Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[gene heskett]

On 1/9/24 03:15, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

You ruined my day :-)


It was not my fault. Send complaints to the people who convened as
"High Sierra Group" in 1986.



Something similar to IBM's kludgiest relic of the early 1960s has appeared
in linux?


The unixoid community added System Use Protocol and Rock Ridge Interchange
Protocol in the early 1990s in order to get X/Open functionality on top
of ISO 9660. That's POSIX with long file names (up to 255 bytes) and
paths (up to 1024 bytes) where only 0-byte and '/' have special meanings.

A company Who Must Not Be Named introduced Joliet to store names of up
to 64 characters in a 16 bit character set (while still ignoring the
difference between uppercase and lowercase).

Linux mount(8) introduced a character mapping from the uppercase character
set of ISO 9660 to lowercase. This mapping also removes the version part
of the file names.



The idea that we need version numbers embedded in filenames
involuntarily may be "natural" to somebody.


I have never seen any version other than ";1" (and ISOs which simply
ignore the specs about file names). It's a non-functional relic, which
in Linux can only be uncovered if you suppress Rock Ridge, Joliet, and
name mapping during the mount command.



And I've been an IBM mainframe admin and developer too.


In the times when a full scale mainframe came with a female discus
thrower ?
   http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/5444/images/5444DISK.jpg


Ohmy$DIETY! A trip down memory lane. I recall those things, absolute 
pieces of junk, needed daily 4 hour calibration TLC to make them work 
for a couple hours. In a TI mainframe, circa 1978, these were made by 
dynex.  I do NOT remember them fondly. 5 megabyte capacity. IBM's 8" 
floppies in the system 360 were thousands of times more dependable by 
1985. In those times, my office trs-80 Color Computer had more memory 
than the 360, and with os9 level 2, a mini-unix, was faster than the 360.




Have a nice day :)

You too!


Thomas

.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Nicolas George]

Bret Busby (12024-01-09):
> Whilst, as I previously made the point, this is all off-topic for a Debian
> operating system users mailing list, one (and, only one) of the applications
> of version numbers as part of file descriptors, with (in the case of
> VAX/VMS) up to the last seven versions of a file, being retained, was a
> useful tool for software developers, but, responsible software development,
> and, especially, the teaching of responsible software development, have been
> abandoned, over the last decades.

Could it that “responsible software development” have not been
abandoned, like old geezers like to pretend, but rather has moved to
using solutions that do not suffer the ugly limitations of
implementations in the kernel?

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: PGP signature

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Bret Busby wrote:
> Whilst, as I previously made the point, this is all off-topic for a Debian
> operating system users mailing list

But i found a premium excuse in the debian-cd and debian-live ISOs. :o)


> the last seven versions of a file, being retained, was a
> useful tool for software developers, but, responsible software development,
> and, especially, the teaching of responsible software development, have been
> abandoned, over the last decades.

This has obviously been replaced by Source Code Control System, which
now has its final successor under the name Git.
(A coarse substitute are frequently taken incremental backups.)


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Bret Busby]

On 9/1/24 16:02, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

Hi,

Nicholas Geovanis wrote:







The idea that we need version numbers embedded in filenames
involuntarily may be "natural" to somebody.


I have never seen any version other than ";1" (and ISOs which simply
ignore the specs about file names). It's a non-functional relic, which
in Linux can only be uncovered if you suppress Rock Ridge, Joliet, and
name mapping during the mount command.



And I've been an IBM mainframe admin and developer too.




Whilst, as I previously made the point, this is all off-topic for a 
Debian operating system users mailing list, one (and, only one) of the 
applications of version numbers as part of file descriptors, with (in 
the case of VAX/VMS) up to the last seven versions of a file, being 
retained, was a useful tool for software developers, but, responsible 
software development, and, especially, the teaching of responsible 
software development, have been abandoned, over the last decades.


And, that, in itself, is a good example where reverting to a previous 
version, would be good.



Bret Busby
Armadale
Western Australia
(UTC+0800)
.

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
> You ruined my day :-)

It was not my fault. Send complaints to the people who convened as
"High Sierra Group" in 1986.


> Something similar to IBM's kludgiest relic of the early 1960s has appeared
> in linux?

The unixoid community added System Use Protocol and Rock Ridge Interchange
Protocol in the early 1990s in order to get X/Open functionality on top
of ISO 9660. That's POSIX with long file names (up to 255 bytes) and
paths (up to 1024 bytes) where only 0-byte and '/' have special meanings.

A company Who Must Not Be Named introduced Joliet to store names of up
to 64 characters in a 16 bit character set (while still ignoring the
difference between uppercase and lowercase).

Linux mount(8) introduced a character mapping from the uppercase character
set of ISO 9660 to lowercase. This mapping also removes the version part
of the file names.


> The idea that we need version numbers embedded in filenames
> involuntarily may be "natural" to somebody.

I have never seen any version other than ";1" (and ISOs which simply
ignore the specs about file names). It's a non-functional relic, which
in Linux can only be uncovered if you suppress Rock Ridge, Joliet, and
name mapping during the mount command.


> And I've been an IBM mainframe admin and developer too.

In the times when a full scale mainframe came with a female discus
thrower ?
  http://www.ibmsystem3.nl/5444/images/5444DISK.jpg


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Mon, Jan 8, 2024, 11:38 AM Thomas Schmitt  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Bret Busby wrote:
> > > .;
>
> Jeremy Nicoll wrote:
> > IBM's MVS & its successors, most recently z/OS, have something
> > similar called a GDG (or Generation Data Group).
>
> The principle made it into ISO 9660 specifications.
>
> To make this thread relevant for Debian, let's assume that somebody
> asked about the peculiar filenames in the netinst ISO when mounting
> its plain ISO 9660 personality:
>
>   $ sudo mount -o norock,nojoliet,map=off debian-12.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso
> /mnt/iso
>   mount: /dev/loop0 is write-protected, mounting read-only
>   $ find /mnt/iso
>   /mnt/iso
>   /mnt/iso/BOOT
>   /mnt/iso/BOOT/GRUB
>   /mnt/iso/BOOT/GRUB/EFI.IMG;1
>   /mnt/iso/BOOT/GRUB/FONT.PF2;1
>   ...
>   /mnt/iso/_DISK/MKISOFS.;1
>   /mnt/iso/_DISK/UDEB_INC.;1
>
>
> Have a nice day :)
>

You ruined my day :-)

Something similar to IBM's kludgiest relic of the early 1960s has appeared
in linux? The idea that we need version numbers embedded in filenames
involuntarily may be "natural" to somebody. But just seems sloppy to me.
And I've been an IBM mainframe admin and developer too.


Thomas
>
>

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Niall O'Reilly]

On 8 Jan 2024, at 9:17, Bret Busby wrote:

> But, apart from the functionality that I have not seen in any other operating 
> system, of using an extra file descriptor of version number, so the whole 
> filename would be something like
> .;
> (I am not sure whether that syntax is correct - I have not used VAX/VMS, for 
> about 35-40 years)
> retaining (from memory) up to the last seven versions of a file, really, why 
> bother?

It was also a feature (with slightly different syntax) of DEC's
TOPS-20, before VAX/VMS was released.  I don't recall what the
limit on retained versions was.

...
Niall

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Curt]

On 2024-01-07, Andrew M.A. Cater  wrote:
>
>> Take care, stay warm, well, and unvaxed.
>> ^^^
>
> Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?

Nothing sucks like a VAX!

> All best, as ever,
>
> Andy

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[gene heskett]

On 1/7/24 19:39, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
On Sun, Jan 7, 2024, 4:51 PM Charles Curley 
> wrote:


On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 20:36:12 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater" mailto:amaca...@einval.com>> wrote:

 > > Take care, stay warm, well, and unvaxed.
 > >                             ^^^
 >
 > Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?

Oh, come on! Just because Gene doesn't like certain ancient Digital
Equipment products…?


Come on There has to be a linux-based VAX simulator somewhere out 
there for Gene :-D

So he can practice getting VAXed... :-D
said the man who used to use LSI-11's :-D

Glutton for punishment I take it?


-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?


https://charlescurley.com 
https://charlescurley.com/blog/ 



Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[gene heskett]

On 1/7/24 17:51, Charles Curley wrote:

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 20:36:12 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:


Take care, stay warm, well, and unvaxed.
 ^^^


Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?


Oh, come on! Just because Gene doesn't like certain ancient Digital
Equipment products…?

Chuckle.  That however, does bring back the memories of the PDP-11/23a 
that was supplied by Sci-Atl and CBS to control a 7 meter C-band 
satellite dish, to say it was unstable was the understatement of the 
century.  But it came with a maintenance contract so I let the field 
engineers from DE, worry about it, but everytime it crashed, we lost 
several thou, because we were selling toothpaste instead of dog food, 
and CBS didn't pay us for those mistakes. I grew increasing frustrated 
with DE because in the end, they changed every component in that machine 
but the frame rail with the seriel number. The computer guy in NYC CBS 
HQ finally traded me his test mule figuring he could fix it so we 
updated DE's seriel number list and traded machines.  But, he couldn't 
fix it either, so he then had no test mule to check other stations 
boards and software updates. Then it snowballed from there with CBS 
finally forced to replace every pdp11-23a at their affiliate sites, with 
an I've Been Moved, industrial version pc, and an artic real time 
interface card as a control interface.  His pdp11-23a Just Worked, as 
did the IBM. That of course had a very visible positive effect on our 
P reports.  So yeah, you could say I did not have any great faith in 
DEC. Early on but after the warranty on it expired, it used a DEC VT220 
for local admin stuff. Nothing fancy but when I called DEC looking for a 
HOT for it, was not available but they did have a vt550 they wanted 
nearly 6 grand for, and would not guarantee it would work. CBS could 
call it up on the phone so they did for about 10 days while I reworked a 
vt100 clone that ran on os9, the nix clone for a trs-80 color computer 
3, making a 100% compatible vt220 out of it.  That worked until the IBM 
came in.  So here is a guy named Gene, that has never owned a "PC" cuz I 
was doing things a pc couldn't, on a color computer, switching to the 
Amiga in the 90's, and built my first linux machine, installing RH5.0 on 
it in 1998. Built lots of other machines starting with an RCA 1802, but 
never a VAX.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Mark Fletcher]

Is it supposed to be installed by the net-installer? There does not seem

> to be any man pages other than the bog std stuff. When I found the
> /etc/systemd/timesyncd I immediately asked the system for man timesyncd,
> got this:
> gene@coyote:/etc$ man timesyncd
> No manual entry for timesyncd
>

Try man systemd-timesyncd . Usually the systemd explanations are
systemd-. I’m not at a machine right now to check, but usually
that’s the case.

Mark

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Bret Busby wrote:
> > .;

Jeremy Nicoll wrote:
> IBM's MVS & its successors, most recently z/OS, have something
> similar called a GDG (or Generation Data Group).

The principle made it into ISO 9660 specifications.

To make this thread relevant for Debian, let's assume that somebody
asked about the peculiar filenames in the netinst ISO when mounting
its plain ISO 9660 personality:

  $ sudo mount -o norock,nojoliet,map=off debian-12.2.0-amd64-netinst.iso 
/mnt/iso
  mount: /dev/loop0 is write-protected, mounting read-only
  $ find /mnt/iso
  /mnt/iso
  /mnt/iso/BOOT
  /mnt/iso/BOOT/GRUB
  /mnt/iso/BOOT/GRUB/EFI.IMG;1
  /mnt/iso/BOOT/GRUB/FONT.PF2;1
  ...
  /mnt/iso/_DISK/MKISOFS.;1
  /mnt/iso/_DISK/UDEB_INC.;1


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Jeremy Nicoll]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024, at 09:17, Bret Busby wrote:

> But, apart from the functionality that I have not seen in any other 
> operating system, of using an extra file descriptor of version number, 
> so the whole filename would be something like
> .;

IBM's MVS & its successors, most recently z/OS, have something 
similar called a GDG (or Generation Data Group).

It's handed via system catalogs - which are the indexes which tell
you where specific files are.  Dataset names do not contain disk
(or tape, or virtual tape) names and don't have the sort of 
hierarchical names relating to a root & mount point like most
files in Linux.

For a lot of files the catalogs say which disk a file is currently on
& the disk's "VTOC" - volume table of contents - says where on
the disk that file is.

Anyway if one defines eg 

  DEFINE GENERATIONDATAGROUP -
  (NAME(PQR.TEST.THIS) LIMIT(8) SCRATCH NOEMPTY)

then the system will maintain 8 separate copies of a file
named "PQR.TEST.THIS".  

You can refer to the newest created one as PQR.TEST.THIS(0)
or the next oldest by PQR.TEST.THIS(-1) or its ancestor by
PQR.TEST.THIS(-2) etc.  You can refer to the whole lot (so 
eg to read all the contents of as many of these files as
happen to exist at some point in time) simply by leaving
the (n) part off the name.

To create a new file you refer to PQR.TEST.THIS(+1); after
you finish using the file the system throws away the very 
oldest one & rejigs its index of them all so this latest one
is now able to be referred to via (0) - and the specific 
files previously referred to by -1, -2, -3 etc all shift up by
one.

For the whole duration of the process that creates a new
generation of such a file, the index of subsidiary versions 
is locked so that no other process can simultaneously
create new ones or delete any of them (ie not just delete
the one about to be the oldest, no longer required one).

The files are typically used for storing chunks of 
continuously occurring data, eg transactions or logs. You
might start each business day with no files in such a GDG
then accumulate any number of successive tranches of some
sort of transaction data in them, then - perhaps at the end
of day process the whole lot into one "daily" file & reset 
the GDG ready for the next day's processing.  You might 
then have a set of daily GDGs which get merged into 
weekly files, monthly ones etc.

You can also find out the internal name by which a 
specific generation of the file is named & refer to it
directly, eg PQR.TEST.THIS.G00
- thus meaning one doesn't have to know such a file's
relationship to the successive generation structure.

Back in the 1990s when I last used these there could be
up to 255 or so files in each GDG.  That limit might have
increased since then.

Ref: 
https://www.ibm.com/docs/en/zos/2.2.0?topic=files-processing-generation-data-groups

-- 
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.

Re: VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[Bret Busby]

On 8/1/24 08:44, The Wanderer wrote:

On 2024-01-07 at 19:20, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:


On Sun, Jan 7, 2024, 4:51 PM Charles Curley 
wrote:


On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 20:36:12 +

"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:



Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?


Oh, come on! Just because Gene doesn't like certain ancient Digital
Equipment products…?



Come on There has to be a linux-based VAX simulator somewhere out there
for Gene :-D
So he can practice getting VAXed... :-D
said the man who used to use LSI-11's :-D


$ apt-cache show simh
Package: simh
[...]
Description-en: Emulators for 33 different computers
  This is the SIMH set of emulators for 33 different computers:
[...]
  DEC VAX (but cannot include the microcode due to copyright)


No idea whether it'd be enough, but if anyone does actually want to
pursue the idea, it might be worth looking at.

If anyone really wants to run VAX/VMS, or, another version of VMS, then 
you should read the article at

https://www.theregister.com/2022/08/03/linux_may_soon_lose_support/
which has applicable links.

But, apart from the functionality that I have not seen in any other 
operating system, of using an extra file descriptor of version number, 
so the whole filename would be something like

.;
(I am not sure whether that syntax is correct - I have not used VAX/VMS, 
for about 35-40 years)
retaining (from memory) up to the last seven versions of a file, really, 
why bother?


In these times (and, even back then, when UNIX system V was the main 
UNIX system that was commercially used, and, even when BSD 4.2 was the 
main UNIX version), a decent systems level "C" programmer should be able 
to write a utility to do it.


When I was being taught VAX-FORTRAN (which, from memory, was enhanced 
FORTRAN-77, the last FORTRAN before FORTRAN-90, with FORTRAN-90 
introducing pointers to FORTRAN) and "C", and I remarked that 
VAX-FORTRAN had 8-byte precision, that "C" did not, the "C" lecturer 
simply said that a "C" programmer could create the data type, and write 
the maths libraries, to deal with it.


So, running VAX/VMS, or a version  of the VMS operating system, is a bit 
like running XENIX or MINIX, or, like a friend of that time, who had an 
operational PDP on his flat (apartment) balcony, that he had obtained an 
kept for playing with octal programming. It would, I expect6, be done 
for no other reason, than the sake of doing it.


But, all of that, and, the subject and thread of this message thread, 
are completely off-topic, for a Debian operating system mailing list, I 
think.



Bret Busby
Armadale
Western Australia
(UTC+0800)
.

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Charles Kroeger]

> Quit using Google search.  Use DuckDuckGo.

Use StartPage instead, aka ixquick.com

-- 
System Information
GTK 3.24.39 / GLib 2.78.3
Locale: en_US.UTF-8 (charset: UTF-8)
Operating System: Linux 6.6.9-amd64 (x86_64)

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Charles Curley]

On Mon, 8 Jan 2024 10:02:25 +0700
Max Nikulin  wrote:

> Isn't it /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf, not /etc/systemd/timesyncd? It 
> might be a reason why systemd-timesyncd did not follow configuration.

It is indeed /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf. However, there is also
/etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf.d/, so one may drop local configurations
into place without mucking in timesyncd.conf.

Since systemd-timesyncd provides /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf, changes
to it will likely be overwritten on the next upgrade to
systemd-timesyncd.

I have:

root@jhegaala:~# ls /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf.d/
50localTimeServers.conf
root@jhegaala:~# cat /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf.d/50localTimeServers.conf 
[Time]
NTP=192.168.100.12 192.168.100.6 
# File of local time servers provided via DHCP and 60ntp.
root@jhegaala:~# 

60ntp is my own script which picks up time servers from DHCP
information and which is run by Network Manager. This machine is a
laptop.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Max Nikulin]

On 08/01/2024 03:36, Andrew M.A. Cater wrote:

On Sun, Jan 07, 2024 at 02:51:26PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

gene@coyote:/etc$ man timesyncd
No manual entry for timesyncd

What package contains the manpages for a bookworm amd64 install I expect to
do anything I might want to do?


apt install manpages (as noted in a message above earlier in the thread).


Just to avoid possible confusion. Installing of the manpages package 
will not make man pages for all debian packages available locally. E.g. 
systemd-timesyncd(8) is shipped in the systemd-timesyncd package. It is 
great that https://manpages.debian.org exists and allows to read docs 
before installing a package.

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Max Nikulin]

On 08/01/2024 02:51, gene heskett wrote:
When I found the /etc/systemd/timesyncd I immediately asked the system 
for man timesyncd, got this:

gene@coyote:/etc$ man timesyncd
No manual entry for timesyncd


Isn't it /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf, not /etc/systemd/timesyncd? It 
might be a reason why systemd-timesyncd did not follow configuration.


Did looked into this file? On Debian 12 bookworm it contains (I have no 
idea concerning modification by Chinese 3d printers manufacturers on the 
top of Debian-derivatives):


 # See timesyncd.conf(5) for details.

I do not see any problem with the /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf file 
documented in "man timesyncd.conf".


Besides appropos(1) (or "man -k") and "systemctl help" already mentioned 
in this thread, there are another ways


dpkg -S /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf
systemd-timesyncd: /etc/systemd/timesyncd.conf

dpkg -L systemd-timesyncd | grep /man/
/usr/share/man/man5
/usr/share/man/man5/timesyncd.conf.5.gz
/usr/share/man/man8
/usr/share/man/man8/systemd-timesyncd.service.8.gz
/usr/share/man/man5/timesyncd.conf.d.5.gz
/usr/share/man/man8/systemd-timesyncd.8.gz

These tools do not rely on remote content and should work even if a 
twisted pair cable has a degraded hot magenta wire. Certainly arbitrary 
failures may be expected if Chrome has stolen port 80 and Firefox is 
under an attack of an antivirus.

VAX emulation/simulation (was Re: systemd-timesyncd)

[The Wanderer]

On 2024-01-07 at 19:20, Nicholas Geovanis wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 7, 2024, 4:51 PM Charles Curley 
> wrote:
> 
>> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 20:36:12 +
>>
>> "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

>>> Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?
>>
>> Oh, come on! Just because Gene doesn't like certain ancient Digital
>> Equipment products…?
>>
> 
> Come on There has to be a linux-based VAX simulator somewhere out there
> for Gene :-D
> So he can practice getting VAXed... :-D
> said the man who used to use LSI-11's :-D

$ apt-cache show simh
Package: simh
[...]
Description-en: Emulators for 33 different computers
 This is the SIMH set of emulators for 33 different computers:
[...]
 DEC VAX (but cannot include the microcode due to copyright)


No idea whether it'd be enough, but if anyone does actually want to
pursue the idea, it might be worth looking at.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Nicholas Geovanis]

On Sun, Jan 7, 2024, 4:51 PM Charles Curley 
wrote:

> On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 20:36:12 +
> "Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:
>
> > > Take care, stay warm, well, and unvaxed.
> > > ^^^
> >
> > Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?
>
> Oh, come on! Just because Gene doesn't like certain ancient Digital
> Equipment products…?
>

Come on There has to be a linux-based VAX simulator somewhere out there
for Gene :-D
So he can practice getting VAXed... :-D
said the man who used to use LSI-11's :-D

-- 
> Does anybody read signatures any more?
>
> https://charlescurley.com
> https://charlescurley.com/blog/
>
>

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Charles Curley]

On Sun, 7 Jan 2024 20:36:12 +
"Andrew M.A. Cater"  wrote:

> > Take care, stay warm, well, and unvaxed.
> > ^^^  
> 
> Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?

Oh, come on! Just because Gene doesn't like certain ancient Digital
Equipment products…?

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Arno Lehmann]

Hi Gene,

Am 07.01.2024 um 20:51 schrieb gene heskett:

On 1/7/24 10:48, Max Nikulin wrote:

...
systemd-timesyncd is a NTP-client, not a server. It is shipped with 
man pages and works out of the box (of course, if network is properly 
configured).


Is it supposed to be installed by the net-installer? There does not seem 
to be any man pages other than the bog std stuff. When I found the 
/etc/systemd/timesyncd I immediately asked the system for man timesyncd, 
got this:

gene@coyote:/etc$ man timesyncd
No manual entry for timesyncd


I can not even guess what you did with your installation... here, boring 
bookworm installation, not caring much about which ntp software I use:


$ apropos timesyncd
systemd-timesyncd (8) - Synchronisierung der Netzwerkzeit
systemd-timesyncd.service (8) - Synchronisierung der Netzwerkzeit
timesyncd.conf (5)   - Konfigurationsdateien für die 
Netzwerkzeitsynchronisierung
timesyncd.conf.d (5) - Konfigurationsdateien für die 
Netzwerkzeitsynchronisierung


Of course all in German here with my desktop.

I'll not comment time zone settings or vaccinations, but I find many 
things that seem execeptionally difficult for you to just work for me.


Cheers,

Arno

--
Arno Lehmann

IT-Service Lehmann
Sandstr. 6, 49080 Osnabrück

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Jan 07, 2024 at 02:51:26PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 1/7/24 10:48, Max Nikulin wrote:
> > On 07/01/2024 02:17, gene heskett wrote:
> > 
> Is it supposed to be installed by the net-installer? There does not seem to
> be any man pages other than the bog std stuff. When I found the
> /etc/systemd/timesyncd I immediately asked the system for man timesyncd, got
> this:
> gene@coyote:/etc$ man timesyncd
> No manual entry for timesyncd
> 
> 
> What package contains the manpages for a bookworm amd64 install I expect to
> do anything I might want to do?
> 

apt install manpages (as noted in a message above earlier in the thread).

> Take care, stay warm, well, and unvaxed.
> ^^^

Gene - no partisan opinions, please, as per Code of Conduct?

All best, as ever,

Andy

> Cheers, Gene Heskett.
> -- 
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
> If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
>  - Louis D. Brandeis
> 

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[gene heskett]

On 1/7/24 11:24, John Hasler wrote:

Gene writes:

Lately, everytime I go anywhere near google or a gmail link I get
attacked by a virus that calls itself norton antivirus.


Delete all your Firefox caches and upgrade Firefox.  That
phishing malware has nothing to do with Google or Norton.  You acquired
it by visiting an infected or malicious Web site.

Quit using Google search.  Use DuckDuckGo.


checkrootkit and rkhunter aren't finding anything.  FF caches, can they 
be cleaned w/o loosing bookmarks?  And I do use ddg when I can.


Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[gene heskett]

On 1/7/24 10:48, Max Nikulin wrote:

On 07/01/2024 02:17, gene heskett wrote:
If debian is going to supply systemd's timesyncd as a client, I 
expected a bookworm install to just work. It did not and without docs 
I have to pester the list, which has gotten me a bad rep because the 
lack of docs for this stuff has me in a screw google frame of mind by 
the time I get around to asking the list.  Lately, everytime I go 
anywhere near google or a gmail link I get attacked by a virus that 
calls itself norton antivirus. That is an oxymoron, like military 
intelligence.


I have no idea what malware you have on your machines.

systemd-timesyncd is a NTP-client, not a server. It is shipped with man 
pages and works out of the box (of course, if network is properly 
configured).


Is it supposed to be installed by the net-installer? There does not seem 
to be any man pages other than the bog std stuff. When I found the 
/etc/systemd/timesyncd I immediately asked the system for man timesyncd, 
got this:

gene@coyote:/etc$ man timesyncd
No manual entry for timesyncd

So one of the first things I did, after getting an orca-less install ( 
that took about 26 installs before someone said I had to unplug ALL my 
usb stuff which other than keyboard/mouse buttons I did leave plugged in 
because the only other stuff I had here was ps2 based, finally getting 
an orca-less install, all the other installs were because bookworm with 
orca removed by removing the exec bits of the executables because apt 
wouldn't purge it, will not reboot without them forcing a reinstall any 
time I had to reboot) and getting t-bird setup so I could do email was 
to install ntpsec, which can be a server. and worked as a client OOTB. 
Even if timesyncd might have worked, its not a server as you note.

But if there are man pages on timesyncd, that is not what they are named.

Now I decide to use this ntpsec install as a server to the rest of my 
systems here, thereby unloading the debian pool a bit, and the lack of 
docs bytes me again. I'm playing the 10,000 monkeys re-writing 
Shakespear scene here and catching it for not using google, and got the 
help I needed from John's post to look at manpages.org.  And that seems 
to have started another endless thread I'll get blamed for. My lack of 
man pages has been asked, and ignored before, so I'll ask again:


What package contains the manpages for a bookworm amd64 install I expect 
to do anything I might want to do?


Take care, stay warm, well, and unvaxed.

Cheers, Gene Heskett.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: systemd-timesyncd

[John Hasler]

Gene writes:
> Lately, everytime I go anywhere near google or a gmail link I get
> attacked by a virus that calls itself norton antivirus.

Delete all your Firefox caches and upgrade Firefox.  That
phishing malware has nothing to do with Google or Norton.  You acquired
it by visiting an infected or malicious Web site.

Quit using Google search.  Use DuckDuckGo.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

systemd-timesyncd

[Max Nikulin]

On 07/01/2024 02:17, gene heskett wrote:
If debian is going to supply systemd's timesyncd as a client, I expected 
a bookworm install to just work. It did not and without docs I have to 
pester the list, which has gotten me a bad rep because the lack of docs 
for this stuff has me in a screw google frame of mind by the time I get 
around to asking the list.  Lately, everytime I go anywhere near google 
or a gmail link I get attacked by a virus that calls itself norton 
antivirus. That is an oxymoron, like military intelligence.


I have no idea what malware you have on your machines.

systemd-timesyncd is a NTP-client, not a server. It is shipped with man 
pages and works out of the box (of course, if network is properly 
configured).

Re: systemd-timesyncd et ntpdate

[Eric Degenetais]

bonjour,
bug? Non. Si c'est un démon, on peut discuter sur le fait qu'il soit
installé par défaut, mais ça me paraît logique en installant un démon
de l'activer par la même occasion (dans le sens où je considère que ça
satisfait au cas d'utilisation majoritaire: j'installe un démon pour
m'en servir).
Ce que je considérerais comme une anomalie, c'est si tu ne pouvais pas
le désactiver pour t'adapter à ton cas d'utilisation.

cordialement


__
Éric Dégenètais
Henix

http://www.henix.com
http://www.squashtest.org


Le 25 novembre 2016 à 10:36, Alain Rpnpif <rpn...@free.fr> a écrit :
>
> Bonjour,
>
> J'utilise comme beaucoup ntpdate pour synchroniser l'horloge de Debian
> Jessie. L'intérêt est que, quand il a terminé sa tâche, il s'arrête
> contrairement à ntpd que je n'ai pas installé. C'est mieux pour un
> portable.
>
> Le problème c'est que ntpdate est obsolète et pourrait disparaître dans
> des distributions.
>
> Je suis passé comme la plupart d'entre nous sous systemd.
> Celui-ci lance systemd-timesyncd. Mais ce dernier, contrairement à
> ntpdate, reste en tâche de fond et est donc un remplacement à ntpd, et
> ce malgré la présence simultanée de ntpdate.
>
> Trouvez-vous normal que, sans qu'on lui demande, systemd-timesyncd
> assure le rôle de ntpd alors que ntpd n'était volontairement pas
> installé ?
>
> C'est d'autant plus gênant dans un environnement où on ne souhaite qu'un
> minimum de connexion réseau ou bien on souhaite limiter l'occupation
> mémoire.
>
> Bien sûr je pourrais désactiver systemd-timesyncd (pas encore essayé)
> mais il ne devrait pas se lancer implicitement sauf lors de la
> première synchronisation éventuellement.
>
> Qu'en pensez-vous ? Peut-on considérer ça comme un bogue ?
> Quel est le comportement sous Stretch ?
>
> --
> Alain Rpnpif
>

systemd-timesyncd et ntpdate

[Alain Rpnpif]

Bonjour,

J'utilise comme beaucoup ntpdate pour synchroniser l'horloge de Debian
Jessie. L'intérêt est que, quand il a terminé sa tâche, il s'arrête
contrairement à ntpd que je n'ai pas installé. C'est mieux pour un
portable.

Le problème c'est que ntpdate est obsolète et pourrait disparaître dans
des distributions.

Je suis passé comme la plupart d'entre nous sous systemd.
Celui-ci lance systemd-timesyncd. Mais ce dernier, contrairement à
ntpdate, reste en tâche de fond et est donc un remplacement à ntpd, et
ce malgré la présence simultanée de ntpdate.

Trouvez-vous normal que, sans qu'on lui demande, systemd-timesyncd
assure le rôle de ntpd alors que ntpd n'était volontairement pas
installé ?

C'est d'autant plus gênant dans un environnement où on ne souhaite qu'un
minimum de connexion réseau ou bien on souhaite limiter l'occupation
mémoire.

Bien sûr je pourrais désactiver systemd-timesyncd (pas encore essayé)
mais il ne devrait pas se lancer implicitement sauf lors de la
première synchronisation éventuellement.

Qu'en pensez-vous ? Peut-on considérer ça comme un bogue ?
Quel est le comportement sous Stretch ?

-- 
Alain Rpnpif