Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat 18 Nov 2023 at 08:58:41 (-0800), Peter Ehlert wrote: > thread back from the dead: > first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions > > I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. > Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. > > My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help > me, Kudos to webmasters dot com > > IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know > who to trust > > I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. > > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages > on the server? Well, sorting by Date, mutt lists your post at position: 33858 L 231118 Peter Ehlert (1.2K) Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail out of a total of 33910 on the server (in the UK). The posts are also all on this machine here: ~/.cache/mutt/imaps:a...@def.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ ls -1 | wc -l 35700 ~/.cache/mutt/imaps:a...@def.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ du -sh 630M. ~/.cache/mutt/imaps:a...@def.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ (Some posts in my cache are orphaned, for straightforward reasons I won't bother to explain here.) Cheers, David.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 10:15:56 -0600
Mike McClain wrote:
Hello Mike,
>A second item that's slightly off topic, I've had no luck setting
>up claws-mail to send out through frontier.net and if anyone knows how
>to do that I'd appreciate the claws-mail setup for it.
Without knowing what you've done, or what errors you receive I can only
suggest you start here;
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/frontier/SLN3792.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8_referrer_sig=AQAAAG4cywIUVM3DYW6VMJeB1xaQhcvotPg06bOVj7Tb3448LcW98YDlSSI1OkiM4pvd7XeUtYcONDXOfK3QNQo_2RENbJHWxu886aFSXyIIQOiwej-BaH-m5hkpIaUvRM8FMziZ13JvH-SstaPrJrRhlHTSNJCzv_R7CSAdhJOhI-Ql&_guc_consent_skip=1700504498
Specifically the part Verify POP or IMAP settings.
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Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Monday 20 November 2023 11:15:56 am Mike McClain wrote: > Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from > gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all > messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server. That's exactly what I'm doing here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Mon, 2023-11-20 at 10:15 -0600, Mike McClain wrote: > Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from > gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all > messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server. > I saw a message making that point several years ago, I'm sure I've mentioned that here before. I did it in my last job as my employer used Google for mail, so I just forwarded everything to an email account on my email server at home. -- Tixy
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server. I saw a message making that point several years ago, probably here, and seldom log into gmail but get all messages sent to my gmail accounts by others. A second item that's slightly off topic, I've had no luck setting up claws-mail to send out through frontier.net and if anyone knows how to do that I'd appreciate the claws-mail setup for it. Thanks, Mike -- Telling pious lies to trusting children is a form of abuse, plain and simple. - Daniel Dennett, 2010-01-12
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 19/11/2023 17:50, Tixy wrote: On Sun, 2023-11-19 at 07:58 -0800, Peter Ehlert wrote: Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? My question was incomplete. I should have added that I must have local copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge. --- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my only choice. < --- I don't see why you need POP to filter email. Your email client will almost certainly let you create filters to process and delete emails. E.g. I use IMAP with Evolution mail client and have various filters for spam and kill files. Amongst the many filter options is the ability to pipe new messages to an external program and the perform actions on the result. That's how I implement killfiles for this email list, I have a bash script to match email headers against a kill list and then if my script returns 'true' I have evolution set to delete them. Depending on your IMAP server, you may even be able to use "Sieve" scripts to perform the filtering on the server (i.e. before you even download the messages to a client). Sieve scripts can look at headers and bodies, so you can do simple things like "Messages from my family get moved to the 'Family' folder", "messages with a subject that contains 'debian-user' get moved to the 'debian-user' folder", to more complicated things like "auto reply to subscription-confirmation emails". OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sun, 2023-11-19 at 07:58 -0800, Peter Ehlert wrote: > > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave > > messages > > on the server? > My question was incomplete. I should have added that I must have > local > copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge. > --- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my > only choice. < --- I don't see why you need POP to filter email. Your email client will almost certainly let you create filters to process and delete emails. E.g. I use IMAP with Evolution mail client and have various filters for spam and kill files. Amongst the many filter options is the ability to pipe new messages to an external program and the perform actions on the result. That's how I implement killfiles for this email list, I have a bash script to match email headers against a kill list and then if my script returns 'true' I have evolution set to delete them. -- Tixy
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 11/18/23 08:58, Peter Ehlert wrote: thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com the Kudos was premature. they provided unclear/wrong instructions. I said screw it and did "the wrong thing" and expected to loose the copious pent-up messages, but it Did Work. I'm good. IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? My question was incomplete. I should have added that I must have local copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge. --- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my only choice. < --- thanks! On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. Tbird still sucks in several ways. However the many alternatives suck worse in my opinion. Old dogs and all of that. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
pardon the top posting. I made a minor change to the security settings that Webmasters omitted (or said Not to do) in their documentation for the security upgrades on their servers, and it's working again. a couple thousand messages to clean and sort, but my will filters do 97% of that. I will message their support and help them correct their error. thanks for listening. Peter Ehlert On 11/18/23 09:06, peter ehlert wrote: damn! I forgot... not able to receive on my POP mail accounts! now using the hateful Gmail... maybe that's why Thunderbird can't use a mailing list, they don't trust their own email app. Eff Them! On 11/18/23 08:58, Peter Ehlert wrote: thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 11:57:03 +
Joe wrote:
Hello Joe,
>On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:31:31 +
>Brad Rogers wrote:
>> Can be altered in Prefs.
>> Display; Summaries Message list tab "Mark message as read" section.
>Thank you. I never told it to do that.
I think (but don't quote me) it's the default in CM. And with the large
number of settings, it's easy to miss it.
Took me a while to find the right section before responding to to your
post:
I *know* it's there somewhere.. :-l
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Does she always shout at you, does she tell you what to do
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Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:20:49 +
Joe wrote:
Hello Joe,
>currently, selecting an email in the list marks it as read, which is not
Can be altered in Prefs.
Display; Summaries Message list tab "Mark message as read" section.
--
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Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sun 19 Nov 2023 at 04:29:57 (+), Tim Woodall wrote: > On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, Joe wrote: > > > If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server > > using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may > > help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not > > return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is > > to assist security. > > I'd assume you need to use something like openssl s_client rather than > telnet to port 993. Sure, but you still need to know what to type (assuming that's what you do), because it just sits there rather than blurting it all out: $ openssl s_client -starttls imap -crlf -connect lionunicorn.co.uk:993 CONNECTED(0003) and nothing happens until: ^C 130 $ OTOH, openssl to port 143 is a bit more informative. Cheers, David.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, Joe wrote: If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is to assist security. I'd assume you need to use something like openssl s_client rather than telnet to port 993.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 19/11/23 08:04, jeremy ardley wrote: On 19/11/23 01:59, Alex wrote: IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via right-click -> delete. A client can also alter messages retained on a server or event insert new messages. This is interesting in computer forensics. It means that if an email is on a server e.g. hotmail or gmail, it has no probative value unless supported by other evidence such as server records, digital signatures, or corroborating evidence on other systems. In my professional cyber-forensic practice I have tested just how much you can alter in an email on a server. The answer is essentially everything. All headers, dates, content etc. Server records of email receipt are usually transient so after a few months they can no longer be used as corroboration. Incidentally, I am using gmail for this list. They have made a recent(?) change so that an email that is sent to the debian list automatically gets a 'copy' in the inbox. In fact it's just a view of the sent email. They then drop any copy received from the list, probably based on matching the email ID field (?) From a forensic perspective, gmail only ever stores one copy of an email based on its email ID. The altering emails on the server trick involves creating a modified copy with a different ID field, deleting the original email and so removing its ID from gmail, then altering the ID of the copy to the original ID.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 19/11/23 01:59, Alex wrote: IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via right-click -> delete. A client can also alter messages retained on a server or event insert new messages. This is interesting in computer forensics. It means that if an email is on a server e.g. hotmail or gmail, it has no probative value unless supported by other evidence such as server records, digital signatures, or corroborating evidence on other systems. In my professional cyber-forensic practice I have tested just how much you can alter in an email on a server. The answer is essentially everything. All headers, dates, content etc. Server records of email receipt are usually transient so after a few months they can no longer be used as corroboration.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:20:49 + Joe wrote: > Claws cannot compose HTML emails, which may be a showstopper for you. > It can display HTML, though I always use plain text. If I really need > to see HTML, such as when an unsubscribe link is buried in 100K of > useless markup, I use a webmail client. I hate webmail. Instead of the webmail client: To the right of the message body, or just above it, you can see the various parts of a MIME message. Right click (mouse 3, typically) on the entry for the HTML part of the email. Click on "display as text". That usually displays the link correctly. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:58:41 -0800 Peter Ehlert wrote: > thread back from the dead: > first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions > > I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. > Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will > suffice. > > My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help > me, Kudos to webmasters dot com > > IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't > know who to trust > > I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. > > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave > messages on the server? Yes, IMAP is server-oriented, POP3 is single-client oriented. It's not unusual for me to have my IMAP account open in more than one client simultaneously. If you're having problems, it may be to do with the email policy in use at the server, mostly password authentication. Standard IMAP port is 143, encrypted is 993 though often 143 will also accept encryption. If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is to assist security. $ telnet myserver 143 Trying 192.168.xx.yy Connected to myserver. Escape character is '^]'. * OK [CAPABILITY IMAP4rev1 LITERAL+ SASL-IR LOGIN-REFERRALS ID ENABLE IDLE STARTTLS AUTH=PLAIN] Dovecot ready. Any mention of SSL, TLS or AUTH is likely to be important. > > On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: > > > > > > I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the > > GUI has been slowly been changed. > > lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My > > Way. Minor success. > > > > also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and > > easy backups. > > > > In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few > > filters and rearrange my copious folders. > > > > Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? > > the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but > > I know little of the history and stability. It goes back a couple of decades, and was originally a fork of Sylpheed, which also still exists. I've used it for at least five years, when I started to find TB too bloated and slow. I never used its calendar, I have an SQL-based calendar. Claws gets occasional bugs, irritating rather than serious e.g. currently, selecting an email in the list marks it as read, which is not always what I want, and is not normal behaviour. IMAP does folders, something that POP3 clients simulate but which really exist on an IMAP server, and I often want to drag an email to a folder while leaving it marked unread. It will get fixed. > > > > secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? No, I'm using quite a lot of filters on two Usenet groups in mine. Claws cannot compose HTML emails, which may be a showstopper for you. It can display HTML, though I always use plain text. If I really need to see HTML, such as when an unsubscribe link is buried in 100K of useless markup, I use a webmail client. I hate webmail. -- Joe
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:58:41 -0800 Peter Ehlert wrote: > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave > messages on the server? That's why IMAP exists to begin with. IMAP was made to make it possible for multiple clients to manage the same mailbox[1]. IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via right-click -> delete. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAP -- Current PGP KeyID: 0AFB427F1800FD89751C4035292228735AE707FF https://blueselene.com/pgp-archive/0AFB427F1800FD89751C4035292228735AE707FF/key.pub pgptlvRoDcw38.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
damn! I forgot... not able to receive on my POP mail accounts! now using the hateful Gmail... maybe that's why Thunderbird can't use a mailing list, they don't trust their own email app. Eff Them! On 11/18/23 08:58, Peter Ehlert wrote: thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
