Re: x and virtual consoles

[Marc Shapiro]

On 8/6/19 12:29 AM, Curt wrote:

On 2019-08-06, Ed  wrote:

On 2019-08-06 09:02+0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:

On Lu, 05 aug 19, 21:56:55, Ed wrote:

How do you run two login managers though so that you can have two users
share the same computer without having to log out? In other words,
whilst I go and make dinner I want to allow someone else to sit here,
without having to shut applications down?

Some login managers have the "switch user" feature.

Does that feature take the user back to the login screen without leaving
the applications running?



https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/LightDM

  LightDM's dm-tool command can be used to allow multiple users to be logged in
  on separate ttys. The following will send a signal requesting that the current
  session be locked and then will initiate a switch to LightDM's greeter,
  allowing a new user to log in to the system.

$ dm-tool switch-to-greeter

Looks promising.

I am another one of those who like to boot to a terminal and then run 
startx (which then runs mate), so this may not apply if you want to boot 
to a DE's login manager, but just to get it out there for those who are 
interested:


My wife, daughter and I each have separate logins on a single box.  On 
the rare occasions that the system gets rebooted, I log on to vt1 and 
run startx (using alias startx='clear; startx -- :0'), my wife logs on 
to vt2 and runs startx (using alias startx='clear; startx -- :1'), and 
my daughter uses vt3 and alias startx='clear; startx -- :2'.  After that 
ctl-alt-f1 gets to my session, ctl-alt-f2 gets to my wife's session and 
ctl-alt-f3 gets to my daughter's session.  All sessions running all the 
time.  The only disadvantage to this is that occasionally a web page 
that my daughter has up will decide that it's time to play music.  Then 
I have to find the offending page and mute it.  Other than that, this 
system has worked for us for years.


Marc

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed Neville]

On 2019-08-06 10:31-0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> I did, created a user test, logged in, but when I came back to the 
> machine 10 minutes later, the screen was locked and showing gene as 
> the default login.

dm-tool did work to switch the user. That solves a problem for now. 
Please don't see this as being too picky, but it would be nice for tty 
invoked startx to work like it used to, say if lightdm drops dm-tool at 
some point in the future. ctrl-alt-function keys seems to work in other 
distros, just not debian any longer, something seems different here.

> Getting old isn't for wimps as I'm finding out while looking for some 
> reason to celebrate my 85th in a couple months.  I guess that makes me 
> officially an old fart?

Many, many people failed to make it that far. I wonder what the kernel 
will be like when I get to 85, maybe it will insult me telepathically!

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 06 August 2019 09:22:15 Curt wrote:

> On 2019-08-06, deloptes  wrote:
> > Curt wrote:
> >> LightDM's dm-tool command can be used to allow multiple users to be
> >> logged in on separate ttys. The following will send a signal
> >> requesting that the current session be locked and then will
> >> initiate a switch to LightDM's greeter, allowing a new user to log
> >> in to the system.
> >
> > it says multiple users - not the same user
>
> curty@einstein:~/glimmer$ man dm-tool
> 
> switch-to-greeter
>Switch to the greeter suitable for logging into a new
>session.
>
> Says "logging into a new *session*." (emphasis mine).
>
> Let's ask Gene to try it and report back.

I did, created a user test, logged in, but when I came back to the 
machine 10 minutes later, the screen was locked and showing gene as the 
default login.

I've shut it down as I needed to switch cards and boot a stretch that 
works with linuxcnc. But I'm also installing a new upper countershaft 
and bearings for one end of it as a metal spray failed and wrecked the 
bearings. So I bought a new shaft but it had no woodruff key seats cut.
Thats been fun, the shaft is hardened to 60C and carbide tooling is 
dulled instantly.  So I used that tool up trying to EDM the keyway, but 
ran out of broken 1/8" carbide to serve as the electrode. Finally wound 
up with it rigged in my 4 axis gantry, mill and using 3/4" cutoff 
wheels, stacked 4 thick on a dremel arbor being spun by a 1.5 horse 
water cooled motor, at 24k rpms, was able to get it done.

And I'll run the stretch install until a pi4 gets here, if I even get it 
back together before the pi4 arrives. Since new bearings won't be here 
till Thursday late, I'll be Friday pulling those in, then Saturday will 
be wasted putting the spindle back together with new powertwist belting 
hanging down into the drive, then Sunday back to sitting on a very low 
creeper/stool trying to put this shaft back in with belts that may be a 
link short. That involves putting a taperlock hub into the pulley that 
drives those belts, making an even shorter arm allan wrench to tighten 
the taperlock I made because the pulley bore was washed out, and 
tightening that is a multistep process that takes several hours due to 
lack of space to properly run that allen wrench. I can only tighten one 
screw 1/6th turn at time, then rotate to bring the next of 3 screws 
reachable.  But it will be tight enough when done that the lack of a key 
is a never mind. It will not slip.

I haven't over the years, cared for my back all that well, been pushed 
too hard too many times, so 2 crushed disks pinning my sciatic nerves 
isn't fun. Its painfull, and sometimes my legs do not do what my brain 
tells them to, so I may have to kill some time resting to recouperate.

Getting old isn't for wimps as I'm finding out while looking for some 
reason to celebrate my 85th in a couple months.  I guess that makes me 
officially an old fart?

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis
Genes Web page 

Re: x and virtual consoles

[David Wright]

On Tue 06 Aug 2019 at 07:11:04 (+0100), Ed wrote:
> On 2019-08-05 16:59-0500, David Wright wrote:
> > Perhaps this is all to do with your DM. I use startx, and since
> > stretch the Xserver runs "on top of" the VC that started it, and
> > as the user, not root. In the past, Xservers ran as root on VC7,
> > VC8, …
> 
> Does lightdm or gdm act as your greeter? I have not reproduced this 
> between xsessions started by tty login, only ever the session started by 
> lightdm crashes.

No, I'm afraid I'm a member of Curt's “ineluctable "just use Mutt"”
association, using startx (though I don't see what Mutt has to do with
the price of fish).

One footnote to my comment, though. After posting it, I looked back
at the line in Xsession and noted that nowadays there's a variable
that might be more useful than the date, so I changed it.

ERRFILE=$HOME/.xsession-errors-$XDG_VTNR
will number them by the VC that the Xserver started on. This could
be fragile if you were to be able to start more than one from the same
VC. OTOH it's predictable as it's available before the Xserver starts,
unlike another alternative which is
ERRFILE=$HOME/.xsession-errors-${DISPLAY#:}

Both these have the advantage over date that they are self-cleaning,
getting overwritten in the normal course of events.

> Tried to force a x session on vt8, but that responds with 'Permission 
> denied' when doing that. I think system d sets up the permissions of 
> tty1 when you use that console:
> 
>   crw--- 1 ed   tty 4,  1 2019-08-06 06:57:48 /dev/tty1

I take what the system throws at me. AIUI the user-owner Xserver has
to run on the tty from which it was started, whereas the older
root-owned ones could open tty7, 8, etc. I don't use the latter
any more.

My guess is that you can't run two user-owned Xservers from the *same*
VC, which is why I trust using $XDG_VTNR above. I take it that this
variable is a new Desktop Group thingy, and its newness is why I
wasn't using it already.

Cheers,
David.

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Curt]

On 2019-08-06, Curt  wrote:
>>
>> it says multiple users - not the same user
>>
>>
>
> curty@einstein:~/glimmer$ man dm-tool
>
> switch-to-greeter
>Switch to the greeter suitable for logging into a new
>session.
>
> Says "logging into a new *session*." (emphasis mine).
>
> Let's ask Gene to try it and report back.
>

I guess what Ed would want here is one of the following (because it seems
switch-to-greeter indeed won't get it):

 add-nested-seat
Start an X server inside a session and connect it to a display manager.

 add-local-x-seat DISPLAY_NUMBER
Connect an existing X server to the display manager.

 add-seat TYPE [NAME=VALUE...]
Add a dynamic seat.

Apparently poorly documented (like what is TYPE?):

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=849072


-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Curt]

On 2019-08-06, deloptes  wrote:
> Curt wrote:
>
>> LightDM's dm-tool command can be used to allow multiple users to be logged
>> in on separate ttys. The following will send a signal requesting that the
>> current session be locked and then will initiate a switch to LightDM's
>> greeter, allowing a new user to log in to the system.
>
> it says multiple users - not the same user
>
>

curty@einstein:~/glimmer$ man dm-tool

switch-to-greeter
   Switch to the greeter suitable for logging into a new
   session.

Says "logging into a new *session*." (emphasis mine).

Let's ask Gene to try it and report back.

-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: x and virtual consoles

[deloptes]

Curt wrote:

> LightDM's dm-tool command can be used to allow multiple users to be logged
> in on separate ttys. The following will send a signal requesting that the
> current session be locked and then will initiate a switch to LightDM's
> greeter, allowing a new user to log in to the system.

it says multiple users - not the same user

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Curt]

On 2019-08-06, Ed  wrote:
> On 2019-08-06 09:02+0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
>> On Lu, 05 aug 19, 21:56:55, Ed wrote:
>> > 
>> > How do you run two login managers though so that you can have two users 
>> > share the same computer without having to log out? In other words, 
>> > whilst I go and make dinner I want to allow someone else to sit here, 
>> > without having to shut applications down?
>> 
>> Some login managers have the "switch user" feature.
>
> Does that feature take the user back to the login screen without leaving 
> the applications running?
>


https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/LightDM

 LightDM's dm-tool command can be used to allow multiple users to be logged in
 on separate ttys. The following will send a signal requesting that the current
 session be locked and then will initiate a switch to LightDM's greeter,
 allowing a new user to log in to the system.

$ dm-tool switch-to-greeter

Looks promising.

-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed]

On 2019-08-06 09:02+0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote:
> On Lu, 05 aug 19, 21:56:55, Ed wrote:
> > 
> > How do you run two login managers though so that you can have two users 
> > share the same computer without having to log out? In other words, 
> > whilst I go and make dinner I want to allow someone else to sit here, 
> > without having to shut applications down?
> 
> Some login managers have the "switch user" feature.

Does that feature take the user back to the login screen without leaving 
the applications running?

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed]

On 2019-08-05 16:59-0500, David Wright wrote:
> Perhaps this is all to do with your DM. I use startx, and since
> stretch the Xserver runs "on top of" the VC that started it, and
> as the user, not root. In the past, Xservers ran as root on VC7,
> VC8, …

Does lightdm or gdm act as your greeter? I have not reproduced this 
between xsessions started by tty login, only ever the session started by 
lightdm crashes.

Tried to force a x session on vt8, but that responds with 'Permission 
denied' when doing that. I think system d sets up the permissions of 
tty1 when you use that console:

  crw--- 1 ed   tty 4,  1 2019-08-06 06:57:48 /dev/tty1

[   757.147] (--) synaptics: ETPS/2 Elantech Touchpad: touchpad found
[   778.512] (II) AIGLX: Suspending AIGLX clients for VT switch
[   786.321] (II) AIGLX: Resuming AIGLX clients after VT switch
[   786.321] (EE) modeset(0): drmSetMaster failed: Invalid argument
[   786.321] (EE) modeset(0): failed to set mode: Permission denied
[   786.321] (EE)
Fatal server error:
[   786.321] (EE) EnterVT failed for screen 0
[   786.321] (EE)
[   786.321] (EE)
Please consult the The X.Org Foundation support
 at http://wiki.x.org
 for help.
[   786.321] (EE) Please also check the log file at "/var/log/Xorg.0.log" for 
additional information.
[   786.321] (EE)
[   786.321] (II) AIGLX: Suspending AIGLX clients for VT switch
[   786.376] (EE) Server terminated with error (1). Closing log file.

To eliminate my actions from this, I tried again without telling startx 
which vt to use, and the error above happened on the *second* switch 
back to vt7.

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Andrei POPESCU]

On Lu, 05 aug 19, 21:56:55, Ed wrote:
> 
> How do you run two login managers though so that you can have two users 
> share the same computer without having to log out? In other words, 
> whilst I go and make dinner I want to allow someone else to sit here, 
> without having to shut applications down?

Some login managers have the "switch user" feature.

Kind regards,
Andrei
-- 
http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser


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Re: x and virtual consoles

[David Wright]

On Mon 05 Aug 2019 at 21:56:55 (+0100), Ed wrote:
> On 2019-08-05 13:11+0200, deloptes wrote:
> > IMO you can not run multiple X sessions from the same user. I am not 
> > 100% sure, but I can imagine what would happen with the session 
> > manager.
> 
> I have done in the past, one 'ed' would run xfce and another would run 
> evilwm. However, the majority of use would be from 'ed' and a different 
> user account for working from home in.

Sure. This machine is running two X servers as me. As I don't want my
.xsession-errors files to be interleaved, I made one small change to
a system configuration file. In /etc/X11/Xsession I added the line
ERRFILE=$HOME/.xsession-errors-$(/bin/date +%Y%m%d%H%M%S)
but it does mean that I have to sweep them up. I had thought about
distinguishing them by the VC they started on, but haven't got
round to it. Everything else that requires distinguishing uses
$DISPLAY.

> > So if your first session is on vt7 (CTRL) ALT+F7 the next one will be 
> > on
> > (CTRL) ALT+F8.
> 
> This is what I think is expected now if you want tty1 and ctrl-alt-f1 to 
> match:
> 
>   /usr/bin/startx -display :1 -- :1 vt1

Perhaps this is all to do with your DM. I use startx, and since
stretch the Xserver runs "on top of" the VC that started it, and
as the user, not root. In the past, Xservers ran as root on VC7,
VC8, …

> > I have used this only with different users and from the login manager 
> > or
> > from the desktop by starting new user session.
> 
> How do you run two login managers though so that you can have two users 
> share the same computer without having to log out? In other words, 
> whilst I go and make dinner I want to allow someone else to sit here, 
> without having to shut applications down?
> 
> > Doing it from the same user makes no sense IMO. Why would you do this?

Different window managers and desktop configurations. But that's not
the point. It makes no sense to me *not* to be able to do it. It would
be like going back to non-reentrant code when ten instances of emacs
sessions would mean ten executables tying up memory.

> Well, in the weird times when I did, it was a different desktop 
> environment (evilwm for code, xfce for web browsing and mail). Avoids 
> bells and notifications from disturbing me. I'm not doing that these 
> days, now I just don't want to switch user spaces. If it auto-locked, 
> that'd be nice, too, I seem to remember that switching would auto-lock.

Cheers,
David.

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed]

On 2019-08-05 13:11+0200, deloptes wrote:
> IMO you can not run multiple X sessions from the same user. I am not 
> 100% sure, but I can imagine what would happen with the session 
> manager.

I have done in the past, one 'ed' would run xfce and another would run 
evilwm. However, the majority of use would be from 'ed' and a different 
user account for working from home in.

> So if your first session is on vt7 (CTRL) ALT+F7 the next one will be 
> on
> (CTRL) ALT+F8.

This is what I think is expected now if you want tty1 and ctrl-alt-f1 to 
match:

  /usr/bin/startx -display :1 -- :1 vt1

> I have used this only with different users and from the login manager 
> or
> from the desktop by starting new user session.

How do you run two login managers though so that you can have two users 
share the same computer without having to log out? In other words, 
whilst I go and make dinner I want to allow someone else to sit here, 
without having to shut applications down?

> Doing it from the same user makes no sense IMO. Why would you do this?

Well, in the weird times when I did, it was a different desktop 
environment (evilwm for code, xfce for web browsing and mail). Avoids 
bells and notifications from disturbing me. I'm not doing that these 
days, now I just don't want to switch user spaces. If it auto-locked, 
that'd be nice, too, I seem to remember that switching would auto-lock.

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed]

On 2019-08-05 09:57-, Curt wrote:
> On 2019-08-04, Ed  wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > For years I would happily ctrl-alt-f<1-6> for an additional x.org 
> > session by running 'startx' and another window manager. Until now-ish.
> >
> > What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console can 
> > cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins only.
> 
> Is this related to this (I can't really understand what you're saying
> here, actually, though everybody else seems to, but what the hell):
> 
> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/46655

This is seems to be a bug for gnome-terminal, not the x session. But the 
log looks a little familiar.

> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/10/msg00603.html

This is similar, but not quite as raw as what I experience. I don't have 
to exit one of the x sessions, only start x from tty1 and the greeter 
spawned x will crash.

However, starting an x session on tty1 and then log in on tty2 as 
another user, I can happily switch between tty1 and tty2.

I'll get a log from x tomorrow. I keep wondering if it is down to the 
'-novtswitch' option added to xorg by lightdm. However, these steps at 
the top of the thread will reproduce in a qemu vm, and that uses gdm, 
maybe systemd does something weird with vt7?

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Curt]

On 2019-08-05, Felix Miata  wrote:
> Curt composed on 2019-08-05 11:29 (UTC):
>
>> Maybe this is the bug we're looking for:
>
>> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=834270
>
>> Fix (Simon says):
>
>>  * removing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console from ~/.bash_logout 
>>  (console is cleared anyway nowadays)
>>  * replacing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console with /usr/bin/reset in 
>>  ~/.bash_logout
>
> That's the bug and workaround I couldn't remember for my  previous reply. I 
> rarely
> login on vtty1 as a habit going back many moons.

Wading through extraneous material until arrival at the relevant log
files, which may reveal some clue, except those are curiously kept under
wraps.


-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed]

On 2019-08-05 11:11-0400, Felix Miata wrote:
> 
> > Fix (Simon says):
> 
> >  * removing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console from ~/.bash_logout 
> >  (console is cleared anyway nowadays)
> >  * replacing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console with /usr/bin/reset in 
> >  ~/.bash_logout

Why would bash_logout be involved thought? Switching vt should not force 
a logout. I can understand it forcing a lock screen, but not a logout, 
surely?

> That's the bug and workaround I couldn't remember for my  previous reply. I 
> rarely
> login on vtty1 as a habit going back many moons.

That didn't solve it for me, unfortunately. I will try again this week 
with a selection of different Debian versions.

To explain a little more about why I used this heavily, my local user 
'ed' would have a normal xfce desktop, whilst my working from home user 
would match the username at $corp for convenience. The rest of the 
family have their own user accounts and we could work in harmony.

What I've found though, is that this issue doesn't occur with 
Elementary. I've not tested with plain Ubuntu. In a way, if the problem 
exists in Ubuntu or one of the other variants then I may have a delta to 
investigate.

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Felix Miata]

Curt composed on 2019-08-05 11:29 (UTC):

> Maybe this is the bug we're looking for:

> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=834270

> Fix (Simon says):

>  * removing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console from ~/.bash_logout 
>  (console is cleared anyway nowadays)
>  * replacing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console with /usr/bin/reset in 
>  ~/.bash_logout

That's the bug and workaround I couldn't remember for my  previous reply. I 
rarely
login on vtty1 as a habit going back many moons.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Curt]

On 2019-08-04, Ed  wrote:
>
>   1. log in via lightdm/gdm
>   2. switch to a text console
>   3. run startx and use the window manager for a moment or two
>   4. switch back to first session

Maybe this is the bug we're looking for:

https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=834270

Fix (Simon says):

 * removing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console from ~/.bash_logout 
 (console is cleared anyway nowadays)
 * replacing the call to /usr/bin/clear_console with /usr/bin/reset in 
 ~/.bash_logout

-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: x and virtual consoles

[deloptes]

Ed wrote:

> For years I would happily ctrl-alt-f<1-6> for an additional x.org
> session by running 'startx' and another window manager. Until now-ish.
> 
> The way to reproduce the problem is as follows:
> 
> 1. log in via lightdm/gdm
> 2. switch to a text console
> 3. run startx and use the window manager for a moment or two
> 4. switch back to first session
> 
> At this point you should be presented with the default login screen
> after the x session crashed.
> 
> What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console can
> cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins only.
> 
> Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run several
> user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during Jessie or
> Stretch.
> 
> Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing multi
> GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped past me
> without noticing?

IMO you can not run multiple X sessions from the same user. I am not 100%
sure, but I can imagine what would happen with the session manager.

AFAIR if you start a new X session it will take the next virtual available.

So if your first session is on vt7 (CTRL) ALT+F7 the next one will be on
(CTRL) ALT+F8.

I have used this only with different users and from the login manager or
from the desktop by starting new user session.

Doing it from the same user makes no sense IMO. Why would you do this?

regards

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Curt]

On 2019-08-04, Ed  wrote:
> Hello,
>
> For years I would happily ctrl-alt-f<1-6> for an additional x.org 
> session by running 'startx' and another window manager. Until now-ish.
>
>
> What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console can 
> cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins only.

Is this related to this (I can't really understand what you're saying
here, actually, though everybody else seems to, but what the hell):

https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/46655
https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2017/10/msg00603.html

If not, disregard (there's not really any help in those links I must
admit, either).

> Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run several 
> user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during Jessie or 
> Stretch.
>
> Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing multi 
> GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped past me 
> without noticing?
>


-- 
“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
― Oscar Wilde, Lady Windermere's Fan

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed Neville]

On 2019-08-04 20:06-0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Works on 32 bit Buster on host m7ncd here, with one little glitch that 
> Ctrl-Alt-F3

I've not tried 32bit. I'll get the ISO and give that a whirl.

> memory currently lacks any connective dots between
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1663050
> and any possible appearance in Debian months ago.

That seems to be a different issue not vt switching from a lightdm/gdm 
spawned X to a tty spawned X crashing the login manager's X.

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Ed]

On 2019-08-04 22:54+0100, nektarios wrote:
> Indeed the problem seems reproducible for debian Stretch with sddm 
> display manager.
> The only logs appearing are from KDE applications (nothing in X11 logs):

Could this be systemd? My only thoughts are that systemd starts the x 
server on a vt, but ctrl-alt-f6 doesn't have permission to swtich back 
to the vt. The x process has a '-novtswitch' argument which looks 
suspicious to me. I tried to change that in the lightdm conf, but it 
seems to be appended as an argument to the program (maybe hardcoded).

> Unfortunately my PC even worse gets stuck after that so I cant really 
> tell if X11 is running.
> I hadn't used multiple x sessions for sometime (after I got used to 
> multiple desktops) but this seems an issue.

I think virtualisation replaced a lot of the requirement for most people 
to have two displays running. I find user separation sufficient for most 
working-from-home tasks without needing to store a virtual disk image.

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Felix Miata]

Ed composed on 2019-08-04 21:01 (UTC+0100):

> For years I would happily ctrl-alt-f<1-6> for an additional x.org 
> session by running 'startx' and another window manager. Until now-ish.

> The way to reproduce the problem is as follows:

>   1. log in via lightdm/gdm
>   2. switch to a text console
>   3. run startx and use the window manager for a moment or two
>   4. switch back to first session

> At this point you should be presented with the default login screen 
> after the x session crashed.

> What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console can 
> cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins only.

> Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run several 
> user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during Jessie or 
> Stretch.

> Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing multi 
> GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped past me 
> without noticing?

Works on 32 bit Buster on host m7ncd here, with one little glitch that 
Ctrl-Alt-F3
from vtty4 doesn't get me to the session running on vtty3, but Ctrl-Alt-F2 will
get me to vtty2, from which Ctrl-Alt-F3 does work as expected, as does 
Ctrl-Alt-F4
from the session on vtty3. Wierd.

However, your description I do have memory of from last winter. The problem is 
my
memory currently lacks any connective dots between
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1663050
and any possible appearance in Debian months ago.
-- 
Evolution as taught in public schools is religion, not science.

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: x and virtual consoles

[nektarios]

On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 18:36:44 -0400
Cindy Sue Causey  wrote:

> On 8/4/19, nektarios  wrote:
> > On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 21:01:57 +0100
> > Ed  wrote:  
> >>
> >> What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console
> >> can cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm
> >> logins only.
> >>
> >> Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run
> >> several user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during
> >> Jessie or Stretch.
> >>
> >> Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing
> >> multi GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped
> >> past me without noticing?  
> 
> 
> After sending mine off here, I re-read and thought,, *OH, man, I fully
> missed the point.*
> 
> But I *was* able to get a GUI of *some* sort. I'm on Bullseye with
> xfce4 and ALL that it draws in.
> 
> I've never tried to get anything to interact. It's always about get
> in, un-bork something, and get back out.
> 
> Messaging between the sessions ala the way we were able to with AS/400
> systems mid-1990's comes to mind as a way to test that interaction
> ability. I've come across references to packages that MIGHT do that,
> but I've never had an excuse to download and test drive it/them.
> 
> 
> > Indeed the problem seems reproducible for debian Stretch with sddm
> > display manager.  
> 
> 
> I'll have to give it another shot with those specifics you all are
> saying, but today's definitely not that day *cognitively*. :)
> 
> I've seen where some of you all write about having even more
> minimalist systems than my bare bones debootstraps. I've tried going
> that route and just haven't found something that fits what I need.
> Might just be about adaptation and the lack of being able to do so
> under extreme duress/stress.
> 
> 
> > The only logs appearing are from KDE applications (nothing in X11
> > logs): ```
> > Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kpasswdserver[958]: The X11
> > connection broke (error 1). Did the X11 server die?
> > Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kuiserver[958]: kuiserver: Fatal
> > IO error: client killed
> > Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.a11y.atspi.Registry[1251]: XIO:  fatal
> > IO error 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server ":0"
> > Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kglobalaccel[958]: The X11
> > connection broke (error 1). Did the X11 server die?
> > Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.a11y.atspi.Registry[1251]:   after
> > 947 requests (947 known processed) with 0 events remaining.
> > Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.KScreen[958]: The X11 connection
> > broke (error 1). Did the X11 server die?
> > ```
> >
> > Unfortunately my PC even worse gets stuck after that so I cant
> > really tell if X11 is running.
> > I hadn't used multiple x sessions for sometime (after I got used to
> > multiple desktops) but this seems an issue.  
> 
> 
> Mine referenced going to ~/.local/share/xorg/* for feedback. That's
> where I did find what appeared to be tinely appropriate for my shot at
> this.
> 
> Started to joke that I'm grateful mine at least didn't do that (get
> stuck), BUT... it DID take it n extra long while to calm down when I
> got back over to F7. That was after I successfully logged in as root
> AND "elf" (instead of "candycane") in full xfce4 graphical interface.
> 
> I'm on extremely limited hardware resources right now. 1GB RAM memory
> so I *a-sumed* that was probably what the momentary hangup was there
> when coming back up after those two success stories occurred.
> 
> I'll have to try doing more of what it sounds like you all are doing.
> I downloaded several different "window managers" (versus "desktop
> environments") just two or three weeks ago but then came back over to
> ol' familiar and friendly Xfce4. Thank you to its Developers!
> 
> I need to order a new hard drive (TODAY, yikes). With this thread in
> mind, I'll create a couple extra partitions dedicated to the "window
> managers" part of this thread when it's time.
> 
> Cindy :)



The xorg log file doesn't seem to have any kind of error in it.
At [1501.620] I start the new session but shows nothing. You can find it
attached.

Nektarios.

Xorg.1.log.old
Description: application/trash

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Cindy Sue Causey]

On 8/4/19, nektarios  wrote:
> On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 21:01:57 +0100
> Ed  wrote:
>>
>> What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console
>> can cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins
>> only.
>>
>> Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run
>> several user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during
>> Jessie or Stretch.
>>
>> Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing multi
>> GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped past me
>> without noticing?


After sending mine off here, I re-read and thought,, *OH, man, I fully
missed the point.*

But I *was* able to get a GUI of *some* sort. I'm on Bullseye with
xfce4 and ALL that it draws in.

I've never tried to get anything to interact. It's always about get
in, un-bork something, and get back out.

Messaging between the sessions ala the way we were able to with AS/400
systems mid-1990's comes to mind as a way to test that interaction
ability. I've come across references to packages that MIGHT do that,
but I've never had an excuse to download and test drive it/them.


> Indeed the problem seems reproducible for debian Stretch with sddm display
> manager.


I'll have to give it another shot with those specifics you all are
saying, but today's definitely not that day *cognitively*. :)

I've seen where some of you all write about having even more
minimalist systems than my bare bones debootstraps. I've tried going
that route and just haven't found something that fits what I need.
Might just be about adaptation and the lack of being able to do so
under extreme duress/stress.


> The only logs appearing are from KDE applications (nothing in X11 logs):
> ```
> Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kpasswdserver[958]: The X11 connection
> broke (error 1). Did the X11 server die?
> Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kuiserver[958]: kuiserver: Fatal IO error:
> client killed
> Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.a11y.atspi.Registry[1251]: XIO:  fatal IO error
> 11 (Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server ":0"
> Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kglobalaccel[958]: The X11 connection broke
> (error 1). Did the X11 server die?
> Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.a11y.atspi.Registry[1251]:   after 947
> requests (947 known processed) with 0 events remaining.
> Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.KScreen[958]: The X11 connection broke
> (error 1). Did the X11 server die?
> ```
>
> Unfortunately my PC even worse gets stuck after that so I cant really tell
> if X11 is running.
> I hadn't used multiple x sessions for sometime (after I got used to multiple
> desktops) but this seems an issue.


Mine referenced going to ~/.local/share/xorg/* for feedback. That's
where I did find what appeared to be tinely appropriate for my shot at
this.

Started to joke that I'm grateful mine at least didn't do that (get
stuck), BUT... it DID take it n extra long while to calm down when I
got back over to F7. That was after I successfully logged in as root
AND "elf" (instead of "candycane") in full xfce4 graphical interface.

I'm on extremely limited hardware resources right now. 1GB RAM memory
so I *a-sumed* that was probably what the momentary hangup was there
when coming back up after those two success stories occurred.

I'll have to try doing more of what it sounds like you all are doing.
I downloaded several different "window managers" (versus "desktop
environments") just two or three weeks ago but then came back over to
ol' familiar and friendly Xfce4. Thank you to its Developers!

I need to order a new hard drive (TODAY, yikes). With this thread in
mind, I'll create a couple extra partitions dedicated to the "window
managers" part of this thread when it's time.

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with birdseed *

Re: x and virtual consoles

[Cindy Sue Causey]

On 8/4/19, Ed  wrote:
> For years I would happily ctrl-alt-f<1-6> for an additional x.org
> session by running 'startx' and another window manager. Until now-ish.
>
> The way to reproduce the problem is as follows:
>
>   1. log in via lightdm/gdm
>   2. switch to a text console
>   3. run startx and use the window manager for a moment or two
>   4. switch back to first session
>
> At this point you should be presented with the default login screen
> after the x session crashed.
>
> What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console can
> cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins only.
>
> Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run several
> user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during Jessie or
> Stretch.
>
> Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing multi
> GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped past me
> without noticing?


Hi, Ed.. Am not having the bestest of "cognitive" days (so the tech
aspect is just out of reach overhead), but I can comment a little. I
remember being able to have two full graphical sessions running, each
on a different [console]. I tried to do it a few months ago because of
some reason I actually needed it finally... and it didn't work.

It didn't work just now, either. It crashed again. The blurb that I
caught and that I could still remember while switching between
consoles was that it would send feedback to
~/.local/share/xorg/Xorg.1.log.

If that's true, it ends with:

"Server terminated successfully (0). Closing log file."

Successfully? Maybe it just means that it didn't hang permanently and
that it closed out without leaving any loose ends. The date stamp on
that file is appropriate for when I just tried it.

Then I got to thinking.. I next tried root and a different regular
user account, and both worked fine. Maybe I'm just remembering wrong
about past experiences.

It's possible I never tried to open two sessions of the *same* User
until very recently. If I did go that second console route for any
real purpose, it would have most likely been about accessing root for
a few seconds for whatever reason. That would explain why my memory is
that things always worked.

The first time I ever would have tried it at all would have been out
of curiosity as to whether or not two graphical interfaces were even
possible at the same time... since there ARE additional consoles just
hanging around doing nothin'. :)

Kind of make sense that it would, maybe should crash for the same
User. Seems like being signed in as the same person twice might,
likely would cause conflicts of some kind. Maybe there's a "lockfile"
situation of some type keeping the same User from signing in twice?

OR NOT. :)

Have fun!

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with birdseed *

Re: x and virtual consoles

[nektarios]

On Sun, 4 Aug 2019 21:01:57 +0100
Ed  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> For years I would happily ctrl-alt-f<1-6> for an additional x.org 
> session by running 'startx' and another window manager. Until now-ish.
> 
> The way to reproduce the problem is as follows:
> 
>   1. log in via lightdm/gdm
>   2. switch to a text console
>   3. run startx and use the window manager for a moment or two
>   4. switch back to first session
> 
> At this point you should be presented with the default login screen 
> after the x session crashed.
> 
> What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console
> can cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins
> only.
> 
> Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run
> several user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during
> Jessie or Stretch.
> 
> Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing multi 
> GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped past me 
> without noticing?
> 

Indeed the problem seems reproducible for debian Stretch with sddm display 
manager.
The only logs appearing are from KDE applications (nothing in X11 logs):
```
Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kpasswdserver[958]: The X11 connection broke 
(error 1). Did the X11 server die?
Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kuiserver[958]: kuiserver: Fatal IO error: 
client killed
Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.a11y.atspi.Registry[1251]: XIO:  fatal IO error 11 
(Resource temporarily unavailable) on X server ":0"
Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.kglobalaccel[958]: The X11 connection broke 
(error 1). Did the X11 server die?
Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.a11y.atspi.Registry[1251]:   after 947 
requests (947 known processed) with 0 events remaining.
Aug  4 22:40:41 buldozer org.kde.KScreen[958]: The X11 connection broke (error 
1). Did the X11 server die?
```

Unfortunately my PC even worse gets stuck after that so I cant really tell if 
X11 is running.
I hadn't used multiple x sessions for sometime (after I got used to multiple 
desktops) but this seems an issue. 

x and virtual consoles

[Ed]

Hello,

For years I would happily ctrl-alt-f<1-6> for an additional x.org 
session by running 'startx' and another window manager. Until now-ish.

The way to reproduce the problem is as follows:

  1. log in via lightdm/gdm
  2. switch to a text console
  3. run startx and use the window manager for a moment or two
  4. switch back to first session

At this point you should be presented with the default login screen 
after the x session crashed.

What I have observed is that x sessions started from a text console can 
cooperate with each other, it seems limited to lightdm/gdm logins only.

Something happened between jobs which meant I didn't need to run several 
user accounts at once. It may have been introduced during Jessie or 
Stretch.

Am I alone, or do other people have this issue also? Am I doing multi 
GUI wrong, is there a modern way to do this that has slipped past me 
without noticing?

-- 
Best regards,
Ed http://www.s5h.net/

Re: Install problems: X and virtual consoles

[Eric Richardson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Type 'linux single' at the LILO prompt (press Shift to get the
 prompt). You'll boot into single user mode. 

This is what I needed.

 To remove the X/Gnome display manager from your startup scripts, try
 '/etc/init.d/xdm' remove (or '/etc/init.d/gdm remove' if you're using
 Gnome). Now type 'telinit 2' to bring the system to
 runlevel 2. You should be presented with a virtual console, and
 Alt-F[1-6] should switch consoles.

I selected xdm on install but loaded the gnome packages on install. I
want to run Gnome so how do I get gdm and remove xdm?
apt-get install gdm?

 
 When you've sorted out your X problems, check 'man update-rc.d' to
 boot your computer into X directly.

Thanks so much for the help.

Re: Install problems: X and virtual consoles

[ocorrain]

 I selected xdm on install but loaded the gnome packages on install. I
 want to run Gnome so how do I get gdm and remove xdm?

 apt-get install gdm?

Precisely. It should remove xdm and substitude gdm seamlessly...

Cheers

Tiarnan

Re: Install problems: X and virtual consoles

[Eric Richardson]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  I selected xdm on install but loaded the gnome packages on install. I
  want to run Gnome so how do I get gdm and remove xdm?
 
  apt-get install gdm?
 
 Precisely. It should remove xdm and substitude gdm seamlessly...
Wow, I like this Debian stuff.
Thanks for the quick response.
Eric :-)

Install problems: X and virtual consoles

[Eric Richardson]

Hi,
I don't know if this is because of a laptop keyboard or what but since
my X setup doesn't work I can't do anything after boot.

I try the ctrl-alt-bs to kill the x server and that doesn't work. I also
try ctrl-alt-f2 etc to get a virtual console so I can kill X and that
doesn't work.

What is the correct way to boot up to the point where X start. Like boot
to single user mode or something. What file control the final runlevel?

Eric :-)

Re: Install problems: X and virtual consoles

[ocorrain]

On Tue, Mar 06, 2001 at 03:26:04PM -0700, Eric Richardson wrote:
 Hi,
 I don't know if this is because of a laptop keyboard or what but since
 my X setup doesn't work I can't do anything after boot.
 
 I try the ctrl-alt-bs to kill the x server and that doesn't work. I also
 try ctrl-alt-f2 etc to get a virtual console so I can kill X and that
 doesn't work.
 
 What is the correct way to boot up to the point where X start. Like boot
 to single user mode or something. What file control the final runlevel?
 
 Eric :-)

Type 'linux single' at the LILO prompt (press Shift to get the
prompt). You'll boot into single user mode. Enter your root password,
and check /etc/init.d for xdm/gdm.

To remove the X/Gnome display manager from your startup scripts, try 
'/etc/init.d/xdm' remove (or '/etc/init.d/gdm remove' if you're using
Gnome). Now type 'telinit 2' to bring the system to
runlevel 2. You should be presented with a virtual console, and
Alt-F[1-6] should switch consoles.

When you've sorted out your X problems, check 'man update-rc.d' to
boot your computer into X directly.

Good Luck!

Tiarnan