the power cable plugged into the power grid, i.e., the battery is 
> charging:
> 
> :~$ sudo lsusb -t
> 
> /:  Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M
>  |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M
>  |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, 
> Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
> /:  Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M
>  |__ Port 002: Dev 007, If 0, Class=Human Interface Device, 
> Driver=usbhid, 1.5M
> /:  Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M
> :~$
> 
> :~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/
> 1-1  1-1.5  1-1.6  1-1.7  1-1.8  2-2  bind  module  uevent  unbind  usb1  
> usb2  usb3
> :~$ 
> 
> After unplugging the power cable, i.e., the battery is discharging:
> 
> After a few seconds, the screen brightness is set to zero. The mouse remains 
> active, and I can use it for a few more seconds, when it also becomes 
> disabled. From then on, only the touchpad and internal keyboard are 
> functional.
> 
> :~$ sudo lsusb -t
> 
> /:  Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M
>  |__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
>  |__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M
>  |__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, 
> Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
>  |__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
> /:  Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M
> /:  Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M
> :~$ 
> 
> ~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/
> 1-1  1-1.5  1-1.6  1-1.7  1-1.8  bind  module  uevent  unbind  usb1  usb2  
> usb3
> :~$ 
> 
> :~$ echo '2-2' | sudo tee /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind 
> 2-2
> tee: /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind: No device
> :~$ 
> 
> :~$ upower --dump
> Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_ACAD
>native-path:  ACAD
>power supply: yes
>updated:  qui 22 fev 2024 13:23:50 (182 seconds ago)
>has history:  no
>has statistics:   no
>line-power
>  warning-level:   none
>  online:  no
>  icon-name:  'ac-adapter-symbolic'
> 
> Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
>native-path:  BAT1
>vendor:   SANYO
>model:DELL WYT3M94Q
>serial:   0038
>power supply: yes
>updated:  qui 22 fev 2024 13:26:31 (21 seconds ago)
>has history:  yes
>has statistics:   yes
>battery
>  present: yes
>  rechargeable:yes
>  state:   discharging
>  warning-level:   none
>  energy:  23,9982 Wh
>  energy-empty:0 Wh
>  energy-full: 36,4857 Wh
>  energy-full-design:  59,94 Wh
>  energy-rate: 30,0588 W
>  voltage: 10,916 V
>  charge-cycles:   N/A
>  time to empty:   47,9 minutes

Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[David Wright]

On Thu 22 Feb 2024 at 13:49:54 (-0300), Marcelo Laia wrote:

> Inspiron 5547 01 OCT. 2014
> 
> Some hardware details:
> 
> - BIOS:
>   - Vendor: Dell Inc.
>   - Version: A13
>   - Date: 05/27/2019
> - CPU:
>   - Product: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4510U CPU @ 2.00GHz
> - Memory:
>   - Size: 16GB

[ … ]

> After unplugging the power cable, i.e., the battery is discharging:
> 
> After a few seconds, the screen brightness is set to zero. The mouse
> remains active, and I can use it for a few more seconds, when it
> also becomes disabled. From then on, only the touchpad and internal
> keyboard are functional.

[ … ]

> Any other suggestions? It seems to me that it's not related to
> power, however, what is the specific list for energy-related issues? 

My advice would be to prepare for a day when you see nothing from
the moment you switch it on.

Here's a log of what happened with my Dell D430 laptop, purchased in
2008 as a stop-gap, acquired by me in 2009. First the battery packs:

  2014-02-12 Large battery started to go bad. Charging light started
  constantly flashing a pattern: four yellows and a longer
  green. Apart from that, everything works ok: the battery stays at
  five lights, and the acpi variables all show sensible
  values. However, the battery discharges much more quickly than it
  should, particularly early on, so some cells probably don't work
  properly.

  2015-03-29 Started to switch itself off when the power cable was
  disconnected. It appears that the battery is not actually connected
  to the computer when this happens.

  2015-03-31 The large battery finally gave up. When the charge button
  is pressed, only LEDS 1, 3 and 5 light up, but flashing. Otherwise,
  dead. Disposed of the large battery in Best Buy's foyer and started
  using the small one.

And the screen:

  2011-10-21 Started to switch itself off unaccountably every so
  often. No freeze, no kernel panic, but just like holding down the
  power switch. It will have been running a while, and usually it
  happens when the machine or lid is moved.

  2017-01-22 After a day or two of slight flickering in brightness,
  the screen blanked out a few times during the day. The machine was
  still running, and so X could be quit and restarted, and rebooted
  too. The screen would come back, but often disappear almost
  immediately, even while the Dell splash screen was being displayed
  at switch-on. It went away entirely the same day.

  2018-06-19 After being depowered for a week, the battery capacity
  had fallen to 2%. However, on AC the screen started working again,
  though it just flickered a little all the time. Took the opportunity
  to demote Internal HDD to below USB and Optical Drive in the BIOS.
  Got about three minutes before it reverted.

  2020-04-16 Started to crash, and eventually failed to boot.
  Obviously difficult to diagnose when there's no display at power-on,
  so scrapped.

If you're wondering why I kept it so long, I could use an external
monitor to display its X server screen, but neither the BIOS nor
the console would work that way, so I had to type blind until I got
into X. With a 30 second countdown, I could operate the Grub screen
blind. I also managed to install buster in text mode by copying what
I typed while installing on another PC at the same time. (I might
have been able to clone jessie into the other partition, but that
would have then required two dist-upgrades.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[Charles Curley]

On Thu, 22 Feb 2024 13:49:54 -0300
Marcelo Laia  wrote:

> Thank you all for the invaluable assistance provided. Unfortunately,
> the issue has resurfaced today. I don't believe it's related to the
> age of the hardware, although my Inspiron 5547-A20 is from 2014, as
> indicated below:

A stab in the dark:

I take it that you ran the upower --dump command while the battery was
discharging. 10,916 V looks a bit odd to me. What does a dump show when
the battery is fully charged? I wonder if that voltage is too low to
support the laptop.

My two ancient Lenovos (2011 and 2012) are both showing much better
values than that.

The difference between the energy-full and energy-full-design values,
and the capacity both lead me to wonder if it isn't time to buy a new
battery (or maybe a new or refurbished laptop).

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[Marcelo Laia]

Dear Debian Users,

Thank you all for the invaluable assistance provided. Unfortunately, the issue 
has resurfaced today. I don't believe it's related to the age of the hardware, 
although my Inspiron 5547-A20 is from 2014, as indicated below:

Inspiron 5547 01 OCT. 2014

Some hardware details:

- BIOS:
  - Vendor: Dell Inc.
  - Version: A13
  - Date: 05/27/2019
- CPU:
  - Product: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-4510U CPU @ 2.00GHz
- Memory:
  - Size: 16GB

Today, the battery still had 66% charge when this strange problem occurred. 
It's worth mentioning that in all these days, between my last post here on the 
list and today, I always use the battery until it reaches between 20-10%, at 
which point I plug in the charger and let it charge until it reaches 95-100%.

I ran the following commands:

With the power cable plugged into the power grid, i.e., the battery is charging:

:~$ sudo lsusb -t

/:  Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M
|__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M
|__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
|__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
|__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M
|__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, 
Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M
|__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
|__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
/:  Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M
|__ Port 002: Dev 007, If 0, Class=Human Interface Device, Driver=usbhid, 
1.5M
/:  Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M
:~$

:~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/
1-1  1-1.5  1-1.6  1-1.7  1-1.8  2-2  bind  module  uevent  unbind  usb1  usb2  
usb3
:~$ 


After unplugging the power cable, i.e., the battery is discharging:

After a few seconds, the screen brightness is set to zero. The mouse remains 
active, and I can use it for a few more seconds, when it also becomes disabled. 
From then on, only the touchpad and internal keyboard are functional.

:~$ sudo lsusb -t

/:  Bus 001.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=ehci-pci/2p, 480M
|__ Port 001: Dev 002, If 0, Class=Hub, Driver=hub/8p, 480M
|__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 0, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
|__ Port 005: Dev 003, If 1, Class=Wireless, Driver=btusb, 12M
|__ Port 006: Dev 004, 12M
|__ Port 007: Dev 005, If 0, Class=Vendor Specific Class, 
Driver=rtsx_usb, 480M
|__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 0, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
|__ Port 008: Dev 006, If 1, Class=Video, Driver=uvcvideo, 480M
/:  Bus 002.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/9p, 480M
/:  Bus 003.Port 001: Dev 001, Class=root_hub, Driver=xhci_hcd/4p, 5000M
:~$ 


~$ ls /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/
1-1  1-1.5  1-1.6  1-1.7  1-1.8  bind  module  uevent  unbind  usb1  usb2  usb3
:~$ 

:~$ echo '2-2' | sudo tee /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind 
2-2

tee: /sys/bus/usb/drivers/usb/bind: No device
:~$ 


:~$ upower --dump
Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/line_power_ACAD
  native-path:  ACAD
  power supply: yes
  updated:  qui 22 fev 2024 13:23:50 (182 seconds ago)
  has history:  no
  has statistics:   no
  line-power
warning-level:   none
online:  no
icon-name:  'ac-adapter-symbolic'

Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/battery_BAT1
  native-path:  BAT1
  vendor:   SANYO
  model:DELL WYT3M94Q
  serial:   0038
  power supply: yes
  updated:  qui 22 fev 2024 13:26:31 (21 seconds ago)
  has history:  yes
  has statistics:   yes
  battery
present: yes
rechargeable:yes
state:   discharging
warning-level:   none
energy:  23,9982 Wh
energy-empty:0 Wh
energy-full: 36,4857 Wh
energy-full-design:  59,94 Wh
energy-rate: 30,0588 W
voltage: 10,916 V
charge-cycles:   N/A
time to empty:   47,9 minutes
percentage:  65%
capacity:60,8704%
technology:  lithium-ion
icon-name:  'battery-full-symbolic'
  History (charge):
1708619191  65,000  discharging
1708619161  66,000  discharging
1708619101  67,000  discharging
  History (rate):
1708619101  30,059  discharging

Device: /org/freedesktop/UPower/devices/DisplayDevice
  power supply: yes
  updated:  qui 22 fev 2024 13:26:31 (21 seconds ago)
  has history:  no
  has statistics:   no
  battery
present: yes
state:   discharging
warning-level:   none
energy:  23,9982 Wh
energy-full: 36,4857 Wh
energy-rate: 30,0588 W
charge-cycles:   N/A
time to empty:   47,9 minutes
percentage

Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[Max Nikulin]

On 15/02/2024 12:39, David Wright wrote:


I would go further than tomas, and suggest that the battery might be
suspect, or the charging circuit of course. (None of my three laptops
works without AC power.) How old is it?


Battery health may be estimated from output of

 upower --dump

by comparison energy-full-design, energy-full, and other values.

I still believe it is excessively aggressive power settings in GNOME or 
in firmware (BIOS) setup. Maybe it is result of shooting own foot by 
tools like powertop or tlp. Anyway it is rather wrong settings than 
wrong behavior. There is a chance that the issue is with USB controller 
driver. Likely it is better to ask the same question in a user group 
more specific to power management.

Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[David Wright]

On Wed 14 Feb 2024 at 20:09:09 (-0300), Marcelo Laia wrote:
> Unfortunately, the issue has worsened. Today, I observed that upon unplugging 
> the power cable, within one or two seconds, the screen dims (brightness is 
> set to zero), and both the external mouse and keyboard (USB) stop working. 
> Even if I try to use the keyboard or mouse, they do not reactivate. Only the 
> laptop's internal touchpad and keyboard continue to function. When I 
> reconnect the power cable, both the external mouse and keyboard resume 
> working automatically. However, I need to manually adjust the screen 
> brightness. I have not installed the usbguard package. Could there be another 
> underlying cause?

I would go further than tomas, and suggest that the battery might be
suspect, or the charging circuit of course. (None of my three laptops
works without AC power.) How old is it?

Cheers,
David.

Re: Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[Marcelo Laia]

Dear Debian community,

Thank you for your insights. Unfortunately, the issue has worsened. Today, I 
observed that upon unplugging the power cable, within one or two seconds, the 
screen dims (brightness is set to zero), and both the external mouse and 
keyboard (USB) stop working. Even if I try to use the keyboard or mouse, they 
do not reactivate. Only the laptop's internal touchpad and keyboard continue to 
function. When I reconnect the power cable, both the external mouse and 
keyboard resume working automatically. However, I need to manually adjust the 
screen brightness. I have not installed the usbguard package. Could there be 
another underlying cause?

Best regards,

--
Marcelo

Re: (SOLVED) disable trackpad when mouse is connected (GNOME bug?)

[Keith Bainbridgge]

Good afternoon

Another option is to use a keyboard shortcut. My last laptop came with 
this set up using a Fn key combo (eg fn-f5)


So I'm using a key that was set to answer MSteams calls - what?

Check keyboard - shortcuts - touchpad. cinnamon gives options of 
toggle/switch on/ switch-off. I guess gnome will be similar as it was 
the basis of cinnamon


All the best

Keith Bainbridge

keith.bainbridge.3...@gmail.com
+61 (0)447 667 468

UTC + 10:00

On 26/1/24 13:53, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 25/01/2024 21:42, Max Nikulin wrote:

Try

 lsusb --verbose --tree


I have received a private reply. Please, send messages to the mailing 
list in such cases.


I intentionally combined -vt options and I find output more convenient 
than for just "lsusb -t". The "-t" option changes behavior of "-v". If 
you do not like how it is documented, please, discuss it with usbutils 
developers.

Re: (SOLVED) disable trackpad when mouse is connected (GNOME bug?)

[Max Nikulin]

On 25/01/2024 21:42, Max Nikulin wrote:

Try

     lsusb --verbose --tree


I have received a private reply. Please, send messages to the mailing 
list in such cases.


I intentionally combined -vt options and I find output more convenient 
than for just "lsusb -t". The "-t" option changes behavior of "-v". If 
you do not like how it is documented, please, discuss it with usbutils 
developers.

Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[Max Nikulin]

On 24/01/2024 02:13, Marcelo Laia wrote:


After recently upgrade, my external keyboard and external mouse (both 
USB) stopped working after after the screen brightness automatically 
decreased. This has occurred a few times, and I can only solve it by 
rebooting the laptop.


Were your experimenting with energy saving tools (desktop environment 
GUI, powertop, tlp, etc.)?


jan 23 11:28:43 marcelo dbus-daemon[2019]: [session uid=1000 pid=2019] 
Activating service name='org.gnome.ScreenSaver' requested by ':1.65' 
(uid=1000 pid=2729 comm="/usr/libexec/gsd-usb-protection")
jan 23 11:28:43 marcelo gsd-usb-protect[2729]: Failed to fetch USBGuard 
parameters: GDBus.Error:org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The 
name org.usbguard1 was not provided by any .service files


I have no idea what gsd-usb-protection should do or whether GNOME 
expects installed usbguard, but it might be related.

Re: (SOLVED) disable trackpad when mouse is connected (GNOME bug?)

[Max Nikulin]

On 25/01/2024 20:42, Henning Follmann wrote:

The issue is a usb hub. Somehow GNOME thinks this hub is a mouse.


Try

lsusb --verbose --tree

perhaps somebody plugged in a tiny receiver for a wireless mouse and 
forgot about it.

(SOLVED) disable trackpad when mouse is connected (GNOME bug?)

[Henning Follmann]

On Wed, Jan 24, 2024 at 03:30:23PM -0500, Henning Follmann wrote:
> Hello,
> for a while I am using
> 
> gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.peripherals.touchpad send-events 
> 'disabled-on-external-mouse'
> 
> which really worked fine.
> 
> But since last week this does not work anymore; in the way that the
> trackpad is always disabled, even when the mouse is not connected.
> 
> I have to issue a 
> gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.peripherals.touchpad send-events 'enabled'
> to get it back. That kind of defeats it's purpose though.
> 
> Any hints what could be causing this?
> 
> 

Hello,
replying to my own post.
The issue is a usb hub. Somehow GNOME thinks this hub is a mouse.

-H



-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

disable trackpad when mouse is connected (GNOME bug?)

[Henning Follmann]

Hello,
for a while I am using

gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.peripherals.touchpad send-events 
'disabled-on-external-mouse'

which really worked fine.

But since last week this does not work anymore; in the way that the
trackpad is always disabled, even when the mouse is not connected.

I have to issue a 
gsettings set org.gnome.desktop.peripherals.touchpad send-events 'enabled'
to get it back. That kind of defeats it's purpose though.

Any hints what could be causing this?


-H


-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[tomas]

On Tue, Jan 23, 2024 at 04:13:23PM -0300, Marcelo Laia wrote:
> Dear Debian community,
> 
> I am facing an issue with my Dell laptop, running Debian.
> 
> After recently upgrade, my external keyboard and external mouse (both USB)
> stopped working after after the screen brightness automatically decreased.
> This has occurred a few times, and I can only solve it by rebooting the
> laptop.
> 
> Furthermore, I have observed that the issue is also related to the behavior
> of screen brightness, which seems to decrease automatically.

A shot in the dark: does that happen only when running from battery?

Perhaps the laptop is powering down its (internal) USB hub to save
battery charge. In some BIOSes there are knobs to control this.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Issue with USB External Keyboard, External Mouse, and Screen Brightness on Dell Laptop

[Marcelo Laia]

Dear Debian community,

I am facing an issue with my Dell laptop, running Debian.

After recently upgrade, my external keyboard and external mouse 
(both USB) stopped working after after the screen brightness 
automatically decreased. This has occurred a few times, and I can 
only solve it by rebooting the laptop.


Furthermore, I have observed that the issue is also related to 
the behavior of screen brightness, which seems to decrease 
automatically.


Disconnecting and reconnecting the devices does not solve the problem.

Any guidance or suggestions would be welcome.

I found related problem at the internet.

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=291592

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=291555

https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=291931

:~$ uname -a
Linux marcelo 6.5.0-5-amd64 #1 SMP PREEMPT_DYNAMIC Debian 6.5.13-1 (2023-11-29) 
x86_64 GNU/Linux

:~$ sudo dmesg | grep usb
[1.112832] pci :00:1d.0: quirk_usb_early_handoff+0x0/0x7d0 took 17128 
usecs
[4.770474] usbcore: registered new interface driver usbfs
[4.770517] usbcore: registered new interface driver hub
[4.770612] usbcore: registered new device driver usb
[5.028858] usb usb1: New USB device found, idVendor=1d6b, idProduct=0002, 
bcdDevice= 6.05
[5.028871] usb usb1: New USB device strings: Mfr=3, Product=2, 
SerialNumber=1
[5.028880] usb usb1: Product: EHCI Host Controller
[5.028887] usb usb1: Manufacturer: Linux 6.5.0-5-amd64 ehci_hcd
[5.028893] usb usb1: SerialNumber: :00:1d.0
[5.047937] usb usb2: New USB device found, idVendor=1d6b, idProduct=0002, 
bcdDevice= 6.05
[5.047951] usb usb2: New USB device strings: Mfr=3, Product=2, 
SerialNumber=1
[5.047960] usb usb2: Product: xHCI Host Controller
[5.047967] usb usb2: Manufacturer: Linux 6.5.0-5-amd64 xhci-hcd
[5.047974] usb usb2: SerialNumber: :00:14.0
[5.102086] usb usb3: New USB device found, idVendor=1d6b, idProduct=0003, 
bcdDevice= 6.05
[5.102107] usb usb3: New USB device strings: Mfr=3, Product=2, 
SerialNumber=1
[5.102116] usb usb3: Product: xHCI Host Controller
[5.102123] usb usb3: Manufacturer: Linux 6.5.0-5-amd64 xhci-hcd
[5.102131] usb usb3: SerialNumber: :00:14.0
[5.501707] usb 1-1: new high-speed USB device number 2 using ehci-pci
[5.657069] usb 1-1: New USB device found, idVendor=8087, idProduct=8000, 
bcdDevice= 0.04
[5.657087] usb 1-1: New USB device strings: Mfr=0, Product=0, SerialNumber=0
[6.196709] usb 1-1.5: new full-speed USB device number 3 using ehci-pci
[6.306732] usb 1-1.5: New USB device found, idVendor=8087, idProduct=0a2b, 
bcdDevice= 0.01
[6.306745] usb 1-1.5: New USB device strings: Mfr=0, Product=0, 
SerialNumber=0
[6.384712] usb 1-1.6: new full-speed USB device number 4 using ehci-pci
[6.495352] usb 1-1.6: New USB device found, idVendor=04f3, idProduct=034f, 
bcdDevice=11.11
[6.495365] usb 1-1.6: New USB device strings: Mfr=4, Product=14, 
SerialNumber=0
[6.495371] usb 1-1.6: Product: Touchscreen
[6.495375] usb 1-1.6: Manufacturer: ELAN
[6.576712] usb 1-1.7: new high-speed USB device number 5 using ehci-pci
[6.685553] usb 1-1.7: New USB device found, idVendor=0bda, idProduct=0129, 
bcdDevice=39.60
[6.685565] usb 1-1.7: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, 
SerialNumber=3
[6.685571] usb 1-1.7: Product: USB2.0-CRW
[6.685575] usb 1-1.7: Manufacturer: Generic
[6.685579] usb 1-1.7: SerialNumber: 2010020139600
[6.772707] usb 1-1.8: new high-speed USB device number 6 using ehci-pci
[6.902694] usbcore: registered new interface driver usbhid
[6.902708] usbhid: USB HID core driver
[   13.423833] usb 1-1.8: New USB device found, idVendor=0bda, idProduct=5754, 
bcdDevice=41.21
[   13.423851] usb 1-1.8: New USB device strings: Mfr=3, Product=1, 
SerialNumber=2
[   13.423862] usb 1-1.8: Product: Integrated_Webcam_HD
[   13.423870] usb 1-1.8: Manufacturer: CN06307G7248745OB3VRA00
[   13.423876] usb 1-1.8: SerialNumber: 200901010001
[   13.426904] usbcore: registered new interface driver rtsx_usb
[   57.988717] usb 2-2: new low-speed USB device number 2 using xhci_hcd
[   58.139680] usb 2-2: New USB device found, idVendor=275d, idProduct=0ba6, 
bcdDevice= 1.00
[   58.139693] usb 2-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=0, Product=1, SerialNumber=0
[   58.139699] usb 2-2: Product: USB OPTICAL MOUSE
[   58.143196] input: USB OPTICAL MOUSE  as 
/devices/pci:00/:00:14.0/usb2/2-2/2-2:1.0/0003:275D:0BA6.0002/input/input11
[   58.143433] hid-generic 0003:275D:0BA6.0002: input,hidraw1: USB HID v1.11 
Mouse [USB OPTICAL MOUSE ] on usb-:00:14.0-2/input0
[   58.744716] usb 1-1.3: new low-speed USB device number 7 using ehci-pci
[   58.858361] usb 1-1.3: New USB device found, idVendor=1a2c, idProduct=0e24, 
bcdDevice= 1.10
[   58.858374] usb 1-1.3: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, 
SerialNumber=0
[   58.858380] usb 1-1.3: Product: USB Keyboard
[   58.858384] usb 1-1.3

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Dan Ritter]

Jeremy Nicoll wrote: 
> I keep hoping that my next laptop will have a backlit
> keyboard but very often the machines I choose (for
> other higher-priority criteria) don't have them.
> 
> I've also tried a few clip-on mini lights (plugged into a
> spare USB socket) but many such lights come with poor
> quality clips &/ cables that are too short to reach the
> USB socket of choice (or indeed any USB socket). 

IKEA sells the Jansjo USB LED, $7.99, which has about
20cm of gooseneck which will hold its shape quite well in any
shape except straight out sideways -- then it will droop.

-dsr-

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Thu, 21 Dec 2023, at 13:36, songbird wrote:

> i've
> already worn some of letters off the keys.  :(  but, well, i got
> it on sale for about $30 so i really can't complain.

For years I've used Dymo labels to replace keyboard legends.
(Not the 1960s/1970s thick 3d labels, but 'printed' ones).  After
sticking individual letters onto keytops (usually using tweezers
to position them as accurately as possible) I put mutiple coats
of clear nail varnish over them - which seems to lengthen their
life & help to hold down the edges of the stickers.

When they eventually need replaced it's sometimes difficult 
to get a Dymo letter off a key, needing something sharp (eg
a needle or scalpel) to lift the sticky label off the key.

Then I clean the key with isopropyl alcohol (as used eg for
cleaning heads on tape recorders), & make & attach a new
label.

Mostly I use Dymo media corresponding to the colour 
scheme of the original keyboard, but - eg on a laptop
which has white legends on black keys - I've replaced
some legends with "black print on yellow tape" labels
which are much easier to see and provide me with a
few visual landmarks on the keyboard ... which helps me
when I don't yet quite need to put a room light on.

I keep hoping that my next laptop will have a backlit
keyboard but very often the machines I choose (for
other higher-priority criteria) don't have them.

I've also tried a few clip-on mini lights (plugged into a
spare USB socket) but many such lights come with poor
quality clips &/ cables that are too short to reach the
USB socket of choice (or indeed any USB socket). 

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[songbird]

James H. H. Lampert wrote:
> On 12/20/23 11:30 AM, Jeremy Nicoll wrote:
>> Until about a year ago my experience with Logitech mice had been
>> good.  Those that had died normally did so after falling off a desk,
>> which I don't really see as a manufacturing fault.
>> 
>> But since then several I've bought have all failed with the problem of
>> LMB sending double-clicks when pressed once.  That includes two
>> separate "Pebble" mice.
>
> I've also been sticking with Logitech mice for many years. Specifically, 
> M100/B100/M110, 
>
> But my brand-loyalty has been eroding, because they've been cheapening 
> their product. In particular, it wasn't that long ago that, without 
> changing the model number, or making any public announcement, they 
> pulled support for PS/2 (and therefore for passive PS/2 adapters) from 
> what had been, up until then, dual-mode mice. Not a major problem for 
> Linux, running on current hardware, but a *very* major problem for me, 
> because I also run DOS (IBM PC/DOS 2000, with no WinDoze whatsoever) on 
> antique hardware.
>
> Fortunately, I live and work near what can only be described as a 
> computer junk shop, where finding antique hardware, some of it still 
> new-in-box, is not terribly difficult.
>
> But I can definitely confirm that Logitech is NOT making mice like they 
> used to.

  true, my M325 is doing the quick double clicks recently.  :(

  i'd love a converted Model M with a long (12ft) USB cable.
but i won't buy a new keyboard that is all plastic because 
they just bend too much and then fail.


> If only Unicomp made a mouse as good as their keyboards . . . .

  sadly i have two of them which failed too soon because they
don't have a sold base.  when used as lapkeyboards they stopped
sending the correct signals.  i switched to a Logitech K840 
which does have a solid base and it works, but i hate how stiff
it feels and it's been fading somewhat on me recently and needing
repeat key presses at some times to get a key to register.  i've
already worn some of letters off the keys.  :(  but, well, i got
it on sale for about $30 so i really can't complain.

  i won't buy any more keyboards from them because it costs
as much to fix them as it does to buy a new one.  i haven't
figured out how to fix them myself, but it would be nice to
see any vids where someone takes one apart and puts one back
together again and it actually works (note: i haven't looked 
recently).


  songbird

[SOLVED?] Re: Mouse single click handling?

[local10]

Dec 19, 2023, 16:36 by to...@tuxteam.de:

> Here's someone offering a patch for xserver-xorg-input-evdev:
>
>  https://blog.guntram.de/?p=16
>
> and this is someone reporting on how to build for Ubuntu:
>
>  
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/321816/mouse-sometimes-doubleclicks-when-i-click-once
>
> so yes, it seems you are not alone :-)
>


Will mark it as SOLVED in case if the solution that has worked for me ( 
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/12/msg01048.html ) doesn't work for 
someone.
Regards,

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 12/20/23 1:06 PM, Cindy Sue Causey wrote:

I finally switched tactics last year and tried gaming mice. I thought
about the way they're used. It's comparable to how much I click for
emails and research related to ongoing Life.. shtuff.


The main reason why I avoid gaming mice is because they tend to be 
loaded down with unnecessary bells and whistles.


Again, if only Unicomp offered mice that were built like their 
keyboards. . . .


--
JHHL

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Cindy Sue Causey]

On 12/19/23, local10  wrote:
> Dec 19, 2023, 15:30 by hfollm...@itcfollmann.com:
>
>> I have to ask: are you currently located at a remote location like the
>> ISS
>> station or similar?
>
> No, nothing like that.
>
>> Why would you go down this rabbit hole when the right
>> thing is to replace faulty hardware especially when it is cheap hardware?
>
> I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail with the
> same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps there was a way to
> fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12 months.

Same has been my experience for over two decades. I used to feel
blessed if they would last six months. I finally switched tactics last
year and tried gaming mice. I thought about the way they're used. It's
comparable to how much I click for emails and research related to
ongoing Life.. shtuff.

If I can help it, I'll never buy a "regular" mouse again. I'm still
poverty level so I buy bottom dollar electronics, used and otherwise.
If you can find "cheap" new gaming mice, the price kind of evens out
with buying multiple regular mice during a specific time period. That
means it's longer in between those times of frustration when they fizz
out always at just the wrong time.

In thinking more on it, I've tripped into a couple sales where the
alleged "gaming" mouse was the price of regular ones. Yeah, in that
case it might be purely about the appearance of gaming and not the
mechanics, but those mice still lasted longer so something was
thankfully also tougher under the hood, maybe just enough to satisfy
average (novice) consumers' expectations. :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA
* runs with birdseed *

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[James H. H. Lampert]

On 12/20/23 11:30 AM, Jeremy Nicoll wrote:

Until about a year ago my experience with Logitech mice had been
good.  Those that had died normally did so after falling off a desk,
which I don't really see as a manufacturing fault.

But since then several I've bought have all failed with the problem of
LMB sending double-clicks when pressed once.  That includes two
separate "Pebble" mice.


I've also been sticking with Logitech mice for many years. Specifically, 
M100/B100/M110, 


But my brand-loyalty has been eroding, because they've been cheapening 
their product. In particular, it wasn't that long ago that, without 
changing the model number, or making any public announcement, they 
pulled support for PS/2 (and therefore for passive PS/2 adapters) from 
what had been, up until then, dual-mode mice. Not a major problem for 
Linux, running on current hardware, but a *very* major problem for me, 
because I also run DOS (IBM PC/DOS 2000, with no WinDoze whatsoever) on 
antique hardware.


Fortunately, I live and work near what can only be described as a 
computer junk shop, where finding antique hardware, some of it still 
new-in-box, is not terribly difficult.


But I can definitely confirm that Logitech is NOT making mice like they 
used to.


If only Unicomp made a mouse as good as their keyboards . . . .

--
James H. H. Lampert

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Wed, 20 Dec 2023, at 04:25, Charles Curley wrote:

> I suggest you buy a different rodent. I bought three Logitech rodents
> some years ago on sale for $10 each. All three still work quite well.

Until about a year ago my experience with Logitech mice had been
good.  Those that had died normally did so after falling off a desk,
which I don't really see as a manufacturing fault.

But since then several I've bought have all failed with the problem of
LMB sending double-clicks when pressed once.  That includes two 
separate "Pebble" mice.

I read through a LOT of reviews on amazon uk, for cheap & pricey
Logitech mice & discovered lots of people had similar experiences
- that recent products don't seem to have the quality that older 
ones had.

(In my case I need wireless optical mice, as they're often used running
on a bed sheet under a duvet, with the laptop on an overbed table.)


For now I'm using an Anker vertical mouse, which has lasted longer
than the previous Logitech mice.  It too has fallen to the floor a few
times, but I have a theory that its odd body shape means that it 
tends to hit the floor then roll over (like a landing paratrooper)
which damages it less than traditionally shaped rodents).

As a side issue, the vertical form-factor - once I got used to it - 
has proved more comfortable for use when sitting up in bed,
using the mouse approx half-way between my bum & knee,
either on top of or underneath the duvet.

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[local10]

Dec 20, 2023, 15:22 by noloa...@gmail.com:

> And here's the bug report: <> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=413502> >
>


I was following this bug but it didn't help me, probably because the system 
sees it as two single clicks that happen quickly one after another, not a 
double click.

Regards,

[SOLVED] Re: Mouse single click handling?

[local10]

Dec 20, 2023, 14:57 by anssi.sa...@debian-user.mail.kapsi.fi:

> BTW, you might be able to use working switches from your other mice as
> spare parts if you want to fix one.
>

That's a good idea though I ended up doing what Tom had suggested: 
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/12/msg00950.html

The small boards (one on each side) on which the switches are located were a 
bit loose in their cradles and could move 1-2mm when under pressure. So I added 
a small piece of double-folded duct tape to make their placement in the cradles 
a bit more secure. That seems to have fixed the issue.

Regards,

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Dec 20, 2023 at 10:18 AM Jeffrey Walton  wrote:
>
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 2:53 PM local10  wrote:
> >
> > I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes 
> > generate two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a 
> > single click.
> >
> > With reference to the above, is there a way or setting to force several 
> > mouse clicks within a short period of time to be interpreted as a single 
> > mouse click?
> [...]
>
> Double click speed is pretty common. I am surprised to see it is not
> part of the Mouse Control Setting, but it is what it is...

And here's the bug report: <https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=413502>

Jeff

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 2:53 PM local10  wrote:
>
> I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes 
> generate two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a 
> single click.
>
> With reference to the above, is there a way or setting to force several mouse 
> clicks within a short period of time to be interpreted as a single mouse 
> click?

I think it depends on whether you are using Wayland or X11, and
whether libinput is being used. Some things, like disabling the
trackpad when a mouse is plugged in, requires a X11+libinput and a
custom libinput rule. It cannot be done on Wayland because Wayland
lacks the equivalent setting.

Double click speed is pretty common. I am surprised to see it is not
part of the Mouse Control Setting, but it is what it is... To change
it with X11+libinput, see
<https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/s3rxt7/any_way_to_adjust_the_doubletripleclick_delay/>.
I would be surprised to learn Wayland does not have an equivalent
setting.

You

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Anssi Saari]

local10  writes:

> It's a Logitech Trackman Marble Trackball mouse (T-BC21 model). I like
> this model but for some reason they just don't seem to last as long as
> they used to.

Maybe they have cost reduced it so much it doesn't last as well any
more. Looks like there are some other models from Logitech and
Kensington and others still in production, maybe one of those could work
better?

BTW, you might be able to use working switches from your other mice as
spare parts if you want to fix one.

I've never had a trackball, I think a friend of mine had one back in the
90s which is when I may have used one...

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Dan Purgert]

On Dec 19, 2023, Felix Miata wrote:
> Alexander V. Makartsev composed on 2023-12-19 11:37 (UTC-0500):
> 
> > local10 wrote:
> 
> >> I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they
> >> sometimes generate two single clicks very quickly (say, within
> >> 10-20ms) instead of a single click.
> > This is a very common problem with micro-switches inside computer mice, 
> > mechanical keyboards, etc.
> > They wear out with use and has to be replaced, given that they are very 
> > inexpensive, standardized and relatively easy to replace.
> > Here is a link to PDF datasheet [1] for Omron D2F series switches 
> > specifications.
> > You need a switch with pin plunger and compatible terminals, those 
> > depend on mice model.
> > You can buy them at local electronics store, order them from China 
> > (AliExpress), or from any other reputable source.
> 
> > [1] https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-d2f.pdf
> 
> Can you suggest any particular online source in North America that
> sells those switches? I had no success trying to refurb one in my
> invaluable Logitech Trackman Marble FX PS/2 trackball. It took 2 hours
> to get that tiny switch back together after disassembly and cleaning.
> :( A Kensington Orbit I had much better luck with cleaning, so didn't
> need a new switch.

Mouser () or Digikey () both
carry the D2F series. They're both wonderful to work with, although I
prefer Digikey's parametric search over Mouser.


-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860


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Re: OT: Pitfalls of online purchases (Was Re: Mouse single clickhandling?)

[gene heskett]

On 12/20/23 02:48, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:

On 19.12.2023 23:48, Felix Miata wrote:


Can you suggest any particular online source in North America that sells those
switches? I had no success trying to refurb one in my invaluable Logitech 
Trackman
Marble FX PS/2 trackball. It took 2 hours to get that tiny switch back together
after disassembly and cleaning. :( A Kensington Orbit I had much better luck 
with
cleaning, so didn't need a new switch.

I can't unfortunately.


AliExpress is reputable? That's news to me. I ordered something from it 20 
months
ago. There was a lot of back and forth email between us before I actually got
something a month later that turned out to be used rather than new, and just as
broken as the original part I was trying to replace. My credit card company
eventually issued a refund after I explained all that happened. That particular
card I rarely used, and hadn't for a number of months before that online 
purchase
or for several months after. 3 months or so after the refund, there were 4 cash
advances issued on it totaling around $8,000 on the other side of an ocean I had
never crossed. Those got reversed, but my credit rating dropped 100 points and
hasn't come near recovering.

I share information only about my own experiences with AliExpress.
It might be very hard to find a good and reliable store there, but at 
least their official support and "dispute-system" are working fine.
The important part is that you have to keep all transactions, 
communications, chats within AliExpress platform.
Never agree to switch to email or any other resource for conversations 
with sellers. It's just asking to be scammed and AliExpress official 
customer service will be unable to help you.
I had to open disputes a few times and usually AliExpress officials 
step-in and resolve the dispute in customer's favor, unless the dispute 
is unreasonable and there is no evidence.
The whole shopping experience there could be daunting, there is simply 
too much stores and wares to choose from and their site is not helping, 
by being difficult and slow.
IMO it is too much of a risk to buy anything expensive there, given that 
postal service might smash the package during delivery, but ordering 
something like electronic components, hand tools, repair equipment, 
spare parts, etc, should be fine.
I had to order spare LCD screens and fragile repair equipment from 
reputable shops a few times. All delivered without damages.
Sometimes shops send items with a wrong part number, I had to start 
disputes explaining the problems and return items back. All returns were 
refunded back to my debit card.
I've never encountered any problems with payments or refunds, and their 
Escrow-account protection ensures that money will be released to the 
seller only after customer has received what they ordered.
I've heard there is a frequent "carder" and "skimmer" problem in the 
United States [1], so those issued card advances you had might be 
nothing to do with AliExpress, if you paid using their platform.
Anyway, I've used many cards throughout the years to pay for goods on 
AliExpress and never encountered any suspicious activities.
I also extra careful when I have to reveal my card information online 
and when I use ATMs.


I can't agree with that summation. They, AFAIAC, Now OWE ME AROUND 1800 
USD.  I bought a voron trident kit thru them that came in a badly 
damaged box for about $1750 with shipping.  But it came with only 1/4th 
of the plastic parts, and the packing in the box had no empty place 
where it might have been. I yelled, eventually getting files to print 
about half of the missing plastic. In the middle of all that, aliexress, 
based on what I wasn't told, did an automatic receipt which paid the 
vender and I've received no further comm with the vendor, I bought thru 
them 3 other times and the shipments have been to a bogus address and 
returned killing 2 or 3 months to get that squared away.  So I deal with 
them only when I cannot find it on amazon. That printer I paid $1750 
for?  is assembled frame only, I'm using for a parts warehouse. 
Otherwise its classic Chinese BBLB crap.


[1] https://krebsonsecurity.com/?s=carder+skimmer
--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

OT: Pitfalls of online purchases (Was Re: Mouse single click handling?)

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 19.12.2023 23:48, Felix Miata wrote:


Can you suggest any particular online source in North America that sells those
switches? I had no success trying to refurb one in my invaluable Logitech 
Trackman
Marble FX PS/2 trackball. It took 2 hours to get that tiny switch back together
after disassembly and cleaning. :( A Kensington Orbit I had much better luck 
with
cleaning, so didn't need a new switch.

I can't unfortunately.


AliExpress is reputable? That's news to me. I ordered something from it 20 
months
ago. There was a lot of back and forth email between us before I actually got
something a month later that turned out to be used rather than new, and just as
broken as the original part I was trying to replace. My credit card company
eventually issued a refund after I explained all that happened. That particular
card I rarely used, and hadn't for a number of months before that online 
purchase
or for several months after. 3 months or so after the refund, there were 4 cash
advances issued on it totaling around $8,000 on the other side of an ocean I had
never crossed. Those got reversed, but my credit rating dropped 100 points and
hasn't come near recovering.

I share information only about my own experiences with AliExpress.
It might be very hard to find a good and reliable store there, but at 
least their official support and "dispute-system" are working fine.
The important part is that you have to keep all transactions, 
communications, chats within AliExpress platform.
Never agree to switch to email or any other resource for conversations 
with sellers. It's just asking to be scammed and AliExpress official 
customer service will be unable to help you.
I had to open disputes a few times and usually AliExpress officials 
step-in and resolve the dispute in customer's favor, unless the dispute 
is unreasonable and there is no evidence.
The whole shopping experience there could be daunting, there is simply 
too much stores and wares to choose from and their site is not helping, 
by being difficult and slow.
IMO it is too much of a risk to buy anything expensive there, given that 
postal service might smash the package during delivery, but ordering 
something like electronic components, hand tools, repair equipment, 
spare parts, etc, should be fine.
I had to order spare LCD screens and fragile repair equipment from 
reputable shops a few times. All delivered without damages.
Sometimes shops send items with a wrong part number, I had to start 
disputes explaining the problems and return items back. All returns were 
refunded back to my debit card.
I've never encountered any problems with payments or refunds, and their 
Escrow-account protection ensures that money will be released to the 
seller only after customer has received what they ordered.
I've heard there is a frequent "carder" and "skimmer" problem in the 
United States [1], so those issued card advances you had might be 
nothing to do with AliExpress, if you paid using their platform.
Anyway, I've used many cards throughout the years to pay for goods on 
AliExpress and never encountered any suspicious activities.
I also extra careful when I have to reveal my card information online 
and when I use ATMs.



[1] https://krebsonsecurity.com/?s=carder+skimmer
--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[tomas]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 11:56:29PM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> >> FWIW there's a case to be made that "The Right Thing" is to try and
> >> reduce consumption of resources, and prolonging the use of hardware
> >> falls in this category.
> > One's time is also a finite resource.
> 
> Yup.  But the OP seemed to have at least some time/motivation to try and
> workout a solution other than replacing the device.

Some people have learnt their Huxley by heart. "Better ending than
mending"

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Stefan Monnier]

>> FWIW there's a case to be made that "The Right Thing" is to try and
>> reduce consumption of resources, and prolonging the use of hardware
>> falls in this category.
> One's time is also a finite resource.

Yup.  But the OP seemed to have at least some time/motivation to try and
workout a solution other than replacing the device.


Stefan

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Charles Curley]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 10:43:37 -0500
Stefan Monnier  wrote:

> FWIW there's a case to be made that "The Right Thing" is to try and
> reduce consumption of resources, and prolonging the use of hardware
> falls in this category.

One's time is also a finite resource.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Charles Curley]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 17:01:46 +0100 (CET)
local10  wrote:

> I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail
> with the same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps
> there was a way to fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12
> months.

I suggest you buy a different rodent. I bought three Logitech rodents
some years ago on sale for $10 each. All three still work quite well.

ID 046d:c517 Logitech, Inc. LX710 Cordless Desktop Laser

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Felix Miata]

Fred composed on 2023-12-19 18:04 (UTC-0700):

> Felix Miata wrote:

>> invaluable Logitech Trackman
>> Marble FX PS/2 trackball. 

Nothing like it has been manufactured since it was discontinued nearly 3 
decades ago.

> digikey.com and mouser.com both have microswitches and good service.  It 
> will be a lot easier to throw the mouse away and get a new one.  They 
> are almost dirt cheap.

Not trackballs like a Marble FX, at any price. Caps are about the only things on
digikey and mouser I can ever find to match need. Identifying what I need among
the bazillion choices of almost but not quite they stock is the usual problem.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Fred]

On 12/19/23 11:48, Felix Miata wrote:

Alexander V. Makartsev composed on 2023-12-19 11:37 (UTC-0500):


local10 wrote:



I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes generate 
two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a single click.

This is a very common problem with micro-switches inside computer mice,
mechanical keyboards, etc.
They wear out with use and has to be replaced, given that they are very
inexpensive, standardized and relatively easy to replace.
Here is a link to PDF datasheet [1] for Omron D2F series switches
specifications.
You need a switch with pin plunger and compatible terminals, those
depend on mice model.
You can buy them at local electronics store, order them from China
(AliExpress), or from any other reputable source.



[1] https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-d2f.pdf


Can you suggest any particular online source in North America that sells those
switches? I had no success trying to refurb one in my invaluable Logitech 
Trackman
Marble FX PS/2 trackball. It took 2 hours to get that tiny switch back together
after disassembly and cleaning. :( A Kensington Orbit I had much better luck 
with
cleaning, so didn't need a new switch.

AliExpress is reputable? That's news to me. I ordered something from it 20 
months
ago. There was a lot of back and forth email between us before I actually got
something a month later that turned out to be used rather than new, and just as
broken as the original part I was trying to replace. My credit card company
eventually issued a refund after I explained all that happened. That particular
card I rarely used, and hadn't for a number of months before that online 
purchase
or for several months after. 3 months or so after the refund, there were 4 cash
advances issued on it totaling around $8,000 on the other side of an ocean I had
never crossed. Those got reversed, but my credit rating dropped 100 points and
hasn't come near recovering.

Hi,

digikey.com and mouser.com both have microswitches and good service.  It 
will be a lot easier to throw the mouse away and get a new one.  They 
are almost dirt cheap.


Best regards,
Fred

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[local10]

Dec 19, 2023, 18:41 by ale...@nanoid.net:

> Been there done that. Cheap mice have cheap switches which fail sooner
> than later. Gaming mice are more expensive, but they are rated for 10-
> 20million clicks. Way more than than the cheap ones. In the long run
> those gaming mice come cheaper. I have an Evga X3 mouse at work i got
> in 2018. It still works and it cost just 30 euros.
>


It's a Logitech Trackman Marble Trackball mouse (T-BC21 model). I like this 
model but for some reason they just don't seem to last as long as they used to.

Regards,

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Felix Miata]

Alexander V. Makartsev composed on 2023-12-19 11:37 (UTC-0500):

> local10 wrote:

>> I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes 
>> generate two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a 
>> single click.
> This is a very common problem with micro-switches inside computer mice, 
> mechanical keyboards, etc.
> They wear out with use and has to be replaced, given that they are very 
> inexpensive, standardized and relatively easy to replace.
> Here is a link to PDF datasheet [1] for Omron D2F series switches 
> specifications.
> You need a switch with pin plunger and compatible terminals, those 
> depend on mice model.
> You can buy them at local electronics store, order them from China 
> (AliExpress), or from any other reputable source.

> [1] https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-d2f.pdf

Can you suggest any particular online source in North America that sells those
switches? I had no success trying to refurb one in my invaluable Logitech 
Trackman
Marble FX PS/2 trackball. It took 2 hours to get that tiny switch back together
after disassembly and cleaning. :( A Kensington Orbit I had much better luck 
with
cleaning, so didn't need a new switch.

AliExpress is reputable? That's news to me. I ordered something from it 20 
months
ago. There was a lot of back and forth email between us before I actually got
something a month later that turned out to be used rather than new, and just as
broken as the original part I was trying to replace. My credit card company
eventually issued a refund after I explained all that happened. That particular
card I rarely used, and hadn't for a number of months before that online 
purchase
or for several months after. 3 months or so after the refund, there were 4 cash
advances issued on it totaling around $8,000 on the other side of an ocean I had
never crossed. Those got reversed, but my credit rating dropped 100 points and
hasn't come near recovering.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is, like religion,
based on faith, not based on science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[tomas]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 08:40:56PM +0200, Alexis Grigoriou wrote:
> On Tue, 2023-12-19 at 17:01 +0100, local10 wrote:
> > Dec 19, 2023, 15:30 by hfollm...@itcfollmann.com:
> > 
> > I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail
> > with the same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps
> > there was a way to fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12
> > months.
> > 
> 
> Been there done that. Cheap mice have cheap switches which fail sooner
> than later. Gaming mice are more expensive, but they are rated for 10-
> 20million clicks. Way more than than the cheap ones. In the long run
> those gaming mice come cheaper. I have an Evga X3 mouse at work i got
> in 2018. It still works and it cost just 30 euros.

As I said, I fixed a couple of them where the switches weren't the
failure, but rather the mechanical transmission, which became "too
short" (most probably because the frame around it became too long).
A thin shim did the trick.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Alexis Grigoriou]

On Tue, 2023-12-19 at 17:01 +0100, local10 wrote:
> Dec 19, 2023, 15:30 by hfollm...@itcfollmann.com:
> 
> I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail
> with the same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps
> there was a way to fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12
> months.
> 

Been there done that. Cheap mice have cheap switches which fail sooner
than later. Gaming mice are more expensive, but they are rated for 10-
20million clicks. Way more than than the cheap ones. In the long run
those gaming mice come cheaper. I have an Evga X3 mouse at work i got
in 2018. It still works and it cost just 30 euros.

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Brad Rogers]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2023 17:01:46 +0100 (CET)
local10  wrote:

Hello local10,

> So I thought perhaps there was a way to fix them instead of buying a
> new one every 6-12 months.

Replace the flaky switch.  If you're not happy wielding a soldering
iron, get a friend to do it - assuming you know someone competent at
soldering.

Failing that, when you come to buy a new mouse, pay more;  That way, one
would hope, that the quality of parts would be better, making for a
longer life.

My mouse developed similar behaviour;  LMB(1) became very touchy.  I
replaced the switch about three years ago and am still using the same
device now.  The mouse is now over a decade old.

Also, it's a good idea to give your mouse a darn good clean every now
and then.  This means taking it apart to get all the dust and other cruft
out that accumulates over time.

(1)  IME it's almost always LMB that fails - it gets far more use than
RMB.

-- 
 Regards  _   "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
 / )  "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad   "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Early morning when I wake up I look like Kiss but without the make-up
Strong - Robbie Williams


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Re: Mouse single click handling?

[gene heskett]

On 12/19/23 10:11, local10 wrote:

Hi,

I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes generate 
two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a single click.

With reference to the above, is there a way or setting to force several mouse 
clicks within a short period of time to be interpreted as a single mouse click?

Thanks
Thats in the mouse, caused by the switch not being solidly against the 
pcb its mounted to by solder so it flexes, eventually breaking the 
copper foil of the trace, so it issues a click as you push the button, 
but breaks contac as your fingeer pushes ion down, the makes the second 
contact as the switch comes back then the switch opens, creating two 
clicks for the motion of one. Sometimes you can lay a piece of wrapping 
wire around the switches pin, and extend it across the micro-crack after 
scraping off the green masking paint and rigging some sort of a clamp to 
hold the switch against the pcb solidly so it doesn't re-break your fix. 
 Its a fiddly PITA. 30+ years ago I had to keep a pile of Amiga mice 
working at the tv station where I was the CE.  The Amiga mouses motion 
encoders were unique as they were miniature quadrature encoders, much 
smoother and far more instant and accurate than any "pc" mouse even 
today, if you ever used one you will remember how easy it was to do 
precise work, and no one but Amiga (commode door) ever made replacements 
as it took an ultra fine 9 wire cable to talk to it.  We stretched what 
we had well past their geriatric years fixing them as best I could. 
Today the spastic junk we can get at Wallies isn't made to be fixed, 
just toss it and get another $9 model.  Problem solved, for a while.


Operating System: Debian GNU/Linux 12
KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.5  KDE Frameworks Version: 5.103.0  Qt Version: 5.15.8
Kernel Version: 6.1.0-15-amd64 (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 19.12.2023 21:41, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 09:37:20PM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:

On 19.12.2023 20:04, local10 wrote:

Hi,

I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes generate 
two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a single click.

This is a very common problem with micro-switches inside computer mice,
mechanical keyboards, etc.
They wear out with use and has to be replaced, given that they are very
inexpensive, standardized and relatively easy to replace.

I've had some success inserting a thin shim between plunger and
switch, on the theory that the whole thing (plunger, switch, mount
on the PCB) get shortened/worn out on use.

Usually it is gunk and taint getting accumulated on metal contacts inside.
If you really have to repair a micro-switch without soldering, you can 
disassemble them, clean thoroughly contacts inside and metal plate with 
Isopropyl alcohol, let it dry out and reassemble.

Required tools:
1. Needle to pry open a plastic cap and tweezers (those could be bought 
at hardware store)

2. Steady hands (can't be bought)
3. Good eyesight (you guessed it, also can't be bought).


--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[local10]

Dec 19, 2023, 16:37 by to...@tuxteam.de:

> Here's someone offering a patch for xserver-xorg-input-evdev:
>
>  https://blog.guntram.de/?p=16
>
> and this is someone reporting on how to build for Ubuntu:
>
>  
> https://askubuntu.com/questions/321816/mouse-sometimes-doubleclicks-when-i-click-once
>
> so yes, it seems you are not alone :-)
>


I will look into it. Thanks to everyone who responded.

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Curt]

On 2023-12-19,   wrote:
>
>
> But at the end, that's how most (reaonably complex) hardware works :)
>

Surely there must be superior and inferior mice. Maybe the OP should try
another brand. Or has she?

Up on the ISS, I would suppose they use touch screens, as floating mice
would be a novelty.

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[tomas]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 09:37:20PM +0500, Alexander V. Makartsev wrote:
> On 19.12.2023 20:04, local10 wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes 
> > generate two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a 
> > single click.
> This is a very common problem with micro-switches inside computer mice,
> mechanical keyboards, etc.
> They wear out with use and has to be replaced, given that they are very
> inexpensive, standardized and relatively easy to replace.

I've had some success inserting a thin shim between plunger and
switch, on the theory that the whole thing (plunger, switch, mount
on the PCB) get shortened/worn out on use.

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[tomas]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 11:31:21AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 05:01:46PM +0100, local10 wrote:
> > I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail with the
> > same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps there was a way to
> > fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12 months.
> 
> If you can fix the hardware, sure.
> 
> Putting crazy workaround hacks in the drivers is not a fix, though.

But at the end, that's how most (reaonably complex) hardware works :)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Alexander V. Makartsev]

On 19.12.2023 20:04, local10 wrote:

Hi,

I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes generate 
two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a single click.
This is a very common problem with micro-switches inside computer mice, 
mechanical keyboards, etc.
They wear out with use and has to be replaced, given that they are very 
inexpensive, standardized and relatively easy to replace.
Here is a link to PDF datasheet [1] for Omron D2F series switches 
specifications.
You need a switch with pin plunger and compatible terminals, those 
depend on mice model.
You can buy them at local electronics store, order them from China 
(AliExpress), or from any other reputable source.



[1] https://omronfs.omron.com/en_US/ecb/products/pdf/en-d2f.pdf
--
With kindest regards, Alexander.

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian - The universal operating system
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://www.debian.org
⠈⠳⣄

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[tomas]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 05:01:46PM +0100, local10 wrote:
> Dec 19, 2023, 15:30 by hfollm...@itcfollmann.com:
> 
> > I have to ask: are you currently located at a remote location like the ISS
> > station or similar?
> >
> 
> No, nothing like that.
> 
> 
> > Why would you go down this rabbit hole when the right
> > thing is to replace faulty hardware especially when it is cheap hardware?
> >
> 
> 
> I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail with the 
> same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps there was a way to 
> fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12 months.

Here's someone offering a patch for xserver-xorg-input-evdev:

   https://blog.guntram.de/?p=16

and this is someone reporting on how to build for Ubuntu:

  
https://askubuntu.com/questions/321816/mouse-sometimes-doubleclicks-when-i-click-once

so yes, it seems you are not alone :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 05:01:46PM +0100, local10 wrote:
> I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail with the
> same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps there was a way to
> fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12 months.

If you can fix the hardware, sure.

Putting crazy workaround hacks in the drivers is not a fix, though.

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[tomas]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 10:29:33AM -0500, Henning Follmann wrote:

[...]

> I have to ask: are you currently located at a remote location like the ISS
> station or similar? [...]

Bad mood, today?

Cheer up
-- 
t


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Re: Mouse single click handling?

[local10]

Dec 19, 2023, 15:30 by hfollm...@itcfollmann.com:

> I have to ask: are you currently located at a remote location like the ISS
> station or similar?
>

No, nothing like that.


> Why would you go down this rabbit hole when the right
> thing is to replace faulty hardware especially when it is cheap hardware?
>


I've been replacing them, I have 4-5 mice like that, they all fail with the 
same defect after 6-12 months or so. So I thought perhaps there was a way to 
fix them instead of buying a new one every 6-12 months.

Regards,

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Stefan Monnier]

> I have to ask: are you currently located at a remote location like the ISS
> station or similar? Why would you go down this rabbit hole when the right
> thing is to replace faulty hardware especially when it is cheap hardware?

FWIW there's a case to be made that "The Right Thing" is to try and
reduce consumption of resources, and prolonging the use of hardware falls
in this category.

This said, fully working mouses are thrown out on a regular basis at
most large organisations, so it's probably a lost battle.  But maybe the
OP's mouse have some characteristic which makes it harder to find
worthy replacements.

I'd encourage the OP to try and add support for such "debounce" support in
the drivers.  If for no other reason than the satisfaction of having
done the right thing and the feeling of empowerment one gets from molding
the software to one's own needs (enabled by Free Software).


Stefan

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Henning Follmann]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2023 at 04:04:19PM +0100, local10 wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes 
> generate two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a 
> single click.
> 
> With reference to the above, is there a way or setting to force several mouse 
> clicks within a short period of time to be interpreted as a single mouse 
> click?
> 
> Thanks
> 

I have to ask: are you currently located at a remote location like the ISS
station or similar? Why would you go down this rabbit hole when the right
thing is to replace faulty hardware especially when it is cheap hardware?

-H


-- 
Henning Follmann   | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com

Re: Mouse single click handling?

[Dan Purgert]

On Dec 19, 2023, local10 wrote:
> I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes
> generate two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead
> of a single click.
> 
> With reference to the above, is there a way or setting to force
> several mouse clicks within a short period of time to be interpreted
> as a single mouse click?

As far as I'm aware, there are no "low-pass" options in the drivers /
software to accommodate the case when the mechanical parts in the mouse
start sending spurious clicks, thanks to the contacts / springs / etc.
wearing out.  

It'd probably be less effort to just replace the failing switch(es) in
the mouse than trying to add that to the software.


-- 
|_|O|_|
|_|_|O| Github: https://github.com/dpurgert
|O|O|O| PGP: DDAB 23FB 19FA 7D85 1CC1  E067 6D65 70E5 4CE7 2860


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Description: PGP signature

Mouse single click handling?

[local10]

Hi,

I have several mice that went bad with the same defect: they sometimes generate 
two single clicks very quickly (say, within 10-20ms) instead of a single click.

With reference to the above, is there a way or setting to force several mouse 
clicks within a short period of time to be interpreted as a single mouse click?

Thanks

Operating System: Debian GNU/Linux 12
KDE Plasma Version: 5.27.5  KDE Frameworks Version: 5.103.0  Qt Version: 5.15.8
Kernel Version: 6.1.0-15-amd64 (64-bit)
Graphics Platform: X11

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[David Christensen]

On 7/9/23 12:26, Maureen L Thomas wrote:

On 7/9/23 12:37 AM, David Christensen wrote:

On 7/8/23 20:13, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in one 
computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, 



8 GB seems small.  Do you mean 8 TB?


No it is a one year old mahine and it has 2 gigabytes as does my back up dish 
which is Toshiba 2 GB drive.


On 7/9/23 12:45, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
> I stand corrected my hdd is 1 terabyte and the ram is 8gb.  I am not
> sure I can expand that but I will find out.


8 GB of memory and a 1 TB hard disk drive should be enough for typical 
desktop usage.




On 7/8/23 20:13, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
Inetl core i3-9100T CPU 310 GHz, Realtec 8821CE wireless lan 802.1ac 
PCI-E Nic.


When I shutdown I get the following message:  stop job is run for 
Clam Antivirus userspace daian   /1min40S  and them failed unmount /var.



Have you installed any software via any means other than a Debian 
package management tool such as apt-get(8)? 


No only thur the apt-get system.



Okay.


When I boot up 1.290210] mce:[Hardware Error[:  CPU 0:  Machine 
Check: 0 Bank 9: ae36


1,290283] mce: [Hardware Error]: TSC 0 ADDR 8d387240 MISC 704086 
and then


1.290354] mce: [Hardware error]: Processor 0:906eb TIME 1688865217 
Socket 0 C O microcode f0



Also my system freezes, I thought it was just the mouse but it is the 
whole system.  It usually happens when I have more than four windows 
open or after I play music.  I have absolutely no idea what is going 
on.  Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


Have you been keeping system administration records and have you been 
creating archives, images, and backups as I previously suggested?


https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/05/msg00714.html

I have saved all my files on a second HD and the log files in a file I 
created for them.  I looked at the one you suggested but could not 
figure it out.



Keeping system administration notes is a good practice.  Keep it up.


So long as you have backups by any means, that is good.  Learning a 
packaged backup system can be a long-range goal.



Similarly, images via dd(1) and/or a package such as Clonezilla can be a 
long-range goal.  In the mean time, the alternative is re-installing.



Failing power supplies can be maddening to troubleshoot.  The way to 
find out is to use a hardware power supply tester.  I bought an 
inexpensive Antec ATX12V tester years ago; there are several newer 
models to choose from.



Another reader suggested that the problems may be caused by memory 
errors.  The way to find out is to download memtest86+, burn it to 
bootable media, and run it:


https://memtest.org/


Your computer may have a UEFI built-in self-test suite.  If so, run it.


David

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Maureen L Thomas]

I stand corrected my hdd is 1 terabyte and the ram is 8gb.  I am not 
sure I can expand that but I will find out.


On 7/9/23 3:07 AM, Bret Busby wrote:

On 9/7/23 15:03, Bret Busby wrote:

On 9/7/23 12:37, David Christensen wrote:

On 7/8/23 20:13, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in 
one computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, 



8 GB seems small.  Do you mean 8 TB?




I am wondering whether the 8GB refers to the amount of the RAM, and 
the reference to the HDD is the type, without the capacity?





And, in that, if the computer's amount of RAM, is only 8GB, what is 
the size of the swap partition? If the computer has only 8GB RAM, 
then, I suggest that at least a 32GB swap partition is required.


.
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
.

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Maureen L Thomas]

On 7/9/23 12:37 AM, David Christensen wrote:

On 7/8/23 20:13, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in one 
computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, 



8 GB seems small.  Do you mean 8 TB?   No it is a one year old mahine 
and it has 2 gigabytes as does my back up dish which is Toshiba 2 GB 
drive.



Inetl core i3-9100T CPU 310 GHz, Realtec 8821CE wireless lan 802.1ac 
PCI-E Nic.


When I shutdown I get the following message:  stop job is run for 
Clam Antivirus userspace daian   /1min40S  and them failed unmount /var.



Have you installed any software via any means other than a Debian 
package management tool such as apt-get(8)? No only thur the apt-get 
system.





When I boot up 1.290210] mce:[Hardware Error[:  CPU 0:  Machine 
Check: 0 Bank 9: ae36


1,290283] mce: [Hardware Error]: TSC 0 ADDR 8d387240 MISC 704086 
and then


1.290354] mce: [Hardware error]: Processor 0:906eb TIME 1688865217 
Socket 0 C O microcode f0



Also my system freezes, I thought it was just the mouse but it is the 
whole system.  It usually happens when I have more than four windows 
open or after I play music.  I have absolutely no idea what is going 
on.  Your help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.


Moe



Have you been keeping system administration records and have you been 
creating archives, images, and backups as I previously suggested?   I 
have saved all my files on a second HD and the log files in a file I 
created for them.  I looked at the one you suggested but could not 
figure it out.


https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/05/msg00714.html


David

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Anssi Saari]

Stefan Monnier  writes:

>>> computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, Inetl core i3-9100T CPU 310
>> Bank 9 suggests that the main memory might be ECC memory?
>
> Hmm... according to Wikipedia the i3-9100T does not support ECC memory.

Intel says otherwise.

https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/134871/intel-core-i39100t-processor-6m-cache-up-to-3-70-ghz.html

For general information, Intel used to have ECC support in some Core i3
and Celeron CPUs, for example I have a Celeron G1610T in my old HP
Microserver server with ECC support.

This was really nice for cheap file server boxes but those days are gone.

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Stefan Monnier]

>> I am wondering whether the 8GB refers to the amount of the RAM, and the
>> reference to the HDD is the type, without the capacity?
> And, in that, if the computer's amount of RAM, is only 8GB, what is the size
> of the swap partition?  If the computer has only 8GB RAM, then, I suggest
> that at least a 32GB swap partition is required.

Since when does a GNU/Linux desktop need more than 8GB?


Stefan "running Firefox in 3GB of RAM"


PS: Yes, I know that the amd64 build of some programs require insane
amounts of address space nowadays (e.g. in my tests, Firefox refused
to even start if you `limit addressspace 16G'), but that's address
space, not real RAM or swap.

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Stefan Monnier]

>> computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, Inetl core i3-9100T CPU 310
> Bank 9 suggests that the main memory might be ECC memory?

Hmm... according to Wikipedia the i3-9100T does not support ECC memory.


Stefan

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sat, Jul 08, 2023 at 11:13:11PM -0400, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
> So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in one
> computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, Inetl core i3-9100T CPU 310
> GHz, Realtec 8821CE wireless lan 802.1ac PCI-E Nic.
> 
> When I shutdown I get the following message:  stop job is run for Clam
> Antivirus userspace daian   /1min40S  and them failed unmount /var.
> 

Some services take a long time to stop - I'm guessing clamav may be one of
them. Not sure why you should then get a failed unmount of /var - that could
be the first error.

> When I boot up 1.290210] mce:[Hardware Error[:  CPU 0:  Machine Check: 0
> Bank 9: ae36
> 

This looks like it might be a memory error to me: Bank 9 suggests that.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine-check_exception explains MCE in more 
detail

> 1,290283] mce: [Hardware Error]: TSC 0 ADDR 8d387240 MISC 704086    and
> then
> 

That also looks like a memory address

> 1.290354] mce: [Hardware error]: Processor 0:906eb TIME 1688865217 Socket 0
> C O microcode f0
> 

Just reporting the error
> 
> Also my system freezes, I thought it was just the mouse but it is the whole
> system.  It usually happens when I have more than four windows open or after
> I play music.  I have absolutely no idea what is going on.  Your help would
> be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.
> 

It sounds as if something is happening when it hits a particular memory 
address.

Bank 9 suggests that the main memory might be ECC memory?

If you can, get someone to open the case - remove dust, check fans, check
no obvious signs of overheating. Reseat memory sticks,

You don't say how old the machine is - the above would be a good plan
anyway.

All the very best, as ever,

Andy Cater
> Moe

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Bret Busby]

On 9/7/23 15:03, Bret Busby wrote:

On 9/7/23 12:37, David Christensen wrote:

On 7/8/23 20:13, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in one 
computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, 



8 GB seems small.  Do you mean 8 TB?




I am wondering whether the 8GB refers to the amount of the RAM, and the 
reference to the HDD is the type, without the capacity?





And, in that, if the computer's amount of RAM, is only 8GB, what is the 
size of the swap partition? If the computer has only 8GB RAM, then, I 
suggest that at least a 32GB swap partition is required.


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[Bret Busby]

On 9/7/23 12:37, David Christensen wrote:

On 7/8/23 20:13, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in one 
computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, 



8 GB seems small.  Do you mean 8 TB?




I am wondering whether the 8GB refers to the amount of the RAM, and the 
reference to the HDD is the type, without the capacity?


..
Bret Busby
Armadale
West Australia
(UTC+0800)
..

Re: Freezing mouse and other suff

[David Christensen]

On 7/8/23 20:13, Maureen L Thomas wrote:
So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in one 
computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, 



8 GB seems small.  Do you mean 8 TB?


Inetl core i3-9100T CPU 
310 GHz, Realtec 8821CE wireless lan 802.1ac PCI-E Nic.


When I shutdown I get the following message:  stop job is run for Clam 
Antivirus userspace daian   /1min40S  and them failed unmount /var.



Have you installed any software via any means other than a Debian 
package management tool such as apt-get(8)?





When I boot up 1.290210] mce:[Hardware Error[:  CPU 0:  Machine Check: 0 
Bank 9: ae36


1,290283] mce: [Hardware Error]: TSC 0 ADDR 8d387240 MISC 704086 and 
then


1.290354] mce: [Hardware error]: Processor 0:906eb TIME 1688865217 
Socket 0 C O microcode f0



Also my system freezes, I thought it was just the mouse but it is the 
whole system.  It usually happens when I have more than four windows 
open or after I play music.  I have absolutely no idea what is going 
on.  Your help would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.


Moe



Have you been keeping system administration records and have you been 
creating archives, images, and backups as I previously suggested?


https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2023/05/msg00714.html


David

Freezing mouse and other suff

[Maureen L Thomas]

So I have the latest stable Debian installed on my Lenova all in one 
computer.  I have an 8gb seagate ATA  harddrive, Inetl core i3-9100T CPU 
310 GHz, Realtec 8821CE wireless lan 802.1ac PCI-E Nic.


When I shutdown I get the following message:  stop job is run for Clam 
Antivirus userspace daian   /1min40S  and them failed unmount /var.


When I boot up 1.290210] mce:[Hardware Error[:  CPU 0:  Machine Check: 0 
Bank 9: ae36


1,290283] mce: [Hardware Error]: TSC 0 ADDR 8d387240 MISC 704086    
and then


1.290354] mce: [Hardware error]: Processor 0:906eb TIME 1688865217 
Socket 0 C O microcode f0



Also my system freezes, I thought it was just the mouse but it is the 
whole system.  It usually happens when I have more than four windows 
open or after I play music.  I have absolutely no idea what is going 
on.  Your help would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you.


Moe

Re: Settings: focus when mouse over window?

[tomas]

On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 07:41:35PM +0200, Anders Andersson wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 6:44 AM  wrote:
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 12:08:29AM -0400, Nicholas Papadonis wrote:
> >
> > > I have the default Gnome WM installed.  Does it provide a similar option?
> >
> > I did a web search (no, not the google) with the terms
> >
> >   gnome metacity "focus follows mouse"
> >
> > (metacity is, AFAIK, Gnome's window manager) and the
> > answer seems to be... complex [...]

> I don't know why you would force "metacity" in there, it's *not* the
> window manager, so no wonder you get weird results.

[...]

As I said, my last interaction with Gnome is long time ago.
These days I don't use a desktop environment at all.

Cheers & thanks for the clarifications.

-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Settings: focus when mouse over window?

[Anders Andersson]

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 6:44 AM  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 12:08:29AM -0400, Nicholas Papadonis wrote:
>
> > I have the default Gnome WM installed.  Does it provide a similar option?
>
> I did a web search (no, not the google) with the terms
>
>   gnome metacity "focus follows mouse"
>
> (metacity is, AFAIK, Gnome's window manager) and the
> answer seems to be... complex: it depends on whether
> you use Wayland or not. It seems to "kind of work",
> but in different ways.
>
> Look also for "sloppy focus": in general you don't want
> your focused window to lose focus when you move the
> pointer to the "background window". But perhaps you do
> want that.

I don't know why you would force "metacity" in there, it's *not* the
window manager, so no wonder you get weird results.

Just enable "Focus on Hover" in the Gnome Tweaks settings: "Window is
focused when hovered with the pointer. Windows remain focused when the
desktop is hovered."

It has worked flawlessly for ages, as long as I've used Gnome 3 (the
default in debian for a long time), and there's no difference in
behaviour between wayland and xorg.

Re: Settings: focus when mouse over window?

[tomas]

On Thu, Jun 01, 2023 at 12:08:29AM -0400, Nicholas Papadonis wrote:

(please, don't top post: this makes mailing lists unreadable)

> I have the default Gnome WM installed.  Does it provide a similar option?

I did a web search (no, not the google) with the terms

  gnome metacity "focus follows mouse"

(metacity is, AFAIK, Gnome's window manager) and the
answer seems to be... complex: it depends on whether
you use Wayland or not. It seems to "kind of work",
but in different ways.

Look also for "sloppy focus": in general you don't want
your focused window to lose focus when you move the
pointer to the "background window". But perhaps you do
want that.

That all said, back then (> 10 years, so take this with
two fists of salt), when I tried that with Gnome, I never
found a satisfying setup. It seems the devels themselves
don't try that out very much.

And oh, yet another thing: of course, these days, where
half of the life happens in lots of little badly written
"applications" whithin the browser, all of them with
their half-implemented window manager... be prepared
to have some... media discontinuities (I hate browsers
for that).

Cheers
-- 
t


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Settings: focus when mouse over window?

[tomas]

On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 10:00:13PM -0600, Charles Curley wrote:
> On Wed, 31 May 2023 23:53:35 -0400
> Nicholas Papadonis  wrote:
> 
> > I installed Debian 11.  Does anyone know how to get this
> > functionality?  I looked through settings however didn't see an
> > option.
> 
> That would depend on which desktop you installed. In XFCE, Settings ->
> Window Manager -> Focus Model -> Focus follows mouse, and Raise on
> focus.

FWIW, I am one of those who have "focus follows mouse" and NOT "raise
on focus": I like typing into a terminal, for example, even when some
part of it is obscured. But then, I don't have XFCE, either :-)

> Does anybody read signatures any more?

I think I've read this somewhere...

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Settings: focus when mouse over window?

[Nicholas Papadonis]

I have the default Gnome WM installed.  Does it provide a similar option?

On Thu, Jun 1, 2023 at 12:02 AM Charles Curley <
charlescur...@charlescurley.com> wrote:

> On Wed, 31 May 2023 23:53:35 -0400
> Nicholas Papadonis  wrote:
>
> > I installed Debian 11.  Does anyone know how to get this
> > functionality?  I looked through settings however didn't see an
> > option.
>
> That would depend on which desktop you installed. In XFCE, Settings ->
> Window Manager -> Focus Model -> Focus follows mouse, and Raise on
> focus.
>
> --
> Does anybody read signatures any more?
>
> https://charlescurley.com
> https://charlescurley.com/blog/
>
>

Re: Settings: focus when mouse over window?

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 31 May 2023 23:53:35 -0400
Nicholas Papadonis  wrote:

> I installed Debian 11.  Does anyone know how to get this
> functionality?  I looked through settings however didn't see an
> option.

That would depend on which desktop you installed. In XFCE, Settings ->
Window Manager -> Focus Model -> Focus follows mouse, and Raise on
focus.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Settings: focus when mouse over window?

[Nicholas Papadonis]

I installed Debian 11.  Does anyone know how to get this functionality?  I
looked through settings however didn't see an option.

Re: [SOLVED] Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[gene heskett]

On 5/18/23 01:29, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 07:01:30PM +0100, Joe wrote:


Oh dear, oh dear...

Very sorry for the wasted time.

When I tried the wired mouse I did not actually unplug the wireless
mouse receiver, so it was still generating scroll events every 200ms


\o/

No wasted time. Everyone got to sharpen their debugging tools.

The nicest part is, this person (it was Kent West, I think) who
suggested electromagnetic interference wasn't that off the mark
(I was one of those saying "nah, not the hardware..." :-)

Thanks for resolving the suspense.

Cheers


And Kent was probably right, the mouse battery died, the receiver upped 
the gain, and something in the environment was making enough noise it 
was being interpreted as a wheel related signal.

As a broadcast engineer I can easily visualize that.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/>

Re: [SOLVED] Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[tomas]

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 07:01:30PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> 
> Oh dear, oh dear...
> 
> Very sorry for the wasted time.
> 
> When I tried the wired mouse I did not actually unplug the wireless
> mouse receiver, so it was still generating scroll events every 200ms

\o/

No wasted time. Everyone got to sharpen their debugging tools.

The nicest part is, this person (it was Kent West, I think) who
suggested electromagnetic interference wasn't that off the mark
(I was one of those saying "nah, not the hardware..." :-)

Thanks for resolving the suspense.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: [SOLVED] Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 19:01:30 +0100
Joe  wrote:

> Quick removal and replacement of mouse battery and problem solved.

Interesting. Usually when my rodent batteries fail, it simply stops
working.

XFCE's power monitor also see the batteries for my keyboards and
rodents. Logitech k330 and m215, respectively. You may need to install
it.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: [SOLVED] Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Wed, May 17, 2023 at 07:01:30PM +0100 schrieb Joe:

Hello Joe,
> 
> Oh dear, oh dear...
> 
> Very sorry for the wasted time.
This has been no wasted time. You have found an additional root cause
for some unexpected behaviour all of us will be aware of from now on.
> 
> When I tried the wired mouse I did not actually unplug the wireless
> mouse receiver, so it was still generating scroll events every 200ms
> while over a window (presumably being ignored by the kernel when it was
> over unscrollable things like the background and panels.
> 
> Quick removal and replacement of mouse battery and problem solved.
And again we can blame the hardware :-).
> 
> As partial reparation, could I recommend evemu-tools to anyone who
> doesn't know about it? Cleans up that nasty raw output from cat
> /dev/input/mouseX and adds times. Problem solved immediately with its
> help.
This is good to know.
> 
> OK, I can't explain why Knoppix didn't also do it, the mouse was still
> generating masses of scroll events. That really messed up the
> troubleshooting. Knoppix doesn't have evemu-tools, but the raw mouse
> events were enough by that time.
It can be that the xinput of Knoppix is configured to do more
de-bouncing of scroll events than the Debian system. You reported that
Knoppix has been very slow. It could also be that Knoppix could not
handle all the mouse events and did the de-bouncing by unintended
throttling :-).

Thank you for reporting about the fix and for the recommendation!

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.


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Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Joe]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 12:18:17 +0200
Christoph Brinkhaus  wrote:

> Am Tue, May 16, 2023 at 07:26:41PM +0100 schrieb Joe:
> 
> Hello Joe,
> 
> > On Tue, 16 May 2023 12:29:02 +0200
> > Christoph Brinkhaus  wrote:
> >   
> > > Am Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:02:50AM +0100 schrieb Joe:
> > > 
> > > Hello Joe,
> > > 
> > > [...deleted a lot...]  
> > > > On Tue, 16 May 2023 10:44:03 +0100
> > > > Joe  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > > One idea is to try a minimalistic window manager as twm to
> > > > > > find out if the issue is related to xfce.  
> > > > > 
> > > > > OK, tried twm and fvvm. Both unusable, as a left-click brings
> > > > > up a menu for a fraction of a second. Couldn't log out of
> > > > > either, had to switch to console and uninstall them. But they
> > > > > confirm the mouse problem. It's obviously fairly fundamental.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Just tried previous kernel, but also bad. I can assume by now
> > > > > that nobody else has seen this problem.
> > > > 
> > > > Just as a sanity check, I booted Knoppix, and of course there's
> > > > no problem, it's just an order of magnitude too slow from USB
> > > > to do anything useful.
> > > 
> > > Now it seems as if the issue is related to X or the driver stuff.
> > > I have three ideas.
> > > 
> > > 1. Do you have any xorg.conf things in /etc or the related
> > > directories? Nowadays X is not so bad in guessing the hardware
> > > which makes xorg.conf and such obsolete. If there are X config
> > > files it might be worth to move them to a safe place and to try
> > > without them.  
> > 
> > I can't find anything. This is a relatively new sid (installed on
> > new hardware, opportunity to get rid of some junk) and I have never
> > needed to mess about with X.  
> > > 
> > > 2. It is unlikely, but it might be that some of the xinput related
> > > programs or libraries have been corrupted. It might help to
> > > reinstall them.  
> > 
> > I have nothing in the apt cache, so I'll need to locate debs. I
> > eventually gave up and copied out the (possibly) offending upgrade
> > log and added newlines so it was actually readable. What jumped out
> > then were three xserver packages (from a total of 118). I located
> > previous versions in the cache, installed them, rebooted and
> > confirmed they were now running, and... just the same.   
> 
> My only remaining idea is that packages have been corrupted during
> download. This is not likely but can have multiple root causes.
> 
> I do not know if apt or dpkg check the integrity of the packages
> before installation. I also do not know by heart how to check them
> manually.
> 
> If this does not help I am running out of ideas.

Me too.

> I do not think that it is a hardware issue because Knoppix works.
> I do not think that it is a general issue of sid because then the same
> issue would have been seen by other users.
> It should be related to "something" on your machine.

Yes, to all of that. I'm getting closer to reinstalling, which is an
admission of defeat.

Thank you for your time and efforts, and everyone else who responded.
If I do have any success I'll report back. As well as the bug report...

Joe

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Tue, May 16, 2023 at 07:26:41PM +0100 schrieb Joe:

Hello Joe,

> On Tue, 16 May 2023 12:29:02 +0200
> Christoph Brinkhaus  wrote:
> 
> > Am Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:02:50AM +0100 schrieb Joe:
> > 
> > Hello Joe,
> > 
> > [...deleted a lot...]
> > > On Tue, 16 May 2023 10:44:03 +0100
> > > Joe  wrote:
> > >   
> > > > > One idea is to try a minimalistic window manager as twm to find
> > > > > out if the issue is related to xfce.
> > > > 
> > > > OK, tried twm and fvvm. Both unusable, as a left-click brings up a
> > > > menu for a fraction of a second. Couldn't log out of either, had
> > > > to switch to console and uninstall them. But they confirm the
> > > > mouse problem. It's obviously fairly fundamental.
> > > > 
> > > > Just tried previous kernel, but also bad. I can assume by now that
> > > > nobody else has seen this problem.  
> > > 
> > > Just as a sanity check, I booted Knoppix, and of course there's no
> > > problem, it's just an order of magnitude too slow from USB to do
> > > anything useful.  
> > 
> > Now it seems as if the issue is related to X or the driver stuff.
> > I have three ideas.
> > 
> > 1. Do you have any xorg.conf things in /etc or the related
> > directories? Nowadays X is not so bad in guessing the hardware which
> > makes xorg.conf and such obsolete. If there are X config files it
> > might be worth to move them to a safe place and to try without them.
> 
> I can't find anything. This is a relatively new sid (installed on new
> hardware, opportunity to get rid of some junk) and I have never needed
> to mess about with X.
> > 
> > 2. It is unlikely, but it might be that some of the xinput related
> > programs or libraries have been corrupted. It might help to reinstall
> > them.
> 
> I have nothing in the apt cache, so I'll need to locate debs. I
> eventually gave up and copied out the (possibly) offending upgrade log
> and added newlines so it was actually readable. What jumped out then
> were three xserver packages (from a total of 118). I located previous
> versions in the cache, installed them, rebooted and confirmed they were
> now running, and... just the same. 

My only remaining idea is that packages have been corrupted during
download. This is not likely but can have multiple root causes.

I do not know if apt or dpkg check the integrity of the packages
before installation. I also do not know by heart how to check them
manually.

If this does not help I am running out of ideas.
I do not think that it is a hardware issue because Knoppix works.
I do not think that it is a general issue of sid because then the same
issue would have been seen by other users.
It should be related to "something" on your machine.

> > 
> > 3. The comparison of Xorg.log of Debian and Knoppix may give some
> > indication.
> 
> They look broadly similar, although it is easy to miss things among
> that much output.

I wish you will find the issue. In case I will have new ideas or so
I will chime in again.

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Joe]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 10:07:42 +0100
Joe  wrote:


> > 
> > If you are able to get a terminal running under your
> > crippled X11 [1], then it'd be interesting to compare
> > the output of "xinput --list --long" between a working
> > and a non-working config.  
> 
> OK, done for sid, I'll boot into Knoppix when I have a moment.
> > 

There's only one difference, repeated in three places:

Sid version:

⎜   ↳ MOSART Semi. 2.4G Wireless Mouse  id=9
[slave  pointer  (2)] Reporting 7 classes:
Class originated from: 9. Type: XIButtonClass
Buttons supported: 9
Button labels: "Button Left" "Button Middle" "Button
Right" "Button Wheel Up" "Button Wheel Down" "Button Horiz Wheel Left"
"Button Horiz Wheel Right" "Button Side" "Button Extra" Button state:
Class originated from: 9. Type: XIValuatorClass Detail for Valuator 0:
  Label: Rel X
  Range: -1.00 - -1.00
  Resolution: 0 units/m
  Mode: relative
Class originated from: 9. Type: XIValuatorClass
Detail for Valuator 1:
  Label: Rel Y
  Range: -1.00 - -1.00
  Resolution: 0 units/m
  Mode: relative
Class originated from: 9. Type: XIValuatorClass
Detail for Valuator 2:
  Label: Rel Horiz Scroll
  Range: -1.00 - -1.00
  Resolution: 0 units/m
  Mode: relative
Class originated from: 9. Type: XIValuatorClass
Detail for Valuator 3:
  Label: Rel Vert Scroll
  Range: -1.00 - -1.00
  Resolution: 0 units/m
  Mode: relative
Class originated from: 9. Type: XIScrollClass
Scroll info for Valuator 2
  type: 2 (horizontal)
  increment: 120.00
  flags: 0x0
Class originated from: 9. Type: XIScrollClass
Scroll info for Valuator 3
  type: 1 (vertical)
  increment: 120.00
  flags: 0x0


34c34
< increment: 120.00
---
> increment: 15.00

I don't know how significant this is. The scroll wheel in both distros
seems to work normally, and it's the interpretation of a mouseover as a
click or scroll which is the problem.

-- 
Joe

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Joe]

On Wed, 17 May 2023 06:35:54 +0200
 wrote:

> On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 08:07:51PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > On Tue, 16 May 2023 13:43:26 -0500
> > Kent West  wrote:
> >   
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Just for kicks, unplug the keyboard and see if the mouse starts
> > > behaving.  
> > 
> > 
> > No, no change.  
> 
> No surprise. People still barking up the hardware tree,
> while all evidence is pointing up the software tree :)

I think so.
> 
>  - change came with an upgrade

Probably, nothing else was changed or installed around that time. I
have rolled back the kernel and the three xserver packages to no effect,
and there seem to be no other possible suspects. But there were 118
packages, including several libraries.

>  - change from wireless mouse to wired: no effect
>  - other distro: mouse works
> 
> If you are able to get a terminal running under your
> crippled X11 [1], then it'd be interesting to compare
> the output of "xinput --list --long" between a working
> and a non-working config.

OK, done for sid, I'll boot into Knoppix when I have a moment.
> 
> My hunch would be that something's rotten in the state
> of Sid.

Definitely. I'm hoping to avoid reinstalling, at least partly because I
may well just reinstall the problem, but GIMP and.some other things are
unusable at the moment. 
> 
>
Thanks for your help.

Joe

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[tomas]

On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 06:35:54AM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> [1] Never tried it, but "setxkbmap -option keypad:pointerkeys"

Forgot the relevant link:

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_keys

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[tomas]

On Tue, May 16, 2023 at 08:07:51PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> On Tue, 16 May 2023 13:43:26 -0500
> Kent West  wrote:
> 
> > 
> > 
> > Just for kicks, unplug the keyboard and see if the mouse starts
> > behaving.
> 
> 
> No, no change.

No surprise. People still barking up the hardware tree,
while all evidence is pointing up the software tree :)

 - change came with an upgrade
 - change from wireless mouse to wired: no effect
 - other distro: mouse works

If you are able to get a terminal running under your
crippled X11 [1], then it'd be interesting to compare
the output of "xinput --list --long" between a working
and a non-working config.

My hunch would be that something's rotten in the state
of Sid.

Cheers

[1] Never tried it, but "setxkbmap -option keypad:pointerkeys"
   reportedly gives you a keyboard mouse:
   setxkbmap -option keypad:pointerkeys.
   Alternatively, you can always log into a Linux terminal
   and talk to your X like so:
   DISPLAY=:0 xinput --list --long
   (or whatever your DISPLAY var under X is).

-- 
tomás


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Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Kent West]

Just for kicks, unplug the keyboard and see if the mouse starts behaving.

>
>

-- 
Kent West<")))><
IT Support / Client Support
Abilene Christian University
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Joe]

On Tue, 16 May 2023 12:29:02 +0200
Christoph Brinkhaus  wrote:

> Am Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:02:50AM +0100 schrieb Joe:
> 
> Hello Joe,
> 
> [...deleted a lot...]
> > On Tue, 16 May 2023 10:44:03 +0100
> > Joe  wrote:
> >   
> > > > One idea is to try a minimalistic window manager as twm to find
> > > > out if the issue is related to xfce.
> > > 
> > > OK, tried twm and fvvm. Both unusable, as a left-click brings up a
> > > menu for a fraction of a second. Couldn't log out of either, had
> > > to switch to console and uninstall them. But they confirm the
> > > mouse problem. It's obviously fairly fundamental.
> > > 
> > > Just tried previous kernel, but also bad. I can assume by now that
> > > nobody else has seen this problem.  
> > 
> > Just as a sanity check, I booted Knoppix, and of course there's no
> > problem, it's just an order of magnitude too slow from USB to do
> > anything useful.  
> 
> Now it seems as if the issue is related to X or the driver stuff.
> I have three ideas.
> 
> 1. Do you have any xorg.conf things in /etc or the related
> directories? Nowadays X is not so bad in guessing the hardware which
> makes xorg.conf and such obsolete. If there are X config files it
> might be worth to move them to a safe place and to try without them.

I can't find anything. This is a relatively new sid (installed on new
hardware, opportunity to get rid of some junk) and I have never needed
to mess about with X.
> 
> 2. It is unlikely, but it might be that some of the xinput related
> programs or libraries have been corrupted. It might help to reinstall
> them.

I have nothing in the apt cache, so I'll need to locate debs. I
eventually gave up and copied out the (possibly) offending upgrade log
and added newlines so it was actually readable. What jumped out then
were three xserver packages (from a total of 118). I located previous
versions in the cache, installed them, rebooted and confirmed they were
now running, and... just the same. 
> 
> 3. The comparison of Xorg.log of Debian and Knoppix may give some
> indication.

They look broadly similar, although it is easy to miss things among
that much output.

-- 
Joe

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Christoph Brinkhaus]

Am Tue, May 16, 2023 at 11:02:50AM +0100 schrieb Joe:

Hello Joe,

[...deleted a lot...]
> On Tue, 16 May 2023 10:44:03 +0100
> Joe  wrote:
> 
> > > One idea is to try a minimalistic window manager as twm to find out
> > > if the issue is related to xfce.  
> > 
> > OK, tried twm and fvvm. Both unusable, as a left-click brings up a
> > menu for a fraction of a second. Couldn't log out of either, had to
> > switch to console and uninstall them. But they confirm the mouse
> > problem. It's obviously fairly fundamental.
> > 
> > Just tried previous kernel, but also bad. I can assume by now that
> > nobody else has seen this problem.
> 
> Just as a sanity check, I booted Knoppix, and of course there's no
> problem, it's just an order of magnitude too slow from USB to do
> anything useful.

Now it seems as if the issue is related to X or the driver stuff.
I have three ideas.

1. Do you have any xorg.conf things in /etc or the related
directories? Nowadays X is not so bad in guessing the hardware which
makes xorg.conf and such obsolete. If there are X config files it
might be worth to move them to a safe place and to try without them.

2. It is unlikely, but it might be that some of the xinput related
programs or libraries have been corrupted. It might help to reinstall
them.

3. The comparison of Xorg.log of Debian and Knoppix may give some
indication.

Kind regards,
Christoph
-- 
Ist die Katze gesund
schmeckt sie dem Hund.


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Description: PGP signature

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Joe]

On Tue, 16 May 2023 10:44:03 +0100
Joe  wrote:

> On Mon, 15 May 2023 22:18:12 +0200
> Christoph Brinkhaus  wrote:
> 
> > Am Mon, May 15, 2023 at 08:57:38PM +0100 schrieb Joe:
> > 
> > Hello Joe,
> >   
> > > On Mon, 15 May 2023 19:35:23 +
> > > "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 08:15:42PM +0100, Joe wrote:
> > > > > On Mon, 15 May 2023 13:26:06 -0500
> > > > > Kent West  wrote:
> > > > >   
> > > > > > On 5/15/23 11:57, Joe wrote:  
> > > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > > >  
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Then go from there.
> > > > > >   
> > > > > Not much to go on so far. Thanks for your suggestions. This
> > > > > looks like a bug in an upgrade, but I can't see evidence of
> > > > > anyone else seeing it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This is the real problem with running sid: not that things
> > > > > break, but that they only break for me.
> > > > >   
> > > > 
> > > > If you run sid, you are absolutely expected to be able to
> > > > resolve any problems you encounter. If it breaks, you get to
> > > > keep both pieces. That's the contract with sid, more than with
> > > > the other tranches of Debian (which comes with no overall
> > > > warranty).
> > > > 
> > > > If you want increased stability and less shiny new stuff, you
> > > > run stable or, if you feel able to help debug and develop it,
> > > > testing.
> > > > 
> > > > Them's the breaks: and, as ever, DontBreakDebian by mixing
> > > > different suites.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > Yes, I know all that, I've been running sid since sarge was
> > > stable, and only had to reinstall twice in that time.
> > 
> > One idea is to try a minimalistic window manager as twm to find out
> > if the issue is related to xfce.  
> 
> OK, tried twm and fvvm. Both unusable, as a left-click brings up a
> menu for a fraction of a second. Couldn't log out of either, had to
> switch to console and uninstall them. But they confirm the mouse
> problem. It's obviously fairly fundamental.
> 
> Just tried previous kernel, but also bad. I can assume by now that
> nobody else has seen this problem.

Just as a sanity check, I booted Knoppix, and of course there's no
problem, it's just an order of magnitude too slow from USB to do
anything useful.

-- 
Joe

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Joe]

On Mon, 15 May 2023 22:18:12 +0200
Christoph Brinkhaus  wrote:

> Am Mon, May 15, 2023 at 08:57:38PM +0100 schrieb Joe:
> 
> Hello Joe,
> 
> > On Mon, 15 May 2023 19:35:23 +
> > "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:
> >   
> > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 08:15:42PM +0100, Joe wrote:  
> > > > On Mon, 15 May 2023 13:26:06 -0500
> > > > Kent West  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 5/15/23 11:57, Joe wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > Then go from there.
> > > > > 
> > > > Not much to go on so far. Thanks for your suggestions. This
> > > > looks like a bug in an upgrade, but I can't see evidence of
> > > > anyone else seeing it.
> > > > 
> > > > This is the real problem with running sid: not that things
> > > > break, but that they only break for me.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > If you run sid, you are absolutely expected to be able to resolve
> > > any problems you encounter. If it breaks, you get to keep both
> > > pieces. That's the contract with sid, more than with the other
> > > tranches of Debian (which comes with no overall warranty).
> > > 
> > > If you want increased stability and less shiny new stuff, you run
> > > stable or, if you feel able to help debug and develop it, testing.
> > > 
> > > Them's the breaks: and, as ever, DontBreakDebian by mixing
> > > different suites.
> > >   
> > 
> > Yes, I know all that, I've been running sid since sarge was stable,
> > and only had to reinstall twice in that time.  
> 
> One idea is to try a minimalistic window manager as twm to find out if
> the issue is related to xfce.

OK, tried twm and fvvm. Both unusable, as a left-click brings up a menu
for a fraction of a second. Couldn't log out of either, had to switch
to console and uninstall them. But they confirm the mouse problem. It's
obviously fairly fundamental.

Just tried previous kernel, but also bad. I can assume by now that
nobody else has seen this problem.

Thanks for your help,
Joe

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Joe]

On Mon, 15 May 2023 22:18:12 +0200
Christoph Brinkhaus  wrote:

> Am Mon, May 15, 2023 at 08:57:38PM +0100 schrieb Joe:
> 
> Hello Joe,
> 
> > On Mon, 15 May 2023 19:35:23 +
> > "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:
> >   
> > > On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 08:15:42PM +0100, Joe wrote:  
> > > > On Mon, 15 May 2023 13:26:06 -0500
> > > > Kent West  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > On 5/15/23 11:57, Joe wrote:
> > > > > > Hi,
> > > > > >
> > > > > 
> > > > > Then go from there.
> > > > > 
> > > > Not much to go on so far. Thanks for your suggestions. This
> > > > looks like a bug in an upgrade, but I can't see evidence of
> > > > anyone else seeing it.
> > > > 
> > > > This is the real problem with running sid: not that things
> > > > break, but that they only break for me.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > If you run sid, you are absolutely expected to be able to resolve
> > > any problems you encounter. If it breaks, you get to keep both
> > > pieces. That's the contract with sid, more than with the other
> > > tranches of Debian (which comes with no overall warranty).
> > > 
> > > If you want increased stability and less shiny new stuff, you run
> > > stable or, if you feel able to help debug and develop it, testing.
> > > 
> > > Them's the breaks: and, as ever, DontBreakDebian by mixing
> > > different suites.
> > >   
> > 
> > Yes, I know all that, I've been running sid since sarge was stable,
> > and only had to reinstall twice in that time.  
> 
> One idea is to try a minimalistic window manager as twm to find out if
> the issue is related to xfce.

OK, thank you, busy now, will try later.
> 
> The second idea could be to run apt-get autoremove - but I am not sure
> if this is a good idea for a non standard Debian installation. For the
> standard installations it is recommended to get rid of outdated
> libraries. But since you seem to be a long time Debian user I do not
> tell you anything new.
> 

I did that after the big update, as a kernel was involved and
significant space could be recovered.

Thanks.

-- 
Joe

Re: Mouse trouble on sid

[Kent West]

On Mon, May 15, 2023 at 2:16 PM Joe  wrote:

> On Mon, 15 May 2023 13:26:06 -0500
> Kent West  wrote:
>
> > On 5/15/23 11:57, Joe wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Upgraded sid two days ago for the first time for a week or so. Today
> > > have serious mouse problems. Xfce on AMD. First thing tried of
> > > course was another mouse, just the same.
> > >
> > > The computer is barely usable in this state. There were too many
> > > packages upgraded, including the kernel, to be able to narrow down
> > > the culprit or attempt a rollback, well over 100. Google tells me
> > > various things about making the mouse do things, but they all seem
> > > to involve some extra mouse tweak package, none of which I have
> > > installed.
> >
> >
> > I would boot into the CMOS/BIOS/System Setup, and make sure the mouse
> > works properly there (assuming your hardware has such a setup).
>
> No mouse pointer there.
> >
> > I would try a different (new) user.
>
> Exactly the same.
> >
> > I would try in console-mode only (may have to install 'gpm').
>
> Yes, mouse pointer present in console with gpm running, but I can't
> tell if there's any misbehaviour, it doesn't actually do much. It
> selects in mc, but not in aptitude.
> >
> > Then go from there.
> >
> Not much to go on so far. Thanks for your suggestions. This looks like
> a bug in an upgrade, but I can't see evidence of anyone else seeing it.
>
> This is the real problem with running sid: not that things break, but
> that they only break for me.
>
> --
> Joe
>
>
Do you have a new lamp on your computer desk that's putting out EM?

Is your mouse wireless or wired? Try a different USB port?

-- 
Kent West<")))><
IT Support / Client Support
Abilene Christian University
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com