Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC [ PLEASE STOP ]
if this long thread has gone for soo long with the [OT] tag why don't you go to another place to talk about this *rather* OT stuff. Please? Now! fede On Tuesday 27 January 2004 20:30, Nano Nano wrote: On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 05:26:52AM +0800, Katipo wrote: The only westernized nation that spends less on health care/capita than the U.S. is Turkey. You are forgetting the private sector. It's the best in the world for those who can get it. True, it's not distributed uniformly, but our poor are the healthiest and fattest on the planet. [snip the rest] Bah. -- Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem ( http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor ) +--+ | gpg public key : http://giskard.homelinux.com/~f/tulkas.asc | +--+ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC [ PLEASE STOP ]
On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 04:37:39PM -0300, federico silva wrote: if this long thread has gone for soo long with the [OT] tag why don't you go to another place to talk about this *rather* OT stuff. okay http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2004/debian-user-200401/msg06917.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC [ PLEASE STOP ]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Fri, Jan 30, 2004 at 04:37:39PM -0300, federico silva wrote: if this long thread has gone for soo long with the [OT] tag why don't you go to another place to talk about this *rather* OT stuff. Please? Now! procmail is your friend. - -- .''`. Paul Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' : `. `'` proud Debian admin and user `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fix a system -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFAGxIOUzgNqloQMwcRAsUpAJ9mTC9nslOgvQrkciYU+WydQg/TcgCdE4Gj PhAboXxTNs42HwVFl+qWm/g= =QoqP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Nano Nano wrote: (2) The oil thing. Yeah, there's some of that. But do me a favor and separate out (1) from this in your rhetoric. Not my rhetoric but it is a common enough one that people need to address it. The best thing you can do about (2) is change cars, the the oil companies will become other kinds of companies. Arabs didn't used to be important 100 years ago. It will be that way again. Hard to change cards any more. :P My concept of local and nation are changing. I'm pretty sure we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one. So you believe that any time any nation has a problem with out we (meaning your nation) does something it is perfectly OK for them to invade? What are you, new? No, there was a point there if you had cared to engage your brain for more than a few seconds to scratch your nuts. The concepts seem to be quite clear. If Mike did not believe that then the concepts of local and nation is defined. IE, Our nation clearly has power of what's within its borders (local to it) and obviously if Mike didn't like other nations meddling in his nations crap then they would feel the same way which provides a basis for the concept of nation. From that it is easy to define policy when it comes to certain matters. A nation can influence external problems by governing what it controls without also going out messing in other nation's crap. To do the latter invites the same to be done to it. And if we don't want people messing with the US they why the hell do we put up with the US messing with other nations. It's called a double-standard, really pissy things. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 12:43:56AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: invites the same to be done to it. And if we don't want people messing with the US they why the hell do we put up with the US messing with other nations. It's called a double-standard, really pissy things. http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/07/isolationism.html Definition of Isolationism 1. involvement without commitment - advantages without obligations 2. no permanent, entanglinq alliances 3. keep U.S. sovereign, free, at peace 4. emphasis on legalism, not force * a law-bound world of Great Powers keeping order 5. continue the Open Door concept I watch the History channel and C-Span when I'm not scratching my balls. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 10:09:57PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Mike M wrote: I am not going to defend .gov's oil policy. My point is there has to be an oil policy. You can't disengage and think things will just turn out alright. Why does there have to be one that includes invasion? I don't know. They are in front of the line. My vote is all of the above. Even if, by and large, they are ignorant? Sure hope you didnt buy Nike a few years back. See how hard it is to disengage? Things are just too connected. So if you stopped buying Nike to protest crappy working conditions of their suppliers then you help promote their unemployment. Damned if you do and damned if you don't. You can't say I quit. So if the world hates the US, then we ask why, and we listen, and we think, and then we act. Disengagement is impossible so don't use it as a rebuttal to some poll indicated the popularity of US government. There's blood on all their hands. Some more than others. A lot of people each with a speck of blood on their hands or a few with it dripping from their's, regardless, the crime is done. But the question is, what is the appropriate response by the government? What is the appropriate response of the people in the US who _can_ control their government? Who's Bob? I'm Mike. Bob Barker. Oh. Him. Game show host. I didn't ask the price of anything. :-) My concept of local and nation are changing. I'm pretty sure we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one. So you believe that any time any nation has a problem with out we (meaning your nation) does something it is perfectly OK for them to invade? Quite to the contrary. Phones and Intenet make the entire US seem like one big city. I've talked to folks all over the world for business since the mid-90's. It's never perfectly OK to invade. It's the worst course of possible. It's against everything Sun-Tzu teaches. I would like to have US leaders review the master's work and be required to take a quiz on it. -- Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 01:04:43AM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 12:43:56AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: invites the same to be done to it. And if we don't want people messing with the US they why the hell do we put up with the US messing with other nations. It's called a double-standard, really pissy things. http://history.acusd.edu/gen/WW2Timeline/07/isolationism.html Definition of Isolationism 1. involvement without commitment - advantages without obligations Impossible. 2. no permanent, entanglinq alliances Impossible. 3. keep U.S. sovereign, free, at peace Not unique to isolationism. 4. emphasis on legalism, not force * a law-bound world of Great Powers keeping order How do you keep order and maintain your isolated position? 5. continue the Open Door concept Isolated with an Open Door confuses me. I watch the History channel and C-Span when I'm not scratching my balls. Stay with History and CS/CS2. -- Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 09:50:25AM +0100, Mike M wrote: On Thu, Jan 29, 2004 at 01:04:43AM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Definition of Isolationism 1. involvement without commitment - advantages without obligations Impossible. 2. no permanent, entanglinq alliances Impossible. 3. keep U.S. sovereign, free, at peace Not unique to isolationism. 4. emphasis on legalism, not force * a law-bound world of Great Powers keeping order How do you keep order and maintain your isolated position? 5. continue the Open Door concept Isolated with an Open Door confuses me. I watch the History channel and C-Span when I'm not scratching my balls. Stay with History and CS/CS2. Let's shoot this thread in the head, it's dead Jim. The posting about isolationism was in response to someone advocating isolationism (which is the opposite of you). It was intended to be ironic to show that this exact same debate went on before WW2. Your response is really lame. How about EOT? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Nano Nano wrote: Bah. Bah is right. The author (not you) asked what was wrong with going the socialist way. It doesn't work. It doesn't work in small systems. It doesn't work in large systems. It certainly doesn't work in huge systems like a nation requires. It hasn't worked in the past. It cannot work in the future. It is amazing to me that *anyone* who understands the slightest bit about Open Source would have anything to do with a socialist agenda. Why? The Cathedral and the Bazaar. Lovely essay. Anyone ever notice that the Cathedral is central planning while the Bazaar is distributed, localized addressing of issues? Amazes me that this entire movement and many of its underpinnings are against the core of socialism and yet we get the socialist minions coming in lock-step trying to tell us its wrong at the larget levels. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Katipo wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:42:14 -0600 Dave's List Addy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/26/04 6:00 PM, Paul M Foster wrote: 1. Don't call us when you need help fending off the next power-mad psycho bent on enslaving the entire planet. This personality is your current president, ably assisted by a cabal of like personalities. Such as a multitude of European leaders. Sorry, I really dislike the guy but there's no comparison. 2. Don't call us when you've finished erecting the full-on socialist state you're busy creating in Europe, and you don't like the results. I'm not European, but from my objective viewpoint, they seem to be heading in the right direction. How's that? Socialism doesn't work. Hasn't worked before. Won't work in the future. Doesn't work in small scales. Doesn't work in large scales. It falls apart and in the process ruins all that it touches. Why don't you just get your totally unnecessary military bases out of there. I'm sorry, I must have missed something. When did the nations in question request they be removed instead of request that they be there? In spite of your skewed perception of reality those bases can only exist at the sufferance of the nations that provide the land for them. Be that as it may I happen to agree with you there. But let's keep the facts straight, eh? You only went in to Yugoslavia because after the russian withdrawal from east Germany, there was no more justification to stay on in west Germany (although, I note you are still there), to maintain a military base on the european continent. While I think it was a mistake I find it interesting that you feel that Europe, in general, trending towards socialism is a good thing (based on the good it does for the pleb...er, citizens) yet poo-poo the US from stopping the slaughter of one people by another in *BOTH* directions. One presumes then that you'd rather they just up and kill themselves or is it more that you only want a government doing the right thing when it is your version of what is a proper government? 3. Don't come here to escape your crushing taxes. Imposed as a necessity to pay off the exhorbitant cost of American 'aid.' Uh, no. France and Germany are doing quite well on their own by increasing their population base even though there is not a need through subsidized breeding programs which guarnetee large sums of money per child. That has to be funded somehow; guess how. 4. Don't come here to avoid your crappy socialized health care system. The only westernized nation that spends less on health care/capita than the U.S. is Turkey. Aaaand we still have people from nations with socialized health care coming here to get treatment. What's that tell you? Hint, see the top of my message about socialised systems NOT WORKING. 5. Don't expect sympathy when 3000 of your citizens become victims of the next Islamist nut job with a plan, who claims he hates the U.S. but inexplicably attacks you instead. And where is this occuring, other than with your 'friends and allies.' Oh how quickly we forget Yugoslavia. I mean you only see it as heavy-handedness. Try reading the details sometime. 6. Don't come here to find opportunity or the promise of a better life. That includes you, Mexico. The opportunity and the promise of a better life are all things of the past in America. Yet people still flood here from other nations. Imagine that. Have you honestly been here to find out firsthand? I think, actually, that opportunity is quite apt. Look it up sometime to see the difference between it and what most of Europe is sliding towards. Opportunity it is not. It's true that the U.S. have taken in many from other cultures, it's also true that it is also the standout hotbed of racism in the world today. *laugh* You've got to be kidding me, right? The standout hotbed of racism? You mean what happened in Yugoslavia wasn't racism. Or what happens on a daily basis between Isreal and its neighbors? How about the handful of racial purges in central Africa. Dare we also mention the racial tensions in SE Asia? What do all of those have in common that isn't present in the US which is the standout hotbed of racism? How about open bloodshed of thousands of people? How about the regular occurance of rape, torture, mutlation and wholesale slaughter? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall a single instance of whole communities being murdered in recent US history. Your national baseball competition is termed the 'World Series.' And yet we bring in players from other nations. Tell me, outside of Japan, where else is there a widespread playing of Baseball? Actually, that's the wrong question to ask. When the phrase was coined outside of the US how many nations had baseball teams? Hm? When I visit your country, my visa is stamped with the word 'alien' as if I am not of the same species, perhaps not even from the same planet. It's obvious
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 03:55:21 -0800 Steve Lamb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Katipo wrote: On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:42:14 -0600 Dave's List Addy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/26/04 6:00 PM, Paul M Foster wrote: 1. Don't call us when you need help fending off the next power-mad psycho bent on enslaving the entire planet. This personality is your current president, ably assisted by a cabal of like personalities. Such as a multitude of European leaders. Sorry, I really dislike the guy but there's no comparison. 2. Don't call us when you've finished erecting the full-on socialist state you're busy creating in Europe, and you don't like the results. I'm not European, but from my objective viewpoint, they seem to be heading in the right direction. How's that? Socialism doesn't work. Hasn't worked before. Won't work in the future. Doesn't work in small scales. Doesn't work in large scales. It falls apart and in the process ruins all that it touches. Why don't you just get your totally unnecessary military bases out of there. I'm sorry, I must have missed something. When did the nations in question request they be removed instead of request that they be there? In spite of your skewed perception of reality those bases can only exist at the sufferance of the nations that provide the land for them. Be that as it may I happen to agree with you there. But let's keep the facts straight, eh? You only went in to Yugoslavia because after the russian withdrawal from east Germany, there was no more justification to stay on in west Germany (although, I note you are still there), to maintain a military base on the european continent. While I think it was a mistake I find it interesting that you feel that Europe, in general, trending towards socialism is a good thing (based on the good it does for the pleb...er, citizens) yet poo-poo the US from stopping the slaughter of one people by another in *BOTH* directions. One presumes then that you'd rather they just up and kill themselves or is it more that you only want a government doing the right thing when it is your version of what is a proper government? 3. Don't come here to escape your crushing taxes. Imposed as a necessity to pay off the exhorbitant cost of American 'aid.' Uh, no. France and Germany are doing quite well on their own by increasing their population base even though there is not a need through subsidized breeding programs which guarnetee large sums of money per child. That has to be funded somehow; guess how. 4. Don't come here to avoid your crappy socialized health care system. The only westernized nation that spends less on health care/capita than the U.S. is Turkey. Aaaand we still have people from nations with socialized health care coming here to get treatment. What's that tell you? Hint, see the top of my message about socialised systems NOT WORKING. 5. Don't expect sympathy when 3000 of your citizens become victims of the next Islamist nut job with a plan, who claims he hates the U.S. but inexplicably attacks you instead. And where is this occuring, other than with your 'friends and allies.' Oh how quickly we forget Yugoslavia. I mean you only see it as heavy-handedness. Try reading the details sometime. 6. Don't come here to find opportunity or the promise of a better life. That includes you, Mexico. The opportunity and the promise of a better life are all things of the past in America. Yet people still flood here from other nations. Imagine that. Have you honestly been here to find out firsthand? I think, actually, that opportunity is quite apt. Look it up sometime to see the difference between it and what most of Europe is sliding towards. Opportunity it is not. It's true that the U.S. have taken in many from other cultures, it's also true that it is also the standout hotbed of racism in the world today. *laugh* You've got to be kidding me, right? The standout hotbed of racism? You mean what happened in Yugoslavia wasn't racism. Or what happens on a daily basis between Isreal and its neighbors? How about the handful of racial purges in central Africa. Dare we also mention the racial tensions in SE Asia? What do all of those have in common that isn't present in the US which is the standout hotbed of racism? How about open bloodshed of thousands of people? How about the regular occurance of rape, torture, mutlation and wholesale slaughter? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall a single instance of whole communities being murdered in recent US history. Your national baseball competition is termed the 'World Series.' And yet we bring in players from other nations. Tell me, outside of Japan, where else is there a widespread playing of Baseball? Actually, that's the wrong question to ask. When the
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Katipo wrote: I'd debate the issue, but you have your preferred view that appears to be based on a mixture of misconception and a confused perception of Europe being socialist. Uhm, no. I ran with what you agreed Nano said. IE, that Europe was trending towards socialism. You said it was the right direction which means you agree it is trending towards socialism. Correct me if I'm wrong but the two major factors in the current EU, France and Germeny, are pushing through loads of socialist ideas. France, of course, would nothing like the top seat in the EU (forget the name off the top of my head) so they could stear the EU as a whole into a more socialist direction. The rest of the EU, while not as viralantly socialist leaning as those two, are also trending to many of the similar policies which have socialism at their core. You obviously also appear to have no understanding of what happened in Yugoslavia. It was not a racist issue, it was similar only in the way that religion imposes paradigms of exclusion in the same way in which nationalism does. Tell that to the people who slaughtered one another who referred to each other as different races. To many people race and religion are muddled together in one single lump. Whether science has determined them to be a different race is immaterial to how they acted and why they acted. They believed the other people to be racially different. Not a bad rant, I hope it assisted you in the appropriate level of repressional release. We could probably have a good conversation sometime, if you ever managed to get your facts straight. LOL. Not a rant at all and the facts were straight. Far more than yours. BTW, next time, learn how to trim. Quoting an entire several hundred line message to add 10 or so is utterly rude. But then, considering your hypocricy, ignorance and poor attitude I expected nothing less. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 03:55:21AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: snip Quite frankly I'd be more than happy if the US got out of the world. I'm tired of footing the bill for other nation's defense. I'd love for the US to get out of Isreal and Palastine. Not that we're really *IN* it, mind you, except for urging both sides into talking instead of blowing up marketplaces and bulldozing settlements. Out of the substates of Yugoslavia. Out of the world in general. Let it all go to hell because it is clear that in most cases that's exactly what the people want. Bring it back to our borders and leave it there save for one understanding; any nation messes with us we will retaliate en force. We'll leave you hellbound hypocrocites alone but you had best leave us alone in return. Isolationist but with the right to defend ourselves. Let people come and go as they please. Let the commercial interests do what they will within the bounds of the nations they deal with but as a government, as a nation, let the world be. Stand or fall on its own. It's not our problem. Make the offical comment on every little petty (in your eyes) racial slaughter not our problem. snip The point-by-point rebuttal was rendered moot by this last part. We (the US) must not withdraw from the world and our borders must remain open and we must accept being hated and we must stop being so arrogant and we must do business fairly. Doing so is the price of living in a country where over-eating is a problem. Nobody likes a rich, arrogant, bully. Actually it's encouraging that Debian allows cooperation between socialists and capitalists and isolationists and globalists. It just goes to show you that if you have something to keep you busy then you'll work through the less important differences. I actually like these threads from time to time. To those that don't like them, you can use Mutt and delete threads with a single keystroke. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 08:55:04AM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Uhm, no. I ran with what you agreed Nano said. IE, that Europe was trending towards socialism. You said it was the right direction which means You're getting my part of the thread confused. Katipo originally replied to Paul M. Foster via Dave's List Addy. That was the long rant where the word socialism was used. I replied to Katipo by saying bah. I successfully resisted *that* flamewar! In my 2 trips to Europe I noticed they used the concept Egalitarianism where we used the concept Democracy. Egalitarianism stresses the right to be treated fairly, while Democracy further conveys a sense of the individuals power, right or wrong. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
s. keeling wrote: Ditto that, but if you wonder where it comes from, start up a discussion with RMS sometime. I guarantee you'll be tossing furniture in frustration within hours. The man appears to be impervious to real-world reason. The problem is that it is too easy to think that the Free Software movement is about socialism because the software is given freely when it fact it isn't. There is a cost associated with it, the cost just isn't measured in dollars and cents (or any other currency for that matter). Also if it weren't for the fact that code were so easy to replicate it wouldn't be given freely. The cost is so immaterial that it isn't worth collecting as the act of attempting to quantify the cost let alone collect it is more costly. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
El mié, 28 de ene de 2004, a las 03:55:21 -0800, Steve Lamb dijo: [snip] Could it be because they are listening to their media and believing all of what they say without thinking for themselves? Could it be the limiting view their parochial education and limited political choice? I mean the One out of two representatives of two parties is not what I would call unlimited political choice. [snip] All your pathetic faith placed in personalities like Bush and Cheney, once and still executive figures with Enron and Haliburton, prime examples in the history of corporate corruption, and still not brought to trial. Another misconception in a message full of them. Newsflash, Bush lost the popular vote. There are quite a few people here pissed off about that. Furthermore he has butchered the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Many more people are ticked off about that. If you think that the US is uniformly behind its present you're just plain stupid. I, for one, have no faith in Bush and if it were possible less in Cheney. I didn't vote for them and certainly won't come the next election. I've been vocal about my opposition. Do a google search. This doesn't really matter. I didn't vote for current spanish government but I could not disagree (even less be offended) if somebody told me that Spain (short for the government elected by most of the spanish citizens and not for every single spanish) is heading in the wrong direction. [snip] right! Peh. We never should have gone out in the first place. The thing which I really don't understand is why, if you oppose to what they do, you align with them with this We. My general feeling on all that is that, so far, all kind of governments (in socialist systems, democrat capitalist systems, dictatorships, whatever) have failed miserably. In my opinion, Mankind has survived and progressed in spite of governments. Jose -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Mike M wrote: The point-by-point rebuttal was rendered moot by this last part. We (the US) must not withdraw from the world and our borders must remain open and we must accept being hated and we must stop being so arrogant and we must do business fairly. I never said the borders should be closed. I said that the US (meaning the US government, sorry for being unclear) should not be meddling in the affairs of other nations, PERIOD. *NO* military action. *NO* aid. *NOTHING*. The government should be here govern the US and that's it. If individuals or business want to do something outside the US, have fun. If other individuals or businesses want to come here, all the power to them. But in both those cases it is a mutually consensual agreement and does not come off as something the US Government and this *as a whole nation* is doing and supporting. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Jose Boix wrote: One out of two representatives of two parties is not what I would call unlimited political choice. Funny, last national election I counted 5 parties that I was personally aware of. Republican Democrat Libertarian Green Reform Hint, I am not a member of the first two. This doesn't really matter. I didn't vote for current spanish government but I could not disagree (even less be offended) if somebody told me that Spain (short for the government elected by most of the spanish citizens and not for every single spanish) is heading in the wrong direction. The problem isn't that they limited it to the government elected by most of the US citizens. They said applied to to the population at large. Americans are going the wrong direction and Americans have blind faith in their leaders. Neither of which are true. If they had said the government has some screwed up policies thee would have been no offense becaus that is true. The whole nation being behind those policies, as was clearly stated, is not true. The thing which I really don't understand is why, if you oppose to what they do, you align with them with this We. Because I do believe that We as a national entitiy should not be out there. We as individuals, sure. Two different meanings of we just like there's two different meanings of you (specifically you) and you (generally those not me). In my opinion, Mankind has survived and progressed in spite of governments. I agree. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wednesday 28 January 2004 17:55, Steve Lamb wrote: Katipo wrote: I'd debate the issue, but you have your preferred view that appears to be based on a mixture of misconception and a confused perception of Europe being socialist. Uhm, no. I ran with what you agreed Nano said. IE, that Europe was trending towards socialism. You said it was the right direction which means you agree it is trending towards socialism. Correct me if I'm wrong but the two major factors in the current EU, France and Germeny, are pushing through loads of socialist ideas. France, of course, would nothing like the top seat in the EU (forget the name off the top of my head) so they could stear the EU as a whole into a more socialist direction. The rest of the EU, while not as viralantly socialist leaning as those two, are also trending to many of the similar policies which have socialism at their core. Repeat after Steve: Europe tending towards Socialism, europe tending towards socialism, etc., etc., etc, Nah, sorry, somehow it just doesn't sound right. Can we talk about Debian now? -- Dr.-Ing. C. Hurschler Bodenstedtstr. 13 30173 Hannover -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 12:23:00PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Mike M wrote: The point-by-point rebuttal was rendered moot by this last part. We (the US) must not withdraw from the world and our borders must remain open and we must accept being hated and we must stop being so arrogant and we must do business fairly. I never said the borders should be closed. I said that the US (meaning the US government, sorry for being unclear) should not be meddling in the affairs of other nations, PERIOD. *NO* military action. *NO* aid. *NOTHING*. The government should be here govern the US and that's it. If individuals or business want to do something outside the US, have fun. If other individuals or businesses want to come here, all the power to them. But in both those cases it is a mutually consensual agreement and does not come off as something the US Government and this *as a whole nation* is doing and supporting. The clarification is helpful and I almost agreed with your position. It didn't hold up. There's no way to separate the private concerns from the public ones. How is the business of oil to be separated from the world's current woes? Here's a similar example from history. The industrial revolution in Britain caused massive productivity increases in the textile industry. iAs a result, the demand for Southern US cotton increased correspondingly without a complimentary technical advancement in cotton's production. What was needed was more cheap labor. Who is responsible for the atrocities that followed, consisting of human enslavement, destruction of families, and massive bloodshed in the American Civil War? The engineers and businessmen in Britain? The Southern United States plantation owners? The consumers that loaded up on cheap and plentiful textile products? Elections in the US are high-dollar marketing campaigns. Lot's of dollars come from business concerns outside the US. I have the priviledge of being represented by a person with obligations to non-US interests. So here is an example of foreign meddling in my domestic affairs. Any way you look at it, we can't stop meddling. The US can and should fix much of the meddling it does. Micro-loans directly to individual entreprenuers instead of massive aid packages that ends up in Carribean and Swiss bank accounts is one way. Adopting a journalist's ethics of corroborating a story with independent sources in the intelligence community is another. I think these measures are recommended for not just the US too. -- Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Mike M wrote: There's no way to separate the private concerns from the public ones. How is the business of oil to be separated from the world's current woes? How does government meddling in it improve anything? Who is responsible for the atrocities that followed, consisting of human enslavement, destruction of families, and massive bloodshed in the American Civil War? The engineers and businessmen in Britain? The Southern United States plantation owners? The consumers that loaded up on cheap and plentiful textile products? My vote would be on the slavers and those who bought them, Bob. Deprivation of another individuals rights. In that case it is a local matter. IE the government would police its own population. What it should not do is go out and police the *OTHER* nation's population. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 09:08:17PM +0800, Katipo wrote: I'd debate the issue, but you have your preferred view that appears to be based on a mixture of misconception and a confused perception of Europe being socialist. You obviously also appear to have no understanding of what happened in Yugoslavia. It was not a racist issue, it was similar only in the way that religion imposes paradigms of exclusion in the same way in which nationalism does. Politics, religion, what's the difference? Too many people were slaughtering each other. It needed to be stopped. An effort was made. Less people are being slaughtered in that region of the world. Even if it was done for all the wrong reasons, there are less atrocities being committed. Who will argue in favor of genocide, rape, and torture? -- Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 07:37:00PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Mike M wrote: There's no way to separate the private concerns from the public ones. How is the business of oil to be separated from the world's current woes? How does government meddling in it improve anything? I am not going to defend .gov's oil policy. My point is there has to be an oil policy. You can't disengage and think things will just turn out alright. Who is responsible for the atrocities that followed, consisting of human enslavement, destruction of families, and massive bloodshed in the American Civil War? The engineers and businessmen in Britain? The Southern United States plantation owners? The consumers that loaded up on cheap and plentiful textile products? My vote would be on the slavers and those who bought them, Bob. They are in front of the line. My vote is all of the above. There's blood on all their hands. Some more than others. A lot of people each with a speck of blood on their hands or a few with it dripping from their's, regardless, the crime is done. If you buy the product made with slave labor you are helping the enslavers. We're all connected and we can't disengage. Who's Bob? I'm Mike. Deprivation of another individuals rights. In that case it is a local matter. IE the government would police its own population. What it should not do is go out and police the *OTHER* nation's population. My concept of local and nation are changing. I'm pretty sure we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one. In summary, we cannot take the ball and go home. -- Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Mike M wrote: I am not going to defend .gov's oil policy. My point is there has to be an oil policy. You can't disengage and think things will just turn out alright. Why does there have to be one that includes invasion? They are in front of the line. My vote is all of the above. Even if, by and large, they are ignorant? Sure hope you didnt buy Nike a few years back. There's blood on all their hands. Some more than others. A lot of people each with a speck of blood on their hands or a few with it dripping from their's, regardless, the crime is done. But the question is, what is the appropriate response by the government? Who's Bob? I'm Mike. Bob Barker. My concept of local and nation are changing. I'm pretty sure we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one. So you believe that any time any nation has a problem with out we (meaning your nation) does something it is perfectly OK for them to invade? -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 10:09:57PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Mike M wrote: I am not going to defend .gov's oil policy. My point is there has to be an oil policy. You can't disengage and think things will just turn out alright. Why does there have to be one that includes invasion? There's two things going on (honest): (1) Changing the Arab psyche: from the Greeks forward, the Arabs never fought like men. They believe if merely to survive is victory. I base my statements on John Keegan's A History of War from the introduction of Chariot battle tatics, and again with the Mongols, and again with the Crusades. In Baghdad it is called being an Ali Baba. Short answer is, it only worked with the Mongols, by exceeding them in cruelty. Or, in plain simple terms, we are picking one bully and beating the sh*t out of them. The intention is we won't have to do it to everybody. Trust me, with that culture, it will *work*. (2) The oil thing. Yeah, there's some of that. But do me a favor and separate out (1) from this in your rhetoric. Most of us are really going for (1). Trust me, enough of us have our eyes open checking and balancing forces here, (2) is not what's driving this. (1) is. The best thing you can do about (2) is change cars, the the oil companies will become other kinds of companies. Arabs didn't used to be important 100 years ago. It will be that way again. Actually, that will probably fix (1) as well. Focus on that. Stop worrying about monsters in the closet. My concept of local and nation are changing. I'm pretty sure we're not going to see eye-to-eye on this one. So you believe that any time any nation has a problem with out we (meaning your nation) does something it is perfectly OK for them to invade? What are you, new? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:11:07PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: From what I heard the constitution explicitly defines two types of taxes (I forget the names), but basically they are taxes on things and just you have to pay it taxes, and our government is only supposed to collect the first kind. It was what the big hoopla was with Britain was all about. But you can't fight city hall. So, I agree, our tax system needs to be chucked. But the government needs money, lots of it. That ain't going away. Perhaps you've heard of the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution, explicitly authorizing an income tax? -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading http://www.jabootu.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 05:21:32AM -0500, Carl Fink wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:11:07PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: From what I heard the constitution explicitly defines two types of taxes (I forget the names), but basically they are taxes on things and just you have to pay it taxes, and our government is only supposed to collect the first kind. It was what the big hoopla was with Britain was all about. But you can't fight city hall. So, I agree, our tax system needs to be chucked. But the government needs money, lots of it. That ain't going away. Perhaps you've heard of the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution, explicitly authorizing an income tax? Nope, never had. Well, that's a relief -- it's always good to know there's a plan. Don't mind me, I'm just a sheep grazing over here. Bh! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 15:00:11 -0500 Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 04:49:26 +0100, Jan Minar wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 | Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 | Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 | Canada2 32.262.11 | Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 | Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 | France5.2 60.186.52 | Germany 5.4 82.365.61 | Greece0.3 10.628.30 | Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 | Italy 2.3 57.939.72 | Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 | Luxembourg0.1 0.4 250.00 | Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 | New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 | Norway1.7 4.5 377.78 | Portugal 0.3 10.129.70 | Spain 1.6 40.239.80 | Sweden1.8 8.8 204.55 | Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! Wow, yes, thanks for pointing that out. It must be me who is incapable of reading, because I had no idea, until I saw your post, that 44.44 39.8 or that 44.4 25.64, for instance. Must be the New Math. You ought to file bug reports against gcc, perl, bash etc., because they all think that it's the other way around. Ahh, I let all the other people who never notice the ordering in this off. But you don't deserve it. So in you're best singing voice: a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u w x y and zed (not zee I'm British!) -- OoberMick Ahhh, what an awful dream! Ones and zeroes everywhere... and I thought I saw a two! -- Bender (Futurama) pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 11:37:51 + Michael Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u w x y and zed (not zee I'm British!) Hmm and maybe there should be a v! I knew that would happen! I'd take the piss out the guy for not noticing the order then feck up the alphabet. -- OoberMick Everybody talks about the weather, but nobody does anything about it. -- Mark Twain pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 05:21:32AM -0500, Carl Fink wrote: Perhaps you've heard of the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution, explicitly authorizing an income tax? The first guy I heard talking about this was on AM-radio, back before Tim McVeigh took all the fun out of black helicopters and jack-booted-thugs, and back before the IRS circulated the memo to be nice. I always felt kind of squirrelly cause god knows I don't want to turn into one of *those* guys. But fortunately an entirely different set of whackos is getting into it now. http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2004/01/macguineas.htm And plenty of people talk about a national sales tax. It's not unpatriotic to want to dislike that amendment. The nut-jobs point is that if you just tax stuff, like beer, or tobacco, or just corn, and you dedicate *that* particular tax to *that* particular purpose, well then say the tax on beer pays for the war in Iraq, and you *really* don't agree with that, then you can choose not to support it by not buying beer, and switching to wine instead. But you can't do that if the tax is just on all stuff or your income -- you can't not use all stuff. To that extent only, I agree with it. I personally understand its necessary to be a Good Citizen and most of what the government does doesn't bug me. But I think that it would be A Good Thing. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Carl Fink wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:11:07PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: From what I heard the constitution explicitly defines two types of taxes (I forget the names), but basically they are taxes on things and just you have to pay it taxes, and our government is only supposed to collect the first kind. It was what the big hoopla was with Britain was all about. But you can't fight city hall. So, I agree, our tax system needs to be chucked. But the government needs money, lots of it. That ain't going away. Perhaps you've heard of the Sixteenth Amendment to the Constitution, explicitly authorizing an income tax? Which according to many was never properly ratified: http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/ratification.htm while others point out that the Supreme Court considers it a valid law so this argument is moot: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Embassy/1154/16thamendment.html Even if the 16th were declared void, it wouldn't matter, because since that amendment was passed, the courts have decided that an income tax was constitutional all along, with our without the amendment: http://www.taxableincome.net/articles/othertax/16thamend.html So, my plan: Basic A Plan: Federal Flat tax of 20%, no exceptions. Basic B Plan: For every 2% the individual puts into a qualified retirement plan, up to a total of 10%, the income tax is reduced by 1%. Maximum = 15% to the Federal government + 10% to self-managed retirement plan = 25% Basic C Plan: For every 2% the individual puts into a qualified charity (organization must show 51% of budget going to charitable purposes), up to a total of 10%, the income tax is reduced by 1%. Maximum = 15% to the Federal government + 10% to charity = 25% Basic D Plan: A combination of B C. Maximum = 10% to the Federal governent + 10% to retirement + 10% to charity = 30% People who are already giving 10% to their churches plus 28% to the Feds plus some to their retirement would automatically get to keep more money. People who don't care about taking care of themselves in the future, or about others, would see a drop in their tax burden. Tax time and the IRS would be vastly simplified. Much of the federal welfare program would be shifted to the charities, where each dollar is likely to be spent more efficiently. Churches would all of a sudden put a lot more emphasis on charitable programs, and less on fancy buildings and nice haircuts, to prevent their members from moving their tithes and giving to other organizations. The feds would still get a good chunk of change for the various federal projects. Maybe not a perfect plan, but I like it. -- Kent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 08:26:34AM -0600, Kent West wrote: Even if the 16th were declared void, it wouldn't matter, because since that amendment was passed, the courts have decided that an income tax was constitutional all along, with our without the amendment: http://www.taxableincome.net/articles/othertax/16thamend.html If you read the main page you'll see that this guy is a black-helicopter nutjob too, for different reasons, though. The hostname says it all -- is claim is that many classes of income are not taxable income. Don't go listening to this jerk either. This all goes back to why I say I have sympathy for politicians. You have 50,000 whackos coming at you from mutually orthogonal insane passionately-held positions, and you have to keep people from burning cars. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On 1/26/04 6:00 PM, Paul M Foster wrote: Right On Paul My sentiments exactly, I think the comedian Robin Williams has a bit on what America should do, I don't have it handy, but mirrors those thoughts. Really? And you get that from this table, do you? The *worst*? You know what? I think the we (the U.S.) should cut off aid entirely to the rest of the world. The rest of the world has a serious habit of biting the hand that feeds it. So let them fend for themselves. And here are some guidelines for living in the shadow of the United States of America: 1. Don't call us when you need help fending off the next power-mad psycho bent on enslaving the entire planet. 2. Don't call us when you've finished erecting the full-on socialist state you're busy creating in Europe, and you don't like the results. 3. Don't come here to escape your crushing taxes. 4. Don't come here to avoid your crappy socialized health care system. 5. Don't expect sympathy when 3000 of your citizens become victims of the next Islamist nut job with a plan, who claims he hates the U.S. but inexplicably attacks you instead. 6. Don't come here to find opportunity or the promise of a better life. That includes you, Mexico. 7. Don't expect our help in creating an economy or a society that actually works. Our founding documents are all on the internet for you to peruse. That's how we did it and how we do it. 8. Don't expect to benefit from any technological advances created in the U.S., including new life-saving drugs. 9. Don't call us. Yeah, the U.S. really sucks. And we love hearing it over and over again from people who are cut off from the fruits of observation, and are really incapable of doing anything but whining. Or who really just have a socialist or communist agenda. Paul -- Thanks!! David Thurman List Only at Web Presence Group Net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 13:42:14 -0600 Dave's List Addy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/26/04 6:00 PM, Paul M Foster wrote: Right On Paul My sentiments exactly, I think the comedian Robin Williams has a bit on what America should do, I don't have it handy, but mirrors those thoughts. Really? And you get that from this table, do you? The *worst*? You know what? I think the we (the U.S.) should cut off aid entirely to the rest of the world. The rest of the world has a serious habit of biting the hand that feeds it. So let them fend for themselves. The rest of the world would be extremely grateful. The cost of American 'aid' is generally higher than the initial trauma. And here are some guidelines for living in the shadow of the United States of America: 1. Don't call us when you need help fending off the next power-mad psycho bent on enslaving the entire planet. This personality is your current president, ably assisted by a cabal of like personalities. 2. Don't call us when you've finished erecting the full-on socialist state you're busy creating in Europe, and you don't like the results. I'm not European, but from my objective viewpoint, they seem to be heading in the right direction. Why don't you just get your totally unnecessary military bases out of there. You only went in to Yugoslavia because after the russian withdrawal from east Germany, there was no more justification to stay on in west Germany (although, I note you are still there), to maintain a military base on the european continent. 3. Don't come here to escape your crushing taxes. Imposed as a necessity to pay off the exhorbitant cost of American 'aid.' 4. Don't come here to avoid your crappy socialized health care system. The only westernized nation that spends less on health care/capita than the U.S. is Turkey. 5. Don't expect sympathy when 3000 of your citizens become victims of the next Islamist nut job with a plan, who claims he hates the U.S. but inexplicably attacks you instead. And where is this occuring, other than with your 'friends and allies.' 6. Don't come here to find opportunity or the promise of a better life. That includes you, Mexico. The opportunity and the promise of a better life are all things of the past in America. It's true that the U.S. have taken in many from other cultures, it's also true that it is also the standout hotbed of racism in the world today. There are reasons for that, other than the insular, parochial educational and political formats imposed on your population, and obvious in your limited viewpoint. Your national baseball competition is termed the 'World Series.' When I visit your country, my visa is stamped with the word 'alien' as if I am not of the same species, perhaps not even from the same planet. If you look around, you will observe many other symptoms of the disease, but this will not slow you down in your headlong flight into lunacy. A U.S. open source advocate that spent some time overseas recently, returned to the states and noted in his writing that it was fashionable to hate America throughout the world at the moment. It's not fashion, it is more substantial than that. But clowns like you that read and believe every word in your tame press will not even pause to consider why this might be. Why an ever accelerating number of world citizens, ordinary everyday people, are rapidly taking up this perception. In the not too distant future, the U.S. is going to be the last bastion of human existence in a world totally populated otherwise by terrorists, and still you will refuse to consider that you are going in the wrong direction. All your pathetic faith placed in personalities like Bush and Cheney, once and still executive figures with Enron and Haliburton, prime examples in the history of corporate corruption, and still not brought to trial. I note that Haliburton recently finished its' allocated contract in the restoration of Iraqi oil reserves. Jobs for the boys. I note also, in passing, that Iraq possessed 25% of the worlds' oil reserves. I employ the past tense because it doesn't anymore, does it? 7. Don't expect our help in creating an economy or a society that actually works. Our founding documents are all on the internet for you to peruse. That's how we did it and how we do it. Advertised, but not adhered to. Franklins' America doesn't exist anymore. 8. Don't expect to benefit from any technological advances created in the U.S., including new life-saving drugs. Derived from global forests that are being mown down at a phenomenal rate by American timber interests, given the nod by American backed South American dictators trained in the school of the americas in Georgia, U.S.A. The potential for new, life-saving drugs is being destroyed faster than the current species extinction rate. 9. Don't call us. Well, we are still trying to, the lights are on, but no one
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 05:26:52AM +0800, Katipo wrote: The only westernized nation that spends less on health care/capita than the U.S. is Turkey. You are forgetting the private sector. It's the best in the world for those who can get it. True, it's not distributed uniformly, but our poor are the healthiest and fattest on the planet. [snip the rest] Bah. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Carl Fink wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:57:38PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote: I'd suggest that comparing ethnic groups with religious groups is rather like comparing apples to oranges. I'm assuming that you meant to imply either the expenditures for keeping the MUSLIMS safe from their Christian tormentors. Or, otherwise, expenditures for keeping the Bosnians and Albanians safe from their SERB tormentors. Both statements are sure to anger a great number of people. The former will undoubtedly anger Christians the world over, while the latter will (and just did) offend Serbs the world over. :) Albanians are ethnically different from the Serbs. The ONLY difference between Serbs, Croats, and Bosnian Muslims is religious. They are genetically and linguistically and mostly culturally identical, or rather homogeneous, although these days some weird post-facto nationalists are pretending that there are separate languages and cultures. oh wow, you're SO wrong. unless 'these days' is pretty much the same as thousand years or so :-) actually 'yugoslavia' is fairly recent artificial term... erik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 02:57:35PM -0800, Erik Steffl wrote: Carl Fink wrote: oh wow, you're SO wrong. unless 'these days' is pretty much the same as thousand years or so :-) actually 'yugoslavia' is fairly recent artificial term... I'm very irritated by your and Alex's comments, but I agree that this is off-topic. Can we all just drop this subject? Alternatively I can create a Mailman list to actually discuss it without polluting this mailing list. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading http://www.jabootu.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 | Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 | Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 | Canada2 32.262.11 | Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 | Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 | France5.2 60.186.52 | Germany 5.4 82.365.61 | Greece0.3 10.628.30 | Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 | Italy 2.3 57.939.72 | Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 | Luxembourg0.1 0.4 250.00 | Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 | New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 | Norway1.7 4.5 377.78 | Portugal 0.3 10.129.70 | Spain 1.6 40.239.80 | Sweden1.8 8.8 204.55 | Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! -- Jan Minar Please don't CC me, I'm subscribed. x 9 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Incoming from Jan Minar: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 | Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 | Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 | Canada 2 32.262.11 | Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 | Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 | France 5.2 60.186.52 | Germany 5.4 82.365.61 | Greece 0.3 10.628.30 | Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 | Italy 2.3 57.939.72 | Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 | Luxembourg 0.1 0.4 250.00 | Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 | New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 | Norway 1.7 4.5 377.78 | Portugal0.3 10.129.70 | Spain 1.6 40.239.80 | Sweden 1.8 8.8 204.55 | Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! Lies, damn lies, ... I think the world's needy are going to be far happier with the US 12.9 billion than they are going to be with Canada's paltry 2.0 billion. Or would you prefer they had Norway's _massive_ (per Capita) contribution of only 1.7 billion? The US does lots of stupid (and just plain wrong) things. No-one should be criticizing them on this though. Why is it the world's other superpowers (Russia/CIS, PRC) don't even show up on this list? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 01:19:38PM -0700, s. keeling wrote: Incoming from Jan Minar: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 | Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 | Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 | Canada 2 32.262.11 | Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 | Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 | France 5.2 60.186.52 | Germany 5.4 82.365.61 | Greece 0.3 10.628.30 | Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 | Italy 2.3 57.939.72 | Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 | Luxembourg 0.1 0.4 250.00 | Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 | New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 | Norway 1.7 4.5 377.78 | Portugal0.3 10.129.70 | Spain 1.6 40.239.80 | Sweden 1.8 8.8 204.55 | Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! Lies, damn lies, ... I think the world's needy are going to be far happier with the US 12.9 I don't know about the world's needy, but I do remember (well, perhaps not too accurately, perhaps :)) reading some years ago that 48 per cent of what was called US foreign aid was accounted for by what had to be paid to Israel and Egypt to keep them from each other's throats. billion than they are going to be with Canada's paltry 2.0 billion. Or would you prefer they had Norway's _massive_ (per Capita) contribution of only 1.7 billion? The US does lots of stupid (and just plain wrong) things. No-one should be criticizing them on this though. Why is it the world's other superpowers (Russia/CIS, PRC) don't even show up on this list? -- Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced. (*) http://www.spots.ab.ca/~keeling - - -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- David Jardine Running Debian GNU/Linux and loving every minute of it. -Sacher M. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 01:19:38PM -0700, s. keeling wrote: I think the world's needy are going to be far happier with the US 12.9 billion than they are going to be with Canada's paltry 2.0 billion. Or would you prefer they had Norway's _massive_ (per Capita) contribution of only 1.7 billion? Norway is basically Saudi Arabia -- tons of oil money of the North Sea. That explains *them*. Naively I would say the US should be giving about $55/person, maybe increase our aid by say $4 billion/year. Parity is not structurally important at these scales, as s. keeling says, but anything which reduces the rhetorical strength of the terrorists and eurosnobs is probably useful. The US does lots of stupid (and just plain wrong) things. No-one should be criticizing them on this though. Why is it the world's other superpowers (Russia/CIS, PRC) don't even show up on this list? China is not yet a superpower, but they soon will be. China is still very poor. I am reading Many Globalizations by Berger and Huntington. I used to think China and Japan were similar. They are not. Japan is a net exporter of culture (comic books, cars, sushi); China is not. In Japan, they eat out more than they eat at home, and the kids blue jeans. China's not like that, nor are they becoming that. In China the party-state still controls most significant business, and communism is being replaced with the Confucian Merchant -- the scholar-businessman. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 01:51:20PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: [...], but anything which reduces the rhetorical strength of the terrorists and eurosnobs is probably useful. YMMD. -- Rico -mc- Gloeckner | 1024D/61F05B8C | jabber:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.ukeer.de |RICO-RIPE | sip:[EMAIL PROTECTED] == mv ~/.signature http://www.ukeer.de/signature.html == -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On 1/26/04 3:51 PM, Nano Nano wrote: Naively I would say the US should be giving about $55/person Yeah Right! With world opinion of the US, many are lucky that the 12.9 is even given. Charity starts at home. -- Thanks!! David Thurman List Only at Web Presence Group Net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 04:49:26AM +0100, Jan Minar wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 | Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 | Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 | Canada 2 32.262.11 | Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 | Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 | France 5.2 60.186.52 | Germany 5.4 82.365.61 | Greece 0.3 10.628.30 | Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 | Italy 2.3 57.939.72 | Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 | Luxembourg 0.1 0.4 250.00 | Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 | New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 | Norway 1.7 4.5 377.78 | Portugal0.3 10.129.70 | Spain 1.6 40.239.80 | Sweden 1.8 8.8 204.55 | Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! Really? And you get that from this table, do you? The *worst*? You know what? I think the we (the U.S.) should cut off aid entirely to the rest of the world. The rest of the world has a serious habit of biting the hand that feeds it. So let them fend for themselves. And here are some guidelines for living in the shadow of the United States of America: 1. Don't call us when you need help fending off the next power-mad psycho bent on enslaving the entire planet. 2. Don't call us when you've finished erecting the full-on socialist state you're busy creating in Europe, and you don't like the results. 3. Don't come here to escape your crushing taxes. 4. Don't come here to avoid your crappy socialized health care system. 5. Don't expect sympathy when 3000 of your citizens become victims of the next Islamist nut job with a plan, who claims he hates the U.S. but inexplicably attacks you instead. 6. Don't come here to find opportunity or the promise of a better life. That includes you, Mexico. 7. Don't expect our help in creating an economy or a society that actually works. Our founding documents are all on the internet for you to peruse. That's how we did it and how we do it. 8. Don't expect to benefit from any technological advances created in the U.S., including new life-saving drugs. 9. Don't call us. Yeah, the U.S. really sucks. And we love hearing it over and over again from people who are cut off from the fruits of observation, and are really incapable of doing anything but whining. Or who really just have a socialist or communist agenda. Paul -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
* Paul M Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-01-26 19:00 -0500]: On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 04:49:26AM +0100, Jan Minar wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 | Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 | Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 | Canada2 32.262.11 | Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 | Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 | France5.2 60.186.52 | Germany 5.4 82.365.61 | Greece0.3 10.628.30 | Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 | Italy 2.3 57.939.72 | Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 | Luxembourg0.1 0.4 250.00 | Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 | New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 | Norway1.7 4.5 377.78 | Portugal 0.3 10.129.70 | Spain 1.6 40.239.80 | Sweden1.8 8.8 204.55 | Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! much snippage Okay, I apologize for the off topic post, I promise it'll be my last. This is not aimed at Paul in particular, he just happened to be there. My comment follows: Can any of you folks say alphabetical order? 8-) Thank you. -- Colin KeefeWe never do anything well till we cease [EMAIL PROTECTED] to think about the manner of doing it. -William Hazlitt signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
Dave's List Addy wrote: Yeah Right! With world opinion of the US, many are lucky that the 12.9 is even given. Charity starts at home. Charity is not coerced. How much of those figures is actual charity and how much are just the different states spending their populations money with little to no say from the population on where their $x/person goes? I almost guarentee that my $55/person (which given my pay scale is more like $110 from me) is most certainly not going where I'd even remotely want it to go. -- Steve C. Lamb | I'm your priest, I'm your shrink, I'm your PGP Key: 8B6E99C5 | main connection to the switchboard of souls. ---+- signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 02:54:45AM +0100, David Jardine wrote: I don't know about the world's needy, but I do remember (well, perhaps not too accurately, perhaps :)) reading some years ago that 48 per cent of what was called US foreign aid was accounted for by what had to be paid to Israel and Egypt to keep them from each other's throats. Sure, but does the 12.9 billion figure include the defense expenditures for keeping the Bosnians and Albanians safe from their Christian tormentors? For that matter, why is buying peace not a valid use of foreign aid? -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading http://www.jabootu.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 04:57:15PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: Dave's List Addy wrote: Yeah Right! With world opinion of the US, many are lucky that the 12.9 is even given. Charity starts at home. Charity is not coerced. How much of those figures is actual charity and how much are just the different states spending their populations money with little to no say from the population on where their $x/person goes? I almost guarentee that my $55/person (which given my pay scale is more like $110 from me) is most certainly not going where I'd even remotely want it to go. It's only $44/person now. I was suggesting the increase to $55. One might also question the methodology of calculating these figures -- do they include private or church aid? do commercial activities provide aid? Maybe the picture is different that way, who knows? Although these #s sound like what is reported on the news. I personally wouldn't mind a tax increase of $11/year to cover it. It would be neat if they presented my tax bill as a line item! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Monday 26 January 2004 7:00 pm, Paul M Foster wrote: Yeah, the U.S. really sucks. And we love hearing it over and over again from people who are cut off from the fruits of observation, and are really incapable of doing anything but whining. Or who really just have a socialist or communist agenda. Paul Amen. As a paleolibertarian/paleoconservative I'm totally opposed to the current US foreign policy. However, as far as these so-called taxes go, they are nothing more than state-imposed slavery. You want my $55 Nano-Nano? Come ring my fucking doorbell. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 04:49:26 +0100, Jan Minar wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 | Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 | Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 | Canada 2 32.262.11 | Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 | Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 | France 5.2 60.186.52 | Germany 5.4 82.365.61 | Greece 0.3 10.628.30 | Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 | Italy 2.3 57.939.72 | Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 | Luxembourg 0.1 0.4 250.00 | Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 | New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 | Norway 1.7 4.5 377.78 | Portugal0.3 10.129.70 | Spain 1.6 40.239.80 | Sweden 1.8 8.8 204.55 | Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! Wow, yes, thanks for pointing that out. It must be me who is incapable of reading, because I had no idea, until I saw your post, that 44.44 39.8 or that 44.4 25.64, for instance. Must be the New Math. You ought to file bug reports against gcc, perl, bash etc., because they all think that it's the other way around. -- paul It is important to realize that any lock can be picked with a big enough hammer. -- Sun System Network Admin manual -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 19:03, Carl Fink wrote: On Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 02:54:45AM +0100, David Jardine wrote: I don't know about the world's needy, but I do remember (well, perhaps not too accurately, perhaps :)) reading some years ago that 48 per cent of what was called US foreign aid was accounted for by what had to be paid to Israel and Egypt to keep them from each other's throats. Sure, but does the 12.9 billion figure include the defense expenditures for keeping the Bosnians and Albanians safe from their Christian tormentors? I'd suggest that comparing ethnic groups with religious groups is rather like comparing apples to oranges. I'm assuming that you meant to imply either the expenditures for keeping the MUSLIMS safe from their Christian tormentors. Or, otherwise, expenditures for keeping the Bosnians and Albanians safe from their SERB tormentors. Both statements are sure to anger a great number of people. The former will undoubtedly anger Christians the world over, while the latter will (and just did) offend Serbs the world over. :) But, getting back to the subject at hand, I don't think that 12.9 billion would involve the US presence in the Balkans as it is primarily military, not humanitarian. For that matter, why is buying peace not a valid use of foreign aid? For the same reason that giving a kid $5 to be your friend is not a valid use of your parents money. :) Peace that is bought isn't peace at all. Restrained tensions that are kept at bay by having cash thrown at them will escalate at the slightest provocation, at which point all of Bush's advisers and all his men won't put the Middle East back together again. -- Alex Malinovich Support Free Software, delete your Windows partition TODAY! Encrypted mail preferred. You can get my public key from any of the pgp.net keyservers. Key ID: A6D24837 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:57:38PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote: I'd suggest that comparing ethnic groups with religious groups is rather like comparing apples to oranges. I'm assuming that you meant to imply either the expenditures for keeping the MUSLIMS safe from their Christian tormentors. Or, otherwise, expenditures for keeping the Bosnians and Albanians safe from their SERB tormentors. Both statements are sure to anger a great number of people. The former will undoubtedly anger Christians the world over, while the latter will (and just did) offend Serbs the world over. :) Albanians are ethnically different from the Serbs. The ONLY difference between Serbs, Croats, and Bosnian Muslims is religious. They are genetically and linguistically and mostly culturally identical, or rather homogeneous, although these days some weird post-facto nationalists are pretending that there are separate languages and cultures. I emphasized Christian tormentors because the feeling in the Arab world that Americans are anti-Muslim offends me deeply. Most of our last several military actions have been to help or defend Muslims, often against Christians. (I personally am neither.) Not just Albania and Bosnia, but Bangladeshi flood relief and so on. -- Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabootu's Minister of Proofreading http://www.jabootu.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:13:12PM -0500, Jeff Elkins wrote: As a paleolibertarian/paleoconservative I'm totally opposed to the current US foreign policy. However, as far as these so-called taxes go, they are nothing more than state-imposed slavery. You want my $55 Nano-Nano? Come ring my fucking doorbell. Hey, don't come bitching to me, I'll talk your ears off. My grandfather was 30 before we had income taxes (during the depression). They ain't written in stone, it's my mission in life to replace them with a national sales tax. From what I heard the constitution explicitly defines two types of taxes (I forget the names), but basically they are taxes on things and just you have to pay it taxes, and our government is only supposed to collect the first kind. It was what the big hoopla was with Britain was all about. But you can't fight city hall. So, I agree, our tax system needs to be chucked. But the government needs money, lots of it. That ain't going away. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, 26 Jan 2004 23:11:25 -0500 Carl Fink [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:57:38PM -0600, Alex Malinovich wrote: I'd suggest that comparing ethnic groups with religious groups is rather like comparing apples to oranges. I'm assuming that you meant to imply either the expenditures for keeping the MUSLIMS safe from their Christian tormentors. Or, otherwise, expenditures for keeping the Bosnians and Albanians safe from their SERB tormentors. Both statements are sure to anger a great number of people. The former will undoubtedly anger Christians the world over, while the latter will (and just did) offend Serbs the world over. :) Albanians are ethnically different from the Serbs. The ONLY difference between Serbs, Croats, and Bosnian Muslims is religious. They are genetically and linguistically and mostly culturally identical, or rather homogeneous, although these days some weird post-facto nationalists are pretending that there are separate languages and cultures. Sorry, couldn't let this one go by. Differences between these groups are profound, and have been for a lot longer that 'just these days.' I emphasized Christian tormentors because the feeling in the Arab world that Americans are anti-Muslim offends me deeply. Most of our last several military actions have been to help or defend Muslims, often against Christians. (I personally am neither.) Not just Albania and Bosnia, but Bangladeshi flood relief and so on. The apparent motive has been to 'defend the muslims.' But not the real one. Alex is right. The potential to cause real offense in discussion of these issues is unavoidable. I would seriously suggest no discussion at all unless those involved learned at least a little about what they are talking about. At the very least, take it off-list. The Serbs gave a lot of gold to Austria to purchase Croatia back to recreate a united Yugoslavia eight or nine hundred years ago. 'Just lately?' During the second world war, Croatians locked up Serbs in concentration camps, and bludgeoned them to death with hammers. 'No differences?' This is more than OT, it has become an example of highly offensive drivel. Regards, David. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 06:59:04PM -0600, Colin Keefe wrote: * Paul M Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-01-26 19:00 -0500]: On Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 04:49:26AM +0100, Jan Minar wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 05:01:17PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: Here's another view of that data: What about this one?: | Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person | Australia 1 19.750.76 snip | U K 4.7 60 78.33 | USA 12.9290.3 44.44 As any person capable of reading can see, The US *are* the worst! snip Can any of you folks say alphabetical order? 8-) It was sed(1), by the way ;-) Now the interesting part is that this went unnoticed by so many, and so many so renowned. -- Jan Minar Please don't CC me, I'm subscribed. x 9 pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to mention the fact that the US is following more than one thread by being by far the largest donor of aid to poorer nations Google for foreign aid usa denmark netherlands and you'll find things like http://www.just1world.org/development-aid.htm or http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html which show that this is untrue to say the least. Wrt Iraq: Search Google News for David Kay. Google is one of the best American companies. Use their tools to your advantage. Mike. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 11:29:02PM +, Miquel van Smoorenburg wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to mention the fact that the US is following more than one thread by being by far the largest donor of aid to poorer nations Google for foreign aid usa denmark netherlands and you'll find things like http://www.just1world.org/development-aid.htm or http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html which show that this is untrue to say the least. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Fact is we feed more people than them: TRUE. Anything more than that is politics. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nano Nano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 11:29:02PM +, Miquel van Smoorenburg wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to mention the fact that the US is following more than one thread by being by far the largest donor of aid to poorer nations Google for foreign aid usa denmark netherlands and you'll find things like http://www.just1world.org/development-aid.htm or http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html which show that this is untrue to say the least. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Amen. Fact is we feed more people than them: TRUE. Well, may I refer you to the first line of your posting. Thanks. Mike. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] Bruce Perens talks to BBC
On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 04:16:24PM -0800, Nano Nano wrote: On Sat, Jan 24, 2004 at 11:29:02PM +, Miquel van Smoorenburg wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Morgan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to mention the fact that the US is following more than one thread by being by far the largest donor of aid to poorer nations Google for foreign aid usa denmark netherlands and you'll find things like http://www.just1world.org/development-aid.htm or http://www.vexen.co.uk/USA/foreign_aid.html which show that this is untrue to say the least. Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Fact is we feed more people than them: TRUE. Here's another view of that data: Country Aid(Billions) People(Millions) Dollars/Person Norway 1.7 4.5 377.78 Denmark 1.6 5.3 301.89 Luxembourg 0.1 0.4 250.00 Netherlands 3.4 16.1211.18 Sweden 1.8 8.8 204.55 Switzerland 0.9 7.3 123.29 Belgium 1.1 10.2107.84 Ireland 0.4 3.9 102.56 Finland 0.5 5.1 98.04 France 5.2 60.186.52 U K 4.7 60 78.33 Japan 9.2 127.2 72.33 Germany 5.4 82.365.61 Canada 2 32.262.11 Austria 0.5 8.1 61.73 Australia 1 19.750.76 USA 12.9290.3 44.44 Spain 1.6 40.239.80 Italy 2.3 57.939.72 Portugal0.3 10.129.70 Greece 0.3 10.628.30 New Zealand 0.1 3.9 25.64 Under this view, the US is not the worst -- but we still have room for improvement. I would interpret this data as saying the Scandanvian countries have few responsibilities such as defense or the poor of their own country, therefore they have lots of extra money for giving away. I would explain the other data as: Partly, none of the other countries spend much on their military. If the US didn't do it, they'd have to, and their aid would shrink. Partly, what you're accusing the US of, greed. There's some of that. But it's more complicated than you're saying. These numbers don't exist in a vacuum. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
