Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 09:58:43PM -0600, Mark Allums wrote: Earlier, I wrote what I think was a confusing reply to this. ... o QEMU is emulation. o Virtualbox is Full virtualization. o QEMU+KVM is a funny beast, it is paravirtualization with kernel virtualization, you need hardware CPU support for it o kqemu is a kernel module accelerator with kernel virtualization, no hardware support needed, but it gives poor speed. QEMU more-or-less has KVM built into it since about version 0.10. Wikipedia has a lot of articles about virtualization, so I would go there for more. Go with Virtualbox unless you have some special need. Hi. I think you misunderstood my question. I'm trying to switch from xen to kvm, because xen just doesn't work on that particular server. QEMU provides emulation for IO and uses KVM for memory/cpu virtualization. In Debian Squeeze, there are two packages for qemu, one named qemu, the other qemu-kvm. Both are based on version 0.11.1 of qemu and both supposedly support kvm. My question is, why there are two apparently identical qemu packages. Which one should I use with kvm. thanks mk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100308124152.gb20...@finrod
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
Martin Kraus wrote: My question is, why there are two apparently identical qemu packages. Which one should I use with kvm. ** I didn't take the time to check that out, so I may be wrong ** The kvm userspace utility is in fact a modified qemu which takes advantage of hardware tech via the kvm kernel subsystem - and nothing more. You can see the command-line resemblance, and the fact that the kvm package is just a virtual package provided by qemu-kvm. To answer your question, I'd say you just can't use kvm without the modified qemu utility (named kvm, provided by qemu-kvm). And if you can, well, you should still use it, since it has to be developed for some reason (supposedly optimization). -thib -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b94fc4c.6070...@stammed.net
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 01:41:54PM +0100, Martin Kraus wrote: On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 09:58:43PM -0600, Mark Allums wrote: Earlier, I wrote what I think was a confusing reply to this. In Debian Squeeze, there are two packages for qemu, one named qemu, the other qemu-kvm. Both are based on version 0.11.1 of qemu and both supposedly support kvm. Wll at one point, yes but http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/kvm.html [2009-12-31] kvm REMOVED from testing (Britney) My question is, why there are two apparently identical qemu packages. Which one should I use with kvm. Your answer is . qemu-kvm This is stable release of kvm. http://packages.qa.debian.org/q/qemu-kvm.html http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/qemu-kvm See /usr/share/doc/qemu-kvm/README.Debian for more information. Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100308132742.ga15...@osamu.debian.net
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 10:27:42PM +0900, Osamu Aoki wrote: On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 01:41:54PM +0100, Martin Kraus wrote: On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 09:58:43PM -0600, Mark Allums wrote: Earlier, I wrote what I think was a confusing reply to this. In Debian Squeeze, there are two packages for qemu, one named qemu, the other qemu-kvm. Both are based on version 0.11.1 of qemu and both supposedly support kvm. Wll at one point, yes but http://packages.qa.debian.org/k/kvm.html [2009-12-31] kvm REMOVED from testing (Britney) My question is, why there are two apparently identical qemu packages. Which one should I use with kvm. Your answer is . qemu-kvm This is stable release of kvm. http://packages.qa.debian.org/q/qemu-kvm.html http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/qemu-kvm See /usr/share/doc/qemu-kvm/README.Debian for more information. From what I've read the plan is to merge back into qemu instead of having a separate fork. I've found for example grub-firmware-qemu package, which works with qemu but I haven't been able to get it to start with qemu-kvm. If both I functionaly equivalent, I'd prefer to use qemu as the primary development of virtio etc will go probably in there, since it's not kvm specific. mk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100308134550.gd20...@finrod
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/8/2010 6:41 AM, Martin Kraus wrote: On Sun, Mar 07, 2010 at 09:58:43PM -0600, Mark Allums wrote: Earlier, I wrote what I think was a confusing reply to this. ... o QEMU is emulation. o Virtualbox is Full virtualization. o QEMU+KVM is a funny beast, it is paravirtualization with kernel virtualization, you need hardware CPU support for it o kqemu is a kernel module accelerator with kernel virtualization, no hardware support needed, but it gives poor speed. QEMU more-or-less has KVM built into it since about version 0.10. Wikipedia has a lot of articles about virtualization, so I would go there for more. Go with Virtualbox unless you have some special need. Hi. I think you misunderstood my question. I'm trying to switch from xen to kvm, because xen just doesn't work on that particular server. QEMU provides emulation for IO and uses KVM for memory/cpu virtualization. In Debian Squeeze, there are two packages for qemu, one named qemu, the other qemu-kvm. Both are based on version 0.11.1 of qemu and both supposedly support kvm. My question is, why there are two apparently identical qemu packages. Which one should I use with kvm. thanks mk This is a better question, and will get better replies. My replies were general, and you had something specific in mind. It pays to be specific. I can tell you about virt tech, though in my scatterbrained way, I will misuse the terminology. But, I am not as familiar with QEMU w.r.t. *Debian*. I should have let someone else answer. I still say, use Virtualbox instead. Mrk Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b95348a.5020...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 11:31:54AM -0600, Mark Allums wrote: This is a better question, and will get better replies. My replies were general, and you had something specific in mind. It pays to be specific. I can tell you about virt tech, though in my scatterbrained way, I will misuse the terminology. But, I am not as familiar with QEMU w.r.t. *Debian*. I should have let someone else answer. I still say, use Virtualbox instead. Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. This seems pretty specific to me. I have asked what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm for kvm virtualization. Both support kvm and both are based on qemu 0.11.1 so I wanted to know what is the difference. I'm not really sure that virtualbox is the right thing for a server. I'm not much sure about kvm+qemu either, but xen just keeps crashing so there isn't much I can do about it. mk -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100308210824.ga3...@finrod
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
Martin Kraus wrote: This seems pretty specific to me. I have asked what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm for kvm virtualization. Both support kvm and both are based on qemu 0.11.1 so I wanted to know what is the difference. I'm not really sure that virtualbox is the right thing for a server. I'm not much sure about kvm+qemu either, but xen just keeps crashing so there isn't much I can do about it. KVM is a solution, and a good one. Rather than using its own hypervisor software and a special guest to manage the domain, it uses the Linux kernel itself. The latter already provides a hell lot of subsystems relevant to hypervisor technology, which makes KVM really simpler in terms of complexity, thus arguably less prone to problems. Provided you're comfortable with Linux and that you trust its stability, KVM is probably your best solution. If not, then Xen is more independent and has its advantages too; their architectures are just different and inherently offer different things. More info relative to my last post: if you want to use KVM, you do *need* the modified qemu software provided by the kvm package (which really points to qemu-kvm). These changes are currently pushed upstream [1]. I hope it clears any ambiguity. I agree about VirtualBox, it clearly targets workstations (and it's good at it). I can only recommend Tim Jones' articles on IBM's DeveloperWorks site, they provide really good overviews on this subject (and others). Nothing to do with IBM, BTW, I just found they were quality stuff. [1] http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_Page -thib -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b958935.70...@stammed.net
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/8/2010 3:08 PM, Martin Kraus wrote: On Mon, Mar 08, 2010 at 11:31:54AM -0600, Mark Allums wrote: This is a better question, and will get better replies. My replies were general, and you had something specific in mind. It pays to be specific. I can tell you about virt tech, though in my scatterbrained way, I will misuse the terminology. But, I am not as familiar with QEMU w.r.t. *Debian*. I should have let someone else answer. I still say, use Virtualbox instead. Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. This seems pretty specific to me. I have asked what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm for kvm virtualization. Both support kvm and both are based on qemu 0.11.1 so I wanted to know what is the difference. I'm not really sure that virtualbox is the right thing for a server. I'm not much sure about kvm+qemu either, but xen just keeps crashing so there isn't much I can do about it. mk Sorry, there is some (more) confusion. I was referring to the original post, which seemed to me to be about a completely different topic. There is always vmware ESX; consider it. Have you used vbox? It is a less sophisticated product than some server virtualizations, but I have never had it crash. (I hate very much to mention it, but if Windows Server 2008 R2 is even of the remotest possibility, MS's Hyper-V works pretty well.) Are you committed to QEMU? Vserver kernels are specifically for server roles. In short, there are lots of choices for Debian beside QEMU. Consider them. qemu/kvm/qemu-kvm: I don't think there is a significant difference between the two packages anymore; you can choose which to use based on convenience rather than performance. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b95af75.2080...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
Mark Allums wrote: Sorry, there is some (more) confusion. I was referring to the original post, which seemed to me to be about a completely different topic. Are we reading the same original post? Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. I thought it was pretty clear. [...] In short, there are lots of choices for Debian beside QEMU. Consider them. qemu/kvm/qemu-kvm: I don't think there is a significant difference between the two packages anymore; you can choose which to use based on convenience rather than performance. Gee, don't add some more confusion :-) kvm is qemu-kvm Soon, qemu will include qemu-kvm code. So, in the end, qemu = qemu-kvm = kvm. Talking about Debian userspace utilities packages only, of course - using qemu without the kvm kernel subsystem will be different than using qemu alone. -thib -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b95b3a9.2050...@stammed.net
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/8/2010 5:33 PM, thib wrote: More info relative to my last post: if you want to use KVM, you do *need* the modified qemu software provided by the kvm package (which really points to qemu-kvm). These changes are currently pushed upstream [1]. I hope it clears any ambiguity. [1] http://www.linux-kvm.org/page/Main_Page I think that is what he wanted to know, and I'm glad I brought it back up when the topic appeared to die, because I made such a muddle of answering it. However, I myself am now failng to understand the difference between the two. Are you saying that one package is simply a meta- or virtual package pointing to the other, and that installing one installs the other? MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b95b472.8000...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
Mark Allums wrote: However, I myself am now failng to understand the difference between the two. Are you saying that one package is simply a meta- or virtual package pointing to the other, and that installing one installs the other? Exactly. In squeeze, kvm is still a virtual package provided by qemu-kvm [1]. In sid, it's already a dummy transitional package [2]. I guess the qemu and qemu-kvm package will eventually merge when the kvm specific code will be imported by qemu upstream (if it ever is, I actually haven't followed any discussion about that, just the note on the kvm project frontpage [3]). Again, this package only provides userspace utilities; the actual kvm subsystem code is in the mainstream kernel and thus should be included in any stock kernel. Well, that's my understanding of the situation anyway, I'm in no way involved with the development of these projects. -thib [1] http://packages.debian.org/squeeze/kvm [2] http://packages.debian.org/sid/kvm [3] http://www.linux-kvm.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b95b749.4000...@stammed.net
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/8/2010 8:37 PM, Mark Allums wrote: Are you saying that one package is simply a meta- or virtual package pointing to the other, and that installing one installs the other? Because I just tried that (in Squeeze), and the two are mutually exclusive. You can install one or the other, but not both, And the versioning numbers bear no resemblance (not that they should). MAA (Need more sleep) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b95b7b2.5040...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/4/2010 6:41 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Martin Kraus wrote: Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. thanks for clarification mk Earlier, I wrote what I think was a confusing reply to this. There are quite a few types of virtualization: o Emulation o Full o Paravirtualization o Kernel o Application o Container and quite a few more at least variations. Hypervisor plus Hardware Abstraction Layer plus Monitor plus multiple VMs is the current fashion for servers, and Xen will give you that. In Xen terms, the monitor is the dom0, and the multiple VMs are the domU's. o QEMU is emulation. o Virtualbox is Full virtualization. o QEMU+KVM is a funny beast, it is paravirtualization with kernel virtualization, you need hardware CPU support for it o kqemu is a kernel module accelerator with kernel virtualization, no hardware support needed, but it gives poor speed. QEMU more-or-less has KVM built into it since about version 0.10. Wikipedia has a lot of articles about virtualization, so I would go there for more. Mark Allums Go with Virtualbox unless you have some special need. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b9475f3.8020...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/7/2010 9:58 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 3/4/2010 6:41 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Martin Kraus wrote: Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. thanks for clarification mk Earlier, I wrote what I think was a confusing reply to this. There are quite a few types of virtualization: o Emulation o Full o Paravirtualization o Kernel o Application o Container and quite a few more at least variations. Hypervisor plus Hardware Abstraction Layer plus Monitor plus multiple VMs is the current fashion for servers, and Xen will give you that. In Xen terms, the monitor is the dom0, and the multiple VMs are the domU's. o QEMU is emulation. o Virtualbox is Full virtualization. o QEMU+KVM is a funny beast, it is paravirtualization with kernel virtualization, you need hardware CPU support for it o kqemu is a kernel module accelerator with kernel virtualization, no hardware support needed, but it gives poor speed. QEMU more-or-less has KVM built into it since about version 0.10. Wikipedia has a lot of articles about virtualization, so I would go there for more. Mark Allums Go with Virtualbox unless you have some special need. Oh, and Virtualbox was originally based on QEMU, and there is still a lot of QEMU code in it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b9477f5.1010...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/4/2010 6:41 PM, Mark Allums wrote: On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Martin Kraus wrote: Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. thanks for clarification mk Earlier, I wrote what I think was a confusing reply to this. [snippage] Oh, and Virtualbox was originally based on QEMU, and there is still a lot of QEMU code in it. Oh, and Xen paravirtualizizes lots of things. QEMU has most of the KVM stuff built in, these days. MAA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b947918.9090...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 22:07 -0600, Mark Allums wrote: Oh, and Virtualbox was originally based on QEMU, and there is still a lot of QEMU code in it. Interesting - does that pose any issues for the non-OSE Virtualbox, w.r.t. QEMU being GPL? Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1268023244.2157.1.ca...@diamond.lan.walnut.gen.nz
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/7/2010 10:40 PM, Richard Hector wrote: On Sun, 2010-03-07 at 22:07 -0600, Mark Allums wrote: Oh, and Virtualbox was originally based on QEMU, and there is still a lot of QEMU code in it. Interesting - does that pose any issues for the non-OSE Virtualbox, w.r.t. QEMU being GPL? Richard The non-OSE is only for specific bits, like USB support, which is not to my knowledge in QEMU, since it was added by Innotek or Sun. I think this is a legal matter, which I am not qualified to answer (and I haven't read anything about it.) I expect that Oracle will remove code from QEMU over time. I expect (and be delighted to be wrong about) that Sun and Oracle will fork VBox and close off the non-OSE version. This is pure speculation. Mark Allums -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b948f92.1080...@allums.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 5:49 PM, Martin Kraus lists...@wujiman.net wrote: Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. To run kvm, you need virtualization support in your processor. To test for this, run the following egrep '^flags.*(vmx|svm)' /proc/cpuinfo If there's output, you can run kvm. Formally and in Lenny, there were two packages: qemu and kvm. If your processor couldn't run kvm, you would install that and run qemu (and use module-assistant to compile install the qemu accelerator module). However, I believe that in Squeeze there is just one package: qemu-kvm and both kvm and qemu are just virtual packages. For more info, install qemu-kvm and read README.Debian.gz in /usr/share/doc/qemu-kvm. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ae6dd7d31003051801k547a3f89u3cae23c6068c9...@mail.gmail.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
Oops, correction: where my last post stated: ... If your processor couldn't run kvm, you would install that and run qemu ... I meant: ... If your processor couldn't run kvm, you would install and run qemu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ae6dd7d31003051804n5fc0953emb817c9e64f6b7...@mail.gmail.com
Re: qemu or qemu-kvm for kvm in squeeze
On 3/4/2010 4:49 PM, Martin Kraus wrote: Hi. I have been wondering what is the difference between qemu and qemu-kvm packages for kvm virtualization. Manual page in qemu packages shows, that it should be able to work with kvm. Uncle google is silent about this. thanks for clarification mk qemu by itself is full emulation. the kvm variant uses kernel virtualization. There is also an accelerator module variant, if you run into an issue that prevents you from running kvm. Just use Virtualbox if it's a desktop, and xen if it's a server. qemu by itself is slow; kvm has issues. The virtualization people are always arguing over which flavor of VM tech is best. It boils down to 1.)security and b.)hassle. I find I prefer more security, less hassle. Unless you are running a medium-to-big shop, you probably aren't worried about live migration and power density, you just want to run XP under Lenny. In that case, install virtualbox-ose and forget about whose hypervisor is better, or whatever. The only reason I can think of to give this any more thought than that is: either you are getting paid, or you are getting a grade. If you don't trust Virtualbox, VMWare has a free product. qemu is fairly stable, but I never heard of any real advantage it has over other virtualization implementations. vbox just keeps getting better and better. I hope Oracle's acquisition of Sun doesn't change that. xen is still immature, but it works well. You can try it out easily; it has a live CD. More hassle, but more interesting. I hope someone else adds to this, because I haven't really explained it in technical terms, and I'm too lazy to do the work now, but I would like to remind you that Google works really well, and last time I checked, Wikipedia was pretty well crammed with articles on virtualization. I seem to recall a chart comparing every vm implementation to every other implementation EVER. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4b90534a.2020...@allums.com
